231 Meet the Man With 980,000,000+ YouTube Views

🔥 Struggling with low conversions? Grab our FREE checklist of 15 must-have elements to optimize your sales pages! 👉🏼 https://datadrivenmarketing.co/elements

Mark Smith films birds in slow motion. That's his niche. Ospreys, eagles, hawks in ultra slow motion. And it's got him 980 million views on YouTube and 6 million followers across platforms.

In this episode I sit down with Mark and we get into how he built this massive audience from one incredibly specific niche. He picked up a camera again at 40, almost didn't start YouTube because he thought nobody would care, and his son had to convince him to post his first video. That video got a thousand views overnight and the rest is history.

We talk about why he compares himself to Bob Ross and how the best creators make things look possible for their audience. We get into why YouTube crushes every other platform for selling online courses and why short form content doesn't convert the same way. I also pull up one of his sales pages live on the call and walk through what's working and what's missing.

Mark is honest about the fact that he'd rather be outside photographing wildlife than working on his email list or his funnels. His email list is only 2,500 people despite having millions of followers. He knows he's leaving money on the table and we dig into exactly where that money is and what he could do about it.

If you're a course creator with a decent audience but you know your business side isn't keeping up with your content, this conversation will hit home.

🦅 Check out Mark's YouTube channel! https://www.youtube.com/@MarkSmithphotography

🎁 Want the free customer avatar course I mention during the episode? Drop me an email at john@datadrivenmarketing.co with "Customer Avatar" in the subject line and I'll send it over.

Transcript

From Field Stories To YouTube

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My son looked at me and goes, Dad, you gotta make this a YouTube video. I said, Oh no, nobody's gonna really care. And he's like, No, Dad, I'm telling you, please, YouTube literally changed my life. Literally. There is no joke. Sometimes it's hard to believe. Yeah. People will tell me, we came here for the video or image, but we stayed for the story. Your stories are are just unbelievable. I would rather be out in the woods photographing birds than trying to make an email sales funnel. I know I'm leaving money on the table.

Meet Mark Smith And His Reach

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Would it be all right if I I'm just looking at one of your sales pages at the moment? Would it be all right if I kind of talked you through, you might not want to do this, but uh I'm gonna talk you through like what would be needed to make that sales page way better and actually convert way better. Hello and welcome to the art of selling online courses. We're here to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. My name's John Ainsworth, and today's guest is Mark Smith. Now, Mark is an award-winning wildlife photographer and filmmaker based in Florida, best known for his breathtaking ultra slow motion videography of birds of prey, particularly ospreys, eagles, and orcs. His work has been viewed over two billion times across different platforms, and built a following of over six million people combined across YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. And in November 2025, he won the Content Creator Award at HIPAA in Dubai, one of the world's most prestigious photography competitions. He's also a best-selling author and runs photography workshops and tours internationally. Ark, welcome to the show, man. Wow, thank you. That was quite the introduction.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

You're the one who's had the life, you know. Yes, true, true. Sometimes it's hard to believe. Yeah.

Workshops Versus Online Courses

SPEAKER_02 1:38

So talk us through because you you've got a couple of things, right? You've got obviously massive following, a lot of people watching your videos, you've got online courses, you've got in-person workshops where people can actually come and and uh join you for uh photography. What's the kind of the breakdown? Is the online courses a big part of your business? Is the workshops bigger? How much time are you spending on that versus the actual just doing the photography yourself? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Um I I would say the the in-person workshops are currently um more larger in the sense of profit for sure. Um the online courses are are great and somewhat new. Uh I I've only been doing like online courses for maybe a year and a half. Um, okay. Yeah, so I don't have a ton of data to compare it to the in-person experience, but um, they're working as well. Uh as far as going out, I I go out every single day. If if I can have clients that want to come with me, that's cool. If not, I I go out for myself because I enjoy it so much. And it's a good way to uh capture content as well for all of the social media stuff. And it like any craft, um, the more you do it, the better you get. So it's just always like, you know, refining your skills and practice, you know, regardless of where I am or what I'm doing, like as far as taking other people's or by myself.

Why Video Courses Beat PDF Guides

SPEAKER_02 3:00

So what inspired you to start doing the online courses as well, since you already had the the workshops in person?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So in the beginning, I I was making online, well not online, I was making videos on YouTube that would kind of give you instructions on how to do certain things. And then I would sell kind of the entire sum of whatever that was as like a PDF guide. Um and just with technology, the the shift and being able to create video easier, uh, my knowledge as well. And then realizing that a PDF guide was leaving a lot of teachable like quality on the table. Like it, like you can convey a lot more in video than you can a still non-moving PDF guide. Um, so that really just seeing the shift in technology and my own understanding made me want to try to do that and see how that went as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

And then what's kind of your approach for selling those? Like, are you trying to get people onto an email list and then running promotions? Are people just from your YouTube channel finding your courses? Like, how are you promoting them?

Social Platforms That Actually Convert

SPEAKER_00 3:59

All of it, all of the above. Um, social media is the biggest draw for me. Um, I have found each social media platform is different as far as the draw, too. YouTube seems to be the the best for me uh for mm for getting people. Um it sounds it sounds weird to say, but to getting like getting people to a sales funnel of whatever that is, YouTube seems to have the the the biggest draw for me. Um other social media platforms like Instagram are great, and you know, I have a lot of growth there, but it it those appear to be more just kind of scrolling, like they like just the average everyday person that probably doesn't even own a camera. And that's fine too, because you know, my goal uh in doing this isn't just to create money. I mean, that's that's a great thing to be able to do what you love and get paid to do it, but also to be able to expose people to the outside world and maybe inspire them to think of how they live their lives differently based on some of this content I create, I create is also part of my drive to do what I do, if that makes sense.

Long-Form YouTube And Buyer Intent

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, totally. And it fits what you're saying in terms of the the audience and who's buying the courses, it fits with what we're seeing with nearly every client. So everybody who has like 90% of the people that we work with who are who are making money from selling courses, the the majority of their revenue comes from their YouTube audience. So it mostly goes YouTube to email to actually sell the course. You can sell directly from YouTube, but it's like the it doesn't work as well. It works much better if you get people onto the email list first. But it seems to be YouTube long form content converts to the right kind of people who will then buy courses versus it's short form on YouTube, short form on Instagram. It's like more transitory, less, less kind of involved in that kind of thing.

Choosing What Courses To Build

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's uh yeah, I guess less involvement. Like you like it's easier to to scroll through shorts than it is like long form. Long form answers a lot of pain points for whatever it is you're trying to do. Like you can you can answer a lot of questions. And I think people notoriously have always turned to YouTube for answers. Uh uh like um I know I have, like, I I think a latch on my car broke, and I was like, Well, I'm not sure how to fix this. And the guy wanted like$800. I'm like, that's ridiculous for a latch. Found a video on YouTube, got it done in five minutes for like 20 bucks. So I mean, YouTube is a great resource for almost any question you could ever ask. So I think a lot more people turn to YouTube for um for help and for answering questions. So I think that's probably why.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

How did you choose what courses you were gonna make? Because for 18 months, you've got four courses live now, which is great. That's that's a lot of courses to do in in that kind of period of time.

The Shift From Stills To Video

Small-Group Workshops And Logistics

SPEAKER_00 6:34

How do you decide what you're gonna do? I just launched one last night, as a matter of fact. Uh really school too. I I launched an online course last night and then an in-person course the day before. Just following um trends I see in what I do. Um like what I do a lot of the times with the content that I create, I'm I'm using pretty technical, highly computerized cameras that not everybody knows how to do or knows how to get the most out of them. And because I'm out there putting the hours into these things, I figure out all kinds of little quirks and tips and tricks and stuff that that make them easier to use. Um, so it just makes sense. It kind of falls into what I do. Um, because I might have, you know, uh camera A that I used for the past six months and I've captured all of this amazing content with it. It just makes sense to say, hey, if you're a photographer and you want to learn how I do what I do, you know, with this camera, here's the proof. Um, and then I I can help you, you know, with this course or that course. Um the the the big shift that I'm seeing, and I think a lot of people probably already see this too already, is there's a shift from like in my world from still photography to video. So hardly anybody really knows how to capture video. So that was one of the courses that I just did. The in-person course is like a two-day extensive um trip with me to where like we go out into the wild, wild world and capture some footage, and then I show you how to edit it for um whatever your goal is, social media or for showing the family, whatever. And then uh I spend two days with them, get them some results, and then uh kind of let them set them free, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

How many people do you tend to get when you're doing those in-person workshops? How many people can can join you on that?

Managing Personalities In The Field

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Uh this one I've made small. So um each group is only three people, and it will be me and me and my son. My son is also um he's very good at all this stuff too, and he knows all the animal behavior and the camera stuff. And he's also an excellent video editor as well. Um, so with the three people, they'll have kind of two sets of eyes guiding them the entire time. Um, other ones I've done much larger. I've done groups of up to 10. It just depends on where where I'm going um and how to how to make it profitable. Like uh there's a there's a happy medium with this. You know, if if you have 10 people, there's probably going to be some people that don't get as much time as they need versus three people. But sometimes when you're going somewhere exotic, say like Africa, three people, there's not enough profit in three people to even pay the bills. So you might have to do a larger group to just even break even and some of those things. Because some of those ex like those excursions or safaris can get very, very extensive, and especially in Africa. So um more people then will obviously, you know, make more profit. But again, you have to find a happy balance between keeping them happy and making sure everybody gets enough attention um during that. And I think that one of the most interesting things and I've learned with doing this, like the in-person thing, that like the challenge, the real challenge is balancing personalities. That that can be very difficult when you have a large group. So smaller groups make it easier to uh balance those personalities either beforehand or immediately during the um beginning of it. And like one bad person can ruin it for everybody. So you you have to be able to balance that really, really well. And if there is going to be a problem, you have to be able to isolate it quickly so it doesn't affect all of your other clients. So that was the thing I never anticipated that I've learned to do quite well.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Help everyone to kind of get on during the that's interesting. Okay. Yeah and what kind of so what's the biggest groups you ever do then when you're doing in-person? Uh the biggest I've done is 12. Okay, so still like not a lot of people. It's just like it's a lot maybe to manage when you're in the middle of a safari, but like if you think about what the kind of size workshop someone might do in a in a you know conference room or something like this, it could be a much larger. Okay.

Speaking, Awards, And Global Reach

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Well, I've done some public speaking um and I've added that like to my my things to do. Uh I started doing that last year. So I mean that's I think that's a little bit different because so far with the public speaking stuff that I've done, it's not teaching like techniques of of photography. It's more people want to know more about you and the struggles that you have gone through to get to where you are, you know, kind of like TED Talk stuff. You're trying to be an inspiration to other people with your life. And so I think that's a little bit different. So, but I've done that I don't know, four or five times now. And it's that's uh that's a lot of fun. I really enjoy that because you get to meet like in Dubai, when I when I won the award in Dubai, I was uh a keynote speaker on one of the days. And so that was amazing because I got to meet a bunch of people that live in that area that would never be able to come to the States and meet me. And so it was neat to see uh and meet them, uh especially some younger people that again, they would never have that opportunity. So to actually be able to have uh face-to-face talk with them and then ask questions and you can answer them. That was that was really special.

Email Reluctance And Missed Revenue

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So nice. What's the focus for you with the uh you mentioned that you are kind of doing all of the above in terms of selling these things? It's like do you do a lot of work to try and build up your email list and and keep that warm? Or is that like kind of a uh is more of the sales coming in from people just going from YouTube directly to your to your website?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

My email list is my smallest marketing tool in my toolbox. Okay simply because I'm probably biased in this way. You know, I I've gotten on email lists from other creators and it it gets annoying to me. Yeah. I don't want to I don't want to be that person. So I I I try to do like if I do a mass email, it's very short, very sweet, like one paragraph of that, just saying here, like I know you don't have a lot of time. Here's what I'm telling you I have now. If you're interested, cool, go here. If not, you know, have a good day and thanks for supporting me. So it's not too flashy, and I know it's not like the typical sales funnel that most people have. You know, um, it's very, very basic. My goal has always been to have like proof in the pudding, as they would say. Uh, and by creating content on these platforms, I think that's a better tool for me and what I do because I can just be mean and I don't feel like I'm intruding on their lives, if that makes sense.

Selling Without Being Annoying

SPEAKER_02 12:50

So I would say there's a a good to very good chance that you're leaving a lot of money on the table in terms of not focusing on email. Now, I I'm kind of saying this like it's not an absolute certainty, right? Yeah. I don't know what your priorities are because your priorities might be like, no, I want to feel this way about the business rather than necessarily make more money from it. But like having looked at, I don't know, three worked on 300 different uh course creator funnels, virtually always about 80% of the potential revenue is in the email list. It's like getting people from YouTube to email and then from email send out the promotions and make the sales. And I think the thing that, like you say, that the thing that most people and most course creators certainly want to avoid is being that annoying guy who sends out emails that people don't want to receive.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

And my experience is what we what we the approach that I take is try and figure out how to send emails that are promotional and that people love receiving. Sure. And if you can combine the two, which isn't the easiest thing to do, right? But if you can combine the two of those together, you get to feel good about it and make a bunch more sales as well. Because there's just for whatever reason, the attention span that you have with people, if they're on your email list, is much higher than when they're coming just straight from YouTube. So you you're able to kind of build up the interest through a series of emails to get them excited about whatever the thing is, the course, the workshop, etc. You know. And then you're more likely to make the sale on it.

Nature, Storytelling, And Perspective

SPEAKER_00 14:24

So no, no, I I I know, I know this, and I know I'm leaving money on the table. Um, but for me, I I don't know that that's the least creative part. You know, I think this is the common problem you have with artists and business. Artists want to make art, they don't want to do business. That's that's basically what this is. I would rather be out in the woods photographing birds than trying to make an email sales funnel. So pretty simple. That makes sense. Yeah. I that's probably why you became a photographer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I know, I know I'm leaving money on the table. Um it, you know, maybe it's something I should focus on in this year. The I think the real problem I have is I always have many, many irons in the fire and a lot of projects to work on that seem better than focusing on that list. So yeah, I I just finished uh uh the manuscript for a book that is supposed to be released this year that kind of goes w with all of this stuff. Yeah. So that was that was a huge project that I was uh you know working to get done. Um so that freed up a lot of resources. So nice.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

What's the book then?

Gear Talk: Bodies, Lenses, Costs

Live Sales Page Teardown: Headlines

SPEAKER_00 15:29

It's tentatively titled Spirit of Birds. So it's uh um gonna be around a 250-page coffee table book that's different than most coffee table books because it will it will kind of be an introspective look into the photos and the lives of these animals and how much they are similar to our own. And I think the one path that I've seen the clearest on doing all of this is you go out into the wild with your camera, uh trying to understand these animals, and in the process you learn more about yourself. So it's kind of that whole Zen-like mind state that you get by making this connection with nature and through your camera or through any form of art, really. Um, so yeah, it's been a lot of fun to write. And it I think the the really interesting thing is I've I've had many, many, many, many unbelievable things happen with me with these animals. And I think that's what's gonna make this uh really stand out. I have a lot of very interesting stories to share with photos to go along with it. So um it's kind of also what has made me successful, to be honest, in my niche, um, is you know, people will tell me, you know, we came here for the video or image, but we stayed for the story. Your stories are are just unbelievable, and we love it. And you know, that's where people really seem to enjoy my content over others, is my ability to to tell a story. So it makes sense. It makes sense in that in that bigger picture to have a book that's doing this.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

So yeah, I was watching some of your videos before we uh jumped on the call, and I could see each one was almost more like a nature documentary than just like here's a series of videos of this osprey or whatever it was, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um yeah, I mean it it depends on the videos too. You know, like some of the short form videos are are literally short form. There's no story whatsoever. Right. It's just like some amazing moment. But um I I prefer to do the longer forms where I can kind of tell the story of whatever is happening, you know, um, be it a specific animal or or a problem. Um but like I said, through the process, I've I've learned uh it's a great teaching tool for yourself. Like you think you have it bad. Wait till you see it. Like a yeah, wait till you find like an animal that's missing a leg and is still just going about its day-to-day thing like nothing ever happened. It's very inspiring to see these animals in their daily struggles. Makes you realize that a lot of times your life isn't that bad.

PAS, Benefits, And Proof

SPEAKER_02 17:57

So Yeah, I remember as uh I think during COVID, everyone was feeling very, you know, the lockdowns are going on, people are feeling sorry for them. Maybe they weren't in Florida. I don't know how much you guys were a little more lax, right? A little bit more free, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

But it was still uh fear. A lot of fear-based stuff happening, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

And uh I think everyone was kind of feeling sorry for themselves, and isn't this awful? And then there was some nature documentary, I forget. It went, it went completely viral, everyone was talking about it. It was maybe like Green Planet or something like this, and they had this uh there's this one particular scene, there's like all these um lizards, maybe iguanas or something, being born and these snakes attacking them.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

That's one of the best nature footage things ever. Sorry. So exactly. That is an amazing, amazing clip. And oh my god, there's I told so many people about this clip, but there's so many good things you can learn as a photographer from that clip, too.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

It was it was awesome. But everyone's I think I remember talking to people about like why did this go so crazy at that particular moment. And I think a part of it was everyone was like, oh man, nature is brutal. My God, this is so we've got it so easy by comparison.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

That's right. Absolutely. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I saw an interesting uh change too through the through COVID. It forced people to go outside and more people picked up cameras and wanted to learn how to take photos. So uh wildlife photography grew exponentially as a result of of COVID. Um, and one of the stories in the book is directly related to COVID and everything getting shut down and and realizing that uh watching through nature that regardless of the outcome, everything would be okay. So it's very interesting.

Process For Research-Driven Copy

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yeah. One of the how many, I've got a question for you. How many um how many cameras do you own?

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Oh god. Uh maybe nine or ten different bodies, maybe. Okay. Oh, that's less than I was thinking. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um the lenses a lot more. I don't even know. A lot of lenses.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

That's that's where that's where the majority of the money goes, is it?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

I saw the size of some of those lenses as well. I mean, like they're absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

They're expensive too. Like a really, really good piece of glass will cost you a lot of money because it's really, really good. And it it can't currently be duplicated any other way. Like it's still one of the organic things that exists that like it, you know, is made by a crazy engineering. So I'm sure AI can probably dupe it um now, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

It'd be interesting to see. Would it be alright if I I'm just looking at one of your sales pages at the moment. Would it be all right if I kind of talked you through, you might not want to do this, but uh talk you through like what what would be needed to make that sales page way better and actually convert way better? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

What sales page is it?

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Uh there's uh currently I'm on the wildlife video editing masterclass.

Free Avatar Resources And Templates

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Okay. Yeah, that's I think two years old, I think. About.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

If there's a if there's a different one that you kind of uh rather look at, we can do that. But let me just open it.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

No, no, I I just don't know where you're seeing it. Okay, I got you. Yeah, that's it. Uh learners. Is this where you were people too? Normally? Um yeah, I think so, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

I kind of got here through your um well, by the way, Learn Worlds, we had uh Panos on the other day on the podcast. He's the the CEO, I think, over at Learn Worlds. So I kind of got here through online courses and that took me to Learn Worlds here.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, yeah. The one on the right, the I know you're looking at that one, but the third one on the right there, the camera one, that's the one I just launched last time.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Oh, nice. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

And that one I did a little differently. At least there's a little video, but I'm gonna change the video that's there right now. I would say that's placeholder.

The Next Course: Birds In Flight

From Audience Inspiration To Action

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Okay, cool. So I'll just kind of talk you through a little bit and uh hopefully this can be helpful to everybody listening as well. If you want to see what we're going through, then you can go to YouTube uh data driven marketing.co slash YouTube and and you'll be able to see the video too. But otherwise I'll try and describe what we're kind of going through as we go. So what you've got here as the title is what what a lot of people do is basically the name of the course, I think. What we find works really well with titles, the headline of a sales page is the main benefit that someone's going to get from having that course. If you take this course, you will now be able to whatever, you know, take raising still photography, use the you know, Sony A12, whatever the you know name is there, but something that makes them go, oh that's what I want. Yes, yes. I'm after that thing. Um and then second thing is I love that you got a video over here. What we kind of find works with videos is like only about 10 to 12% of people will watch the video. But for those people it really matters because they'll watch the video rather than reading the sales page. Sure. And so it's kind of the point of this video normally we find is what works best is to have a almost a summary of what's on the sales page. So you're kind of just talking them through this is overall what you're going to learn. This is why this is important. This is the benefits, etc.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yes. That's not what that video is. Okay. I understand it's just placeholder for now. I need to do that this afternoon actually.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Okay. Cool. Yeah. I can send you through like a uh if you're going to do that this afternoon I can send you through like a uh an outline like here's what we'd normally include in there if that's useful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then the next thing is then to have a subheadline which at the moment we've got uh here the Sony A1-2 is an incredible camera loaded with amazing technology. Getting the most out of the camera is easy with this video guide. That's like more in the right direction than the headline because you're kind of telling them what they're going to get from this. So they're actually going to be able to it's I think it could be improved a lot, but it's like it's the right kind of concept. It's basically taking the headline and expanding on it, going into more detail of what it is they'll get from this.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, yeah.

Pricing Pain And Student Frustration

Origin Story And First Viral Steps

Audience Feedback Shaping Videos

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Now the bits that you're really missing on this page is um problem agitation solution section and uh that's correct around benefits. So it's like at the moment the the basic idea is right if somebody gets to your sales page and they don't see that you understand their problem, they're not that likely to believe that you have the solution. Yep, makes sense. But if they see if you do if you explain their problem back to them more clearly than they understand it themselves, they will believe you have the solution even before you tell them what the solution is. So it's like a way of showing to people that you understand their current situation, you understand where they are, you understand why they're frustrated with it, and then you go, but don't worry, we've got the solution. I'm going to show you exactly how to do it. So I don't know I don't know for definite who your audience is but maybe it's like you know as a as a as an intermediate wildlife photographer you've decided to buy this amazing camera but you know you're not getting the most out of it. It's probably super frustrating for you that you could see that expert photographers are taking these incredible photos and you're never able to quite get that. There's loads of tips and tricks and etc on how to be able to do this in this course I'm going to take you through and I'm going to show you exactly how that works. And by the end of this, you are going to know exactly what to do, how to do it and be able to take these amazing photos and then include examples of you know photos you've taken with with that camera and I'm just kind of riffing this off the top of my head but you know you get the basic idea of it absolutely. And then you've got a little bit in terms of like benefits saying get great results faster and tips and tricks. But it's like I'm sure that there's stuff here where it's like you know what you're going to change their life. These are people who they care so much about photography. They love your work they love what you've been up to and they're like man I just want to be able to do this thing. It's just driving me crazy. And it's like if you can bring that to life and make them feel emotionally oh shit I can do this. I'm going to get what I want from this I'm going to be able to take these amazing photos. I'm going to be able to show off on social media, show them to my friends, put them on the walls, whatever it is that they want to do whatever your audience wants, then they're going to get way more excited than seeing just like a list of what's in the course. I agree. Yes. All right I'll so when I go one of the things that I find like super interesting is um I help people like the the technical parts of um how do you do better email promotions, how do you build better funnels, how do you make more money from your course but the part that I think is much more difficult is like how do I convince people that they can do it and should do it and want and get people to want to do it. Because I know there's a lot of people who listen to this podcast and if this is you I see you you're listening to the podcast and you are uh you've listened to tons of episodes you know all the things and you've not done anything differently you're still not built your better funnel you've still not changed your sales page if that's you then it's like I hear that from people quite a lot before they get to the point of actually doing something about it. So I've kind of gone through and I've shown you like okay here's some things you could tweak on your s on your sales page I can send you through like template for it and examples and what have you but I know that what you want to do is go outside, take photography, take people out on tours, etc. That's what you want to spend your time doing. So what's your feeling when you hear that? Is it like oh my God John shut up I just I know I shouldn't I really don't want to or like what do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

I mean I know I I know this is the thing that that I know this works in this way. I think I I would just rather go out and do my thing and just say and and take and take the and take the loss that I have. I think the the problem with this one right now is I literally finished it last night and wanted to just get it online and then I will go back now that I'm a little bit more fresh and not having to work on it all day and start changing some of those things. But I like it's I've always found it difficult to write about those pains and those problems that I will solve for you and put it in like a marketing spiel, so to speak. That's a I would say very weak spot for me.

YouTube As The Growth Engine

A Nudge Toward Funnels And Email

Where To Find Mark And Final CTA

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah and there's the thing with that is the wonderful thing with it is there is a real process for it. And it might be a boring process for you, you know, but there is a process for it, which is basically the first thing to do is to do a customer avatar. And so this basically you do a survey of your audience and you get them to answer a series of questions for you. Things like you know what is your biggest frustration around photography or what are your goals or whatever the things might be that you would need to know and we've got like a whole series of like templates for that. If you're listening to this and you think I want to uh I want to learn about customer avatars or I should learn about customer avatars I'm going to give you a podcast episode um to go check out and also I've got a course on that for free. Let me find that for everyone. So you get your customer avatar you've got all the data together there in the survey then you go through and you do an analysis using AI of the customer avatar. You pull all the data out. And then you also put together something called a customer language document which is the exact words that people used when they described that problem. So you now have two documents one's got a summary of this is the main pain points people have this is the main benefits they want this is the main goals they're trying to achieve and then the exact words in the second document that show you like when they talk about that pain they say these words all the time. So then there's a structure for sales pages and the structure for sales pages is like there's 15 crucial elements of a high performing sales page. I'll send the I'll send you through template for after. And each of those within it has got like a substructure. Okay, the first section the pain agitation solution it's like okay it's these three paragraphs this first paragraph is trying to achieve this thing second one. And it's actually not something where you have to kind of be creative or know how to do it. It's something where you follow the process and by the end of it you go, okay, I need this bit of data from the custom avatar I put that in here and then take this bit from the custom language document I put it in here. Now it doesn't mean that it's easy or that it's like not time consuming and it doesn't stop you from going and doing photography. My point is though it's not something where you have to kind of like have a sense of it a feel for it. It's like just a there's a process and kind of steps to do. So what I'll do after is I'll I'll connect you with Yosep who's like our head of funnel strategy and he'll like um see what you can do to help like what can we offer you to try and help make that as easy as possible like what resources we got what kind of what might be useful for you. So I'll send stuff through afterwards. If you're listening to this and you want to get hold of our customer avatar course then you can get that for free. Just drop me an email and it's just send me an email john at datadrivenmarketing.co and put the subject line as customer avatar and I'll send you through the send you through the link to that. And then it's episode 167 of the podcast it's called If you write copy without doing this you're insane. It's me and Yosip going through and trying trying our our best to get everyone excited about customer avatars. It's like and I know I know this isn't something that everyone's excited about but I'm like it's so important and it makes so much more money. So I'm just like I mean it makes total sense everything you just said so what's what's next for you in terms of uh uh courses what's the are you gonna create more online ones are you running more in-person workshops what's the what's the focus?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Um a little of both but mostly more online I'm I'm gonna build up more of those uh I have a a short master list somewhere and your talk just now made me think of a new one when you were talking about you know what what the problems are I know the number one problem people have with photos at least uh in this niche so the guide to fix that problem would be pretty pretty straightforward nice and what's the biggest problem uh the biggest problem that people have is capturing good photos of birds in flight fast moving little floody things that are gone like that that's that's the biggest struggle for people in still photography and then if you can if you can actually get really good at getting them in video then still photography is simple by those means because still photography you can get them as they fly by really quick and you can get one good picture that's all you need video you got to be able to keep them there the whole time. So they they kind of help each other out. But the uh the big pain people have is bird and flight photography. It's even an acronym of BIF. People will say I suck at BIF like it's like a thing. Um so and I know some secrets that most people don't know. So I could think of it that sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah it'd be a good course. What percentage do you think if your audience are people who would like to actually do photography themselves.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Well man um depends on the platform uh I'd say probably at least 50 or 60% maybe a lot. Okay cool. Yeah absolutely like I think the great thing about it is like and I think this happens I've I've experienced this myself and I can give you a great example is uh Bob Ross. I don't know if you remember or know who Bob Ross is. He was like the guy that painted uh on PBS with the Afro and he would do these amazing paintings in a half an hour and you could he invited you at home to paint along with him and because what he did came like he did it so well it made it look like oh I can do this no problem. All I gotta do is follow Bob at home and so you would immediately want to paint because he inspired you to do that. I think uh some of the content I create is similar. Like I I show these things and I show these amazing events happening and people are like oh yeah I I totally I want to do this. What camera should I buy? What lens should I buy? Where should I start? Because it's a huge thing and nobody really knows exactly where to begin. So I I I think it's a similar thing. And I've seen it with music I've seen it with uh other forms of art where you want to learn if if you really like that art and you see somebody that's really good at it and they kind of lead you on the path to what they do, it makes it more inspirational you want to go do it. So if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah totally I think it's amazing though is terms of the the crossover because that's that's not a a default it's not an automatic that when you are creating content on a topic that gets a lot of views that necessarily those people also want to go learn to do the thing as well which from a business point of view is like well fantastic you've got this massive audience you know you've got this massive potential there. So and then you at the moment you're already getting like that the the people who are willing to spend the most money right I'm gonna fly to Africa with you. I'm gonna go do the safari I'm gonna pay you thousands of dollars to be able to join in there's almost definitely at least as much money in the business in terms of the online stuff because these are there's there's so many people who can't afford that but would love to learn from you. You know that's correct.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah absolutely and I think you know for a lot of people too from my experience is the biggest uh heartache for them is when they say yeah I want to do this and then they go and you tell them well you know a decent camera to start with is like like a decent camera lens you're looking at five grand like minimum. And that's like that's barely going to get you results without tons of frustration. And I think that's the biggest thing you know it's the people they they invest into this this hobby for them and they have this great idea that they want to go do and then they just have frustration after frustration after frustration and then they feel defeated and just give up.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

So um yeah it man that belongs on your sales page that belongs on your sales page dude it's like you know yes yeah you're right you're right that belongs in your emails like if people were getting like how big's your email list oh it's small it's only like 2500 people. Okay. So that's yeah that's part of why you're not making that much money from email is like okay you just haven't got that many people on there right um I'll I'll send you through some stuff about that afterwards as well. But yeah if people were getting emails from you if you had a bigger email list where it would make kind of more sense for it. If people were getting emails through saying I was talking to somebody recently about and you told that story and brought that to life they would feel so like oh my god that'd feel so seen I'm just like yes Mark gets me like what how can you help me please that'd be they'd be salivating with like what have you got what can I buy you know yes exactly um I yeah so I I understand I've been there how did you get started in this what was the the what was the origin story?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Oh man it's amazing actually um I've been taking photos like my whole life as a kid my dad uh took my brother and I kind of off into the wild and gave me a film camera uh told me just to take pictures of whatever I wanted I didn't have any idea what I was doing um and I had a great time at it and it kind of instilled the love for nature that then just kind of blossomed throughout my life. But uh pretty early on I gave up the camera and moved to music and uh learned music instead and then picked the camera back up much later in life maybe I'm 53 now so I think maybe I was around 40 when I picked the camera back up. And uh my late wife at the time had this great idea. She said let's sell everything we own, get like a caravan and just go. And and we did. And that's where photography the whole journey of photography kind of went woo and took off and it's interesting too at that time I was uh writing books uh self-publishing books through Amazon and I had I had one book during this whole process become a huge bestseller which then actually paid all of my bills so I didn't have to have a 95 so I could travel the country and and figure out photography. So that whole transformation of of kind of moving outside of your your central bubble that you've been in your whole life like meeting new people new foods new animals new sites new smells everything is so inspirational. I think I think everybody should do something like this at one point in their life some kind of pilgrimage where you go outside of your comfort zone and learn. That was so like inspiring to me. And then I kind of it kind of gave me a new set of eyes and I started to really understand the foundations of photography. And then we came back to my home state of Florida and all of this wildlife that I grew up around and all these weird moments that I had now made complete sense to me and I knew how to document all of that. So I started so I started to do that and I would come home and I would sit my my son down because he was always really interested in my family. I said you kind of see this crazy thing that happened today like this bird attacked this thing and then an alligator came out of the water and I got it all and I would tell them the story and my son this was in 2017 my son looked at me and goes dad you gotta make this a YouTube video. Yeah you've got to thank your son for that how old was he at the time um let me think it was 2017 uh maybe 19 or 20 maybe yeah yeah yeah maybe 19 or 20 and yeah no I I thank him all the time and and so he's he's a big part of this like when we go do all this stuff he's right there with me almost all the time but at like I had a little bit of a not I won't say argument but I said oh no nobody's gonna really care it's just me and he's like no dad dad I'm telling you things you've been the most wrong about yeah yeah absolutely yeah he said please just do it for me so I did I I I took like that experience that I had just sat down on the couch and put it into a really quick video I knew minimal video editing and it it's like I can look at it now and go oh that was really really rough but I did kind of what I've done my whole life I just kind of put like one toe in the water so to speak and then kind of stood back and watched and that that one video I think overnight had like a thousand views which was enough to make me go oh huh I wonder if I really try what will happen. And then I started to kind of shape it from there. And I to be honest too uh the the fans helped me kind of shape it they were uh there's a lot of times when comments are good like they they might have a legitimate uh problem that and something that you're doing you know you can't take it like emotionally bad like I think in the beginning I started with a GoPro and I was always so excited it was just like like nauseating footage you know and and I I remember somebody saying dude take a breath we know you're excited but slow down that video stuff it's like it'll make it more pleasant to watch and that kind of removed me from it I'm like you know they're right okay so let me and and so some of the stuff people tell you that's very thoughtful comment that's not the usual YouTube comment is it no no not not at all but some of them are you know the some of the critics are actually true and and if you you can you can let them help you um shape some of the stuff that you do um and so I did I you know and then it it's weird as it as it is it just kind of all just happened I I didn't set out to do any of this I didn't set out to to teach or any of that and then because I was making these videos and the videos were getting popular I had uh one woman call me and say please show me how to use my camera please I've struggled for years and I was like okay I guess so we we we met somewhere like in a public park and I took her out and I said okay yeah this is like this is wrong first of all let's set this up this way this way this way and I realized in that moment how much I enjoyed helping this person fix a problem that they had and it from that point on it just said okay I can do this and then there you there it went so it's pretty amazing to be honest. And it it it sounds really cheesy when I say it but YouTube literally changed my life literally there is no joke.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

I mean so yeah it's a it's a great it's a great system it's amazing isn't it it's like you think about all of the all the different social you know TikTok Instagram whatever else right from what we see just nearly all of the people we work with who are successfully selling online courses it's YouTube. YouTube long form is the is where their audience is from absolutely just completely changed all these people's lives like it's probably so many people listening to this podcast right now it's like they've got a YouTube channel they've got a decent sized audience they're selling courses to their audience and it's like without that one platform just this whole ecosystem wouldn't really like if it was had to be done through Instagram it would work like I don't know a tenth as well. Yeah it would be very very small. Yes yeah I know I I agree absolutely yeah yeah it's uh it's a great thing yeah man that's I love I love your story I love what you've been working on here and I I honestly I I really really want to try and get you excited about your your email your email list and your funnels because it's like you've got so much potential it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Yeah I mean and this this honestly couldn't have come at a better time kind of like everything else I mentioned a little bit ago kind of just here it's like the universe is always like here Mark this let's give you a little push here and give you a little help so I I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

I had uh a friend say something similar to me the other day she's uh uh Jody Cook uh good friend of mine and she uh she does some really cool stuff she's like uh um international level power lifter and runs this online business and whatever and um she kind of tells me her her philosophies on things from time to time and she said the other day you just pay attention and the path appears yeah oh that's really good that's really good yes I set up one time I might have told this on the podcast before I'm not sure one time um she was talking at a conference I organized here in London and she was talking about the importance of personal branding and she was taking the Mickey out of me um by doing a search for my name and then showing that like some I don't know some actor in in California was coming up before me for you know who's also called John Ainsworth right but he was coming up she's like you should be branded you should be the top one it comes up and then uh a year later she started up an AI business and I thought I wonder if she's bought jodiecook.ai and she hadn't so I bought it and then and And then I put up a quote from her, something she'd said, I forget what it was. Something something quite nice that she'd said. Um, I know, I remember, I remember. It was um, she said, When I meet someone for the first time, I think you are amazing. Now prove me right. Oh, that's amazing. She's a sweetheart, yeah. And she put so I put that up on the website, and then I just left it and then just didn't mention it. And about three months later, I get a voice note from her. She calls she she messages me and she goes, I know it's you, Ainsworth. I know it is. That's amazing. And I was like, I love that we're such good friends that that she knew that it was me who was fucking. Yeah. So I then did the same that same conference I was organizing it a year again again a year later, whatever. And I told everyone this story, and I said to them, Well, Jody gave this talk last year, and no one really listened to her about their personal branding. And so I told the story about how I bought her domain. And I said, So what I've done is I've bought the.ai domain for every single person here. And you're only allowed to get it back if you if you hadn't, because it would have cost like$20,000 to buy all of those.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

That's hilarious though. Um yeah, so if you go to jodiecook.ai, that's the quote that's there at the moment. I've changed the quotes every so often. I and I don't know if she knows that, but I'm assuming at some point she'll call me up and be like, you know, real realize that I've been doing it. Um, but yeah, that's the uh if you if you pay attention, the path will appear. But yeah, this is um this has been great. I love what you're doing. Um if people want to go check out your your YouTube channel, where should they go? Because it's phenomenal, guys. You really should.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Oh, um you can just Google Mark Smith photography and I I don't know if that's the old way to do things, but yeah, that that will that will show you all of the stuff. Yeah, so perfect. I'm actually pretty proud of that. That took a little bit to get to because my name is so common, but yeah, that'll yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

If you can be branded for Mark Smith, then I could probably manage it for John Ainsworth, right? Mark Smith Photography, let's see what comes up as the uh topic. Oh yeah, the Instagram, your YouTube is like the fourth one down. Yeah, perfect. Okay, Mark Smith Photography. Um just a reminder, everybody, if you want that customer avatar course, drop me an email, um, John at datadrivenmarketing.co, and just uh say customer avatar in the in the subject line. I'll send you through the login. Um the episode number for it was 167. Um and hopefully that's helpful. Um as always, thanks so much for listening. Really, really appreciate you. And Mark, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. It was uh actually very inspirational. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Got my brain cooking now. Thank you. Nice, thank you. Yeah.