.png)
The FODcast
In the FODcast (The Future of #DigitalCommerce) we explore the real career stories of the people who have made it to the very top of the sector and those who are working at the cutting edge of innovation and change right now. Listeners to the podcast gain insight into the journeys industry leaders have taken to be where they are today, the challenges they are facing now and their aims for the future.
The FODcast
Building Customer Loyalty in the Digital Age: Insights from Fiona Stevens
Can simple loyalty strategies really make a difference in today’s competitive landscape?
In the latest episode of our podcast series, The FODcast, we’re joined by Fiona Stevens, Director of Marketing at LoyaltyLion, to explore the power of loyalty programs in digital commerce.
Fiona shares how focusing on customer loyalty early on can set brands apart, even without the resources of giants like Amazon. We dive into actionable insights that can help transform how your customers interact with your brand and drive lasting retention and growth.
💡 What’s in this episode?
- The stages of building a successful loyalty program and tailoring rewards to customer journeys
- How personalisation and gamification enhance customer engagement
- Success stories from brands like The Inkey List and AU Vodka, and how they integrate loyalty into their digital strategies
- The power of data in shaping loyalty programs and boosting conversion rates Emerging trends like omnichannel experiences and sustainable fashion in loyalty marketing
🎙️ A must-listen for anyone curious about the impact of loyalty programs on customer engagement and business growth.
Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.
Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/
Welcome to the latest series of the Fodcast, where we bring you the latest insights into the future of digital commerce. In Season 6, we continue to interview some of the most respected professionals in the industry as we broaden the topics to cover what it takes to build a business within e-commerce, navigating through business change, as well as the future of technology within digital commerce. As we continue our journey to have one of the best podcasts within commerce, we ask you to like and share within your network if you enjoy our content. Hello and welcome back to the podcast the Future of All Things Digital Commerce. Today, I'd like to welcome Fiona Stevens, marketing Director for Loyalty Lion, as we continue with the theme of promotions, discounts and loyalty A timely subject, given we're recording two days out from Black Friday. Welcome, fiona.
Speaker 2:Hi, hi, thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining Fiona. You've been with Loyalty Lion for a long time now, I think seven years to be precise, so do you want to give a quick summary of your experience to date?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Yeah, marketing director at Loyalty Lion. We are a loyalty platform for Shopify stores. We help Shopify brands create their own integrated loyalty programs so that they can really increase returning customer rates and really drive revenue growth through retention. I've been working in marketing for around 16 years, been focused on e-commerce and loyalty for around a decade now, so very much a favorite topic for me.
Speaker 1:Awesome, someone that is very well placed for this very conversation, then it's certainly something I'm looking forward to. Um, as I've said a number of times now on the show, loyalty is an area I believe many brands can improve, so I think it's a good, good place to start by jumping in with your thoughts on the current state of play within retail yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think retail is a very interesting place to be at the moment for a few reasons, I think. Firstly, competition. You know it's. There are so many stores selling very, very similar things. It's really you need to find a way to to stand out, and if you're selling the same products, then that has to be your brand. And I think that, combined with the fact that acquisition costs are really increasing and I'm sure this is something we'll talk about today because it's very pertinent, but you know all those people shopping online and you need to be the one that reaches them, which is costing more and more all the time and then, actually, your consumers are just getting more demanding as well. You know we are used to online shopping now. We know what we want, we know what we want to see from brands, and when you put all those three things together, I think it's not an easy challenge anymore in retail.
Speaker 1:It's certainly not. No, yeah, I just look at myself as an example of a customer and just to think about how my expectations have changed over the last, well, few years. And I mean, I'm not a huge online shopper. I know there's plenty out there that shop online far more than me but we just have the expectation now of, uh, seamless process like next day delivery, easy return process, like best, best deal out there. You don't want all the faff and you go back a few years and you kind of you didn't mind that, but now it's like, okay, we've just been amazonized, if that's even a word yeah, and I think it's super interesting for other brands that aren't amazon, you know, and and aren't some of the really juggernaut um alibaba, you know.
Speaker 2:How do you actually deliver the same service when you don't have anything like the same resource or operational um logistical tools behind you?
Speaker 1:it's, it's it's difficult to meet those consumer expectations when you don't have what amazon has at your best yeah, and I think that's why loyalty is so important, because I know if, if I were a brand, I would want to make sure that my cut, I kept my customers and I didn't lose them to any competitors. Now, easier said than done, but there's a number of things that they can do which I'm sure will be picked over the course of the the conversation today um, to both interact and and keep their customers on. For, yeah, I guess a good starting point is like how how can, how can we improve loyalty?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think one of the um, one of the biggest sort of misinterpretations around loyalty is that it's it has to be a really big project. You know you can only invest in a loyalty program if you're, if you're really going to um, make it all singing, all dancing, tesco's club card, nectar style. You know that, that level, and I just don't think that's true. I think you can start really small and you can start really simple. You know, once you have a customer, you you have somebody who can come back and repeat purchase from you and they've already bought from you, they already like you and they already trust you. So it's going to be easier to convert them a second time than it is to bring someone in for the first time.
Speaker 2:So I think, although you might focus heavily on acquisition at the beginning of your journey and, yes, you probably need to build up that customer base you don't want to wait too long before you start thinking about how to bring those people back, particularly because, as we just said, you know there's a lot of people selling very similar products in the market. If you're in an industry like beauty, you know you can actually just go to Sainsbury's and buy your shampoo conditioner while you're buying your groceries, it's very easy to lose people. So I think you know, when it comes to to why loyalty and why it's so important you, as soon as you've got customers, you've got people that can be advocating for you, but also people that can be coming back for that second purchase. So really, instead of being scared of retention, people need to start start going with it a little bit earlier than they are at the moment okay, you mentioned the, uh, the.
Speaker 1:The total cost of acquisition has increased um quite a bit recently. Do you, do you have any data to to hand us to, kind of maybe, the percentage increase over the last couple of years?
Speaker 2:yeah, I believe it is around 60 in the last five years okay I'm gonna. I'm not, I'm gonna get the numbers wrong, but I'm not gonna put a dollar amount to that because I can't remember the exact numbers. But you know it used to be that bringing a customer back cost you pennies, and now you're looking at a whole lot more is. Yeah, it's. It's incredible because so many more people are advertising on platforms like facebook, instagram, tiktok, etc. Just the cost to get yourself seen on there is exponential yeah, that doesn't.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't surprise me, um, but that's, uh, that is a large increase, um 60 give or take. So it's going to be felt by the, by the brand, obviously, in terms of their margins and, um, I mean ultimately down to the customer as well, in terms of the cost of the product yeah, I don't quote me on this, I would have to do it myself, but I think I think it's something like it used to cost about nine you.
Speaker 2:You'd get about um 9p, um cost per click, and now you're looking at more like 35p, that kind of that kind of increase, but something along those lines okay, we I mean yeah, regardless, it's a substantial increase, which is obviously something that's going to be playing on a lot of a lot of brands minds.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned that we can kind of doesn't doesn't need to be a big, complex project. You can, you can start small. So what are the top things that you're seeing, uh, brands do?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think. I think it depends where you are in. What you do depends on where you are in your loyalty journey. Obviously, if you are starting out and you're just starting to build things, I think you know it can be as simple as just awarding customers for really simple things like, if they create an account, give them points for that. If they make a purchase, give them points for that, and allowing them to exchange those points for really simple rewards like money off, percentage, voucher off your next purchase, money off your next next purchase, etc. It can be a dollar amount or a percentage.
Speaker 2:But then you know, once they start engaging with that program, once you build up a loyal customer base, you build up a following. You can really start extending that out. You can start to offer points for other things as well, so, and actually things that benefit your brand as well. So you might offer points in exchange for social media likes and follows. You might offer points for reviews or referrals. You know things that actually help you acquire new customers as well and then you can start making. You know you're giving your customers more and more ways to earn points, but then you can start making the rewards that they come back and redeem more exciting as well. So we're seeing a lot of people do um, things like free product rewards. So, instead of, um, just money off the next purchase, you say, redeem your points for this sample size of our latest moisturizer that we've just launched. You know things like that. So, again, just get people a bit more excited. Then you can sort of move into things like experience-based rewards, um, things like access to double points days or invites to exclusive events, be the first one to try new products, that kind of thing. So there's very much a journey from your bog standard points and rewards program through to something that's a lot more engaging. But I think you know sorry, you asked for the top things that brands can do.
Speaker 2:I think you know the first and foremost, most important thing really is to integrate your loyalty program on site. So you know, the more your program appears at all the natural points of a customer journey, the more engagement you're going to see. You really want to have a standalone integrated loyalty page that showcases your program. You need it to show people why they should join it. What's the benefit? What do they need to do? How easy is it to use? You know, the easier it is, the more people will engage with it. It should be really personalized. They should be able to see their points balance. They should be able to see how many rewards they have available to them all that kind of thing and you can do some really beautiful pages. We've got some clients the Inkey List is one I would recommend having a look at. Um also water drop they. They both have beautiful pages. They're actually very fun. They make you genuinely excited about engaging with the program and seeing what you can, what you can get as a loads program member, um. And then I think it, if you've got that integration on site, you also need it outside of their shopping online as well.
Speaker 2:So typically, the best advice we can give a brand is to integrate their loyalty and their email strategy. We know that people are more likely to open emails and SMS messages if they know that those are personalized. So if you start to get used to a brand sending you much more personalized messages, you're going to open them in future a lot more so. Using your loyalty data to really add that unique information, things like um just putting at the end of a post-purchase email did you know you earned this many points and you've unlocked this reward, or sending people emails to say, um, you're this many points away from your next rewards, you should come back and and shop. Those are really nice ways of of using loyalty and email together to provide a very personalized experience, and actually it's a great vehicle then to promote your program as well. I think Astrid and me are a fantastic example of a brand where they actually feature their loyalty program in every email they send. They have a block that sits in that, whether it is a post-purchase order confirmation or a marketing email about something completely different, they will always feature the loyalty program because it's really important to them that people join and experience it.
Speaker 2:And then I think you know, as you get more advanced and more sophisticated it really is about tiers and gamification. You want as many people as possible to join your program. You know that's where the integrated page comes in. You then want as many people as possible to keep on engaging with it, and that's where email is so important. But then you get to sort of OK, how do I really use this to increase the lifetime value of my customers? How do I really use it to motivate more purchases, reduce time between purchases, that kind of thing, and that's where tears come in.
Speaker 2:Effectively I mean and by tears I mean a very simple sort of bronze, silver gold. If you're in bronze, you unlock some. Unlock some basic things, like maybe birthday gifts, free shipping, move up to silver and you get I don't know exclusive access to new product launches, etc. And then the gold tier can be, in some cases, absolutely wild, and AU Volca is one of my favorite examples of tiers, because what they give you in the top tier is crazy. They do things like VOP access to their events, but then they also let you join product groups, focus groups, that kind of thing. They invite you to engage with influencers. They give you priority access to limited edition products as they drop as well.
Speaker 2:So you know you, you're really. Their gold tier is really showing people a different side to the brand. It's not, you're not just buying something. You know, it's buying a bottle of vodka. You're really, you know, starting to engage with the brand on an ongoing basis. And they do some really cool things around holiday sales as well. So, for example, they will lock down their entire site and only certain tier members are actually able to buy at that point and, again, that just encourages people to. If you know you're only going to be able to access the site over black friday. For example, if you're such and such tier member, you're going to spend the whole year making sure you are such and such a tier member.
Speaker 1:Um so, you buy your vodka from there, not from sainsbury's right. So exactly exactly so.
Speaker 2:It's just it's a clever way of keeping people engaged all the time, also showing that you appreciate them. You know, if people spend a lot and engage a lot in order to hit those higher tiers, so you really want to make it worth their while, and then obviously the benefit of that is they'll talk about it. You know, if you get invited to an amazing au vodka event, you're almost certainly going to be putting that on instagram yeah, exactly more people hear about your tears, more people want to join your tears.
Speaker 1:So, and just on the note of this, uh, this au vodka piece for the, the, the gold tier members, or whatever we're going to call them like going to that kind of event is something that is. It almost links back into a community feel as well, and I know from a number of conversations over the last year that brands have invested in communities that also seem to be thriving at the minute, as that seems to be where the real buzz is. It gets them active on socials, as you've mentioned lots of hashtags, lots of resharings, etc. And suddenly that brand is just getting promoted from tens of thousands of people that wouldn't have maybe done that beforehand. Um, so it's really unlocking that extra, extra, extra, extra marketing as well 100.
Speaker 2:You know your loyal customers, your loyal community are your biggest advocates.
Speaker 2:They're the most likely to talk about you and and it is it's lovely to see some of these, the bigger brands, sort of really realizing this but but making the most of it as well. I think we were talking to represent clothing recently on a case study that, um and they their facebook community is incredibly engaged um, it's, it's great to see their customers talking to each other, getting excited about new products together, and I think it's actually something that comes down from some of the best loads programs, like sephora is probably the best loads program in the world. You know we all wish we could be like sephora, but one of the things they do best is community. You know they actually the customers, answer each other's questions. They don't need someone from the support team online asking questions about the products because the community are answering each other's questions on it and that kind of engagement. Obviously, we can't all be a brand that big, but they're doing it fantastically well and it's nice to see other people starting to pick it up as well that's really cool.
Speaker 1:That's really cool. I wasn't aware of that. About sephora, um, but touching upon represent, again, that's another brand that's very community driven, that they do a lot of stuff, particularly in manchester, where they're from, with run clubs and and health and fitness and what have you. So again, it's really engaging the community, um, and and obviously we well, we don't all know, but anyone that knows the brand represent knows that they've been through a huge growth over the last sort of three or four years, um, and it's a testament to kind of the image that they built for themselves, um, but I mean you, you touched upon so many like really cool um topics just there. Um, I can't remember all of them, but just just a couple to go back to, I think, which are really good.
Speaker 1:Is the the point you mentioned in integrating the email and just how powerful an email can be saying that, hey, thanks your purchase. Did you know you're only 15.99 away from moving up a tier? If you move up to that tier, you will unlockx y z. You're going to be like great, I want to go. What can I? What can I buy for 15.99? Like I want to.
Speaker 1:I want to move up to that tier, like, even if you don't know what you get for that tier, you're going to be like I want to get there because it's just. It's just the way that we're wired. We want to get to that next level all the time and, like I said, I'm not a massive online shopper, so this may happen more than I'm aware of, but in my experience these sorts of things they don't happen as often as I feel like they could do and probably and should do yeah, absolutely, and actually it's funny that you you said then um, you know, I might not, might not even know what's in the tier above, and we are actually seeing some brands do hidden tiers.
Speaker 2:So the, the very top tier is actually exclusive and you, you don't get to see what's in it until you join, and I think that's quite a strange approach as well. So really, you know then you really, you know, you really are a vip, um, when you hit that tip that's quite an approach that we're seeing a bit more these days yeah, it's like, hopefully you're not gutted once you get there.
Speaker 1:Right, you spend a fortune and then you're like, ah damn, didn't want any of this, but that was cool, and I guess that's something that's going back to the start of the journey, like you said. I mean, everyone can look at a good integrated email campaign within their loyalty. I don't imagine that's something that's particularly expensive and it just gives that teaser to the customer, it gets them engaged and it gets them back on your website and it also it gets them okay well, if I buy this from you again, then I'm going to move up there. Um, it's maybe not even making them buy something immediately, but it's just that thought process of, okay, next time I want to buy my such and such, I'll go back to this website rather than go on google and search for best deals or whatever it might be yeah something that I figured would be interesting to talk about now and, uh, so an experience that I had really recently.
Speaker 1:Um and this just sums up me online shopping. So normally I go on amazon. I need to get some more face cream and I generally use use Clinique. Amazon didn't have it in stock for the first time ever, so I've had to Google Clinique. Fortunately, it's Black Friday, so there's a lot of deals and actually Clinique themselves are doing the best deal.
Speaker 1:But what I found really interesting and I don't know if this is something that's easily amended or not I've gone on the website as a guest and it's offered me two free products after placing an order of a certain value. All of those products are women's products, despite all of my order being male, and it amazed me that the website couldn't understand that I was buying products for a man. So I've had to order two products for females, which, I mean I'm not just going to waste them, but to that could just be wasted products, which is a a waste for the environment and be an impact on clinics margins. So I guess my question to you, fiona, would be like is this an easy workaround? Is this something that would fit within your kind of area of expertise could? Would loyalty line know I was a male if they had loyalty line integrated in their platform.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it would depend if you had an account and you signed up. But that is a super interesting use case and, yeah, a bit disappointing really in this day and age that you wouldn't be showing the men's versions. I agree. I think what you can do with the loyalty program and what, again, not enough people are really doing, is use it as a vehicle to collect more data and more information about a person. So it would, obviously, if someone's a guest shopper, it's. It's difficult. I would agree. You bought a man's product should be fairly obvious, but, um, if you're a guest shopper, it is harder to figure out. But if you can get somebody into your loyalty program, then you can really start using your program to collect more data that you can then use to personalize product recommendations, etc. So one thing we see people do really well is incentivizing profiles or quizzes with points. So complete this quiz and you'll receive 100 loyalty points. And there's a few use cases that I really like. There's a few use cases that I really like.
Speaker 2:Actually, there's a dog food brand, edgarden Cooper, and they will give you points if you stop and take the time to create a pet profile, so it will ask you questions about your pet, what's their name, when were they born, but also things like any dietary requirements and what kind of coat do they have those kinds of things. Then they'll they'll actually use the dog's name in the emails. So obviously everyone, everyone immediately thinks that's very cute. And then dogs are, you know, gold for marketing and so it suddenly feels like they're addressing you and your pet, who you love very much. So that works really well. But then also they'll start tailoring the, the offers and the deals that they send you and the products that they surface to you based on your dog's personal dietary requirements or the type of coat that they have, etc.
Speaker 2:I also saw a lovely example recently a company called Lace Laboratory. So they are an underwear brand and they actually use their quiz again. It's something like 100-150 points for anyone who completes it. But they used it to try and understand your purchasing patterns. So they ask questions like how regularly do you purchase underwear, do you purchase underwear as a gift for somebody else, etc. And they you know, then they can use that, they can start feeding that back into their marketing. If someone says once every two years, you don't want to bombard them once every week with a, with an offer or a deal, you know, but if you know that they buy once a year.
Speaker 2:You might, you know, email them a great offer every six months and try and bring that purchase frequency up without annoying them. And I guess another good example is probably someone like the inky list again, who use it to sort of understand your, their beauty brand. So they want to know your skin type, your hair type um, do you have oily skin? Normal skin? Um, do you have greasy hair, fine hair? You know, then again they can start using that information to send you the products that you are most likely to buy. And obviously it's. It's great for you as a brand because you get more data, you get to surface the right things, but it's great for a consumer. Well, because you just don't get all the stuff that you wouldn't buy. You know you wouldn't get emails from Clinique about women's products.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if they knew I was a man, right yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. I think there is a definite challenge for retailers at the moment. More and more obviously, we have the whole cookie I can't say the word cookiepocalypse, I think they called it where Google started changing the rules on that. Consumers have got a lot more sensitive about their data, a lot more private, about what they're willing to share. You do have to be a bit more careful now, and you have to be very careful with the email rules as well. There's all this again silly word, but they called it Yahoo, google.
Speaker 1:You know Yahoo and Google made lots of changes to how frequently you can send emails, who you can email, that kind of thing. So you say that. But I mean I still get. I still get 20, 30, 40 emails a day and it's the same brands. Like four or five times a week I'm getting emails from them and I feel like I unsubscribed two years ago but that's still happening it's true, it may take a while.
Speaker 2:It's a bit like GDPR It'll take a while for it to bed in, but people are starting to be fined, I believe. But yeah, I just think it's, the more you can use your lawyers program to collect the information, the more you can make it an experience that actually you're not going to mind receiving those emails because they're really relevant to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I love the. I love the idea of the quiz. I'm trying to think, if I've had I feel like I have been sent a couple of quizzes from brands, maybe over the over the last year, but not um, none that stand out but I think it's such a good way to interact with your specific um client base. It allows you to to get their, their data that's specific to them, that will allow you to then understand buying habits, like you said, products that are of interest, anything that's specific to them that will allow you to then understand buying habits, like you said, products that are of interest, anything that's going to allow you to then hit them with really tailored products and or promotions.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think, from a customer point of view, if it is a brand that I do shop with regularly, I would have no issues giving you that, giving them that data. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't go on a random website and then spend five minutes filling out a quiz for 100 loyalty points that I might never use, but any brand that I use consistently, I would be more than happy to spend five, maybe even 10 minutes answering that quiz. If it meant, if I was, if I knew that off the back of that, I would then only be targeted with relevant products and promotions. I think it's worthwhile, um so to me that's something, a really simple thing that brands can probably integrate, probably at a very little cost, that could have a really big impact on their roi over time yeah, absolutely, and I think it is.
Speaker 2:Loyalty is a value exchange. You know it has to be a two-way street you have. If you want consumers to come back and repeat purchase from you, you have to make it worth their while. If you want them to engage in a loads program, you have to make it attractive and make it obvious to them why it is of benefit to do so yeah, I really like that idea.
Speaker 1:So something really simple that, uh, that can, that can be done. That just out of interest, do you? Is that common, common practice in the market? Are there a lot of brands that are doing that? Getting more, so definitely okay, yeah, I imagine, even more so with the rise of like d to c over the last couple of years. I guess these are the sort of brands that really want that information. So, uh, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good to hear yeah, I think there's probably a tipping point where you start to invest more in your crm strategy. You know, you um you go from I've got a great database at last. It's taken me ages to build up this database. I'm going to email everyone to. Okay, I have a CRM marketer who is actually dissecting that database and really looking at which emails should go to who and how are they performing and what can you do to make them more relevant.
Speaker 1:I think there's probably a tipping point somewhere there where it becomes very worthwhile so we've got the obvious benefits with customer loyalty, which would be the increase in um loyal customers like hired by baskets and what have you. What other benefits do we see in the market outside of this?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think there's. There's a few. Really, I'm biased, but obviously loyalty helps everywhere, um, but I think, yeah, one big area is probably around returns. You know, we know returns are one of the biggest headaches that e-commerce stores have at the moment. But the customers who are most loyal to you and repeat purchase from you regularly. They know you and they know their product, know your products. You know if you think of the brands that you buy from the most let's say, clothing wise, you know what size fits you, so you order that size and you don't need to return it. Well, you definitely don't order two and return one. Same with beauty products. You know you keep buying it because you know it works for you. So I think the more you can engage customers into a loyalty program and and drive that repeat purchase, the better they get to know you and your products and the lower your returns will be. I think there's also they tend to come to you based on recommendations. You know loyal customers are great for referrals. So if you're, if you, referred customers, I think are four times more likely to um to buy than customers that you acquire through other channels. They come to you with an inherent level of trust because they've been recommended by a friend or a family member. So, again, the returns rate is just is just less from those customers than it would be normally. I think you know that, especially around holiday season, returns are even more of an issue, especially people buying multiple versions of the same product, trying them on at home and then sending four out of five back, and so, yeah, I think reduced returns is definitely something people don't necessarily tie to a loyalty program but is a serious benefit, and I think you also just see higher conversion rates across your whole site.
Speaker 2:Your loyalty program will give you a reasonable amount of awareness. You know we've already talked about incentivizing things like social likes and follows with loyalty points. We've also talked about. Somebody has a great experience with your tiers. They're more likely to talk about it online, um. But the other thing actually is reviews. So we strongly recommend that people uh, incentivize reviews with loyalty points, and you can be quite smart about it. You can say, okay, have 50 points for a written review, 100 points for a review that has a picture and 150 points for a video review. So you start to generate more and more and more of that really good quality, user generated content. You can then use that across all of your product pages, you can use it across your social media, you know you can use it everywhere and that again it just means a far higher conversion rate when people actually get to the site to buy from you. And and then I think I think there's there's a massive correlation or maybe not correlation relationship between product and loyalty.
Speaker 2:I think the product team and the marketing team in some cases can be a bit separate and a bit siloed, but actually they can really help each other out. You know we talked about AU Vodka's tiers and the fact that they allow top tier members to be part of a focus group. What could be better than hearing straight from your customers what they think of the new product you're building or what they thought of the old one and what they think you could do better? You know, with your loyal customers, you've got a bank of people who are who love your product and probably think quite regularly about what could be better or what they'd love to see from you. So you know there's a minefield of information um, a gold mine of information, sorry, not a minefield, um and definitely worth tapping into.
Speaker 2:But then I think there's also other ways that the marketing team, especially on the loyalty side, can really help out product. For example, excess inventory. You might finish the year with a whole bunch of stuff that you haven't shifted and just want to get rid of it. It's costing you to store it. You can't put it online. You might have to really discount it if you put it online. So you can actually start working that into your loyalty strategy. If you think of using them as free product rewards, for example, so anybody who's making a purchase and has a hundred points can access, um, this pair of sunglasses that you just have sitting around that you didn't manage to sell, or accessories like belts you know, those smaller products that you didn't manage to shift and are sitting there costing you money, could actually just be fed into your loyalty program as free rewards along the way. So yeah, I think there's. People don't quite stop and think enough about how loyalty and product tie together, but there's a big opportunity for a wider um halo effect on that one a number of ways.
Speaker 1:That last one was really cool. Um, and I really like uh, going back to the au vodka, um, top tier and just how they can get you utilize, uh, their customers for real-time feedback on products, on what they want to see, and all that kind of stuff, because that's just so valuable. Uh, knowing what your customers want is is the way forward for the business, right? If you don't know what your customers want, then you're going to potentially run into issues when you're releasing products that that they're not going to buy. So I mean that's really cool and, um, even just hearing about kind of how they reward their customers and what they're doing is I don't drink vodka, but it's making me want to go and buy something. Do you know what I mean? It's? It does have that kind of cool kind of air to the business as well yes, I mean they are a very cool brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the packaging, everything about them, the influences they work with, you know, very, very cool brand. But I think, um, you know, as a strategy it can work for for a lot of different brands selling a lot of different types of products. And I think if I was part of the journey of a product, you know, if I knew that I had fed back on moisturizer from clinique, for example, and then a new clinic moisturizer hit the market, I would definitely buy it because I'd be like I had a part in that. I I contributed to that and I really want to see what they did with the information as well so I think you know it's a great way of securing that repeat purchase information as well.
Speaker 1:So I think you know it's a great way of securing that repeat purchase. That's what I mean. Imagine, let's use the clinic example and, uh, once a year all of their top team to top team members got invited to um to somewhere in london, or anywhere for that matter um to to sample their new products and you get like this experience day. You get to be one of the, the chosen ones to sample the new product, to give your feedback and whatever else. You're going to feel really special and I mean all you've done is buy their product and what you're getting in return is to sample their new product, which they need you to do anyway, to know how good it is. So it's kind of a win-win for the brand, right?
Speaker 2:It is 100% yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I kind of a win-win for the brand. Right, it is 100, yeah, um. So yeah, I wonder if we'll start to see more, uh, more examples like this, because I I struggle right now on the spot, I'm struggling to think of any reasons why they wouldn't do it. Um, I don't see the cost being particularly high, depending on what the experience is um but, yeah and I think there's ways of keeping it not costly as well.
Speaker 2:I mean, I suppose it would be easier for brands who have a physical presence to do exclusive events. You know, if you have a store where you can hold that kind of event, it's going to be a lot easier. So e-commerce brands might struggle, but we actually see people doing great webinars as well. Um, I the again, it was the inky list, but there's another one um escaping me right now. Where they're they actually get their founders to do? To do webinars, to talk about the brand, why it's come to life, why it's been developed, what you know? What are they trying to achieve as a brand? Um, so it's. It's not quite as much fun as going in store and trying all the products, but it is. It's a way of building that connection.
Speaker 2:You can make it very exclusive to your top tier members, so only they can unlock that exclusive content. So I think there are cost-effective ways of doing it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it goes down to the creativity, I guess, of the people within the business and the partners they work with as to how they can make it work. But I mean, it seems like there's a lot that can be done still, um, to really improve the customer experience and the loyalty, and obviously that only has positive impacts for the, the brand itself. So I like it, I, I, uh, I like where we might be, where we might be heading. I feel like it could be lots of cool free stuff coming our way as consumers over the next few years, if we're loyal, that is if you're loyal yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what does, in your opinion, what does the future of loyalty look like?
Speaker 2:oh, good question. Um, I think there are two, two big themes that we'll see in in 2025, I think. Um, having just said that, not everybody has an online channel, I do think omnichannel is going to be a big thing next year. I think you know a lot of people have said to me recently that they are enjoying going back to the high street to do their shopping and browsing stores in real life, and I think that if you're going to really capitalize on that, you probably do need a physical presence as well. It could just be a pop-up that you run once a year. It doesn't necessarily have to be a store that you have all year round.
Speaker 2:You know that's how Gymshark started with their, their presence. But, yeah, I think we will see a lot more brands coming back to some form of physical presence, but what will be really important is that you have a consistent customer experience across that. So, to go back to represent clothing, um, one of my favorites, but they have really nailed this recently. They, um, they have opened up their new store in manchester. They, um have brought in all sorts of things physical loyalty cards, queue jump for loyalty program members, and you know they have people queuing around the block for their stores um yeah, the queues are crazy.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you're a loyalty program member, you know you get that queue jump in real life as well as online. I think it's um, it's just about wrapping up your online and offline experiences into one. You need to make sure that if you have a loyal customer, you recognize them everywhere that they're shopping and you give them the same kind of experiences and perks everywhere that they're shopping, and I think we're going to see more brands focusing on that next year. The other thing is actually, I think, around resale and kind of pre-loved items. Um, I think everybody's probably tried Vinted at this point, whether you're buying or selling, and I think it's a really interesting challenge for brands, because if people are buying your clothes through Vinted, they're still wearing your brand, your brand is still out there being seen, um, so it's not a loss. But if people are buying secondhand from Vinted, they're not buying new from you, so I think that has been something that people have had to wrap their heads around. Vinted is fantastic from a cost of living crisis perspective, from a sustainability perspective, um, but I think next year we're going to start to see brands taking that market share of the second-hand market back.
Speaker 2:So brands like lululemon, um, have been doing this for a while. You know they they integrate a bit of a pre-loved sale area with loyalty so you can earn points if you buy what? If you recycle your leggings, you can earn points for doing so. You can. Other loyalty program members can then buy those leggings second hand.
Speaker 2:Few of our clients do it very well as well never fully dressed, have been doing it again for a good few years and lucy and yak, who sell, they're very focused on sustainability, very focused on um, recycling garments rather than going into landfill etc. They again will give you lots of points if you send back your items and then other Lucy and Yak members can buy them pre-loved second hand. So I think, yeah, I'm really excited to see more brands getting in on that. I think it's it's difficult as an e-commerce brand to change your operations to be fully sustainable. You know we are at the end of the day. It needs to be delivered, it needs to be packaged. You can do as much as you can, but there are still people who will not want to buy firsthand because of the impact on the environment. And I think it's a very interesting way of capturing, keeping your brand awareness really high, keeping your products in circulation with as many people wearing them as possible.
Speaker 1:Um, but getting those that kind of positive uh spin on, not spin, but positive impact on sustainability as well yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, and so you mentioned there's a few brands that have been doing this quite well for some time and probably a number that are going to start to to pick this up as well, and I would be interested to see how they develop and the impact that has on marketplaces like Vinted, because Vinted just seems to be going from strength to strength and, as you said, I think everyone now has had some kind of experience with Vinted, whether it be buying or selling.
Speaker 1:I also think it unlocks a different type of customer as well for brands, depending on whether or not they get access to it outside of the loyalty program that they're running.
Speaker 1:As an example, um, brands like lululemon represent, etc. Then they're not the cheapest of brands and they probably have a lot of uh, they probably have a lot of fans, but not customers, because they can't afford a hundred and something pounds per garment, um, but actually buying it second hand, where it's maybe 50 of the cost, they may then be able to purchase something, and if they go and direct to the brand rather than through vinted, they will then be able to capture that person's data and then almost create a whole second type of customer profile for those that can, that want to wear the brand but can't afford the full, fully priced brand yeah, and look, it could completely change your demographic as well, you know, I can see a world where you have all of the university students wearing lululemon, whereas when I was a university very long time ago, you would have been wearing primark because you could possibly have afforded lululemon, you know.
Speaker 1:And then suddenly every student wants to wear it and suddenly you're selling to a whole different group of people than you ever thought you could so really expand your demographics as well and I also think on that, on just on that, uh, on that point, that as a as a customer, many people don't mind about buying secondhand now either. I think, even just going back to when I was younger, you didn't want to buy something secondhand because you kind of, oh, it's not, it's not new, but yeah, I don't. I feel like we don't. We don't have those uh, same same uh issues anymore. It's like cool, if you want to wear a brand, then you wear the brand. As long as the product's in good condition, whether it be a t-shirt or whatever. As long as it's, as long as it's clean and it's in a good condition, then you're going to wear it yeah, I think as well we've sort of adopted.
Speaker 2:You know, fast fashion changed everything a little bit. We don't wear clothes for years and years and years anymore. We don't wear them out. Even you know, half the stuff that you sell on vinted or donate to a charity shop you've worn a few times and you're actually just not. You just don't really like it that much, or you've worn it so you don't want to wear it again. Um, I think also it probably comes back to returns piece.
Speaker 2:A lot of people buy online and just aren't organized enough to return it within the window and then it all ends up on on vintage, so that actually could be another way of stores getting their products back without having to go through the returns process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess there's loads of different ways you can spin it up, but I think that's really cool. I mean, I'm interested to see how that develops and I just wonder how many brands we will see over the next two or three years that do have their own like pre-loved section. I feel like. I feel like there's a good opportunity for a lot of them, particularly the higher ticket brands as well. Yeah, cool. So something else I wanted to touch upon before we wrap things up Fiona is acquisition-led marketing.
Speaker 1:Now for anyone else into their fitness. I'm sure you'll know where I'm heading with this, but every single day, all of us get bombarded with emails from brands like MyProtein Bulk, the Protein Works and many others. For that note um with their best deals. Um, to be honest, I just find it annoying. Um, first of all, the the price it's discounted from was never really the original price. I I've never seen anyone pay 90 pounds for a tub of protein from my protein, yet that's the rrp for 40, 50 off or whatever. Um, and secondly, just give me a price like I don't want to buy something today to then get an email about the product being cheaper tomorrow, and that generally happens regularly. Um so yeah, I guess what are. What are the dangers of acquisition led marketing in your opinion?
Speaker 2:I mean, I love what you just described it, so it's so accurate a picture of what happens in a lot of these it is a lot. Funnily enough, what what's most frustrating for me is the types of brands that are doing this are actually the ones that have the highest propensity for repeat purchase, and oh, definitely you know, these are actually the things that you do buy over and over again, and I do feel that this approach is very damaging to customer loyalty and I think they all do it.
Speaker 2:They all do it like do it then it becomes not about loyalty, it becomes about convenience. You know, as soon as, if my if you're seeing that from my protein and they're annoying you bulk sends you a better offer, you're going to go to bulk because you're like well, fine, discounts all around, great, I'll go for the best discount I can get. And it stops being about the brand and it stops being about your relationship with the brand and it starts being about okay, fine, I will go for the best price that I can get. Then so.
Speaker 2:I think the problem with that is if you lose that preference, that brand preference, then you lose all the benefits that go with that. You lose the likelihood of someone leaving you a review. You lose the likelihood of someone referring you to a friend. You lose you lose the chance to really increase their customer lifetime value over time. You know it's. You don't see the benefit with the first purchase, you don't see the benefit with the second purchase. It's really once someone's making three, four or five purchases that you start to offset the cost of actually acquiring them. So it feels like a very dangerous approach to me.
Speaker 2:I think also, you just you annoy people. You know exactly, you're a prime example, you, you you're upset. You. You might have been loyal to any one of these brands, but you can see what they're doing and it's annoyed you.
Speaker 2:So I think it's the same with mobile phone providers, insurance companies, banks they all do the same thing they give their existing customers a worse deal than new customers and it annoys you as an existing customer and if you're annoyed, you're not feeling very, you're not feeling a lot of brand love. So I think, yeah, I think it's a very dangerous game to play and I also think it's unnecessary, because what you really want for these kinds of products is to be driving subscriptions. You know you want somebody to be just automatically signed up so that every time they run out of that protein it's being replaced, and it's being replaced at a price that they're really happy with. And if you can actually again, you can use things like subscriber tiers, where you you have a special tier for people who subscribe and they, if they get three boxes or three bags of protein, they get the fourth one free because they're subscribed.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, you can implement lots of things that ensure that you get multiple purchases without having to send those silly discounts yeah and that's a far more sustainable approach that's what I think, and I mean um that to my understanding, they do do subscription models, but but my thought process is well, why would I subscribe to a certain percentage off if I am confident I will get? I'll get a better discount at a certain time through the next month?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I'm locking myself into subscription for not the best deal yeah so I feel like for me anyway, I feel like these brands could do something to convert me as a customer and I'm sure I'm not alone in this to a subscription. Every month, I probably spend around about 100 pounds on supplements give or take and they are generally the same supplements every single month. They know what I'm going to buy, they know how much they're giving me and they know when I'm going to run out. If they can convince me that the subscription is going to be the best model for me, then I will do it, but they're. I think the problem they have is they. They can't do that, or they don't seem to try to do that at all.
Speaker 1:I've not had one piece of content from them or an email. I've not had anything that said james, we've noticed that you've spent x amount with us over the last six months. Actually, you've spent this, this and this. Did you know that if you subscribed with us, you would have saved yourself seven percent on what you've actually spent? Why didn't you subscribe with us for the next three months and you will give you this for free, or something like that as a good wheelchair show, cool. I'll be like yeah, do you know what?
Speaker 2:sign me up and then you know that again they can get into the realms of. If you're a subscriber, you'll be the first to try our new flavor yeah you know people I can't. There's a good example of that. I can't remember their name, um, but yeah, if you're a subscriber you get to try the new products before anybody else does you know. Then you start to think, okay, maybe I'll forego that, that slightly larger discount, because I'm getting more value from being a subscriber than I am from not that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, joey, as a as a top member, we'll chuck you in a free protein bar next time. This is our new flavor. Please give us your feedback, like those going back to that overall experience, like and I know they do do some of these things, but if they do it as well as we've just said, then they need to communicate that better, because I'm sure there's a big audience out there that are feeling the same frustration. In fact, everyone I know that buys protein feels the same way I do, because we vent about it regularly. Oh you, just, you know, you're just going to place an order with one of them on one day and then, literally the following day, you get an email from another one saying it's five percent extra off, plus this for free or whatever, and you're just like man, I just placed the order yesterday, do you? How do you know that?
Speaker 2:I just I don't think they need to erode their margins quite as much as they they do, and I don't believe it is future proof. Really no, it's not.
Speaker 1:They just lie like there's no way that the standard price of that type of protein was 91.99. I'm sorry, no one is ever going to pay that. You just put that as a price there. So then it sounds like you're reducing more off and and I mean that needs to be regulated, I guess. But that's but that's a different conversation entirely. But it's just like give me a price, give me your best price and sign up to a subscription, but make sure I know I'm getting the best price as a customer yeah, 100, and actually it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:Conversations I've had with friends around black friday recently are very similar to this conversation. Nobody believes that they're getting a great deal at black friday. They just think that actually prices were hiked a little bit before so that they could be dropped, and then they're not buying at the beginning of the the Black Friday sales because they believe they're going to be dropped another four or five times along the way.
Speaker 1:So I'm literally doing that at the minute.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, and I think I saw a headline actually today from which where they're calling brands out for doing this. You know they're calling brands out for actually these are not the best deals of the year at all, they're just being positioned that way and then a better one's going to come, and I just I think it's so frustrating for consumers yeah, it is definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean, we all like. We all like to feel like we've been able to to get a bargain, whether it's just one that we've stumbled upon by chance, or whether we'd be able to negotiate or whatever, but it's in our nature, right? So I think it's frustrating when we feel like we're being, uh, strung along and lied to to a certain extent yeah, yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2:It's not good for loyalty no, definitely not.
Speaker 1:I like the fact that it's starting to get called out, and that's one of the real good things I think with social media is it gives everyone the platform to do such things. You go back 20 years, you wouldn't. You might find you might be able to find out that brand's lying about something, but you can't communicate that to anyone outside of your friendship group. Now you can get it on twitter.
Speaker 2:Hashtag this at this and suddenly, suddenly it's gone viral and everyone knows yeah, I mean brands need to be very careful of that, because that is that's very real and it could do you a lot of damage very quickly in this day and age. So better just to not do anything that could be tweeted about.
Speaker 1:Well, they do say no such thing as bad press, but maybe there is Definitely for loyalty anyway. Brilliant, all right. Yeah, I think it's probably wrapped up there, fiona, thank you for joining me. Really really enjoyed that conversation. It's been great.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:So I hope you've all enjoyed it as well. Thank you for listening and I'll see you all next time.
