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This wine news we:
Follow us on instagram @winewithmegandmel
Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel. We are here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Mel Gilchrist, joined by Master of Wine Meg Brotman, and welcome back to another wine news episode. I know they're happening thick and fast now. There's a lot of news and there is a lot of news. There's so much for us to talk about. So to quickly cover off what we are going to do today, we're going to cover Billy's going to add something.
Speaker 1:Yes. So the Real Review has laid out their top wineries list. We have Accolade offering to buy out wineries, great Growers. We have a chat with Nick Ryan who is taking over the Australian wine column and, lastly, we are going to talk to the CEO of Australian Grape and Wine about China reopening. Hi everyone, this is Mel from the future. I was just doing some editing and realized that the beautiful baby Billy did just a little bit too much babbling while we were discussing accolade offering to buy out growers. So what I've done is I've cut it from the episode. It might be just a tad too annoying for you if you're listening in the car, but if you are interested and you don't mind the sound of a baby talking away, then what you can do is head to our Instagram. So I'm going to put it up as a reel so that way you can still get the information. Just head to our Instagram. Back to the show. Meg, let's go into it. Reel review top wineries. I mean, does this mean much to you?
Speaker 2:There are 394 top wineries. I scrolled to the bottom of the list.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot.
Speaker 2:The thing is it doesn't mean anything. You have to submit your own samples. They have a proprietorial algorithm which is all fine for ranking, so it doesn't involve personal opinion. So no one judge says oh, blah, blah, blah, they tasted 10,000 wines, so for 394 wineries. I mean, what's that? Is that like 30 wines each winery? I don't know. But you have to submit the wines.
Speaker 2:So it's not the top 394 wineries in Australia, it's the top 394 wineries that have submitted and I would contend maybe there are only 394 wineries that have contended and they've entered and have ranked them all.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, to be fair, though, they're not just like a list of all of them. Like they're in order.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rob Dolan got one, but I don't even know where, because when you get the certificate I don't know where Top 100 is meant to be.
Speaker 1:Quite good, top 100 is meant to be where it's at. But, number one, yara Yaring. They got it. Yeah, no surprise, they got it in 2021 as well. But you know like we wonder how relevant it is. But it works. Consumers look, they respond, they buy. So it's definitely something that people want, but I would contend that people were buying Yarra Yearing anyway.
Speaker 2:Do you have to be told? Or number one winery. I mean Sarah Coe is doing an amazing, amazing job and Yarra Yearing's wines are absolutely outstanding, extraordinary across the board.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, we're the biggest fans.
Speaker 2:Everything she touches she turns to gold plus her video cultural team. So it's not just a one-person show, it's a whole team, and she definitely shouts that from the rooftop.
Speaker 1:So look, yara Yearing, though congratulations Absolutely. We are going to have Sarah on the podcast in the next few weeks, because she's an absolute legend and we love her wines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she's a very nice woman as well, yeah.
Speaker 3:But I wonder if she's sick of getting all these awards.
Speaker 2:I mean it must be exhausting. It must be exhausting, poor Sarah. Too many awards. She did crack Krug and had some look like smoked salmon blini with a little bit of caviar on top and she posted it either on her personal Instagram. That wouldn't have been on Yarra Yarrings because she just posted some Smoko's are better than others. That's awesome. For those of you who don't know, smoko is morning tea in Australia. In Australia.
Speaker 1:We are charging in Norway at the moment. We're like the number 14 food podcast in Norway.
Speaker 2:Really. Yeah, that's because they have to pay enormous prices for their wine. Was it Norway, where they all camped out? No, was it Finland or Norway? Oh, no, that was Anyway, maybe they were listening to it while they were camping out for their DRC. Oh, hello, all the Norwegians.
Speaker 1:So joining us now is Lee McLean. So Lee is the Chief Executive of Australian Grape and Wine and he's going to talk us through what is happening in China. So thank you so much for joining us, lee.
Speaker 3:Thanks Meg, Thanks Mel, Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:So, lee, we can now export profitably to China. That's got to be good news, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great news. It's been a really tough few years after China imposed those import duties on Australian wines three years ago now. It's been a long process to get to this point and it's not going to solve all of the problems that we have in the sector at the moment. I think that needs to be stated pretty clearly upfront. But there's no doubt that it's going to be helpful and it's going to be a significant market for us in the future. So we're excited about it, but we've got a lot more work to do as well.
Speaker 2:Are you able to actually talk about what the process did involve? I mean, I know it's sort of very diplomatic and everything, but can you talk us through sort of almost start to finish, I guess, because a lot of people aren't really aware of how it started, how it ended, why it happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and look, I'm probably reasonably well placed to talk about it because I was in the organisation. I wasn't CEO at the time, but I was certainly working with Australian Grape and Wine when these import duties were imposed and they came on pretty quickly, and the allegation at the time coming out of China was that Australia was dumping wine in the market and that we were receiving these trade distorting subsidies. Now, we had the view that that wasn't the case at all. We, as an agricultural producer internationally, are one of the lowest sort of subsidy receiving sectors in the world, and the irony of the dumping claim at the time was that we were actually exporting wine at a price that was, I think, the highest value per litre into the Chinese market as well. So we were actually selling wine. You know, we're selling a lot of it, mind you, but we're selling at pretty good price points.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what happened is that the decision was made that they would impose these import duties on Australian wines. They imposed them at a level that effectively meant that trade was impossible, so they were up to sort of 218% for most wine producers, which was huge, and from that point on, it was really a matter of trying to work with the Australian government to put forward a strategy to help resolve that issue. Now, one of the things we did was support the Australian government's approach to take a dispute process forward at the World Trade Organisation, and we did that with a couple of things in mind. So, firstly, we know that it's really important as a trading nation to be able to have a set of rules that you run your business by. That's a critical part of what we do as an exporting nation. So we wanted to support that.
Speaker 3:We thought that going through that process would allow us to set the facts out in front of an independent umpire in Geneva, to get the facts out there and a decision could be made, hopefully one that was in our favour. And the third possibility, of course, was that we would reach a mediated settlement or some kind of negotiated settlement. And that's where we've landed over the last couple of weeks, which is great. So that's sort of been the process to this point. Obviously, we've been working with government for a long time on this, and we've also been working to try to build a relationship with the Chinese wine industry, which has really grown a lot over recent years as well. But look, we're in a much better spot now than we were six months ago and we're excited to get back into that market.
Speaker 2:And do you know if people have sort of got wine on the market? I know that's probably more a Wine Australia question because they're sort of operational as opposed to strategic and tactical from you guys but do you know if people have got wine on the market at the moment? Because I know? Personally, I'm just trying to get my head around the whole new labelling laws and trying to get the right label right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and so there are a few bumps that people need to get over before they get back into the market, but most businesses that were sort of exporting a lot have gone through some of those registration processes and some of those labelling processes already. So we know that there is wine that is certainly, you know, on its way over there, if not in the market. The other interesting thing and this probably speaks to the point about some of the changes in the market in China as well is that when I was over there in Shanghai in October last year, it was quite noticeable how much Australian wine was still on the shelves. This was pre-import duty vintage wine, but there is still a presence in the market over there as well. So this isn't going to be a return to the sort of $1.2 billion figure that we had prior to those import duties being imposed. It's going to take some time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I also think that there's still a love for Australian wine. I think there's a great affection. You know, we've kept a person on in China throughout the whole saga. But Chile and South Africa who tried to step in, they haven't seemed to be able to replace Australia and I think that that's partly maybe proximity to China and more cultural association, because we just have quite the Chinese diaspora is quite large and, you know, in Australia is huge. But just talking to people, anecdotally, people in China, they're saying, yeah, but we are waiting with open arms for the Australian wine to get back on the shelves. But I think you're right, it's not going to be the silver bullet that everyone is hoping for.
Speaker 3:That's right, and look, you know, we've seen some really good data coming from groups like Wine Intelligence, which has sort of looked at consumer sentiment for Australian wine in China. It's still really strong. People in China tend to like the kinds of wines that we're producing, yeah, and most of it's still really strong. People in China tend to like the kinds of wines that we're producing. Most of those are the sort of big bowl Cabernets and Shiraz that we do very well in many parts of the country. So we think that affinity is still there, but people are still drinking a little bit less in China, just as they are in other parts of the world. They're still drinking at pretty good price points, though. So it's going to be a bit of, you know. We're going to have to feel our way through it for a little while, I think.
Speaker 2:And Australian Grape and Wine's role is you sort of stand between, I guess, the industry and government. Is that how you guys work, so you sort of talk to the broader industry and then go to government with recommendations or how to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's exactly. That's a really good summary of what we are. I mean. So we are a member-based organisation, unlike Wine Australia. We don't have a compulsory levy that people pay. You have to sign up to become a member and pay a membership fee and all the rest of it. But the way I describe it is exactly as you said we're the interface between the industry and political decision makers. So I'm based here in Canberra, we've got another person in Canberra and a team in Adelaide as well, and what we seek to do is talk to government about all of those sort of policy and trade issues that matter to us, whether it's an FTA that is being negotiated or if it's an alcohol and health related policy decision. We are the sort of voice of the industry talking to the political decision makers.
Speaker 2:Right and in terms of going forward, I guess it comes down to individual wineries and our promotional body in Wine Australia. Do you think people will be a bit more nervous about going in, or they'll go in more measuredly or guns blazing? It's hard to feel what the industry is going to do.
Speaker 3:Look, it is a little bit, but I think I get asked this question a lot for obvious reasons, and I think the way that I think about it when I talk to exporters is that there's certainly a greater awareness now of the importance of making sure that export markets are pretty well balanced.
Speaker 3:So we want businesses to be going and looking for opportunities wherever they can. China is still going to be significant and there are people and businesses who are very, very keen to get back into that market, and that's a great thing. And obviously they've got relationships that have been built up over two or three decades with people. Those relationships haven't disappeared because we've been absent from the market for a couple of years. But I think China is going to be one piece of the puzzle. But what we're talking to government about at the moment is that we need to be working together government and industry to make sure we're looking for every opportunity to grow other markets as well internationally. But we think it's a really important one to try to build the right sort of regulatory settings and the right environment for people to do business in a few years' time.
Speaker 2:India's so complicated it's crazy. But I've noticed with China that Chile's exports to China are down 25%. I think South Africa's are kind of around the same, so clearly they're not drinking as much wine. But I did read an article the other day that they're saying that the younger Chinese population is liking white wines now, which is great, because not every region in Australia can produce those big, bold reds. So the diversity of offering could be improved, I think, with the changing choices of beverage that they want to drink.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know for a long time now, china was really almost exclusively a red wine market. We obviously did well in that space.
Speaker 3:But you know, I think it is. Sometimes people fall into the trap of thinking of China in isolation from the rest of the world. It's not, I mean, the sort of trends that we're seeing in China, we see in France, we see in the US and the UK, and here at home as well. People are making decisions about what they drink, in terms of alcohol content, for example. They are looking for greater variety. What they drink in terms of alcohol content, for example, they are looking for greater variety. There is a trend towards white sparkling rosé, that sort of stuff. So I think if there is greater opportunity there for more people to get into that market, that's a positive thing for us.
Speaker 1:And we've been talking a lot about what's happening in Riverland, how there's all this oversupply. Is this going to be a really positive step to kind of help those guys out?
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, I think it's really important to note that it is going to be positive. There's no question about that. But the reality is and I've done a lot of travel over the last 18 months through the Riverland and Riverina Murray Valley in Victoria the thing that I'm acutely aware of is that we have, you know, four or 500 million litres of red wine sitting in tanks around the country. Yeah, that's a hell of a lot of wine for us to try to get through. No single market is going to be able to suck that up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we have got a period of time ahead of us where the industry is going to have to make some difficult decisions about what it does with that surplus, what it does with the grapes that are in the ground, and the growers are going to have to make some difficult decisions. What we've been talking to government about for the last few months and we're hoping that we might see something in the budget about this is some assistance for growers to make better decisions themselves. So if they are looking to remove vines, how can they do that in a sustainable way? Can they get some funding to reduce some of those barriers to getting out of the industry or going and growing something else if that's what they want to do. So these are the sorts of conversations we're having, but we know that we probably can't do it by ourselves as an industry. We're going to need a hand from government.
Speaker 2:I agree, and the Europeans do it all the time. They subsidise everything, even the Borderlei, are pulling out vines to plant almonds.
Speaker 3:That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah, and you know, you sort of get subsidies to get into the industry sometimes and you get subsidies to get out, and there's crisis distillation and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:And we have none of that.
Speaker 3:We have none of it and, look, that's not necessarily a bad thing either. Traditionally, we don't want to sort of get into this habit of going to government without, you know, rattling the can looking for funding, but I think there is a real imperative at the moment, given what's happened with the import duties that we faced. That was completely outside of our control, driven by geopolitics as much as anything. I think that's an economic shock that does deserve some level of support, and the thing that I'm really conscious of is that it's not just the grape and wine businesses, but it's these regional communities in places like Redmark or Berry or Dura that are going to suffer if we don't get this right. So that's what we're pushing for from government at the moment.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you. It's been great that you know someone's on the wine industry side, because they really have. We have taken a little bit of a beating over the last few years, but it is a boom-bust industry and we're just in the busty side at the moment.
Speaker 3:But this is all good news.
Speaker 2:And it came on Good Friday, didn't it? Was it Good Friday?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought so it did come on Good Friday and yeah, so I think it was, you know, a nice bit of news ahead of an Easter long weekend for many people, so that's a good thing For sure, well, well done.
Speaker 1:Thanks for the work you're doing. Thank you.
Speaker 3:It's a pleasure and happy to have a chat any time.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that was really interesting, meg. It sounds like it's good news, but it's not going back to the full glory days. No.
Speaker 2:And I think I have been really happy with the way Australian Grapevine and Wine Australia have been talking about this is don't not continue to diversify, keep looking for other markets.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah. So to go back to that, people were just fully all in Like. Their strategies were let's win in China, right yeah?
Speaker 2:Warren Randall at the Wine Tech Conference in 2019 came out and his opening three words were China, China, China. Yeah, look where it goes. He bought Vineyard, you know, and then we're sitting on a lot of wine. What's interesting to see is that the state governments are actually getting behind the local wine industry. So WA, South Australia, Victorian governments are getting behind and actually providing a little bit of export development money through Global Vic in Victoria. I don't know what the South Australian or WA equivalents are, but it's to get us to help in China. But go further, Go further.
Speaker 2:Vietnam I mean Lee mentioned India.
Speaker 2:India is something that they've been pushing. It's now the biggest population in the world, yeah, Growing middle class. So there's a lot of hope. But again, we just have to, I think, be measured and controlled about going into China. We're sitting on two years' worth of stock. If they go back to their original consumption which they're not going to do, it's just not going to happen. Plus, we've got a new vintage, 2024. That's just come on. So we need to address the structural oversupply issues as an industry and that's an internal conversation and then continue to look for other markets.
Speaker 1:Are you comforted? I felt comforted by him.
Speaker 2:Like they I was. When I heard the news. I was really excited because I have read a lot on this and it's only a positive, but it's not the sole solution, oh no.
Speaker 1:I mean just like him, like. I mean like we have good people that are fighting for us.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're amazing.
Speaker 1:Like it feels like there's a lot of doom and gloom, but then you speak to someone like that and you're like you know what, he knows his shit and he's fighting for us and it's a member-based organisation.
Speaker 2:They do it on the smell of an oily rag. Seriously, these guys don't have really big budgets. Don't have a really big budget, and the thing that I love about Australian Grapevine is there's a passion for it.
Speaker 1:It's not just it could be potatoes.
Speaker 2:You know they. Actually he mentioned, you know, the communities. Like we have to get this right for the communities.
Speaker 1:It's just great, it's good to see. We are welcoming today, nick Ryan. So Nick is a renowned industry voice. Nick's a columnist for World of Fine Wine, contributed to Halliday Wine Judge and events. So pretty much everything that you can do in wine Nick seems to have done. And, nick, you are taking over the infamous column of the Australian, the Australian wine column, from the hands of maybe the most legendary wine personality in Australia, james Halliday. So how does that feel?
Speaker 4:There is some pressure involved with taking over from James. You know I always say that that column is, you know, the most important real estate in Australian wine writing, and James made it that way. I mean he's been writing that column for 40 years. Oh wow. So that's. You know, in any field that kind of longevity is, you know, is rare, if you know, existent at all. So you know, for James to have every week for 40 years churned out you know the quality of copy that he did is an incredible achievement. So yeah, it's not something I'd go into lightly.
Speaker 1:And do you want to take us back and give us a bit more? You know we kind of gave the highlights of you professionally, but what got you into wine and what are you going to bring to this column?
Speaker 4:Okay. So I do get asked this question a lot and people are always slightly bemused by the answer. I mean, I fell into it because I got thrown out of university in Adelaide for not going enough, and that was an arts degree.
Speaker 2:That's how lazy I was at university, the whole nine hours that you had to attend, oh yeah.
Speaker 4:I had to go to university. If I couldn't get a park right at the front I'd just keep going. I moved to Sydney and, you know, moved into a place in Woolloomooloo with a couple of friends and needed to pay some rent. So I got a, applied for a. I saw a job ad in the Sydney Morning Herald Again, that's how old I am. We go back to looking in the classifieds for employment opportunities and there was a job going at a place called Crundle Cellars up in Bram Street in Kings Cross and I applied. I got an interview. I was asked in that interview to name seven grape varieties and I could and Geoffrey said well, I've just interviewed 17 other people who couldn't do that. So you've got the job.
Speaker 2:But you know and when did you start writing? Because you've done some education as well, haven't you? Yeah?
Speaker 4:yeah, I did. You know, make it what's like, you've got to try and do bits of everything, but, um, the writing came. I've been working at Crandall Cellars for a while but I really sort of kicked up a level when I went to work at Five Way Cellars in Paddington, which I think is still one of the great independent wine retailers in the country, still going under the Cook family ownership. But you know, I would walk in there every day and Cookie would shove something under my nose and go, okay, what's that, talk to me about that. And Cookie would shove something under my nose and go, okay, what's that, talk to me about that. And they published a newsletter. For you know they did as a local letterbox drop and, as you know, they'd mail out to their mailing list and, again, showing my age, I'd have to sit upstairs on a little computer and write it and save it to a disc and take it to a printer and go back a week later and pick up the boxes.
Speaker 2:At least it wasn't on the old, you know Gestalt machines or whatever they were. No, no, not quite that bad.
Speaker 4:But I understand that you know, I really like this process of trying to you know, explain what I was tasting and tell the story of what was in a glass of wine.
Speaker 2:Points. How much do they actually communicate to?
Speaker 4:you about wine. It's an interesting point, pardon the pun, because sort of 25 years of writing about wine I've actually, because you know the Weekend Australian column has always sort of required it for the very first time since the publishing point. So it's yeah, it's been at the forefront of my mind for the last month or so.
Speaker 1:You once very eloquently described trying to put a number to a one is like trying to nail a fart to a wall.
Speaker 4:I've used that phrase more than once. I understand why they're useful, but they are not ever the only answer to the way. You know, looking at a glass of wine, they support the words that come before them in a way. Yeah, and it wasn't. You know it's not. You know I've done more than enough wine show judging to feel comfortable with. You know, whacking a number on a glass of wine, but I think we've contracted that. You know whacking a number on a glass of wine, but I think we've contracted that. You know too much.
Speaker 4:And in my first column I sort of deliberately had a wine in there that you know started with a score. You know the score started with an eight and I was wanting to say, you know it was a $26 sort of red blend out of the Barossa, really interesting wine from Jeremy Eben Evans, and I just went. You know this is a fantastic wine for. You know, for the money it's being asked, there's a great story behind it. You know I think I sort of wrote the line if you'd be happy getting this mark in the university exam, you should be happy. You know, drinking the wine, which if you applied to my case it would mean I would drink a lot of you know, 48, 51, 52, you know point wines yeah.
Speaker 2:Mel and I have been talking to some people at the National Gallery of Victoria here about how do you translate a sense into words, and I think you're right. The written word is much more effective. Like, imagine associating a point with the Mona Lisa and go oh, 99. I mean, it doesn't really say anything unless you know what the points are.
Speaker 4:No, and the three of us could sit down and look at the Mona Lisa and you know I don't see the point. To be honest, yours is 96 and maybe yours is 99, but who's right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mine's about a 50. Yeah.
Speaker 4:The Pieta in St Peter's, michael Andrews' Pieta. That's a 100-point piece of art. It makes me cry that thing every time. I've seen it, every time I've seen it. But yeah, look, I think it really is a blunt instrument to use to try and capture something as nuanced and complex and personal as an interaction with great wine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and wine is so fluid again, not meaning pun, it's your moment in time whereas someone drinking that in a different situation at a different time. You know, even if it's in with three months, six months a year, the wine is going to be different to everyone. So I do believe that the written word is so much more important in how to use the wine rather than points. But you know, working in the business, I understand that everyone wants a 95-point holiday wine. So you can't get away from it.
Speaker 4:No, you can't, and that's why I've. You know I've succumbed after years of trying to. I think Max Allen and I were the only ones, the last ones, doing it. I know Jancis has required Max to do it and you know I gave him a little hard. Yeah, I gave him a hard time about it when it first started. Oops, as a little niggle and just some fun. And now the last domino has fallen.
Speaker 1:He's succumbed. So you've also mentioned that, as part of creating these points, you actually take into consideration the story as well, which I think is actually kind of changing the point system a little bit. Can you tell us a bit about that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, look, I think it has to. You know, if you are, you know writing about wine is different to judging. You know wine in a wine show and I think you know you're factoring in a whole lot of other details. And if you know when you've done the work as the journalist to find out, you know the hard work that's gone into a particular wine or where the you know innovation or the creative thinking that has sort of gone behind. You know the production of that wine and you think, well, that's actually worth layering into your score and to paint a broader picture of what that wine is. A broader picture of what that wine is. You know it doesn't. You know you don't suddenly take an 87-point wine to a 96-point wine because the winemaker has a particularly flary fashion sense. But it's some of the fine tuning, I guess, of the score, that sort of you know just a little, a little equaliser, shifting stuff that you do to settle on a number that you think is right.
Speaker 2:I really respect that. No, I agree. Yeah, I agree Because, it does you know, people are making these wines for people to enjoy, yeah, and so, yes, part of it is their, I guess their graft.
Speaker 4:And you see it when you know you do it yourself and you see other people do it. And I especially like those occasions where you're drinking nice wines with people who aren't necessarily in the business but they've for some reason got a connection to the wine that they've bought and the wine that they're drinking and they want to tell that story. I mean, you know the number of people I've met over the years that have waved their Rockford Stonewallers little key ring at me, you know, because they're members of that Rockford Stonewallers Society and you know that's why they bring those wines to the table and they tell the stories of having gone there and spoken to Robert at the winery or had those Stonewaller lunches. That's all that stuff that's threaded through the wine. That makes it, you know, a lot more interesting than just sort of an amalgam of flavours and aromas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to finish up, I'd love to hear, like, what are you going to bring to the column what you know? What are your values or philosophies or things about you? That would be good background to know when we're going in to read it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, look, I'm. Obviously I'm a very different person to James. I'm a different taster to James. I'm a different person to James. I'm a different taster to James. I'm a different writer to James. And you know, I could take that man's liver and blend it and the milkshake would have more great wine in it than you know I will ever drink. But that's, you know, that's James. James was a man of a moment in time and I don't think that will ever be replicated. No one's ever going to have the kind of drinking career that James. But you know, yeah, I might maybe bring a less disciplined is probably the wrong way to say it but maybe a slightly more free-form approach to the. We think you're quite funny.
Speaker 2:We've read a few of your things. It's quite humorous and I don't think that there's. We don't. I think, as a reading public, you don't want to see James Halliday replicated.
Speaker 4:He was a snapshot in time. Why bother? Because you're not going to be able to do it anyway, no, and the I, I'm not an.
Speaker 2:AI machine. The wine-drinking community is really different now. Yeah, yeah. So it needs new voices.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think so, and you know, james' contribution has been, you know, enormous, massive, yeah, it's very hard to quantify. But yeah, if I can, maybe, you know, open the subject up to some, you know, some new readers, god knows. You know, in traditional media businesses we need new readers. So if I can open that up.
Speaker 1:One could use with some new drinkers.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, exactly, get these younger people in. Yeah, well, that's it. People are sort of drinking less, we know it. Yeah and so, but they are drinking better. Yes, you know, I was the university. She needs to take a four-litre cask of Morris Pressings to a party and sleep on the bag at the end. But you know, those people now don't do that at the end. But you know those people now don't do that. They're buying Velazco or Shadley.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a different world and hopefully you can help them on that journey and we'll let you get back to the holiday.
Speaker 2:Hell yeah, good luck, mate. I'll clap for you in a heartbeat. See you later. Bye, nick.
Speaker 4:Thanks, Nick, and we wish you glad to be in a heartbeat.
Speaker 1:See you later. Bye, nick, thanks, nick, and we wish you all the best with the column. So that is it from us for this week. We hope you enjoyed hearing some of the news from the wine world. We will be back with you next week, but until then, enjoy your next glass of wine and drink well, drink well, drink well, drink well.