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The FODcast
In the FODcast (The Future of #DigitalCommerce) we explore the real career stories of the people who have made it to the very top of the sector and those who are working at the cutting edge of innovation and change right now. Listeners to the podcast gain insight into the journeys industry leaders have taken to be where they are today, the challenges they are facing now and their aims for the future.
The FODcast
Unpacking DE&I: Impact on Digital Commerce Today with Jasmin Guthmann
The Power of DE&I in Digital Commerce: A Conversation You Can’t Miss 🎧
In the latest episode of The FODcast, we sit down with Jasmin Guthmann, Vice President of the MACH Alliance, to explore the vital role of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DE&I) in shaping the future of digital commerce. As businesses navigate rapid transformation, Jasmin highlights why DE&I is more than a buzzword—it’s a strategic advantage.
From the impact of unconscious bias in hiring to the worrying rollback of diversity initiatives, Jasmin shares candid insights into the current state of the industry and what’s at stake if progress stalls. She also dives into how diverse teams fuel innovation, boost morale, and drive stronger business outcomes.
💡 Key Takeaways:
- Why DE&I is essential for business growth, not just a compliance tick-box
- The hidden cost of unconscious bias in recruitment and leadership
- Practical ways businesses can create inclusive environments that empower all employees
- How community involvement and mentorship programmes are shaping the next generation of diverse talent
🎙️ This isn’t just a conversation—it’s a wake-up call. Whether you’re a business leader, an employee, or an advocate for change, this episode delivers thought-provoking insights that will challenge perspectives and no doubt spark reflection.
#DiversityInTech #DigitalCommerce #InclusionMatters #Leadership #FutureOfWork
Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.
Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/
Welcome to the latest series of the podcast where we bring you the latest insights into the future of digital commerce. In season six, we continue to interview some of the most respected professionals in the industry as we broaden the topics to cover what it takes to build a business within e-commerce, navigating through business change, as well as the future of technology within digital commerce. As we continue our journey to have one of the best podcasts within commerce, we ask you to like and share within your network if you enjoy our content. Hello and welcome back to the podcast the Future of All Things Digital Commerce. I'm excited for today's episode as I welcome Jasmin Guthmann, VP of MACH Alliance, as we talk about a very important topic diversity, equity and inclusion within digital commerce. Lovely to have you on the show, Jasmin.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. James, Appreciate being here.
Speaker 1:So DE&I is Jasmin is is hugely passionate about, and rightly so, given some of the chats we've had recently. It's also an area I felt strongly about, having run a business for 10 years. Today's going to be a good one. Let's jump straight in with the current status of DE&I in digital commerce. So, Jasmin, what are your thoughts on the current status of the workforce?
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, what a mess right.
Speaker 2:Some way to start eh yeah, but I mean, let's face it, that's the reality out there. Right, it's a very, very messy place to be right now, but we're here to help everybody understand what everybody can do individually. But the technology industry per se, even broader in digital commerce, sadly has become the poster child for rolling back diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives DEI initiatives for short and I'm afraid that attitude is seeping out fast to other B2B sectors, despite data that shows proves that businesses improve the more diverse their workforces are, and then it actually has a very positive impact on the bottom line. Now, how crazy is that? You have data that proves that the more diverse your workforce is, the better you're off. But here we are watching the space somewhat deteriorate.
Speaker 2:I could, I think you could say and thankfully, it's not everybody right, so let's frame that back in. It's not everybody right, so let's frame that back in. It's not as horrible as it sounds. There are a few companies who, due to the shifting political situations and to certain pressures that are being put on a business, almost have no choice but to say what they're currently saying. I'm sure at least it feels that way to them, and there's plenty of smart people inside those enterprises and there's an equal amount of businesses like the Muck Alliance, thankfully who are doing the opposite, who are standing their ground and who are doubling down on their diversity, equity and inclusion efforts because they still believe that it is the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:Let's look at some numbers, because I think that's where my heart is also a lot in these situations. Unfortunately, it seems like rational data is no longer in such a high demand. A lot of things are very emotional, but if you were to look at the data and this is a year-long ongoing study by McKinsey, started in 2019, has had several additions. The latest is from 2023. One of those numbers is that executive teams that are more diverse are 36% more likely to outperform on profitability. So we're not talking about a vanity metric that is nice to have and feels good and you can claim on your employer branding that you're doing something for diversity. No, it actually hits your bottom line in cash flow. Diverse companies earn 2.5 times higher cash flow per employee.
Speaker 1:It's huge, it's huge right.
Speaker 2:Now, if you're a business owner, you are a business owner. Why would you not want your teams to be more diverse then?
Speaker 1:It's hard to argue against that right. Want your teams to be more diverse, then it's hard to argue against that right, particularly for me and I'm looking at it from a personal uh situation where our team does have a very diverse uh business and leadership team. In fact it's 50 50 uh from a from a leadership team perspective, um, and previously it has actually been outweighed uh to male, despite the two directors both being male. So we both see great value in having a diverse team and a diverse leadership team, obviously not just male and female, but further afield as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, well done that you have assembled that team in that kind of fashion. What's your experience with that? What makes it better?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there's a lot that make it makes a lot better for me personally. I think the the two, uh, the two biggest areas that I can reflect back on is one is the different, uh approach, different insights, just the way you approach and look at a situation, uh, the different perspectives it gives you. I think for me that was huge, um. And secondly, the culture for the business. I mean, I've always been very strong on culture within the business anyway, but getting it from um, another member of the team that looks at it from a different way to me, again that brings a completely different angle to it, which I know has been seen as hugely valuable across the business and was was pivotal to the success that we've had previously. So they're just two that I've witnessed. I mean, there's plenty more benefits, right? So I'm sure you could just reel off a list a mile long, and I'm sure we'll discuss some of those in more detail a little bit later as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I mean that's great to hear and that's great to hear and that's typically what the data shows to this, especially if you look at the decisions that companies diverse companies are making. Long term they tend to last longer, be more sustainable, drive the business further with that longer term view. The more specifically women that you have on your team, the less likely you are to jump to conclusions prematurely, because there's a different maybe a more patient sometimes approach to things, and that's again not a charity project. It's a strategic advantage. If you very consciously hire a diverse team to get the job done, you're going to have better results, and I think that's like the second point that is being kept repeated. That I find really troubling.
Speaker 2:Somehow the notion has become predominant that diversity is a charity project and that means that you would hire someone underqualified for a job just because they come from a certain background or have a certain gender or are from a specific kind of ethnicity, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sure there is the odd exception to the rule, and we all hate that. Nobody would say, oh, I want that job just because I am an underrepresented minority. No, you want the job because you are the best fit for the job. So I think that's something that we all have to really take a look good hard, look at ourselves and be honest with ourselves. Why do some people think that that is the case? And I think it's because they feel like they have been put on the backseat in favor of other people. But the reason for that is not that they are being treated unfairly or that the minority is being advantaged. We're finally leveling the playing field in that we have to look for certain talents in certain places where we just haven't looked before.
Speaker 2:It's wild to me that somebody would take that as an assassination, almost of themselves, right? How insecure do you have to be if a bigger talent pool and a deeper talent pool is that intimidating to you? And I think that's you know. That's always the question, and it's a very pointed one. Are you intimidated or am I intimidating you? Those are two very different things. Those are two very different things and it's very important to keep them separate. And we're all here to find the best people for the job. And if that means a white male is best qualified, absolutely hired white male, go for it. I'm all for it. But if there's an equally talented and qualified person from a minority, I would encourage you to hire that person and we don't even have to talk about if there is somebody who's better qualified and an underrepresented minority. The underrepresented minority shouldn't even be part of the rationale.
Speaker 1:Shouldn't be a thing. Go for it, yeah, as someone that's hired a lot of people, both for the business that that uh that I run, as well as uh for our clients. It's always been about the best person for the job. There is nothing else that comes into consideration um, age, sex, whether they're from an underrepresented minority or not, background, whatever. It's about finding the best person for the job.
Speaker 1:And I, what would amaze me when I got into this space and started to hear more about the dni um the, the um dni initiative, sorry is is why that isn't the way everyone approaches the situation as well, and it took me a long time to get my head around and, to be honest, there's still a big part of me that that is a little bit confused around, why you wouldn't just find the best person for the job. Um, and I think a lot of that maybe stems back to like unconscious bias, and that's something I've had to really educate myself on in the last couple of years and and again, I'm by no means an expert in that space, but I think that's where one of the bigger problem lies is in unconscious bias and and how we're brought up to to believe certain things and just to act in certain ways and react to certain scenarios in certain ways, and it's a big problem absolutely, and I think there's two aspects of that.
Speaker 2:One is that we all tend to hire people that are like us. Now, you're a white male, I'm white female, but we're both white Caucasian. We've had the privilege of education. We've had lots of privileges that we're many times not even aware of. Now. If we weren't aware and we didn't consciously make an effort to hire a diverse team, we'd just be hiring people that we know, because our group of friends, our circle of alumni you name it generally for the most part is made up of people that are like you and I. So same for conferences.
Speaker 2:If I put out a call for speakers and here comes social conditioning as well If I put out a call for speakers today, especially in a tech realm, what I get is 90% white male submissions, which is fine. That is representative of how this space is currently structured, is currently structured. But here's two ways now to react to that. If you are the owner of that event, or even have not, even if you're the owner, if you have any type of affiliation with that event, you can A shrug your shoulders and say oh well, you know, I'm sorry, jasmine, that's just the way it is. I mean, you know the tech industry there's way more men than women and I'm sorry, this is what we got. So isn't that great. We have a fantastic list of speakers. Let's go, or B you go. Wow, okay, that's a great starting point.
Speaker 2:What I want this conference to be is balanced. So I need a 50-50 gender split in keynote speakers. Now, right now, I have a 90-10 split. That is not good enough.
Speaker 2:But what now needs to happen and I think that's where a lot of people shy away from the extra work is what now needs to happen is I have to go back to every single submission on that list. Talk to the person who raised their hand and say hey, I like the story, I would love to have the story on stage, but is there a woman in your team that you could send? And now, interestingly, one of two things happens. And now, interestingly, one of two things happens Either the person you're talking to is very open and pulls out their virtual contact list and not only provides me with one, but usually three or five recommendations of fantastic women that I should get in touch with to see if they'd be willing to speak, or they completely shut down because they don't like what I've just asked and they want to be speaking on their own behalf and they want to build their profile and they're like, well, no, if I'm not speaking, then nobody's going to be speaking.
Speaker 1:Do you see?
Speaker 2:that? Yeah, oh yeah. That's exactly the experience from the Market Alliance flagship conferences.
Speaker 1:Wow, every year without fail. Maybe there's just a lot of naivety from my side, but if that was here, I'd love to promote some of the females in the business and either let them do it or let them get involved and we we do it together, or whatever it might be, I wouldn't. There's no way. I'll just dismiss it and be like, well, it's me, or it's me or no one.
Speaker 2:That's crazy we'll see, but that's and I I'm see you're what we would, what we call an ally, and that's super important, because many times the important conversations don't happen with the people in the room that are being talked about Mostly women, right? So what we need is people like you or many of these other male speakers on that speaker list who said, oh wow, now that you've made me aware, absolutely, let me go find some of the amazing women in my team or even elsewhere and let's get them on stage. And they have been some of the most supportive allies that one could ask for and dream of. So that's amazing. But there's an equal volume that doesn't quite share that enthusiasm, and I think that's also why we see that rollback in DEI initiatives, because you have to ask yourself if it's that easy for you to let go of those initiatives.
Speaker 2:Political pressure aside, my assumption is that you weren't as passionate about them in the first place, and there were lots of incentives for companies to do the right thing right. There were tax cuts, there were all kinds of incentives that rewarded you for being a diverse company. Now that these incentives are being stripped back or, in some cases, even reversed, well, if you never really believed in what you were doing. Anyways, here's a very convenient excuse to put all of that extra effort in, because, let's be honest, yes, it does require extra effort. Same for hiring diverse people, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean it, it does, but, as you just said, you shouldn't. You shouldn't be doing this because you get some tax cuts like that's just backwards, right. Cool, that's a nice benefit to have, but that shouldn't be the primary reason that you're promoting DE&I. I mean, if nothing else, we've started the conversation with a very, very good reason. Ie, your business will be 36%, I think you said, more profitable, 2.5x more per employee. I mean that that itself is a great reason, but I mean, outside of that, it's just about having a better business, being surrounded by better people. A diverse team brings different ideas, different cultures. It's cool. I couldn't think of anything worse than being in a business with 20 other white males, like do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Just putting it out there, like being able to talk to people from different backgrounds, cultures, the conversations that you have, the things you learn, the way you develop mentally and your knowledge is just insane. So I can't. It's just to me it's so backwards, which is why I was looking forward to this conversation, because I find it mind-blowing, like the stuff that you're telling me and I know you're super, you're you're super in the know about absolutely everything to do with D&I. So, uh, it's, yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 2:It just shocks me, honestly well, and you know that that. Thank you, because that restores my faith in humanity to a degree. Um, you know, sometimes along the road you're like, you shake your head in disbelief and you're like, seriously, that's the conversation that we're having, uh. But it's also equally very hard to prove the effect that diversity has on your business. Right, because it's very easy to attribute your growing bottom line to the economy or to the new sales program or to. It's never just attributed and you cannot just attribute it to diversity. But once you strip that away, it will have an impact on the bottom line.
Speaker 2:Now again, I don't think that people will be honest enough to admit that that is because of diversity, equity and inclusion. They will find all kinds of reasons, right, it's the economy first of all, and then there's politics, and then there's the list goes on and on and on and on, and that's kind of like marketing in a sense. Right, where it's very hard. If you're not a hardcore dimension, numbers-driven niche set, how do you prove that your brand is relevant? Very hard to attach a number to that Very hard.
Speaker 2:But it's the same with diversity, right, you know that it is impacting the business, but there's no causal number data correlation that proves it without a doubt. And that's when people like to take the data and wrestle it into their favorite version of the spreadsheet that has nothing to do with the original. And that's where we all just need to be vigilant and outspoken and really hold our ground. Now it's not the time to bend over backwards and say, oh yeah, we'll just drop it like a hot potato. That would be devastating, because the need for diversity, equity and inclusion programs has never been higher, which is also part of the shocking piece, right, that, while demand is growing, many companies are now scaling back is heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:And you know, we just, at the Mark Alliance, launched a mentorship program two years ago. That is, hands down, the most sought after and successful program that we've run, and without fail, all year long. So what we do is we put out a call for applications. We find mentors first, because, you know, mentors are naturally more limited than people who want to be mentees. So we find mentors. We were able to find 200, which I think is insane right.
Speaker 2:So there's a demand on both sides and there's plenty of fantastic, good-hearted, kind people who are willing to volunteer their time and their energy into a program like that. So that's amazing. And then we open applications for 200 mentees and then we match them to the best of our abilities by topic and by region, because we don't want to force people in Asia to talk to somebody in the US Kind of difficult. So we try to create as much overlap as we can and we match those mentors and mentees. The program is supposed to last six months and that's almost what makes me proud is I know so many of those matches that are still in touch two years later, long after the official program has ended. But both mentor and mentee are getting so much out of those conversations that they're having that they've just decided that they're going to keep on keeping on.
Speaker 2:And that's amazing and throughout the year we get so many questions, people asking, hey, is it too late, can I still join the program? And we always have to say, well, we only do it once a year, so you have to be patient and you have to be very alert when we open applications, but the fact that throughout the year people keep inquiring about it Everybody who hears about it is super excited. We have, I think, 93% returning mentors, which is so impressive and it's making a real difference for the mentees because they say for the first time I get to have a conversation a in a safe place with somebody who's not in my company and with somebody who is has a lot more experience than I do and actually is giving me really great advice that helps me build out my career path or help me change the way I see some things that are happening in a business, helps me better my relationship with my direct manager.
Speaker 1:Whatever is on the mentee's mind right, and it's been incredible to see yeah, that's that's really cool and I I think that's a lot of that community feel was something that happens a lot within commerce. I've seen it a lot, particularly the last five years, which is really cool. Just to be clear on that, is that so the mentors and the mentees I'm assuming are a combination of male and female helping each other, or they female, female? Are they a variety, uh, backgrounds and and ethnic minorities and and yeah, all kinds right we?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly we have we, and that's what we're very proud of. It's open to all yep mentees have to be mock alliance members. That's like one caveat. Because it's a mock alliance program, mentors can come from anywhere and be anything. We have male, female, all kinds of ethnicities.
Speaker 2:There is a check box if you're a mentee, because all the mentees are female, it's a women in mark program, so all the mentees have been female okay, we have a check box to say I would prefer a female mentor because maybe you know that's what you specifically want to talk about and you feel more secure in a space with a female mentor. But going forward, what we'll do is we'll make it a people in MACH program. So we're opening up instead of closing it down and keeping it to just women. Quote unquote. We're actually going to expand the reach to be even more inclusive and include everybody, both on the mentor and on the mentee side. So super excited about that, that's next year's program.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I look forward to seeing that continue to get rolled out and the success that it has. That's really cool. Before you, before you moved on to that, you touched upon the D and I initiatives that we're seeing more and more of in the industry. I guess I'd just be interested in your thoughts on these in general, because you you're right in what you say. We're seeing the d and I is becoming a focus for a lot of businesses. However, we started off the whole conversation by saying it's going backwards. So how are we at a point where d and I is becoming more of a focus, yet we are seemingly going backwards as an industry? It the two don't go. They don't add up right. So I guess, what's your thoughts on the issues themselves? Are they good? Are they just smoke and mirrors? Are they a waste of time? What's your thoughts, jasmine?
Speaker 2:you know what? I think it depends um and it. We are living in crazy complicated, chaotic times, so there is no easy answer to any of that. I think the core of those initiatives is coming from a place of trying to be helpful, which is great. Sometimes there is a lack of strategy going into it.
Speaker 2:So how are you going to measure success? What are you actually trying to achieve with the diversity program that you're putting on, and what is a diversity program in the first place? It can be very fuzzy and I think that's where some of the pushback is coming from. If it's not very specifically tied to one of your corporate goals, and that's what I would always encourage Just having diversity for the sake of diversity is going to have you go down a very difficult path sooner or later, latest when management changes, because that's the first thing people look at and go oh, what's that? Oh, it's not tied to a company goal. Let's get rid of it, right, because it costs money. You have resources tied up into that.
Speaker 2:So that's what I would encourage everybody who's running a diversity program to make crystal clear and to over communicate with everybody in the organization how does your diversity initiative tie into the company goals and not some lower level goal, preferably the pipeline goal or the revenue goal or something that is crucially essential for the business and then talk about it. Talk about how your efforts no, honestly, I see to your point. It's a. Why do I have an? Why do I even have to talk about that? That is so common sense, but it's not happening. So what happens is usually HR is busy running their diversity thing over here. Nobody else is really aware of what's going on. And then come cost reduction day.
Speaker 2:You know the first things that go out, the window are the ones that don't have a specific label value label attached to them. So that's what I would encourage everybody to do have a good look at your diversity program. Make sure that it is tied to a company goal and then talk about it, update your leadership team on it regularly. Show the progress that you're making, show the effect that is having on the business. I'm sure most companies have an employee satisfaction survey or something along those lines.
Speaker 2:Make diversity, your diversity efforts, an outspoken, integral part of that, so you can report back on how that data actually develops over time. Because otherwise, how are you ever going to prove the value of your program? Going to be very difficult. So, um, I think that's every diversity program that is based on those two pillars is set up for success, and I I'd love to see more of that and then more people talking about that publicly, because we really need to start chipping away at the block. That is that weird perception that diversity means hiring underqualified people by quota and, you know, costing a lot of money for no return. Because nothing is further from the truth from my point of view, I guess.
Speaker 1:I guess a lot of that just goes back to the reason behind why you're setting up in the first place, right, not just setting up because it's what you should be doing, or it's the hot topic right now. It's because you generally believe in it and everything that you're trying to work towards is a fundamental value within the business. Um, I get the impression that there's probably not enough of that happening and there's more of it happening as a tick box, unfortunately, um, but I guess it's a starting point, albeit, uh, not not the best one. It's, uh, it's a starting point, I guess, and it I mean it does need to continue. Like I said, it still just amazes me that, uh, that this happens, but but there we go.
Speaker 1:I feel like we could probably talk about this for, uh, for a long, long time. But I think what would be good to touch upon is, um is like in your opinion, how can we solve this and how can we sort of decrease the gap moving forward? Um, because it's very easy to just say, well, this is how it's set up, right, there's more men in technology, but actually that's not the answer, and there's lots of initiatives we can take to get him past that. So yeah, I think that's probably a good talking point. So yeah, I guess in your opinion, and how can we solve this and decrease the gap, moving forward?
Speaker 2:That's an excellent question and it's potentially easier to answer than people think. I think really don't accept excuses, right? We talked about that. If you get a speaker recommendation list and 90% on that list is white male, then don't just shrug your shoulders and go, oh yeah, that's just the way it is. That is not enough, and it's very easy to do something about that. You can do it yourself, and it doesn't matter how high or low you are in the org, because I hear that many times it's like yeah, yeah, but management has to do something about that. No, it starts with you, and if you see something in the business that you think could be done better, nobody is keeping you from raising your hand and making a suggestion on how it could be done better. All you need to do is be willing to roll up your sleeves and get some of the work put in, and it's possibly as easy as saying oh look, I saw the speaker recommendation list. There's a lot of white men on there. Would it be okay if I tapped into my network and provided a few alternatives? I have yet to hear anybody say no to an offer like that, because the more diverse those groups are, the better the result is going to be. So don't accept excuses and really push for your business to do better. And while you're pushing the business to do better, walk the talk.
Speaker 2:There are so many things that you can do as an individual, and even if it's just holding people accountable to what they said they were going to do. Another great example usually for panels, the one woman on the panel is the moderator. Okay, why? Well, because you know, women are generally known or expected to be good at moderating things, but there's no reason why your male colleague wouldn't be able to do that. There's no reason why you shouldn't have at least two women sitting on the panel as panelists, and I think that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:If you're a little more experienced and you get invited to these kinds of things, ask about who else is going to be on the panel.
Speaker 2:You would be surprised how many times I've learned only by asking that I would be the only one, and then you can say, oh, wow, you know what? I think it would be really beneficial for this panel if I brought, if I could recommend another woman, and it's in those small things, and those small things go an incredibly long way if you keep doing them repeatedly and if you're an ally and you're going to a conference, ask to bring a female colleague, ask to have them sit in on something that is important for them to hear, or something that they would have no access to if they were to go on their own. If we all thought a little harder about how we could help those around us, shine and rise us, shine and rise, life will be so much easier for all of us. So that's that's where I'm always like you know, don't, don't. The buck stops with you in that sense, um, and you can do so many things that will make such a difference for so many people.
Speaker 1:Start there and then see what that does and how that spreads I love how you said every one of us can make a difference there, and I guess it's very easy to look at this as an event organizer or as a hirer or whatever it might be, and say it's down to them.
Speaker 1:And there's definitely more that can be done there 100%, and I'll bring some ideas to the table for that in a second as well. But the point I want to touch upon that you mentioned there is as, as a female attendee or a speaker, you can also do more as well, and I think that's really cool, like you've got a community of of powerful females in the industry that you can bring with you that maybe didn't hear about the uh, the opportunity to go, or they didn't see the message, and actually you, speaking to them, um can encourage them to come and actually make them aware of it in the first place. So I think that's a really good point to touch upon as well. Is it's is we can all do a little bit more um and and not just accepting what it is as what it is and actually okay, cool I can make a one percent change.
Speaker 1:It's going to be beneficial, right, and I think that's really really good. Also, going back to the moderator point, and maybe that's the unconscious bias, maybe that's really really good. Also, going back to the moderator point, and maybe that's the unconscious bias, maybe that's why the female is the moderator and unconscious bias coming in again.
Speaker 2:Possibly, and that's why it's so important to call that out and not in a confrontative oh you've done it wrong kind of way, but sometimes just asking the question and saying, hey, I've noticed, this is how we're setting this up.
Speaker 2:Are we sure that that's the best way to do it? Because, to your point, yes, it might be completely unconscious. I'm not saying that I always assume good intentions. Very rarely do I walk into ill intentions from the outset. But if you never voice your concern, how is the person even supposed to know that they could be doing it better?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's one of my leadership principles, actually it's if I have not told you what I don't like, how are you supposed? I mean, you know you're not a, you don't have a crystal ball. You cannot out of nowhere know what I would like and what I don't like. If we were more outspoken about our expectations and about what, what our assumptions are, then that would also go a very long way, and you can do that kindly. Nobody is saying go and you know, tell everybody that they're doing it wrong. Absolutely not. But it's those little reminders and the suggestions and the hey. Can I lend you a hand with making this a more diverse event? Why would anybody say no? And if they do, they, you know, are a lost cause.
Speaker 1:That's true. I mean, they could be sat there saying, well, last year we had no female speakers, this year we've got one, we're going forward. But actually that you could say well, joe, I could bring at least another four with me, and now you've got five. Suddenly that's in a 33 split and it's still not 50 50, but it's far better than 90 10, right.
Speaker 2:So exactly, and you know exactly, those things go such a long way, which is why, you know, just offer to help. I think that's that's one of the core pillars and that's also why we're launching an allyship program, because we want to be, we want to make it easier for people to help, because many times the questions we get are along those lines of hey, I support the cause, but I'm just not quite sure what I'm actually supposed to do. How, what does an ally do? How can I help the women in my company feel safe, feel heard, feel seen? Because I don't know. I've never been in that position, I haven't experienced what it feels like and I just don't really quite know what to do. So we're going to have a structured program educating men in the industry on how they can be a better partner, in the best possible sense, for the women in their companies, for the women in the industry, because there is still so much imbalance in, even in sheer numbers.
Speaker 2:I just attended a conference in Copenhagen and it was a great conference, don't get me wrong. Great content, content. But at speaker dinner I was the only female speaker and, in all fairness, there was a second female speaker she just couldn't make it to dinner. But two out of ten is two out of ten yes, it's still not.
Speaker 1:It's still not five.
Speaker 2:Five out of ten, right, totally, and I'm sure that was not the intent, but what it tells me is that was just not on their to-do list, it was not a goal. And for you know, I can see why. If it's a first-time conference and you're scrambling to get all the pieces in place in the first place, adding an additional work stream because that's what it would have needed is an additional resource almost to get that going, that's just one thing too much and then that drops off the agenda because you're busy dealing with all the other things.
Speaker 1:But that's why the community is so important. Just tap into the community.
Speaker 1:Also, it's really not that hard to go on. Everyone uses LinkedIn these days. Right, you can go on LinkedIn. You can very quickly bring up a search of non-white males in leadership positions within digital commerce and you can find them all. A quick email. You can even copy and paste the vast majority of that email that just says hey, we're putting this conference together. We're going to be speaking about x, y and z.
Speaker 1:We'd love to have an even uh distribution of speakers from uh, different minorities, um, would you be interested in having a conversation around around, um getting involved?
Speaker 1:What you've done with x, y and z looks really cool like that, doesn't?
Speaker 1:That may take half a day to message 100 people now appreciate that's half a day, but it's really, really not a huge amount of time in the grand scheme of things, if it's of that sort of importance to you and I think this is something that we can talk about now is just about how it's very easy to say don't just accept excuses, and and I I also agree, but there's small things that we can do which do make a big difference, like specifically targeting uh certain types of types of individuals, um or um hosting events, like you've the women in market.
Speaker 1:I've not been, but I've heard it's an amazing event and it went down really, really well. But also seeing far more like, uh, women in engineering and women in um delivery and product and all these events now which are really trying to empower women, which I think is great. And how how can you get involved in those types of communities or even run them yourself? Run an event yourself. I appreciate that's a little bit harder, maybe takes a bit more time, a bit of money, a lot, a lot of organization, but there'll be huge benefits off the back of it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I mean in these virtual days. I mean start small and all you need to do. I think it's as easy as you just described. Put out a call for volunteers on LinkedIn and say, hey, I think we need this.
Speaker 2:I'd love to set up and maybe that's a WhatsApp group to start with, right, just find a way to build community, because you'll be. And that's how the whole women in mock movement was born in the first place by getting a hundred females into a room. And then that did something really remarkable, because all of a sudden, everybody heard from the others that they were experiencing the same thing, when everybody is always thinking, oh, I'm the only person who's got it cut out for them, right, but that's not the case. We're all, yes, we're all different, but we're all so similar at the same time. So the fact alone that you're now talking about something is already a major game changer. One part of and that's maybe for somebody who's listening, who says, well, I would love to be more involved, but I just don't know where to start Women in Mock has a LinkedIn group and a LinkedIn page.
Speaker 2:So if you want to go find those now, that is a great way to get a lay of the land. And we host monthly Enlighten Her sessions, which are basically a half hour interview with somebody who talks about their experience and some of the challenges that they faced, and we have a library now of, I think, 12 sessions. Go and have a listen and if you find interesting what you hear, go ping the person on LinkedIn and say, hey, I really enjoyed your talk. Do you have five minutes for me, or 15? I would like to discuss something. What's the worst thing that can happen?
Speaker 2:Always amazes me that people are so scared to reach out to somebody that they don't know what's the worst thing that can happen always amazes me that people are so scared to reach out to somebody that they don't know what's the worst thing that can happen.
Speaker 2:you don't get a response yeah, it's the fear of the unknown, though, right, it's a real thing right, but the best thing that can happen is you get in touch with somebody who's who's got some great insights for you, who's willing to spend their time and who will just listen to whatever your most pressing problem is at that moment, and you never know when you're going to bump into them next, because commerce is such a small space on a grand scale is such a small space. So you will learn so much and you'll have, you'll build, connections that will be valuable to you. Maybe not immediately, but who knows, you know, one year, two year, five years down the line. You never know where you end up, where these people end up, and how that might come together in the most beautiful fashion that you never envisioned when you started talking with them.
Speaker 1:I've heard about so many of these stories as well over the last couple of years, so that generally happens. And, going back to the woman in my, I'll make sure that we post a link to that to that group when this episode goes live, to make it really easy for anyone that's listening. On that note as well, you can obviously reach out to me at any point and I can point you in in that direction, as I'm sure you can with with Jasmin as well, so cool. The one other point I'd just like to mention here, and and something that I saw very recently which I thought was really cool um, and this is looking specifically at hiring um, um, women, and in this example and it said something along the lines of um, research has shown that unless a female meets 80 something percent of the job criteria, they're unlikely to apply for the position. And this specific job advert said if you're reading this and this is, you, make sure you hit the apply button anyway, as we'd like to hear from you.
Speaker 1:And I thought that was really cool as well, because it's just acknowledging, uh, how a female looks at the situation and just saying, look, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously you've got to have some relevance for the role, right, but they're not saying anyone can just apply.
Speaker 1:But if you're maybe 65 percent of the way there, they're making the assumption, based on data, that you wouldn't normally apply, but they're saying please apply, we want to speak to you and I think that's a really cool way employers can can take that small extra step that probably took two minutes right into the job description and it will impact a lot of females in. In this case, that will say joe, I'm going to send my cv anyway. I thought that was, I thought that was something really small that employers can do. That will probably make quite a big difference in in the short to midterm, which then obviously makes an even bigger difference long term, um, I'm sure. So that was cool and I've seen lots of other initiatives when it comes to hiring to engage in really specific communities, um, globally. So, um, I can say that I'm starting to see it now, which is good, and I just hope it continues and I hope it's not just there for show and it is actually something that gets followed up on and treated appropriately absolutely right.
Speaker 1:So we spoke a lot about some of the frustrations and kind of why we find ourselves here. We just touched upon how we can solve it and I think a really good way to end this. Jasmin is going to be talking about the benefits of having a diverse workforce at all levels. We've spoken about the bottom line benefit already, which is obviously amazing, but let's talk about some of the more specific benefits that we can expect, maybe from a day-to-day point of view, culturally, in the business, because to me they are just as important as having a profitable business right.
Speaker 2:So in your opinion, what are some of the benefits of having a diverse workforce at all levels? That's an excellent question, and there's so many, but let's pick out the ones that are most important. We've talked about bottom line. I think that should be the ultimate focus of the whole business, right? But if everybody believed in what we've just so beautifully talked about, there would be no silos in any business for anything, and we all know that that isn't true. So I think that's one of the benefits. Diversity does have an impact on the bottom line. So if you want your business to be more successful, if you want to make more money, you should employ a diverse workforce. You will get better solutions. You will get better decisions.
Speaker 2:Decision-making is especially positively influenced if you have diverse teams at work, because there's more illinear thought that goes into the decision being made, there's more perspective being considered, and that ultimately makes you arrive at a better, more sustainable decision. That is not to be underestimated. More sustainable decision that is not to be underestimated. So you're going to build a better business and a more future fit business if your teams are diverse. Now, it also improves morale if you have a team that is really passionate about what they do and has a shared set of values, and that shared set of values doesn't exist on the paper or on the posters that you put in the office that say, hey, these are our values. The values are what your employees experience on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2:Now, if you create an environment where everybody feels valued and seen and free to voice their opinion and be taken seriously, that will make your employees stay so much longer. You'll reduce churn. It will make them more passionate. It will make them more productive as well, because they actually appreciate the business that they're working for. They'll be wanting to put in the extra work. That is not something that you'll have to harass them to do. So you're getting a more productive workforce. You're also getting a healthier workforce, quite literally in a physical sense, if everybody feels like they belong. That sense of belonging has real life implications on absences, health and happiness. There's a reason why, for a period of time, companies entertained the thought of the chief happiness officer, because, again, that was due to data. It's not a charity project and it's not a box to take.
Speaker 1:It is actually something that has a tangible value dollar, euro, whatever currency you like value for the business I remember the first time I saw that that header on as a job title on linkedin and I was like, really, is that, is that serious? I thought it was a joke at first and I then I quickly saw a few of them and I was like, really, is that, is that serious? I thought it was a joke at first and I then I quickly saw a few of them and I was like, wow, okay, it's a, but like you said, it's, it's an important topic to love to what should be every company and it's actually a differentiator.
Speaker 2:if you care to that degree and your competitor doesn't, well, where's the new talent gonna go? Or vice versa, if you don't have it but your competitor has it, that is to, especially now that we're talking about the generational shift from millennials to Gen Z, there's a whole different set of requirements or expectations put on the employer when you know people like you and I used we, we grew up, and for us, work always came first, still does, if I'm really being honest, and now I'm, unfortunately, and I pride myself in having a pretty good work life balance, if whatever that is, but you know I would, I, I love work. Now, if number of times that I've walked into conversations where the question to me as well but, jasmine, I don't want to, I don't want to do it like you. I there's, I want to only work four days a week because I have a life and I really want to spend less time working and more life, more time living, and I'm like, wow, that's a challenging question, but those are the types of questions that we need to start answering as businesses how do we cater to those evolving needs while still running a successful business? And I think there's ways to match that.
Speaker 2:But it all starts with the diverse workforce. If you don't know what your people actually want, how are you ever going to cater to what they need? Virtually impossible. So diversity will give you a much better line of sight into what's actually going on. Because here's the final thing that I think is super important Diversity builds trust. If you have a diverse workforce and people feel comfortable sharing where they're from, what they're about, what their sexual orientation is, who they are at the core, if they can be themselves, you build a level of trust. That also makes it so much easier to address a whole lot of other topics like how do you envision work? Do you want to work from home? Do you want to work from an office? What's the ratio between remote and office and there's everything in between. But you can only have those conversations if you have built that backbone of trust, and that starts with not just talking to the people that look like you, speak like you and walk like you powerful.
Speaker 1:Wow, I honestly feel lost for words right now. I mean I don't think there's anything that I can add that's gonna give justice to, kind of how you've just explained the benefits. I mean I agree with absolutely all of them. Um, one of the first times I've been speechless on the podcast in the best part of 60 episodes, honestly, um, but I can just relate to so much of that. And I've been speechless on the podcast in the best part of 60 episodes, honestly, um, but I can just relate to so much of that.
Speaker 1:And I've been looking at how we've run Simply Commerce over the years and I'm really it makes me feel really proud for the sort of business that we've had, because I feel we went by no means perfect, don't get me wrong, but a lot of what you were saying there. We, we've, we definitely tick that box, and not because it's a tick box just because that's how we've. We definitely tick that box and not because it's a tick box just because that's how we've wanted to have the business, how we've uh, how we've, uh, just just fostered the culture of the business and having that vulnerability and openness where everyone feels welcome and comfortable to share their stories, of which we've had many a story um, it's, it's, yeah, it's just, it's just powerful. Listening to those benefits and, uh, we seem to say it's easy. It's certainly not easy to have a really diverse workforce for every business in every industry.
Speaker 1:There's some industries that are obviously much harder than than others, but I think, looking at digital commerce in itself the industry there, where we both spend all of our time it is one of the easier industries to to have a diverse workforce and it's certainly an easier industry to to encourage diversity and to engage with communities and to help promote people that maybe aren't confident or comfortable doing something themselves and encouraging them to do it because because they're there. It's just about a can we? Can we uh interact and engage them and, b can we promote them and encourage them and help them and guide them on their journey? Um, it's great to hear what you guys are doing in in the MACH Alliance with the mentorship program and looking forward to seeing that continue to to have success and looking forward to seeing all the other programs that come out over the next couple of years as well, as it is a really important topic.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's why we're doubling down on it as well and give yourself a pat on the back in the best possible sense, because you're doing what's right, even without anybody telling you that that's what you should be doing. I'd love to see more companies do what you do at Simple Commerce, and you know, that is what gives me hope and that's how we should go about. Even challenging times like these, there's always hope and there's always something that you can do. So if whoever's listening just takes away that they can do something today or tomorrow, no matter how small, to help us advance the conversation, then we're all leaving as winners today.
Speaker 1:What a way to end the episode. Lovely, Jasmin. Thank you so much for joining me. That was a really, really awesome episode. As I said, the first time that I've been speechless in nearly 60 episodes. It takes a lot for me to not know what to say, right, but that was powerful. That was really good. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, James.
Speaker 1:I hope everyone enjoyed that as much as I did. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please do like, share, subscribe, pass the message far and wide and I look forward to seeing you all soon. Bye.
