Thriving After Trauma
Hosted by Trauma Transformation & Energy Coach, Jaci Rogash, Thriving After Trauma is a podcast about real life stories of transformation, navigating life and being able to show up in the world as your unapologetic self. We’ll talk about the ups, the downs, the ugly truths and the magical moments that we all experience, but often feel we can’t share, so we can bring to life the importance of having meaningful conversations and embracing our own journey in this crazy thing we call life.
Thriving After Trauma
Narcissistic Parents and Boundaries
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Coming in with another Q&A this week, where I was asked a series of questions about dealing with narcissistic parents and family members, while also navigating parenthood at the same time.
These are deep and complex questions, and while I am not an expert, have shared my thoughts the best I can.
I know this episode will be helpful in some way.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Welcome to Thriving After Trauma, a podcast to help you move beyond surviving and support you to truly thrive in every area of your life.
00:00:09
Sometimes it's scary to claim your big desires because of your past.
00:00:12
This podcast will give you the courage to put yourself first and make your dreams a priority.
00:00:17
I'm Jackie, an award-winning trauma transformation coach, breathwork facilitator and international speaker.
00:00:24
I am so excited to bring you these deep, honest and real conversations as a way of supporting you to truly thrive after trauma.
00:00:32
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Thriving After Trauma.
00:00:35
I am so excited to be in here with you today, partly because I just love sharing and talking and being here with you and also because in two days I am going on a holiday to Bali and I am
00:00:49
So excited, so excited I'm getting married but also I'm just ready for some warmer weather because it has been cold and raining and pretty miserable where I am.
00:00:58
Today's episode is on narcissistic parents and it's come about because I've had someone send in some questions around narcissistic parents, setting boundaries and also you know how to navigate
00:01:17
life as a parent with narcissistic parents.
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I do want to preface this with I am not an expert in narcissism.
00:01:29
I know quite a bit about it.
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I've supported a lot of clients who have had either narcissistic exes, narcissistic parents, narcissistic family members, and I've supported them to sort of, I guess, unhook themselves from
00:01:46
the impacts of that and the conditioning and that kind of thing.
00:01:50
And but as I said, not an expert, but because I've been asked these questions, I feel like it's really important to share my thoughts and experience.
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Firstly with narcissism, the biggest thing is that they will make, a narcissist will always make it about themselves.
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You know, they won't often ask about you and there can be this
00:02:15
we can be left with this questioning, this wondering, this self-doubt, that kind of thing.
00:02:20
And depending on their personality type can also depend on how they react to certain situations if they don't get what they want.
00:02:33
But let's dive in.
00:02:35
Let's dive into the questions.
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And then if there's anything else I feel I haven't covered after the questions, then I'll do that.
00:02:42
So the first question was,
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Is it worth keeping relationships with narcissistic family members even if it's toxic?
00:02:51
To be honest, I, and this might sound brutal, I don't believe we owe anyone or are expected to or should be expected to maintain a relationship with anyone when it's toxic.
00:03:11
If you have someone in your life that is toxic, that is going to impact you.
00:03:18
The challenge or the difficulty here is that when they're family.
00:03:24
some people can cut ties with family quite easy and some people don't.
00:03:30
Again, this depends on how you were brought up.
00:03:33
your beliefs, your values, the conditioning, that kind of thing.
00:03:37
I sometimes feel like people get judged quickly if they say that they don't talk to their mum or their dad or their brother or their sister anymore.
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People are like, oh, how could you do that?
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And it takes courage.
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It takes so much more courage to cut off a family member than it does a friend.
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Not to say it doesn't take courage to cut off a friend, but when they're your family, it is
00:04:02
it's harder because they're more deeply ingrained into your life.
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But is it worth keeping the relationship?
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that's, I can't say yes or no because everybody's situation is different.
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I know that's very, probably a very annoying answer.
00:04:18
But if someone is toxic, it's like it's toxic.
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Like I don't encourage anyone to keep toxicity in their life.
00:04:30
In saying that because they are family, you could possibly look at putting in really firm boundaries, knowing that it's going to take quite some time for those to stick and stand firm.
00:04:48
You could put in really solid boundaries as a way of keeping them in your life to some degree.
00:04:55
Again, it depends on the reasoning.
00:04:57
And I think that's probably the answer to the question.
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Like, what's the reason that you want to keep them in your life if the relationship is toxic?
00:05:08
And the answer to that is probably going to give you the answer of whether it's worth it or not.
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Because if your answer is because they're my brother, I get it.
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And also, you know, it's
00:05:25
Yeah, it's a challenging one but is it worth it?
00:05:31
depends how much you can tolerate.
00:05:32
It depends how well you can look after and protect yourself from that energy and it depends on the reasoning why.
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I'm fortunate that I don't have any narcissistic family members so I don't know this.
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I have again supported other people who
00:05:54
do.
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And it's really challenging.
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It's this tug of war of doing what they believe is right with maintaining that relationship and doing what is right for them internally.
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And that can be really, really hard.
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The next question, is there a polite way to distance yourself from others and have minimal contact even though they don't respect boundaries?
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Is it possible?
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with the caveat of if I didn't have children, it wouldn't even be a question, but having kids, they're conscious of how they'll see this situation in years to come.
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And kids always add a layer of complexity to any situation.
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Is there a polite way to distance yourself and have minimal contact?
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Yes, because having minimal contact doesn't have to be rude, it doesn't have to be blunt, it doesn't have to be aggressive.
00:06:53
doesn't have to be overt, it doesn't have to be anything.
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The challenge is with all boundaries, whether you're dealing with a narcissist or someone who has just not appreciated your boundaries or you haven't had any boundaries, is always going to be them having to adjust to a different relationship.
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Because boundaries is when you
00:07:22
implement something, right?
00:07:23
Your boundaries are for you to implement.
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And often I think people think that a boundary is someone that someone else has to tolerate or someone else has to do.
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Let me put that into an example.
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If you say to someone, I just don't want to talk about this topic anymore.
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Like I don't want to talk to you about that.
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I want to, you know, remain your friend, but I just don't want to talk about that.
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Sure.
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The boundary then is for you, if it gets brought up, for you to be like, I don't want to talk, like I've said, we're not talking about this, and to shut down that conversation.
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It's not up to the other person to be like, oh no, I know you don't want to talk about that, so I won't.
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As much as it would be nice, and I think when we have respect for people, we understand those boundaries and we respect boundaries.
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But if someone has never had to, or never respected boundaries or never had any boundaries with someone,
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it can be really challenging.
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If you're dealing with someone who is narcissistic, they're going to just expect you to do what they want.
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They're going to expect you to talk to them when they want.
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They're going to expect you to see them when they want.
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They're going to expect to get what they want.
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And you don't have to be, as I said, you don't have to be rude.
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Like setting boundaries isn't rude.
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It's not like I'm not doing the, like it's just not rude.
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It's not a mean thing to do either.
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And sometimes I know, especially when we've experienced trauma, setting a boundary can feel like you're being mean because you're not supporting someone or you're not being there for them or you're not people pleasing anymore.
00:09:03
And that can be really uncomfortable.
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Whereas it's not, right?
00:09:08
Setting a boundary is protecting you.
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It's protecting your nervous system, your mental health, your wellbeing, your emotions, all of that.
00:09:15
And so it can simply be a conversation or a boundary might be not answering the phone all the time.
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and it's funny.
00:09:27
I actually, it's interesting seeing people's relationship with like phone calls versus text messages and expectations around replies and that kind of thing.
00:09:40
Whereas if you're ringing someone and they're not answering, that's their boundary.
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The boundary is I don't want to talk to you right now, you know, and that's that.
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It's not up to you to, and you have no right to then demand why they're not talking to you, right?
00:09:55
That's a boundary.
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Yes, it's nice if someone says, you know, whatever, like tells you that they're not going to at a certain time or whatever, but you don't have to.
00:10:10
And it is possible, but it's going to be really challenging because again, it's you having to stand firm and grounded and solid in your boundary with someone who likely isn't going to be happy about that.
00:10:28
Sometimes we cave because it's easier.
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It's like, oh, okay, if I just talk to them, they'll stop ringing me.
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Or if I just do this, then they'll do that.
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But
00:10:37
Again, it's, I think it's one of those, and I think about this with parenting as well.
00:10:42
There's the short term pain, short term pain for long term gain over, being void of any difficulties and any challenges.
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you want someone to respond or react to you instantly.
00:11:02
We can go about things quite reactively and
00:11:07
aggressively sometimes.
00:11:10
And that might fix the problem there and then, but long term it's not going to.
00:11:14
So again, even with the boundaries, I would always, and I do always recommend starting small.
00:11:19
So if you are going to set boundaries, it's not a matter of being like, these are all my boundaries and they're in place right now.
00:11:29
It's a matter of implementing one and sticking with that, making it normal.
00:11:36
and then implementing another.
00:11:38
Or you can do it from the reverse, right?
00:11:40
So if you have cut someone off and you want to bring them back into your life to a degree, you can start by setting little boundaries around what that relationship might look like.
00:11:52
So it might be contact once a week over the phone or once a month, whatever it is.
00:11:59
So either way, whichever way you're going, if you're starting from scratch
00:12:03
and you have all of the contact and you've never put boundaries in place, or on the other end of that, you have no contact and you want some contact, little steps, right?
00:12:14
Little steps, little boundaries, just to one, help you and support your nervous system and two, you know, build that confidence in yourself and also so the other person understands what your boundary is and that it's clear.
00:12:31
Because sometimes when we set boundaries, if we go all in, these are all of my boundaries and I'm implementing them all at once, it's like, okay.
00:12:37
But then if you bend on any of those, it can get quite confusing.
00:12:42
So clarity as well.
00:12:45
The next question, how would you explain and communicate the situation in general to your kids without affecting your own relationship with your kids later on if you were to cut off your family?
00:12:56
I'm assuming that this is if you were to cut ties with narcissistic family members.
00:13:03
This is really, also not a parenting expert.
00:13:08
I think this is, I have the belief that we shouldn't overcomplicate things for children, right?
00:13:22
I don't believe in, expecting children to understand the complexities of being an adult.
00:13:30
I don't expect children to bear the load of challenges that we have as adults and parents.
00:13:37
And I also think, they have an innocence about them that, will be, it sounds horrible, will be taken away at some stage as they discover the world and see what, what's what.
00:13:54
But that's their journey.
00:13:57
And I actually saw this reel and I can't, I wish I saved it.
00:14:01
was a non-binary person who was born a female, identifies non-binary, dresses quite masculine and a little girl went up to them and said, are you a girl?
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And the reel is of this person explaining this interaction.
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And she said to the little girl, she goes, yes, I'm a girl.
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And the little girl, she was only, four or five or six or something.
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And then she was talking about mums and dads and boys and girls and that kind of thing.
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And the person that shared this.
00:14:37
real was like, this is what, this is how we, let kids be kids.
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It's not up to me to sit there and explain all of these complexities that, to a five-year-old makes absolutely no sense.
00:14:51
To A five-year-old, there's boys and there's girls.
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And I was like, yeah, I, you know, I understand that as someone who identifies as a female and was born a female.
00:15:03
It's, still, I know that this is still a work in progress for me as well.
00:15:08
But the fact, like hearing someone else talk about that, yeah, I thought it was really special.
00:15:15
I thought it was really special.
00:15:16
And I think we need more conversations like that.
00:15:19
In terms of boundaries and not talking to someone, again, not an expert, but my advice is just to keep it simple.
00:15:26
You know, whether you say, and it also depends on the background.
00:15:33
if they did something that was horrible to you, could say, they weren't very nice and I'm just having some time not talking to them or, sometimes we get along with some people and we don't and at the moment we don't or, I'm just focusing on you right now or it makes me, see, I don't, you don't want to add any layer of emotional
00:16:02
guilt or emotional load to kids, but also you're not going to lie to them either.
00:16:09
So it's a really tricky question.
00:16:12
How do you explain it to kids?
00:16:14
I think if, yeah, I'm trying to, if I was to not speak to my parents and my kids ask me about that,
00:16:29
Again, a big part of this would be why, but I would probably just say that, we're just having some time where we're not talking because we weren't happy with each other or we weren't making each other happy or, when we did talk, we got a bit sad or angry or something like that.
00:16:49
So, introducing the emotions or the reason that happened, but not no detail.
00:16:56
They don't need that detail.
00:16:57
And I've seen it with little kids whose parents have separated where the parents play each other off against each other.
00:17:03
And these kids just get told all of this stuff and carry all of this stuff before they should.
00:17:11
Right.
00:17:12
And then it's, it can be really hard because it's like, oh, mum said this or dad said this.
00:17:17
And yeah, it's just let kids be kids.
00:17:22
The next question.
00:17:24
Is it reasonable to protect your kids by not having them around narcissists or is it being too controlling?
00:17:29
I don't think that's controlling at all.
00:17:31
I think, and it depends on the age of your kids, right?
00:17:36
As kids get older, they will make their own decisions and I do believe that needs to be up to them.
00:17:42
We all make bad decisions and your kids, my kids will make bad decisions.
00:17:46
I know that.
00:17:47
That's part of growing up.
00:17:49
But when they, if you, if we're talking about little kids,
00:17:53
Our responsibility as parents is to protect them, make sure they're safe, make sure they're fed, make sure they're warm, make sure they're emotionally safe, make sure they're physically safe as much as we can.
00:18:09
And I'm comfortable using the word safe for kids.
00:18:13
I don't, and you'll notice that I don't ever say like I provide a safe space because it's, I can't possibly promise that because safety to everybody is different.
00:18:22
But for our children, we can only do, like that is our job, to keep them safe, as safe as we can.
00:18:31
and it's why you see a lot of people talking now about sleepovers and whether they let their kids go on sleepovers or not.
00:18:38
But is it reasonable to protect your kids by not having your own narcissist?
00:18:40
Absolutely, 100%.
00:18:45
Like, yes, for sure.
00:18:48
Again, if you choose to have
00:18:51
a relationship with them, then you would also, like you would have a limited relationship with them and your kids would have that same limited relationship.
00:18:59
This is probably where boundaries are most important with what the other person, the narcissist, isn't allowed to talk to your children about, what they're allowed to say and not say and that kind of thing and being really, really firm on calling them out.
00:19:19
if they breach that boundary being like, no, that's not okay.
00:19:25
Again, I've had, yeah, there's a couple of situations that I've experienced, not me personally, but people that I know and clients that I've had where there has been conflict between,
00:19:43
their parents and that's brought to their children.
00:19:46
So we're talking like grandparents with kids and like that manipulation and you could even like even parents and the boundary needs to be like, no, you don't say that to my children.
00:19:56
And if they do, you leave.
00:19:58
Or it might be, if you talk about that or if you say that to my kids, then we're not, we're leaving, right?
00:20:03
And making sure that you do it.
00:20:07
And it's almost like sometimes I see the relationship with narcissists as
00:20:13
similar to that with kids.
00:20:15
I dragged Hunter away from his football the other week.
00:20:19
I took him home halfway through because he was just being naughty.
00:20:25
He was just running around and running a mark and not listening.
00:20:27
And I'd said to him before we go, if you do this, we're not staying till the end.
00:20:31
We're not having hot dogs.
00:20:33
We're leaving.
00:20:34
So if you don't listen, I'm happy to help you.
00:20:35
I'm going to stay there and help you and do whatever you need me to do so you can participate.
00:20:41
But
00:20:42
If you don't, then we're going to go.
00:20:45
And there's a part of it where I know in his mind, if he's uncomfortable or overwhelmed, he goes a little bit silly, like he's four, right?
00:20:53
Of course he does.
00:20:54
And also, I'm not going to yell at him or scream at him in the middle of something.
00:20:59
And he also needs to know that there are consequences if he misbehaves, you know?
00:21:06
And so we did.
00:21:06
And he cried the whole way home and then we got home and, you know, he settled down, he was okay.
00:21:11
I think the same with narcissists.
00:21:12
If it's like, if you say this, we're gonna leave.
00:21:15
You leave, you're probably gonna cop a **** ton of abuse because that's what they do.
00:21:18
You don't reply to that.
00:21:20
You don't play any part in that.
00:21:21
You just let them do whatever they need to do.
00:21:26
That's on them.
00:21:27
It's not on you.
00:21:28
And this is where when you're putting boundaries or having a relationship with a narcissist, you need to be really firm on how to protect yourself and your energy.
00:21:38
So is it reasonable to protect your kids from narcissists by not being around?
00:21:41
Absolutely it's reasonable.
00:21:43
And I don't think it's controlling.
00:21:45
As I said, as they get older, if they choose to have a relationship with them, that's something that you, like that's a path that you cross then.
00:21:52
And again, maybe it starts with little boundaries while you're there, that kind of thing.
00:21:57
The older they get, the less control we have over them.
00:22:02
And the final question,
00:22:03
What support or recommendations do you have for adults that have grown up in a narcissistic family?
00:22:08
What would be the main concerns for them to look out for bringing up their own kids?
00:22:19
This one's probably harder for me to answer because I haven't experienced it myself and I don't know enough about it, if that makes sense.
00:22:37
For adults who have grown up in a narcissistic family, spend time really figuring out who you are away from how you were treated and away from what you were led to believe.
00:22:49
Like the fact that you know that your parents are narcissistic is a huge step.
00:22:57
It also comes with trauma
00:23:00
The impact of being raised by someone like that and take it slow.
00:23:06
Take it really slow with yourself.
00:23:10
I mean, so do whatever you need to do to protect your energy and your heart and navigate it.
00:23:19
For some people, it is really creating distance or not having any contact while they kind of figure it out.
00:23:26
because there is this whole rewiring and reconditioning that has to happen.
00:23:32
if you've had a narcissistic parent, it's likely that you've always done everything that they want and gone out of your way to make sure that they're happy because you don't want the ramifications of if you're not.
00:23:43
Whereas when you see it, it's like, okay, so I'm not going to do this, but what does that then look like?
00:23:50
So take time.
00:23:52
Take time, get to know yourself, spend time with yourself.
00:23:56
and connect with what's really important to you.
00:24:00
And the main concern with looking out for kids, I think it's always an interesting one.
00:24:05
I think for parents that know they have narcissistic parents, they're always so mindful of not impacting their children the way that they've been impacted.
00:24:16
And letting, and this is a challenge of mine, you know, not controlling or not
00:24:25
when they don't respond the way that you want them to, like not controlling them, like letting them be their own person to a degree.
00:24:34
But I think emotional safety and giving them space for their emotions, for their feelings, for their thoughts is really, really important.
00:24:46
Because often when we're around narcissists, we don't get that.
00:24:49
Again, it's all about them.
00:24:51
So
00:24:53
just letting your kids be them and feel everything and holding space for them.
00:25:01
I think again, we're often, whether we're dealing with children or adults, we want to fix things.
00:25:06
We want to make problems go away and some problems can't.
00:25:11
And kids need to figure that out.
00:25:14
But also kids need to understand their emotions.
00:25:17
They need to go through their emotions in order to learn how to regulate their emotions.
00:25:22
And there are stages in childhood that are really ******* hard.
00:25:26
A lot, a lot.
00:25:28
Like not only are you holding yourself, you're also holding children and also holding all of the complexities that come with life.
00:25:35
But the main concern is letting them, or the main focus I should say, is like letting them be themselves, not
00:25:48
putting themselves down because that you can sometimes see that where they be like, I'm just stupid or I'm not good enough or I'm not smart enough or I'm not this or I'm not that.
00:25:56
And it's like, no, So really ingraining positive self-talk, but letting them be themselves.
00:26:05
You know, if you notice people pleasing, you know, tell them, you know, tell them they don't have to do that.
00:26:12
If you notice the good, like all of the conditioning that you're aware of, that you've experienced,
00:26:18
help them with that.
00:26:20
again, I see certain things with Hunter and it's like, okay, like I need to just hold space and sometimes I'm really good at that and sometimes it can be a struggle.
00:26:34
Yeah, so they're the questions.
00:26:36
It's a really great conversation if I'm honest.
00:26:41
The biggest thing to note is
00:26:44
Boundaries, putting boundaries in place with anyone is uncomfortable.
00:26:48
With anyone is uncomfortable.
00:26:51
Putting boundaries in place with a narcissist is even more uncomfortable.
00:26:56
Because most people, I'd like to think that most people respect and understand boundaries and, you know, like, okay, cool.
00:27:05
I respect that.
00:27:05
I appreciate it.
00:27:07
Let's move forward.
00:27:09
it's harder with narcissists and there's going to be, and often there's almost a standoff where you start to put boundaries in place and then they're like, well, I'm not going to talk to you.
00:27:19
And so there's this really awkward discomfort of knowing that you're not talking to each other.
00:27:26
You know why you're doing it, but then when they're doing it in retaliation, it can, like that feels really stretchy because it's like, well, I don't like, I don't want this awkwardness.
00:27:38
But also knowing that awkwardness is a part of setting boundaries, especially with a narcissist.
00:27:44
Like it is going to be awkward, it's going to be uncomfortable.
00:27:48
And that's just a period of the period that you need to move through.
00:27:53
It's the same as any time we grow or evolve or change.
00:27:56
There's always going to be a period of like awkwardness and discomfort and
00:28:01
so just get ready for the awkwardness, embrace the awkwardness and find some things and strategies to kind of take your mind off it.
00:28:09
But I hope this episode has been supportive in some way for you, knowing that it's a really complex, like it's really, really complex.
00:28:23
But I have shared my thoughts, my feelings, my experience.
00:28:28
And as I said, I just hope this has been really supportive for you.
00:28:32
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Thriving After Trauma.
00:28:36
If you love this episode, I would love for you to like it, subscribe to it, share it, tag me, get the word around.
00:28:44
I know this topic is one that many people struggle with.
00:28:49
And if I can support anyone with it, I would really, really love to, but I can only do that when people know that I exist.
00:28:56
So please share, please subscribe, please tag me, get the word around because I'm here to support you.
00:29:04
I'm here to support everybody collectively to thrive after trauma.