.png)
The FODcast
In the FODcast (The Future of #DigitalCommerce) we explore the real career stories of the people who have made it to the very top of the sector and those who are working at the cutting edge of innovation and change right now. Listeners to the podcast gain insight into the journeys industry leaders have taken to be where they are today, the challenges they are facing now and their aims for the future.
The FODcast
Physical Retail's Vital Pulse: Why In-Store Experiences Still Matter with James O'Hare
The death of the high street? Not quite.
In this episode of The FODcast, we’re joined by James O’Hare - Area VP UK at Sitoo – to explore why physical retail isn’t dying, it’s evolving.
From in-store gyms and juice bars to immersive tent villages, retailers creating memorable, experience-led spaces are thriving. And behind it all? A shift from disconnected systems to unified commerce, where real-time data powers seamless, personalised shopping.
We cover a LOT in this episode, including:
- Why in-person shopping still accounts for 75–80% of retail sales
- The admin load facing store staff (and how tech is changing that)
- What unified commerce really means (and why it’s more than just omnichannel)
- Surprising data gaps between UK and Swedish retail
- How smarter POS systems are freeing staff to serve customers
James brings sharp insight and real-world examples that every retail leader should hear.
Take a walk, grab a coffee, and tune in.
Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.
Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/
Hello and welcome to Season 7 of the podcast, the podcast focused on the future of digital commerce hosted by Simply Commerce. Season 7 promises to continue to bring you some of the industry's brightest minds across the globe as we unpick the sector and where it's heading From war stories to strategy and technology, deep dives to future trends we cover it all as we continue our journey to have one of the most popular podcasts in commerce. Before we start, if you enjoy our content, please do hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening on, like and share on socials.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another edition of the podcast. On today's episode, really pleased to welcome James O'Hare from C2. James, you are the VP of C2, responsible for the UK brand or UK division, and it'd be good to hand over to you to get a little bit of insight into you, your background and what you do for the business.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, tim, really pleased to be here. Thank you for the invite. So yes, I'm James O'Hare, vp UK for C2, kind of as a business and what C2 is. Just to give a bit of a background to the organization before I go on to myself. So C2 is a point of sale software application. So essentially when you go into a checkout into any retail, fashion and lifestyle store, you get to the checkout. The software running on that checkout is the software that C2 provides to retailers.
Speaker 3:Now why are we different? It's because we've built a platform that we believe that gives staff and store associates the opportunity to give the best possible service. So if you want to see stock and the fact that it's not in stock in store but it could be in stock in a nearby store or online or in the data warehouse, we can bring that data into the checkout. If you want to recognize a returning customer to give them a vip experience, you can take their details, recognize their customer, bring that from the crm into into the store and into the hands of the store associate to give a fantastic experience.
Speaker 3:So essentially, a unified commerce platform is that's what it's trying to achieve is to bring as much data into the hands of your store associates to create amazing shopping experiences every time, everywhere. That's kind of one of our, one of our missions, um, but I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more of that as we go. So to me, I'm um, I'm based in the east midlands, uh, worked in various guises, kind of working with retailers over the last kind of 20 plus years, um, before I joined c2 of january of last year, I spent 10 years in the mobile messaging space, um, so the those annoying text messages or whatsapp messages you get from businesses that I was part of the, the technology that powered those those for 10 years and then joined C2, january of last year and loving the crazy world of retail.
Speaker 2:How do you stop those messages?
Speaker 3:by the way, A good opt-out should usually work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't always seem to work for a while.
Speaker 3:Yeah, some are better than others, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for the intro, much appreciated. We've got plenty to talk about. Obviously, you and I have had a conversation before we jumped on the podcast and there's loads of interesting stuff. If we could start with the macro trends, that would be really good. So we've talked already about retail and we both have talked about how we think it's changed already in the recent time, recent history, and there'll be quite a lot of change in the next five, six, seven years. What do you think is the biggest driver behind that change and and its acceleration of change?
Speaker 3:more specifically, yeah, at the risk of sounding like a ridiculously broken record from a few years ago, in the new normal that came with after the pandemic, but that 2020, 2021, it really was a massive inflection point for retail Because, as those retail stores closed, I think you know and I was not necessarily as close to retail as I was at the time, if you listen to the mainstream media both at the end of 2020 and into 2021, is because the pandemic had forced so many retailers to rethink their online strategy and started to question the validity of their stores. The expectation was everything was going to move online and I think, also, it doesn't really help that the mainstream media, when they're when they're struggling to write uh, any stories they they like to publish stories of the death of the high street, you know, and with no balance either. So you know, I think a recent example I heard yesterday was the the on oxford street, the nike store is going under redevelopment millions of pounds worth of redevelopment. The news story was nike closes, closes store on oxford street, and so so that narrative of the fact that everybody's going to shop online, it's uh, the physical store is dead. The only thing you're going to find on the high street is coffee shops and charity shops and vape shops.
Speaker 3:That narrative is permeated, but I think what happened, what the in in uh it, what has actually happened, is that the people you know generally society we are, yet our ceo, he likes to say we are herd animals. Okay, so we are social creatures, and what has happened actually is the opposite to that, is that people have started to value social interaction, value shopping experiences in a way. Maybe they didn't do before the pandemic because they lost the opportunity, they lost their freedom to go shopping with their friends when they wanted to, and so, therefore, that whole piece of going out and having the experience with shopping has very much come back to the fore, and loads of statistics to back that up in terms of how much people prefer still to shop online. And also is that we've tracked a lot of data on how many. What is the online sales versus in-store sales?
Speaker 3:And if you look at the graph pre and post Brexit oh, it's not Brexit pre and post the pandemic is actually, it's just a straight line graph. It's a straight line graph of the online increasing, but very much a straight line. So, yes, it had a big increase during the pandemic, but then it just resettled to a normal increase and it still represents only 20 to 25 percent. Um of all sales are actually made online for most, uh, kind of bricks and clicks retailers so, with that in mind, then, which macro trends do you think people are still underestimating?
Speaker 3:I think it's around what the the whole of the high street. I think what is dying is bad retail. That's what's. That is what is dying, rather than physical retail itself. And so I think what is what we're seeing more and more of successful retailers is and I don't want to use the word experience, but you know creating a reason to shop physically, and I think you know treating the channel as something which delivers something to consumers that is more than just a transaction, and I'll give you a couple of examples of that.
Speaker 3:So if you were to go to the Gymshark store on Regent Street now, gymshark is probably one of the most successful online brands of recent times, and yet they decided to open a physical store and now have actually gone even further and they've got plans to open dozens of stores.
Speaker 3:I think they're already up to like maybe 10. They're going to be up to more than that afterwards. But if you go into the Gymshark store, the way that they've created that store experience is so different to what you would normally expect in other retailers. So when you go into that particular store, there is a gym, an actual gym at the back of that store for you to actually wear some of the clothing that you know while working out. There is a juice bar in the store and there is also fantastic fitting rooms sort of on on the top floor. All of the staff have got roaming point of sales so you can actually go around the store, visit the customer where they are and even in some cases you can actually check out in the middle of the store rather than going going to to to the traditional, to the traditional checkout, um, and so.
Speaker 3:So that's one example. Another example is out of town retail, so go outdoors. Um, they're a store near york. I visited that quite recently and that is just. It's a huge square footage but it's an experience I spoke to, um, um, uh, sort of a local kind of that were in the store and they said often when it's a rainy day, they bring their kids.
Speaker 3:They bring their kids to go and visit the go outdoors store, because that is amazing you know, on the second floor there is a tent village, an entire tent village on the second floor of that of, of that of that building it's. It's incredible, you know the way they've done the the garden furniture to appear as if it's outside your house already, you know. So that's what I think the macro trend is is that retail is moving more towards. I don't want to say I say experiential or experiences, but it's definitely something which is providing the consumer with something more than just a transaction. It's a reason to visit the store so two, two questions on that.
Speaker 2:You, you didn't want to use the word experience. Why not?
Speaker 3:well, I think sometimes the the buzzwords do get a little bit fatigued, you know, and creating experiences, I think, can sometimes just be thrown out there without any real thought. And so that's the reason why I'm pulling back from those buzzwords, because I don't want to appear like I'm, you know, playing buzzword bingo here. But I think it's because it can often um be dressed up to mean something different you know, you know.
Speaker 3:So I think, I think that whole creating something which is more than just a transaction, I think that's a better, that's a better, a better way of describing it, as opposed to a label which can can get overused yeah, yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to see your thought process behind that. And then then bad retail. So if I think about what has disappeared from our high streets in the past 10 or so years, it's a lot of the concession stores, big stores with lots of different brands in there, and again, there was no experience, for want of a better word, um, is that where you're heads out in terms of bad retail or the other examples?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think, um, I think the department store is a really good uh, a really good sort of interesting topic. There I was. I was at another event two or three weeks ago. We had, um, dame sh Sharon White, who was the former chair of John Lewis, and what she thought was that there is a little bit of a renaissance going on in the department store concepts. Obviously, debenhams have gone, many department store concepts and really it's only John Lewis that's remained, you know, save another few smaller examples, but we're starting to see a bit of a return to department store concepts. So this is definitely happening.
Speaker 3:In scandinavia they've got a huge department store concepts. In sweden, for example, there's a retailer called arleans. Um, you know, that's got dozens of dozens of department stores that are very similar to john lewis. But what john lewis? The reason why I think john lewis, not only because of their heritage and their name has survived, but also they're they're not only because of their heritage and their name has survived, but also an example of that experience, or more than just a transaction. Obviously, they've got kitchen and homewares as a huge part of the John Lewis store. They're actually doing cookery classes, cookery classes and events, community events, within those stores. So they're taking what means a lot to them the John Lewis brand, of course, is, like I say, huge in heritage and a bit of a UK national treasure but they're making sure that the retail is still relevant and still creating a reason that's more than just a transaction.
Speaker 3:And so I think, yeah, that, I think, is where I see, you know, on the flip side, you know let's. You know you're a bit afraid just in case you get a call from one of them. But let's take a national electronics retailer that shall rename nameless. You know that rhymes with Burry's, and when you go in there it's apart from their social team that are doing their very best to bring it, to bring Curry's you know, into into sort of like, you know more modern mainstream. But if you shop in a Curry's now, it's almost the same as it was 10 years ago maybe 20 years ago.
Speaker 3:And it's a transaction.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:You know, and I think I love the stuff there. They're really knowledgeable, but in terms of what you experience when you get there, it's very, very same. It's very the same and it's very transactional. You know, and that's why I think you know, you know you could argue the same thing with Woolworths. You could argue the same thing with you know other, you know other, some of those other brands that have disappeared.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 3:So I think that's. That's what I think is what's dying.
Speaker 2:It's, it's those retailers that are not moving with the times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to say, from a nostalgia point of view, I kind of like the fact that curries is still the same.
Speaker 2:I remember being much younger running around curries and just looking at the new tvs and all the new um audio equipment and stuff. But in terms of experience and we'll go on to this next kind of goes into the next question I had for you if there's a renaissance with um like john lewis, where they've got concessions department stores, unified commerce has got to play into this, presumably because one of the biggest gripes with john lewis is you still have to go to a point of sale, which is often the other side of the shop, and then you get there. There there are about 17,000 people and you're kind of like, okay, surely there's a better way. I think it's getting better. But like you said, with Gymshark, they've got mobile points of sale. Effectively you don't need to do that and you've seen that adopted in some other shops. So unified commerce presumably plays into that. But if you were going to describe unified commerce to someone non-tech, who doesn't really understand commerce, how would you describe it?
Speaker 3:to start with, Well, I first of all would start with that. For many people you know, coming out, looking outside, in, I think, the likes of Next and some of those other uh kind of retailers that do the results of unified commerce, like click and collect, click and reserve, you know, um, you know there's a term got endless aisle, which means you're just placing a, an online order, while you're in store. What they've done is they've made that feel ubiquitous and they've also made that feel like it's relatively straightforward, and I think the thing I've learned ever since I joined C2 January of last year is that neither of those things are true. First of all, not every retailer is able to do this and also those that are. It is an incredibly difficult thing to do because the flow of data that sits behind the retailer's operation is really really complex, and so what you're having to do is you're having to sync and have the data flows across the retailer's website, the retailer's warehouse management system, the retailer's distribution centre Also you can add into that and making sure that you can unify the payments, so a payment made online versus a payment made in store.
Speaker 3:You've also got systems which handle all of the stock in the inventory. These are particularly called enterprise resource planning systems or ERP systems. So you're having to sync data flows across all of those systems, and if you're doing it really well, you want to do that in real time, to make sure that when you say something is available in store, it is, or if it's available online, that it is. Then add into that mix too. You want to understand who your customer is, because the best possible customer experience is being recognized. Being recognized as a returning customer, you might have a VIP membership, which then might bring with it a discount. So then you're unifying all of the data flows that says what are the past purchases, what are the customer-based recommendations or product-based recommendations, and all of these solutions have all got technology platforms that the retailer would typically use.
Speaker 3:And so we're talking you know what I've just listed there you're talking 10, 11, 12 different technology platforms dealing with each part of that particular puzzle.
Speaker 3:Now, what unified commerce is is trying to ensure that you can unify all of that particular puzzle.
Speaker 3:Now, what unified commerce is is trying to ensure that you can unify all of that data together, and actually not necessarily to create a single view, but it's actually making the data flows to be able to be real time and then bring the data across the organization to make it as useful as possible to create the best possible experience.
Speaker 3:So if you're online and you want to deliver a click and collect solution, you want to be able to deliver the store locations and the stock within those stores instantly to the website so you can have the customer say, yeah, I'll actually go and collect that at the store in Chelmsford, for example. And if you're in store, you want to instantly understand that James O'Hare is in the store. He's a very, very frequent purchaser, he's a VIP, has 10%, typically buys X, y and Z, so you can then deliver a much more personalized experience. So unified commerce is unifying all of those data flows and making them in real time to deliver and create amazing shopping experiences, because unified commerce, I think, is a term that's used, but ultimately it's about creating amazing customer experiences, which will obviously drive revenue, drive revenue and profitability in and of itself, and so I think that's what I think unified commerce really means.
Speaker 2:Okay, makes sense, and so it's all still heavily driven by the data, correct? So it's two data in real time and decision making based off of that. That data, yes. So knowing that, let's assume over the course of the next five years, retailers, with the help of people like you, really nail this and they get this right. They use AI, real-time data and they start to make a big impact on this, on unified commerce and the personalisation piece. What, in your view, does a day in the life of someone going shopping on the high street looked like in five years, in 2030?
Speaker 3:It's a very good question.
Speaker 2:What's fundamentally different, I think would be where I'd like to know is what has fundamentally changed.
Speaker 3:I think what is a really exciting kind of trend is in-store personalization, I think, online personalization, I think, and all of the technology behind that. I think it's still advancing and it's still changing and evolving, especially with legislation, or privacy legislation, which is stopping the amount of tracking that certain websites can do. I think the really exciting trend that you know what is it going to be like shopping in the next five years, I think, is around, you know. I think retailers will be able to seamlessly recognise returning shoppers and offer the personalisation that comes with it in a much, much better way, personalization that comes with it in a much, much better way. And so I think there is obviously the privacy and legislation will govern this. But if you take it to its nth degree, if you have given permission for the retailer to recognize you, potentially using your mobile phone, that would then automatically ping you to say hey, welcome, james, welcome back, you know, and ultimately that will then provide you with recommendations as to where you are in store, potentially even having you know a store, location based notifications or serving you, serving you those personalized recommendations as you are around the store. I think, if you want to see the most digital store, one of the most digital savvy stores. I would recommend going to see the H&M store in Stratford.
Speaker 3:I was at an event yesterday. I am at a lot of events, aren't I? I'm talking about that quite a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, avoiding real work. So I was at an event yesterday with the UK CEOo of h&m and he he said that that is the most digital savvy based store that they've got in the group, kind of at stratford, and that's where you can actually have digital mirrors, where you can go in standing in front of the mirrors and actually try different digital outfits on heard about this.
Speaker 3:I haven't seen it, yeah so I I definitely think we need to um, I think I need to give that store a visit myself. So I think. But I think also, one thing that definitely isn't going anywhere anytime soon is human interaction. I think what I believe many retailers are looking at is a way to use technology to give that into the power of the staff associates, you know, to make the staff associates' lives much, much easier, to give the human interaction this. You know this constant sort of feed that I see of AI replacing lots of things. You know, I don't see retailers ever thinking that that's going to happen in the store.
Speaker 3:I think it's still going to be a human interaction, as I said, with social creatures, with herd animals, and I think what will happen is the technology will enable the humans in store to create a fantastic service.
Speaker 2:That will be an interesting one to see play out. So if we think, then, that over the course of the next five years, retailers have got a huge amount to do, uh, and actually it will be very, very beneficial. So all of these technology changes are designed to increase sales and help drive their margins. Um, that's something that's been really difficult for retailers, the past two or three years margins in particular, we know. So, in your view, how does mindset trump technology when you're aiming for that kind of friction-free commerce experience that you've just described, with all the amazing personalization that comes with it?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think, um, I think ultimately it comes down to where do they think the gains, where does the return on investment come from those decisions? And I think because ultimately that will help those organizations drive technology change. So I'll give you an example. We were speaking to a beauty retailer and they identified they do have click and collect right now, but the click and collect process is so convoluted as I said earlier on, it's so convoluted and so difficult to recall an online transaction in store when a customer turns up to pick up their item that they felt that. And add to that, to be able to place an online order was also equally difficult.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And so it's out of stock here, but I'll create an online order for you. Now. This particular beauty retailer tended to have super busy times and so, because that online order was so difficult to place, they lost the sale. Now they identified that maybe on average in those busiest stores which was probably up to 30 to 50 stores on the busy weekends Friday, Saturday, Sunday they were probably losing four sales every day in every store, probably losing four sales every day in every store. Now that then multiplied in terms of their average order value and the profitability of every basket, that multiplied to a crazy, crazy increase in revenue, like hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of increased revenue as a result of if you can make that process really slick and really easy, there is going to be an uplift. And and that crazy number we said, okay, let's not pretend you're going to convert all four, let's let's just pretend you'll convert one okay one sale per per store per friday, saturday, sunday, and it.
Speaker 3:That powered the business case pretty much for that kind of transformation, and I think that's what we'll see. I think that's what we'll see is that there has to be a means to an end. I think uh, you know, with some of the we can't have technology for technology's sake, and we've seen examples where that that just does not work. It's got to be good for the customer, it's got to be good for the staff in the stores and ultimately give a return. And that's where I think you know where we'll have the constant balance between well, that innovation looks really cool, it's this much money, but is it actually gonna?
Speaker 2:is. It has to be a really clear business case, absolutely them and the consumer. Um, and composable has been. We've talked about this already, but composable has been a big topic. You and I talked about this already, but composable has been a big topic. You and I talked about composable 2.0. And so my question is if we tackle what seems to be the composable myth, why is it that composable isn't automatically going to be long and expensive in your view? Because that is often a misconception, maybe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the truth is, is tim's that it can be, I think. I think if the composer, if, if the journey to composable is um, the decision making during that journey is um, is flawed. Or perhaps you know that that journey is impacted by technology and architectural decisions, you know, which might have been made for good intentions. You know we've always done it that way, or you know that might be detrimental to our business. What that can lead to is a composable journey being really long and really expensive, because some of these, some of these I say some of these data flows that they are very, very complex and so. But but there is a different way. I think you know, and you know one of our fantastic customers that we've got to see to is osprey l, so Osprey London kind of handbags and accessories retailer. They've got around 14, 15 stores in the UK and they, a number of years ago, began their composable journey. But what they decided to do was to break that composable. They broke it down into the smaller elements and so they were able to change their, their erp system and pos system. First they managed to get through that particular project on time and on budget and then their name began to innovate further after that. So they've now moved on to relaunching their website, um, with another swedish uh, um kind of friend of ours, which is a Swedish e-com player called Centra. It is a beautiful website and they're now moving on to a loyalty, a loyalty solution, moving forward. But again, the Centra project that was also on time on budget.
Speaker 3:And so I think, because of the way in which you can decide to, to go down the route of composable, I think the, the, the decisions that you make, are as important as the technology choices and how you integrate. And I think things like the, the emergence in the last, I would say, five years, and probably even more steeper in the last two or three years, the emergence of integration platforms, um, the ipads, uh kind of part of the industry, um, patchworks is probably one of the ones in the uk that we know kind of kind of, uh, kind of the most, and they are making composable, um, you know, easier by having pre-built, pre-built connected to different types of of technologies. That just needs configuration or perhaps another sort of element of development, bespoke development, to make it work for your business, and so I think so there's different platforms that are helping it, but I think it's the decision-making during that technology kind of project is probably as important as the technology choices okay, well, jim will be pleased with the plug there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to send him a little invoice for that, I reckon. Um. So what you're talking about really is the um, the oms, the point of sale, the pim, integrations which allow it to be almost plug and play, or low code no code is the other terminology. That. That's what you're suggesting is going to help, uh, collapse the project timelines, which, yeah, in turn, is going to help get them to value creation quicker, in theory I think so, but there's always a compromise, though tim as well.
Speaker 3:It's easy to say there's, there's, there's only a massive benefit to low, no code or or or to the composable journey, but there is always going to be compromises that the retailer has to make, because the whole idea of composable and low code, no code and pre-built connectors is that it's built for many, not for few, and so, therefore, if your business is just slightly different, you might be having to make compromises, and that's either compromises in how you run as a business, the workflows that you have internally as a business. That oversimplification might mean that you can't offer the same way that you've done before. On the other side, you've also. Then you could continue to offer what you've done before. Uh, on the other side, you've also. Then you could continue to offer what you've done before, but that's going to take a bit more time. It's going to take a bit more time of bespoke development.
Speaker 3:Perhaps you might need agency help to, to, to make sense of these pre-built connectors and put a lens of your, your, your retail, your way of doing business over that. And so I think, yeah, there's, there's. It's not just a a one way street of you know sort of everybody doing the conga. You know, lovely composable world, there's compromises involved here. You know, and I think that's maybe again I think composable commerce and omni-channel and all of all of these buzzwords that I think they're. They're all fatigued because we just continue to talk about them as if there's no downside.
Speaker 3:And I think they're they're all fatigued because we just continue to talk about them as if there's no downside and I think you know there often is compromise in some shape or form, and I think that's why I think we we try to, we try to have those upfront conversations and fairly direct conversations up front, because we don't want to get down the line to find that it's, it's um, it's not the rosy picture that they thought it was going to be and on the notes of uh buzzwords that have been overused, omni-channel was something that uh I'm a third maybe heard that seven, eight years ago and it's been a huge buzzword and we talked about this the first time we caught up and I think what you said is that that particular thing, omni channel, will effectively disappear in your view.
Speaker 2:So I'd be interested to know, if it does, what's going to replace omni channel?
Speaker 3:it's a, really it's a. It's a very, very good question. Um, I heard a retailer described it. You know we were at.
Speaker 3:We were at a conference, another event at a conference, um, and it was called the omni-channel conference, and like four or five retailers in a row all said, oh, I hate the, I hate the word omni-channel. And I saw, I saw the event organizers sort of shifting awkwardly, awkward, awkwardly in their seats to say, okay, maybe we should change the name of this thing. Um, and it was the, the retail of browns, I think it was the ceo or the uk and the browns who said it should just be called retail. Now, I think we can maybe come up with something a little bit more imaginative than that, but, um, but I think it's rather than give it a name, if you'll indulge me, tim, rather than give it a name as to what it will be. I think it's just around treating the customer regardless of channels. You know the channel shouldn't, really it's a factor, but it's the customer experience that matters most and the channels are a part of that, but it isn't necessarily their own thing, and I think that's where Omnichannel it still gives the impression that it's siloed.
Speaker 3:You've got your online transactions over here and you've got your store over here. Oh, and we'll just build a bridge between the two and just by offering both online and in-store and maybe some bridge in between, suddenly you're an omnichannel retailer.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 3:But, as I said earlier on, just because you offer Click and Collect, if it's terrible experience, then what good is that? You know you might be an omnichannel retailer but it's actually a poor experience and I'm sure we've all got examples of where the click and collect kind of journey is horrendous, you know. So it's just because you're omnichannel doesn't mean you're doing good retail, and that's why I think, just maybe you know, obviously the channels are important but it's more to do with the overall customer experience that you're giving, and that experience layer sits across every channel.
Speaker 2:But will Omnichannel actually disappear if there's still always predominantly one major channel? So you take all the historical high street retailers their main channel for revenue generation is still the high street in store. Jim shark's probably the opposite, because it started as an online store. So isn't it going to be difficult for omni channel to disappear as a concept if you're still driving 70 of your revenue from one channel?
Speaker 3:but I think what that does is it? I think omni channel? I think is still, I think, having availability, having an experience that goes across multiple channels. You could still call it multi-channel, if you sorry, omni-channel if you'd like. I just think thinking about it differently in a, a customer, you know, thinking about the customer experience at its heart, because we haven't talked about social, for example. You know, social, the social channel is, is um, still a, a channel which is, is still so young, um, tiktok shop, potentially, I think it was, you know, like less than like 18 months ago, tiktok shop didn't exist, you know. And so that is a whole different channel, a whole different learning and a whole different generation um, that is going to have different shopping experiences and different, different approach, different ways of interacting with the re, with those retailers. So I think that that's where I the reason why I think omnichannel is maybe sticks in the throat a little bit yeah for for some of these retailers, because it's it's.
Speaker 3:It's just been used as a I don't know. It's just been used as a, as a single thing, a single civil bullet, that is that that is going to solve, solve everyone's problems, and I think it's a bit more nuanced than that yeah, I, I think you're probably right.
Speaker 2:It's just interesting to to pick it apart a bit. One of the things that I discovered more recently is um, online social selling in real time, uh, like qvc, um, on social platforms. Now I I put out a post about this, and it doesn't seem to be getting as much traction in in europe as it is in asia, and I'd be interested to get your view on whether you think that's going to be something we'll see more of I think it's um.
Speaker 3:It's user generated content, isn't it? So it's? It's that. That is a. That is something which has been increasing and and something which we've seen. You know, even you know my um. You know I'm avid interest in golf.
Speaker 3:For example, and, and, and many, uh, many years ago, up until very recently, if you were a golf equipment manufacturer, you would pay the very top golfers in the world. You know, maybe in the top 100, you would pay them to use their golf equipment and that was seen as a sponsorship, almost like a sponsorship package. That revenue, that money that they were paying maybe to the top 100 players, has now completely been diverted away from all, but maybe the top 10. So the 90 that were getting the sponsorships, they now can maybe use the equipment for free, but they won't get paid for it, paid for it, and all of that sponsorship money has been completely diverted to user generated content, which is, you know, youtube, um tiktok and all of the, the hype that goes with um, those particular videos that get millions and millions of views. My son is glued to them, you know um.
Speaker 3:That kind of shift in how user generated content could actually then drive shopping behavior, you know is is really, really interesting. There's a company called Bizarre Voice that are specialists in that and you know to hear them talk about the way in which that user generated content can be created and curated by retailers to generate further revenue and, crucially, it's attributed. It's an attributed revenue stream so you can actually see from that user-generated content it's generated X amount in sales. So it's a really interesting area. That the social channels and user-generated content is an interesting area for many retailers and I think Gymshark are the ones that are probably in the retail space. Social channels and user generated content is an interesting area for many retailers and I think gymshark, of the ones that are probably in the retail space that I I think is is a is a really good example. So their influencers that they have as a gymshark influencer they've probably got about 20, I think, maybe more you can go on their website and you can see all the influencers.
Speaker 3:They've got their own profile. They've got their own social following. There was a um, there was a lady on there who did a 5k. She said I'm going to do a 5k in this park. Like 5 000 people turned up. It was it. Like it's crazy, you know. So it's, I think. Um, you know that that that side of things you know, because obviously, in dealing with physical retail, we don't necessarily see all that much, but we do have the ability for retailers to use influencer codes when people are actually in store. But that is a really interesting area as to how that develops, because you've got that social following. But also, if people know they're being sold to, is there an there an authenticity problem there too? So, yeah, it's just a really fascinating area, I think yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:uh, I am susceptible to instagram, uh, and buying things on instagram that I don't necessarily need and then turning up I'm like, yeah, it's not ideal, but but it also does bring me stuff that I find of interest, so the algorithm works, um, so, yeah, double-edged sword, but, um, if, if we could look at briefly again at physical retail, it does fall in line with what we're talking about. So, if we assume that the retailers need to get to value creation as quickly as possible because of budget restraints and that's part of the conversation In your view, and we talked about things like returns, hubs with repairs, rental and using the in-store facilities to facilitate those things, which would you advise would give the quickest roi to retailers that considering their options at the moment?
Speaker 3:I think, um, I think there's there's a few things and of course I'm going to be hugely biased towards the features and kind of what c2 can do and I I make no apologies for that um, I think the things that we see um gain some of the most returns for retailers is actually reducing the amount of tasking the store associates have to do in store. Now, the tasking is all of those store operation tasks that you may see when you're in store, but ultimately they should be in the background. They should be in the background because most of the store staff should be dealing with customers and selling to customers and providing that customer experience. You know, those great customer experiences is the majority of their job. I'm speaking to a 200 store retailer just now and they told me that 70% of the time that their store associates are actually doing the tasking work.
Speaker 3:Okay, their store associates are actually doing the tasking work. Okay, so this is receiving inbound shipments to make sure you can update the stock values when they're received in store Maybe kind of finance information so they have to process refunds in such a way that takes up a lot of time when new prices or products are added. They're having takes up a lot of time, um, when, uh, new prices or or products are added, they're having to spend a lot of time kind of in in the background of the of the of the pos, to actually update the tables, you know, update the solution, because the particular solution they have is a little bit of an aged one. So they're spending 70 of their time doing non-sales activity and that's where I think the greatest return is. And so one of our flagship customers that we were able to announce last year was Puma, and so, while they don't have many retail outlets in the UK, I think they've got about 15, globally they've got like thousands, thousands of stores, and so we've been selected as the global POS kind of point of sale provider, which is totally awesome.
Speaker 3:And we've visited the store in Carnaby Street and they said that the old process to receive inbound shipments and they're receiving thousands of units, thousands of SKUs every week. The old process with a printed off manifest, skus every week, the old process with a printed off manifest ticking off the items that they receive. It used to take them maybe two, two and a half hours every single shipment, three times a week, in every store. With having something modern, with having something which can handle both store operation tasks as well as your checkout, which a modern point of sale can do, it can have those different use cases. They've actually reduced that time to less than half an hour Every store, three times a week. You know that tasking time has been transformational for them, you know, and every time we've gone into the store we've, you know that is the thing that the store manager says if I was to pick. You know one thing, it's this yeah.
Speaker 3:Just removing the tasking time within the store. So I think that's where the biggest return could be is giving your store staff more time selling.
Speaker 2:Okay, and this may well then answer the next question, because we couldn't have a podcast and not talk about ai. Obviously, of course, and I was looking for what would you give us the top, uh, concrete example for use of ai, uh, in store, and there's lots and lots of uses, but what would be your number one choice right now if you had to pick one?
Speaker 3:yeah, I've found over the last 18 months kind of into this part of retail is that it feels like retailers are trying to find a problem for ai to solve.
Speaker 3:Um, uh, because everybody, because we should be, we should be using ai because we should.
Speaker 3:That was my first comment, but I would say that the bits that I see are really exciting is around product recommendations, and so you know, right now, as soon as you everybody has seen it for many, many years, but I think it being more sophisticated and in real time, in store of when you are a recognized customer, for those recommendations to be personalized in a way of using those algorithms, using machine learning, with the old AI, machine learning, to understand what is the best possible recommendation for that particular customer.
Speaker 3:I I think that is the the really the really exciting part, because right now, when you're going in um, if you're using an old style um, if you're not using something modern which can provide you at least with product recommendations, of actually saying you know, customers who bought this, here's some related products, here's how to, here's how to complete the outfit, you know can do that now, but in the future I think we're going to be able to seamlessly bring in both customer-based recommendations as well as product-based recommendations and actually have almost build your wardrobe. Build your wardrobe sort of there, right there in store, using mobile POS with an iPad or with something, to actually then create something which is using that machine learning and AI to give the best possible. Next action, which I think will ultimately drive sales.
Speaker 2:And do you see this as the consumer having this information fed to them by their device, or do you see this as a new skill set for the sales staff, having the information fed to them so they can upsell and say, hey, have you thought about this? Have you thought about these shoes? Have you thought about this accessory?
Speaker 3:I think for the, I think both in the case that the, the consumer has a really strong affinity with the brand. I think for those, um, for those brands where you are just a casual shopper yes, yes, you might have an account, you're not going to download an app, you're not going to download the brand app and keep it on your phone but for those that you've got a really strong affinity with, you feel like it's you, it's your values and you'd shop there forever, I think you would maybe have the app downloaded to your phone and therefore, you could use the two in combination, I think. I think it's really easy to say oh, yeah, put it on the app.
Speaker 3:People don't keep apps on their phone. I know this from my time in mobile messaging industry. It's something crazy like 80 89 of all apps are either unused or deleted within three months or something. It's, it's it. I'm probably going to get pulled up on that stat now, because because I'm sure I'm pulling it from an old memory of mine from from uh, you know, from 2023 backwards. But yeah it, people, the real estate on someone's phone is highly, highly guarded and people do not keep the apps on their phone for very long.
Speaker 2:And it's also for me. Anyway, looking at it personally, we're entering into a world where I think people are actively trying to be off their phones more, so I don't want to be out shopping having the physical experience, probably out with my family, family, then being stuck to my phone. So I would certainly prefer that personalization to be if you've got the salesperson who no longer having to do 70 of their time doing back office admin work, out selling that that means they need to develop different skill sets, they're going to be doing a different job, right yeah, exactly okay.
Speaker 2:Exactly Okay, interesting. So if we talk about use cases, so we were talking about some of the recent rollouts that you guys have done, proving that composable projects can be both quick and cost effective. So you've mentioned one with Centra. Have you got any other examples of the rollouts being on time to budget and that help the clients understand that it is possible if the right business decisions are made up front?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so one of our US-based customers, if I go over the pond, is a sports retailer called Rally House.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So they have got now upwards of, I think, 400 stores now One of the fastest growing retailers in the US, actually. And so, if you can imagine, in every city in America you've got four or five major sports teams that is affiliated with that particular city in basketball, baseball, american football and, in many cases, ice hockey, and so what their business is to provide the sports memorabilia, shirts and all of those other things in each and every one of those cities for those sports teams, boasting that they often have more merchandise than the actual teams themselves because of their business model. And so also in uh, and they're live, all of those stores are live over 18, 19 american states, um, and so they were able to use that. You know that they're now ambassadors of mac, which is the uh alliance that has been put together which is trying to push forward composable thinking. So microservices, api, first, cloud native and headless that's the acronym for Mac, but it's an organization that is a membership organization, which is of tech vendors that are aligned with that vision, and so they're fully Mac. They're fully Mac sort of enabled, and that what enabled that to do is actually roll out those stores, which is a brand new POS.
Speaker 3:I think they signed the contract in April. They were live in August. You know April yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And it was like over 300 stores. You know 250, 300 stores in in 18, 19 different States, and just so for those uninitiated, each and every state has different tax liabilities associated to the sales tax. There's lots of complication, but you know, um, that is, I think, one of our best examples, and we got a full video case study online on c2.com, if you want to go on to have a look at it, showing that with the right technology decisions and with the right kind of investment in both Raleigh House's team but also the investment for our project teams in CETU, the projects can be delivered, that value creation can be very, very fast.
Speaker 2:And are there any particular metrics? Obviously the time scale. We've got many particular metrics that you are able to talk about, that you potentially also talk to future clients, uh about, from that particular example not that we're commercially able to say on a live podcast tim no, I thought I'd ask.
Speaker 2:I thought I'd ask. Um, it's interesting. I mean, that's a very uh, there's a very quick delivery. Um, presumably a big chunk of that comes from the upfront conversation around what the business outcomes, uh, and what is the technology um stack that you you want to utilize? Yes, was it quite a complicated um set of technologies?
Speaker 3:yeah, that's right. So that's there. They had um, obviously had that they had. Their erp system was net suite um, and so we had to, you know, ensure that our data flows were working seamlessly with those. And I think they also had a number of different other solutions. I forget the actual name of the technologies for their order management, for their warehousing, but I think also is I think there's maybe that fast time. It's always evolving, it's an evolving picture and I think we're continuing to evolve with Rally House to actually further develop their tech stack. So you know whether that is loyalty, whether that is um, you know how they're doing their unifying their payments or their in-store loyalty. It's. It's something which is which we pride ourselves on is that we're able to um, we're able to work with you over the long term. It isn't just a right project implementation done.
Speaker 2:It's usually over a phase one, phase two, phase three, um kind of solution, because that then allows you to break down what you really need for that phase one and then start to innovate from there okay, so the the other thing that that we haven't touched on, that we talked about before, which I definitely want to uh finish on, would be the differences between the nordics and the uk, and I've been doing a lot more work in sweden and finland and a little bit in denmark in the past 18 months, so I'm starting to get a feel for what I think the differences are, and you know I spoke about this previously. Um, what would you if you could transplant one swedish habit into a uk business? What would it be and why?
Speaker 3:I think it's the Swedish. The cultural side of things is dead interesting and from working from in that mobile messaging space, you know the opt-ins, the marketing preferences, also featured a huge part of of my life in that industry as well. And if I could take one thing, it would be how, uh, how open the scandinavians are just be from a cultural, just because the way their society works are with sharing customer data. So in sweden, for example, the the, every time you go into into a store you've got a known purchase where you're able to recognize this is James and he's actually a member and we've added the transaction to his account. And then an unknown transaction where someone's just come in, scanned it and they're off. The unknown transaction leaves a lot of value on the table because you're not then associating it to my account and therefore be able to produce something, recommend products to me in the future, which is all of that data building up that picture of what I like to do and what I like to purchase and therefore what the next best action is.
Speaker 3:In Sweden, in the UK, I would say the average of known purchases is probably somewhere between 45 and 55% when we look at C2 data. So that means usually half the time you don't know who's shopping with you. Now, that can be much lower for certain retailers and it can be a little bit higher for others. In Sweden it's like 90% plus and it's because of the, the cultural, the society of actually having sharing your data is much more open, you know, and and just much more. Oh well, it's just not an issue, whereas I think you know, the amount of people complaining because they've had too many text messages and they want to opt out, you know, is so much higher in the uk, I think, and therefore that is what's driving that unknown and known purchases.
Speaker 3:And that's why, because of things like cookies, cookies legislation and privacy legislation, that's why that is also another, you know, huge opportunity for retailers is if you can increase that first party data collection at the point of purchase, to begin to remarket to them, to begin to, you know, increase the lifetime value of that customer. It's gold dust, you know. And that's another thing I write and again, shameless plug we see C2 customers, because we've got mobility, using tablets to be able to provide to the store associates things like oh, just, you know, type your email in here, just by flipping the iPad, just flipping it towards the customer. Just something as simple as that. But also we're developing a loyalty solution, which is called C2 Recognition, which enables you to use your payment provider to actually then create on board and recognized returning customers using a digital loyalty card that sits in the apple wallet yeah that obviously you've got your boarding passes and all that, so it's not new.
Speaker 3:It's not new information, but it is new for in-store retail yeah because online loyalty, they've got it pretty good.
Speaker 3:If you try to leave the website, it's offering you to sign up to a newsletter for 10 off. It's not so easy in store, especially when there's a queue. So imagine a world in which you actually tap. You use your Apple Pay to pay for your items. The payment terminal will search for a loyalty card automatically, that being asked are you a member? No, you don't need to do that. It will search for it and if it's there, it will add it to the basket and your checkout becoming a known purchase, all through a single tap yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:That will make a huge difference, and I've always wondered why that wasn't the case. I think some companies focused on receipts um, maybe five or six years ago, maybe even a bit longer on making them digital. And it's not just about the receipt, it's about retaining all the information and the exchange between the retailer and me. And if that is a dual exchange, where my loyalty card is accepted and then my receipt is automatically tracked digitally against that loyalty card, that's going to make my life easier because I have to carry my physical receipt around with me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And the world of digital receipts is another fascinating area. We work with a partner of ours called Slip and the founder there, tash Grossman. She's utterly amazing. But that whole idea of using the digital receipt as a marketing tool, you know is is also an area which seems to be untapped, you know and so. So we've got a really good close relationship with with slip and their solution is fantastic. So definitely would um recommend that solution to anyone but but that idea of making in-store loyalty just that much more easier, because right now there's so much friction to it and it's so much harder to generate that in-store loyalty, um, and we, we, we believe using payment technology, using that kind of technology, is going to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. So that's the advantage Sweden has over the UK. Yeah, if I flip it around, what advantages does the UK retail sector have over Sweden in your view at the moment?
Speaker 3:I think it has to be scale. You know, even if you just looked at the, you know the GDP of the UK. You know, versus the Scandinavian countries, I think you know, with the scale of the UK those retailers are able to also experiment, you know, with the number of stores that they have. You know. So I think that's where. But also, as I was with yesterday the UK CEOs for a breakfast event, they presented the UK CEOs for IKEA and for H&M at this Swedish Chamber of Commerce event and I think we don't necessarily here in the uk quite take to quite understand the place that london has within the eyes of these global retailers. You know it's the jewel in the crown. They describe the ikea, um, uk ceo. They've just opened a brand new store. If you can believe it, you've seen all those out of town stores, um, you know, in the funneling that they do and huge warehouses. They've actually opened a store on oxford street within the last two or three weeks as a, as a store to be front of mind for uk retail, for uk consumers. And the uk ceo described that store opening, which I think only happened like two, three weeks ago, um, as the most, one of the most symbolic store openings in in for ikea, total for ikea group of recent times. Wow, and the uk ceo of h&m described london is their brand city. Now it's a brand city and you know that's where most of that's where their innovation is.
Speaker 3:We talked about their digital store in stratford earlier on. That's where most of that's where their innovation is. We talked about their digital store in Stratford earlier on. You know so, I think you know. And the amazing stat that every five minutes, in that half square mile where Oxford Street, regent Street, bond Street, every five minutes, 65,000 people pass by that part of London every five minutes, 200 million a year. You know. That sort of scale, I think, is what makes UK retail so exciting. And you better be on top of your game. You know, because, as Henrik, the CEO of H&M, said, you know you've got to scream, you've got to be there, you've got to be pushing yourself forward each and every day. And we talked about the challenges of retail, no more so than trying to kind of um, you know, you know, keep up the fight with all the other retailers in that part of london, that's for sure amazing.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, james. That was insightful and, uh yeah, for me really, really interesting. I think it will be for all of our listeners and viewers. To apologies, we have to finish. I could probably go on for another hour or so no, thank you, tim, for the for the invitation.
Speaker 3:It's been pleasure yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 2:Thanks, james thanks.
