Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Uncorking Barbera: Italy's Bold, Acid-Driven Red
Meg and Mel dive into the world of Barbera, exploring whether this Italian red variety truly deserves its reputation as the wine of choice for "cool kids."
• Barbera comes from Piemonte in northern Italy, at the foot of the Alps
• The grape produces wines with high acidity, minimal oak influence, and distinctive purple color
• Typical flavor profile includes blackberry, blackcurrant, and herbal notes
• Australian versions from Adelaide Hills and Alpine Valleys compared to Italian Barbera d'Alba
• Even aged Barbera maintains a vibrant purple color due to low pH levels
• Italian Barberas range from affordable everyday options to premium bottles at $50+
• Best enjoyed with food, particularly fatty meats and pasta dishes
• Alternative recommendation: Lange Nebbiolo offers better value for serious red wine drinkers
Check out our social media for updates and videos from McCleary Productions! Next episode, we'll dive into iconic Australian wines.
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Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel. We are here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Mel Gilchrist, joined by Master of Wine Meg Brotman. Meg, what are we doing today?
Speaker 2:We're looking at Barbera because you keep telling me that it's like the cool kids drink and I'm just not convinced. I've had Barbera before you have. I swear have I. Yeah. I just think that I've had it before you have. I swear have I, yeah.
Speaker 1:I just think that no Italian wines are up and coming. Maybe I've heard that. No, I'm sure it was Barbera.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it was Barbera. I've never, hey. I've just gone out and bought all these Barbera wines. So bloody, bloody, bloody, it is an all-rounder.
Speaker 1:It's wine that can go. It covers many things okay.
Speaker 2:All right, we will get into it first. What have you been drinking? So I had and I don't know the name of it, but it was a winery in austria in the vacao sauvignon blanc okay, you looked at me like well, most people you're allowed to drink with austria.
Speaker 2:And I was there with my it. It was the Master of Wine get-together at Singapore Van Expo. Funny, because it was like a handful of us, yeah, and there was a woman there, annette, and she organised it, annette Scarfe, and it was at the Austrian Wine Stand because she works for them. And I was thinking, oh okay, but Austrian wine stand because she works for them. And I was thinking, oh okay, but they poured this Sauvignon Blanc and I did not get a photo of the bottle, but it was absolutely amazing. And my Kiwi husband went, oh my God, that is so good. And he went back the next day and actually asked it because at the end of the fair.
Speaker 2:Everyone's pouring out goblets. You know of wine, he said can I please have a glass of that?
Speaker 1:It was so delicious I love that you're talking it up so much but you don't actually know the name, so none of us can go no I will.
Speaker 2:I will find. There's no way we're going to be able to find it had a green label with some gold writing on it.
Speaker 1:Um, I will go and find green label with gold writing green green label remember when oh my god, remember in our first season we had um something we didn't know or something, and all our listeners ran out and like tracked it down. Oh my god, what was it?
Speaker 2:do you remember that time ago? But like we.
Speaker 1:They were like little minions and they came back and they were like, they were like we've, we've, we've tracked it down for you. This is the person. It was a person that found the person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah the the master of wine. That, that's it, nancy.
Speaker 1:Something. They found it Anyway. So the fact that you've just said that I bet someone's going to come back and find it for us, green oval label Riesling bottle, maybe Bordeaux bottle?
Speaker 2:Green oval label with some gold writing on it, but anyway, that was.
Speaker 1:Keep checking our Instagram.
Speaker 1:I'll give you my if we, if we find it um, hang on though austria. I was just about to make a point that you know how in wesset they only talk about yarra valley in terms of um, chardonnay, pinot noir. When you say you wouldn't expect sauvignon blanc to come from austria, I wouldn't have thought that, because for me I'm like oh, I know that you know, grununewaldlinger and stuff might be a hero grape, but I kind of assumed there'd be other stuff that would work, and surely Sauvignon Blanc would work in the same climate as Grunewald.
Speaker 2:So is that how it is there? Yeah, no, you're right, it's a cool continental climate, so there's no reason why Sauvignon shouldn't grow there.
Speaker 1:But I was just so. They're not bound to varieties like Francis, no, okay.
Speaker 2:But honestly, austrians, forget the Gruner. Hang your hat on this Sauvignon, it is so good.
Speaker 1:No one says forget the Gruner in front of me. Okay, sorry, oh Gruner.
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 1:like Gruner, Austin Love it. It's terrific. There we go. If you were just joining us and if you haven't listened to one of the episodes where we introduced Austin, which is likely because you might have dropped off.
Speaker 2:when the audio was crap. Even I stopped listening. Yeah, it was very annoying. I don't care what I said, no one can hear me. Anyway, I'm sorry everyone.
Speaker 1:We've sorted. Austin is just some legend who came along who makes videos. That's like what he does and he likes the podcast and he was like guys, I think that I should do some videos for your social. What's the name of your company?
Speaker 2:Austin.
Speaker 1:That's McCleary Productions.
Speaker 2:McCleary, like Harry McCleary.
Speaker 1:McCleary Productions. Mccleary Productions there you go. So if you follow us on social media and you're like, how come all of a sudden their videos are fantastic, when they used to just look like trash? That's why.
Speaker 2:And he's managed to make Mel's shelves look tidy, like I saw him sort of running around with bottles.
Speaker 1:He does. He's got this attention to detail which we don't see Okay, we detail which we don't see. Okay, we're gonna do this before billy wakes up. We've, we've also told him, though it's nice to have, like, almost like, a voice of the people here, so that if we make some, if we say something, it doesn't make sense I've invited him to kind of speak up. He's like a little pretty fast sitting off the side or like a referee maybe, if we argue I represent the layman yeah, you represent the common man from the common man from thomas moore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, meg, what have you been drinking? I've just told you what I've been drinking, haven't I? The fun fact is, did you know that the average age of an oak tree when it's cut down to make an oak barrel is between 80 and 120 years of age, and they can go up to 200 years of age, and you only get two barrels from one oak tree. And that's not because oak trees aren't big, it's because they're all apportioned to different, like flooring or I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating.
Speaker 2:So it's old oak, it's grown slowly.
Speaker 1:Poviejo, they used to talk about the winemaker. She would go to France and choose the trees.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're allowed to do that. Is that a legit thing, can you?
Speaker 1:actually go look at a tree a bit? No, you can. You can mark them. No, but I mean, like does it? Is it actually going to tell you anything about how the wine's going to turn out from the outside?
Speaker 2:no, absolutely not. But when you go into these oak forests in nevere or whatever they're actually there's, it's like a amazing code, like the Zodiac code of crosses and circles and dots and different coloured spray paints, which are obviously people doing that, and it wouldn't all just be for barrels, it would be for furniture, I don't know, right, okay.
Speaker 1:Barbera. We are getting into Barbera. Okay, let's just frame this Sangiovese huge, pretty big, like, I think, the um common man speak up. If you were to name a Italian variety, what would it be?
Speaker 2:Chianti, yeah, sangiovese, exactly one in the same and Austin just did tell me about half an hour ago that he loves Sangiovese. So clearly it's on his brain.
Speaker 1:No one can afford. Barolo. Nebbiolo is kind of up and coming as well, but Barbera is one of those things that if you are at an Italian restaurant, it is likely to be in your price range, and I think it is becoming bigger and bigger here, so it is worth exploring. Meg, tell us about Barbera.
Speaker 2:So Barbera from Piemonte. So you may have heard of Barbera d'Asti, so Asti's Piemonte, so it's from around the range.
Speaker 1:Nasti Asti.
Speaker 2:Nasti, asti, I love Asti. Anyway, Piemonte, as the name suggests, if you speak Italian, it's the foot of the mountain, so it's the foot of the Alps.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that that was the translation. I didn't know that the the was a translation. I didn't know that I don't speak italian.
Speaker 2:P-i-e is foot monte yeah good job, and we call it piedmont, which is the french version of p-a foot mont. Oh, there you go, so it's literally at the bottom of mont blanc. Yeah, okay, um, and it's so. It's a cool continental climate. They're obviously most famous for Nebbiolo. In terms of white great varieties, you've got some Arnais and Cortese, you've got Barbera sort of sits there.
Speaker 1:So we're at the top of the boot in terms of Italy. We're on our way to France. We're at the top of the boot, yeah yeah, we're at the top of the boot in terms of Italy. We're on our way to France. We're at the top of the boot, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:We're at the top of the thigh, we're at the hip. Baby, we're at the hip. We're about to kick France out. It's literally on the border with France. Yeah, it's a grape variety that, for me, is very fruit driven, 99.9% un-oaked driven, 99.9% unoaked. If the Italians put it in oak, it's that old oak bottes that you know have no impact, high in acidity and has black fruit. For me so it's blackberry blackcurrant. But there's always and this is why I struggle to get around it for me there's always a herbal undertone to the wines, but they are the perfect entree wine to and your charcuterie and saucisson and salami and things, because that acidity just is crying out for fat, yeah, and there's plenty of fruit to support it. So I thought we'd get some Aussie numbers, yeah, and then we had a look. I got a couple of OG ones. It's funny to compare.
Speaker 1:Can I give you my impression, before we go in, of how I currently think of Barbera? I think the flavor is too harsh, considering it's not oaked, and I don't think it has the body to back how much flavour it gives me. I always get this smack of like blackberry and I just I always think to myself this wine needs more body. It's got so much flavour like.
Speaker 2:I think this is our problem. We associate so much of our red wine drinking with oak. So if you look at a valpolicella, you're not expecting that, are you?
Speaker 1:but it's more red fruit, I think. When I it's, maybe it comes down to fruit.
Speaker 2:If it's, I think it's the acid I think it's the acid that's saying to you I need a little bit of softening, okay, um, and that's that's where I kind of fall over with barbara that, um, I can drink it in very, very, very specific situations. And after Mel told us that it was the trendy thing, pete and I went out and bought a whole heap at Dan's and we're drinking them and we're both like it's fine, but we're just not convinced. And I think when we were in Piemonte we actually drank a lot of it. When we were in Piemonte, we actually drank a lot of it, but we were actually putting it in the fridge and chilling it down and having it with sort of pre-dinners.
Speaker 1:People would be drinking it a lot because it isn't it almost guaranteed it's going to be second cheapest. If you're at an Italian restaurant, it'll be second cheapest. Oh yeah, yeah, valpolicella will be the cheapest, and then your Barbera will be next, and so I bet so many people are drinking Barbera.
Speaker 2:Which look. It's fine, it's if that's what you like, but I think it needs to have nibbles. So the first one we've got is the 2023 Lingo Bar. Where's this from Adelaide Hills? I like the label and Barb. Where's this from Adelaide Hills?
Speaker 1:I like the label and I like the bottle.
Speaker 2:It's cool, so the bottle's almost like a Juranseau bottle. No, I was going to know what that means, man, I was going to say it's got some tartar at Christmas, but it's obviously your candle on the back. So it's Barbera Lingo, Barbs lingo. Say it with confidence. It's pinnacle, one pinnacle wine. So this would have been the cheapest wine, so this is sort of your pinnacle means endeavor drinks. So they either make the wine or they buy it and bottle it themselves now I love the nose.
Speaker 1:I haven't tasted it yet, but it is really love the nose. I haven't tasted it yet, but it is really inviting the nose. Hmm, it's fruity, but there's something kind of spicy or herbal and different in there.
Speaker 2:It's that herbal note that I can't get around with, oh you can't get around it.
Speaker 1:Oh really, I like it All. Right, austin, pour some. Can you smell some of these bar barbs for us? And I'm genuinely interesting to know if you like the herbal note have you had much experience with barbera? Me? Yep, I haven't. I've had a lot of experience with italian wines, as I am half italian, at least it's very. It reminds me of Italy, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, true. So maybe as an Italian Do you know that French term, garigue. So it's a sort of oregano, lavender and, I think, rosemary that grow on the sides of the road in Provence and you know, it's like that woody herb. Running your hand over a woody herb, I just find it. It's the one one, my one stopping point. With Barbera I can have a glass, happily, with some, you know, salami or charcuterie, or salumi as the Italians call it, but I'm not a big fan of it as a wine, just by itself.
Speaker 1:Austin, how's the nose in that for you Good, heavy nice.
Speaker 2:Heavy nice.
Speaker 1:It's the only way to?
Speaker 2:I don't really know, but the Italians never drink wine really without food. That's the thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:The next one I've got is Billy Button, so your favourite it's different. I love Billy Button. This is from Alpine.
Speaker 1:Valleys 2022. It's us pronounced on the nose it button um. This is from alpine valleys 2022.
Speaker 2:It's less pronounced on the nose, it's less floral, it's less perfumed. Barbara, called the affable. Well, this is a little bit meatier yeah that I could drink by itself. It's softer. It's softer on the palate, but it's, I don't know the Barbs was, and more Barbera yeah, yes, yes, true, that was more OG than this is. This is, for me, the Billy Button.
Speaker 2:This is a year older, so maybe it's started to soften out a little bit, and I do think that Barbera is a wine that you need to drink young. It's not something that needs to be aged yeah. But again no oak, a little bit of licorice.
Speaker 1:This one, this Billy Button one. I could sit on it for longer, but the first one, the barbs, excited me. The nose was like thrilling.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm not quite sure which one. I'm assuming that that's next. Were they both?
Speaker 1:screw cap.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Two Italian wine screw cap. That's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's telling you that they're cheap. What you use, that 21 and it's 21, one of these is expensive. Did I leave the anyway?
Speaker 1:I'm sure we'll figure it out if we, I reckon it's that one because it's in a bordeaux bottle let's just say some both.
Speaker 2:That's fun we'll figure out which one's. We've got a faber de alba. So if you know pimonte at all, alba's one of the cities and if you get a chance to visit, you must go. It's a walled-in city. It's where they have lots of truffles and they have a particular spaghetti which I think is bloody awful Tallarini's, but it's just basic, but it's apparently supposed to be drunk with Barbera d'Alba. Google it. This is a 2021, so it's four years old. The colour is incredibly vibrant and purple, and this is the thing about Barbera because the acid is so high, the pH on this. I've never made Barbera, so I don't know, but I'm assuming, based on that colour, the pH must be really, really low.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'm just giving some to Austin, so in real time tasting, here is most Barbera gonna present as purple, purple yeah, that's why that Billy Button one was for me quite surprising, because it's always.
Speaker 2:There's two great varieties that I think look almost identical Zweigelt, which of course no one's ever drunk, and three Blaufrankisch Zweigelt and Barbera always have that. Oh my God, they've just literally made it sort of vibe.
Speaker 1:So I always say this in Wesset, especially when you're like framing it at the start of a class, sorry, at the start of like a full course. People always, because they have like five different options of colours in front of them, they want to use all of them and they're so tempted to say something is a different colour, but in reality, most red ones are ruby. Oh, darn it, that's it. Yeah, you got two. You're not finding purple very often, and so it's kind of cool that.
Speaker 2:Um, maybe we use this as a shout out to if you do want to find an example of purple, start buying barbara so when you for wsat students, when you're looking at the purple, don't look at the edge of the glass, look at the middle. It has a distinct sort of purple, grapey color to it, um, and there's almost a blue hint in the wine. This is what I think Barbera should be.
Speaker 2:Is the alcohol content on these really high Shouldn't be, should it? I'd say around 13 and a half oh no, that's 14 and a half.
Speaker 1:Picked it. Can I please see the front? And billy button is 14 okay, so this one I don't know about lingo I've found the price it's 38. This italian one it doesn't have. There's only two reviews on Dan Murphy's and they are not great, disappointing bit. Young, not as mellow as I was expecting. The other person said walk past it next time. It'd be reasonable at 12 to 15 dollars as an Australian wine, but it's an overpriced import and that's the thing with Barbera.
Speaker 2:it's's not a mellow wine, no, it's not it's never ever ever a mellow wine. It's not friendly. It's a zingy, zappy kind of wine to be consumed in its youth, yeah. So what do we think of the Barbera d'Alba 2021? Quite, savoury, a bit muddy. I would you know how Stokin said I would kind of prefer that with a plate of pasta. Yeah, you didn't like it, austin. No, this one wasn't quite for me.
Speaker 1:I'm not too sure. Yeah, no, you're right, Meg. I think you're exactly right that the acid is too high and I expect more body or tannin to be able to back it up, and without it it's got really strong flavor on the palate and it's got a lot of acid and I just want something else to complete that structure so now I have, can you check this?
Speaker 2:it's a barbera de alba masolino 2021, and I think this is the really pricey one. But again, look at the color, it's four years old.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is 53, yeah so my aim was to compare that rivetto barbera de alba from zio nando, 2021, with at 35, and it look literally that is probably a 10 euro bottle of wine, but you're paying all the taxes against a serious winemaker's wine of Barbera d'Alba from Messalina Messalina is a very good producer in Piemonte from 2021. Quite elegant label. I just love it. It's just white, no, but the color is amazing. The smell is stunning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's gorgeous, I agree. Austin said the smell is great, but so is the palate, the thing about it it has that sweet spot to it, so sweet spot's when the fruit and alcohol balance are perfect.
Speaker 2:So when you first take it into your tongue it kind of feels like a little tender, velvet touch across your tongue. I have to say 53 bucks for Barbera, I'm not going there, yeah. But if this was in a restaurant and it was the second highest priced red wine and I was having some lovely pasta, nizhana or something, I would be very happy with this. It is pretty yummy. It's not what I'm expecting from. Happy with this. It is pretty yummy. It's not what I'm expecting from Barbera. It has Barbera black fruits, that brambliness that you see in the cheaper versions in that lingo, and the cheaper Barbera d'Alba from Zio Nando is gone.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So it's definitely riper in fruit character, I think it's pretty young.
Speaker 1:This is interesting. The dead miffy's description says barbara can be a bit of a chameleon, so let's set the record straight immediately. This wine falls into pure fruited, punchy, lighter bodied good times category, which isn't wrong, but no when you describe that and then put it next to the price tag of $50,. I don't want to spend $50 on good times Like I want to spend $50 on good wine, like a wine that I'm, I can dissect and be interested in, and you know.
Speaker 2:So that is the, I guess, the best version. Obviously, this is from a serious producer in Barbera, in Alba of Barbera, and this is what they think Barbera should look like. And then we've got the sort of from the Ravetto, the more yippee-zangy, you know. Let's just drink it. Yeah, I'm not spending $53 on it, but it is a bloody. That said, go out and try it, it really is quite. It's an interesting concept. I just keep thinking of Alba and the truffles, you know, the pasta bianca with just beautiful truffles shaved over the top, and I think that that would be beautiful, that tallini shit, that other than I don't know what that is um, I don't know, favorite maybe, no, no, no, clearly the last one, but I don't want to just say the last one of the rest.
Speaker 1:If you want something that you can drink all night, billy button. But if you want something that's interesting and has got a real barbarianess to it, I liked the bubs, I I don't know the bubs, and I don't know if we should use this term, but the bubs is our aldi version of barbara.
Speaker 2:You know how we always say aldi says exactly what it is on the bottle. Yep, that is exactly what it is on the bottle. Yep, that is exactly what young, cheap Barbera and I'm. I think that was like $13. I don't think it was very expensive.
Speaker 1:If you want to taste Barbera, what does Barbera taste like? Go buy that. That is. It's a good. It's a good example, yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1:So after this, your minds don't change. You're still not going out to buy any more Barbera. No, yeah me either.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, if I've got 50 bucks, I'm buying San Gervaisi or even a.
Speaker 1:Lange Nebbiolo. I've been buying so much Lange. I have all my friends hooked on Lange, no matter how much you spend 45 bucks. I've got like a nice $40 Lange oh so good. But equally I've bought like a $25 Lange on special for $20 and that was great Lange.
Speaker 2:People, lange, nebbiolo and even Costco Do one. We were in there the other day, although. Costco's wine choice is just depressing. There's a lot of Chandon in here. Depressing, I'm going to cut that You're making me do editing here. No, no, no, it's the marketing. It's your garden spritz so perfectly. But yeah, there's no Lange, there's no Chevrolet anymore. It's all just shit, Australian stuff.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we'll cut that. I would never expect there to be Lange in Costco anyway. Yeah, there used to be, did they? Yeah, they just buy whatever shit's at the cheapest price. I don't know. I think we've touched on Lange before, but I do think we need to reinforce that. If you want a good red line, let's do Lange, let's do Lange, let's do Lange.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, let's do Lange. So we're doing Gippsland Lange and and I don't know well, there was another one whitlands. Oh yeah, whitlands. Oh my god, we've already. We've just done all our preparation for next week. No, we actually need to do. Um. I've been collecting bottles for we are going to do an episode iconic wines of australia. So we've got ourselves some noble one. We've got yara yaring and we need to hunt down probably the last few. We probably need a vat one. We probably need to send it to us. Last few, we probably need a VAT one. The wineries need to send it to us. Well, that's what I'm angling at. Here's another delivery. Anyone listening?
Speaker 2:I swear this woman keeps Australia Post alive. Yeah, You're such a consumer. Yeah, I am aren't?
Speaker 1:I Say bow, say bow. We need to wrap this up. Wrap this up, because Billy's about to wake up. We haven't managed. It really is. We just did three in her nap. That was awesome.
Speaker 2:I know that was so good, okay and the first one was rambling we weren't no, but we got kind of like.
Speaker 1:No, it was interesting. I don't know. We kind of like butted heads a little bit. I liked it. I think it makes it interesting. Anyway, we're done. Um, you can always tell when we've recorded, when we're on the last episode. A little bit of wine. That needs a bit of a nap. Now that needs a nap. I've got energy. I need to dance. Okay, we'll be back with you next week. Until next time, enjoy your next glass of wine and drink well.
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