Wine with Meg + Mel

Can you trust a wine label or is it just marketing guff? We test it.

• Mel Gilcrist, Meg Brodtmann • Season 4 • Episode 28

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We blind-taste three Kunawarra Cabernets and then compare our notes to the wineries’ own descriptions to see what holds up. Along the way we share a science-backed look at regional character, practical decanting and cellaring advice, and a simple rule to spot trustworthy tasting notes.

Wines: 

Notes:
• what “old-school” Kunawarra Cabernet tastes like
• how tannin texture and bay leaf markers guide pairing
• why some marketing notes miss the mark
• which notes aligned with structure, age and balance
• decanting windows versus long-term cellaring
• how to read technical cues in tasting notes
• when “yummy” language is enough for drink-now wines
• pricing, vintages and value signals across three bottles
• a quick look at research on regional signatures

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SPEAKER_00:

Hi, and welcome to Wine with Meg and Malvia here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Melgia Chris, joined by Master of My Meg Brotman. Meg, today we are actually figuring out if the taste of wine matches what is on the label. Is it all marketing or is it real? That's the question.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, so we're what they write on the back label. I've got a question for you. You're a marketer. Does anyone read it? No. Because seriously, some of those are essays. Yeah. And I don't care. Some wise marketer once said to me, she's sitting to my right, so I have to be very careful what I say. It's just all about deliciousness, Meg. People just want to know if it's yummy. Yeah. And truly, I read these notes, and I'm a geeky kind of person, and I come from a winemaking background. They don't care if it's ally air, oak. A small percentage of the population does. But they can Google that information. I just I honestly think that your perspective, and I know we work in different markets, and different markets demand different things, but I just think, yeah, this is yummy, it'll go really well with this, or use it and as you used to say, occasion marketing.

SPEAKER_00:

This isn't necessarily back label. We are doing more like their marketing spiel from the website about the wine. But self-rent, yeah. Now I can say that as a marketer, I will tell everyone how I go about it. That doesn't mean this is how everyone goes about it. I might say to the winemakers, tell me what you think of this. And they might say something like, This tastes like lime. And sometimes I say, That's not interesting enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Keep going. It's like you used to say Coca-Cola lollies, you're not allowed to say that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, of course. No one wants to, especially if it's not it's gonna make everyone think it's sweet. I know what you mean. So I do, as a marketer, I try and find the correct terminology that still sounds interesting. So if they say lime, I don't put down lime, I say push fervor. And they go, oh no, they hate me. They're like, okay, cafe lime. And I was like, or finger lime. Okay, that I can work with. That's interesting. So for it, for it depends on the price range.

SPEAKER_01:

I was gonna say, because that is Dan Wanksville.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, it totally depends on the price range. And I do studies on what kind of people drink at each price range and what kind of things they want to hear. So I will take the same term and I will make it, I can make it appeal to different groups. That is your job. It is. So the question today, and we were discussing this recently in a Wessett group, is can you trust it? If you look up a wine and you read on this website, it tastes like X, Y, and Z, is that just marketing crap? Or is that what the wine is actually going to taste like?

SPEAKER_01:

Does this come into our discussion on what reviews can you trust? Yeah, probably. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so can you trust the winery's own?

SPEAKER_01:

So tell me what I've got here. I've got three red wines, I can tell that, and I'm pretty sure based on the nose that they're Cabernet.

SPEAKER_00:

They are all Cabernet, they are all from Kunawara. Oh, okay. So I wanted us to have really comparable styles, but the descriptions of each of these wines have notable differences online. Quick note before we get going. Kunawara keeps marketing itself as underrated or no one knows it. And I keep being like poor cousin. Excuse me, Kunawara, you're very famous. Everyone knows you do great cabinet. I'm not sure about this claim.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think in terms of cabernet growing regions in Australia, we would have Margaret River, Kunawara. I would always put in the Yara, but probably not.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably not. In reality, no. In reality, Kunawara and Margaret River are the two cabinet. So I just want to make it straight that we all know that Kunawara is gorgeous. It is a Cabernet region. But look, we're actually not going to get into this yet, Meg, because you have been busting my balls about a fun fact all day. What is your fun fact?

SPEAKER_01:

So we talked about sub-regionality on Pinot's a couple of weeks ago. I can't remember when it was. And I found a study. Oh, I've got to find it now. I've got to find it, I've got to find it, I've got to find it. I've printed it out. I was so excited. Okay, pin and wire research highlights regional character and chemistry in Kiwi wines. So different wine-growing conditions and practices in three of New Zealand's major Pinot regions have been reflected in a chemical and sensory analysis of 116 wines. So a lot. Uh-huh. From 2020. So Central Otagon wines displayed unique monomeric anthocyan profiles and were perceived as softer on the palate.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so you're saying this study it's not just about what we taste, they actually look like it's a little bit more than a little bit. We want some science behind the microscope. And they're like, oh my god, Meg. Yes. You should see her face right now. She's lit up.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so Central Otaga wines displayed unique monomeric anthocyanin profiles and were perceived as softer on the palate, which I guess we would say yes, riper. Marlborough wines showed higher residual sugar. Interesting. But lower colour intensity and tannin concentration, while Martinborough wines, some of my favourite, exhibited higher colour and robust mouthfeels linked to higher colour absorbances, polymeric pigments and tannins.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, but Polymeric pigments. We we should note though, some of these things, like residual sugar, that's a winemaking decision. That doesn't come from the ground. That doesn't come from tissue.

SPEAKER_01:

Polymetric pigments and tannins don't. That's from ripe ripening. Oh, so we can't, we're not adding the sugar does. So let's take the sugar out. So sugar out. So linked to higher colour absorbances, polymeric pigments and tannins. That's how what's in the skins, with the good shit in the skins.

SPEAKER_00:

What are you saying? Within one region, there's all these different There's three different three.

SPEAKER_01:

And this paper won some sort of award for so some of the 116 wines were made in a different place to the region they were grown in, such as Marlborough. So they've taken Marlborough Pinot Noir, made in central Otago. So it's not the wine making, or vice versa. Further research with more detailed sensory analysis at insights into whether those wines follow the typical trade.

SPEAKER_00:

So what is your conclusion from everything you're saying?

SPEAKER_01:

There is there is a site, there is a chemical basis in the grape to help define regional differences. And we've got the science to back it up, which we haven't.

SPEAKER_00:

My favorite thing is that you printed off a study.

SPEAKER_01:

I never print shit. I am so anti-printing things on paper. It's not there's a few other things, and I couldn't get the double-sided because I always do double-sided. But it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, I think I'm pretty good because I look at studies, but I might look at like the abstract or whatever. Meg reads the entire thing.

SPEAKER_01:

I am going to the paper, the original paper, I'm going to read it.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Cool. So our conclusion around our middle study is scientifically backed. Yes. And Meg's really happy about it. This is how I get your intersection of science and wine is my intersection of words and wine. Yes. The other day we were trying to land on a word that really epitomized like Asian food, and we didn't want spicy, and no one knows what umami means if they don't work in wine. And we were like, what is it about Asian food? We landed on tangy, and I got really excited about it. I was like, that's it. Vermonchali salad. We were specifically trying to. That's Vietnamese. That's Asian. Okay, Southeast Asian, Northeast Asian. Okay. We were specifically talking about vermin chali salad at this point. And I'm thinking of having Vietnamese tonight. Words really excite me. Anyway, good contact. Thank you. Yes. Can't wait. I'm going to go home and read the paper. That's my weekend. Sad. Let's get into it. Basically. What do you want me to do? We are going to do this in two parts. The first thing you're going to do is have a taste, have a bit of a chat, but then I want to give you to give me your final few notes on the style and a few notes on the flavours for each wine. And we will see if they line up with what the winery themselves have said. I don't necessarily think it's the same. But I don't think that's relevant, is it?

SPEAKER_01:

No. I'm not comparing and contrasting the three wines. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but they're all over the place. They're definitely not the same vintage. And it I don't think it should matter.

SPEAKER_01:

First wine is what I would call a classic iteration of old school kunawara. Inky, brambly fruit, very obvious, chunky, Lego blocky tannins. Oak is there, but it is not a signature part of the wine. Like there's a hint of oak, but it's more about that brambly, blackcurrant, blackberry, fresh blackcurrant and blackberry fruit. With that definite bay leaf herbal, not herbaceous, herbal character to it. One some people would say green capsicum. I don't see it coming across as green capsicum. There's a little bit of green bean in it. What I would call old school, almost bordering on 1990s, cabin cunawara cabinet, where we really chased that herbalness. And I would suggest, and I will put this on the back label needs time. Yep. Second wine. Very different. More on a dark cherry. Blueberry muffin. Definitely more new oak character. The tannins are definitely softer, so it's more approachable. Maybe it's older or it's more approachable at a younger age. Dark plum, lots of vanilla. A wine that I think is more uh readily consumed now. I would suggest it's possibly a little bit older than the first wine, just based on a little bit of colour difference. Or again, winemaking. I don't think it's been made in a wine that in a style that needs to be all let's lay this down. This is a really serious wine. It's a much more friendly approach. Well, it's a bloody delicious wine, to be honest. I'd love to know what it is. And it's a lovely iteration. It's almost bordering on a stepping stone between Margaret River and Kunawara. It's more of the that red fruit that you get in Marks.

SPEAKER_00:

Interesting. I'm just writing all these notes so we can re-visit them at the end and compare them to the tasting notes. The last one? Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

I suggest it's a little bit older. I'm getting more of a jammy fruit profile. I've got a little bit of that tobacco cigar box character, which is my age in it, which is where I want Kunawara to be going as it gets a little bit older. Still that bay leaf herbal note. And I want people to know that when I say herbal, woody herbs like oregano, rosemary, running your hand over your herb garden, not herbaceous green, un underripe character. Again, that blueberry, blackberry, brambly fruit, more of a cunawara style.

SPEAKER_00:

Tell me a bit more.

SPEAKER_01:

Still needs a bit of time.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you tell me a bit more about like style and occasion for that wine?

SPEAKER_01:

The last one?

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it needs a bit more time. I'd either decant it and really let it open up. I'm talking about decant it before you start preparing dinner, so give it four to five hours. It needs the steak Diane, traditional steak and mushrooms, old school. It is it's not a 1970s wine, but it is more of an older style. The second of them, uh wine number one, I would not even open. Wine number two, I'd be more than happy to drink and serve to my guests. Wine number three, I'd either decant or give it a few more years in the cellar.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Have I agreed with them at all? And you always disagree with me every time I did tasting notes with marketing as well.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I never disagreed. I just took what you said and made it sound more beautiful. That's all. And you say crazy things, but as a marketer needs to know how to say it so that people know what it means. Yeah. I made a reel about our last episode where you called the you called it a dark a velvet cushion. And I totally agreed with you, but no one at home knows what it might uh. When you run your finger over velvet.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. No, I do, I do.

SPEAKER_01:

They're all very good wines. They're completely, well, I suggest one and three are probably more stylistically the same. Possibly with three possibly having a little bit more time on it. I'm not a semelier, I'm just going on at the end of the day, I just taste wine because I want to bloody drink it and make it delicious.

SPEAKER_00:

Which one is the most just easy drinking, medium bodied and drinkable?

SPEAKER_01:

Two, definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

Which one would you pay the most for?

SPEAKER_01:

Ooh, okay, so if I'm buying if I'm buying cunawara, I want to lay it down. So let me just preface it with that. Probably three. Three's probably got the most complexity to it. I think I find one, but it is it one in its infancy is a little bit simple, but often cavernet can be like that. It's got that doughnut thing going on that doesn't have much mid-palate. Yeah. Two's at 100% drink now, bloody lovely. Three, yeah, I just love the tannins. It needs a good wagyu steak.

SPEAKER_00:

Alright.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright.

SPEAKER_00:

Some of this you can So where we've landed is you can trust some things and maybe all of it aren't lining up.

SPEAKER_01:

Well assuming that you can trust what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00:

That is the assumption.

SPEAKER_01:

You're a master of wine.

SPEAKER_00:

If we can't trust a master of wine, then I actually don't know who else is supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01:

But also if you listen to this podcast, you'll know what your style. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Number one is old school.

SPEAKER_01:

Redmonds.

SPEAKER_00:

Rebbins. This is a 2022, it is worth$45. So you said that it's jammy. That was your big thing. You said it needed more time that you needed to decant it. It says about itself that it is bigger and bolder than their other range. It has richness, complexity, salaring, salaring potential. This is interesting. You spoke a lot about needs more time, and it says here twice in a very small paragraph to age it.

SPEAKER_01:

This is one of the first wines that I ever bought to seller. Really? I'm off to Port Ferry for the cup weekend. And I went there. I was going out with a boy, and we uh went to Kunawara and we went to Redmonds and we bought between us a dozen bottles of wine that we split up before we split up, thank God. Oh god, it would have been shit, probably 1990. Yeah. No. Yeah, it uh 89.90. Oh, John Ray's was uh I'm just trying to work out where my boyfriend's all landed. Probably about 89.90. I just thought these were amazing wines, and I drank the last bottle of this on my 30th birthday.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh how'd it go?

SPEAKER_01:

It was great, but we were very pissed and we only didn't have a bigger one.

SPEAKER_00:

So there we go, the salary, they were right about the salary.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

All right, number two. You said you gave it the blueberry muffin, the dark cherry, you said it was softer, approachable, readily consumed now. You said the words bloody delicious wine, to be honest. Now, everything in this tasting note speaks about balance and harmony, is the key thing that they want people to know. And that to me is what you said.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure, but I don't know that people understand what that means. Do you know what I mean? I think bloody delicious I think bloody delicious says it better than balance and harmony.

SPEAKER_00:

But let's say that on a tasting note. I'm with them on this one. Okay. They said a magnificent example of kunawara, cabernet, distinctive intensity of both varietal and regional characters, melded with a balance and harmony that ballies its ability to be enjoyed for many years to come. Intense blackberries throughout the palette, dark chocolate and plum, fine tannins, lingering acid hold together in perfect balance for an extended lingering finish. Wouldn't necessarily age this wine. This is the most expensive wine at$150. How old is it though? 2016. Oh. This is Brandon Sons.

SPEAKER_01:

That is holding itself together beautifully well. And this is why you should buy this 2022 Redmonds, because it's gonna obviously age 10 years later to this. And this is what's so amazing about Kunal. God, that bottle's heavy though. Fucking Jesus, I'm sorry. The planet won't be alive if you keep bottling in these bottles. This is why why you should buy these wines because they're still really cheap. And they that morphs into that looks like a young Margaret River. Cavernet. How good is it? It is so nice. It's just I would not have said it was nearly 10 years old. It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a brilliant wine. And I think it it does exactly what it's like. Liv rebranded. It does exactly what it says on the label. And what you how much is that? 120. 150.

SPEAKER_01:

150.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you get intense blackberries, dark chocolate, plum, fine tannins? Do you get balance, harmony, regional, and varietally expressive? It's the least.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so 2016, really hot year across Australia, the southeastern coast of Australia. So it is showing that really ripe tannin profile that I don't expect. I expect more Lego blocky tannins, but it also is nine years old. Yeah. Yeah. Go out and buy a current release of this if you've got time. I drank the last bottle of this on my 30th birthday.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I wonder how much it is. Young. Probably only 35 bucks. Yeah. Okay. The last one you said is classic old school inky bramble. Lego tannins, oaky, blackberry, black currant. They said medium-bodied and oh so drinkable. This one is different. This one has been grabbing the attention of anyone who's poured a glass, immediately wowing drinkers with its fragrance, balance, and beautiful intense fruit. This is a marketing note, not a winemaker note. They are so different, the notes. This one is about and drinkability. To be honest, a regular consumer reading these notes would probably relate to that last one. It sounds also drinkable. I love wines that are also drinkable. Whereas the wine nerds are probably gonna like these more And if you're in Kunawarak, can I argue you're a bit of a nerd? No, you can't. It's classic Cabernet. I don't think. Yeah, I don't know. My dad loves Kunawara Cabernet and he's not a nerd. He would probably pick up a wine that was also drinkable. Zima, look at the new label. I bought some of that as well.

SPEAKER_01:

$33 Zima. And it's 2018, so it's older. Another warm year. Not as warm as 2016, though. I think. Zima? You're holding the bottle, so I'm assuming that's the wine.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yeah, that was number three, right?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Okay, sorry, we are right. Yeah, so this is Zima, number three. Just look at the colour. But your everything you said was old school brambly. It was everything you said was big and bold, whereas their own description was just yummy. Balance, fragrance, beautiful, medium-bodied, also drinkable. Do you think that that lines up?

SPEAKER_01:

They've put that label on in 2018 or 2019. Did you read it this is why I said to Mel, do you have a date when the tasting notes were written? Because you're writing these tasting notes to sit on the back. But I look, I don't give a shit about the tasting notes to be honest.

SPEAKER_00:

I just think But how else do you choose a wine? If you're sure if you're an average Joe in a wine store and looking at all these different wines, if you have a philosophy that you don't want to buy wine from the pretty artwork and you actually want to look up the notes, figure out how they taste, and then buy on that basis.

SPEAKER_01:

Then can I say to all the marketers out there on your website, and this is not hard to do, update your tasting notes every year so you have January 2025, January 2024, January 2023, so that people can see if they've still got 2018 on the market how the wine is tasting at the presentation. It's not hard to do, Juno. How busy I am. You can pay someone like$30 an hour to do that sort of shit.

SPEAKER_00:

Well else to do tasting notes.

SPEAKER_01:

That second wine, 2016, blew me away. I thought it was a younger wine from a different region, to be honest. And that just goes to show how beautifully they age, admittedly, from a very hot year. 2018, style it's stylistically old school. Obviously, it needs more time. And then the red men don't even buy it and just do what I do.

SPEAKER_00:

How are you feeling about Kunawara cab after this? I fucking love Kunawara Cab in a so in the 90s.

SPEAKER_01:

I came up in my winemaking where we were chasing all that methoxyparazine. Yeah. That's what we wanted. We wanted a little shadow. So you mean the green capsicum bell pepper character, like the Riddics back then. I remember tasting a Riddick from 1990. You were chasing else. And we were just going, oh my god, it's all from shading. We know where it's from. But these are that's probably that's the Redmond is the oldest school, but I know they're not this is the thing I love about Redmond. It's fuck you, we're just gonna make great wine in the style that we always make it. And on my 30th, it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00:

Here's what I'm hearing. If you read, here's what I've taken from it as a marketer. If you read This is more about Mel than me, really. No, you are no, because you gave me the data, now I'm analyzing the data. What I can see is that if you read a tasting note that says something like darkening colour and talks about a few different flavors specifically, if it talks about the texture and how it links in. Like if it looks like a technical note that had input from a winemaker, I think you can probably trust it. If you read something that is yummy, maybe it's been not Mel. Just so you know, most marketers, I'm really weird because most marketers at wineries don't have a wine background. There's like really not many of them. It could be toothpaste. You should look at the tasting notes from before I landed at some of the places I've landed. Like they talk about picnics and sunshine, which is totally consumer lifestyle, it has a place, but when you are paying more than$50 for a bottle, you don't want to hear about picnics and sunshine, you want to know what's in there. This is why the winemakers like me, by the way, because not many marketing people actually understand the words they're saying and can translate it.

SPEAKER_01:

Particularly with the price point you're selling at. It's not like you're selling squealing pig peanut gris from the Riverland.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Oh no, the cheapest thing I sell is$30, which is not cheap by any means. It's$35, isn't it? Garden Spritz. No, no, like the non-vintage Chandon Brute is$30. Anyway, yeah, I think that's what to take home. If it sounds like it's a bit technical and written by a winemaker, it probably was, and you can trust it. If it sounds a little bit too lifesty and is just like yummy, it might not necessarily be indicative of the stuff. So what's your take home message? Can you trust the tasting notes on the website of it? Depends. Just figure out does it sound technical, then yes. And if it sounds a bit too yummy, yummy, then maybe no.

SPEAKER_01:

I would argue, what are you gonna use the wine for? If you're gonna lay it down, go to the technical winemakers.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

If you want to just something to enjoy because it's yummy and delicious right now, go the marketers.

SPEAKER_00:

But we are talking specifically to our audience as wine people. And I want to make it clear that for the marketers out there, the yummy thing works. Because normal people who aren't nerds who listen to wine podcasts, sorry listeners, love you. You're wine nerds, but that's why we love you. The wine nerds want the technical, and the consumers who make up most of the population want to read yummy yummy.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, they just want something yum and in that boat as well now. I'm getting to a point. I have my wines that I know that I uh should be labeling.

SPEAKER_00:

But don't you want the truth? Don't you want to read something that will communicate what you're going to get and not read the shit on the back of the labels.

SPEAKER_01:

I just take it home and buy it and I buy it and take it home. Don't take it home first.

SPEAKER_00:

I buy it. Okay. Take it home, drink it and decide. Maybe if someone out there has$30 to spend tonight and they want to spend it. Go. They will leave it for you. You know what I mean? Yeah.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Just listen to us.

SPEAKER_01:

We'll lead you down the right garden path.

SPEAKER_00:

True. They don't need back labels. No, that's fair. They listen to us. We've already told you what to drink. We will be back with you next week. Oh, but please, and I'm so glad I'm remembering. Yeah, leave a review and follow us.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey, if we're like any other podcast in America, we need to be promoting supplements. Take this if you want to go out drinking. Yeah. It's really embarrassing. Even people that I really love, I just think, really?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh no, we've been contacted. Oh. I told them no. They weren't offering us money, they were just offering us samples. I was like, Oh, I'm not taking samples. I'm not taking any of that hippie shit. Give me some cash and I might do it. Absolutely not. So one day they're gonna offer us cash.

SPEAKER_01:

One day if you hear Meg on here, being like, ah love. Oh, there's one thing on PodTe America, and it's like when you go out drinking, I can't remember what it's called, and I just think, oh, I love these boys, but no, that's just bullshit. Anyway, it's on me.

SPEAKER_00:

So next week we are actually going to unveil our new partnership. That for the rest of the year we are partnering with someone, and it will be really fun for you to think about who because it's kind of interesting and exciting. Honestly, the next few episodes are going to blow your mind.

SPEAKER_01:

They have blown my mind completely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's crazy. Look, we've got some good episodes coming up, so make sure you tune in until next time. Enjoy your next classic one. Do well.

Head Shot

Meg Brodtmann MW

Co-host
Head Shot

Mel Gilcrist

Co-host