Wine News Goes Rogue: A Heated Debate About Whether Winemakers Matter To Brands Anymore

A winemaker gets cut, a flagship winery gets prepped for sale, and suddenly we are not talking about tasting notes anymore. We dig into the Oakridge bombshell: David Bicknell, the winemaker many credit with changing the direction of Australian Chardonnay, is made redundant after decades shaping the Yarra Valley’s most influential single-vineyard wines. The language around it matters, the emotion is real, and the business logic is confronting.

From there we zoom out into the Australian wine industry crisis and the structures that helped create it. We talk Endeavour Group, Dan Murphy’s, BWS, Woolworths, Coles, and the retail duopoly that has both selling power and buying power. We unpack “ghost brands”, why shelf space is everything, and how vertical integration can turn a product built on provenance and story into a price-led commodity. We also revisit the political side: ACCC scrutiny, Senate inquiry warnings, and how quickly important reform can disappear when the spotlight moves on.

We do not pretend there is one simple fix, but we do land on practical actions for drinkers who want better wine and a healthier industry: check the back label, understand who is importing and controlling the brand, and buy direct from small producers when you can. If this conversation sparks a reaction, share it with a mate, subscribe for more, and leave us a review so more people can find it.

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Transcript

Welcome And A Sudden Detour

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi, and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mal. We're here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Meg Lukas, joined by Master of Wine, Meg Brotman, and as always, we have producer Austin here. I'm gonna be perfectly honest, we started this episode thinking that we were gonna do a wine news, but we started talking about everything that is.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

They invited me along and you know at Oak Ridge. Couldn't shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah, honestly, it turned into a really a deep dive into not just what's happening at Oak Ridge and David Bick now being our maid redundant, but it's turned into a bigger piece about what led to this years and years ago, the the duo the duopoly behind it, the politics behind it. And honestly, it turned into a kind of really heated debate between me and Magwe Gal a little bit. Or could keep going. We could. My God, there is some wine being consumed in the room today. If you're after your general wine news next week, we are going to be going into what happened in terms of the vineyard that we've just come out of, at the vineyard, the vintage that we've just come out of this year in Australia. We're going to be going into what's going on in Europe, what that's going to mean for the wines in Europe next year. We're going to go into a bit more light, fun, what's going on in the industry stuff. But honestly, today's kind of heavy heated theoretical debate, a bit of history, a bit of politics. If that's for you, listen on. If not, we'll see you for your regular wine news next week.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

We're grieving.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Anyway. Anyway, go. But first, the first thing we do have to cover. The biggest news that has been happening in the last week is, I don't know. I I feel like it it rocked the industry. We're both based in the Yara, so it rocked us. And we did live in a microcosm of the we live in the microcosm of the era, so we we acknowledge our bias toward the region, but Oak Ridge is no doubt one of the biggest names in Australian wine. 100%. And the iconic winemaker after the last 25 years of Oak Ridge, uh, David Bignell, has departed from Oak Ridge. And departed. No, he hasn't departed. He was made redundant. No, departed is the word that we use.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

No, David Bignall has made it very obvious that he did not want to leave.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

I was and I on on the I was gonna I was gonna explain that from a marketing perspective, but from a marketing perspective, departed is the kind of the word that gets used when Do we need to use those euphemisms?

Oakridge News Hits The Yarra

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Um marketers do when you want the business you work for to not come out looking bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

He was made redundant. Yeah. He did not want to leave. Bignal or Carlos, as he's known in the Yarrow Valley, changed the face of Australian Chardonnay. He won't mind me saying this. Arrogant, mouthy motherfucker. But an incredible, incredible winemaker that just stuck to his guns and gave a finger to everyone. And the thing is, when uh Bicknell was doing what he was doing with Australian Chardonnay, people got on the bandwagon and we were seeing all these really underripe Chardonnays that were like almost like Sauvignon Blocks in shows. That's not what Bignel was doing. He was he was crafting these most amazing wines from single vineyards, and he has a love for Cabernet as well, but Chardonnay was you know the babe. Extraordinary, extraordinary winemaker. And he he has changed the face of Australian Chardonnay and the quality of Australian Chardonnay, and uh it Mick Nick Ryan made the comment, it's like selling Rolls-Royce, but stripping out the engine before you sell it.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, so a couple of things. Yeah, let's start with the fact that normally when we talk about wine news, we're talking about things that aren't actually in major newspapers. Like if you picked up the Australian, they're not covering the shit. Like, like this is how much of a big news it is, is he had that much of a huge effect. Oh it's in all the major newspapers. But to revisit, and we covered this last week, so hopefully you're in last month. Sorry, why news is the fact that Oak Ridge is being sold by Endeavour. It's part of a reshaping of their going concern.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

So an operating business. Yeah. Yet they have stripped out from that business the key person. I mean, Dave would have shared everything with all his winemakers, he would have passed on his knowledge. I'm not I'm not saying that they that they don't know what to do, but he was the face of Oak Ridge.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

He took it from a struggling wine brand to a The reason that this has probably happened is when you sell a business, you generally sell the staff that go with it. There's different negotiations, but if you were buying a winery, the smart thing to do would be to buy the staff because they know what's going on there and they can keep that continuation. But they probably looked at the total sale price and it's my guess he was too expensive. It's too expensive. There's one way to being like, okay, so far we don't have any buyers, it's been out of the market for about a month, no one's come to the table. How can we make it a cheaper sell? That's one way.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

And you mean Mel might end up cutting this. Businesses that are only business driven don't focus on the people and the passion. And Dave was the people and the passion, and he drove that team, but that doesn't

Made Redundant Versus Departed

SPEAKER_02 6:08

add up in numbers, that doesn't add up in sales, that doesn't add up in loyalty or whatever. So it's very easy to look at oh, your salary. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah, I I'm gonna disagree though, because I think that it's it's more of a stretch, but I do think that someone like Dave Pignell adds equity to your brand. 100%. So I think it was a really interesting move. If I was buying, if I was looking at buying Oak Ridge, you'd want Dave. I I would not want to buy it without Dave.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Oh, yeah. Like, David, and this is the thing that I always say with all my imaginary money. So when I talk to wineries, I always say, Don't ever align your brand with the winemaker. Yeah, true. Um, I think it's it is very, very dangerous to do that. I you can highlight them, but don't ever align it. And but Oak Ridge was of another age, and look, to be honest, Dave and his team built that. So Oak Ridge was a brand owned by Michael Zitzlaff making cabernet up in the upper Yarra. And when I was overseas, I'm I'm not sure when, but they they Dave and I think some other people bought it, and I think in mind that it was going to be a cabinet brand because it was, and then looked at it's hey, Chardonnay's a little bit unsung hero here. And so elevated Chardonnay. He I probably maybe with Mac Forbes has elevated that single vineyard mentality in the Arrow Valley. So the Fundra and Diamond, the 864, you know, Willow Lake. Oakridge put Willow Lake on the map. It's like it's a freaking tragedy, and he'll he'll be fine. He's an extraordinary winemaker, he'll be fine. But it's what it says about the value of the brand by Endeavour that I And maybe Maybe I'm being really romantic.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

You are a little bit. I kind of like it. You're not usually this romantic. But I'm gonna give you the opportunity now to continue on a little bit because you said that I don't know who wrote the article.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

You wrote you said that you I haven't looked at it, but you read an article that do you wanna Okay, so this article is in wine titles, and forgive me whoever wrote it, I do not remember your name, but it's published in the Australian Grape Grower and Winemaker, but you can get it digitally available. So what they did is they looked at how the wine industry has ended up where it is, and it's things that we've alluded to over the the you know, various podcasts, but basically allowing the duopolies of our wine retailers to go into the wine production area was a big issue. That the AC ACCC, to be fair, if I was I'm gonna name them Woolworths or Coles, there's a hole in the market, and the ACCC is doing fuck all about it. You go for it.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

You're a business, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:07

You're a business.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah. 100% right.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

If there's a hole in the market, you go for it.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

So basically, this person who wrote this article uh talks about these ghost brands. And in Endeavour Group, Dan Murphy's BWS, etc., there are 200 ghost brands. Is that like home brand? Home brand. Pinnacle. So they have they're not associated with anything, but they mimic real brand. And within the Coles group, there are 95. So that's 200 spaces on a shelf taken up by own brand wines. And in so this this was all happening in sort of the early 2000s. In 2004 and 2005, it was flagged as being a bit of an issue within the government. Nothing was really done, it was flagged as being an issue. In 2016, there was a one of those Senate review committee things in the government brought on by the Turnbull government saying, hey, is our duopoly? And there's a duopsony as another word. So they're buying power and they're selling power. They so it's not only the ability to sell, but the ability to buy. So what happened according to this article is that during the 2010s, South Core

When A Winemaker Is The Brand

SPEAKER_02 10:28

had been taking over all these pen file brands, and they realized that they needed to flog some booze. And so the duopoly, particularly Woolworths in this case, said, Yeah, we'll do it, but at a certain price. And that set the bottom price. Yeah. So for any winery that wanted to compete, they had to go in at during the 2010s at that price. Then in 2016, uh, 2015-2016, there was a review, a Senate review committee, and Senator Xenophon flagged all these issues with the duopoly, the fact that the ACCC was completely toothless and had done nothing about these the fact that Woolworths could own wineries, the vertical integration of the industry. And then they made all these recommendations, acknowledging that it was wrong, made all these recommendations, and then the Turnbull government called a double dissolution on government, and it all went dark. Because, hey, who cares? It's Turnbull was what's double dissolution. So they dissolved the the parliament. So in 2016 there was a double dissolution of the government, it was all about politics. Turnbull went up against Abbott, blah, blah, blah. It went dark, as he says in the article. And the duopoly likes operating in the dark. So it was just ignored. They bought into, I believe that Endeavour bought into it with good faith. They're business people. But on top of uh Bignel being made redundant, Michael Fragos, who was 23 years at Chapel Hill, was also made redundant. Yeah, yeah. Now we don't talk about that as much because Bignel probably was more of a rock star than Fragos, but Fragos made some amazing lines.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

The Australian amended their article. It was originally only about Bignel, and then they put it out again to include both of them.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah, so he was made redundant. He hasn't actually made a comment. I thought Carlos's comment on his Instagram was classic. I've you never know when you're gonna be boned. And so it is. This is the thing, there is a human face to profit. And I just as a wine industry romantic, but also understanding the business of it, I just think at someone who has been an iconic legend who has changed, who has elevated Australian Chardonnay, particularly Yarrow Valley Chardonnay, but has elevated Chardonnay to the most extraordinarily extraordinary levels. Not important.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Do you know what it was expensive? This thing that you just said about politics, it's coming up again and again. And I have a theory that I'm interested in. What you think? I was telling a friend about it. She was like, she had no idea that wine was most people don't know that wine is in crisis. Most people don't know that the wine industry is.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Well, the premise of this article is this crisis was created in the early 2000s, early 2010s, that by this duopoly and it's a political thing, kind of it's a political failing.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

ACCC is and in the same breath, right, this year the budget has come out. And in the same year this year the budget has come out, and there's what shit all that's gonna have wine. And I was explaining to my friend that she's like, Oh, but it's wine, right? You know, like if you think about it, you know, it's not good for you, blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, if it was dairy farmers, who cares what so steel? But like, oh well, yeah, true. But like dairy farmers, I think, are our nation's dairy farmers, I think, are kind of like the call mining's not fucking cooking. God neck, let me finish my sense. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Dairy, dairy. Dairy farmers are kind of set up as like the, you know, even though vegans don't agree with them, they're the they're the blood of the earth, you know, and we'd like to support them and we'd like to support our farmers. And it's like just because the product they're making has nutrition versus wine, which is more recreational, does it make their lives more important? Because either way, there's a mental health crisis. Either way, if industries are dying and farmers are not having a good time to the point of crisis, does it make a human life more valuable?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

I would encourage everyone to read this article because in that he does

How Retail Giants Entered Wine

SPEAKER_02 15:03

say what South Court did in the 2010s with the discounting with the duopoly was the dairy's in dairy industry's two dollar milk. Yeah. Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

So I worked in dairy during the era of $2 milk. I was a part of the problem.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

It's taking True though. I the thing is, wine, I I believe, and generally, wine isn't a commodity. And a commodity is uh by you know, dictionary definition is a tradable asset. And wine has a sense of provenance and story attached to it. There is a tr there is commodity wine without a doubt, but most of us work in, you know, the sort of wine that has provenance and story. And the duopoly is working within the commoditization. It could be baked beans or it could be coffee.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Doesn't matter. And they're slapping their own label on the baked beans and the coffee. Because they're filling a market with that we want to drink wine and there's no sense of story. Uh I recently I bought a bottle of wine from Dan Murphy's, and you know how it had pinnacle used to have pinnacle on the back, it actually says imported by Endeavour Group. So they've made that change.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

They've made the change.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

So there, yeah, there was a remote. And that was one of the things that the whole Xenophon thing in the 16 said that they needed to do, but there was way more than that. Uh just read this article. It is, and there's going to be a series of them.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I am interested in what Usna has to say though, as the common man.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

I think the same amount of people that wouldn't acknowledge that Pinnacle Group is um Endeavour won't understand that Endeavour is Pinnacle. Is Pinnacle is PWS is Woolworths. Um I don't think people will be able to differentiate the two.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

So and then Paragon wine estates, which is Oak Ridge and Chapel Hill, they they've done very they they've done a good job in removing themselves from the behemoth that sits on the top, which everyone does in branding. And Mel, as a marketer, would recommend that people do that. But I I actually thought it was encouraging that on the back rather than Pinnacle they had Endeavour.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

It's one step closer. But yeah, it's look, it's if you Google Endeavour, it's getting you closer than if you Google Pinnacle.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Read this article, it's in wine titles. It was in Daily Wine News a couple of days ago. But uh look, I my heart goes out to these incredible winemakers, Dave McW Bicknell, uh Michael Fragos, who you know have changed the face of Australia and white.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

You know what? I I texted Meg when I found out, and I just wrote, Oh my god, Bicknell. That was all I said. Do you remember what you said back to me?

SPEAKER_02 18:01

It came down to money.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

No, it's just the beginning. And I think we need to actually remember that the wine industry, supply and demand, is not in the right place. And it's gonna take us a long time to get to the right place. And I just think this is the first, where this is not the end we're seeing of this.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

No, no, they're getting rid of. I

Ghost Brands And Shelf Control

SPEAKER_02 18:18

mean, for us, a person is attached to the wine. So for me, Oakridge and Bignel just go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

I think it was just a shock. Like, I think that, like, generally speaking, we know that wine has to restructure and and it is do we need to lose those people?

SPEAKER_02 18:35

That's my Do we need to lose more of the bucket of bullshit that coming up with these ghost brands in you know, Woolworth's home office and Cole's home office.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

You are being romantic and not.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

But no, but the thing is, they're the producers, and yeah, but you know, uh, and Bignall blood, sweat, and tears of that man. He has been so devoted to that brand, and he is the face of that brand.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Anyway, restructures. I am being romantic. Restructures happen in businesses all the time. Like this is not this is not abnormal, right? Oh my god, Meg, let me finish sentence. Restructures happen in businesses all the time. I have only worked for like a few different businesses, and I think there have been restructures in my god, Meg, hold your tongue. I think they've happened in every single one that I've been a part of. And you're always always people you love, there's always people that's restructures, it happens all the time. The reason we are rocked is because as a wine industry, and particularly as Yarrow Valley people, we recognize huge value in that particular person. And so to us, the value of that person is intrinsically linked to the value of Oak Ridge, and it just seems like a shock for it too. Okay, go, man, go. All right, one, why did they buy Oak Ridge for vertical integration of the industry so that they weren't paying the extra why did they buy Mentel?

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Well the same thing, so that's Joseph Cromy. Premium wine brands, they wanted that premiumization and they thought it was going to work. They have set up this fuckery. They have set up this industry for failure. And then they've got out. So they've got and I said to you a few years ago, I said though they will get out within five years. And I think it's almost five years. I think it was 2021 when they bought it, and it's 2026.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Now I'm the one holding my tongue, but yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

The same thing happened with South Court, with Vinic here, with buying all these successful brands and then turning them into mush. We should not allow legislatively businesses that are dollars and cents that deal in baked beans and coffee and you know, claggy old rice to get into an industry that is an agricultural long-term carbon sink industry. It's not a commodity that we can turn over, it's not like wheat that we can do, you know, year on year on year. Wheat's not working, I'm gonna plant soy. We we've got the plants in the ground, they're there for 30 to 50 years. We should never allow

ACCC And The Politics Going Dark

SPEAKER_02 21:19

this to happen. It has happened.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And the inevitable has happened. Yeah, and like look, the retailer model, to be clear, the retailer model, Chris Edwards. Is try it. If it doesn't work, get rid of it. That is that is their model. So we had when I worked at a different big drinks producer, uh, there was people who their whole job was innovation, and their job was to come up with wines that might or might not work.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

And the petisserie wine that we tried.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, that wasn't the brand, to be clear. But the the idea is that innovation is really big, and you put a wine in those retailers, they're gonna give it a month, two months. If it works, you put everything behind it, you put big bucks, all of a sudden it's a big brand. This is their model. You can argue with it, you can say it should. Be right, but that is their model. They try things, if they don't work, they pivot really, really quickly.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

But if you're investing in assets like vineyards, but that's their model and a winery.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And that's new. They've never done that before, though. They've never done that before. No, they bought Dorian. They thought that they could.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

They bought Dorian where they could churn out all of these ghost brands. Well, yes. And Coles hasn't gotten it.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

So they double down. But so they tried something new, didn't work, so you get rid of it. That's the retailer model.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

But then I look at the Aldi model. You know what Jason? What Jason's doing, he works with the producer.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Uh yeah, but yes, yeah, but also, I'm sorry, that's what he said in our podcast. Let's not be able to do that. No, they do. They they they don't they don't own any winery assets. No, you really don't own the assets.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Dorian should it all happened because Cellarmasters owned Dorian and Woolworths bought Cellarmasters and Brand Banduccio, and it's just Also the last thing that I would like to say is that this could be the only part of the one news episode, otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, I know. This is a whole episode in itself, actually. I mean it could be. The last thing I would say is that in bad times, in bad economic times, and in bad times in industry, things happen. Like think, like this is gonna happen. Like this is no, oh my god, okay. I'm just saying it doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean it's good, but we should expect it because in good times people give things more of a chance. In economically thriving times, you try something and it might be given more of a shot. In bad times, companies restructure, we get rid of assets. Like I'm just saying, this is just the start of a lot of things. Uh wine is struggling.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Companies because of these decisions by these companies and the legislation allowing it to occur, including the wit. If they had just fucking left us alone, we'd be struggling. Yeah. But not, we would not be digging our own graves and burying the bodies down there.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

No, politics. I think that this is a political story. Like that's a thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

It's this intervention in an industry that they had no business to fucking being in and we allowed it to happen.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

No, but it goes back to ACCC shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. Yeah, I know. I don't know that it's political. The duopoly doesn't have any morals, but I don't think no. I don't think they bought that. It's not that they don't have morals. If you don't get business, yes, I understand. You what you'll make money for business. CEOs get put in, CEOs of these businesses. Why did they buy they're not winemakers? Why did they why did they buy Oak Ridge? Because they because they saw trends that premium wine was going to make them money. When it wasn't making them money, they pivoted, which is

Human Cost And The Dairy Parallel

SPEAKER_01 25:18

what good businesses are. But they they actually had investment in the assets, the bricks and mortar, the land.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Yes. So I I think uh what part of the vineyard is I think the Hazeldean Vineyard's up for sale. If anyone's got a cup of million, give it to me. I will buy Hazeldean Vineyard. It's just I it hmm. I just find it so frustrating and so annoying that politics and legislation and uh business at all cost for profit has allowed this to happen. And I guess we could talk about the coal industry as well. I mean, it's the same sort of thing that it's business for for business sake. But I just think it's like it's surprising to you that the world sucks. I'm sorry. But like uh okay, so you No, no, I I am never surprised how fucked the world is. But what surprises me, what hurt uh hurts me is that we don't rally around it and say, hey, enough is enough.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah, politically that would be nice. There's not enough public interest in the wine industry. But can I just say one more thing? The we we know we both are aware of a business who treated it, doesn't it's look, it's it's most disappointing when it happens on scale, but even on smaller scales, businesses can screw over staff and viticulturalists, and we've seen it happen. And I mentioned it to someone in the restaurant industry and said, How how is it possible that you can screw over this many people, leave farmers high and dry, and still be able to go out and make wine and be a brand? And this person said to me, Ah, like this happens in restaurants all the time, like it's normal. And it that was depressing to me. It was like, it's normal, and I hate it. It's like the world sucks. That's the headline of this episode, the world sucks.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Thanks for tuning in. Good strict wine. This goes back to legislation. How can you be in a b be in a business where you fucked over people and then three months later start another business and go out? Same name, different different company name. I thought it was an annoying. No, no, no. And it's not.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah. No, I mean that's who we're talking about. Yeah. How how is that possible?

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I mean, it's just so I am a public emotionalist, but I am I'm the little person at heart, and I just I've I I do think ACC is completely truthless. I think the vertical integration of the industry is wrong

Retail Pivoting Meets Vineyard Reality

SPEAKER_02 28:19

legislatively, but also personally and business-wise, I just don't think it makes sense. And just because you can doesn't mean you should.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

All right. That's a slogan for a t-shirt, along with I need more wrestling.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

I They were right to test the fire alarm during this episode because sparks were flying in here.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

How long have you been sitting on that, Austin?

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Is that like are we not coming any more wine news?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

No, I'm I'm gonna call it that. Let's make this its own episode, I think. This is this is its own beast. People who are just after general wine news can listen next week. I think this is a whole episode about Big Now, about the duopoly, about the politics. That is the deep dive. It was a deep dive, it really was a deep dive. And so people who are interested in a deep dive and I I love respectfully disagreeing. I think that there should be more of it in society, and I'm glad that you and I can do it pretty, pretty well together. I don't think very well because you interrupt me a lot, but but we do it pretty well. Because she's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Fair, don't you think, Austin? Austin is our Swit is our Switzerland. Uh that's enough. We're gonna be back next week. Really well. Yeah. Can I just make sure you buy it from a small producer's website and just a real producer? Just buy it from a brand name. 295 ghost brands in our two biggest retailers.

unknown 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

No, everybody. Turn the bottle around, Pete. All right. Enjoy next clock.