(Ep. 62) Judging Yourself: The Hidden Root of Judging Others

What if the harsh way you judge other people is really a mirror of the way you quietly judge yourself?

In this episode of Triggered & True, Laura Duncan and co-host Brian Freise take on judgment — and the surprising place it comes from. 

Starting with Matthew 7 ("judge not, that you be not judged") and reading it with the word "condemn" in place of "judge," they draw a crucial distinction most of us blur: the difference between the everyday wise judgments we're meant to make and the shaming, condemning judgment that quietly eats at us. And they trace that condemning judgment back to its hidden root: how we see ourselves.

Laura and Brian unpack why harsh judgment comes from the triggered child brain — the amygdala, which can only see what's right in front of it — rather than the sophisticated adult brain that can hold perspective and compassion. 

They land on a line that reframes the whole thing: "Heal the pain, and the shaming judgment ends, and true wisdom judgment begins." 

Along the way they navigate the cultural over-correction (from a harsh past that judged everything to a present that says you're not allowed to judge anything), why "what you do matters, but who you are matters more" holds both grace and real consequences, and how genuine justice actually flows from being okay — clear-minded, tenderhearted, at peace — not from being so triggered that all we can do is condemn.

In this episode: 

🔹 Matthew 7 revisited: the difference between "judge" and "condemn," and why it matters 

🔹 Why condemning judgment comes from the triggered child brain, not the wise adult brain 

🔹 "Heal the pain, and the judgment ceases" — how self-judgment fuels the way we judge others 

🔹 The cultural "both ditches": from judging everything to being told to judge nothing 

🔹 Why real justice flows from being okay — not from a triggered, condemning place

📩 Get your free Weekly Dose of Compassion — two short notes in your inbox every week. One to speak over yourself. One from Laura: https://www.lauraduncan.com/pl/2148814868

🔗 Learn more:

https://triggeredandtrue.com

https://lauraduncan.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Triggered and True. Laura, you're looking very summery today.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I am very summery today. I'm sure I'm sure we're having cool weather here. It's only like 96 today.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Oh wow. Yeah, that's that's a that's a cool front for Reading.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

115 today.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

We're having cool weather too, but unfortunately, um in the Chicagoland area, a bunch of the cool the cold front brought a bunch of uh smoke to our area from wildfires in Canada. So it's kind of reading-ish today. So have you had smoke smoke very bad yet this summer?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

No, we've only had like one fire and it wasn't that bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Well, good, good. That's wonderful to hear. Um, so today's topic is uh the title of today's episode is Judging Yourself, the hidden root of judging others.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

So I think sounds exciting.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah, well, I think you might have to think about it for a second too.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Judging yourself, judging yourself, the hidden root of judging others.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Now, if that makes absolutely no sense to you, that's fine. Because by the end of the episode, we're gonna hope it makes sense. Okay. So I was gonna start off by reading a very popular uh Bible verse from uh Matthew 7 that talks about this topic. That um, and we're gonna kind of break that down a little bit and use that as kind of an intro into this topic. Sound good to you, Laura?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Sounds great. Let's intro.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Laura, do you have a choice? Or or am I just gonna do what I'm gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I sometimes just do what I'm gonna do. Um and then she just gives me the evil eye if I have this. No, I she doesn't have an evil eye. Laura does not have an evil eye. All right, so reading this uh from Matthew 7, verse 1, it says, Judge not that you be not judged, for with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. So I'm gonna read it one more time. Judge not that you be not judged, for with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Now, I feel like this verse gets misused a lot. Um, and I think how it gets misused is, you know, someone's like, you know, stop judging me, or you know, like it's almost used in a way of uh tattletale.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Like you're doing that again, you know. And I think uh the reality is though, I I think part of the misunderstanding around the verse is that we use the word judge in a lot of different ways in our English language. So we are all making judgments all the time. You know, as parents, I'm making judgments of do I want my child to go stay at this person's house? Yeah, you know, do I want my child to get into the car with this person? Um as an employer, I'm making judgments. Is this person going to be a good employee? Do I want to hire them? Or should I fire them if they are an employee? Those are all judgments.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

And I really think uh if you do a word study on the word judge, you know, one of the other words that you could put in there is condemn. And I think if you put the word condemn in there in the place of judge, in our English language anyway, I think it gets truer to the heart potentially of what uh you know Jesus means by saying this. So I'm gonna do that. So I'm just gonna read it using the word condemn. So condemn not that you be not condemned. For with the condemnation you pronounce, you will be condemned. And with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. So condemnation has much more of a it's more weighty and it's more, it has like this eternal feeling to it, like you're like damn damning someone. Yes, and that that there's kind of all of that going on. So I also historically had read this uh passage as though, man, I better not have condemnation towards others because then God is gonna have condemnation towards me.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

But just recently when I read it, I was like, wait a second, who's doing the condemning?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

I kind of started to see that potentially this verse is illustrating that I'm on both sides of this coin.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I'm doing the condemning of others, and I'm in turn condemning myself. So um, this leads me to a something I found in my notes from our one-on-one sessions all those years ago. And you said that I will eventually treat other people the way that I treat myself.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

The trigger will trip and I will take it out on others. So maybe expound on that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yeah. Um, so when we are judging ourselves, we're going to be seen through that lens. And so we're actually seeing others in the same way. That's why coincidentally, a lot of times what other people are judging others for, what people are judging other people for is actually something they struggle with or they have struggled with, you know, and but because we're treating ourselves in judgment or condemnation, um, we're condemning ourselves in it, we're going to now turn that towards someone else, kind of like a hot potato thing, you know, like I don't want to feel this pain, I don't want to feel whatever way I'm judging myself. And so I'm going to displace it on someone else. You know, so many times, you know, I think I've said this in the past, but you know, when you have like a soapbox that you're on and you're like, you know, this is the only way and this is the right way. And if anyone else thinks differently, then they're condemned because we actually have pain connected to that soapbox. So we're constantly filtering how we judge others through how we've judged ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Hmm. Yeah, you've definitely talked to me. I remember talking about the soapbox and how, like, if people can catch themselves in the moment, whenever they get on that soapbox, it's a signal to look internally.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Even if that exact thing isn't it, it's the judgment around it. You know what I mean? So even if you've never done the thing you're judging someone for, you're still have something internal that has pain attached to it that is not seeing people through love judgment. You're seeing people through condemning judgment.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And you you talk about how this also connects to the knowledge of good and evil. So, can you share a little bit on that?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah. So the knowledge of good and evil is based um on what we do. But in the garden, it became personal. Adam and Eve believed that they were evil. Remember how that was the first one of the that that was what God came to them in that moment, which I've said before that, like if my kids just made such a huge mistake as they did, I don't think this would be my first thought. I would be like, What were you thinking? I told you not to. I can't believe you did this.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Well, your old self.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Before the compassion method. Yes, no, exactly. Oh, yeah, no, totally. It would have been the compassion method.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Oh, no, totally, because I was very, very connected to what you do is who you are without knowing it. And so I would have been judging them, not just judging that they ate the fruit, I'd be judging them. I would be thinking that there was something wrong and bad with them, which is shame. And so his first God's first thing that he says to them, of all the things you could say, his opening statement is who told you you were evil? That was his biggest concern, because it became their identity. It became how they separated from God, it became how they saw themselves. So ultimately, how we see ourselves is also how we're gonna judge ourselves. It is it is okay to judge behavior. You know, we have judges, we go to court, I steal something, I go before a judge, the judge says, This is your because you stole this, this is your consequence. But I'm not a thief, I stole something, and we can judge what people do. That's actually okay to judge what people do. But the problem is the judgment that we're talking about, the condemnation that we're talking about, it turns from judging a behavior, an action, to judging who the person is. So we're actually in our judgment, that's why I like that you use the word condemn, we're actually condemning God's creation. We're condemning the person. We're saying that person is evil. Think about whenever we condemn, whenever we judge, we are actually saying that person's evil. So now we're seeing through the knowledge of good and evil. We're seeing the person. And that's the devastation of shame is that shame says what you do is who you are. And that's what we usually cannot separate when we pass judgment.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah, I'm also being reminded right now of the verse, the power of life and death is in the tongue.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yep. So we are literally, and and this is the thing, it's it's so much bigger. If it was just you did something wrong, it's it's external. But you are wrong, you are evil, you are what you did is personal.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

You know, I bet you a lot of people listening have never thought of when they're thinking harshly about someone. Or judging someone.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

And I've heard people say they're just they're just a bad person.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I've heard them say like things much worse than that. Like they're just they're just a worthless piece of you know, and stuff like that. And I'm like, and now that I know, like from working with you, I know like, okay, well, that's what you think of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Because that's your internal dialogue about yourself. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Because it's connected to our trigger. Our judgment and a trigger are connected. So I have a wound that causes me to react and turn it back onto myself. And that's why there's never any change. That's why behaviors very often don't change.

unknown 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Because the person is not supported, they're condemned. If the person's supported, their behaviors change. If the person's seen for who they are, I always talk to couples. Just yesterday, I talked to a couple and with in reinforcing that when you see who that person is, it's one of the biggest gifts you can give them. They can be making mistakes and saying the wrong thing and doing the wrong thing. But when you hold fast, you hold steady in seeing who they are and are able to separate what they're doing and who they are, it's a powerful place to be in. And I've seen time and time again, when a spouse is able to still see who that person is, regardless of what they're doing, the behavior almost always follows.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Well, and I think for me, it helps me to see the little, the little side of them.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

So if it's uh if it's my spouse, it I can see the little girl that's really scared.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Because that's really now that she's not a little girl, she's a grown adult, and her and her uh scares coming out really, really ugly sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Really adult-like.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Really adult-like and scary.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

I know I laughed so hard just yesterday again. I was working with a client and she was really adamant that um her behavior was not child behavior, it was adult behavior. And then at the end of the um session, she starts giggling and sounds like actually kind of like a kid, you know, starts giggling and she goes, I don't think I was being very much of an adult, was I? And it made me laugh so hard because she was like adamant. She's like, no, like this behavior, this reaction, this trigger was justified. Was justified, exactly. Like this is an adult thing. This has nothing to do with my child self, but it always does because the trigger is connected to our amygdala, which is our child brain, our primal brain. And that's where we're functioning from in that moment. Again, I keep reinforcing the people, your adults don't think like that. Adults have the luxury and the benefit of a sophisticated brain to be able to reason, to see perspective, to be able to observe, to be able to have understanding. And our amygdala, our child brain doesn't have that, it's not developed, can't see like that. It can only see what's right in front of you. And that's where judgment comes from. It comes from um self-judgment and how we judge others in a triggered state, comes from the amygdala. And it actually reminds me of that story in the Bible when um Solomon, right? Where they come to with the baby and they're like, Whose baby is it?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Whose baby is it?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

And yeah, and then he says, you know, you know, we're gonna cut it. We're gonna cut it in half. I was I remember reading that when I was like eight years old, being like, Whoa, this is intense. The Bible actually is really intense. We're gonna like cut the baby in half, and then the real mom said, No, don't, and gave, you know, gave the baby. And so that exposed what was going on. And the connection that I'm making with that story is the heart behind it will be connected to a sophisticated brain that was able to love that baby enough to not respond from the reaction from the child brain, but was able to react from the adult brain to be able to see that perspective.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Well, and I think, oh, before I go there, let's one other thing I read in my notes is uh something you shared with me all those years ago. You said when we experience pain, we invite judgment. And we were actually talking about somebody specifically that I was having a hard time with, or it was actually an institution. So I am intentionally and unintentionally judging them. And you said, heal the pain and the judgment cease.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah. And the second part of it is you heal the pain and the shaming judgment ends and true wisdom judgment begins. Because like you said, we're making judgments all day long that are actually meant to protect and to bring righteousness and to bring um safety and to bring, you know, the the right outcome, or not the right outcome, but what how we want things to go. Like, for example, like with our kids and things like that. We are supposed to judge.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah, and I think what you said there is really good because there's an element in culture, I think maybe today more so. You know, so go back 50, 60 years ago, parenting things were very harsh. We were in that side of the ditch, I think, of being overly harsh. And potentially in today's time, we're maybe have crossed over the road. And as humanity, we have a hard time staying on the road. We tend to get in one ditch or the other. So we're now maybe more in the ditch of you know, where we are to the point where we don't want to judge anything, you know, because it's all raw, it's all bad.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, no one's allowed to judge anything, and if you do, you're a horrible person, even kind of like that scripture, like you know, you're that you first read, you know, like you're gonna be condemned because you're having judgment, but we don't know the difference. And then we actually need to have righteous judgment.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Right, right. And this is a this is a thing that I've I've heard this explained different ways, and you explain it as you know, what you do matters, but who you are matters more.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

So what we do does matter.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

It does, you know, there's no way around that. We what we do has consequences, it matters.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

So our triggered reactions, even though we know they're coming from pain, we can have compassion, we can have empathy, but like there's consequences for that stuff, okay?

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

So that's the way you say it. I heard a pastor, uh pastor named Rick Jo uh Rick Joyner, he says it like this he says, Um, you must know the kindness and the severity of the Lord, yeah, or you will fall into deception.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah. And so, and you know, God disciplines those that he loves. But the thing is, he doesn't do it through shame. No, he doesn't do it through uh triggered judgment, he doesn't do it through pain, he does it through love. So if you actually took like the love chapter in the Bible and that was your preface for judgment, is that the right word? I think so. That's what you did before you judged. Yeah, um, sorry, my mind was like, is that weird? You know how you spell words sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

There's that, there's that, there's totally that, and that's beautiful. But in your in your framing, if you're okay, yeah, if you're clear-minded, yep, tender hearted, and at peace, you are living the love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13. You're embodying love is patient, love is kind, it's long suffering. So you're judging that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

You're doing to bring it back to what I was saying, because I don't think I completely uh was clear on what I was saying about Solomon with the baby and everything like that. The when you can be able to um when we're kind of exposed, and that's not just exposed for eat for our uh negative things that we do, but also for the positive things that we do, it exposes the heart. So if love is in the heart, it exposes it.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

And that is what's so important because how many people, when they are judging someone, are judging from love.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Right. Well, I think another way to put this is that if you're judging or you're you're doing what we're what we have to do for discipline's sake and all these other things, is it more about me?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

And almost always because what Romans or what Matthew 7, when I read at the beginning, that's all about me. Yes, it's my pain getting displaced on someone else. Yes, okay. Could could it be justifiable? Well, sure. They might have done something, okay? Yeah, all right. So there's always probably there's usually always something, right? You know, so and then and then, like you've talked about, the more justifiable it is, the harder it is to catch. Yeah, you know, but am I doing it from a place of being clear-minded, tenderhearted in that piece?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Because if I'm not, it's actually very selfish. Yes, it's about me, it's not about them.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

And what I've found, you know how you know, we have like distinct things, like you know, that we all know, like this is good and this is bad, but there's a lot of things that we have judgment on that aren't always even wrong. They're wrong to us.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

They we think they're wrong, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yes, exactly. They're wrong to us because of our lens and our trigger the way we were raised or the way we were raised, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yes, what people spend so many of the what people spend money on, you know. Yes, they took a lavish vacation, they're irresponsible and exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

We have all these judgments that we're having that are not even based on like true rights reality, true right or wrong. Exactly. I'd say that's actually more often than not.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Yeah, then when it's legitimate, where everyone would agree that's a crime, you know, that's a criminal offense. That's obviously wrong.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yes, but we're judging on the daily from a triggered place from the things that are our opinion.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Oh, look at the way they discipline their kids. Yes, exactly. Look at the way um they spend their yeah, they spend their money and their money.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

I mean, you can tell you can tell I got triggers around money. I keep reading up.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Well, I know. I always think it's so funny because um, you know, a lot of pastors in the last, you know, 20 years have become more wealthy by traveling and writing books and doing all those things. And so we have a lot of wealthy pastors. Now they're buying sports cars. And we have a church, you know, here in Reading that um the main pastors both got like sports cars. And whenever I'm in the community, like the first thing anyone says is, How dare they? They're pastors, you know, they're not humble, they're not doing the Lord's work. They have um, they bought a sports car, and I laugh about it because they earn their money.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

One of our pastors doesn't even take a salary, he earns all his money through his books and his traveling and everything like that. He doesn't even take a salary from the church, but nobody knows that. Nobody knows his extraordinary generosity, nobody sees any of that. They just go, he is a sports car, so he is bad.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, right. Yeah, and those are things where there's no there's no clear right and wrong, and you're just that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

But we have these adamant triggers about it. Why does it bother us if a pastor has a sports car? Why does that bother us?

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Mm-hmm. Yo, I know I like I've had those judgments, not this particular situation, but you're talking about, but I've had those judgments of others about how they spend their money, and it's because money is a protector.

unknown 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Because money, if you have money, it keeps bad things away. You know what I'm saying? And if you spend it frivolous, and if we spend it frivolously, there's also this thing of like, I always would think, like, oh, bad things are gonna come. Yeah, I made a mistake with money, a mistake, quote unquote mistake.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Like, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

So

SPEAKER_01 22:28

But then I always laugh about that because you could have all the money in the world and the economy could crash and bad things can happen.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

But we the money, the money isn't going to keep a health problem away and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

But again, you hit you know hit it on the nose, it's because it's a protector, whether it's money, whether it's um our our belief about right or wrong is a protector.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

If I can make sure I'm always say deciding who's right, who's wrong, who's right, who's wrong, who are the bad people, who are the good people. And if I can always know that, I'm not gonna get hurt. And if I can put the bad people far away from me, and I can only keep the good people close, I'll be okay. But guess what? The pain is already within us. No matter how much we judge who's good and who's bad, we're not gonna be able to get away from what's really hurting us. That hidden root of how we actually judge ourselves, treat ourselves. And one thing that I noticed so strongly is self-talk. Your self-talk will show you your self-judgment, or your shame.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Shame and judgment are like two sides of the same coin, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, pay attention. A lot of times when working with clients, I'm like, whose voice is that? I believe we would never judge people if we knew from the heart and we we were okay, like you said, clear-minded, tender hearted at peace, we'd have eyes to see.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Well, and from that place of being clear-minded, tender hearted at peace, the Bible also says it's the kindness of the Lord that leads us to repentance.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Kindness.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

I know everyone's like, We're gonna go in, clear-minded, tender hearted at peace, embodying, you know, First Corinthians 13, and love is patient and kind.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

We're more hoping for like the lightning to come down and strike, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So, well, it's interesting how there's this, there's that tension between the kindness and the severity of the Lord. And I think we're really cutting through that. So we're we're helping it, we're helping us properly frame that. And I love how that is translated in the message Bible. I just want to read this. It's Romans 11:22 in the message Bible. It says, make sure you stay alert to these qualities of gentle kindness and ruthless severity that exist side by side in God. Gentle kindness, side by side, ruthless severity. That ruthless severity is to protect us.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I think that's the ultimate mama bear, you know. Oh, the mama bear, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

And and it feels like it's coming at us, but it's actually God protecting us from that because it's gonna hurt us, and it's designed to lead to repentance.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

So if we don't ever judge or ever make judgments and discipline those situations, we are not helping lead people to repentance.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

No, we're not. We're keeping people actually stuck in it. Repentance is the doorway out, but it starts with us.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

We gotta do the hard work first.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Exactly. 100%. And I look at judgment a lot like forgiveness. When we judge others, we hurt ourselves. When we say an unforgiveness, we hurt ourselves. When you think of someone in your mind that's a difficult person for you, it releases cortisone into your system. A fight or flight comes up, you feel scared or you feel angry, or you feel something connected to that person. And so we end up actually hurting ourselves by staying in that cycle of unforgiveness. So forgiveness is first for us and then for others. Judgment is the same. Judgment, when we judge from our pain, it hurts us. It causes us to become bit bitter or resentful. So it's the same thing. When we judge others, we're actually hurting ourselves because ultimately we're judging ourselves in that same way.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

I heard this thing that you're talking about once described as unforgiveness is like drinking poison and hoping the other person gets sick.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yep. And that's the same thing. Judging others, hoping that they feel that judgment, but it's actually poison. It's hurting. Judgment's poison, but unforgiveness is poison.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

And in our sessions, one of the other things we talked about was some harsh judgment I had towards myself, towards how I parented my children. And in one thing you said that was really kind of eye-opening, you said, in my judgment of myself, I am not coming near my children in their pain.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

It blocks me from being with them.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Exactly. And that's the same for all. We cannot, so compassion is being with a person in their pain. But we cannot be with another person. We can actually cannot give true compassion if we're in judgment self or others.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

So a lot of times what I'll say is, you know, people go, well, I I don't judge myself like that. I'm judging them because they're doing X, Y, or Z. And I always say, like, whatever bothers you about somebody else, whatever you judge about somebody else, figure out.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

If it takes you to a triggered place.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Exactly. No, if you're like so upset, like, oh my God, I'm just if you're so triggered in that, it's about you every single time. Take care of that. And then you can be okay to actually bring the love of discipline, bring the love of judgment that comes from our true self.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

You know, and the the hard thing is, and I I would say I want to err towards the size of in my judgment of myself and in the not wanting to be, you know, too harsh on other people. I think I probably would tend to be the one that would not want to confront the issue if it's with a loved one. And then I'd be like, and then now I'm thinking, like, oh, I gotta be perfectly oh, perfectly clear-minded to heart and peace. I'm like, no, wait a second. This is planet Earth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I ain't never gonna be perfectly clear-minded to your heart or net piece. But it's like, I love how you put it on a scale. Like, okay, it was uh it was a level nine trigger. You worked your heart exercise, you did the remote control, you were you had like a nine level of trigment and j uh thinking of judgment or upset about what these people were doing, how they were spending their money or whatever it was, you know. And you worked the process and now you're uh four. You know, you're not a zero, you're not a one.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Totally, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

But you're at a place where now you can maybe speak truth in love.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yes, exactly. Even if you can't do it 100%, you're doing it a lot more than you could before. I agree with you, and that actually is interesting. Um, that reminded me of, you know, there's people that like don't want to ever judge at all.

unknown 29:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

They're swinging the pendulum the other side. So we have like the people that thrive that feels so good when they're judging because you know it feels like it protects them. But then we have the other side of the pendulum, the other side of however you said it, the the ditch pendulum, yeah. The pendulum, yeah, it swings the other side, but we're not gonna judge anyone ever.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

And a lot of times that comes from our own personal shame, and it's still personal judgment that we're scared of being judged, so we're not gonna judge anyone.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Everyone's okay. You know where it is, it's like, well, I've done bad things too.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

How can I, how can I put them in their bad behaviors, but I've done bad things too. And I'm like, well, we all have.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yes, exactly. And so we end up avoiding it because of shame that we don't want to be found out, you know, the whole imposter thing. We don't be want to be found out. So it's like a a false form of being okay that says, I'm not gonna judge anyone to protect me from how I really feel about myself. So it's still self-judgment and the passivity of not saying anything.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

So it can be both.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

That's that honestly is a bit where our culture is gone. I feel like that is a little bit stronger.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

I think we have learned a little bit the harshness of judgment. So we're saying, okay, we don't want to go into that harshness, but now anything goes.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

But then that's chaos.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah, that's chaos. And that's that's not leading anybody to a good place.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

And and it's still, guess what, guess who it's still all about? Ourself. Ourself.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yep, exactly. We're still trying to help ourselves by having no opinion and no thought and no anything about another person is still about ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

The more I work this process, Laura, the more it just is like not working your triggers. When I say working your triggers, remote control exercise, work through the process is so unbelievably selfish.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

It really is. And the irony is a lot of times one of the biggest complaints people have about the compassion method is it's selfish.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Oh man, I I know better. I it took me maybe you know, six years, seven years of being in it to realize this that like not doing the compassion method is the most selfish thing you can do because you're dumping your pain all around on other people. You're yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

I was with a mom of five kids yesterday, and when I started out with you have to take care of you, she goes, it just still feels so selfish. I have five kids, they all need me. My spouse needs me. That feels so selfish. Well, you ain't got nothing to give if you don't take care of you. Exactly. I said no.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

All you got is a big old box of eh.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Yeah, it's like a it's a false form of selflessness because you're not thriving, you're barely functioning, you're exhausted. That was one of her biggest things. I'm exhausted. I'm like, you're exhausted because you're actually not taking care of you. If you were taking care of you, you'd have the energy to raise your family, not selfish at all.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

I'd be able to be with my kids in their pain.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yes, exactly. But we're so busy doing that we're not able to actually be with.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Oh, this is not completely off topic, but a little bit. But I have this awesome example of being with that I wanted to share.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

And I want to give a shout out to my son-in-law. Okay. So, so my daughter just had baby number two. So she has two, two under two now.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

And actually two under uh 1.25 because they're close. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah, that's really close.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah. So uh her oldest is um when my wife and I were there, we gave her a nickname. FTJ. Bull-time job.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

That's the oldest.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

That's the one-year-old. She is crazy. She is just wild. She she like is bold and loud and just I love it. She's a comedian. She's all of these things like wrapped into one. And she is a lot of work. Like, yeah, you can't take your eye off her. Yeah, you just can't. Like, I remember like I was washing dishes. I was there's a period I was alone with her. I was washing dishes. I turned my head for like a second. I'm like, I can't do that. I gotta, I gotta wash the dishes with my head turned back, you know, watching her. But uh, so anyway, she got really, really kind of over the top. And you know, and then the the newborns in the house and all that other stuff. So my son-in-law took her upstairs into her bedroom, turned the lights down low, and just sat with her in the bedroom, and she slowly came back down, and he just kind of he took he he limited the amount of toys, like there's a more limited amount of toys, there's still more limited amount of stimulus, and he just stayed with her until she came back down. Wow, because and then and then uh he was talking to to my wife about like you know, how do you discipline a one-year-old? Like, you know, and he talked about how he was disciplined as a kid, and he's like, Well, I know that's not necessarily right, and how we did it as us wasn't necessarily right. My wife's like, No, what you just did with her was perfect, you know, you were with you were able to be with her. Wow, you know, and that when I saw that quote about how my judgment of myself was blocking me from being with my kids in their pain, you know, yeah, because he could have said, I mean, I need to get her to stop, which would probably actually intensify those things, but instead he was able to be with her, and that actually led her to repentance, that led her to actually as a one-year-old can, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:28

You know, you know what I mean? But no, but like, but it does though, because it because she was dysregulated and he was able to help that. And if you really think about it, like most of our behaviors are dysregulated moments that if someone was with us instead of judging us from shame, we would actually be able to be helped. And I feel like that is such a good example. I actually don't think that's off subject at all.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, no, I I don't I don't think so. And I mean, I'll never forget it that you know, and and and um yeah, how powerful that was. That was huge.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, that's very inspiring and amazing that he's able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

And sometimes I think I as a parent, and you helped me see this too in a different topic, but like sometimes when we get scared, we have to try to get big. Like when we feel really small, we have to get big. So, like some people in their discipline are over get really, really loud.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

And now I understand from working with you that that has to do with hey, I'm really scared, I feel really little, but if I get loud, yeah, I I I feel big. Yes, but in a very, very, very unhealthy way.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

You're just triggered big, you know?

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yeah, you're triggered big, exactly. And with a one-year-old, that's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

No, gosh, no, yeah, yeah. And and then also, like with a one-year-old, you've you talk about this a lot. A one-year-old needs their parent with a capital N to help them regulate.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

And if you can't be with your child, that's gonna be tough because they need you to be there with a capital N.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yes, exactly. And to bring it back to the judgment thing, you know, most parents are feeling self-judgment as a parent.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

So they're overreacting, over, like you said, over getting it.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

What are the what's everybody thinking of me? My kid's throwing a fit. They must think I'm a horrible parent.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

And you see that a lot like in the grocery stores where a parent usually can handle it really well, but then they're in a grocery store and everyone's looking, and that judgment of I'm I'm a terrible parent gets so big that they try to squash the child.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

They get big with it.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yep, they try they try to get big because they're feeling so much judgment on them that they're trying to stop that, to stop the pain of how they're judging themselves. I think parenting is one of the number one ways that we judge ourselves because it's so outside of our control many times. And then we're just trying to do whatever we think we're supposed to be doing without being able to actually connect.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Well, and we we're very connected to the performance of our children. And if they're not performing, you know, then we're must not be a good parent.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah. Man, I feel sorry for my kids. I I wish if I'd have known some of this stuff now, you know, but uh I know.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

I feel especially my older two, because they got the least amount of the compassion method and they got the most amount of me feeling frantic in it and doing whatever I thought I was supposed to do. I totally agree. I know everything can be healed, and I know they can go back and have gift givers come in and be what we couldn't be, but it is sad. There's a grief to it. Yeah, without judgment, without condemnation, we can actually grieve. I didn't know what I didn't know. And I'm sad I wasn't able to be with them, like your son-in-law was able to be.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

You know, on the self-judgment, one of the things that was really helpful that you said to me a long time ago, and it's it I I I remind myself of it often. You said uh agree with your adversary quickly. You know, when that when that self-judgment comes up, it's like, yeah, you're right, I wasn't able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah. But the more regret we live in, the more we have it's past.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

So my script, my script is yeah, yeah, I wasn't able to do that. I was doing the best I could with what I knew. Yeah, there's more to my story.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

That's not who I am. And then if I really need to, I can go back to the how am I seen words, which are still on my on my desk right over there.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

And reinforce this is who I am, even if I wasn't doing it, this is who I am.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

And one of those words on there is kind, you know, one of those words on there is kind, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Do you see yourself um with your I know she's only one, but do you see yourself with your grandkids being able to see them a little bit differently?

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah, especially as they get a little bit older and you can start to see their personality, like with like okay, like there's there's her personality. And yeah, it's a little hard when they're just babies, and honestly, like for me, like none of her behavior triggers me. It's just so because I'm not around, I'm not they live unfortunately a long ways away. So I'm not around them enough. So I don't get triggered by it. But if I was in it with it day in, day out, I'm sure it would get triggering, you know. But right now it's just cute as I'll get out, you know. I know. So I always, you know, I'm just like, but but yeah, if I was with if I was in the middle of it every day, I mean, uh after a while, the cuteness of it sometimes is gonna wear off. Exactly. So I do have a piece of homework for everyone as we conclude today. And I think that piece of homework is to uh, you know, we talk about you know going to your trigger and doing the remote control exercise and so on and so forth. What so what I want everyone to do is to take a moment and just think through their life, recent, maybe even not so recent, of someone that they have had some very harsh feelings towards.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

You know, someone it could be uh co-worker, a relative, uh a spouse. It could be anybody that you've had some really, really harsh feelings towards.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

And also keep in mind it can be someone you directly know, but it could be a people group, oh yeah, government, it could be something that actually day in, day out.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Well, I mean, like the IRS and stuff, but no, exactly. Yeah, that's but that's acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

So we can go Yeah, of course, yeah. That's just right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Anyway, that but anyway, so yeah, someone that yeah, that you've had someone or some entity or yeah, whatever, yeah, that you've had that and and dare to consider that there's something more than meets the eye, and it's an opportunity to look into your heart, yeah, and just think, okay, I'm judging their behavior or their actions really harshly or this group's actions really harshly. You know, what's what's going on inside of me? What's my self-talk?

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah. And reminding also that being okay when you think about that person or that entity. Are you clear-minded? Are you tenderhearted? Are you at peace with each of those as you're connecting?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Absolutely. So yeah, homework.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah, I think it's good because a lot of times we have these people that are constantly kind of in the back of our mind. And it can be on a daily basis or a weekly basis that we're constantly thinking about them and it's wearing on us. And it's this judgment that's on autopilot, kind of.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

And look and see, look into my heart and identify. And I think identify with a soft emotion.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah. Yeah. Be able to get soft in it. And I know that feels so contrary when you're all big that this is just wrong. That's people a lot of times say it's just wrong.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Well, trying to soft. And the other thing is it might be. We're not saying it's not wrong, people. We're not saying that it probably is wrong. There's a good chance that whatever you're judging, maybe it is wrong, maybe it isn't, but it could be wrong.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

But being able to see how it connects to your trigger and how it connects to your self-judgment.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah. Because we we we want to learn to live in a world where things are wrong, because in this world there are a lot of things that are wrong.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

But being able to do it from a place of okay, because that's when we're gonna see true justice come. Justice comes from being okay, from peace, not from being so triggered that we're not able to actually do justice. We're only able to do judgment.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

And that we can't be with. Yeah. Good deal. Well, we covered some amazing ground today, Laura. So thank you for sharing all of this wonderful wisdom and uh compassion that's inside of you with all of us. It's been uh it's been a blessing. So thank you everyone for taking the time to listen. And make sure you do your homework.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Okay, bye, everyone. Bye bye.