Gamay Gets Technical: Unleash The Geek!

Get your clipboard, lab coat and pen at the ready as Meg and Mel NERD OUT on this episode about Gamay. 

We go deep on Gamay and Beaujolais, from Nouveau history to why carbonic maceration can taste like lollies even when the wine is dry. Along the way we test a budget French bottle against a pricier Cru and an Australian Gamay, then share practical hacks for dissolved CO2 and reduction. 

Wine 1: Mommessin, Les Papillons Gamay, https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_132844/mommessin-les-papillons-gamay

Wine 2: Chateau du Moulin-a-Vant Gamay, 2020, https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_430458/ch-teau-du-moulin-vent-moulin-vent?isFromSearch=false&isPersonalised=false&pageName=category_page&spPageId=viewCategory_API_desktop&pageNumber=2

Wine 3: Golding, Adelaide Hills Gamay, 2024, https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_6008117/golding-adelaide-hills-gamay

Keep an eye out for Copper Coins...

Shake your wine if you think it's not quite right and tell us what you think!

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Gamay Today

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Hi, and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel. We're here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Al Guluco, joined by Master of Wine, Meg Brottman. We have Austin here, our producer. And today, Meg is um on the other side of a cold, and we were going to do champagne today.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

And then You were very sweet though. Meg messaged saying that she couldn't smell or taste anything at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

It was two days ago. I have improved somewhat since then.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Well, we were like, we probably shouldn't do champagne without her. Let's do gamet because she hates it. I was like, what will Meg not care about missing that I like? Gamay. So look, we have done Gamay or Beaujolais before in like a previous episode, but Meg is like not okay, by the way. She just had her first. But we thought we would do, we look, we're gonna recover Gamay, but we're gonna get a little more technical this time. I think the first time we did almost like a West It 2 type version. We're gonna go a bit more hardcore this time. So if you're interested in things with a bit more technical detail, I guess that's where we're going with this. Uh, we're going to taste the OG home and compare it with Australian. Meg, are you so excited to do get to do gamet?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Thrilled.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah. Thought you were deeply.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yay! Okay. Right, gamay. Tradition from Beaujolais. Yes. In France. In France. So three general styles of wine made.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Hey, sorry. It's Beaujolais. Everyone is always like talking about whether it's in Burgundy or not.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

No, it's the south and southern end of Burgundy, and it's not in Burgundy because it is Beaujolais. It has its own appellation, but it's very close. It abuts. Burgundy. It do you just use the word abut? A butts. Is that a real word? It is.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

A B U T T S. That's that. That's like really funny, right? Like that's funny. It's like it's I like big bits and again I laugh. Yeah, literally, it's like the butt of Germany. It's a butts.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

A Germany. It's like the butt of Burgundy. The bottom of well, the butts again. Yeah, literally, it's the butt. It's Burgundy's boom.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

And it really is.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

See what I mean? This is like a real high brow technical episode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

So

Beaujolais Styles And Nouveau Origins

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Beaujolais. Gamay. Great variety. High acidity, thin skinned, like bright cherry in colour. Generally makes three styles of wine. You have Nouveau, which is a wine that is made to be released, released in the third Thursday of November. And these Nouveau wines are made right throughout France. But the Beaujolais Nouveau became famous in the 1970s when there was a competition to drive the wine to London to see who could get the wine to London first. So people would drive cars. It was a whole thing. What? There was a whole Beaujolais Nouveau. So it was like the Great Race.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I only know about the Beaujolais, like people on the street drinking into the night. I didn't know about the thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

This is how it be it becomes it so big.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Why was there a race to London?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Because the Beaujolais Nouveau was really built for the UK market. Uh-huh. Nouveau's always been produced. So Nouveau is basically translates as new wine. Yeah. The wine is made not always with Gabonet Gabonet Gamay, but often with these thin skin varieties indigenous to various regions in France. Usually carbonic maceration, which we'll go into a bit later, because it does often go through a partial melolectic conversion as well. And then hot bottled, pasteurized into bottles. Hot bottled.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah. So the reason you do that because it hasn't gone, you haven't got time to get it through melolactic conversion. So you've got to get rid of all the bacteria possible. You can't add a shitload of sulfur dioxide because you're going to be drinking the wine really early. So it was hot bottled, so pasteurized 80 degrees, heated up really quickly and then headed down to kill everything off, and then sent off in cars to London.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Well, and there's a race to a race to get to the London market first. Oh, say you know what? Cute. Say what you want about France. They're great at tradition. Yeah. They they're great at the storytelling and the branding.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

The English wine trade would get involved and they would send people over with their old MGs. And you know, there was a cartoon on tech TV, I think, with Boris and Natasha the Russians with Schmutzley the dog. And I think that was kind of basic. I think it was called the Great Race or something. Oh look at her. Schmutley. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

No?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Boris? Natasha? Oh my god. Anyway, I digress as I do. So that's Nouveau. Then there's just sort of Beaujolais. So Beaujolais is made up of a big region, and within that region are 13 what they call crew.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Can you say how many can you name?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Top of your head. Morgon, Fleury, Moulonivant, Breuy, Cote de Bruy, San Regni, I think, and there's some another one, something to do with a more. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

I don't know if that's they're all correct. I mean, your MW was a while ago. It was a while ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

So that's that's that's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

This is not my region, baby. Oh yeah, no, no. Famously, not your region.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

So the wines, the crew wines, are made not to be consumed early. They're made to like a pinot noir. So they've sort of an entry-level pinot noir consumed within sort of five years. And more and more they're moving away from this sort of carbonic maceration so that they can have a little bit more structure to the wine, a little less of that bubblegummy fruit characteristic.

Carbonic Maceration Without The Hype

SPEAKER_02 6:51

And some people are actually aging in oak. So they want to make more serious wines. But with carbonic maceration, there's two the traditional was full carbonic maceration where you throw whole bunches in and you add a layer of carbon dioxide through ice, like dry ice on top. So you're forcing the grapes from an aerobic environment to an anaerobic environment.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

And that says to the cells So you're saying that it was an environment that had air, and and we've stripped the air from the environment. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

So because there's a lack of oxygen, the cells of the grapes no longer can respire.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Oh my god, you're so technical this episode. So they start to ferment. Can I can okay? Before you get technical. This is in the cells. Okay, okay. Wow. Okay. Meg's gone full science. I've far, far out. I said to where she could do it. You said we're gonna get full of level three. I said you could get technical, but yeah, you've gone hard. Okay, so let me just preamble the the easy to understand version. Is the grapes actually start fermenting and make alcohol within the grape within the cells of the grapes. Okay, well, I'll let you take over a second. Basically, the the the alcohol starts happening within the grape before you even usually you crush it, the the one the juice comes out, you turn it into alcohol. But in this case, you don't crush it, the alcohol starts happening within the grape. You can literally pick up one of these grapes and it'd be kind of boozy, which is fun. And it's not from yeast. And it's not from yeast, it happens within the grape. Okay, that is the simple version. Meg, go get intracellular fermentation.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Sure, you've heard about that guy whose lungs fermented when he was on a marathon. Yeah? And he died. Yeah. What? The same thing can happen to you. If I just deplete the oxygen from your lungs, I can force an intracellular fermentation in your lungs and he started fermenting produced alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

No.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, and he died.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

He made alcohol in his lungs. Yes. Look it up. Well, it's not that long. It was a few years ago. But he had no oxygen just because he was running too high.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Either? That's a great insult. Sport's not good for you. Anyway, so carbonic maceration is we starve the grapes of oxygen, forcing them into a non-oxygen environment, forcing that in-grape fermentation.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, okay, so wait. So if there's no yeast, how does it ferment?

SPEAKER_02 9:19

It's an intracellular fermentation. It's enzymatic. That doesn't explain anything that's unholy. Do you really want me to go into the NADPH pathway?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Can't you feel easy?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Like if it's not yeast, because okay, everyone who is listening who's done wess it, or like just everyone who's done any sort of wine, that like the formula you get taught is sugar plus yeast equals carbon dioxide. Alcoholic fermentation. Yes. So if there's not yeast, really simply for dummies, how does it happen?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

In anything to do with biology and biochemistry, which is the chemistry of cells, there is the respiratory pathway and then the fermentative pathway just biochemistry. By starving the grape of oxygen, we flip it from breathing. And within the cells, the enzymes convert chemicals in the cells to alcohol. But it's the enzyme.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

So it's kind of like how malolectic fermentation happens within itself without adding anything. You just change the environment and that's how it happens, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah, because there's malolectic acid bacteria involved there.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

I thought it was just done by heat.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Oh, for fuck's sake, no, you've been teaching WCT. Right. There is yeast-assisted fermentation, which eats the sugar and converts it to alcohol. Then there is biochemical fermentation, which is an enzyme which converts But malow happens accidentally. Not in the absence of lactic acid bacteria.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

But how can it happen accidentally?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

How can mal how can Because malactic bacteria lactic acid bacteria are present everywhere in the world. They're on your hands, they're in the winery, they're everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Right, so so the bacteria gets into the winery and it's already there.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Yes. But that's not this.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

This is this is awkward because she's kind of like my boss in terms of wess it when I teach, like she's the she's the leading wess.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Do you have to teach it at level two? I'm just wondering.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

No, you actually don't at level two. That's probably why I'm less across it. It's a level three. So it's a level three thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

This is yeah, this is an intracellular biochemical reaction converting, producing alcohol. You get to about 2% alcohol, and the cells just burst open because they can't handle that much alcohol. Releasing colour compounds, but the byproduct of the enzymatic fermentation is with true carbonic, 100% carbonic, is this really bubble gummy confected fruit character.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Because you were doing it on whole bunches, you'll often see some of that whole bunchy tannin as well. Whereas with semicarbonic maceration, what you do is you've got some grapes at the bottom that have been squished and so they've expressed juice. Natural yeast will start fermenting that. So this is a yeast-related fermentation using the sugar to produce alcohol that produces carbon dioxide, first forcing the ones on top into an anaerobic or lacking oxygen environment, and they start doing a semi-carbonic. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so some of it's just natural. That is cool, yeah. And with that, you get bright red fruit character, but less of that real confected bubble gummy character.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Because I remember like when we used to work at a winery together, I remember going out in and seeing in tanks. Yeah, there was some, like some were split or some weren't. And it's like, yeah, and there was some big bunches at the top that were still full bunches, but then there was some down the bottom, and I was like, is this carbonic or not? I'm confused. So that's that's what was semi-was. I got you.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

So that's what you don't have to do it. Uh for Nouveau, you do it because it brings it, like I said, it does do a partial.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

What if you didn't do it for Nouveau?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Like, would it just be the reason you tend to do it is what you want that bright fruit character.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

You also want it go does go through a partial malo conversion.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

So again, by chemical. So that's why people tend to do it, and people like that sort of style of wine.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Okay, but if you didn't do it, would it just taste Pinot Noir but crap?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Like well, it's gamut, so it does taste Pinot Noir but crap.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

That's why we're here, isn't it? Okay, just to be clear, a lot of people like this style, including me. Meg's personal opinion does not get to Trump everything.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

We do not endorse this position, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

We do not endorse this position generally as a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

I don't mind. I I guess my problem with it is I've had so much really bad Nouveau over the years, and I've had the very drunken nights on the third Thursdays in November.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

That's my life's dream to go to a nouveau night.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

It is fun because it's always the end. It was when I was working there, it was the end of vintage, it was cold, there was often lots of sausages and really good food involved, and you just get hammered. But we are here to talk about gametes.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

It does sound like a great.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

It's outside and it's cold.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

I don't know. You were like, oh, it's not that good, and then you were like, There's good food, you get really pissed, and there's heaps of wine. The people

Tasting Budget Gamay And Lolly Flavours

SPEAKER_00 14:47

are fun. The people are fun. The people are fun.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Okay. Anyway, so what we've got here is we've got a gamet noir. Now, this is actually a Van de France. So it's from Mommissin. They just talk about traditional winemaking, blah blah blah. This is a pinnacle brand, so gamay noir, just black gamet, it's exactly the same. And it's from Cancy in France in France, and I wish I could find out where, because I have a funny feeling this might be from the Loire. Because the Loire does have gamet. Do you think this has got how much was this? 15 bucks. 15 bucks. So do you think this 12% alcohol? Do you think this has got carbonic character? Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

It is like it's bursting on the floor. That's right. It's all just cherry and juicy red fruit.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah. Like cherry ripe and it's one of those coloured it's gittles. It's but it is just like just lots of red Skittles flavor.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

It's so easy to drink. It is like you could sit here and just punch that whole bottle. Have you got some, Austin? Do you like uh yeah, Austin needs a try? I think our everyday man Austin is gonna love this. This is like a real, just just delicious, quaffable wine.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I just you can't deny. It's smooth. It's I would never drink this again. It's yeah. But do you like do you do you acknowledge that like your bias is from your experience and that objectively this is easy to drink and yummy? I find the tenants quite raspy. Um stretching. Alright, Austin, you are a tiebreaker. You don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

I think that as hard as a dance as you've had on our previous sweet reds episode to now be like the gave is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

It's not phenomenal. I'm just saying it's easy drinking and nice. And it's not like a sweet red. I'm just saying like it's not sweet. It's not objectively sweet. Okay, everyone, sit down and listen. Your brain interprets these kind of flavors as sweetness. So there is a lot of times where people think that a wine is sweet when it's not sweet, and that is because that your brain is used to tasting flavors that are like these are lolly flavors, right? This this is like banana, yeah, like Skittles, Starburst, all these things are the flavors that are coming out of this wine, but it is coming out of this wine naturally and not because of sugar. But your brain hits your brain and it goes sweetness. Your brain just automatically goes sweetness when it tastes these things.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

People confuse fruit with sweets.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

People can fruit fruit confuse fruit fruit with sweetness. However, this doesn't have a super high residual sugar. This is not a sweet wine. It is literally your brain getting confused.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yes, so just to let you know, this is a blend of Beaujolais and conte toles, grapes from the southwest of France. Interesting, all on granite soils, because that makes a difference. Blended to perfection, quite a high level of dissolved CO2, which would be my complaint.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

If we were Semicarbonic maceration, any other grape variety and it was on granite soils, you would be like, nice granite soils. But because it's gamet, you're like granite soils, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Take the CO2 out of it, much nicer.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Okay, explain what just happened. What did you taste while?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

You know how I said it's got quite raspy tannins? Yes. When a wine has that sort of quite raspy tannins and the acid is sitting a little bit proud, I and it's a cheaper red wine, I often associate it with a high level of carbon dioxide because carbon dioxide makes tannin look drier and more acidic. So I just shake the wine, and you can see if acid's got it, it's got bubbles on it, and it just softens, takes the carbon dioxide out and makes the wine softer.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Is this a deliberate thing that the winery has done?

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Why is it like this? It's part there's residual carbon dioxide left over from when we do fermentation. Prior to bottling, we normally sparge with nitrogen to a level of carbon dioxide that we want, so say 6.6 grams per litre, which is where I'd lie with the red. For a younger, juicier red, you might go a little bit higher. I would have dropped it just back a little bit. But they it enhances freshness. So that's why they've done it.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

I just would have gone back as a winemaker.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

So, okay, so is this a tip that anyone can apply at home if you're wide? 100%. Wait, so what are you looking for? What is the key thing? When do you know to shake the bottle? Or or is there no harm in shaking every bottle?

SPEAKER_02 19:36

When you taste it and feel that it's quite dry and raspy. It's like you've had. Have you ever eaten a quince or an unripe pear? Yes, but that tannin?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Meg, that changed it heaps.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Wow. And you know where I learned that? When we made Game uni, and it was so bad that we and then we put sugar in our yeah, seriously, chip that out.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Oh my god, it just softens it out. Yeah, no, try it again though. That's really interesting. Okay, so next question is if if people taste what you just described, and this is across all varietals, right? Not just gamet, if people taste what you just described and check the bottle, is so if they see bubbles, they were right and it happened. If they don't see bubbles, have they just stuffed up their lovely wine? Nah. Nah, nah. Not unless they were planning to decant it and now you've spread the sediment everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I like I'd have to keep doing that for an hour. Yeah. Constantly shaking it to get rid of all the CO2. Yeah. So no, that one shake, it'll just soften it. Like I would do it probably again for me. There's no harm in doing it.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, cool. But the other thing is soften it on the nose as well, or well, less carbon dioxide means it might be less likely to less lift, yeah. Yeah. The theory, if that makes sense. Yeah. I'm so interested to see if Austin. Do you get a difference? Yeah, you like them or now? Yeah, much different. Listen, noise. Listen that, yeah.

unknown 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Acid. So this is fun. This is a fun episode. We should call this episode like How to Make Shit Wine Good. Or like more like unleash the geek.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Like, like what Unleash the Geek, what Meg will say if I be like I've drunk so much crap wine in my life that I know what to do to make it taste good. Shake it or add sugar. I smell an episode.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

If you'll really stand around.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

No, Kelimoto or Jote in Chile is having a comeback. And I think that could be one way of

A Serious Cru Beaujolais Reality Check

SPEAKER_02 21:33

using up all the charades that we've got in the world. Anyway, shall we move on now? Okay, okay. So I wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

We've been doing it at the seller door and it's selling a Beaujolais that was fancy. Like I wanted to spend money on Beaujolais. So this is like a $55 Beaujolais because I was like, let's taste literally the cheapest thing we could get from Dan's. And then conversely, let's taste something that, you know, this is this is money. Like this is real dollars spent on a bottle of wine. If you had $55, I think the last thing anyone would ever think to do would be to buy Beaujolais with it, but I wanted to see what would happen if we did. So Meg.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So this is a Chateau du Moulin Vant. This is a really traditional winemaker in the Moulin crew. Now, in terms of quality hierarchy, Fleurier is probably the pinnacle one. The pinnacle of and Moulin Avant's sort of your more everyday man kind of the common man of Beaujolais Crews. It is bigger. It is slightly warmer. This is a 2020 wine, which is interesting. But it's actually it's a pretty nice wine.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

So is it just Beaujolais Nouveau that you don't like? Can you can you drink it at a higher level?

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Uh A. I'm s I haven't had a lot of wine that's six years, Beaujolais that's had six years on it.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Me either.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

So I'm starting to get some tertiary characteristics. Which I would imagine just for Beaujolais for me would just be flat, boring, dull fruit. But actually, it's not. There's a little bit of almost barnyard forest floor that I expect from Burgundy. Oh my god. In there. But there's still a lot of beautiful, bright cherry, morello, cherry, sour, cherry fruit. So it's a really interesting wine.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Are we? Are we recommending people go out and find it?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

If you give me 55 bucks, man, I'm spending it elsewhere. But I would actually recommend I would buy this to have a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Where did you get this? Uh this is from Dan. So you're saying, like, from a learning technique. For me, from technical, this is really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Because it's true. When you teach Wesser, they the the general thing is. You just say Georges de Beeuf. Well, like they they say you don't age Beaujolais. And there might be some sort of disclaimer, like only the top-top bottles should age or something. And so you don't see it very often.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

But this, yeah, this is worth looking at. That is a really interesting wine. It's expensive. It's enjoyable though. No, it is. I mean, if we were at a wine bar and it wasn't, I would hope that that would be one of the cheaper wines on the list. And so we could sit there and go, actually, that's pretty good for we got good value for money and have it with some. I don't usually recommend chakruterie, but I think something salty with with that.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

That is an interest that is as a wine, a really interesting wine. And it it expresses gamet. Yep. But it goes beyond, it shows us what actually gamet can be. Can be potentially. And I've drunk a lot of this producer over the years. But I've only ever drunk it young, and I've always sort of written them off as a little bit of a oh. Yeah, it's not mass produced, but the sort of just very much the the common man of gamma.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Okay, so like I I just feel like there's like a blockbuster movie in here about the little grape that could, and just no one ever gave it a chance.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

And when you give it a chance, look at it, what it could be. Someone just needed to take a chance on this grape.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, I'm not putting money behind that movie, but I know, and if you talk to all the hipster groovers in the wine trade here, they do talk about the crew wines being age. They're actually trying to make ageable wines now, wines that will will age. So maybe go out and do more of a deep dive.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

My favorite Meg ism is that like when she doesn't agree with something, she just goes, That is that is Meg.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

I don't agree.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Well, I don't want to say you're fucking wrong, do I?

SPEAKER_00 25:57

But uh That is literally that is Meg translate So the translation is you're fucking wrong when you go anyway that's a good wine. Alright. So then the next thing that I wanted to carbonic maceration y?

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Not really.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

No, no, no, actually, do you think there's any?

SPEAKER_02 26:17

No, I can't.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Nah. And maybe that's my problem with it. You don't like carbonic more than you don't like gamet.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

I but I there's two things. One is the Beaujolais Nouveau or the Nouveau Nights that have screwed me with hangovers. It's like Saint Joseph, I just can't drink it anymore. And the other one, it was the first wine that Saint Joseph. Must be nice, by the way, to have drunk so much Saint-Joseph that you I got really sick once on Saint-Gioseph when I lived in London and my my flat. I was on the ground floor of a terrace, and I opened up my bedroom window, pulled the outdoor bin, and vomited in the bin, and then put it back out. And my flatmate went to put the bins out the following week and went, Oh my god, it's just full of vomit, and I could not drink Saint-Goseph after that. I can smell it and I just I can identify it straight away.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

But wait, as opposed to everything else.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

I don't really throw up on wine.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

But I mean, like Saint Joseph is a subregion. So you can drink from the rest of what Rhone, like, but just not Saint Joseph. There's like you can literally pick it up. Out of how many? What thir 13, 14, there's 14 subregions?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

No, that's Cruz. Cruz. That's yeah, that's of the Rome. This is the so Northern Rhone. So there's Saint Joseph, Crouse Hermitage, Ermitage, Coat Rotti.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Okay, but out of all those, they're all based on Syrah.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

And and this well, that is like someone saying, I only throw up when I smell Pinot Noir from the Adelaide Hills versus anywhere else in Australia. You literally just saying that's okay. That's probably why.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

I always used to say to M MW students, which is a terrible thing to say, if you really want to understand wine or never forget it, get so drunk on it that you throw up on it, you'll never forget it. Oh. But that's yeah, drink responsibility. Yeah, hashtag responsible drink.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

I think yes, for me we endorse responsible drinking. We don't advise it.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

For me, Nouveau is that you ever throw up on alcohol. Alcohol should be consumed in moderation.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

The other thing is, my first one that a uni that I had to make was a gamet, and we had to buy it. You had no choice, you had to buy back the wine that you made at a dollar a bottle at Roseworthy. And so we bought it, and because I was a poor student, we just drank it.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

And this is where we learnt to add sugar to it and de-gas it. Yeah, okay. I'm pretty sure my flat mate Warwick at the time, he'll tell you how bad it was.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

When you say add sugar to it, it's a teaspoon. You mean add a teaspoon of sugar to a bottle of wine?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

As in literally right now, you put sugar in your glass. Yep. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Do you have sugar syrup in your f fridge?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

I may get some wine.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

If you do?

unknown 29:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Drop of that. If you find the wine too acidic or too harsh and tannin. What? And it'll taste better.

unknown 29:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah,

Australian Gamay Plus Reduction Explained

SPEAKER_00 29:16

well, I guess the theory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Okay. So the last thing we're gonna do is because clearly I had to choose wines from this episode because Meg was not going anywhere near Gamay with a 10-foot pole. Uh so I wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I'm about to say about 60. 65? 55?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

55. Okay, so so basically what we've done is we've gone from the bottom of the French pile to the pr toward the top of the French pile. And now I just wanted to see what Australia's doing and to see how that compares. So we're gonna try something from the Adelaide Hills.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

It's so where are we seeing Gamay in Australia?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I mean, traditionally, in theory, it would be made most places that you would find Pinot Noir because it would have a similar climate.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Cooler climate regions, definitely. Cooler climate regions. Yeah, we're getting at Adelaide Hills, Yara, hits Tassie. Not being a big purchaser of Gamay, I'm kind of running out of places. There's somewhere in sort of Central Vic as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Anywhere that makes Pinot, could do it in theory. So I don't know. I think it's kind of cool and funky.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

It's kind of your gateway, one of your gateway wines, a bit like Pinot.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

What is alcohol? Okay, but this doesn't smell like carbonic, does it? It's not it's not fresh and juicy.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

It smells reduced.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yeah, it does. Do you want to let's recover?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

I just want to I've got a copper coin in my wallet.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

You want to lick a copper coin.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

I want to put it in the wine to see if it reduces the people wait.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Do you keep a copper coin in your wallet so you can wait, is that why you keep it there?

SPEAKER_02 30:52

I think I might have keeping it to next stop, actually.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yes. You literally keep a copper coin in your wallet so you can test if a wine is reduced. Yes. Okay, while you are finding this coin, can you please re-go over the concept of a reductive wine?

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Just to say, I actually think I may have given it to Nick Stock. Because he was the same as you going, do you literally have a copper coin in your wallet?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Okay, well, Nick Stock, you've ruined everything because that would have been really cool for this episode.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah, but I can bring you all one in next time, and you can all have your own little thing. How many copper coins do you just Oh, so Chili and Peso 100 peso coin is copper because Chile's the biggest producer of copper in the world. And we have hundreds of them at all.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Okay, so what is reduction and why does copper have to do with egg?

SPEAKER_02 31:46

When yeast get stressed, they produce a compound called hydrogen sulfide, bad egg gas. It can smell like bad egg gas at its absolute worst. It can smell a little bit like burnt rubber. But this just smells a little bit dank, earthy, and often it will just blow off with. And so, how do they get stressed? Why why are our poor little yeast so stressed? They don't have enough nutrition. Aww. So they're and they're producing alcohol, so they're producing alcohol in their little bodies and they're having to extreme that, excrete that alcohol through this little kind of pathway. And that lipid bilayer, I mean, we we could go really sciencey there. Um I mean, with this is this is the unleash the geek episode. So go on. A yeast cell is what's called a lipid bilayer. Okay. So if you imagine, how do you explain a lipid bilayer? Have you got my fingers? This is one lipid, and this is two lipids. So we're two little lipid bilayers, and there's sort of a gap between them, and the alcohol is extre excreted out through that. Those lipids are actually fatty acids. So when the yeast is dividing, we want to give them lots of oxygen so they produce more of these fatty acids because they're more alcohol resistant, which means they won't get stressed. But if we haven't given them enough food and enough oxygen in the early stages of their reproduction, they start going, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

So oxygen is their food? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yes. To build up their muscle. It's like their protein. So the they start internally they start getting stressed because they're producing this alcohol and they produce this byproduct of hydrogen sulfide, H2S. And it can be bad egg gas. Often seen in Shiraz. Shiraz has a propensity as a great variety to go to H2S, which is why when we make a lot of Shiraz, we do a rack and return ferment because we get a lot of oxygen in there. This has go and have a look at it now, it's blown off, even though we don't have a couple of.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Okay, so tell me what are you smelling?

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Um now I see more of that Morello cherry character because a hydrogen.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Sorry, but but what what what do you smell that calls out reduction? What's the smell of reduction?

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Do you know that smell of mud that just sits there? Black sand? Have you ever seen that?

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah, black sand, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

That's reduction.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Oh my god, that's a better that's better than what how I've ever described it. That's so true.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

And the yeast leaves themselves will become black because that's hydrogen sulfide. Black sand is such a yeah. I don't know if everyone knows what black sand is, but it's that wet, dank sand that sort of sits underneath it when you're digging stuff up, yeah, that is literally hydrogen sulfide. It's the same chemical. Mind blown. Hey, there you go. Science, kiki, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Well, what you just did wasn't well, that no, explaining that to me in a way I'd never heard before was more like creative, interesting rather than science. But no, but I I kept up with the science.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

I kept up yeah, so it's just so that people can how I mean, I don't know how you describe hydrogen sulfide. You know what reduction is in a wine, but how what would people see in their normal everyday of life? Because it doesn't always look like bad egg gas.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

You know, it doesn't always look eggy, it but it looks like that black. Well, literally, it smells bigger.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that was a really good way of describing it. Okay, so let's see. But this is blown off. So Murilla cherry smells moly cherry, it smells like plum. That's kind of it.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

It's the it's the tannin and the acid. It just is the the oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

It's sour. It is sour. Sour is the right word, and I prefer the $15 butter jelly to this one. Oh, I feel bad. Jesus, really? Yeah, I feel bad saying that because this is a good Australian producer. Wow. Zoom in on that, Austin. Look at the wow. It's been an interesting episode. Are we all glad that we got to do gave today? I am.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Oh, I'm thrilled. Of all the wines that we could be doing.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Okay, well, it's your fault we're not doing champagne. So none of this snug from you.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

I could almost go again, I reckon. Yeah, maybe it's just don't bottle it so nouveau, people. Give it a bit move it around a little bit in the winery to get rid of that dissolved CO2. Yeah. It just softens it. Maybe I'm just I'm a bit soft and I don't like that. It's not astringent, it's that sourness.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

It is, it's less, it's less sour now, though. Yeah. Okay. Well, the we've learned a lot about CO2, no. This was very geeky, but I kind of enjoyed it. And I think all our geeky. We've just used GAMA as a vehicle for a bit of science chat, which to be fair, was it was good. Yeah, it's it's really improved. That was a good tip. So people start shaking your head at home and tell us what you think. And I'll bring you in the copper coins so that you can have one in your wallet. How do we all get copper coins? How do people go about getting a copper coin? Wait, and what what what would have happened to the copper?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

So hydrogen sulfide reduction is H2S. Right? When you put a copper coin in here, the copper C U2 plus, if you remember your copper days.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Clearly, clearly, I drew.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

As if I would ever forget my copper.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

The copper iron comes out, and the copper coin will actually go from being a brown sort of two cent coin if any of you remember those, to a lovely, bright, shiny copper coloured cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

How long do you need to leave it in there for?

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Five minutes. Top set tops. Okay, so it'll happen automatically. So what happens is the alcohol starts stripping the copper out of the coin. The copper binds with the hydrogen sulfide, producing copper hydrogen sulfate. H C U H S O4. Yes, of course. Which falls out in the wine. Don't worry. Yeah. If you've anyone's got two cent pieces, if you travel chili, 100 pesos is copper.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

So if we order just anything copper online, we'll go go to Amazon. Yeah, those copper bracelets, you know, that they use for the old. That is so fun. Wait, is it reusable? So if you put it in a wine and it's reductive.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

It'll

Copper Coin Trick And Closing Wrap

SPEAKER_02 38:15

all be nice and clean.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

We should sell copper bracelet.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

We should make and sell copper bracelets for people to wear. But you can't put it in the glass. The beauty about a coin is I mean, it's around a light. Pendant, yeah, copper pendant. Yes. I've got a thousand hundred pastos coins that we can just make as pendants. I can see Mel just drilling them away. But it's interesting because when I did Young Gun of Wine, judging the young guns, I was judging with Nick's stock, and I did get my little coin out and put it in my wine and he's like looking at me and he said, Can I please have that coin? And I said, Sure, I've got plenty at home.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

I have about 20 business ideas a week, but this is one that I really think has legs. Like people would buy this. Like around your neck. If we made like a wine with Megan Nell copper pendant that people that people could put it on a necklace or around a thing, you you just take it off, put it in, you can check if it's reductive. Holy shit, this is a business idea. Watch this space. How do we trade markets? I was gonna do it before we do it.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

All right, okay, that's the end of the episode. I'm gonna go work on this business plan. I need to make it happen in three weeks before this episode comes out, so no one's still. There you go. All right, she's about to hyper focus. That's a lot of science. It was a lot of science. Probably too much, maybe a bit too much.

unknown 39:46

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Austin's got a thumbs up, so he has a good vibe on these things. But Sand does something good that I come out of it. Shake your wine if you think it's not quite right. Yeah, yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

It was a good episode. Yeah. And uh buy our trademarked copper coins. Yeah. For sale now.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

We're gonna make it happen within three weeks. TM.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Wine with Megamel. Okay. Gonna throw a copyright on it straight away.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Enjoy your week. Enjoy your next class of wine.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

And drink well and make sure it does and having too much CO2.