Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Who am I meant to listen to? The truth about wine ratings with guests: Huon Hooke, Max Allen and Michael Anderson
Wine scoring systems have proliferated, leaving many consumers confused about who to trust when choosing their next bottle. We break down the differences between wine shows, critic ratings, classifications, and journalistic approaches to help you navigate the complex world of wine recommendations.
• Wine shows use panels of expert judges who taste wines blind, scoring on a 100-point scale
• Judges award bronze (85-89), silver (90-94), and gold (95+) medals based on technical merit
• The Real Review groups wines by variety for comparative tasting, with critics having freedom to taste non-blind
• Halliday Wine Companion uses regional specialists who focus on terroir-specific excellence
• Langton's Classification is data-driven, ranking wines based on auction performance and collector demand
• Wine writer Max Allen avoids scoring altogether, focusing on storytelling and context
• Regional wine shows offer valuable insight into local specialties
• Personal preferences should ultimately guide your wine choices
To find wines you'll truly enjoy, consider which approach aligns with your own preferences and use these systems as helpful guides rather than definitive judgments.
Follow us on instagram @winewithmegandmel
Hi, and welcome to Wine with Meg and Malware here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Melga Chris Draymate, Master of Wine, Meg Brockman. How are you going, Meg? Oh good.
SPEAKER_05:That's all very on the fly today. It's all sort of come together very quickly and everyone who wants to be involved. It's fantastic. Thank God I'm heading off to Canberra tomorrow. So I kind of came home at two and I've been working from home since then. So I'm very chill. I've even got a glass of wine and I just texted my husband and said, God, your shiny's good. And um he's texted back and he said, What do you mean it's only four o'clock? So I told a white light, I said, Oh, I had it last night.
SPEAKER_03:I was just thinking back on how good Shah did when I do drink it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03:So today's episode. As you say, it did come together on the fly. Um, we got a really, really great message on the back of um Sydney Ruhr wine show. And in fact, if you haven't listened to the episode with Angus Barnes yet, that's probably a good precursor for this episode because this DM came through in response to that. Um, not the episode. Well, the episode with Angus Barnes or the episode that we did on the wine show as well. Because I think we made some sort of comment that was like, it's a national show, so you can trust it.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, we did.
SPEAKER_03:And then uh Terry has sent us a message saying, you know, just listen to the podcast and made me think, like, what actually can we trust? What is more believable? How do you get a good wine? There's like Langdon's, there's Halliday, wine choose, Dan Murphy's, like, I'm so lost. General consumers like me don't even understand these points or what I can follow. So um, it was just such a good point. I it was like a real light bulb moment for me. And I was like, I think you're so right. And we we should break this down for everyone, right?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I agree. I mean everything has its merit, and there is a million things out there, it's like anything, but um, it's just deciding what works best for you would be my advice. You know.
SPEAKER_03:The the idea of this episode is to give you the information that you need so that you can figure out what does work for you, I guess. Because we know what the difference is at the moment, yeah. Absolutely. So, look, um, we've decided to start at wine shows. After wine shows, we're going to talk um to and about some of the biggest media platforms. So we're gonna cover um the real review and Halliday, how they do it. And then we're going to cover Langton's um and that kind of more like a retailer one. So the Langton's classification and like how the Stenmurphys come into it. And then we're going to cover actually um a chat with Max Allen, which he's on the side of don't do points at all. Just like right.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, wine journalism versus wine scoring.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So there's so we've got wine scoring, we've got wine shows, we've got journalism. So we've got it kind of all thrown in here, classification, so that you can just pick through, find what you like. Um, but Meg, we wanted to start with wine shows. So can you please just go for it, lay out how points are given in wine shows? What is the tasting process like if you if you pick up a wine and there's a point on it, how did that point get there?
SPEAKER_05:So the way the show works is, and I'll talk sort of from national shows, because national shows, what that term national means is it's wines from everywhere in Australia. So if you're making Chardonnay in Margaret River, Yarrow Valley, Adelaide Hills, Hunter Valley, they'll all be thrown in together. Yeah, okay. So we're not comparing within a region or within a certain context. We're just com looking for the best wine out of that table. So you'll be given there'll be classes. So there'll be Chardonnay, um 2023 and younger, Chardonnay 2022 and older. So they'll be broken up. If they're very big classes, they're split classes. So there's usually two, maybe three panels, so that you're not tasting more than 30 or 40 wines. Um and then all the judges go through and taste the wine and score them on a hundred-point system. Now, realistically, it's a bloody 20-point system, but anyway. So 85 is bronze, yeah. 85 to 89 is bronze, yeah. 90 to 94 is silver, 95 and oh higher is gold. 80 78 is considered faulty. Um, and just move on.
SPEAKER_02:So we all just agree that it's a stupid system to begin with. Like why we're starting at 7. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:But when we use a 20 point when we use a 20-point system, there were half points.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And we we really only rated from 13 to 20. So we were using a 14-point system, really. I mean, yeah, there is no ideal system. Parker sort of introduces a hundred-point system, but yeah, the the point is uh just it's stupid. But 100 looks good, doesn't it? You know, it's all that it does. That's true. Yeah, so yeah, you you judge you go through so 80 80 to 84, there's usually something not quite right. It's not faulty, but it may not be in balance is the line. Right.
SPEAKER_03:So but so do people so do are our judges going something not quite right? I give it 83. Or is there like a system? So there's um no, no, there's no system. I mean, I've I've clearly judged, but I feel like I need to ask the questions for the people.
SPEAKER_05:So like on the 20-point system, there was a system, it was three points for colour, yeah, seven for nose, yeah, and ten for palate.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's is it if we're talking objectivity, it seems to make the most sense.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, absolutely. And that was what we were taught at university. With the hundred-point system, I'm sure someone has broken it down, but I doubt that we don't score it. So back in the day, we used to score out of three and then out of seven for for nose, and then out of ten for pallet. That was like how we were taught at university. That's all gone by the wayside with the 100-point system. So, really, you're not picking a number, you know, where you sit on 88 points or where you sit on an 87-point wine. I mean, what is the difference between 85 and 89? So 85 to 89 points, bronze medals, are really good correct. There's no faults with them. They're varietally expressive, um, and they do the job. You know, and depending on how how expensive they are, they can be incredible value for money. Now, between 85 and 89 for me, 85 is just it's just hitting that mark. It's what I would say fine. 89, it's got a little bit more interest to it, a little bit more complexity, but it may be a little bit short, it may not have um as much flavor intensity or complexity. There may be something a little bit out of balance so that I don't go to silver. And then you, you know, you mark between 90 and 94.
SPEAKER_03:I'm quite famous for saying that 94 is a bit just like I remember you saying that because I've judged it, so that you were the chair.
SPEAKER_05:Like just give it gold, just give it gold, and it'll come back to the table. So once all the judges have tasted it, they sit down together and you've usually got a panel chair, the boss, and then a couple of judges and maybe one or two associates. So you sit down and you go through all the golds and you recall those golds. So they so you retaste all the gold wines. You then those wines are then randomized. So you don't know, they're not in the same position they were when you first tasted them. So say you said particularly, oh shit, number two was fantastic. I want to, I'm gonna high point that again. You don't know where they're gonna appear in the randomized callbacks.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So then we go through all the other wines. You know, if it doesn't get a score, we just move on. We'll average the the judge's scores. Um, sometimes, you know, a judge may have given it a wine 94 and someone's given it 82. And so we sit down and discuss it and say, well, where do we think it's sits? And usually the judges will say, Oh, look, I'm happy for it to have a bronze. Um, or I really don't want that wine to get up. So it just it really just depends on it it's it's a it's a discussion around it. You know, we don't, as you know, in a wine show, you've got a lot of wines to get through. So time is very important. Part of the rules of being a judge is you don't stuff around, you actually get on with it fairly quickly because I do remember there being a particular group taking a long time.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:And you were like, Look, I mean that's it's a fine balance between educating your associates, but also particularly in shows, you have um sponsors, and in that case, we missed out on a sponsor event because we couldn't we didn't make the time. So the the chair of judges has is balancing all of that sort of stuff. And that's one instance that always doesn't always happen, but you've often got dinner to get to or and then you just the the stewards want to clean up to reset for the next day. You know, they worked 18-hour days during these things. So the the wine show system came about to improve the breed. That was the whole point. So the first thing we're looking at is it's faulty. Now you've always got these days technical tasters, judges. So you'll have winemakers and you'll have more consumer-driven. I kind of sit halfway between. I've recently just judged the Rutherglen wine show, one of the best shows. I think probably the best show I've ever judged in my entire life. It was awesome. Just everything about it was amazing. Anyway, if people are going, oh, there's VA, there's VA, there's VA, and I'm going, there's not bloody VA or whatever. No one will care. But we've got that battle of the technical.
SPEAKER_03:So we get people who are hooked on looking for faults rather than yeah. That's right.
SPEAKER_05:And and yeah, look, if if it's a little bit VA, I don't really care.
SPEAKER_03:So judges for wine shows um are what going to be mainly winemakers um with money growing in. So let's talk about who who are these people who we're trusting with our what we're gonna drink.
SPEAKER_05:At the national, at the big shows, you'll uh have a chair of judges and that'll be split between winemakers, a chair of a panel chair, sorry, of each panel that'll be split between um good psalms, wine journalists um or winemakers. The best way, I think, to set up a panel is you have one technical judge and one, if you can, commercial judge, so someone who's a buyer or whatever. And it's always yeah, it's always really good if you've got someone with a little bit of writing journalistic background because they can communicate. Because at the end of the day, what is the point of those shows unless we can communicate to the results? And what is the end? Get people to buy the booze. So it's good to have those communicators. It's interesting. This is rather than show, I was judging with an associate and she said to me, I just love your tasting notes because they weren't I've learned not to write as I would as a winemaker now. You know, um I I write, oh, lovely fresh fruit and or the absolutely delicious. I'll even write food and tasting notes that I'll be great with steak or need food or whatever. Yeah, of course I do. Um, because people who enter these shows they want feedback. Yeah. And when once we're done with a class, we give a class comment. So the panel chair will say, What are your overall impressions of this class? So we'll all say, you know, great Chardonnays, or boy, people should be entering their wines younger or more youthful, or hold back on the sweetness, and you know, just general comments to people, but each individual person can get their actual the written remarks. So you've got to be very careful. You've got to don't be an asshole, basically, ever.
SPEAKER_03:So let me summarize. We have a group of people who are chosen for being good in their field. And there might be winemakers, wine writers, whatever. Um, to become a judge, you normally have to go through the associate system, which is kind of like a traineeship, which is what I was doing. Um, to so you go through this kind of like associate traineeship, and then you become a judge. You are part of one of um, I don't know, 10 people or something, and you have, or depending on the size of the show, you might have like 80 wines or 50 or 30 wines in front of you in your bracket. They're all blind. Um, stewards are the people who pour all the wine and organize the whole thing, who are just these incredible people who manage to keep everything on track. Yeah. Um and it's all blind. And it's all blind, is is probably the key thing here. Um, so it's panels of experts from different disciplines. Yep. It's all blind. And they are there is a time press. So there, you know, you're doing a lot of wine in a short amount of time. I remember that being very stressful. I think that's the key thing that people need to know about.
SPEAKER_05:Then just for the trophies. Or then trophies, which in each class, um, you'll you'll award a top gold. Yeah. So you'll say that wine is 96 points.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Uh and then that gets brought back for the trophy junk tasting. So say um you'll have a best Chardonnay. So there might have been two class two groups of Chardonnay, or there might be a few classes, so older Chardonnays, it might have been a simple class. So they get put together and you'll you're putting forward your best wine and you'll you'll just rank it. And then it's all ranked across everyone, across all the judges. Associates points don't count, only judges. Um, and then it's sort of a knockout system. So you've got your best chardonnay, your best auignon, your best Riesling, and then you can put those together to come up with best white. And again, it's a ranking system. So you rank the top one three, two, one, or three, two, zero, or two, one, zero, whatever. Um, and then the top white and the top red come up against each other for wine of show. Yeah. So it's it's kind of a it is a knockout system. And that's always in every show that I've ever done, that is done the morning after all the judging's done. So the palates are fresh.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and you're not just oh by the end of the day. You're not exhausted. I don't want to taste another wine.
SPEAKER_05:50 muskets at Rutherglen.
SPEAKER_03:Someone put a corona in my hand right now.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And then the dinner was 100% fortified wines. No, Meg. Amazing. Yeah, you do love a fortified actually. Oh, but just as well.
SPEAKER_03:I make I would wry it if I judged Rutherglen wines all day and then got given fortified with dinner.
SPEAKER_05:Well, the most important thing to remember is at the end of the day, there's always beer. There's always beer. As long as there's beer.
SPEAKER_03:If I have a beer break origin, then maybe about it. They had beer and little packets of chips, which is really cute.
SPEAKER_05:I know. So cute.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So um, you just need a pallet refresher before you go into a dinner of 40 fortified wines.
SPEAKER_03:Nothing makes you want to be more than tasting wine all day. Okay, I'm gonna cut us off there because we have so much to get through today. But the main thing that you need to remember for wine shows is that points are given and trophies are made by panels of people. So these people are either known as like summer leads or educators or winemakers, um, and they have gone through a really vigorous kind of stewardship traineeship type program to be able to become a judge. Now, when they are tasting the wines, they are done in groups. So a whole bunch of people are tasting every group at the same time. They come together and combine results and kind of argue it out to arrive at each score. Um, but definitely the most time is given to deciding what are the golds and what are the trophies within each bracket. Importantly, every single one of these wines is so blind, and we have complete assurance that no one knows which wine is because there are people called stewards who pour the wines before every single class. And so you know with complete assurity that wine show awards and trophies and points are all happening completely blind by a panel. The last thing to remember though is these people are tasting sometimes 30, sometimes 50, sometimes 80 wines in a bracket. They are going through and there is time pressure, there is crunch, and they are tasting wine after wine after wine. And it is in a really clinical environment and they're getting tired. They're all the key points you need to know about wine trays. Probably the last thing, actually, is that as Meg said, there's not that many golds. Um, there is definitely a system that ensures that only the top of the top of the top really get that gold and that most wines are gonna come out as bronze and they make sure of that. So it look, it is a pretty independent, pretty panel-oriented system, but you're tasting a lot of wine, very blind, maybe in both sense of the words. So that's it for wine chews. What we're gonna do now is head over to our top media in Australia. We're gonna talk about both the real review and holiday wine companion. We're gonna kick off with the real review, and thank you so much to Hewan Hook, who jumped on the mic with me literally within a couple of hours of us deciding this was gonna be the episode today. So, Hewan Hook, if you haven't heard of him, he is one of Australia's most respected wine critics. He's got over 40 years experience. He's a journalist, a wine judge, he's an author. He is known for his rigorous, uh like independent assessments, and he's got a really great, like approachable writing style, which I personally really enjoy. Um, he's written it for the Sydney Morning Herald, Gourmet Traveler Wine, Decanta. He's been awarded Wine Communicator of the Year by Wine Communicators of Australia. Now, in 2016, Hewin co-founded the Real Review. So it is known as an independent wine review platform. It's become one of the most trusted sources of wine ratings and commentary in Australia and also now New Zealand. So Real Review uses a team of critics. Um, but look, we're gonna take it to Hewan. We're gonna ask him all the questions that you need to know to understand if you pick up a bottle and it says we've been rated, what, 95, 97, 80, whatever it is. If they've been rated by the Real Review, what does that mean? Who tasted it? How did it get that result? So when you were creating Real Review, how come you decided to use a point system instead of just like description and storytelling?
SPEAKER_06:Well, uh, Max Allen never has never scored a wine in his life, I don't think, and he's still getting through a very, very good career as a wine critic and wine writer without using any kind of scoring system or rating system. Um some people don't believe in it at all and really, you know, really strongly don't believe in it. Um I prefer not to have to use it myself. I would hope that we were able to Yeah, I would hope that we were able to communicate through how we write about a wine and describe a wine how much we liked it without having to use a number. But the sim the simple reality of it is that people and that includes the trade and the wine industry, all love a number.
SPEAKER_03:That is so interesting to hear you say it that you wish you didn't have to use it. So is it something that is it's it's a demand then by consumers and trade? Do you think it is something that's genuinely let's talk about consumers? Do you think it's genuinely helpful for consumers to have that number?
SPEAKER_06:Oh yeah, definitely. That's that's that's feedback. Um and I think and we constantly, or I constantly, anyway, uh are trying to um hammer home the point, but don't just take notice of the number. Read the taste because I mean let's let's put it as simply as possible. If you take half a dozen wines that all rated ninety-five points, which is a gold medal in a wine show, you might not like them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:What sort of wines do you want? They might be very good examples of what they are, but they might not be to your taste. So that's why it's more important to actually read the tasting note than look at the number.
SPEAKER_03:So let's talk about how um you end up with a number at the real review. Um let's start with the tasting panel. How do you choose those people? Where do they come from?
SPEAKER_06:Uh well let's um yeah. Uh the people that uh have that I know that have come across my path, perhaps through the trade, through the industry, through wine show judging, through all sorts of ways. Um and I usually know them before we sign them up. Um we don't sign up people completely, you know, unknown. Um and they need to have some sort of um um track record of tasting. So ideally they can taste wine as well as write about it. This is this is important. Not not everybody who's a good taster is a good writer, and not every good writer is a good taste.
SPEAKER_03:And is are you looking for are they following like a format to be able to arrive at a score thus that most of your taste that if if they tasted the same wine, should they give it a similar score because you're all following a similar thing? Or is it more everyone has their own style and subjectivity, so everyone might give a different score to a different wine?
SPEAKER_06:Um, look, I think that because we've we've all got a background in formal wine judging, we probably are pretty close to each other in terms of how we would make a wine or score a wine. Okay, um but everybody is different. Everybody's palate is different. I like to think of the human palate as like the the prints on your fingers. They're different for every human being. And so no one's gonna agree agree one hundred percent on anything. But you can get close. And it's remarkable how close you can get if you look at wine show results and see which wines come up again and again and again and get also rated highly by critics. Um there are there are some wines that really uh that shine from all across all platforms.
SPEAKER_03:And how is it decided which person tastes which wines are submitted and then are they done blind or can they see the wine?
SPEAKER_06:The idea is uh well firstly the choice of the wines. We we don't work the way some other people work, where they divide up the country into regions and allocate regions to certain tasters. We don't do that. Um you receive boxes of wine um which have been uh put together in similar for for their similarities, so that we uh a dozen bottles of Chardonnay, a dozen bottles of reefs, a dozen bottles of shreds, and so on. Um so because as in the wine chase system, it's best to taste wines when when they're with similar wines for comparative purposes. So people can either get someone to do it for them or do it themselves and then blindfold the bottles. Um and you know, if you're doing two dozen at a time, there's no way you can remember exactly what's in where. So I think that um that's where objectivity comes into it. We don't have skin in the game. So it's not as if we saw a wine that we have some allegiance to in amongst two dozen. We you know, we might be tempted to remember where that was. Um that's where you know it's important that we don't have any allegiance to any uh to any producers.
SPEAKER_03:And so what I'm hearing about the um about the nature of whether they're blind or not, they're not necessarily not necessarily a system to make sure they're tasted blind, but you are just um really strict on objectivity and and ask the tasters to remain really objective.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, some people will have staff who can um uh s serve the wines for them. Stu Knox, for example, has a restaurant with staff and he can get those people to serve the wines if you if if it suits his daily work plan. Um it's pretty uh it's not hard. Some people put each bottle in a ba in a brown paper bag, you know, and get really serious about it. That's another way of doing it, making sure that you're not being led by any view of the label. But having said that, Mel, I I always say to my uh people that um it's great to taste it's important to taste the wine blind on the first pass, but after you've finished and you've made your notes and you've scored the wines and you then you you look at them and you reveal them, um it's important to go through them and make sure you haven't made any terrible mistakes because everybody's human, you know, we're all fallible and occasionally miss something. So you can then look at the wines and say, Well, that's a famous wine that I normally give a really good score to. I really damned it this time. I better have another look at that.
SPEAKER_03:So is there a way that wineries can pay? And and can their descriptions or their scores be affected by what wineries um can pay?
SPEAKER_06:No. Um we try very hard to avoid any possibility of that. You know, there are plenty of critics out there in other countries especially who charge to taste the wine. And um we don't like the idea of that. It's it's it doesn't sit well with us. Yeah. So we don't charge you to taste your wine and to judge it. Um but our everything we do is published online. And our database of reviews is subscriber only.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I really like that it's up to the consumer to pay if you want that score because you're not charging the wineries to get their wines tasted, which even I mean, wineries even pay to go in wine shows, so that's pretty great. And then um, I guess wineries can pay to be to go into like advertising or events or something, but in terms of the raw score and description they're given, that's just untouched by money.
SPEAKER_06:It is, and and I make it my business not to know who our subscribers are.
SPEAKER_03:Alrighty, we're gonna leave it there, but thank you so much, Hewan, for jumping on and having a chat to me at very little notice. Uh, it is really, really valuable to understand from your perspective how it all works at the real review. Next up, we are going to talk about the Holiday Wine Companion. Now, I have to say the team tried really hard to be to talk to me today, considering I gave them absolutely no notice. Um, someone was wine show judging, someone else was on a plane. Didn't end up happening. So I am going to take you through everything to the best of my ability. Um, if you want a bit more information, Katrina Butler, who is the tasting manager there, did a really good podcast with Holly Formosa. So that is called the Growth Edit. Check that out if you want a bit more information. But the footnotes of Halliday Wine Companion are James Halliday is absolutely legendary, iconic in Australian wine. He started the Australian Wine Companion in 1986. Now, at the time, it was a printed guide, it was just like a booklet that reviewed and rated Australian wines. Um, it became really big and then um came on board the website, prescription service, uh awards, events, all that kind of thing. So it's really quite big now, and there's a lot of digital involved. James is no longer there, um, but there is a really strong leadership team. There are really strong tasters, and it is still going really, really well and is still very, very trusted. Now, in terms of the tasting team, I would say it is a similar calibra to the real review. Any of these people I would trust to choose a bottle of wine for me. They have such comprehensive backgrounds, they are really, really strong tasters and great people. So, look, if we're comparing team with team, I can't say there's a huge amount of difference. Where the biggest difference lies is actually how the bottles are allocated. So, as we heard when we were talking to Hewen, what they do is all the bottles come in and they are start to put um by category. So all the Chardonnays start going together and the Soviet Blanc start going together. People come in to get their wines and they are just given a box, and it has wines that are somehow similar. And they go home and taste them. They can be from anywhere in Australia. Now, how they do it at Halliday Wine Companion is they have regional experts because their philosophy is that regionality really matters and that maybe comparing a Yarrow Valley Pinot and comparing a Tasmania Pinot is comparing apples and oranges. And should they really be compared one against one another? They don't think so. So they think that by having a regional expert, they are going to find the gems within every single region. And then once those are found by the regional expert, at the next level, they put them up against each other. So have a look into it. Choose which way suits you best and what kind of people you want to follow based on that philosophy. Both use the 100-point scale, which is based off the wine show system. They have kind of similar awards, a massive, massive reach, and look equally have really good reviews, but also Halliday has excellent editorial as well. So in every other measure, it's really quite similar. The last thing that, to be honest, I can't decipher in a really clear way is whether the wines are tasted completely blind. So when we spoke to Hewyn, he said that it is a recommendation or perhaps an expectation that tasters will take it upon themselves to taste blind. But there isn't like a formal way of making sure that happens, like there is in wine shows. From what I can tell, it seems pretty similar in Halliday. They're receiving bottles, they're probably seeing the label. They might have a recommendation to pour the wines blind, but there's not really any way to have that assurance. We are now going to have a look at Langdon's classification. This is really interesting because I've always known about Langton's wine classification, and it wasn't until I went down this path today that I even realized how it came to be. And the answer is absolutely fascinating. So I am so excited to take you through this chat with Michael Anderson, who is Langton's head of auctions. Now, his job is basically to go out and find those wines that get into auction. He has tasted some of the best stuff in Australia. And he's gonna tell us exactly how those iconic wines of Langton's classification end up there. So thank you so much for joining me, Michael. Uh obviously, Langton's classification is super iconic. Every winery wants their wines on there. So how do they end up there?
SPEAKER_00:Everything that we do at Langton's is data-led when it comes to our classification. So it's not as simple as me sitting down with the team and choosing uh 100 wines that I simply love. Um the classification the classification itself has been around um since 1990 or thereabouts. Um and it was basically based off the the Bordeaux classification, which is um you know the 1855 classification, which at the time classified the five most expensive bottles of wine um first growth and so on and so forth from there. Our classification comes all about through data. So we're obviously the biggest fine wine auction house in the country, um, and we have the richest data, which basically means we sell the most of it. So we look at the data and we see what people are bidding on. So what's getting the most bids, what's selling for the most over its reserve, what's selling the most consistently and clearing. So you look at a wine like year kind of Chardonnay, which clears it about 100%, which means when we take a bottle up, it sells 100% of the time, which is crazy, right? No wine really should do that. And it sells for a crazy amount of money over the reserve most times as well. So to get on the classification, you have to have the data to back it up. And basically, we sit down every five years and we choose five years because we need to accumulate enough data to make the classification accurate, in our opinion. So if you did it every year, you find outliers. We don't really want outliers, we want raw data that's really, really strong. So um, every five years we sit down with the data, we look at it, we see what's clearing well, what's going for high prices, um, what customers are feeding on, and how regularly they're bidding, um, and how much wine is moving through. And and we pull that data out and it gives us the list of wines that are the top and most traded wines in the country every five years.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. Is that what it was intentionally made to signify, the most traded wine, or is it meant to signify like the best wine?
SPEAKER_00:Um it's a bit of both. And I think that one sort of leads into the other, I guess. Um particularly when it started. You know, there was only a handful of wines on there early. So I think maybe 20 or 25 wines were on the first classification. Don't put my um don't quote me on that. Um, but that was when the the wine trade in Australia was really in its infancy. Particularly fine wine. So I think Grange was up there by itself and everything flowed underneath it, including Hill of Grace and those sorts of wines. I don't think it was ever about um tradability per se, just of 100% all about how much is being traded. It was just a data point that we had at the time. And I think, you know, if it's being traded, it's probably a pretty good bottle of wine. So generally, people buy a six-pack of these things and and they they drink three because they're so fantastic, and they sell off the other three and make a little bit of money if they can. Um, not every wine appreciates in value, and certainly certainly not every wine on the classification appreciates in value. It's just how much it gets traded between other wine lovers. Um, yeah, to answer your question, I I don't think it was ever set about to be a commodities piece. It was it was what the best wines in the country at the time were. And those sort of things, those things go hand in hand.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so when people are looking to buy a bottle of wine, do you think that looking up Langdon's classification is is helping consumers kind of make that decision?
SPEAKER_00:I think um the classification itself is quite aspirational. Uh I think the wine trade in Australia is quite rich. You know, you can start at a quite reasonably priced bottle of wine that's really, really good and move through to the likes of Hill of Grace and Rocket Basketrest and Grange and all those sorts of things. Um I don't think, I mean, obviously it depends on how much money you have to spend. Um, some of the wines on the classification are the country's most expensive wines.
SPEAKER_03:Because they're not vintage specific, are they?
SPEAKER_00:No, they're not. They're not vintage specific. So, you know, Grange goes on there, but we trade every vintage from 51 all the way through to current release. Um I think the classification is a wonderful place to look for wineries. And what I mean by that is if um Mount Langy Gear and Langy Shiraz is on there, you'd assume that that their top wine, which it is. Um, but everything they make underneath probably has the same amount of attention and detail that goes into the wine. So um we have an option that we do every now and again, which is classified wineries. It's not just the wines that are on the classification, it's all the other wines that come through our system from those wineries because we think they're pretty great as well. So if you ever wanted to use the Langton's classification to choose wines just off a shelf at a bottle shop, and the top, top wines are out of your price point, certainly look for those wineries because they generally speaking, if the wineries produce a great top wine, they'll produce wine you know really well for the whole range.
SPEAKER_03:That is such a good tip. So, Michael, before I let you go, I have to ask if Langton's classification is built on the most traded wines, how do we know that it reflects wine quality rather than factors like marketing or brand type? So, does this list really capture the best possible Australian wines?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think they do. And and it's a good point because we don't really use marketing as a tool for our auction space per se. The auctions happen because people send us wine. We're effectively just the intermediary to take a vendor's wines to the market. So we own none of the wines. So you send me 10 boxes of wine, I just put them online for you, and the customers go and choose those. We don't go out with any great amount of email detail. We don't go and say, hey, this is there, you should definitely go and bid on this. We've just become a place where people can go and find wines which that are back vintage, that have been stored really well. Most wine shops sell you wines at a new release, right? So it's important that the option space is a place where people can come who want a bit of age on their wines. Um but it's a good point. I I mean, I think if you look at the list, it sort of typifies and underlines the quality of the Australian wine trade at the moment. I don't think there's any real surprises. There are bits and bobs that you have to adhere to to get on the classification, including you need to have made 10 vintages. So there's some absolutely cracking wines that's out there in the market at the moment that could easily be in either level of the classification, but they've only been produced for uh five vintages or they've only got produced every year. So some of the bin range from or the special bin range from Penfolds, they'll never make it on the classification because they're not consistently made every year. So one of the greatest wines in Australia is the BIN60A. They made it in 1962 and 2004, I believe. That will never make a classification because it's just a random, they've made it twice. Um, it'll never get on the classification. It's a consistency piece.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, why yeah, why is that a rule?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think that's a good question. It's a rule because you have to. I I think we we reward continuity more than anything. So wines are it's it's it's nice to have wines outside of you know the classification as well. The classification is is effectively a form guide for people buying who want to buy wines that they uh you know their peers think are fantastic, so not just a great investment opportunity, but really, really good in the glass as well. Um there can be other wines outside of it. It's not the be all to end all, it's just a place that you start if you have a bit of money and you want to go into the wine trade and look at some great bottles of wine from the Australian wine market.
SPEAKER_03:When you say have a bit of money, are there any wines selling for actually like a decent price on Langdon's if you look on the auction?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we sell bottles of some of the greatest Rieslings in the country are$30,$40 a bottle at auction. Uh, I don't think that, you know, we stay with fine wine, and fine is very much in the eye of the beholder. I you know, it costs us a lot to handle wines and get them into the system. So when we're sort of looking at$15,$20 bottles of Riesling that I know to be fantastic, it's like, well, probably not going to make much on that one, but some of the greatest wines in the country are those really old, well-handled Rieslings from Eden Valley and Clare Valley and those sorts of things. That you know, it's price is inconsequential in effect. I think that there's so much great wine being sold around the$20 and$30 price point, even at auction. I mean, we get wines coming in from the 80s that are going for$30.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_00:And that's just wow. So it's worth taking the risk on wines like that. I think so. Yeah, there's plenty on there. We always have about 10,000 bottles up. So there's some absolute gems.
SPEAKER_03:I'm at risk of forming a new bad habit here. Um look, Michael, this has been awesome. Um, this has been uh such a good overview of Langdon's. I've actually learned so much. I've always been aware of Langdon's, but I never really understood that that's how it came to be. So I'm really glad that our listeners can and take that away and know how to use it. Um, we had a chat before this, and we'd actually love to get you on for a full episode because what you should is fascinating. But um, until then, thank you so much for joining us. And if anyone's interested, definitely go check out LinkedIn's, check out the classification, and definitely check out the auction, which I currently have in the second browser as we speak.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_03:Now, next up, we are going to talk to Max Allen. Uh, Hewan did refer to Max Allen when he was chatting because Max famously doesn't give points. Now, Max Allen is most known for his column in the Australian Financial Review, but he's also written uh quite a few books about wine, which I absolutely love. Um, I love his writing. I figure that we can't talk about points and rankings and classifications without having a look at the other side of the coin, which is what if you're just using words and what if you're just storytelling? Is that as effective or is it more effective? Don't know. Let's have a chat to Max and you can see what you think. Thanks, Max. Okay, so Max, can you tell us why you don't give scores?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've um been writing for 30 odd years um and have been able to hold down a regular weekly column in in a national newspaper for all that time without scoring. So um I I'd figured that that it's it's really not that important for me. Um I've always been much more interested in the stories behind wine than than the uh you know the the taste, I suppose. You know, if I could just write about the stories of uh about the people and the places and and the history, I'd be happy, you know, to not actually write write wine reviews at all. But obviously I understand that people, you know, want to have recommendations for wine. And and if if the purpose of writing about wine is to say, I've tried something that I really think is amazing, I think you should try it too, which is like the basis of of wine reviewing, I suppose, in some ways, um, then you don't need to attach a score, you know, because the whole the whole point of me putting that review in the paper, whether it's online or or actually old-fashioned in print, uh uh is to say, well, you know, if it's worth reviewing and it's in the paper, then then that's enough, you know. Um so I fundamentally think that you can't reduce the complexity and beauty of wine to a score. So I'm philosophically opposed to it. Um and I also think that once you start scoring wine, you potentially open up um uh pathways to you know those scores being manipulated uh in in many different ways.
SPEAKER_03:Do you think that the story in behind a wine and and things beyond like say if you were tasting it blood and just looking at the technical components, do you think that that genuinely adds to the enjoyment when you're drinking it?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Absolutely. Um hugely. I mean, I'm sure you I'm sure you've done this where uh, you know, I I've certainly done this with tastings where you you're talking about various different wines, and there might be a wine in the in that uh group of wines that you're presenting to people. And there's no doubt that if you are more emotionally engaged with the wine that you are communicating about, then that then people respond to that in a more positive way. Um so I I think I think the the background uh wine does not exist in a vacuum.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh wine only exists in the context of people and sharing knowledge and sharing pleasure and sharing joy and uh and that that this idea that somebody just sitting in a cold room analyzing the liquid in the glass and then reducing that analysis to a score seems to just disconnect what wine is all about for me. Um so uh having said that, even though I don't score for my columns in the financial review, uh, and prior to that for the Australian, um, I do score for the wines that I review for Jansis Robinson. No, that that is only a relatively recent thing. That's only in the last couple of years, and that came about because my editor, Tara Thomas, um at Jansis Robinson convinced me to start scoring for them because a lot of people come to the website, uh, jansisrobinson.com through the wine reviews rather than the articles. And because the wines that I was reviewing for Jansis until relatively recently didn't have scores attached, they weren't appearing in the same way. So as a result, a lot of the people who went to the website weren't aware that I was writing about Australian wine for the website. So I have started scoring out of 20 for Jansis for that reason, and that has meant that I am more visible to the people on that website, if that makes sense. So I had people when I start when I started scoring, I had people say to me here in Australia, oh, I see you started writing for Jansis Robinson. And I'm like, well, no, I've been doing it for 10 years. I've only just started scoring. Now I was comfortable doing that partly because the idea that all my precious words were being ignored, um, because I wasn't scoring because there's ego involved, right? Yeah, yeah. But also I think that if you are going to score, then the smaller the number, the better. So in an ideal world, the five-star system, which is what a lot of newspapers use for, I know I'm very old-fashioned still talking about newspapers. What of a lot of media outlets still use for like, you know, shows or TV shows or displays or whatever. And I think that's because uh so 20 uh scoring out of 20 is kind of uh I I would really struggle to have done that, made that decision if it was out of a hundred. I think there's a flaw in the 100-point system. But you know, in an ideal world, I'd use five stars if I was going to score at all, because that seems to me to better reflect the way we actually experience wine. You know, when I'm involved in when I was involved in with wine shows, I would say to wine judges that a silver medal, sorry, a bronze medal is a wine you would order by the glass, silver medal is a wine that you would be happy to buy by the bottle, gold medal is a wine you buy by the case, and a trophy is a wine that you would sell your grandmother to buy as many cases as you possibly can. And I know that's the wrong way to think about it for the. No, it makes much more sense. It makes a lot of sense, but at the same time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it acknowledges that wine is a fundamentally subjective feel. Now I know the whole point of scoring and the whole point of wine shows is to instill this myth of objectivity that even if you don't like the Sauvignon Blanc in the glass, you can still give it a gold medal because you recognize that, or 98 points, or whatever the score is, because you recognize that it's a particularly well-made example of that, or it's a it's a wine that has zero faults, or whatever you choose. Um and I understand that, but fundamentally at the end of the day, there has to be an element of preference and personal opinion.
SPEAKER_03:And so then if you think someone uh is looking for a wine to serve at the dinner party they're doing the next night, um, what do you think is the best way with all these options out there? What should they do to help them determine what wine should I get?
SPEAKER_01:I'm an old-fashioned believer in people talking to people. Um and uh what I would do is I would go to a I'm gonna say independent wine shop because they tend to employ people that, you know, uh a highly regarded independent wine shop, if if you're prepared, if you're in a position to be able to actually get out of your house and walk somewhere and talk to somebody, uh, or even do this online, yeah, and say, I like this. What can what can you recommend that is like this?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because I think that's you know, so I I you know, let's say, you know, I really I I'm looking for a$50 Pinot or whatever it is. I w I've got a special dinner party, I really feel like some Pinot. Um, what can you recommend?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And talk to the person in the shop. And that person in the shop will have presumably done all the pre uh the the pre-research for you and read all the scores and and read the wine show results and all those things and and filtered that through to an opinion, but also will have physically, you'd like to think, tasted a lot of the wines and be aware. And this this if you like this, you'll like this principle.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Which is on a very human basis. That that's the way I would like to think would be the best way to do it. Awesome.
SPEAKER_03:And I know that's crazy because you know, I'm uh, you know, doing myself out of a job there, but I don't think I do think I thought your answer was gonna be just sign up to the AFR.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, no, no. I th I maybe you should do that too. I mean, um that's definitely the case, you know. Uh read as widely as you can and get as many different opinions as you can and see what the see if you can filter out the uh the information from all that. It's hard work. That makes it sound like hard work though, doesn't it? It makes it sound like we see I I think if you're really into wine, that's the fun of it, is is is is reading about it and learning about it and talking to other people about it.
SPEAKER_03:And there's probably a difference between looking for inspiration for just different wines to try and actually having a specific scenario where you need a bottle to match something or whatever. In that case, maybe it is kind of looking at scores or whatever. But like, so for instance, part of why I love your column is you'll often talk about something I haven't even heard of, or you'll tell a story of something that I've had never heard, and I didn't even thought that I felt like drinking that this weekend. And all of a sudden I'm like inspired to go get it and experience what you said. So I think that there's probably a place for both.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I hope so. Yeah. I hope so, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Max. It was really, really good getting your point of view on this. And um, as we say, if you do want to read about Max's wine's uh Australian Financial Review, or you've written about a trillion books as well. Where is the best place for people to find your books?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, you can find them in in all uh well, no, I'd like to say all good bookshops, but then they're certainly online. So books like The Future Makers You Might Struggle With was published 15 years ago. But um Intoxicating, 10 Drinks That Shaped Australia, and Alternative Reality, um, how Australian Wine Changed Course uh are both relatively recent and should still be out there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, awesome. I um I loved intoxicating.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, you should blow my skull off. That one quickly explain what it was.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's it's uh it's a cocktail. Which is a uh uh a mixture of by some by a crazy governor of of Tasmania who would challenge his underlings to drinking sessions of this uh particularly vicious brew, um, a blend of, I can't remember, rum and beer and uh brandy and and uh yeah, and it became a notorious drink on the goldfields in the 1850s when it used to contain things like I don't know, gunpowder and cocaine, or I can't remember.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I'm obsessed. We and Meg, I'm so gonna try that on an upcoming episode. Anyway, thank you so much, Max. It was really great talking to you.
SPEAKER_01:No worries, thank you.
SPEAKER_03:All right, Meg. We have now heard across the board from all these different classifications and ranking systems and journalists, and in essence, there is so many people out there trying to tell us what to drink. What we'll like. What we'll like. Who should our listeners believe? In your opinion.
SPEAKER_05:Um their own palettes at the end of the day. I mean, to get guidance, you know, you go into a wine store and there's all the bling on the bottles. And I was listening to a really interesting podcast with Katrina Butler, who works for Halliday. Um she love her. Yeah, Holly Formosa interviewed her and it was just brilliant. And she was saying that of the 7,1215 wines they reviewed in 2025, 60 got 98 or over. That's all. But most wines get a silver because they don't publish bronzes. So I think look at the styles of wine that you like, and then look at reviews of those styles and wine shows. So if you like Yaravelli Chardonnay, look at the results from the Yarrow Valley show. Don't look at it from the national shows. Look at it from the Yarrow Valley wine show because it's tasted in context.
SPEAKER_03:That actually brings me back to something that I just have realized that we didn't cover when you spoke to wine shows. What is the difference between a big national fancy show? Like, if yeah, if you see a smaller regional show, is it going to be less reputable than a national show?
SPEAKER_05:The national shows attract the better judges. Now, I'm using that term in inverted commas. You can't say this. This is an audio medium. Um simply because what is a better judge? So it attracts the more star names in the industry. So the the Matt Harrops of the world, the Sam Conyws of the world, the Tom Carsons, um, all these really lauded Sarah Crow, lauded winemakers. My complaint, which I've made before, um is that if these people are being rotated across all these national shows, are we just getting the same wines regurgitated over and over and over again? Because as in one of the interviews that you did, I think it was Hugh and Hook, everyone has a natural preference. Um and a natural style that they they go towards. There's a sort of a trendy style as well. But I think regional shows are really important. If you particularly like wines from the orange region, look at what they've voted. They know their wine.
SPEAKER_03:Because they know their wine.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and they won't only have just judges from their region, they'll have judges from outside the region. Like just with Brother Glenn, I was brought in, I'm assuming, Jen Pfeiffer can correct me on this, as a cool climate kind of judge. Because I they didn't put me on GRIF.
SPEAKER_03:No, I'm sorry, Meg, you were brought in as a big name.
SPEAKER_05:Well, no, I was I was I think because I'm more cool climate, because there's a judge who from Tassie, she's a winemaker, she's very good. Um, she's moving out, and so they needed someone from a cool climate.
SPEAKER_03:But I I disagree so hard. I think they're like Meg's a master of wine, she understands consumers really well because she has a wine podcast. Like, I think you were brought in possibly for that more than cool climate, but consuming of ticking lots of boxes.
SPEAKER_05:I I I don't know that what consumers like necessarily gets up in these wine shows. That's the thing, it's the best in class. It's how the wine is showing, and I think you and Hook said the same thing: how the wine is showing on the day. So I think regional wine shows are really, really good for if you like a particular region. Go for it. You know, Yarrow Valley Wine Show, look at the fantastic wines that got up. Decent Riesling, you know, probably most people have never heard of them. Medhurst Um Rose, Medhurst Shiraz wine, so you know, nice broad spectrum.
SPEAKER_03:Did you just say decent Riesling? Is that a brand?
SPEAKER_05:Decent uh uh his next song. Um he did pulp a couple of years ago at when we did it at the pub. I haven't heard of that. And yeah, he's got he's got the last reason, which has actually been pulled out that used to be at Long Galley, and he made a reason. It was stunning, had a little bit of residual sugar, yeah, great style. So look at your regional shows, national shows uh you know Melbourne. The Jimmy Watson is what everyone looks at. Everyone wants to win the Jimmy Watson, and Jimmy Watson is a trophy for the best one-year-old red. Now that's great if you're into drinking one-year-old reds. What if you want to drink wine that lays down for 10 or 15 years? Okay. So um my recommendation is look at read across this the spectrum and taste a range of wines and see who aligns with you. Real review might align with you.
SPEAKER_03:Can we quickly chat about the difference between real review and Halliday? Because that is fascinating. So the simple fact that let's quickly talk about the fact that Halliday has a taster in each region who is like a regional specialist. So it's tasted in context. In context. And Hewan goes, no, no. Um, you should be compared against other benchmarks of the category. So if he gets a bunch of Chardonnays in a bunch of Chardonnays. Will be sent no matter where they're from, they'll be sent to someone to taste. Like, how do you think that changes the score?
SPEAKER_05:I think both are valid. I'd like to know what is the best Yarrow Chardonnay. So I have a look, and you'll see that Oak Ridge's Fundra and Diamond comes up probably everywhere. Probably comes up in Real Review and Halliday and in the Yarrow Valley wine show, and probably doesn't do as well in national shows because Margaret Rivet may come up because competing with a different style. So it depends on you how your judges are and how the wines are tasting on the day. So I like the contextual tastings of Halliday and regional wine shows. Um I'm not personally into the best wine in Australia because you there just can't be. I'm sorry. It's just impossible. Um, but if I hear, we we know that in these national shows that the wines will sell out within 30 seconds once they've been announced. Um and then like Claire just recently, Jim Barry, I don't know if you saw, picked up like six trophies or something in what is a fairly small show because it's tasting within its region. Yeah. And I I do think that's really important. I like to support the regional shows also because they're often run by the agricultural society. So there's a little bit of money that's going back into the community, you know, it brings people in and it gets people sort of jazzed up about the region. Halliday is you send the wines in. Um, and Katrina Beller interestingly said that as I said, most wines get silver. Most wines get silver, and I'm quoting her, I listened to it three times. So the bronzes they don't even talk about in the book. So you're only seeing the best of the best, which I guess is is is good. Um, but they're looking at general balance, they're looking at comparisons between regions, um and they want they review it in a timely manner. So with Halliday, it used to be you sent them all in at one point, now that you can send them in across the year. So the judges are tasting across a you know a period of time. So different.
SPEAKER_03:Can we zoom in on that? Like, what do you think about the idea that in wine shows these panel judges have like 30, 50, 60 wines per class, and they have to taste them all within this tiny amount of time. But the media are getting wines throughout the year and slowly tasting them and drinking them with a dinner and sharing them with friends. Do you think that that makes it a better representation of what that wine actually is?
SPEAKER_05:Well, there's two aspects. One is that the media are not tasting them blind. So they're yeah, I know. You can't tell me Ewan was ambiguous. There is not anything. You know, if you want says, Oh, if you really like a particular wine and you haven't scored it particularly well, you may go back and look at it. No, you know, um, oh shit, everyone's I remember there was a wine show where a wine got up and everyone was absolutely shocked at the wine, and the chair of judges said, Have we got this wrong? Like, no, because everyone voted. Yeah, and that that's you can't be wrong.
SPEAKER_03:Stylistically currently, but by the law of wine shows, you can't have got it wrong.
SPEAKER_05:No, that the the the wines are blind, and all the judges voted for it. So I think that that makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_03:What do you what okay? So, what do you think about blind versus not blind?
SPEAKER_05:I think if you are judging a wine within the context of Chardonnays and you've got 30 wines, they should be blind.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I think even if you're doing Halliday, because Halliday is talking about each individual winery, so they can't taste them blind. They're gonna write Oak Ridge, Fundra and Diamond, 864. They're gonna write about each individual wine, so they need to they need to know.
SPEAKER_03:I think that context plays a big role in enjoyment of wines. Absolutely. And if you are tasting a wine that you know has been, there's been a lot of bottles produced and they've done a lot of blendings, get it taste a certain way or whatever, versus a wine that has a really intricate story and background, and there's so much love going into it. I don't I think that changes your enjoyment of the wine.
SPEAKER_05:That's sort of when we get into young gun of wine territory, because when you're judging at young gun of wine, the story is is part of it. And I I think that's really, really valid because you're talking about small producers that no one's heard of. So that is important. But look, a lot of stories you do wonder about them. I personally think that if you want a wine that you're gonna love with your mates at dinner, read the Real Review, Halliday, um, the more journalistic open tastings. If you want to see what's what winemakers and trade have considered to be the best of the best within a certain tasting for the wines that are showing, go the national, go the shows.
SPEAKER_03:And if you want to experience something new, follow Max Allen.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and also if you want that story, you know, Max Allen.
SPEAKER_03:I love the story. I'm a sucker for that. Like I will read his columns and I fall in love with the people and the wine before I've even tasted it. I understand how much that can affect how you taste, but does that make it any less real or viable? If you love it, if you were getting that that love and the sensation of this is amazing, who gives a shit where it comes from? If it comes from the technicality or if it comes from the story, and not both equally uh good, relevant ways. Right. And I to get there.
SPEAKER_05:Do we have to drink the best of the best? No, just go out there and try stuff, you know? Try within your price point, pick the best wine, maybe a review will back it up, maybe a review or a holiday, whatever will help you cut down what you're you know trying to choose from. Um but just they that they are a support, but they're not a be-all and end all. But we know that in some cases, so Jimmy Watson's trophy, we know that once someone wins that, they're on a pedestal.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Why don't we finish by both saying what we personally how we navigate the system ourselves? So I follow Max Allen and Cara Monsen, who who writes about wine, they just write about words and stories. And I love reading the stories behind the wine, and sometimes I'll read something and be like, I had no idea. Like Max Allen wrote about people in a war-torn region the other day. They were going out and making wine in the middle of war, and and that was ending up on our shelves. And like, we should be so lucky to be able to drink that. That makes me want to drink that. That inspires me to drink something new. But on the other end, if I have a dinner party and I'm making something and I need something good to pair with that, I'm probably gonna go to Halliday or re-review and be like, okay, what are the like gold standard wines that are I'm making dark, so what are the gold standard wines within that that could be a good wine? And then when we look at shows, it's like if I'm choosing between a couple of wines in store and I'm like this one or this one, I might look up what are the national or the regional wine trusts, say it's national. If it's two different wines from different regions, I'll be like, okay, what are the national wine tros saying about this? This is technically going to be a better wine, as judged by the nation. And if I'm looking at two wines in a wine shop that are from the same region, I might look at the regional wine show and say, Yeah, this that this region has deemed this a better wine than that one. Obviously, nothing is ever gonna be a hundred percent right. No, that's but it's it's guidance in a really complicated category, and you can't just sit down and taste everything yourself. That's how I navigate it. Meg, how do you navigate it?
SPEAKER_05:It's interesting that neither of us look at Vivino.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that is interesting because I do sometimes. That's a really good point to bring up.
SPEAKER_05:Never, never, never, never, never.
SPEAKER_03:Do you know it?
SPEAKER_05:No, no. I I, of course, I read who's won what award at what show, blah, blah, blah. Like I it's it's my job, it's what I love doing. I will go out and buy an interesting wine. There was a a wine that won the Riverland's best sustainable wine, it's like$12, Riverland wine show. So I want to try that.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:But I don't go out and buy the best of the best, I buy go out and buy the things that may be a little bit more interesting and off the wall. You know, we at the yeah, rather than wine show just recently, we had to bring a wine that you had to try before you died. That was the theme of the dinner.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that is such a good theme.
SPEAKER_05:So everyone bought, of course, JJ Prum Riesing, Barollos. You were given what you had to buy. Um, great champagnes. Uh, there was an Aris that had been on lead since 2016. I got a Mount Aetna because I got into the whole death theme. White Lotus, someone died in Sicily. Sitting at the base of Aetna, you're gonna die. And I just think it's uh Rosso, I just think they're really interesting wines. Yeah, they're not they're not the best wines, they're um, they weren't the most expensive wines on the table. But I just think you really should try this wine before you die because I think it's a fantastic wine. And that's kind of where I go. I do listen to people in wine shops and they say, Oh, you have to try this, or read the little tags. Oh my god, me too. Yeah, because I think that that's really interesting because people have given an outlet and they can make their their comments.
SPEAKER_03:I I was in a wine store the other day and I asked for recommendations, and this bloke said to me, Um, this Northern Rhone white, it was$25 ish, and he was like, It's one of the best white wines I've tasted in forever. It wasn't at all what I asked for, it wasn't in the brief, but I was like, I'm gonna try that because sometimes you get that, they do go off pissed a little bit. If you were that excited about this wine and taste it, and I was like, I went to just like a family gathering with people who are not even wine people, and we tasted it, and everyone was like, What is this wine? We all need to buy it. So, like those people, they live and breathe it, they sell it every day, they really understand.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and it's also knowing that people that you're gonna drink it with, you know, if I'm going out with the mummies from the school, I've taken the Neave savvy B from Aldi because it ticks all the boxes. And I'm why would I spend any more money? I've I've given up trying to take decent wine. Yeah, that's you know, just uh look, read it. I think I find it all very enjoyable. I love it. It gives me some top tips to try out of interest, not because I want to own it and have the best of the best. That's not my driver. I just want to see all what other people thought. I mean, you know, Yarrow Valley Wine Show, I went and got all the wine so I could take I tasted them on the night, obviously, but just have a look. Oh, yeah, that looks really good. Um, James Halliday Chardonnay and Cabernet Challenge, it'll be interesting what to see comes out of those shows. Just just keep an open mind and yeah try what you want to try. It could be awful, you know.
SPEAKER_03:No, it could be, but I don't know. Often it's not. I I just want to say, firstly, thank you, Terry, for sending in this question because it's I don't think we've helped him at all. No, really, I do because no, there's something if I'm to blow smoke up our own ass. We haven't told Terry what to do, we've given him the resources to choose himself. So hopefully he has listened through all the people that we've got on this podcast and he's gone, oh, I really like what Meg said about wine shows. I think that um a panel of independent people who know what they're talking about is best for guiding me. Or maybe Terry's gone, you know what? I really like Max Allen's approach that there shouldn't be a number, it should just be about description and story. Like, I hope that we've just given him the information that he needs to make that decision and that all our listeners can do the same. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:Good point.
SPEAKER_03:Well, um, this has been really fun. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Thank you, Meg, for covering all the wine shows and being our expert as always. We will be back next week. And until next time, we're doing it, I've got some wine.
.jpg)