The FODcast Season 5 | Episode 7 with Mikko Mantila

Welcome to Episode 7 of The FOD: The Future Of All Things Digital - the podcast designed to bring you the latest hot topics and trending discussions across the wider world of eCommerce.

In this penultimate episode of Season 5, we were delighted to welcome seasoned
digital leader, Mikko Mantila , Co-Founder and CEO of IONA - an award-winning agency who specialises in next-generation eCommerce.

Founded in 2019,  IONA has gone on to experience rapid growth, with studios now in Helsinki, London, and Davao City in The Philippines. And, with a client base that continues to expand across the Nordics and the UK, Mikko has most recently experienced success with notable involvement in the MACH Alliance's C-suite advisory board. 

The episode delves into IONA's background, pioneering the adoption of headless technology, as well as a focus on the evolution of composable strategies over their first 5 years in business.
 
In our chat, Mikko reflects on the 'hype' surrounding the concept and the necessity for businesses to consider its implications carefully, emphasising the importance of organisational readiness, cultural alignment, and clear communication of expected benefits and ROI. 

The conversation deep dives into the complexities and realities of embracing composability in today's rapidly evolving business landscape, offering valuable insights and guidance for businesses navigating this transformative journey. 

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Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.

Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/

Transcript

James 0:01

Welcome to the FOD, where we bring you insights into the future of digital commerce for free. Season five is all about the move to composable architecture, and while it's not a buzzword anymore, there are still a number of unanswered questions, which is why I'm speaking to those who have the answers. In return, if you enjoy our content, we ask if you could like and share to spread the message far and wide. Hello, and welcome back to episode seven of the FOD. I'd like to welcome today's guest, Miko Mantila, co-founder and CEO of Iona. Hi. Iona. Hi Miko. Iona has been leading the way in the move to composable architecture in Finland since 2018, and they've subsequently expanded to other areas within the Nordics and the UK. Recently, Miko has been appointed a member of the C-Suite Advisory Board for the MAC Alliance. Welcome, Miko. First and foremost, um, let's talk about your recent appointment. Um, what does this mean?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Thanks, James, uh, for the invite. Uh, great to be here. Yeah, um, well, for us, of course, it's super exciting to be part of the Mac Alliance. It's it's something that um, you know, since the first time we heard about Mac Alliance, uh, it became clear that we one day we want to be part of that, uh, part of that movement and that ecosystem. And luckily in December 2023, we made that happen. So we're um super grateful and excited to be part of the alliance. And and for us, it presents the possibility to uh interact and network with like-minded individuals on a global scale, and already now we're seeing um a lot of the fruits uh from those conversations. So it's been really interesting. Um, it is an opportunity for us to learn, also challenge ourselves, challenge our thinking, uh, and also expand uh the horizons of of what these uh technologies have to offer um and bring them into the finish market as well. Um so so yeah, it is uh it is a great opportunity for us.

The background of IONA

James 1:59

Nice, and it's certainly something that's gone from strength to strength. Their members are now north of 100 um and seems to be growing every quarter. Uh, you touched upon the finished market there, um Miko. So I guess let's let's delve into a little bit more about Iona and why you set the business up because for a lot of our listeners, maybe they may not be too familiar with you guys right now. So uh yeah, do you want to tell us a bit more?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Sure. So um our journey began in 2018-2019, around that time. Um, we've dabbled a bit uh uh prior to that. So so um me and my uh co-founder John, we we had a uh kind of a tech team uh based out of Southeast Asia earlier, and that kind of set the base basis for for this operation. And around that time in 2018, we got to work with uh one of the largest um uh fast casual uh food franchises in the in the Nordic region. Not gonna mention the name, but they sell hundreds hundreds of millions of euros worth of uh pizza uh on a yearly basis, actually online. And uh we got to work on their transformation. We went headless, uh, which was relatively well. I don't know if it was new back in the day, but um, it was an interesting architecture. And it's it was something that we we've been researching uh since maybe 2015 and 16 in our previous professions as well. But that was you know the kind of the um how would I say the catalyst for founding Iona. And and at the same time, a lot of uh other customers were approaching us uh with similar kinds of needs. So so we got to work and and uh and now we're about 50 people um in three locations. So we have still have that Southeast Asian uh thing going on. So we have an office in in the Philippines and we have the HQ here in Helsinki, Finland. And about 18 months ago we opened up shop in London as well, and uh the UK has been growing phenomenal in a phenomenal uh pace. Um so so yeah, uh that's where we're now.

James 4:12

Nice. It's been uh a great success story, then by the sounds of it. So 2018, so that's coming up to what six years now?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah, I think this is our sixth year now that's just started. Yes.

How have you seen the growth of Composable?

James 4:25

Perfect. So uh yeah, you've probably seen an awful lot evolve when it comes to the move to composable architecture, uh, which I guess leads nicely into the the first uh conversational point, which is the growth of composable and and how it's evolved from um let's say 2018 when you you you picked up that first piece of work to where it is now.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, it's it's been quite interesting. Um well, of course, earlier on nobody was talking about composable because the word itself uh didn't exist. But now I feel that it's spread around uh on it's it's been sprinkled on top of a lot of a lot of different things. Um yeah, um and and you know, even the term composable washing has been been mentioned. But um, yeah, it has become a hype. Uh there's no no doubt about it. Um but what I always try to try to kind of keep in mind is to have a very crystal clear, almost like a strategic view onto this trend. And it's something that I try to advocate also that um, you know, companies and decision makers would would try to look beyond the hype and try to understand what does it really mean. Um, you know, in its core, it's quite a simple and pragmatic idea. So uh it's the idea of favoring these fit-for-purpose and best-of-breed solutions and and gluing them together, uh, not with super glue, uh loosely coupling them together. But however, it it is an IT strategy uh point of view. It has to be looked at from that perspective, I think. And and um yeah, if we think about the growth of composable and the composable market, so um I think the market is becoming more and more mature, which is which is a great thing. Um but becoming mature also means that you cannot only have these positive stories, uh, there are also like these negative experiences and even horror stories emerging in the market. And and I think we all need to learn from these and also understand what possibly went wrong and and um learn from those. So yeah, I think that's where we are now.

What have we learnt since the early introduction of Composable?

James 6:57

Um and it's a fair comment you you raised there about how how there's not just positive stories in the market. Um there there is a process that everyone has had to go through. And I think whenever you are uh an early adopter of something new, you're gonna face challenges that people haven't had to deal with before. And it's about how you overcome them and how you learn from them. So um we're now uh let's let's say we're a few years through the um the adoption of composable commerce, it's now more than just uh uh a phrase, and people do understand it. In fact, I actually read a report recently from Elastic Path that said something like 97% of uh retail leaders um within businesses of 50, 100 million to 3.5 billion dollars uh were very familiar with um the term composable commerce and what it meant. Um so what what have we learned over that period of time?

SPEAKER_01 7:59

I think what we have learned is uh well for maybe this is not uh you know a great opinion to have, but it's also a fact that it's not necessarily for everybody.

James 8:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Um I do believe that uh the world is moving towards composability anyway, so it's gonna come, it's kind of behind the curve, behind the corner for everybody anyway. Um but organizations really need to ask themselves are they ready for it now? Uh and most importantly, can they orchestrate it now? Can they orchestrate it in let's say in the foreseeable future? Um they also need to really, really understand what are the expected benefits of it, and what could be the potential drawbacks? Uh, where is the value? So, what are the value drivers uh that we're trying to get out of this transformation? Because it's in its heart, it is a transformation anyway, so it's going to affect people's roles potentially, it's gonna affect people's daily lives, their processes, everything like that. So, so what is our organizational and technological readiness to adopt these new technologies? Um, what is our company culture? That's been an interesting finding, also, because it might be that uh you know the organization culture is inherently risk averse. So then it starts from almost like educating well your peers, but also educating the procurement department, for example. And you cannot educate them on you have to educate these people on facts and the business drivers, the value drivers, the business benefits, the expected ROI that we're we're trying to get out of this uh transformation. Um so those have to be crystal clear. But like I said, it's it's most likely it's not yet for everybody. It's gonna become a hygiene factor, but uh sooner or later. But what the first movers are trying to get is that first mover advantage, like the early adopters. So that's what they are trying to do. So you have to evaluate if that's something you're ready to do, um, in your market, in your vertical um, you know.

James 10:47

Okay, very uh very honest opinion there. Um I I like it, it's good. And and I mean that's that is ultimately the reason for this this podcast is to share the uh the thoughts and feelings of people like yourself who are having these conversations week in, week out with different customers because you're you're right in what you say, it probably isn't for everybody. And what's the most important uh factor of any business is to understand your business and where you want your business to go, and then you you decide on what that looks like from a technology perspective. You don't just say, Well, I want to do composable because our competitors aren't composable or it's cool or whatever. Yeah, um, and then you get 18 months into a piece of work and then go, ah crap, I didn't quite expect all of this, and this is expensive, and we don't have that resource, and and all that kind of stuff. So that that I really appreciate the honesty. Um like it sounds like you've you've had many of those conversations over the last five years.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, yeah. Um of course it's a a bit unfair because um from the from the very beginning we've uh concentrated on the most modern API-based technologies, and we've been doing headless and everything like that. So so we've been able to uh, like in Finnish, we say, pick the racings from the bun. Um, you know, uh and we have had the privilege of working with quite forward-looking and ambitious companies and brands, also, so who want to push the boundaries. And to be fair, also companies who have no other alternative than to go go composable. So the the only possible alternative would be to build everything custom, and that's not something that they want to do, or they've tried that and and found out that it's horribly expensive, so they much rather go go composable and and start adopting these um SARS solutions to drive their um drive their business. So so yeah. Um but also we've had to have have those quite um honest conversations that hey, maybe this isn't necessarily for for you. Um so you might be much better off with some kind of other architectural style.

Is there a typical type of business that you would say should not consider a move to Composable?

James 13:12

Okay, okay. And then I I think what would be really interesting to get your opinion on right now, then, is um is there a specific type of business? Maybe it's the size or the maturity from a technology point of view that you would say in the majority of circumstances probably shouldn't consider a move to composable. Should it should not consider it? Should not, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Well, okay, maybe again, not a popular opinion.

James 13:45

Um but there's a female.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

So I would say that if if your business is uh let's say that you only sell in in a you know limited set of markets, so you you're not dealing with a lot of complexity arising from you know a lot of you know locales or markets or currencies or something like that. So if you're let's say you're a brand and your territory is is Northern America, so you're dealing basically with maybe you know US dollar and maybe the Canadian uh dollar as well. Um but mostly your business comes from the US. Um and the products that you're selling is they they are very easy to um warehouse, they're easy to ship, they're easy to, you know, it there's nothing special in that sense. There's a cart, there's a checkout, there, you know, orders come in and you ship it. So most likely you're not gonna have, you know, you might be quite happy, and you're quite a, you know, you're able to grow your business using a more monolithic business in a box solution until you hit a certain threshold in terms of the volume of the business, where you start seeing that, you know, these license costs don't make a lot of sense, or you have start to have start to experience some cracks in the facade in terms of performance or something like that. You're just you know, the site starts to slow down, or the importance of performance becomes greater. You're running campaigns or Black Friday or something like that, so you have a ton of non-functional requirements against your site. So that's the point when you start thinking, well, maybe this platform could be a little bit more resilient if we started to break it off a little bit. Um, I would say if if you know that's your use case that you're selling you know you know, bars of soap um and on a single currency, uh a couple of languages, you know, um no need for composable. Okay. So it's only when when there's you know, you know, you need some sort of a trigger. Um that being said, if I was to start a company now uh from scratch, I would probably evaluate the composable approach anyway, um, just from the perspective perspective of future-proofing things. So I think that's still a valid, um valid use case from that perspective. But um yeah, um I think there's I can imagine a couple of use cases where you know the brand or the merchant might not require this kind of an architecture style. But like I said, it's coming anyway for everybody, uh, sooner or later.

James 16:50

So um yeah, but I mean we're already seeing some of the uh the established players like SAP, for example, try and break down their monolith. And I think if you spoke to somebody at SAP, they would probably argue that they are composable. If you spoke to anyone in the Mac a launch, you'd probably argue that they're they they they're not really because they're trying to decompose a monolith, which means it's getting more complicated as they as they try and separate it. So it's not really not necessarily the you're not doing it from a business first perspective, it's a technology backwards perspective, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah, correct. And well, uh then we start to step into the whole territory of what is composable and and um you know if it's just a marketing term that gets thrown out of you know as it is now, you know, Shopify saying that we have these components and it's component-based and everything. Um so but I think there's some truth to it. They have understood that this movement or this let's let's call it architecture style or IT strategy, whatever we want to call it, um is it makes sense, right? Otherwise, they wouldn't be talking about it, otherwise they would be completely against it, right? Um, so the reason why everybody wants to jump on this bandwagon is the fact that it makes sense. It it is the pragmatic approach. So that's why I believe uh these vendors don't have any other alternative than to actually start embracing composability and start splitting and decomposing their platforms, opening up their APIs, and ensuring that the companies who want to adopt composable approaches can do so with any of these platforms.

How much impact has the MACH Alliance had in this space?

James 18:46

Okay. I really like uh kind of how you started that was saying what what how do we define composable? Is it the marketing strategy, which clearly is for many companies, right? It's this it is the hot topic right now, or is it the the architecture style and the the IT strategy? Because uh however you decide to be talking about it is is how you can then obviously reference it moving forward and adapt to it. So okay, like it. Look, um I mean it's fair to say we've seen a huge change over that five years, and and um I feel like the Mac Alliance has probably played quite a large part in the um the adoption of that as well. Um, in in your opinion, how how much impact do you think the Mac Alliance has had in this space?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, I think it brings transparency, it brings that level of legitimacy. Uh so there is that certification process that these vendors and SIs like us have to go through. Uh, which from experience I can say it's not like a walk in the park. And also what I've heard from various SI uh various um software vendors, also, it's it's actually quite daunting on them. Um, and many have tried and and failed multiple times before getting getting accepted into the alliance.

unknown 20:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

So it really is a real thing, it's not um it's not just a show or a charade, it is a real, real thing.

James 20:24

And there are the stories that many people don't hear about as well, right? You see, we've got three, four, five new members, but you don't you don't see we've rejected five or six other members, or this company's tried three or four times already.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Exactly. So I think that level of legitimacy is required in order for this to um pass through the um let's say the uh requirements or the preconceptions of of these more risk-averse types of decision makers. Um and I think that's a great thing, and for sure it has helped in the adoption of of mock and the adoption of composable. And it's it's great that we have these forums where people can actually talk about these things and not share experiences. That's I think the at least from from my selfish perspective, it's the most important thing, not just the kind of the pure salesy aspects of it. Um you know, I take it as a learning experience, uh, personally, but um, yeah, there are other aspects of it as well.

James 21:37

Nice. Well, look, we started this conversation by talking about the the learning curve as you go through these changes, and that that has um tremendous impact for for new um people like yourself and new companies that are going on the journey to be able to have somewhere where they can speak to others that have also done it is of tremendous benefit, like you mentioned. Every company is different. Every composable architecture is going to be different and it's going to be unique to a business. So understanding the challenges that businesses have faced as they've gone on that journey is a huge benefit, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yeah. Yeah. And now we have this nonprofit body that can organize these very because these are very confidential conversations. And I can understand that a lot of organizations don't want people like me, you know, SI representatives or uh software vendors coming in there with their commercial messaging and everything like that. So also organizing those um roundtables among customers uh and also uh among us SIs and the vendors themselves. So I think that's that's what the alliance is um all about, and and that's where they're doing the the the great work. Um so I'm actually um looking forward a lot uh to the Mac 3 event in um in New York. Uh it's going to be the first time I get to experience it myself, so I have high hopes and and um going to be there well caffeinated and trying to end up in as many conversations as possible. So nice.

What is the number one reason that Composable transformations fail?

James 23:19

Well I've heard really positive things about the first two events, and um I'm sure this will be exactly the same. Well, um I think this this uh episode will be being released, released in in May. So perfect timing for the listeners to hear who you are and a bit about Iona before you travel there to to New York and hopefully meet most of them. Yes. Um so cool. Okay, let's move on to the next question. Um one of my favorite questions of the of this series. In your opinion, what is the number one reason why composable transformations fail?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah, um kind of the end result of a composable transformation might fail. Oh, the I think the if we think about what is a failure first, so I think the the the the you know what constitutes as a as a failure in the transformation is that the business isn't getting what it was promised, right? So I think that's the biggest failure.

James 24:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Um so they they they were led on this journey, and on the other end of that uh tunnel, uh you know, they're not getting what they were uh promised, right? So I think that's the that's what constitutes us a failure. And and then we can look into the different reasons why that has happened, right? Um so you know, number one reason, or I can give you a couple of different reasons. So, first of all, I don't think this um kind of a composable commerce project or the implementation or program can be really acquired as a turnkey solution. So like uh you in your question, you you're mentioning composable transformation. So it needs involvement from nearly all parts of uh the business, especially if it's commerce, because uh uh digital commerce touches on every every single area of the business. There's you know, supply chain, logistics, finance, legal, there's everybody. There's marketing, of course, there's the e-com team, there's IT, there's you know, technology leadership, everybody working together on that. So um I think um you know not if uh the the main reason is that not enough time is spent on the discovery and really understanding what is it that the business needs or wants to do in the future, uh, and what these new technologies also allow the organization to do and to achieve. Um and it might be because of you know, the why that that discovery piece fails might be because of the siloed nature of the organization or some something else. So you need to somehow try to break those silos and bring bring everybody together. Um and it's not something that you can acquire off the shelf, I I believe. So so it it is it resembles the adoption of composable commerce or composable technologies, it resembles a lot more of a custom build. It is much much more of a tailored suit than something that you just go off and acquire uh and think that, okay, this is gonna solve all of our all of our problems. So you need to really look closely into each and each functional area almost. Um what you know what is it that we want to do here? Do we want to remove manual work? Do we want to automate something? Do what can be automated? Um you know, is there an opportunity for AI to be applied here? Um, these sort of things. And I think those are the most fruitful conversations that will then lead on to the business actually getting what they want and what they have been promised.

Have you noticed that as everyone becomes more aware of expectations, that getting them involved in the project has become easier?

James 27:18

Okay, okay. I like the fact you started that with the discovery. Do you have have you have you um noticed that as um companies become more familiar with the expectations for them on a move to come on on this journey that getting everyone involved has become easier?

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Um I I would say yes. I think they're um I think organizations are a little bit more aware of the magnitude of these kinds of um transformations and they are by definition or by default more they they want to be more um hands-on in that in that uh in that transformation. And I think um kind of the discovery doesn't necessarily have a start and an end, so that discovery also it kind of um you know it for sure has a starting point, but then you know there's a ton of discovery that goes on and goes on and goes on, and um and uh I think also like this kind of um you know idea of uh constant evolution or constant improvement is much easier to do when you have these uh more flexible uh technologies that your business is running on. So that also um unlocks a lot of innovation also and and allows companies to rediscover uh and start challenging their ways of working, um, and and start implementing better ways of working and and more effective ways of working and and drive a lot more business results, also. So so yeah, um have to understand the importance of of that process and try to steer it into the right direction.

What are the top three things would you advise a customer on before starting their journey?

James 29:20

Um yeah, I mean the reason I ask is because the majority of people that I've spoken to have all highlighted uh in one way or another the communication within the business or the ability to have the whole business brought into the change. So it's obviously a very big topic. Um and I mean if I imagine it's something that gets spoken about a a lot, and over time that hopefully goes is is now the norm. So that'll continue to get easier because it's just expected that all of the stakeholders are aligned, no matter what side of the business you're in, everyone's sending the same message, and everyone across the company, no matter what department you're sat in, you're you're involved because it's important that you are involved to have the successful uh transformation. Um okay, cool. So the next question um is in your opinion, uh, what are the top three that in your opinion, what are the top three um things you would advise any end customer uh to do before starting their journey?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Um great question. Um and I think everybody is doing it. Um either they they're making a very conscious effort or a bit of a more subconscious effort, looking into things, um uh exploring the themes uh around composability. Uh but I would encourage um these end customers to do would be to uh be first and foremost quite open-minded. Um it is an evolving ecosystem with more and more market entrants. Um so I I can completely understand it's that it's hard to navigate at first. Um, but just take your time to do this kind of pre-pre-discovery um uh and and research into the landscape yourself. Try to understand who are the players in the ecosystem, the bigger players, the niche players, um, and and get to know them a little bit. Uh, formulate your own viewpoint, try to understand their viewpoint onto the subject, um, speak on uh to both sides of the table, perhaps. Uh you know, people like like us on the on the SI side, understand their strengths, uh what are they saying, um, and also the vendor side. Um, and seek out these uh case studies. I think those are very powerful. Um, some reference implementations or cases or experiences from your vertical. Um, you know, speak to people who have started to adopt these technologies in in uh in your own vertical, um, and and really try to see beyond the sales pitches and the marketing materials and and really understand kind of the tangible business drivers and the expected benefits. So I think uh top three things from my perspective would be to kind of initiate your own little research project before launching an you know a big RFP process, um, because you're gonna be overwhelmed. Um so it's good to kind of start to chart out the map uh yourself first.

James 33:01

Okay. So a big a big part of of what you've just said that is kind of just researching and and educating your yourself so you you know what you're getting into.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah, so a bit of your own research, look into the case studies and try to speak with other um you know um end customers who've gone through uh or are in in the middle of their own transformation, and then uh look into the business drivers and the expected expected outcomes and benefits and and see if they match to the ones that you have uh identified yourself.

James 33:44

Oh, yeah, okay. The uh the case studies point is is one that's uh really interesting. It's it's one again that a lot of people mention, but uh I feel as though it's often one that that uh companies can overlook as well. Um for me, I think it's really important to speak to to others in this space. We've we've already discussed it, it's not new anymore. There's many a person and many companies that have undergone this change um of different shapes and sizes. I I think it's absolutely fundamental to be speaking to people that have that have done it, understand what went well, but equally as importantly, what didn't go so well, what challenges did you face? And Joe, what if you were to do it again, what would you do differently?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, absolutely. And I I've noticed that uh people who've um you know who have experience in the in the kind of in the composable space are quite willing to um speak about their own experiences, not only just the you know uh SIs, but but uh other customers as well. Um there's a lot of advocates. Um also Mac Alliance is a great resource in that. So you can reach out to Mac Alliance, they they they can um facilitate that conversation, they can try to find uh a customer case study uh that is likely to be uh um resembling the one you have, uh, that's yours. Um and and yeah, and I think that's pretty much in every case or opportunity or a process that we're involved in. We try to get customers talking to each other, um, and also uh the vendors are are quite keen on linking um customers speaking to their existing customers and share experiences and so on and so forth. So that's definitely something that you should keep in mind. You're not alone, let's put it that way.

What is the number one thing that you would be doing before deciding on which SI to use?

James 35:49

Yeah, well that's it. I think I think that's a really important one. So uh so brill, thank you. Um so next question then. Um let's fit the script and you're sat on the other side of the fence, Miko. What's the what's the the number one thing that you would be doing before you decide to finalize on the SI uh that you use?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

That's a really really good question, also. Um, I mean it's and it's something that I I've been thinking about a lot. So, what do I what would I do if I were on the customer shoes and how would I try to pick the right right SI. Um and well, have to be said that um a lot of the projects that we work on, uh one of the I mean the most successful projects are typically those where the customer has also quite good technical um capabilities in-house already. So um, and that would be therefore my first kind of thing to double check that. Um is the SI so if that's the case also that you have internally you have great technology leadership and and um also like uh developers working working in-house, or you have some other um agencies or ICT services companies that you trust uh working for you already. They have been with the business for a long time, they know it you know the business inside out. So I think that's really valuable. Um, it doesn't mean that you have to kind of you know throw them, throw that um out in order to get this new SI in. That's that's at least not how I feel. Um you know it should be done. So so I would look into um maybe even formulating this um you know uh multi-vendor environment where this um this SI where who has the composable um experience would come in to augment the team, um, whether it's a team of in-house developers or a hybrid mix of of different SIs, even. So that's definitely something I would check first. So is this SI capable of doing that? Because some of them might not be, um, they don't work so well with others, or they have a very um you know, predefined process that goes in in a certain way. Um, of course, the next thing I would check is are they part of the alliance? Um, you know, I think that's uh a stamp of guaranteed uh stamp of uh you know approval in that sense that that you can at least trust that they've done their homework, they've been, you know, um in the circuit for uh for a while, they've they've done their homework basically. Um and then you know, a couple of other things, of course. So which tech stacks are they coming from? What's the kind of the historical context? Are they you know recently, have they recently transformed from a monolithic company into you know favoring more composable approaches? What are the benefits in that perhaps? So they might have great experiences from different verticals. They know, for example, the B2B manufacturing landscape really well, kind of the data landscape in that, or the IoT, or whatever that you're really looking for. It might not be that such a bad thing that they're coming from the kind of the SAP world or whatever. Um but really try to look look at look, you know, the strengths in that particular SI. Um, but at the same time, you might not want to be a guinea pig. So you might not want to be their first. Um, of course, every every SI is gonna have their first build, but you might not want to be the first one anyway, unfortunately.

James 40:01

Um I guess we're at the point in which we are now, you would hope that there are very few firsts. It may be a there's a chance it could be a company's first, but you would hope that there were a number of individuals in the company that had experience and and been through uh a number of these transformations. Um absolutely and and and and look, you can always get a slice, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

You don't have to. I mean, if there's if you have a very uh good relationship with with an existing SI and a partner who's been with you for a very long time, you've gone through you know all kinds of turmoil and turbulence, and you've come to the other side, and now you want to change your stack tech stack, you might just need a bit of acceleration here and there. So that type of consultancy is also available. So um just you know um ensuring that your transformation goes smoothly. Um so you know that's another approach. If you don't want to completely change your SI relationship, um you you can always speak to you know some of the composable leaders and advocates and and and try to see if there's if if there's a way to make that work. So I think there's always a way.

Where do you see the market going from here?

James 41:28

Okay. A lot a long list of all of all of your checkpoints then as to what you would check uh from the specialism within the business to their experience to their ways of working, and and I I mean that's all important, right? So yeah. Okay, so let's um let's wrap this up there, Miko. So where do you see the market going from here? The million dollar question, eh?

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah, um, I already know what my my next business is going to be. Well, joking aside, um I don't know where we actually are on the you know the hotner hype cycle. I I I think we're somewhere still pretty high high on the on the on the curve there. Um, but I really feel that the kind of the fog is starting to lift. Um at least there's now a lot more experiences than they were like five years ago. Uh a lot more best practices, a lot more uh patterns, implementation patterns, a lot more accelerators. Um, you know, there's this wealth of information and knowledge that didn't exist maybe, you know, 48 months ago, 24 months ago, or even 12 months ago. So I think there's a tremendous uplift in productivity that has happened in the recent recent months um alone. Um so I think that that is is still going to continue and it's gonna pick up pace. Um and I think um, you know, from the Nordics perspective, I mean the Nordics have been pioneering and embracing headless technologies for a very long time. So I think that is still going to continue. Um and uh a lot of other markets are are going to you know start embracing headless as kind of a starting point for their composable journey. Um but uh what is going to happen, I think these bigger, almost untouchable monoliths, you mentioned SAP, so let's bring them up again. So they will start to at first they're they're going to start becoming challenged by these more nimble, agile uh providers for sure. Uh also and and also the customer demand is starting to force them to actually um start decomposing there. um solutions. You know, ERP and the finance space for sure. And and we're already seeing some composable ERPs actually. What is still missing is the composable CRM. So I hope someone someone will make it soon, otherwise I will have to do it. That's the million dollar answer also to the million dollar question. But um but yeah um I I don't think there's this train has left the station so um there's no stopping.

James 44:42

You don't you don't sound too in enthusiastic about breaking down the CRM.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Well there must be a reason why it doesn't exist yet um I I go up on the on on on on on the on Google every day and try to search for a composable CRM and it's still not there.

James 45:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

So so I don't know why but um I'm I'm hoping it will uh see the day of light a light of day one day. Yeah.

James 45:13

All right well for anyone that's listening if you are aware of the of a composable CRM then make sure you reach out to Miko because he cannot find it right now. And that could be the next big thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yes. And I I am willing to invest in it also. So let me know if there's somebody somebody out there.

James 45:36

Alright well there we go I um yeah I haven't seen or heard about the composed book the RP yet so uh I'll go away and do some research um on on that after this conversation that that is something that I know previous guests have said they could see happening in the future um so maybe they have the the the the uh the mystic ball I've seen a glimpse of it so um and it's coming I don't know if it's surprising or not but I think it's coming from Germany actually.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Okay. So really interesting and and looking forward to seeing a lot more development in that that area.

James 46:14

Definitely definitely well I like I said I'll go away and research that uh after this conversation and let's see composable ERPs and composable CRMs for the next uh 24 months. Yes and finance systems as well okay everything slowly everything let's decomponatize every single piece of uh technology we can yes I would hope so all right well look it's been brilliant talking to you day Miko thank you very much um I think the word honest comes to mind when uh when we talk when we reflect back or listen to some of the answers around um the the the growth of composable the the the the the challenges and failures and obviously the the positives as well um so yeah really appreciate your honesty in in all of that and um yeah look as always um if you're tuning in and you find these conversations useful please do subscribe please like and share amongst your network um if each episode can help one person uh make the right decisions for their transformation then it's doing its job thanks again Miko thank you James