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The FODcast
In the FODcast (The Future of #DigitalCommerce) we explore the real career stories of the people who have made it to the very top of the sector and those who are working at the cutting edge of innovation and change right now. Listeners to the podcast gain insight into the journeys industry leaders have taken to be where they are today, the challenges they are facing now and their aims for the future.
The FODcast
Pioneering New Paths in Digital B2B with David Williams
The Future of B2B Digital Commerce: A Must-Listen Conversation 🎧
In the latest episode of The FODcast, we sit down with David Williams, Digital Director with over 20 years of experience in both B2B and B2C, to discuss the seismic shifts taking place in B2B digital commerce.
From the rise of digital natives leading businesses to the demand for seamless online solutions, David shares his insights into how AI and other technologies are driving change and making these solutions more accessible and cost-effective than ever before.
đź’ˇ Key Takeaways:
- How Gen AI is shaping B2B customer journeys with digital-first tools
- The role of AI in enhancing customer experiences without losing the human touch
- Strategies for B2B businesses transitioning from legacy systems to modern, customer-centric solutions
- Real-world examples from trailblazers like Oro, Sitecore, and Nibble
🎙️ Don’t miss out on this transformative discussion. Whether you’re in B2B or B2C, the lessons shared here are crucial for understanding where the market is heading.
#B2BCommerce #DigitalTransformation #EcommerceInnovation #AI #FutureOfWork
Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.
Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/
Welcome to the latest series of the Fodcast, where we bring you the latest insights into the future of digital commerce. In Season 6, we continue to interview some of the most respected professionals in the industry as we broaden the topics to cover what it takes to build a business within e-commerce, navigating through business change, as well as the future of technology within digital commerce. As we continue our journey to have one of the best podcasts within commerce, we ask you to like and share within your network if you enjoy our content. Hello and welcome back to the podcast the Future of All Things Digital Commerce. This is my first recording of 2025.
Speaker 1:We've moved office and the podcast studio is unfortunately non-existent at the minute, which explains a different background for those watching on YouTube. However, the show must go on. Anyway, today I'm pleased to welcome David Williams, an experienced B2B and B2C digital director, as we focus on digital transformation. Specifically within B2B, david is currently digital director for DCC Vital, a leading supplier of medical equipment and consumables. Welcome, david. Hi James, thanks for joining me, david. Let me hand it. How are you? Thanks for joining me, david. Let me hand it over to you for a slightly better introduction to yourself. There's nothing wrong with that, james, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean as you said. I mean it's just more of a background for me. You know I have nearly 20 years of B2C digital e-commerce experience from multiple brands, multiple verticals. Works in fashion mainly during that time and about four years ago I moved to DCC Vitar, which is a, as you said, medical supplies, distribution, medical devices business that's run out of Ireland and part of the DCC PLC group, and my role there has been kind of twofold really One is to drive the B2B e-commerce business and transform it and upgrade it from where it was at before and then obviously look at other digital transformation opportunities within that company.
Speaker 1:Nice, thank you, and obviously, like you said before, that obviously extensive background across a variety of retail retailers and what have you. So, yeah, I've been looking forward to having you on the show. David, see, our relationship goes back a little way. I guess we'll jump straight in. Why is the B2B market ripe for change?
Speaker 2:I think you know, I've been in it for four years now and I do say to people that it reminds me. Well. There are two things. First of all, it reminds me of where B2C was at probably 10 years ago internally and where our business is at and there is that need and desire for digital change. But I think the other things that are happening are more macro. So the rise of digital natives and their expectations increasingly, the personas we've looked at are always looking to do their business online more and more. It doesn't mean that it's purely online, but their expectations of that and their expecting will be to see type experiences within it and efforts. They don't always want to talk to a salesperson or a customer care or a finance person. There is an element of self-service and things there that we've been that they come up and been um expecting and there are more and more digital natures entering the workforce.
Speaker 2:Um, I think the other areas for me that that obviously I think we all know that gen I, um, is, is and the reduction and then and how that's going to revolutionize what's being done and the reduction in costs. And we only had to listen this last week about what's been happening with DeepLink and that to know that there's another revolution of change happening there potentially. So there will be an element there of that is allowing things which were once prohibitive to change. So I think that's another factor. I think within that context. I think that that's another factor.
Speaker 2:I think within that, within that context, I think the manufacturers of in B2B and the distributors of that product are both realizing the value of that and, I think, the need to to collaborate more.
Speaker 2:So I think, as as manufacturers and distributors get more digitally mature, they'll look at digital ways of working more, rather than, hey, we'll send you a catalog and and etc. And very much in the way I would say fmcg has worked for a few years. Um, and then I think the other thing that's happening I've I've seen a lot more is having having been started going to, you know, technology events and and expos, etc. I've seen a shift in the technology vendors that are out there realizing that their b2c technologies that they have there probably there's an opportunity for them to look into to b2b. So I think all these things mixing together just says to me that there's there's there's definitely a sea change happening at some point in b2b in the next. I mean more than it's been. And it's not to say there aren't some players out there who are really sophisticated, but I think this is a more holistic view for me okay when you touch on some.
Speaker 1:Really there we go yeah, you touched upon some interesting points there and I think it'd be interesting to to dive into a couple of them in a little bit more detail, particularly the first one around the the rise of digital natives and their expectations. Uh, it does seem as though that, um, a lot of b2b organizations do still run on very legacy uh technology and processes. I've heard stories of many businesses that still use pen and paper for orders and travel to do stock takes um with their pen and paper, for example, example which, as someone myself, I think sounds crazy. I'm nearing late 40s and I guess when you've got the younger generation, the mid-20s, that's just going to be insane for them, right? I mean, they want to do it on their mobile phone. So it's really surprised me as to how slow some of these companies have been at adapting to the modern technology per se. I mean, mean, what's your reason for what, when? What do you think that might be?
Speaker 2:I think um, I, I, I think it's that, yeah, that's, it's quite, it's quite interesting, isn't it? Because there is that element there. I think there's always that element of you need, you need to have change come from the top. So there needs to be that mandate that actually this is an opportunity for us. There's obviously, obviously, then there is the that. So that's the key thing, I think, is, ultimately, do you have, do you have, a leadership that believes in that or still believes that the personal relationships and doing it, being being with a sales team, being with you know, you know, being with their customers is the right thing to do, but it's, it's becoming increasingly inefficient. I think. I think that's one. I think that's kind of one thing.
Speaker 2:The other thing is that, in type of investment that you do in digital is, I always think I know everyone thinks it's crazy to measure.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes it's quite hard there's a leap of faith there that I think you need to have to take it, but again it feels. And also then there's obviously channel, conflict and change management elements to this, because you've got a business that runs a certain way. You've got to think about how you're. You know, you've got a business that runs a certain way you you've got to. You've got to think about how you're going to change, manage it and not see it as a channel conflict and see it how it will enable you to do better things and and not do that. That's why I think general is actually people are looking at, but they, even if they're looking at that from a cost reduction, process automation side of things, that's, that's a good start, but I think that's probably where it's been at. But, um, I think now I think if there are companies who are still thinking that way, they're going to be left behind because their competitors are not, are not going to sit around yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean, for me, it seems as though they're probably already a bit late for the table with some of this um, and if it's not something that's on the agenda now, then then they're certainly going to be falling behind some of their competitors that are going to be far quicker moving and far more agile when it comes to picking up on this.
Speaker 2:And their customers are going to expect it more as well. Not all the customers want to do pen and paper either. The customers are expecting, as well as they're expecting, better digital experiences, not just the internal teams. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I guess that's a great point. I mean, I focused on the internal teams, but, yeah, their customers will also be digital natives. I'd say the a large proportion of the workforce these days are digital natives, um, or, if not digital natives, they're certainly uh, very, uh, very strong from a digital uh background. Uh, given, a lot of this now isn't new. So if you're not, if that isn't your primary channel, then I think you're certainly something that's going to be be struggling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely okay, and the other very quick aside, james, I was saying before you know, in school at the moment, my son, my, my 14, sorry, my 13 year old, 14 year, 13 year old son, he's been learning about geni, the ethics of it, the use of it in class and stuff. So you're thinking all these people in 10 years time are going to be in your workforce?
Speaker 1:if you're, if you're not considering how they're going to interact with you, you know they'll know nothing else it's funny you mentioned that you know about had a few conversations over the last three or four months with people similar to yourself and their children who are using chat, gpt and what have you in everyday life.
Speaker 1:They're all under 16 and they're using it far more than someone like myself is and I feel like I use it quite a lot, but they're using it for all kinds of things. One of them made a business using it. So I mean, we're getting very clued up very quickly with with gen I and uh, the case studies with gen I are just evolving every single day as well. Um, so, yeah, I think it going back to kind of what we've said, if that isn't something that's on your radar, whether that be for uh cost reduction and efficiencies or anything else, and then it's certainly going to fall away pretty quickly. Yeah, um, and and then you mentioned some of the tech players as they look to to realize challenges in b2b. Obviously there's been a huge amount of uh innovation within technology uh over the last got 10 years, particularly last five years. Are there any b2b players that you think are worth keeping an eye on for for b2b organizations? Oh, my goodness, throw that one on me.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I mean, I think that I mean, obviously there are b2b e-commerce platforms, I think I think obviously they're the ones who are who are really thinking ahead of the game there. I quite like what they're doing. Um, some of them, like oro, very impressed with what they're offering.
Speaker 2:Um I think those that are just much more flexible, are strong there. I think. Um, if I can think of vendors who were more B2B and into B2B, I think the content management system types of vendors are the ones I think, because Gen R really lends itself to it. So I was very impressed with this into what Sitecore were doing with I'm trying to remember who it was now, I think it was a travel company in the B2B space and just utilising it to accelerate the generation of content and those sorts of things. But they were looking at it from both perspectives. So I think they're in a good position because content is king and content is king wherever you have it. I think I think those are the ones that I find really interesting. And then you know, I think there are other smaller technologies. I quite like what nibble are doing with their ai negotiation tool, which is a real b2b and b2c. But I think b2b is a really interesting um technology that that allows you to have conversations and negotiate within parameters with with there. So again, it goes back to the digital native who doesn't necessarily want to phone in and gets you the sale, I think.
Speaker 2:And the other areas for me I find quite interesting. I don't know it's pretty dry for other people. But I think one of the things with B2B is it's so much more involved from a direct customer relationship, from a finance perspective. So when you're seeing some of these Crea and Amon do, these B2B payment providers who are just doing a klana and managing your credit and settlements and doing credit limits and taking that risk and then allowing you to get a customer on board very quickly, is really interesting as well. So I think it's all going there. Then I think you'll start seeing some of the other technologies.
Speaker 2:I think the one areas I'm always surprised isn't cost over more. It's probably around the CDP, cxp. So the email marketing side of things. I've seen a lot of vendors out there who is very much. They'll come in and present you a hey, here's what our tool does. It's welcome program for you know, for a fashion you know like this is B2B, this is. You need to really think about your decks here. You need to think about how you know if you want to get into B2B. You've got to think about the complexity of that interaction, which I know we'll talk about later. Do you feel that could be an area to watch? I think there's a lot of opportunity there for technology companies to, if they do it right to to do it. So I think they need to, yeah, I think they need to engage. They're probably to engage their networks of people who've been in b2c or b2b, um, just to think about how they, how they, how they present themselves watch this space.
Speaker 1:I'm certainly familiar with the Nibble software. Obviously, rosie was on the show a little while back now.
Speaker 2:Yes, she was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I do believe we will see that rolled out far more, both B2B and B2C. It seems a no brainer for a lot of organizations, particularly ones like maybe Sky and your broadband and what have you where we know it's very much a haggle every 12 months to try Sky and your broadband and what have you where we know it's very much a haggle every 12 months to try and reduce your costs and what have you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's interesting because you see some other small technologies in the Shopify apps and there's one called Applo, which is conversational commerce at the product page. I mean, things like that are crying out. They're crying out to be part of that b2b e-commerce world because there's a lot of questions and a lot of information needed, I think sometimes in a business sense, for for products that you buy online, the b2b commerce environment, and I just think that's a huge opportunity. Conversational commerce is one of my predictions for this year. I think it's really important.
Speaker 1:I think I might have read that actually in your in one of your blogs you put together a few weeks ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:All right, well, so yeah, there we go, but then let's move. Let's move on to the similarities between B2B and B2C transformations, david.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I think between b2b and b2c transformations. Uh, david, yeah, I think I think. Looking at, well, I think not transformations, but from the experiences, I think, um, I think the similarities are. For me is the the overall journeys are very similar from a website perspective. Now, I know there's talks now of with again with gen ai and things, that you're going to have a different one, but you're not going to go to a home page and search and merchandise. You might have a conversation on, on, on, you know, on gemini or wherever, or chat bpt, and then go deep, deep into a page and then you know what you want and then it works that way using that.
Speaker 2:But I think generally the awareness to basket process currently is relatively similar for a lot of people. So, being visible in google being physical than being being physical in in business areas and awareness is the same. You just need to be there. You need to be there at the right time. You need to be retargeted that you come on the website. The information, the value proposition, everything there's got to be there. Your search and merchandising has got to be tip top. You've got to try and get customers to log in. It's the same thing product information, etc. All all the same thing. You're looking at basket building, people look for price, people look for promotions. They look for an ease of getting everything they want quickly and into a basket. So I think that's very similar at the journey thing of what you do.
Speaker 2:Again, digital natives and everything we do we that b2c experience in there is to me is is the same and if you don't have the right search results, then it's the same as a website. You know, if you don't find the right search result on the b2b website, um the other. The other similarity for me, similarities for me are around around when, when information is needed about a product you know, um, you, you need that, you need that information. Now in b2c. That that I obviously, if you're buying a fridge or buying something like that, you're going to have questions there. There'll be user-generated content, there'll probably be a chatbot et cetera, all those sorts of things there to try and give you. There'll be a compare tool and that sort of thing. If I think more of like a white goods, consumer goods thing and similar in B2Bb. You need that as well. You all have questions. If you're buying an important piece of important product for your business, that has to have specific functions and you need it quickly and you need all these things.
Speaker 2:You need to be able to get the information you need and be able to interact with questions, not the right point, um, um, and I think I mean those from the journey point of view, and then also the other thing I'm kind of noticing. More is is from the types of businesses and channels and their interactions is relatively similar, because so. So the needs you know.
Speaker 2:So if you're a, you know you've got a manufacturer. You've got a manufacturer who normally uses distributors to sell. So that's similar to a I'll brand, you know, arc selling through john lewis. You still want to sell through those places because, ultimately, customers want to get everything in one go, um, and you'll use distribution channels to do that um. But equally, the brands will also sometimes sell direct. So there's that, that dc manufacturer element of what that is versus that. I think that is the same. And then, obviously, the channels that people are using. I think mobile is probably used much more in B2C, but it's becoming increasingly important in B2B too. I think we see a higher amount of traffic, of browsing traffic on mobile, which says to me that people are looking at things on their phone. Maybe they're going in a stock room, maybe they're going, as you said, pen and paper stock room. They might be going in there and seeing what they need and building a basket on mobile and then going finishing off the transaction on a desktop.
Speaker 1:So I think that element of knowing, of knowing those things is, is relatively similar um yeah, yeah, I think, um, no, I guess that last point is going back to kind of what we discussed at the start and just making sure the business is is set up to engage and to assist, but whether the internal staff or the customers um, in the most appropriate way possible and reality is right now that's probably going to be via a mobile or possibly a tablet, whether that be via a mobile friendly website or an app, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:I think it's really that's really important yeah, I think the other example of that is obviously then in the other thing. Example of that would be in retail. You know that increasing on your channel experience of keeping the sales in. You know, doing the sales in the store through for an ipad or an app with with a customer is no different to what eventually a salesperson going into a B2B customer will want to do with them, which is build a basket, build a quote, negotiate, put those things you know, get an order through. It's very similar to the clienteling I guess the clienteling you would call in retail versus the you know more of a traditional sales engagement in B2B.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my head. I find that really useful in retail as well. When someone's there with an ipad and they quickly search the stock or whatever, you can then in some place, in some cases, actually make the payment through the ipad as well, so they can effectively remove the need for the till and have five or six of their sales assistants being uh, being able to manage the full process. And if you could replicate that in b2b and where your, your sales assistants or your account managers or whoever might be heading out to the site doing all of the order on an app on the ipad and processing it and what have you, then that certainly certainly helps as well as to doing that, making notes and having to go back and put it onto a desktop or pen and paper and fax it across or whatever it might be but brings it back to that point I said about change management, because you you have to get over that channel conflict thing in retail.
Speaker 2:It's like if you take that sale on that ipad, you will get commission or be recognized for that sale, even though the fulfillment might end up being through the website or through hey, we haven't got this installed, we can ship it from our other store or we can ship it from our warehouse, or I can pre-order this for you and get it here. They need to know that, and the same with same with b2b sales agent. They need to know that that probably that ipad is tracking that their sales came through that even if it's, even if it's maybe going through, looks like it's coming through a different channel. So it's definitely a change management element to all these things. And there are, you know there's a lot of work that sometimes goes and goes in the background of these things to get them working in an operational perspective definitely.
Speaker 1:I find change management really interesting because, from almost all the conversations that I have, change management in some form is is key to any form of transformation. Um, and actually making sure you communicate the right message enough times to all of the employees throughout the transformation is absolutely fundamental to success, whether it be b2b, b2c, whatever. Um, getting that message across and getting everyone bought into the reasons behind why you're doing it and ensuring they're doing they're, they're following the appropriate steps to do it correctly, it's such an important and what seems to be undervalued aspect of transfer, of transformations why you need that buying from the top, to filter it down, that we're doing this and it's good for the business and will make you make you more efficient.
Speaker 1:Yeah I feel like it's easier said than done, though. Right, maybe you get the buy-in, but then you don't get the budget or whatever. But the feeling I get is that not enough organisations invest enough in change management anyway, we know humans are fundamentally built wired to not like change.
Speaker 2:So it's uncomfortable sometimes and it's just. You have to try and make people feel uncomfortable for a bit before they feel more comfortable again.
Speaker 1:That is a very fair point. Yeah, um, you pick up bad habits, right, and you just become things become second nature. So, if you've been doing something for five years, then actually, uh, if you're gonna have to change the process in which you do, that's the very same thing, then, um, yeah, it's not something you're going to pick up overnight. You're going to need to be encouraged and, uh, and you're going to guide it on it over a period of time until that then becomes second nature yeah agreed, um, cool.
Speaker 1:So we spoke about some of the similarities between b2c and b2b, um, so there are a lot of differences as well. So, in your opinion, what are the differences between the two?
Speaker 2:um, I, I, I. Well, I think there are a few. I always keep giving a few examples. I think the first thing for me is obviously B2C digital experience. There's a lot there about it's more about function in B2B than it is about inspiration. So if you're that personal element and if you use the old it's Bain and Company's value pyramid, which I'm sure people who do marketing know but don't marketing know about the old thing is bain and company's value pyramid, which I'm sure people do marketing know but don't want to know about you know there's a.
Speaker 2:The base level is functional value of something and it builds up to emotional value, life changing and then social impact. So it's very about how does this, why buy, inspire me and and and how does it change my life and how does it make me feel better, and that consumer element of inspiration, completely different in in business, you're doing a job. It's more about the functional value and really about will it save me time? Will I get a good deal? Will you deliver it when I need it? Have I got the right thing? Are you selling me other things that I might need in this and giving me a good service? It's all about service, really important.
Speaker 2:I guess that's important in both, but it could be, you know, if you're not delivering something, a manufacturing part, because they're building something for someone and it's and you're delaying production, that that causes problems for from a business perspective, and then the emotional value of that really in this b2b is it's just reduction of anxiety and and making sure I can do makes me feel better, I can do my job more efficiently, but you're not going into that world of inspiration. So I think that's the really big difference to me. So there's a lot more invested in my. I believe in B2C marketing is all about inspiration and that element of trying to keep people inspired. I think the other thing is the other difference is that that the extra level of of and actually there are probably two levels customers, customers versus the users in the business. So your users on your website are personal people personal people, but they're individuals but, they are representing a company and they could be representing the company at different levels.
Speaker 2:So they could just be somebody buys. It could be a procurement manager in a corporate business. It could be someone who's going in to check all the invoices. There could be an approval process there. There could be, there are, there are all different types of personas who are part of the customers that use your platform. So you need to think of that and that you don't get in B2C business to consumer. It's your one customer, your one person. It's just a little bit easier. So managing that could be quite complex.
Speaker 2:And then I think the other thing for me is which I really noticed is the under the hood, the complexities once you're logged in. So you've obviously got the individual pricing, the personalized pricing that's there is, at a different level, the number of users that might be within, as I just mentioned, how your payments are. You know payments on credit, credit terms, settlement times. You know paying invoices versus. You know having a trade account versus a cash account. It's there's a lot of a lot of interaction with credit control and and and things there that are just there's an approvals and portals and bulk ordering and and and there's just a lot more complexity underneath the hood there. Um, that, I think, is there and and often in distribution, just that repeat purchase element to it, probably a bit similar to a grocery one in groceries in, or maybe a, maybe a, um, you know, a juicers or something where you might go back and buy things quite regularly. But, um, that, that to me, that level of complexity underneath the hood is. It was a real eye-opener.
Speaker 1:So there we go, yeah, I mean often I'm told about the complexity um from like pricing and payments and what have you. Obviously you can have thousands of customers and they each buy different amount of units, from hundreds to millions, and the more units you buy, the different price points you have that kind of stuff. So I get that's like a really complex piece um of uh, of this of the setup. But I guess if we look at the functional element and uh, to me that kind of makes it a little bit easier because, um, you're not having to sell emotionally like a lot of brands will do. So what's important to a business is going to be the cost, um and the quality, basically. So I guess you don't have to focus on the high level marketing and it's more just about making sure that those key points are there I I agree, but I think as you go deeper down the funnel, I think you know it becomes.
Speaker 2:I think I think it's the, it's the informational element, the content that you have there. Is that the content? If you're, if you're, if you're selling the specifications, I mean the importance of a PIM, a proper PIM, if you're in distribution and using it properly and thinking about how are you, you know, how do you get that information, rich information, there and then allow them to contact people and ask questions about it? It's just that's really, really important, um, I think too. So there's it's not necessarily inspiration, but it's, it's is this product going to do the job that I want it to? I'm not going to buy something that I've got to return or get a credit on, or, or, etc. Etc. So there's a lot, you know there's.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more richness needed, um, around, I think, which is quite important. So the richness is probably at a product level and maybe some of the content level around learnings about the products, et cetera, than obviously out there going hey, you know there's no, well, there is TikTok. Actually, tiktok is huge to me, but it's, you know, there's not a lot of the you know, that social media, micro-influencer sort of thing going on. From a content perspective, it's much more. Yeah, it is drier, but it's really important, and I think it's important to find ways to use the experience you have internally. I think that's the next step for me of where I can help is how I think it's still quite siloed. I think that information can help influence, influence purchasing decisions. Um, how do you harness that in the digital world?
Speaker 1:is, is could be much more important yeah, well, I mean, it certainly seems like the the, the importance of a good pym is something that's really going to be uh key to to this regardless, and I mean that's the same with b2c, right, it's getting that information in front of your customers, regardless of their people or companies, is key and there's another level to that as well.
Speaker 2:I was talking. You know it was like we said. Obviously I just see the tile. You know it sells. You know it has a number of brands. There are websites. I was just the example of like you know your nitrile gloves that you use there's, there's what's used for what do you? That is a glove and it's got properties and it is it's blue and it's like like whatever. It might be like nitrile or whatever, and it's sizes or whatever the same. But if you're selling it to a how you're selling that to a first response ambulance and police service, that product is very different to how you sell it to a gp surgery, because they're using it for different things. So it's the usage of of the products, the relevance of it to that individual industry. So you could be selling that product for different use cases in various places, whereas you know if you're selling a fridge, you know B2C, you're selling fridge, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It's just the element there of there's another level of the importance of getting that product information right to the right customer is really key.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, and yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but I guess that obviously explains why there's been a lot of innovation within that kind of PIM area over the last couple of years, and I think we'll continue to see it be seen as one of the key areas of a digital transformation is having a really good pin um, obviously amongst a few other areas as well. Right, so so cool. So look, you've, um. You've been through a number of transformations, um, in your career to date. I mean, what are some of your key previous learnings that you, you can share?
Speaker 2:um, okay, I kind of related to it earlier. I think the first thing is leadership buy-in, stakeholder management, ceo. It needs to be mandated from above and supported if you're going to do additional transformation, because it is going to affect everybody and you need to have everybody on board and if everyone isn't on board.
Speaker 2:I'd have warning signs because if there is resistance, your job is especially at a director level or a leadership level is to go and understand and try and unpick where those issues are. But you'd need that leadership thing. It's really important if it's not there and mandated. Now you're accountable for delivery, but you need to have that element the steering group. That involves people. It's not siloed Really important.
Speaker 1:I saw that note. Have you been in an environment where actually you didn't have the full buy-in or you had it, but then very quickly maybe it became quite tough and some of that buy-in dropped out quite early, which presented you challenges?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's happened a few times, but I've seen it in a number of places. I think it's just sometimes a bit of digital maturity and I think sometimes actually that element of it where it can work first is you can look at it of where it can be. Cost efficiencies as much as revenue driving is probably an option where you can show those. I think you should show both. Yeah, I have seen that in places.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing I said is, you know, working with other parts of the business. It's just there's a lot of it is about trying to. Every time is to get by, but you have to listen, listen to and understand what's there. If you go in and start going right, digital is the way you're going to hit resistance, the things we said all the way through. You know you're going to to have. You might have some change. How is it? And think about going in, how would? How will it benefit me, how will it benefit my customer? Um, will it drive more sales? Will it drive? Will it reduce costs? And think about how does it? Part of the business, and I think, over time, you kind of know where those, those areas are and where resistance might be. Um, I think, um, I think, uh, a couple of other things. I think, well, actually within that, I think is, and then within that, actually on that same thing, is, if you can deliver some quick wins that show quick improvements, you'll get more buy-in. Yeah, so I think, if you do, don't, I guess I say don't try and boil the ocean in one go, just try. And, you know, get a couple of, get a couple of quick wins in there. Look, if we do this, this will save, this will be better for your customers and save your time here. Uh, on doing this, whether it's even even if it's something around a good example, I'd use this we had a situation where password management, because of my going, goes back to my point of complexity of business multiple accounts, you know, making it was.
Speaker 2:They were getting so okay and they were a bit resistant oh, web, you're causing these issues. I said, well, why don't we look at doing some digital, do some continuous improvement, improve that password renewable process and make it easy for customers to understand what they need to do and etc. Etc. And then it was probably about three, four days work, get it done, get it tested, present it, present it back to the customer care team. And they were like oh my God, we're getting 85% less calls. So that's a smaller example of a quick win. You can go in and do something.
Speaker 1:It's just a substantial result.
Speaker 2:Do something to get buy-in. I think the other thing for me is don't, I said, boil the ocean, but I think sweat your assets that you do go for if you're doing a transformation and getting a new platform, I think, and you're getting a few new techs in there, just make sure you're sweating that asset. You've chosen the right one. Do a full RFP. More important, there is a risk at the moment with Composable and Headless, that you just go hey, I'm going to put this in here and put this in here and it's so easy which you and I know it isn't, because you need to be digitally mature to do it and then you don't know you're not using your technologies of all the, all the functions of them. You've got overlap of what they do. Hey, I've got an ai personalization recommendation engine, oh, but I've got an ai thing, but which one is driving the value? And how are you tracking it? I think you just got it when you, if you've got a good platform, if you're going that route, you sweat that platform, every element of it that you can, before you think about getting another, another platform. I've seen it, I've seen it a number of times before. That's um, that's happened. You know, um, and I think you just need to keep, just really think about your, your tech stack and what.
Speaker 2:Where does that thing add value? And I think, sometimes, incrementally, it's quite good you add one thing in. If it makes a change, you probably know that it's not the difference. And then, obviously, then I guess the other thing is about building value cases. When you talk upwards, when you're building up those values, when you're talking upwards, you're talking the language that they understand and and try and relate what you're doing, what you want to do, to what business needs and what, what problems you're solving, but do it in a way that's, that's not sounding like you're just going to do just boy with toys there's, you know, that's really important that you can get that to get the buy-in yes, I guess some some really really good things, some good points there, uh, david, and I mean particularly two that stand out.
Speaker 1:Uh, firstly is uh, fail fast, fail quick, something I find really important, particularly when you go through big change. You can't just do a big bang and expect it to all work okay. You need to fail fast and fail quick and and and learn and adapt and as you go, do you know what I mean? Um, and then the second one, around the technology. I think that's a really great point. We've both probably seen it over the years where companies buy us new technologies and, as you said, they don't quite understand how to use them properly, and some do the same. In fact, I hear of businesses that have two different pieces of technology that have the same functionality and they've just been bought without actually working out to use them properly. So it's crazy how much money, I I believe, gets weighted on on tech that doesn't get utilized. Um, so, uh, brill, thank you. Um, right, let's uh, yeah, let's look to wrap this up then. So the final question I have is what are your three tips for b2b transformation, coming from a b2c background?
Speaker 2:um, I think, um, I think the first thing I guess is is probably relate, relating, relating the similarities and understanding the differences. So you know, if you're, if you're coming in for b2c, you you have to, I guess initially you have, you have to listen. I think all the things I've talked about before. You have to listen to understand the business and understand those differences there and and understand what drives those parts of the business in, in, in, um, in what they do, and understand the prices. Don't go in there with a solution, just go in there and understand it. I think this is really important, um. The other thing is, within that you're the change management. Don't ever underestimate that. And the difficulty with that is is um can be, can be quite tough. So you need to think about, about how, how you do that um. And then going back into the other thing, I think the final thing for me is probably going back to where the similarities are is you'll know, you'll know pretty well if I said that you know from the, from the awareness, the basket element to it, of the similarities there. If you've got some good quick wins that you've known things you know around, that you can say that these are the examples of things I did in my bc world that that that will work here and get that and get some quick wits in, quick wins in around those sorts of things, you'll, you'll get by more quickly, I think, and that's that's. That's that's the thing for me is so to take the, you know, take those, take that, maybe get one technology, that's that's done.
Speaker 2:I think I think an example where um, uh, with vital, we did is getting in a company, actually a good one, called Webio, do B2B personalisation based on company IP addresses. Great technology, great company, just really just that way of like well, I can talk, if I know you're coming from a nhs practice in in wales, I can, I can target you with that message to say hey there, etc. And then give you content that's relevant to you and just that. That's an example of something which is okay. It's not specifically, you know, it's not groundbreaking, but just if that's not there, there's something not there that you can go in and make a change with something really quickly, like that, um, and show and show the upside from it, um, and especially visually, um, until we see what the customers see, it can be a really, really good value thing to add. So, just again, don't try and do everything, don't bore the ocean. Try and find one thing that can um, that can help get people inside I'm not saying that everyone's resistant, by the way, it's just that you it's.
Speaker 2:As I said back to the beginning. You know a lot of businesses are still a bit far behind on that digital side of things. So I'm used to doing business a certain way. You just need to bring them onto the journey yeah, unless I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean not everyone's like fully resistant, but I guess to a certain extent everyone has a level of resistance to change. Some are very open to it, others are really close to it and I think you're, depending on the organization that you're in or that you join. Um will depend on kind of how you would approach these things and whether or not you go for something really small, like a personalized email outreach campaign if they're not doing it, or something slightly larger I think I mean.
Speaker 2:Other examples are you know, obviously, everyone. You know if you're in a customer care or sales team, you worry about um. You know you worry about chatbots and hey, I'll take away my, which it isn't actually most. Most companies, if they really want to do it, will say you're spending 55 of your time doing admin and doing all these things here and answering the same old questions or doing admin.
Speaker 2:What if we did this and then you're in an 80 20 bur's law situation where you're doing 20% of your time doing admin, 8% of your time selling or doing customer care or customer outreach or in finance, you're reducing the time they're spending chasing invoices or doing something in that B2B portal world I was talking about. If you can make some changes there, getting people on direct debit. We did that recently. It's been really successful Just using very simple direct debit signup tool just to get people online, and I think it's just that that element of of those small things that there isn't, there isn't a fear here. This, this could be transformative for you and actually make make, give you high job satisfaction and keep your customers happier do you say getting people on the direct debit?
Speaker 1:is that not something that's just been standard now for tens of years?
Speaker 2:no, not always, no, no no, no businesses. No, I think it's, it's, it's. But yeah, of course there's direct debits, but I mean, you know I'd there's a lot of businesses that still do it by right. We'll send you a direct wet. We need a wet signature and we need yeah because that's what we've always done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I need that. You've got, there, are, there are tools out there that you can. You can do it online. Now you can do that. You can, if you, if you can, you know, you know, just maybe try and integrate a DocuSign into your journeys rather than having to send. You know, that element of customers, if they're coming up, they're onboarding, you know, just getting them, making it as easy for them to onboard as possible, I think, is really that really is a time saver, um for businesses it can be. It can be a very long process to go and get a trade account set up, um, and there are there are ways to improve it, you know. But if you're taking that away from someone, they're not having to send off and then come back and do everything manually on them. You know, with a direct, with the sort code and account written on a piece of paper and then having to get signatures and it's. There are lots of ways you can do improvements there, I think, using digital definitely yeah and joe, what are?
Speaker 1:that leads me on to a little uh story, off topic slightly. We, we signed up a german customer a couple of years ago now and, uh, they actually sent us the t, the, the t's and c's to sign manually with our hand and then send it back. And uh, the whole process took about three weeks when actually it could have been done online in about five minutes. And it was crazy. And they, they, they refused to let us scan it and sign it and send it back digitally. We had to send back the hard copies and I was just like, wow, it might have been a lot of naivety from my side, but I mean, we've been using digital signatures now for, like I don't know, five years, maybe even longer, I can't remember. So there's obviously a lot of businesses out there that don't, and it just amazes me that something so easy to and so, that can save so much time, is not being adopted by by so many companies but building it into this there's there's the b2b element, where you're doing it through emails and hey, we can.
Speaker 2:You know personal one-to-one relationships. But giving that again goes back to that digital native thing. You know they're thinking well, if I'm going to sign up, I can just I'd rather just do it online and go through this and then do a docusign and do do. They'd rather do it all there, almost a self-service maybe sometimes. So I think it's that's where it's going to go yeah, but also sustainability, if you get your customer set up two earlier. You've got two more weeks of your customer being able to buy from you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, exactly, and you've obviously got that. But you've also got the sustainability factor as well, right? I mean, some of these documents are tens of pages long. You're sending that to all of your customers then obviously that's not too good for the environment. So I mean lots of reasons why something like that should be implemented in all businesses.
Speaker 2:I can't see why you would just accept the hazard feature only in this day and age, but yeah, and I think actually interestingly there now and it goes back to that digital native and the tools you can use. You know, customer journey mapping is so much easier now To do that, or customer journey mapping or process journey mapping using Miro and various other tools. It's quite interactive and, dare I say, fun for to sit there and go through here's your current process and just map it on boards with. You know you don't have to do post-its anymore, it can be done in Miro and go through and look at that and then look at where those improvements can be. There's, there's there's lots of opportunity there and I think it's a you know that's. There's a lot more of that going to be going on, I think, but we've introduced that. It's really helped. Just go sugar that process is, if we just do that, one thing that's going to save us X hours customer, four days, blah, blah, blah, and sometimes it's as much as a few days work.
Speaker 1:So that's the joy of continuous improvements so definitely yes, I mean, I will admit, we do still use post-its when it comes to our weekly meetings, so maybe I'll check out mirror. Was it mirror? You said?
Speaker 2:miro m-i-r-o okay really good tool. Okay, put it in your cost next to the bottom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's it well, I think, uh, I think that's probably it for today then. David, thank you very much for joining me. That's fine. Thanks, james, covered a lot and, yeah, I hope all your listeners enjoyed it as well. I mean, the B2B industry and the opportunity within it, shall I say, continues to be a hot topic at the minute. It comes up in a lot of conversations. At the minute it comes up in a lot of conversations, so hopefully today's show has come at a good time to those either in it or interested in the sector. Um, if you enjoyed it, please do like and share across your networks and I'll see you all next time. Thank you, thanks.
