Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Pinot Gris v Pinot Grigio: The Blind Taste Test
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We taste Pinot Gris versus Pinot Grigio blind and find the difference is real when we focus on structure instead of label hype. We also share the tricks we use to call style, origin and quality, including why bitterness and balance matter more than fancy tasting words.
Get your notebook out and play along at home!
Wine 1: Pizzini King Valley Pinot Grigio 2025 - https://www.pizzini.com.au/products/pizzini-pinot-grigio-2025?srsltid=AfmBOorLRzoyyHl-VgV1ETi8MjSfuZDxzcTsvKQavTw3xW-sQvF-0qrl
Wine 2: Roaring Meg Mt Difficulty Pinot Gris - https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_705149?srsltid=AfmBOor7jOD3GiHLJPMuJRQ_aS0PshOby0oFT8mDNKZ2BUZaxX17Eo_l
Wine 3: Dopff Au Moulin Pinot Gris - https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_328945/dopff-au-moulin-pinot-gris?srsltid=AfmBOooLTm0fl232vVUcHpcuf5jR6YodT09qG7HGi081Z9onjImHGPcF
Wine 4: Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio - https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_907682/santa-margherita-pinot-grigio?srsltid=AfmBOor6s6UvGVVbXIllTqm8CTraexRDz_O8tYFdASJrnA3CYGsY_kYg
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Welcome And The Big Question
SPEAKER_02Hi, and welcome to Wine with Meg and Malway here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Megal Cristra, my master of wine, Meg Rutman and producer Austin from McCleary Productions. Meg, what are we doing? We're doing Pinot Gris versus Pinot Griggio. Can you tell a difference? I love this idea.
SPEAKER_00Well, was it your idea?
SPEAKER_02No, it was Austin's. Yeah. I can't see. So well, the reason I like this idea is people always say to me, is there a difference? And I'm always like, yes, it's the body and this and that. And I will ask you to go into what the difference is. But the thing is, is now I'm like, you know what? Are people just choosing whatever term sounds better these days?
SPEAKER_00100%. So the thing that I noticed when I bought the wines, Pinot Gris traditionally is from Alsace and is in the tall flute. Which is in France. In France. It's so in the northeast corner near the Vosges Mountains. And it famously, even though it's a very continental cool climate, has long, dry autumn, so long hang time for the vines. And Pinot Gris is considered to be one of the noble varieties of Alsace.
SPEAKER_02And so what does that what kind of style does it make?
SPEAKER_00So it gives more, it's a longer hang time, so generally higher alcohol. It's a premium wine-growing region. So they're all about, you know, ideally quality. Traditionally fented in some older, large format oak or, you know, neutral, basically neutral vessels. Dry. Yes. And Pinot Gris being Pinot Noir's mutant cousin.
SPEAKER_02Dry.
SPEAKER_00It's not always dry, is it? You're thinking of Gavertz, I think, which tends to be sweeter. I thought that I thought there's more drying in Alsace. There's very Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I feel like there's a higher dose, like the Dossage. Someone works on the channel. That's right. I feel like there's a bit more residual sugar in Alsace? In Alsace over like a Pinot Gris. I mean a Pinegrisio from Italy. Right.
SPEAKER_00I think they are actually mostly made dry. But there's more glycerol in the body.
SPEAKER_02Interesting anyway. Yes. It's like yeah, body and weight and texture tend to be key things that really stand out. And because they have longer time, it will affect the kind of flavour as well.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So you're definitely on that what I call orchard wine. So
What Pinot Gris Means In Alsace
SPEAKER_00ripe pear and apple, sometimes orange blossom I get, very floral wines, but very textured. Because don't forget Pinot Gris is actually a pink grape variety. So when it's made, you know, it if it's had some skin contact, it can have that pink tinge to it. Pinot Grigio, on the other hand, for me, traditionally, usually from the northeast of Italy, but can be grown in Alta Adige, Trentino, various parts of Italy, but that cooler north sort of band at the top towards the mountains. But it's been a bit of a workhorse, and so I think higher yield, so more dilute, so quite lighter in body, more refreshing styles, and often more on that unripe pear, lemon juice, citrus, sometimes quite neutral. You know, what do we call in WCT? Simple. Sometimes you're just struggling to find anything, but a lovely, refreshing drink with high acidity. When we are putting gree versus griggio on the label in the new world, outside of appellated regions, we are doing it. Yeah, so new worlds like Australia. Australia, America, New Zealand, yeah. We are doing it for a stylistic basis. So gree tends to be those richer, fatter, higher alcohol generally wines, 13, 13.5%. Sometimes there's some residual sugar in there. I find the Kiwis are really big on leaving that residual sugar in there.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, they are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I remember when you came back from your honeymoon, it was like, there should be a warning on the sock on the wine.
SPEAKER_02There is. Oh my god, I love Riesling and every bloody Riesling with sweets. I was like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Because of the acidity, because they have high acid. And what we tend to do with Pinot Grigio in Australia is we tend to make these lighter styles. So having Austin pour these wines for us blind, the aim is to see if we can pick between Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio styles. It was interesting when I bought them. So Pinot Grigio tends to be bottled in a from Italy in a Bordeaux bottle. So the one with a higher shoulder. Pinot Gris from AlS is in the flute, so the like the Riesling bottle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like the long skinny type looking bottle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and when I bought the one of the Pinot Grigio's from Australia for today, it's in a flute bottle. Confusing. And the Pinot Gris from New Zealand is in a burgundy bottle. Oh my god. So I'm just like, we're not even getting any cues from the bottle, even though Austin's looking confused and thinking, oh no, he thinks he's poured the wrong wines. No, no, no. So it it's the same grape. It's exactly the same grape. It is the same grape. And do you know what it is? So it's exactly the same as Sarah Tcheras. It started as Pinot Noir.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And Pinot Noir has a very unstable genome. So it lost a colour gene and became Pinot Gris. So it's pink. And then that lost a colour gene and became Pinot Blanc.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean it lost a colour gene? Just dropped out. Just one one vineyard one place one time.
SPEAKER_00And then they got clippings of that and well I worked in a vineyard in the Arrow Valley where we had Pinot Noir, and there was one bush that went to that became grey, just lost a gene. Yeah. It's so because don't forget when they're reproducing, it's how cancers occur. There's mutations within the genes.
What Pinot Grigio Means In Italy
SPEAKER_00We're not getting into genetics, it's too much. Let's taste the wine.
SPEAKER_02But yes, Austin, great point, Shiraz, Syrah. It's like it's winemakers. Either it's a marketer that's choosing which one is better, or a winemaker is just like has a personal like. I remember Rob Dolan had a personal vendetta against the word Syrah because we're in Australia, so we should use Shiraz. At the end of the day, it's like you get to choose. There's no like legal definition. So our the question is: are we choosing? Are the word being choose to describe the varietal in line with what we would expect?
SPEAKER_00The style to be. The style to be that's right. And you're I reckon in the 2010s we introduced the PG scale, the Pinot Grease scale, to try and give an indicator of where it's sat so people could voluntarily put this scale on the back on their back label. I don't think it lasted very long. So I I think we need to taste all four wines first, and then decide.
SPEAKER_02Are these all Australian wines?
SPEAKER_00No, I've got OG Alsace. Okay, I've got OG Veneto, and then I've got a kiwi and an Aussie.
SPEAKER_02So two, there's two Greese and two Grease and two uh Grisio, yeah. So do you want to go through and taste them all and then talk about it at the end? Because that just doesn't make for good content, not gonna lie. We're gonna be although I've already picked it.
SPEAKER_00Right. Oh, and the other thing as well, you're tasting, they're all around the same price point. So I could have gone a bit more expensive with things, but I got went that 2025.
SPEAKER_02Wait, so is Australian Gris and Australian Grigio and then a Gree and a Grigio from their respective homelands?
SPEAKER_00There is an Alsace Pinot Gris, there is a Veneto Gri Grigio, there is a Kiwi Gris, and there's a King Valley Grigio.
SPEAKER_02Okay, thank you. That was helpful. Okay. Can you tell me to help me decide which one I'm gonna pick as because I'm gonna try and pick these. I'm not even gonna go pin a gris, pin a great show. I'm gonna try and pick which which can I do it? Because I feel like you can do it. But I want to try it. But can you just tell me in theory, should vanetto be higher acid than King Valley?
SPEAKER_00Probably about the same. Alcohol's gonna be about the same.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Based on the price point, Veneto potentially could be more simple and almost unidentifiable as a great variety because I mean, we are talking $21, you got all these import taxes and everything on top of it, and the the out the King Valley ones about the same, it's the same price. So it it could come down to a quality question.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So let's talk through it. First thing is that it is pretty clear to me, and if this is correct, then wines are being labelled the right way because it went grigier, great gri grigier.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I agree. Do we get confirmation now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I want confirmation that far.
SPEAKER_00You have absolutely nailed it. Yeah. But we let's work that see if we can work out where they're from now. Yeah, that part was the easy part. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And why just but why? Oh, yeah, true. Forgot. I'm I'm like, I'm just like getting super into it now. I'm just like, I'm just a little brain.
SPEAKER_00I'm here taste.
SPEAKER_02When her voice slows down, when her speed slows down, like I'm like, mmm. It's like this is literally, this is why I haven't continued formal wine education. I'm like, I get
New World Labels And One Grape
SPEAKER_02to taste once a month once a master of wine. I'm like, this is my formal wine education. So sorry, I'm like getting into it. So okay, so wine number one the had this beautiful acidity, which just sung to me straight away. I found on the nose it was very citrus, heavy, it's lemon juice, lime zest, a bit of minerality. On the nose, those things to me straight away said Grigio, tasted it, and then the beautiful acidity is what made me go Grigio. Meg, do you have anything else to add to number one?
SPEAKER_00No, 100% agree. I thought I didn't see as much in it as you did. Admittedly, it is in a really bad glass, but I'm not blaming the glass. I was gonna ask for some more, but I can't. I I I thought it was there's a chalkiness about it, which I often get in Pinot Grigio as well. So it could When you say chalkiness, do you mean the texture? Yeah, that and I think that comes down to acidity, you know. It's like I know you guys probably didn't have dusters at school because you're all so young, you probably had, you know, I just did gridgie. Do you see what I mean? It's got there's a chalky texture. Oh no, sorry, I meant I just tasted two. But yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah, and I just thought it was a little bit just fresh and lovely and yeah, floral. But it I didn't see that apple and pear and that I see in gree. That's what put me on the side. And uh we're it's impossible for us to judge colour here, so you would also expect often grey to be a slightly darker in colour.
SPEAKER_02Why number two? Actually, if we didn't taste them all at once, I would have been on the fence because it was only after tasting all of them that I went back and said, I know there's two of each, therefore that is clearly Grigio. It it is it it's got a bit of a neutralness to it. Like on the on the nose, we are not so not smelling the same, really. I mean, my god, it's like apricok. I get do you know what I get um perfume? What you're describing as perfume, I get soap. And whenever I smell soap, I have to convert it to floral or perfume or something because it feels weird. You can't just say soap. I thought soap and uh green apple and wood sage perfume from Joe Malone.
SPEAKER_00It's I think it's the best gender neutral scent, and it's it smells like that.
SPEAKER_02Actually, on the palate, there's a lot more going on. What is it though?
SPEAKER_00There's residual sugar. There is apricot, a bit of almond, like raw almond, almond essencey character, pretty high acidity. And when you take it in, you can feel that oiliness. That's the thing about Pinot Grit. It's almost like someone's put a little drop of olive oil in the wine, and you feel that as it goes into your mouth. I mean, I'm just thinking food and pork and well, yeah, pork.
SPEAKER_02Did you have? Oh my god! Oh my god, we can cut that out. Why? The the noise. I try so hard not to think about the animal that and then you just snort like a pig. Okay. Yeah, that round, beautiful, but but because that has residual, this is the kind of thing that trips up Wessett students, is when there is residual sugar and high acidity, they cancel each other out really nicely, making a balanced wine, and people don't see either the either, exactly, which is what makes a great wine.
SPEAKER_00That's why the dribble test is really, really important because it's a physiological reaction.
SPEAKER_02And I always, when I'm teaching Wessett, do it like I actually uh Yeah, do it systematically if we can teach WST students.
SPEAKER_00When you take the wine into your mouth, you'll see the sugar immediately on the front of your tongue, even though the tongue map isn't true. But then, first thing, ignore everything else. I'm gonna do my dribble test. And then the next thing we quickly cover it again.
SPEAKER_02Sorry.
SPEAKER_00So basically, when you swallow the wine or spit the wine out, you put your head forward with your lips closed, and you'll see the amount of saliva that accumulates in the front of the mouth. The more acidic the wine, the more saliva that'll accumulate. And we calibrate that when we do the WSET course. It is key to keep your mouth closed. It's it and the beauty is if you it
Blind Tasting Starts With Structure
SPEAKER_00takes away your perception because if you like lemons, gone because it's a physiological reaction.
SPEAKER_02So I still do it, particularly with those sweet wines, get so cocky, and they always try and call out the acid without doing it. And I'm like, you guys are in level two, like even I not even I, I'm no one, but like you you gotta keep it up because you are never going to be able to objectively call it unless you're training yourself to feel that physiological response.
SPEAKER_00And I this has got again going back to level two teaching, as grapes ripen, they move from that sit white grapes that move from that citrus spectrum into that more orchidy spectrum, and this is what that has, and that's what Greeno is Greeno, Gri is it is about higher ripeness, longer hang time levels. I don't know why they've put any sugar in that. I mean, it's it's not a lot, it's sub threshold. But to be clear, when you say put, you mean it's left in. Left in, yes. So well, unless it's a New World wine, and which they could add it back in Alsace, you can't. Yeah. Allegedly.
SPEAKER_01Allegedly.
SPEAKER_02No, let's just go theory of wine making. Let's keep it really simple, is that sugar generally comes from grape. And therefore, we they've they've just cut fermentation at the point that they think it's good and have left it in rather than put it in. Okay, wine number three. I get uh lime cordial, which lime is telling me Grigio, but cordial is telling me grit.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just getting whetstone, mineral, apricot kernel, bruised apple. You know, when did you did you have school bags? Yeah, and you left an apple in your bag? The smell of your school bag? School bags still exist. Well, yeah, but they were like vinyl. They weren't backpacks. You slung them over your shoulder, and that's why anyone my age won't I mean one of those little satchels wrapped in wrapped in rope, wrapped in the leather belt. Actually, Peter had one of those, my husband. Yes, and his mother found it because she keeps everything. And would you like to take that home, Patie? I said, no, we don't need any shit in our house. Anyway, back to the wine. Bruised Apple.
SPEAKER_02Bruised Apple, which is a good shout. And for anyone listening at home who think that it might be a bad thing. Sometimes we use descriptors that aren't necessarily good things in the real world, and people think we're gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00Brucedaple, you could say as well.
SPEAKER_02That sort of I actually think bruised apples feel feels accurate to me. Feels a little bit oxidative. It's not a bad thing, it's a lovely thing. I really like it. Do you not?
SPEAKER_00I don't eat a lot of fruit and if because it has to be pristine. Like there cannot be any. I'm just I think it's my excuse not to eat fruit.
SPEAKER_02Okay, there we go. Do you know what I mean? You brought it back. You brought it back down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just like I had opened up a mandarin the other day, and one of the sections was a bit soft and goopy. I threw the whole thing out. I was just and I I was looking forward to eating it, but anyway, I don't like fruit.
SPEAKER_02It is tasting like the alcohol feels out of balance for me. I am tasting the alcohol and I am getting an unpleasant bitterness.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's bitter.
SPEAKER_02So there's this phenolic. The word phenolic. When you hear the word phenolic, just like.
SPEAKER_00I'm really going through them now. Poor Elston's having to earn his case over there, re-pouring.
SPEAKER_02When you hear the word phenolic, just think of like tannin, but white wine is basically bitterness.
SPEAKER_00It happens at the back of your mouth. It's when you swallowed the wine. It's like when you drink tonic water or you when you swallow a pill, you know, and it sometimes doesn't go down the right way, it starts to dissolve in your mouth. That's kind of thank you. That's kind of what bitterness is. And to be fair, it's a genetic thing. So some people can't taste bitterness, they just uh genetically predispose that they can't taste like the opposite of me. Yeah, well, because you're a super taster. I am so just these two wines, where would you put them based on your tasting notes? Because if you wrote those tasting notes down, I would pick and I would decide on those tasting notes because you've done really good tasting notes for them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so based on the tasting notes, I would make them both pin agree. The first one based mostly the first thing that would shout to me was the texture, but then also the flavors are further down that spectrum. So, as you say, the further riper they get, the more of down the path of like that orchid or floral or different kind of stuff. That that apricot that we were picking out definitely wouldn't come up in a shorter growing season, which is what peanut grishoe is. So that that number two.
SPEAKER_00Where did where's it from?
SPEAKER_02New Zealand or number two, I would call higher quality. Let's start there. Number three, I I need I haven't decided yet. I need to deduct it.
SPEAKER_00Like I need to do a I love watching the way my Mel's brain works. Let's watch this because it's good. Yeah, yeah. This is what WCT people should be doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, people get tempted to call it too quickly, but I think you need to think it through. It's systematic. Yeah, systematic. It's a systematic approach to tasting. It's systematic. It's called NCT for a reason. Oh no, Meg, you didn't. I should do stand-up comedy like that. What's his name, Phil? Okay. Number two. Number two, I clearly think it's a peanut grit. One of the biggest giveaways was that alcohol, higher alcohols, which felt unpleasant. It also, probably due to the alcohol, has also more texture. It's bitter, but yeah, like bitterness in theory could show up from winemaking reasons or one thing or another, in either. So bitterness. Quality.
SPEAKER_00So can I just say if you've got bitterness in a white wine, it's often because the quality they're trying to squeeze as much out of it, so they're really pushing the skin. So they're picking up a lot of phenolics, and then they can't find them or they won't find them out because that's a cost issue. So you're you're trying to get as much return on each grape that you possibly can. So rather than 650 litres per ton, you're getting 680, 700. And for me, bitterness in white wine is always a measure of quality big based on the wine production. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So more bitter, less quality.
SPEAKER_00More bitter, more squeezed. Higher volume, generally less.
SPEAKER_02And unless sometimes skin contact is a decision, but if it's if it's been done on purpose, it should feel in balance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Whereas this does not. It does not feel like it, it just feels some wines you put in your mouth and it feels like a hole, and some wines feel like they break apart like a jigsaw puzzle, and you're tasting individual things at different places, and it just doesn't make sense. And those ones, it's a really easy way to tell a lower quality wine when everything doesn't integrate as one.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And that is what I get from that wine. And is that why I've called it a lower quality wine. The other reason I think it's a Pinot Gris and not a Pinot Grigio is because instead of calling Calling apple or fresh apple or whatever you calls bruised.
SPEAKER_00Which tends to suggest oxidation.
SPEAKER_02Oxidation or for all like cooked. So for me, it can also just mean rider though.
SPEAKER_00Well yes and no. Usually, even though you may not associate it with oxidate oxidative or oxidation-oxidative handling, bruised apple, the reason it smells like that is because of the oxidation of the apple. Alright? So that chemical is is also in grapes. Grapes. Oh, at least we didn't break it. So you, even though you're not perceiving it as oxidation, it it is. It's slightly oxidative handling, which also ties in with the bitterness because when you oxidate phenolics, they become more bitter.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00That's just real winemaking. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02That was really helpful because it's helped me toward a conclusion. But the other thing I'll just shout is that the first thing I smelt was lime cordial, and that the every time I get a cordial type thing, it does tend toward there's going to be some sort of like residual sugar type thing, and there's totally residual sugar. I get a I get sweeter stone fruit, almost like a lychee type thing going on in there, which is absolutely not peanut gris territory. So I sorry, Pinot Grigio territory. Let's lift up the tech with some good vents. Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00So which they could have done.
SPEAKER_02I let's put that hint aside because I shouldn't have got it. I'm very comfortable calling them both peanut gris, but then deciding where from. So, from a simply wine perspective, the acid on number two was really high quality, lovely acid. And I think the New Zealand climate is just this suggests to me a really, really cool climate, cooler than probably Alsace. Am I wrong in saying Alsace is more a longer growing season rather than like
Quality Clues From Bitterness
SPEAKER_02very cool? Would New Zealand be cooler?
SPEAKER_00Mild autumns in in Alsace, yes. Long growing season. New Zealand, don't forget they can add acid, and depending on where it's grown in New Zealand, and I can't for the life of me. Is it the Roaring Meh? Okay. So Central Otago. So yes, it is much cooler.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. So I'm getting cooler acid. I bought it because of the name.
unknownAh.
SPEAKER_02The the second one, the biggest.
SPEAKER_00And that's sugar. The Kiwis is what I tell MW students. The Kiwis love that sugar, and it is much more perceptible in that wine than in this wine. I think there's sugar in here, but it's not as much as there is in that kiwi wine.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes, but it's better disguised in the kiwi wine. It's in balance in the kiwi wine, but it is not in the third wine. I love the jiggle call.
SPEAKER_00I love that jigsaw analogy because it's what I call elbow-y. Yes. Nothing's balanced or integrated in this wine. It's like the bitterness stands out, the alcohol's over here, the sugars over there, it is like a jigsaw puzzle, and you cannot get those pieces to come together. And I think that calls on the quality. But this has also got that minerality that I don't see in the New Zealand. And when often we talk, and it's a very broad brush, but when we talk about European wines, savouriness in whites and minerality in whites rather than that fruit forwardness is often your first kind of call.
SPEAKER_02So are we correct? Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. The last thing was the the oxidation that you gave the hint that oxidation and that made me go. European winemaking is far more likely to allow oxidation in winemaking than Kiwi, which is very precise, very technical, very pure fruit. Yep. That was my last one. Okay. Okay. So are we incorrect? We've got all four at once. No, let's do the Greens because they're next to each other.
SPEAKER_00So we think the first one is that Kiwi, so Central O'Targan, if I'm not incorrect, and then the Alsace. Are you guys pros or something? You've nailed it. Right. The thing is, it is a Dopf. Oh yeah. So it's cheap. So I was going to buy the Hugel, which is $46, and then I thought, well, that's a bit unfair. But in Heinz, if you so DOPF, for those that you don't know, it's it's it's a big co-op in Alsace and it produces good entry-level quality wines. But that's that that bitterness and that oxidative is just we that's churn, you know, but it's still expensive at $23 because they're paying all the taxes. The Kiwi one, delicious. Just we don't need the sugar New Zealand. We just know we're grown-ups. Send this to them, send them to the New Zealand Wine Growers Association. We're grown-ups, we don't need them. No, I agree. And this is the thing. Stop it. I've I've had this one. I've been to the winery, I've had this wine, and I've just said, why?
SPEAKER_02New Zealand, your wine is so good. You don't need it.
SPEAKER_00You don't, you don't anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just stop. Step up, stop.
SPEAKER_00Grow up with the board pants on and go, no, no, no. Just like a few of you do it.
SPEAKER_02Not all of you.
SPEAKER_00All right, yeah. So let's go back to the Griggio since we're supposed to be doing short episodes. Oh no. Oops. Okay. Impossible with Mel when she's got that. It's almost like she's got the colander on her head and like the electrodes. I'm having fun. What was his name? Yahoo. Serious? Oh. I I know you guys weren't alive then. It's okay. Let's go back.
SPEAKER_02So we've got two Pinot Grigios. This, I'm sorry, but this burgundy glass is not conducive to smelling Pinot Grigio. Can I say first? Yeah, thanks, Austin.
SPEAKER_00This is hard because they are really bloody similar.
SPEAKER_02Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_00Have you tasted them? But there's one reason why I'm pulling down on one side.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna just go through this wine and then we'll compare.
SPEAKER_00So wine four.
SPEAKER_02Wine for is like a lime zest that I'm getting because I can I'm getting this. You're not getting zest? I'm totally getting this bitter zest of yeah, yeah, but I stand by it.
SPEAKER_00But it's more of those unripe limes that I've got on my tree at the moment that just refuses to.
SPEAKER_02Okay, sorry. I will do my tasting note again. I'm getting like a lime zest that are on Meg's tree that aren't quite lime enough because she refuses to, yeah. That's what I'm getting. Yeah. There's something almost petrolly or something, isn't there? Like there's like there's something all like oh no, it's pear. It's a bruised pear. It's it's a pear. It's a green pear, but I don't like it.
SPEAKER_00Like those pack and pears when you first buy them from the supermarket, and they're like rock hard, thank you. There's definitely pear in there though, but you're right, it is definitely you know, it is when you bite into that that I'm thinking that pack and pear, the really knobbly green one, and then you just go, oh, but it's like the smell of that.
SPEAKER_02It's truly inoffensive on the palate. There's not much going on. It's almost soave, like a bad soave. Not not I'm not saying it's bad, it's just like similar region. Yeah, it's it's relatively neutral. It's got a bit of it's it's citrus juice more than zest on the palate. Something soft and nice, maybe a floral or something, maybe a white blossom kicking around. That's all I got. But I would call that gris on the basis of, I guess. Grigio. Sorry, Grigio on the basis of simplicity, probably.
SPEAKER_00Okay, the bitterness. This is why I've landed where I've landed, simply because of the bitterness.
SPEAKER_02Interesting that I originally got the bitterness on the nose. It doesn't offend me as much on the palate. But on the nose, I got that's how I said zest instead of I was picturing, not even the zest, not even the nice part of a lime. But like, yeah, you're right. We might need a second for Meg to regain.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02It's like I was imagining the the skin of a lime, the outside, not like the not like a yummy zest, like a bitter outside of a citrus. That's where the bitterness is calling to me. Yeah. I find the palate.
SPEAKER_00So where do you think it's from?
SPEAKER_02I reckon that could be Italy, just because it's so it just seems like something that they've they just churn out. Like it's that that is just like classic, easy to drink Pinna Grigio. That if we weren't analysing it, we probably wouldn't have picked up anything wrong with it.
SPEAKER_00It would be it's what we describe as vena, so it smells like wine. And in WSCT, posh word, huh? In WSCT, uh what I say is if you're struggling, it means they've often churned out high volumes of wine because they they pump the grapes up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you're not getting any flavor in them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I must admit the first wine for me doesn't have a lot there either, but there is a freshness to it and a
Calling Origins And How To Learn
SPEAKER_00ripeness in the style that it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the first one's really likable. I think it's the the acid and drive for me in the first one that is just lovely. It's a pretty simple wine though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but uh simple doesn't have to be a bad thing. Well, the thing is with Grigio, the I think I've said this before. I had Grigio served super cold at I'm gonna sound like a wanker at a house in a farmhouse at Agriturismo where you stay on someone's farm. Okay, you don't sound like Wanker yet, but go on. And they served it had chunks of parmesan cheese and chunks of just right pear on skewers, and they had designed it so it looked like a pineapple. And so we had that as a pre-dinner.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah, we're getting we're getting wankery. Yeah, okay, go on.
SPEAKER_00Pre-dinner and drink, and that was perfect with this very basic off their farm Pinot Grigio. And that's that's for me, it's it is a it's a coffee. It's not particularly yeah, it's not particularly a food wine. I would want something fairly simple with a chunk of parmesan, would be good with that. But now that I'm a cheese expert.
SPEAKER_02The last one I would call it a coffee. I thought it inoffensive. I would I would drink it without thinking a thing in my mind.
SPEAKER_00I would just drink the bitterness.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's so weird. I would just drink that without really thinking. I would maybe think, eh, there's nothing going on here, but it's not offending me too much. It's not impressing me. It is literally. Why do you think it's from Italy? Um, but I think that that's a lower quality Italian, I think that's classic for Italy. I just think that they are that's what they do. That the Veneto can produce a lot of Pinot Grugio. Chern. Chern. Baggage. Is that the official word? Well, it's not what I mean.
SPEAKER_00It's it's just all about volume over it. As long as it hits the style more or less.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's exactly what it tastes like.
SPEAKER_00God, if it's not, we've just insulted someone.
SPEAKER_02But but this first one, this someone has, I think, assuming that it's from the grapes and not the winemaking, like, and King Valley has altitude, so it has that coolness. They've picked it at a nice time where it has this beautiful acid drive that I really enjoy.
SPEAKER_00I think there's just more rigor. They said we're making a Grigio style. It's deliberate. It's yeah, it's not gonna be this, you know, one that you're gonna put down for 40 years and it's not gonna be burgundy, but we want it to be as delicious as possible as Pinot Grigio can be.
SPEAKER_02I think why number one tastes deliberate and number four tastes cookie cutter, and that is why I'm putting Italy for number four because they can cookie cut and good on them. You know, they've they've just style. It's the style. And number one tastes, I don't know, it's the outset. I really love it. So I would, yeah. Are we alright, Austin?
SPEAKER_00You two have gone four for four today. Well done. Yeah, no, this is why you should play at home with us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, next time we will give our tasting notes and people play at home rather than the other way around.
SPEAKER_00Because but that's the way you do it, folks. That is that watch bell, that is that analytic ability. You know, you you're not it's just not pulling it out of your bum. It's actually sitting there and looking at the structure of the wine, really importantly, not just the flavours and aromas, and that's what a lot of I think students fall down on. They like think I can identify that because of aroma flavours. This could have been a lot of things. We obviously we knew it was good, Gio, but yeah, it's what she that's how she does it.
SPEAKER_02I think another if anyone is thinking of going down the the what's it path, wet it two teaches you like how to taste that way, but wess it three is the one that gets you to do it and actually make a call or or do it do a tasting note.
SPEAKER_00That's the analytics, and can I just say write your tasting notes and then make a decision from you not from your tasting note as if someone's presented the tasting note to you? Yes, because it's taking your your overriding perception, you you t tend to think of what you think the wine is.
SPEAKER_02When you follow the systematic approach to tasting. Oh, well, no, I was gonna say if you follow, if you follow on TikTok or Instagram or something, if you follow an MW or in MS, so Master Some or Master of Wine, who they're they're slightly different, but both of the tastings are very similar. It the tasting portion is very similar, they do the same thing. It's they do it really quick. And and so like people feel tempted to taste it and go, oh, I taste that, it's that. Because it's I don't know whether it's a flex or a just human instinct to think, call it quickly. Yes, yeah, but that took me that long, and and like I got there, but as I said, you were like, What do you think it is? And I was like, I can't tell you yet, I have to talk it out to get there.
SPEAKER_00100%.
SPEAKER_02Those people and what Meg did though is do what I just did, what, every single night for how many years? Yeah, I mean No, genuinely, how many years did it take to study how how long did you study?
SPEAKER_00Uh uh probably two and a half, but I took a year, there was a year of gap in between. Yeah. But say three, say three years.
SPEAKER_02So three years. Okay, so these Master of Wines. We literally did. You sit there, and what I just did, what just took me that long, half an hour or something, to call those. Master of Wines need to go through that process every single night so that they can get to the they're still doing the exact same process, but you learn to do it fast, right? Yeah, because the thing is with the MW, you can't write a tasting note.
SPEAKER_00They're not interested. So you have to do your tasting note first, and then you have to make your analysis based on the questions in the exam. And you know, when we did it Saturday mornings, we'd be around at Tim Atkin, who's a journalist, and he'd have all these samples, literally a room dedicated to samples, and you would walk in there and he'd say you'd pick whatever you wanted, and then come out and you pour them blind. And then Tuesday night, Senior, who I mentioned, who is Livy Hoskins' aunt, I'd go around to her house and she we would always have a wine that each of us had brought, and we would do a tasting while her then husband was cooking some sort of delicious curry because he grew up in Pakistan and East India. Oh awesome. Anyway, but all the time we we were just I I can't taste like that now.
SPEAKER_02No, but no, it's it's it's a muscle, it's uh something that you it's like you know, you retain the knowledge, but I think the pace and everything and the like intimate knowledge of every single freaking wine in the whole world. It's analytical, but yeah taking your perception out. Totally if you don't follow MW hopefuls, are a great follow. And maybe I'll I'll put some on Instagram, I'll put something together and yeah, not the people that have got it, because they get cocky and they don't want to post themselves failing per se. The people who are hopeful and they sit there and they go They still haven't had the joy knocked out of them.
SPEAKER_00They've just do not know.
SPEAKER_02And they're getting a lot of it.
SPEAKER_00Because it is a brutal process, and it's fun to guess along. And the thing is, you learn as much from getting it wrong as you do from getting it wrong. And just don't attach your bloody ego to it. You know, it's not it's a party trick.
SPEAKER_02People always say to me, Would you do it? And I'm like, oh no. I like my life, I like living. Oh yeah, and I like wine. And I like wine, I don't want to lose my heart for wine. That's right. Why divorce rate is really high in MS and MWs because they lose their whole life, like the amount of study that it takes.
SPEAKER_00My husband, who I wasn't married to at the time, said to me, if I failed the last time I sat my tasting, you're not doing it again. And that's what he said. Because I because I got the theory first time and then I sat the tasting and failed, and then resat. And I rang him because I fucked up the white paper, and he just said to me, You're not like this is
Next Tastings And Sign Off
SPEAKER_00it, this is your last chance. I'm like, I'll make that decision, but I can understand high divorce rate, yeah. Well, I can understand that why, yeah, you know, but he loved it when I did get it, and we got to drink all the bolley at the reception, and he got absolutely fucking hammered. Oh, it was so cute. And Venice Hall, which you know, survived the great fire of London. It is well, that was fun. It was. Let's see. We should do one of these.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. We'll start doing it, but we'll do our tasty notes out loud to people that are.
SPEAKER_00Well, we did the Sira Shiraz. That was a really good episode, actually. Yeah, in the Red Room.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. All right. Well, um, I guess I guess we can do it.
SPEAKER_00We can do our content strategy meeting afterwards, not on the we are actually doing it in a few soon with Langie because you made a comment to me which I thought was pretty fucking brave. Langgy, it doesn't matter what you pay. Yeah, I did. So I've got out and bought four langies across four price points, and I'm gonna see if you, not me, can pick those price points.
SPEAKER_02Okay, fun.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, lovely. It's in uh two weeks, Austin's telling me. All right, so it's not next episode, it's the one after. Yes. I think next episode is sweet red's wine. Oh, good dear. We're really looking forward to that one. Well is hysterical.
SPEAKER_02When we did Queensland, I was like, there's not gonna be anything good out of Queensland, and it was awesome. So hopefully it's that.
SPEAKER_00If this comes out before the Queensland wine show, which I'm sure it doesn't, you guys need to contact us and send us your gold wines. Yeah, true, and give us a sponsored episode. That's the end of our show. Enjoy the wine. Drink well.
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