The FODcast

Nerds Who Talk: The Tech Behind Big Brand Migrations with Bob Rockland

• Tim Roedel and James Hodges • Season 7 • Episode 13

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What makes a 20-year veteran development team bet everything on Shopify?

According to Bob Rockland, Co-Founder of Code (now part of Domaine), the answer lies in both economics and technology. In the latest episode of The FODcast, Bob takes us inside Code’s journey to becoming the world’s largest dedicated Shopify partner - and why no client they’ve migrated in the last seven years has ever gone back.

We cover:

  • The Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) myths CFOs often miss – and why Salesforce can be 35% more expensive than Shopify
  • How Code migrated a well-known retail brand from Salesforce to Shopify in just six months
  • Why payment service provider (PSP) fees are often the single biggest hidden cost for enterprise merchants
  • The three actions every brand should take to reduce platform costs: cut redundant apps, renegotiate regularly, and avoid long-term contracts
  • Where AI fits (and doesn’t) in enterprise commerce – and what to expect from Shopify’s rapid B2B roadmap

Bob also shares how Code’s TCO calculator helps brands uncover their true costs with surprising accuracy, giving enterprise teams the clarity they need to make smarter platform decisions.

If you’re exploring a platform migration or want to understand the real economics of Shopify vs. legacy platforms, this episode of The FODcast is a must-listen.

Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.

Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/




SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to season seven of the FODCommust, the podcast focused on the future of digital commerce hosted by Simply Commerce. Season seven promises to continue to bring you some of the industry's brightest minds across the globe as we unpick the sector and where it's heading. From war stories to strategy and technology deep lives to future trends. We cover it all as we continue our journey to have one of the most popular podcasts in commerce. Before we start, if you enjoy our content, please do hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening on. Like and share on socials.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to another episode of the Fodcast, where we are going to dive into the future of digital commerce. And today I'm very, very pleased to be joined by Bob Rockland. Bob is the co-founder of Code, recently acquired by Domain. And Bob and I are going to go through some of the uh some of the insights around Shopify and the current market and the situations he sees it. Bob, it would be really good if you could give the audience a bit of an introduction about who you are and where you've come from.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thanks, Tim. Glad to be on this um podcast or FODCAS. Yes, I'm Bob from uh Netherlands. Uh we live in Delft, which is uh south of uh Amsterdam. And we started Code in uh 2004, five roughly. So we're like 20 years in the in the business. Me and my business partner Wouter. Um, we developed all kinds of things, and then fast forward to 2017, we we did too many things, we didn't have any focus. And coincidentally, we came across Shopify and we started to like the product. We did some projects, uh, tried a little bit for your uh information. Nobody in the Netherlands ever heard about Shopify. There were a few drop shippers, that's about it. But we start we started to like the platform a lot and tried to sell it, and uh slowly we became uh good at it and started to grow the business. Um, so 2018 we decided to go 100% to Shopify, and we became plus partner, I think one of the first in um continental Europe, and then we moved on and on and on, and um yeah, really liked it. We replatformed a lot of a lot of shops, like hundreds from Magento mainly, and lately Salesforce. Uh, a lot of custom builds we migrate. Um, I think we're very technical savvy because of our long history building complex stuff. We now do Shopify, and uh yeah, and like uh competition is growing fast, especially since 2023 in the Netherlands and continental Europe. So now almost every agency seems to do Shopify. So we had to make a move, and then we uh we got a phone call from Domain and uh we gladly accepted, and now we're pretty proud to be the as they say or we say the largest dedicated Shopify agency in the world with 300 plus. We were at 65, domain with 250. So together, yeah, that's where we are, and still continuing, and we are mainly responsible. Me and Wouter for uh Northern Europe.

SPEAKER_01:

So exactly Wouter's the other co-founder.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, Wouter's my uh co-founder, so we know each other from the Delft University. He's mainly doing the inside things and uh keeping track of everything, which is extremely well. So uh very proud of him, and uh yeah, we're very young and young, I think. So that's that makes us uh yeah 20 years plus in the business together. It's it's longer than both our uh our wives.

SPEAKER_01:

So I think that's that's that's uh it's it's some achievement for sure. Um we've got we've got a few topics we want to talk about before we go into them. Just out of interest, what was it that made you decide to go full Shopify? Because 2018, that's a long time before Shopify really started to kick off.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, especially also because Shopify wasn't that uh how do you say not that uh good, maybe, or there were a lot of things like with the checkout and uh serving several markets. But the thing we liked the most, um, I don't think it's the best platform. I don't know which the best platform out there, but we fell in love with the software and how it was built. And like Wauti likes to say, we would have done it the same way, right? We would have built it the same way, the same uh there's an API that always gives an answer, which we never see, like and and that means like uh it's a good tool for us, it's a really good tool, and we understand the philosophy. Still, we still do, even after Shopify. They still invest a lot, a lot into development. So that's why we keep on uh supporting this, and um, and another one which may I may mention later, what I really really like code is very developer focused. We're called code, right? We never did any design and just coding, coding, coding. And our developers have a lot of fun doing Shopify because all the non-not fun stuff like scaling, um cycling to the office, which you did in the past, to add an extra server for a busy client, security, uptime, and so on, it's all done by Shopify. So we get to do the fun stuff, and most of the hours we spent or our developers spent is like let's say 80% more revenue for the clients, right? Faster website and configurate there, more countries, and so on. You wouldn't believe if if Shopify Editions drops, everybody is like, Bob, have you seen this? What I can do now with B2B, what I can do now with configurate this. The new API I was dreaming about API call is there now. So, and also developers in our company really stay somewhere there for over 15 years. That says something, right? A lot over 10 years. So they they just got us pre-Shopify and let's say post-Shopify, or no, yeah, they've seen this change and they like it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a good tenure. Uh, nominate developers stay with companies for 10 plus years for sure. Um, if we can dig in a little bit deeper to the kind of replatforming and some of the insights you have, in your view, what's the the biggest cost or the biggest hidden cost that the merchants are discovering after they're replatforming?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's a good question. What I do see if they come from a legacy stack or like a custom stack, they're more used, they they they build it once, right? They build it and then they pay the developer agency and uh it's there and works, and then they only pay for or only they pay for updates every month, and maybe if they grow, they have extra server costs. Most some have to be convinced that that the costs rise with your growth, right? Because most Shopify and most apps are SaaS, so you rented, and they're based on revenue, on orders, or number of emails, number of support tickets, and so on. So they have to get used to that uh that rising cost, but the cost arise uh less fast than your revenue, right? So, in in time, the percentage cost uh the cost of running your store divided by your revenue goes down, which you see in our TCO calculations. And I believe as an ex developer, I believe in investing in companies because the money you you pay to those partners and to Shopify, uh Shopify spends a lot into again, a lot into development. I think with 4,500 developers, so your money is well spent, right? We share you simply share the cost. But that's something uh some merchants have to be convinced of.

SPEAKER_01:

And that takes a while to convince them. Is that one of the the hurdles to get them on board?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh pre-launch, it takes a while to convince them post-launch, they're happy. Yeah, especially after four to five months, they get used to all the incoming orders, uh, ease of mind, no update stress, payment works, card works, you know. The conversion often goes up. Not always, but mostly goes up. Everyone's then happy. Yes, and I think also they get uh peace of mind, right? And if your mind is free of stress, thinking about how do I do my next uh Black Friday launch, they they get inventive, they think of new products, they have more time to do creative. Uh and that that's also why I think moving to Shopify uh helps you a lot. Not only because it relieves you from not uh not fun things to do.

SPEAKER_01:

And something else that we talked about before was uh back in the day with your record store. Um, we've talked about that conversation. Oh, yeah, that's yeah. And I think I think it'd be nice to draw some comparisons just to see what kind of things you're seeing now in 2025 with e-com and shopify that you can relate to when you put a record store online because that was quite a big thing, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but that was 1999. It's nice you remember memory of remember me of that. There's some file maker on the on the Mac Apple Mac. But that for instance, there was no payment methods. Payment was by uh uh um say this by wiring, right? The people would order and then you sent them the wiring info and they would send the money and then you would send the records. So that's a big difference. Also, hosting was super expensive, like really, really, really expensive, especially when you had a database was was like super expensive. But those are changes, but that that's been really a while ago. So I don't know. Only thing I I do remember I was thinking vinyl is coming back, and that was 25 years too early because it's coming back too.

SPEAKER_01:

But that's where I did learn to develop, so that's something I you need to set up another record store on Shopify, it sounds like if vinyl's coming back.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, yes, but I was a bit um uh I made a hobby, I made my job, right? And I got a little too high on my own supply, so I have a lot of records. So no, I'm happily uh uh as a hobby again, and I I do see some shops which are really good, but I also see some record shops because I still buy a lot that can improve, and I I sometimes try to to uh to call them and see if you want to move to Shopify, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you've gone from back in the day with the records to steering 10 mil plus GMV clients. Um how how has that transition happened? Can you give us a bit more insight into how you've got there?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, uh actually gradually because we started Shopify, we did really small clients on Shopify Basic, Shopify Advanced, you know, of course small, like 100k a month, 200k a month. And um uh as Shopify is part of the tech stack, we we could easily move up. And the biggest first ones we did it. So people ask you, can you do one million products in Shopify? We did one guy selling tractor parts, like one million tractor parts. And Shopify is easy, right, to import, and also because we have the knowledge about doing stuff like that in our 20 years' existence. We could use that knowledge to uh to scale up, and also what's very important is not only about building a theme or storefront, more and more we see like 80 percent, 70, 80 percent of the work is actually with our solution engineers connecting at the bigger brands at 10 mil million plus brands to to their PIM, to their um to the ERP, to their fulfillment. And that's where I think we make a difference because um uh most shop agents can build a theme, a storefront, but on on our average project, we have more solution engineers than than front-end developers. Oh, really? Yeah, that's a recent trend change. No, that comes with the bigger brands, yeah. Yeah, of course. And also if you have to migrate uh uh let's say 200,000 products from a custom stack with uh I don't know one million reviews and uh uh a lot of data, client data and and uh CDP data to Shopify and its its partners. That's that's uh that's uh a hell of a job, but we're good at that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And you're still uh very much hands-on, um, still involved in the tech. And what what is it that keeps you still in that hands-on place rather than just running the agency?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I like to do to see a lot of what people build, so I'm involved also with a few stores, which I think is good. Many, many uh people at code, not many, but a few are also running some store of some kind uh in evening hours or something in the weekend, or they yeah, and I actually promote that because they you sit on the chair of the our merchants, right? And then you notice the same thing like stock problems and uh what do we scale and what do we do with payments? And if you talk to those people, you get a lot of knowledge, which which I then use in my sales talks to the clients because you sit not opposite of them but next to them, then more often you you understand what they do, yeah, and then what I like to do is try bi weekly or weekly walk past our developers and see what they develop and uh where they're proud of, and they really like to show you. The other day we did an impressive speed update on our own theme, which is really cool. And the next hour I had a client call and I just uh show them, right? Because I'm ex-developer, I can click around a little bit, and and then and the the merchant says, Whoa, what are you doing? This is super nice. I'll sign a deal. So that's that's that is really what what helps. And so we're nerds, right?

SPEAKER_01:

We we also used to call ourselves social nerds, so we're nerds, but we can also talk a little bit, so yeah, that that gives us a good uh a good sphere in the company, and but it may make a big difference if you have the depth of technical and the knowledge to be able to talk to the client and explain and then so yeah, I'll say sometimes with the bigger bigger project, it gets a little also for me a little bit too complex.

SPEAKER_02:

Very social solution engineers who stand by me and help me explain stuff to uh our new clients and existing clients, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

And so by the time our podcast episode is released, you'll be able to talk openly about Carl Lagerfeld, which is uh big win for you guys. Um, it'd be good to understand why you would move that kind of enterprise fashion icon off of Salesforce. And and also I think you did it in in a very quick time. Five five months, is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, we did it in well. The plan was five months. We uh actually succeeded in six months with one month delay. Okay. And it was a big job. And mainly uh they turned to us, they they uh they want to move away from Salesforce, we which we see quite often now, because Salesforce is actually holding them back from scaling and doing stuff and releasing and merchandising and so on. And then also they told or we found out that uh Salesforce usually has a 35 percent 35 35 higher TCO than Shopify. So that's that's that's extreme, right? Especially the bigger brands. They that's there's a lot of money if you calculate that every year that comes back, and yeah, and we said we we can take it on. It's it's also a very technical uh assignment, like I said before. So it was partly front-end, but mostly back end. Migrating to 35 uh markets, eight languages. Uh migrating is is the biggest issue. All those email addresses, all those orders, everything had to go into uh into Shopify, and that was uh a big, a big job. We worked on it with 19 people. So I think that's uh how many one 19 one. I thought we said 90, 90. But that's still a lot. Yeah, that is. And I must say, Carl was is is and was a super nice client to to to work with. So uh of course, you take like one month to get used to each other, but then it went like yeah, super, super nice. So we're very proud, of course, of this iconic brand, and uh, we get a lot of attention. Uh we just launched a link in LinkedIn post about this, and already brands calling us from hey, I want the same.

SPEAKER_01:

So wow, that's uh that speaks for itself. And you kind of um answered my next question. I was going to ask about the biggest hurdles. So some of the stuff we we've talked about before is data migration, um, B2B price listing. Um but what from your perspective was the biggest hurdle in the end?

SPEAKER_02:

In this project or overall?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh in this project, in the car life project, particularly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, just mostly connecting back ends. That's that's uh the two words connecting backend stuff, and working together with uh their team is is uh it's not a challenge, but it's it's a lot of communication, a lot of project management. Yeah, making sure we're finally ready for a lot of dry runs, right? What happens if I order? So one order sets a big wheels in motion, and it all had to be perfect before we launch, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so there's a lot of uh back and integration work and management of data through that process. Yeah, makes sense. Um we've we've touched on TCO a couple of times, and it it is something that is coming up time and time and time again now, both in the conversations that I have on podcast and when I meet with clients. Um, and it's something that I think uh the end clients are putting much more focus on. Um, can you define the the TCO for us and then kind of what goes into your model?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we started to to do a TCO sheet like uh we just started like a few years ago, and uh it gradually grew, right? And now we have like uh three versions actually. We have one simple version we share with clients, and and actually that's one of the most popular versions. If you want to go deeper, we have a very complex version, which we mostly share uh in a in discovery phase. Then we go into your apps, your stack, your ERP, and all the cost related. But the simple version is actually super fun, but because in a few minutes we know your TCO and we only need to know number of orders on average per month, your AOV, uh your projected growth volume, like year over year percentage, like 10% or 20%, or some want to grow 200%, whatever you want. And then, of course, the shopware platform cost, because it's super important and it grows also. If you go over uh 625,000 a month, this also starts to rise significantly, so you have to look at that. Um, we mostly put in the usual partners people use, like for mail support, uh loyalty, stuff like that. And um inflation is a big one, and and a big one is uh PSP actually, the payment providers. That's a huge cost. Okay, on bigger clients, the PSP cost of that merchant exceeds our retainers, right? So it's an important one to talk to your clients about, or to your PSP provider. Um yes, that's actually what we what we do. Uh give it to the client, they can play around. And what oh yeah, and what they often say that's funny, that I would like to I wanted to make a sheet like that for like two two months, but I yeah, didn't have the time right now. You did it for me to do a compliment, and of course you can take it to their uh their manager to show hey, I got TCO already, and uh then the next phase we do a very complex, complex but more uh detailed TCO. And the fun thing is if we project this TCO on existing clients, because we can log in, of course, you won't show it to our of course not to our uh leads, but but if we test the TCO on existing companies, it's it's quite spot on. That means it's good, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. Right. If if if your estimate tracks with reality, um that's a really good sign for for the clients you're you're presenting it to. And they are there are there cost lines that you think the CFOs overlook regularly when they're looking at this?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh again, PSP, I think. Not all, but some uh overlook that. Um Shopify, of course, rises. Not everybody sees that. Okay, less less fast than your revenue, of course, but it rises. Um some apps are yeah, are are are expensive, and um we don't have yet added the marketing spend, which is a huge week, but it's so volatile, right? We we're working on ideas to do that. Um that's that's a bit about it. It it is hard to put in the time saved for people at the merchant, right? They might spend maybe 20 hours a month or 30 hours contacting the agency they have now or the platform they have now to to fix bugs and do updates. And those time one, it's hard to get it to TCO. We're also thinking of getting that in, also, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so opportunity cost, time spent on the things. Yeah, yeah, okay. I guess you can you can have a simple calculation assuming that they're spending X number of hours less on top.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is not always, in certain cases, not always per se cheaper going to Shopify stack. Like if you have a custom build. This is a good example. Custom builds are often one-time cost, you don't have the monthly, but you do may might have maybe two or three developers full-time, you know, helping to keep your custom stack afloat. Yeah, to keep PA. Yeah, it's hard to get into the hard. We're working on that to get it into the because that in that case, Shopify is mostly more expensive. They see, but they don't calculate the developers they have, like maybe three Salesforce developers or Magento developers on the on the payroll.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, actually, we'll come on to that. I've got another question for you around TCO um and specifics around when Salesforce might be might be Shopify. But before we get on to that, I'd be good to understand from your perspective pre and post migration, where do you think Carl Lagfeld saves the most now?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh again on on people hours, people and more time to merchandise because they also have a collection which uh changes a lot. They have a huge release beginning of October, which you will see if you look at the website. Um, and and the ability to uh to merchandise and to scale. And of course it it was 35% lower. So they will see it in a year or they'll see it when they renew or don't renew their licenses. Yeah, also the the speed was needed um launching the project because their current contract ended right around the period we launched, and those companies always want actually Shopify too, wants to renew the contract for a year, another year, another year. So that's sometimes why we get a push to to launch earlier, then uh then then yeah, then you have to re-sign the the new contract.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, makes sense. So when when would you say Salesforce as an example would be a better option than Shopify based on on the total cost of ownership?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't we never see. I've also Googled, I even asked chat, but we never never seen uh uh sales which is cheaper, but I do think really, really, really big enterprise with a very very complex tech. Um they might feel more at ease with Salesforce, like in the past, you know, you never got fired by choosing uh IBM, uh get the biggest and the most expensive for the ease of mind. I I get that in a way, and if you if the company can spend that kind of money, uh yeah, why not? But but we didn't see even see or anyone might please contact me if you see anything which is cheaper on Salesforce. I don't know, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01:

And and do you see that as one of the downfalls or or weak weaknesses of Shopify, their their inability to deal with some of the major top-end enterprise scale complex integrations?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, well, they're they're working hard on it, and we all agencies are working also hard to get up, and just like you said, we moved from uh from let's say one million merchants a year to 10 million to 50 million to some are now 300 million, and we also see that is Shopify growing, right? So they're targeting more and more uh bigger brands. I do think the the super super tech things like super heavy B2B might still be a challenge here and there, like very big catalogs. Uh there's one thing I would we'd like to go in is the automotive with the motive parts, but that's super complex, especially B2B. But that's also something we are already uh building uh proof of concepts for.

SPEAKER_01:

So and is it we kind of come on to that? The next question I was going to ask, which is around the the B2B features. So is it particular features, things like credit terms, gated pricing, are they things that change the the TCO dynamics, for example?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, not per se, because you uh again, like in the beginning, you you purchase Shopify, right? You you take a plan, Shopify Plus plan, and then that money invested is they're building new stuff all the time. So if you see the B2B pages, there's every month new features launched on the B2B, like uh payment terms, like uh uh nice forms to get new clients aboard, B2B clients on board, um uh catalogs per company, and so on and so on. So, not everything is yet in Shopify, but it will B2B will grow, it will come in at a at a pretty fast pace. And what we that's actually funny what we see with our B2B clients. For some, we have built something because it was not in Shopify B2B. Then the client spent maybe uh just an example, uh, one month of development hours with us because we thought Shopify would never build that that specific part. We launched it, and then three months later, Shopify launches it, and it is for free in the Shopify store. Client was actually so kind of amused. They said, Oh, it was actually a brilliant idea. C Shopify also built it, so but yeah, that happens actually a lot. Okay, well, now it's on the funny side, yeah. So so think of things that are will not be in B2B, and we can build it, of course. Okay, like every serious agency can build that stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

And in and talking about the the total cost of ownership again, uh, I think one of the things that would interest the audience is to know from you if you wanted to cut or reduce the TCO in your next quarter, what are the three levers or three things that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I do see a lot of um uh because also looking at the back end of some of our clients, so some really leave apps on or partners on, which is a waste, right? If you calculate that, just just uh to see what's hanging around and remove what you don't need anymore. Actually, a lot is is now into Shopify. Also, I would definitely negotiate terms every year or every six months. And if you like bigger and you go in the you go above the normal plans, you go in the talk to us, you know that right? So go and talk to us, uh plan uh then especially I would I would I would do it every six months, right? Talk to the guys, also try to prevent not always possible, of course, but try to prevent long-term contracts because there are new kids on the block, right? New apps coming, and some are really good. I'm also quite happy to see more and more comes from Europe, so really solid solid software coming from uh Eastern Europe or even Germany or the Nordics, really good software. Um, and so so that you can easily change, right? You can change your stack to uh maybe your your loyalty stack, you can change it from one of the big ones to maybe a cheaper and more agile new company. But if you're stuck in two-year contract or one-year contract, then you can't move. I think that's our things you you could look at.

SPEAKER_01:

So remove redundant apps, negotiate terms, and also don't tie yourself into a long-term contract, if possible, of course. Sometimes you understand.

SPEAKER_02:

Also, Shopify has a long-term contract, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean that again, it depends on how big you are as a business, doesn't it? And how much they they perceive you're gonna spend with them. Um you've got that negotiation power. Um what what do you think at the moment is the most overhyped cost-saving promise that you're seeing in commerce? Yeah, maybe maybe AI. Uh okay. So I haven't been through a whole podcast in about eight, nine months without mentioning AI. So it felt like it was coming.

SPEAKER_02:

It's going pretty fast, but I think you can build a simple store with AI, very easy. But like complex replatforming is not yet possible with AI. A simple thing, yeah. I don't think you can build Amazon with AI, right? That that's that's the exaggerated uh part, but that's not yet possible, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

um yeah that i think that that's one of the most uh overrated at the moment and do you think that is something that because you said you can't write now do you see that that changing do you see the a clear path to being able to build much bigger complicated integrations and platforms using ai I think now but then maybe people more more into this but I think you can build parts of complex stuff really fast and also in the future that those parts can be more and more complex but I think it's tough to build the whole thing with AI right there you still need need humans like project managers to to get it all together or technical solution engineers to make sure that the things fit to each other but that that's interesting because if you the the the job titles and roles you were talking about there they are probably either don't exist in your current business or that that that's a small number of the people there. So do you think that's going to change the dynamic with the types of hiring and and how you build out the team uh yeah of course yes we have to um I think they're called prompters right I I do think we focus a lot of solution on solution engineers we are an equal part as the the front of developers who actually also still have a significant job also in the future I believe even with AI.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And what would you say say again sorry a little bit of a difficult topic yeah yeah yeah I think is a topic that everyone's struggling to get to grips with uh and I think we all recognize that we do need to get to grips with it we want we need to understand how it's going to impact the sector uh in the industries that we're in um but it's it's complicated and it's a very very rapidly evolving um beast I think yeah if you see at Shopfire dishes in Toronto you see them developing with AI insection right which is amazing but the code's not not not very good but but but that will change of course and like every day it will get better and better and better. Yeah and how much uh as a partner how much foresight do you get of of big upcoming changes do they give you a couple of weeks when they're going to release something big and new on the platform yeah yeah yeah of course we have our own channels separate channels where we can see that um there are often events like uh this week in London where they give insights on the upcoming stuff a lot on B2B actually a lot of a lot of payments a lot on payments which is a big topic of course so yeah yes all agencies actually are uh all I think premiere and plus and uh platinum agencies are involved in these uh informed okay um what would you say is the most underrated TCO metric we've talked about the uh positives would we say that is the most underrated in your view yeah I I feel a bit uh payment providers it's so expensive right it's really expensive for for building a I think why why is that why is it so expensive I think they might keep it up the prices right it's it's it's super it's just of course it's difficult software very responsible to do payment but it's like uh 30 cents or one euro for for a payment it's it's it's steep that is yeah particularly for the high volume low uh uh level transactions for sure and if if you were able to tweak uh a single fee in the Shopify ecosystem what would uh what would you change yeah again payments yes it's a big chunk right yeah yeah yeah absolutely that was the the one thing you changed do you think Shopify will will make that change over time do they they recognize this themselves I think they recognize and they're they're also into a lot do a lot into payments so like very competing uh Shopify payments uh product now uh which more and more also in the Netherlands people are adopting so yeah that's that's a good one okay and uh if if listeners are going to take away one thing from uh from the conversation today what would you suggest that should be yeah okay takeaway who could be um we never see anyone who replatformed with us to shopify in the last seven years no merchant um replatform to another another platform right okay it just didn't happen we've seen it once there was a company sorry we've seen it once there's a company on Shopify really nice one from Netherlands I won't name it but beautiful brand very knowledgeable in the Netherlands also everybody knows it and they were bought by an English company way bigger and they're on a different platform so they had to move everything from Shopify to that platform which is of course but that's the only thing I only once I saw that happening so that's a good one. So I really would consider Shopify but keep your TCO in mind and keep the sheet and we can provide it to you look at it monthly bi monthly or yearly and check if everything's still all right on a good TCO sheet you can see the uh whether costs are really rising and then uh talk to those especially if you're in the let's say the 50 million plus zone you can you can talk to people right they know you can get discounts you can get advantages and keep searching for the the new kids on the blog I really like that yeah yeah plenty plenty of um of new kids coming through uh new technology or new takes on current technology um I'm certainly seeing that but yeah that's certainly good advice and you mentioned TCO again uh the the spreadsheet that you guys produced can we make uh uh a version of that available to the uh to the audience yeah we can make it like a version available we can like the simple version which is actually the most liked is something we can uh we can yeah we make available yeah that'd be really helpful I think that's something that most clients that I talk to are asking me questions about and so yeah I think that would be really interesting for the for the audience to be able to have access to that so we'll make sure they can get access to that when we post the the podcast across the social channels. Yes and also if they want like a detailed one of course they can contact us and uh we provide you detailed one in a call we can just in a 30 minute call we can produce it for you to take it yeah perfect sounds good well listen it was really really insightful and uh thank you for taking the time to jump on the podcast and share your insights with it's been it's been really great. Thanks Bob okay thank you by

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Tim Roedel

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