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The FODcast
In the FODcast (The Future of #DigitalCommerce) we explore the real career stories of the people who have made it to the very top of the sector and those who are working at the cutting edge of innovation and change right now. Listeners to the podcast gain insight into the journeys industry leaders have taken to be where they are today, the challenges they are facing now and their aims for the future.
The FODcast
From Buzzwords To Bottom Line: Unified Commerce, AI, And The Real Costs Of Replatforming with Kim Samuelsen and Max Rolon
We’ve got an extra special episode of The FODcast dropping this week - not only do we have both Tim Roedel AND James Hodges side by side in the interviewer’s seat once again, but we’re also joined by two guests from global commerce agency Domaine, Kim Samuelsen and Max Rolon.
In this four-way chat, we discuss how Shopify’s native capabilities now handle serious complexity across EMEA without the overhead of composable stacks - and what that means for brands weighing platform choice, expansion, and cost control.
From Markets and meta objects to multilingual storefronts and local payment methods, we explore what’s changed, what still trips brands up, and where the smart money goes when every budget line is under pressure.
The conversation digs into:
- The real barriers of European expansion - compliance, duties, and fulfilment quirks like lockers and pickup points
- When to stick with Shopify Payments versus legacy gateways
- Why clean, centralised data underpins everything from AI personalisation to CRM efficiency
- How unified commerce is replacing brittle omnichannel integrations
You’ll also hear real-world examples; from a Magento-to-Shopify B2B migration that finally brought B2B online to an enterprise furniture launch that hit a 23-week timeline and lifted conversion by 19%.
If you’re weighing platform choice, entering Europe, or tightening spend ahead of Q1, this is your field guide to cutting TCO without cutting ambition.
🎧 Enjoy!
#ShopifyPlus #Ecommerce #DigitalCommerce #UnifiedCommerce #PlatformMigration #FODcast
Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.
Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/
Hello and welcome to season seven of the podcast. The podcast focused on the future of digital commerce hosted by Simply Commerce. Season 7 promises to continue to bring you some of the industry's brightest minds across the globe as we unpick the sector and where it's heading. From war stories to strategy and technology deep dives to future trends. We cover it all as we continue our journey to have one of the most popular podcasts in commerce. Before we start, if you enjoy our content, please do hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening on, like and share on socials. Hello and welcome back to the podcast, The Future of All Things Digital Commerce. I'm excited for this one. Not only do we have two guests, but for the first time since series one, both Tim and I co-host the show. Now back to today's guests. Since acquiring code earlier this year, Domain are now the largest Shopify pure play partner globally. So I'm pleased to welcome Kim Samuelson, Director of Delivery, and Max Roland, CTO, to the show as we break down Shopify across EMEA with a focus on adoption, AI, TCO, and loads of other cool things in between. Welcome to the show, guys. Hi. Thanks for having us. Looking forward to this one, like I said, thank you very much. So that was a high-level overview. I guess no one knows no one better placed than yourself to uh talk through the ones in a bit more detail. So, Kim, do you want to start off with a quick part of your background?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. Director of Delivery here at Domain, and have had the pleasure of witnessing probably over a hundred launches at this point. And I'm very involved from the sales process all the way through to projects launching and have experienced working alongside Max and his team. So I'll kick it over to Max.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, hey, I'm Max. I'm the CTO of Domain. I spent about a decade helping brand scale across North America and now Mia, with most of that time spent in the Shopify ecosystem. And Domain, you know, we're a leading Shopify agency. As James said, we're over 300 people, largest Shopify focused service company uh in the globe now. And 75 of our team members are in Amia boots on the ground.
SPEAKER_03:So over 100 implementations globally for yourself, Kim. Obviously, Max, huge amount of experience as well. I mean, there's probably uh not two better people uh out there other than yourself to talk through this as we break down Shopify and EMEA. So I think let's just jump straight in and let's get started with one uh one e-commerce myth that you guys are tired of hearing about.
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, I'll go I'll go first and Kim, you go second. Um mine is about a very uh old topic called headless. And the myth that I like to bust is that uh headless automatically means enterprise. Uh we're in a place, particularly within the Shopify ecosystem, where um the headed uh environment of Shopify can really support a lot of the complexity that large and enterprise merchants deal with today. And it can be done in a way that um doesn't mean that your technical overhead needs to include a larger headless uh footprint. So you can, you know, it's never been a better time to be nimble and to embrace a headed architecture. Um, and you know, double-click on that, uh particularly if you have prejudices around Shopify that you know were from a few years ago.
SPEAKER_03:You uh you see that that's still the case then that uh companies are saying that if it that headless is enterprise only, is that still quite common in your conversations?
SPEAKER_01:Uh it comes up, like probably in one in every five conversations. So it's something that uh is still persisting. Uh, I'd say it's easier to debunk now than it was uh in the past, uh, where uh a lot of our brand leaders are um already heard some of this dialogue in the ecosystem, but it's still an off conversation that comes up and something that we need to double-click on. Uh, a couple of the things that come up in that conversation are the flexibility of the CMS as well as uh what it means to be a global brand and to embrace uh some of the new features of Shopify markets.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, and you find in that conversation differs based on the geographical location, for example, um, would the conversation with customers differ in North America versus Europe?
SPEAKER_01:I think Europe is interesting uh because Europe embraces so many different cross-border considerations. You've got so many countries and an organism. So the cross-border considerations uh of a brand is uh is stronger. And headless was a great way to maybe stitch data together when you have data distributed over multiple Shopify instances as an example. You can take different ideas of products that need to be siloed to support some of these complex models and roll it into a single content management system, a CMS. And that was where headless could often shine. But with the you know growing strength of Shopify, the uh stronger ability to get more complexity out of a single instance, a single Shopify markets model, uh, the kind of headless approach is uh diminishing in its value and headed is shining as a more um like prominent um and uh you know best in class kind of approach for uh large and enterprise architectures.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. How and how would you just deal the the markets in terms of their kind of maturity levels? Is there is there much difference uh from say say Europe to North America as an example? In terms of the maturity of brands and like yeah, like that's technical maturity, sorry, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think the big thing that I've learned from Amir is the kind of distributed nature of the technical environment, particularly in the back end side of things. Uh in North America, a lot of uh kind of fulfillment providers, OMS, PIMS uh really centralized across a smaller number of core players. Whereas in Europe, uh there's a lot more distribution in terms of the key players and what are those integration uh considerations across um kind of the sweep of Europe. And so when we're thinking about maturity and we're thinking about characteristics, we're having a lot of mature conversations. There's a lot of brand leaders that have been dealing with a lot of complexity for a long time. So I wouldn't say it's an immature landscape, but it is uh a place where an agency needs to learn a new partner ecosystem, needs to be able to speak uh in a way that really puts kind of some of this cross-border compliance, thinking about um just you know the way that we sell uh in a completely different way in North America. North America is a huge continent filled with a huge base of customers, whereas Europe is an area where we need to think about our areas of customers in in different ways, um, both from a kind of strategy marketing perspective. But you know, in my side, what I think about every day is you know from that more of that technology side.
SPEAKER_02:It'd be interesting to ask uh to move on to just the improvements you've seen on the actual platform Shopify in a sec, but while we're talking about cross-border, uh my personally would like to know what you think is the biggest difficulty to overcome with cross-border commerce in Europe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So the is I mean one of the big things that we think about with cross-border is that um just with any part of the world, like you can't simplify the way that you speak uh to uh different customers. And so yeah, the need to kind of fragment and consider different content per markets, the need to think about different compliance, even the need to think about different payment providers is an area where, particularly on proprietary stacks, it can be pretty complex. I mean, you if you're owning the payment provider, but you're needing to enable local payment methods, particularly in like Northern Europe, for example, um, that can be a lot to take on. But if you're using something like Shopify Payments, where it's really one-click install and there's automatic personalization at the kind of market level, at the country level, that really overs, you know, that simplifies the way that you need to roll out and handle um, you know, your marketing structure, your market structure in a way that is really advantageous to a European market. Um and so that there's a like a strong benefit, and I think this is one of the big reasons why Shopify is putting their you know really big foot forward in expanding into Europe, and we're seeing a lot of adoption and attraction in this space, and one of the big reasons why we're moving alongside Shopify to um be more prominent in this uh area of the world.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, makes sense. I I hear the payments uh piece regularly when we talk to clients. Um my question would be why why wouldn't you just use the Shopify payments platform? Why would you go to an alternative? Is it because of limitations or something else?
SPEAKER_01:So when we say like uh different payments provided, we're like thinking about you know the decision of using something like Addien versus Shopify payments out of the buff. Yeah. I mean, often it's like not necessarily like an easy decision to make as you're thinking about when contracts expire, you know, like prior commitments as well as trying to enable the transformation of the brand. Um it's hard to have a lot of things first marry up into that same timeline. So we work with a lot of brands that like have pretty strong negotiated uh transactional rates with um payment providers, but also don't want to unlock a transformation to be um having to wait for these contracts to expire. So there can be like a two-step process sometimes where you'll really want to unlock the benefits of a platform like Shopify while still considering obligations to a third-party platform like Adian. Um that's kind of tier one. The other thing is like when we think about transformations, we're not just thinking about your like digital native environment. We're also thinking about what are your brick and mortar concerns, what are your POS concerns. And when we think about um how to cater to like an audience, uh a world that really assumes omni-channel um customer experiences are out of the box, you need to think about the way that Shopify payments plays in in the web, but also think about how that might interact with a POS um piece of hardware and what that means for um for kind of checkout and also some of the change management that you need to do as a brand. So often we're seeing brands wanting to take one step before the other, um, be able to kind of guide the next evolution of their brand. Do I think that Shopify payments is kind of like a um really competitive offering for brands to really consider? I'd say, like, yes, you get um so much of the Shopify ecosystem out of the box, you can really enable a better fidelity experience around Shopify markets. There's a lot around local payment methods that are spun up in Shopify's checkout in a way that you just don't see if you're using a third-party gateway. So I would recommend it be a part. Um, if you are considering a move to Shopify to really double-click on, look at the TCO, look at the payment rates, but don't assume that it's a better decision to go with a prior contract of adding-in um without doing your homework.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. And Kim, in your position, you are very close to the product, you'll see uh it change, and it's changed quite dramatically over the last few years. What are you, what would you say is the um the improvement you've seen that delivers the most ROI that's happened recently?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I think we see a lot of clients uh in mid-market, particularly that are on Shopify 1.0 still, really working with them closely to get them onto 2.0. They feel like they're getting a lot of value. They're less dev reliant for every you know new page that they might need. So being able to really introduce that value by migrating those clients from 1.0 to 2.0 is one big win that we've seen. And then also just the additional plugins that we're seeing from Shopify and their AI approach as well. We do a lot of work holistically as a team across all of our divisions, keeping in mind all the new features that are coming out, so that we're able to deliver value across, you know, whether that's CRM, SEO, and then also, of course, on the dev side. I think one big thing that we're seeing a lot from mid-market clients uh in the sales pipeline is these people that have invested a ton in design of a new website, maybe a couple of years ago, um, but the traffic isn't really there for them. And then they're coming to work with us to understand, okay, what is it about our site if it's not design and really just making sure that it's not build it and they will come. There's always a consistent iteration that we need to be mindful of because there's new technology every week. It seems like at this point, that we want to make sure our clients are also being able to take advantage of.
SPEAKER_02:And we we we we obviously can't talk about it without without going down the AI route and having some kind of conversation around AI. Um, there's so much that can be done. And I I know I think we'd all agree you start with trying to start with the business problems first and try and work with the solution backwards from there. But what's the one thing that you're seeing uh from the AI perspective that's simplifying things for merchants?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say personalization. For a long time, merchants have been manually merchandising to try to capture uh the best fit that they think for their customers. But working with some of our incredible partners who do have that technology to leverage that has really helped kind of cater that experience. I think ultimately customers are looking for a personalized experience. So if we're able to kind of tap into that, just being aware of what's out there so we can start to implement those tools. And I think that's a big one for sure, is the personalization aspect and then also leveraging any sort of AI for support. Um, you know, being able to resolve things a lot faster. Of course, you don't want to be that person that's that's hitting the can I just talk to an agent? If you don't, you know, if you're able to kind of get through that flow a lot faster, you can create an excellent experience even post-purchase, whether that's on the returns level. Um, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that can be one of the most frustrating things if it's not. Uh but but uh okay. And uh it would be good to get uh your guys take on a couple of success stories. Um maybe one of you take an enterprise one, maybe one a mid-market one, just to kind of understand some of the work you guys have been doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. I can speak about mid-market uh brand that we recently migrated from Magento earlier on in the summer, Chillowitch. Uh they are a D2C and B2B brand. They sell to hotels, interior designers, also direct to consumers for placemats, rugs, also custom rugs as well. But I think the really big opportunity that we saw there was blending their B2B and D2C experience. Their B2B was not online prior, so they had to have a really large customer service team to kind of deal with pricing, quotes, that whole purchase experience. And now that we've brought B2B online, uh it's been amazing for them. But we're also starting to understand how a B2B shopper differ from a regular consumer, which is kind of unlocking a lot of unique insights for us to kind of iterate and improve that experience. So I think that's been a massive success. Uh, they've seen a huge increase um in kind of the business there.
SPEAKER_02:So nice. And Max, on the enterprise side?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'm gonna call about a furniture brand called Polywood. Uh we do a decent amount of kind of furniture migrations. Um and earlier this year we launched uh Polywood on Shopify from Adobe Commerce under a 23-week timeline. And so that I mean that timeline is a pretty, I think, an interesting thing to consider, knowing what common timelines for enterprise level brands that are doing a major migration. It was pretty quick. Um, and uh we launched in about January. Uh, since then they've seen a 19% conversion uplift, which in you know, just uh for going through so much change and going through a major transformation and seeing such a positive win is a real, yeah, I think it's a really positive success story. And a big part of that came from really simplifying their uh approach to technology, unlocking marketing teams, and also allowing the team to really focus on some kind of vital statistics like their web performance, um, because now they have more time to do so. And so we're continuing to work with Polywood. There are uh, you know, I think they're well positioned for a lot of success.
SPEAKER_02:90% uplift. Is that on GMV? Is that the measure? 19% on conversion. Conversion, okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, nice one nine, one nine. One nine, one zero would be mega, right? That would be huge. I uh I love the fact it's uh it's a double magento call out implementation, right? I think we're seeing we've we've seen a lot of those over the last uh well, last five years, right? Um, but just quickly going back to what you're saying before around personalization, Kim. One of the challenges that we've heard a lot with brands in the UK is that as they've looked to invest in AI, particularly around personalization, there the issue has been the data that they've got underlying. And they've been collecting data for a long time, but it's not stored accurately, they can't access it properly. Are you finding similar challenges with with the brands you're working with?
SPEAKER_00:In terms of access to the data?
SPEAKER_03:Just in terms of data reliability, accuracy, and then how they can then use that data to provide a fully personalized experience for their customers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, we one of the tools that we, partners that we like to work with, XGren, they have really robust deep learning models that I think they're continuously training and adapting. So we're seeing a lot of success. Our clients really enjoy working with partners like that because the results do seem accurate. Max, curious from your POV, more on the tech and data side.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. First thing is that being in an architecture that allows for there to be uh centralized data across different nodes is a really important kind of baseline to have. And so if you have already invested in a CDP or if you're not quite at that point where you use something like Shopify as a CDP that allows for a personalization engine to tap into a single source and that single source to be fairly decorated. Um, and it can be something that a brand sort of take in a transformation can often take for granted because it kind of comes out of the box. But when you're on like a proprietary stack, you're really pushing and pulling data from multiple omni-channel points to try and stit together like a transaction log or a history, it can get to be pretty complex. And so there is certainly a level of investment, also a level of normalization, like simple things like uh did someone check out with two different emails, but we want to marry it up to the you know to the um same customer profile to be able to enable that bad behavior. There's certainly amount of cleansing that um you can do, but that's also an area where AI is also unlocking. A big part of AI is you know, sure, on the customer um uh experience side, but also enabling that deduplication of data, enabling that cleansing to happen as to simplify back office routines. And there are uh companies that are really making strides there and turning into something that you get as a value add uh if you're uh using it for a different AI purpose. You know, just think in something like Clavio or an email service provider that provides uh some of this data-based cleansing offerings out of the box.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, would you recommend that all brands go through some form of data cleansing exercise before uh any fancy AI personalization implementation or even a replatform?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would be hesitant to create a massive dependency to that to experimentation with a new platform. If the data that you're using is fundamentally um in a bad spot, then creating a formal baseline that you're using to build the requirements and build the models could be a good step to go through. But there's also a maybe a view that says that data cleansing is an ongoing and continuous process, and um try as a leader continuing to try and take the can a step forward, get something out, iterate on it, um, refine and continuously funnel in data that is progressively cleansed as you go.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, all right. So let's look at um obviously the mid the mid-market um area again right now, and we talk about how mid-market has adapted its conversation around headless maybe over the last sort of two or three years. What's changed um in the conversation that you're having on a weekly basis? Um, I guess this could be one either of you guys could take.
SPEAKER_00:I think I'll speak to it from like a from a sales lens. It's definitely the cost, right? It's understanding like how can we invest in our site and still get great ROI if we're able to kind of have and reducing the number of vendors. These brands have so many strategies, I would say, even from online to in-store, and just making sure that we're kind of able to provide that value. If we're working on Shopify, our team has deep expertise there. So we're just able to kind of return more, I would say, if they have that single, single vendor that they're working with. Um, Max, I'll kick it over to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and agree with cost. Flexibility always comes at a cost. And when you're picking headless, you're picking a level of flexibility or composability rather than pegging your horse to a single monolith. Um, but that does mean that there's typically like a 30% increased cost for uh the you know any big transition, but also in terms of ongoing uh services and support costs as well. There's just more lines of code to manage. You're uh having to uh handle uh you know third-party integrations in a more complex way. Um and so I think there's less appetite for that, particularly now, particularly this year, um, as brands kind of uh navigate a lot of macroeconomic uncertainty. Uh TCO has never been as big a conversation as it's been today. And so um kind of talking in real terms about um you know the value of headed and and where uh it um has grown over the last uh you know little while um versus the actual true value that you could realize in uh in a headless stack. I think for mid-market brands, it's becoming less of a powerful argument for headless.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, would you uh I mean I mean personally, I would say the the buzz around the sort of the term headless was maybe sort of three or four years ago, and it was almost like every organization was like we need to go headless, and uh it's similar to composable, we need to move composable, and it sounds great and it's fancy, and it sounds like it's gonna be the next big thing, and it after two or three years it kind of whittles down and actually it wasn't the next big thing, and something else has come around now. Um, it sounds like you guys are kind of in in agreement with that as well. I guess what what I'd be interested to to know from a Shopify's perspective is what are the um what are the main features um Shopify have that are reducing the need for uh for complex builds?
SPEAKER_01:Um one area to double-click in is the growth of the content management system that you get out of the box with Shopify. Uh say like three, four years ago, it was heavily sections-based, heavily templates driven. Um, and the ability to extend data models was uh offloaded to third-party meta field applications to be able to kind of extend those models. A lot of that has come into the platform first party. Uh, this concept of meta objects has been introduced, which allows you to design out kind of custom data that is you know fit for purpose for your unique business, and then connect that into templates and connect that into sections to create like a pretty huge amount of flexibility. And so the you know, uh a CMS, a platform that just does one thing and does things something really well, is naturally going to be more flexible, uh, it's gonna be less opinionated, but the lever of what you actually need is more into the Shopify camp than it than it has been in previous years. And the other thing that I mentioned earlier, but I'll restate it here, is that um you know Shopify markets uh has grown and supporting international strategies is really was one of those key drivers to going headless. Uh, if you needed to use different Shopify instances, then um having a URL structure that really fits within a single domain was something that Headless could provide out of the box, but it at that time it wasn't really possible in a yeah, you know, if you went headed. And then uh if you did need to use different Shopify instances to manage your different product data across different parts of the globe, uh allowing all of that to funnel into a single CMS allowed you to you know simplify your content authorship pipelines in a way that was very attractive for brands. But you know, as Shopify markets, um the technical dynamics of those decisions have naturally changed and become simpler in a head of context.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like we're 20 minutes in and I've already learned so much about the Shopify platform and how it's all put together, it's crazy. It's like a bit like whoa. Uh but it's really cool. Thank you. Um we just spoke about uh headless being a buzzword. Uh right now, unified commerce seems to be the current buzzword. What what's Shopify's a sort of take on unified commerce?
SPEAKER_01:Um Shopify is deeply uh talking about uh unified commerce in comparison to Omni, um Omnichannel Commerce. And the big difference is, at least as I understand it, is when you think about Omnichannel, you're still meeting customers where they're at, but you're doing it with a pretty complex network, oftentimes, of different integrations that you need to handle as a business. And so you may have a POS, um, you may have an online store, but generally you're stitching those things together through an element of custom code. Uh, whereas if you pick the right unified platform, a platform that can that is multi-channel by design, that uh takes on the burden of uh allowing you to sell in different channels, you're naturally simplifying your technical footprint. You're also making it much easier to get a single source of truth for your customer data because it all sits in one spot. So this is one of the major attractions for picking um the right e-commerce engine, treating it as the kind of the center of your e-commerce ecosystem. Um, and it's I'd say like even more relevant as we think about um the different ways that ways that customers are starting to shop, the way that uh you know LLM engines like ChatGPT are really coming into both top and mid funnel here, and we're seeing a lot of um that you know customers using conversation to be able to interact with brands. If you pick the right platform, being able to respond to that, to experiment, to adapt um is much easier, I'd say if you kind of have a unified lens rather than the more legacy omni-channel lens. Of course, there's minutiae and detail, but that was like a quick odd take, I suppose.
SPEAKER_03:It sounds like Shopify is the the platform that you would recommend all the time, right? I mean, there's it's hard to argue against it based on what you just said.
SPEAKER_01:Well, um I mean we are a Shopify platform, like service. We we are a Shopify services company that really is focused on Shopify, but that is not necessarily a cop-out because you know we've decided that our entire business is gonna be in lockstep with Shopify. It means that we've um we believe so fundamentally in the growth and the benefits of this platform that we've you know pegged our horse to it. And so for our perspective, there's so much value that uh Shopify is able to provide brands, it's also like the infancy of this journey, it's gonna grow more and more, particularly in AMIA. Um, and uh you know, for us, I think that the Unify story with Shopify is a pretty powerful one.
SPEAKER_02:Just to push on that a little bit, I want to go on to talking about uh TCO um in However, but if you uh you you guys are doing some of the bigger uh builds and implementations, the more complicated uh implementations. Uh but is there in your view a point where it wouldn't be advisable at this stage to go into Shopify um a particular size of client or a particular level of complexity where actually doesn't make sense in your view?
SPEAKER_01:Good question. Um I think that's like a timing side of things. Like the brand needs to be in a position where they will embark on a major transformation. Um now I wouldn't say that the uh the other uh inverse um decision there is to do nothing. We're seeing that play out a lot in particular the last six months or so as brands navigate you know tariffs and macroeconomic factors. Um but there is a definitely a pick the right time for your business to under undergo a major change. Um Shopify is core uh focus has been D2C for a long time. Um and it's really invested a lot in feature fidelity, particularly within your web experience. And its other growth areas are around its POS offering and around its B2B offering, I'd say. And so we've recently Started a B2B practice to really help brands focus and see how the B2B world could be reimagined on Shopify, but it's a growth area of the platform. There's still areas where for really complex B2B offerings, there's a really strong place that a services partner or a third party is going to play to really augment what you get natively from Shopify. And so as you get into the details and really understand what it means to be doing enterprise level B2B on Shopify, that would be an area where you know it's not never good to do hand-wavy gestures, but we'd really want to get into the details and really understand how your enterprise architecture would be solutioned on the platform.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, makes sense. And you you you briefly touched on the um uh economics. So we know macroeconomics have not been favorable. Uh UK government can't seem to get the economy firing. There's tariffs kicking about all over the place, which are putting people off from making investments. Um how Kim are you seeing brands weighing up the total cost of ownership in the climate we're in right now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think they're really leaning on us to understand, okay, how can we still drive value for our customers, knowing that if if there's any sort of uh cost that's being passed on to that customer as a result of tariffs, okay, what are they getting in addition to? And a lot of that is just making sure that they're creating a robust experience where we want to eliminate returns. Obviously, if you're paying a large tariff, it's you may not see that money back as a consumer. Um so I think a large part of that is just looking at different functionality. There's one client we rolled out, a really robust 3D viewer, so people can really understand the fabric that they're getting, the finishes, what those look like up close, because they want to make sure they feel confident in their purchase as a result of obviously some of these complications with tariffs that we're seeing. So I think ultimately brands are looking to understand where should they invest to better that customer experience so that these customers will stick through and ride this out.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. And Max, we we talked about this in the run-up to doing the podcast. We talked about the TCO calculator that you use with clients. What stands out from your perspective when you're running through that process when you're comparing Shopify to legacy platforms?
SPEAKER_01:First thing is to really go deep with someone like the right consultate consultant to really understand where you're at as a business today. That doesn't just mean you know what are your revenue share costs with us uh you know with your current platform. It's also kind of considering your roadmap strategy, your growth plans, where you might want to where you might uh assume you're gonna see conversion uplift as well, uh, when kind of considering what it's gonna look like in the next 12 months. The other thing to look at, um, which we really help with is not just looking at Shopify's platform costs or um you know platform-to-platform comparison, but also looking at the third parties that you're gonna be bringing along for the ride. And so what you know, who's your personalization partner, who's your email service provider, um, you know, who are you using for fraud? And then really providing a pretty robust understanding of your TCO landscape, um, you know, soup to nuts. The other consideration is also kind of some of your human resource considerations. You know, it's is the same team going to be servicing um the new world of e-commerce after you go through a transformation or is it gonna fundamentally change? Are you gonna be able to uh enable those team members to really focus on growth objectives rather than um doing things that don't add a lot of value, like bug fixing or keeping the lights on? And so if you have a look at it from you know end to end, uh that that is where you know the right uh TCO calculator can come in and you can really make an informed decision. So we've built this a domain. This is something that we feel like is adding a lot of um value to brass, particularly in the macroeconomic climate that we're in. Um and uh yeah, we're excited to show it to anybody that's interested.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. You mentioned teams uh on the on the end client side. So historically, when we've worked with uh an agency who's been implementing hybrids, there's been a normally a demand to build a team on the opposite side, um depending on how big the project is. We're not seeing that so much with the Shopify builds, mainly because of the size and complexity, but that's increasing. So do you guys see that kind of playing out with the Shopify builds as they increase in in size and complexity?
SPEAKER_01:Uh to push that back at you, like the idea that you're gonna need the same size or similar size in technical stuff or just team stuff with something like hybrid as you move over to Shopify?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so we would uh historically work with the end client and they may need a couple of developers, a project manager, maybe an architect, depending on how big and complicated it was. Um, possibly not full-time, but at least part-time. Um but we we're not seeing that same kind of demand for the client side hiring for the projects. But I'm wondering if you think that will change.
SPEAKER_01:Every brand is different. So talking in hand wavy gestures is you know something I tread lightly on. But I would assume for almost every brand, if you move away from something like Hypress and onto Shopify, uh, to get the same amount of output, you'll generally need less people. And so when you're thinking about your team, it it might mean that you scale back, it might mean that you change your hiring approach, but it also might mean that you use the same heads that you had previously in different ways to be able to continue to grow the business forward, kind of move the needle towards innovation rather than just the baseline. And so I'd say, Tim, um there it doesn't surprise me that like there's less team count needed to get the same needs as after you do the migration. Um but it's also in the way that you you know want to enable your team and and kind of grow the business and how quickly you want to do that because you can continue to scale at a pretty fast clip on Shopify.
SPEAKER_03:I think on the team size, a lot of it depends on the complexity of the the engagement as well. And I think as we start, I mean Shopify has m edged into enterprise over the last uh two or three years in particular, uh, is clearly wanting more and more and it's pushing that way. I guess on that note, do you see the platform uh evolving to a point in which it's going to be spoken about at kind of true enterprise, multiple tens, hundreds of stores service in 50, 60, 70 countries? Is it capable of that? Because for many, Shopify is still seen as an out-of-the-box, go online in a couple of weeks platform, right?
SPEAKER_01:We've got a lot of success stories around being able to speak to kind of some of these enterprise level concerns. Even if you take um store count, you know, the platform at this point is able to be able to take uh brick and mortar strategies that can scale up to like 140, 150, 200 plus stores. And so from a pure like architecture and ecosystem consideration, you know, it's it is it's built for scale. Now, um, as you think about the way that you uh operationalize your global strategy, the way that you might make sense to roll something into a single Shopify instance versus uh you know our distributed footprint, the way that you might encompass a OMS or a PIM or an ERP to be able to kind of get the most out of the system but not over-trivialize the complexities, is certainly the opportunity to have Shopify as a node in your greater strategy, but not just the only component of it. Um we've just launched a brand that's uh got over six million SKUs in their catalogue as a kind of another example of where it's rising up to some greater levels of consideration. Of course, it's not the biggest catalogue in the world, but it is quite a credible one. Um, and we're also seeing some strength in some enterprise-level partnerships in the ecosystem, um, such as between Shopify and platforms like Manhattan, which is pretty prominent in North America, particularly. And so I fully expect there to be more growth and uh kind of consumer confidence in its ability to scale to enterprise just by some of the brand stories that are coming out today and have been coming out for a little while at this point.
SPEAKER_03:I find it really cool just to just to reflect back on the growth of Shopify and to think there there is a real possibility. Well, there is a platform that can service pretty much every size of business out there. You would never have associated a hybrid, as we used that example earlier, servicing a far smaller an SME, right? It just wouldn't have happened. It was true enterprise. And see Shopify doing both, I find is really cool, even if the platform is separated slightly with plus and standards, it's still really cool. And I look forward to seeing the continued evolution because they're chucking money at it, and it's uh it's it's gonna get there. Um, but we Tim spoke a bit about the macroeconomic climate that's affected everyone globally over the last couple of years. Now, on the surface, it does seem like Shopify has been a little bit exempt from that. If I'm looking at the customers that we're speaking to, 90% of the ones that have kicked off new project new projects, particularly replatforms, have probably been Shopify. Um, I guess what I'd be interested to hear from you guys is you're having these conversations with brands on a regular basis. When Shopify doesn't get the nud, what are the reasons why?
SPEAKER_00:That is an interesting one. I think sometimes the brand may revert to kind of staying on their on their current platform. I think that's kind of the biggest reason that we see. But we on the flip side, we're seeing a lot of people that are ready to kind of take that jump in the investment, knowing that it is gonna be better for them long term. But I think the biggest thing is just that hesitation um and trying to just ride out the waters of where their spend is going for the year or the next two years.
SPEAKER_03:More cash are just stalling stalling the decision as to actually ruling out the platform itself.
SPEAKER_02:Are are you guys seeing people turn Shopify down and go to another platform?
SPEAKER_01:Hell that's that, yeah. I mean, it happens, I don't know uh how much you expect it to happen, but it happens maybe far less than you think it happens, but it's still there's still a conversation. I mean, Shopify still goes has to respond to like a a vendor-based RFP as it kind of goes to market, particularly for larger brands. I mean, technical decisions are um, you know, they're can be objective and they can be subjective. You can, you know, have a conversation struggle strongly pegged to some opinions and previous positive experience from executives um in a company as well. And so as we're evaluating um and helping brands really have a look at it objectively, um, you know, sometimes uh prior experience and uh prior success does play into the matrix as well. Um, so you know that there is a factor um where there are areas and markets where I think Shopify still has some growth to do, like uh we're thinking about how we can support Shopify in um business models, you know, around kind of complex manufacturing or around even just like uh enterprise grade event and ticketing solutions, which is something that is not as tapped in. And there is some work um to really support brands that are more at the kind of larger supermarket level as well, um, where some of that nuance, some of that um isn't doesn't really fit into more of your no, it's a little different to like your um maybe uh fashion vertical or your cosmetic vertical, there's some natural deep complexity that needs to be modeled out. Um and so when you're thinking about using the right platform, you know, you are thinking about how much can Shopify take on. And if there is a customization layer that needs to sit on top of Shopify, how much or does that customization layer need to take on? And if you've got a a business model that has a pretty complex customization layer, that could be an area where we start to double-click and really make sure that the platform is um fit for purpose.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting, you mentioned supermarkets and and what have you there. So again, that's a a sector I've never really associated with Shopify. So it'll be interesting to see how how it evolves in that space over the next couple of years, because I'm sure it won't be long until we start hearing its its name mentioned alongside some of the bigger brands as globally. Um do you find when you're you're speaking to decision makers that there is a hesitation to move on to Shopify uh and its ability to operate successfully and serve their needs at enterprise level, or is that conversation kind of outdated now?
SPEAKER_01:Still comes up all the time. Yeah. Um, it's a fun conversation to have because you're just debunking kind of easy facts a lot of the time. Like one of uh my favorite ones is if you move over to Shopify, like you need to design it in a certain way, or it needs to even handle white space in a certain way. Whereas the reality of designing a custom experience on Shopify, it's really a blank canvas and you can design it any which way that you want. And so there are still some kind of areas and some but I thought kind of conversations that we have every day.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe that could have been the myth we debunked at the start of the conversation, right? Would have been very fit in. Um okay, and then it's a slightly broader question, and appreciate there'sn't there's by no means a uh a one size fits all approach to this one, but what's what's the kind of average kind of uh go live time for a mid-market brand? Kenny, I'll take that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'll take that. Uh we are launching in 12 to 14 weeks at this point for mid-market brands. And yeah, that's kind of been our our go-to in the last couple of launches that we've done. If we really need to expedite, we are doing some launches in as little as eight weeks. We've kind of had this. Obviously, BFCM is fast approaching, so there was definitely some appetite um for some of those more recent projects, but yeah, 12 to 14 weeks.
SPEAKER_03:All right, and we're currently nearing the end of September. Have you got any brands talking to you now asking to get them migrated and live before Black Friday?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, we actually sometimes get calls like first week in November where it's like, is there a chance?
SPEAKER_03:Um, first of November. Well, okay.
SPEAKER_00:And that becomes more of a conversation of okay, what can we do for you on your current site? It's a little tricky, but um, we have a couple of conversations that are happening this week where not necessarily a full migration, but let's take a look at our site and really make some powerful improvements leading up to.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so good luck with that one. Well, that's uh two months, eight weeks, give or take, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, I think there's a lot you can do in eight weeks. It really comes down to can you make decisions quickly and trust, right? Like we always want to be a collaborative partner and act as an extension of a client's team. And really, I think that's what works really well in that formula. Our clients trust us and we have proven results. So often we can make some pretty big moves in eight weeks still.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, easy. No problem. Eight weeks. Easy.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I didn't agree to a migration in eight weeks.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so it one of the one of the things that was really interesting for us when we start talking to you guys is the stuff you're doing in Amir. Um, and I had the pleasure of meeting Bob uh a couple of weeks ago in Delft. He showed me around his town and uh we had a good old chat. And I think the um the uh acquisition of of code it seems to be working really well for you guys. Um, I think I'd be interested to know as well as the the listeners would be interested to know if you're a US brand entering Europe for the first time, what what are the common mistakes that you guys see?
SPEAKER_01:One of the common mistakes that you can have if you're a US brand entering uh Europe is maybe taking some of the strategies that you take within North America and applying it in the same way to European um customers. You know, that every shopper is going to shop in a slightly different way. The way that you need to handle compliance is uh naturally different. And a lot of the partners that you use in North America may not have scaled to the same feature set that would expose and enable a European customer base. And so a lot of the time it's good to take a step back, um, use the leadership that has experience in the ecosystem. You know, we partnered with Code uh because Code has been servicing European clients for over 20 years. They know what it's like to uh talk to customers in Northern Europe and how that is different to talking to a customer in the UK. They know what it is like to uh have a partner relationship with an on-site uh fulfillment center. One of the biggest questions that we have from uh even existing clients uh wanting to understand how they can best enable a European uh strategy is who do I partner with? Uh who do who's who do who can fulfill my products? How do I manage um potential uh duties and tariffs by being able to set up my legal um entities and my fulfillment ecosystems in the right way within the countries that I feel like are gonna take off? And so you know there's a heavy consultation um uh relationship that the right agency can have. And it goes far beyond just building those features and going live. It really goes into the way that you um think about the end-to-end flow and uh the way that you start to really refine and localize your strategies. The other thing that is interesting is how you think about your operations and do you need to spin up your unknown like an operational center of excellence within Europe, um, how that could play into your discounting structure, how you might need to fragment data and set up your own e-commerce uh systems to be able to uh add that flexibility. Uh, it's often like a core, a cruel walk-run approach, and you can do a lot um, you know, quite quickly and iterate from there. But as you kind of grow and you build your own understanding of your brand in different countries, uh often you'll see that some of the requirements and the growth that you need to do starts to really make those independent uh European strategies like stand on their own away from North America. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and actually, Kim, from a pure delivery point of view, actually getting build, deployed, supported. Are there any nuances or any changes that you've picked up on in going through that process with code?
SPEAKER_00:Uh not yet. Um, you know, we've kind of been focused a lot on my end in the mid-market, a lot of those US brands that are looking to kind of just scale in the US before they're expanding into that. But previously we have had some clients prior to code where you know they had a strong US presence, also UK, and really just understanding, yeah, like Max said, the consumer behavior, also how those teams function differently internally and making sure we can marry up, you know, when features are getting released so that both teams are in sync because they're kind of operating on different timelines as well. So there's definitely a lot of uh nuances there.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. And we we talked about uh cross-border a bit and we talked about local payments. Uh are there any other like Shopify tools that are quite helpful when you're looking at things like um markets, duties, taxes when you're working in a MIA space?
SPEAKER_01:Well, one of the main partnerships you you may evaluate as a partner that doesn't have a legal entity or doesn't want to handle um, wants a helping hand with handling some of the overhead of duties and taxes and compliance is using a company like GlobalE to be able to offload a lot of the burden for you. So someone like Global E can really automate a big element of kind of your tax compliance um burden there and also allow you to stand up a legal entity in region by being the merchant of record. So often when someone's kind of coming in and they're getting past a you know, does this make sense for me to put more effort into is a conversation of uh starting to kind of spin up the right back-end structures to be able to support accelerated growth in that region?
SPEAKER_03:Whilst we're talking about uh about Europe, um historically one of the issues that have been flagged with Shopify, to my knowledge, has been its ability to interact with a country across multiple languages. A lot of European countries speak, let's take, I don't know, um Belgium, for example, now speak Dutch and now speak French. How's the platform developed over the last couple of years to to handle um this issue that was previously uh previously quite common and frustrating for brands?
SPEAKER_01:It's evolved quite considerably to be able to support like multilingual uh front ends. And so maybe like four years ago you were using uh maybe a bit further uh in the past than that, using a third party to be able to take on the even the storing of localized strings across a lot of your data, including your dynamic data like like products and collections. Now that comes out of the box. And so if you're using Shopify, uh there's the ability to you know create the and store those strings directly within the CMS, and then there's a a strong group of partners that enable you to automate some of the operational burden of being able to support your core data in multiple languages, um, such as like companies that will help you automate and then approve, and so you always have the human touch there. And so I'd say, like from a technical standpoint, um translations are kind of stable table stakes right now, um, and there's some major strides that Shopify has done to really be able to support that, and um, it's fully ingrained into the platform at this point.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Okay, and going back to uh your comment around um how uh companies didn't approach the markets in the same way. I mean, it seems uh looking at this quite naively, quite crazy to think that a business would approach expanding into Europe, which has multiple countries, multiple languages, multiple types of individuals um that all shop in different ways, the same way as which they would approach the US, for example. Um, is that is that a genuine uh genuine conversation that you have with with clients?
SPEAKER_01:It depends on the size of the client as well. Like a lot of companies that are get go get getting going and expanding and testing if a market is gonna be right for them, is even enabling an international approach, which is as simple as enabling like a new ship to location that ships internationally. And so there is an element of like growth that you will start on, which is um, I'm gonna probably not like make major changes to my customer journey to be able to service different parts of the globe, and then it's a kind of growth from there to then say, okay, well, actually, I'm seeing a lot of my transactions start to originate from a core market. I'm gonna invest a little bit more into that market. Um, and then what does that mean for my third parties? What does it mean for my personalization approaches? Do my uh do my third parties allow me to start to kind of refine my uh content and my uh strategies at the at the country level? And so there's kind of like a leg up, I'd say, like for a mature brand that is well attuned to being able to service different international areas, like for sure, like that's kind of baked in. You've often got someone that is uh um hired to be a leader in that space of the world, um, that's able to really speak to and they have their own governance system that really understands the culture. But it takes a number, you know, it takes brands that are we have been really successful in a certain smaller subset of market to then test the waters, and it's often like a progressive journey that takes a few steps to get there.
SPEAKER_03:I remember a few years ago I was speaking to uh I mean I I can't I can't remember the the business, but they just ventured into the German market, and uh it took them a a number of weeks to find this out, but actually by incorporating pay on cash upon delivery, they managed to increase their sales substantially because the German market was just very far behind in its adoption to using card compared to the UK. And for so for someone that's been transitioned into a card first uh culture, it blew my mind, but um, it just goes to show the nuances between countries and how individuals like to shop.
SPEAKER_01:100%. And like an example from COED is they built a whole back-end um app that really focused on enabling like local pickup points, which is something that if you're outside of the environment, you know, you're gonna be creating relationships with like larger global shipping partners, but you're probably not gonna be thinking about like uh you know brick and mortar pickup points or kind of more minute of fulfillment strategy that really speaks to localized regions in the same way. So that would be kind of an area where um you know you you realize it and then you're looking for the right technology partner to enable that strategy.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like um I feel like logistics and that kind of order fulfillment, last mile delivery, that's a really interesting area right now. And there's a lot of a lot of innovation happening and speaking to people that uh companies like Inpost, for example, who uh seem to be changing the game in in how the UK market uh approaches uh last mile delivery uh with the uh the boxes that you put outside the supermarkets and what have you, and I think it's uh I think it's something that will continue to uh evolve across the whole of Europe. Do you guys have that in the States as well? We do. Like the lockers, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but it's not, it's a little bit more like focused on I'd say like Amazon um pickup points rather than it is yeah you know manifested in the same way as Europe.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. For uh for like returns, I find it amazing. You can process the return online, get the QR code, go to Locker, send it back in like 25 seconds, it's wicked. So uh so yeah, okay, just quickly, and um obviously the acquisition of code has uh made you the largest Shopify pure play partner globally. What have what has code added to domain's capabilities?
SPEAKER_01:So uh code is like a really core team of about primarily engineers that um mostly focused in uh in Delft, uh, as Tim said in Amsterdam. So the first thing that they we got really excited about code is the way that we had really strong synergy around the you know how excited we got about building technology forward um builds for Shopify clients. I mean, they're a pure play Shopify partner as well, and have been a long time. And um finding somebody in this ecosystem that you respond so positively to was something that got us really excited. So on the baseline, you know, being able to absorb and create a unified understanding of what technical excellence looks like is something that uh say like almost came out of the box. And we've gone through some lightweight integration, but it's we're already designing, building um in a very similar way that makes this uh you know really harmonic, harmonious connection. There's other elements there where like they've got a really strong back-end team as well that's got a lot of uh in market awareness. Um, they started as a back-end first company, uh then moved over to front end, which again is pretty novel in this space. Um, and they've had to build their company to cater to some of the complexity that comes in the AMIA market. And so uh they've scaffolded out templates around common fulfillment partners to make uh ease of onboarding onto Shopify seamless. They've you know built apps that allow for custom approaches to returns to speak to localized needs as well. So they take this kind of like deep understanding that you can't just you can't get as you know uh more of a US company coming into a new market and allowing us to really build upon that rather than starting from the ground up.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. And what's the head count now?
SPEAKER_01:Over 300 people.
SPEAKER_03:Over 300. And in Europe you've got people on the ground in UK, Netherlands, I think in Germany.
SPEAKER_01:Germany as well.
SPEAKER_03:Germany, anywhere else?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, we've got some team members in Italy and we've got some team members in Switzerland.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Take over.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then we've got an awesome crew of developers in Poland.
SPEAKER_03:Nice. Um all right. Um Tim, I think we've got the lightning round coming up next. Over to you.
SPEAKER_02:We have is the fun bit, the one everyone loves. Um I've got a few uh quifal questions. Um Max, if we can start with you, one KPI mode Merchants, merchants should be watching very closely right now.
SPEAKER_01:I'm really interested how acquisition is going to change over time, particularly as ChatGPT and other LLMs really take on a lot of the discovery. So pay attention to cost of acquisition, even have a look at your traffic attribution ratios because we're in a place of change.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. Kim, one tool they can retire today.
SPEAKER_00:Oh. I would say if anyone's still using some of the Metafield apps, uh we see a lot of that in mid-market. So we're kind of migrating them over to Shopify Native just to reduce some of that tooling and take advantage of that.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. And then you mentioned uh we're in a big period of change, Max. And that's through AI, predominantly. So one AI productivity hack that you personally use, which everyone listening can then pick up and start to use themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Um well, my the personal thing that's been like enabling for me is like I spent so much time in front of the computer that it's nice to hand write notes. But when you handwrite notes, they just live in your notebook. And so I've learned that Shopify, that ChatGPT is really good at transcribing your personal notes so you can get them online. So I mean, every day at this point, I'm writing in a diary, I'm using ChatGPT to transcribe, and then I'm putting them online and sharing them with other people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely, definitely a good one. I'll consider that one myself. Um, favorite Shopify B2B feature for you, Kim.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I would say uh really getting deep on catalog pricing. Uh, we've done some really complex B2B work for that client, Chillowich, that I mentioned previously. And yeah, I think we've been able to really dial in what they need for each of those customer segments.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. Then finally, Max, uh actually, I've during the course of the last hour, it's become very apparent is you have a real depth of technical knowledge of the product. It's been really interesting for me and I'm sure for James as well to be able to listen and understand more. Um, for those listeners, and a lot of these people would be focused on Shopify. It's going to be pretty clear what the podcast is about. Is there any piece of content that you might recommend for them?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll do a plug first. Like read our insights newsletter. We have our own newsletter, it has a lot of our own material, our own like thought leadership, as well as some events in local areas that you can come and kind of talk to the team that we have here. Then outside of domain, just read Jobify's editions. They launch uh this rolling roster of you know releases every six months. Um, there's a huge amount there to digest. It really shows how fast the platform is moving, and you could spend hours just kind of learning about some of these new building blocks that you can build experiences with.
SPEAKER_02:Presumably, you take all the documentation, put it into Jack GBT, and ask it just to give you a summary, right?
SPEAKER_01:You can, you can. Yeah, you might miss some uh magical bits, but you can do that. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:You took my trick. Uh I've got one final question. We're gonna be releasing this in Q4. That is a super important quarter for merchants. If there was one concrete action that they could take this quarter, what would it be?
SPEAKER_01:Mine is gonna be technical. Like, look at your web performance, see if there's opportunities to make it better. Um, more than ever, we're seeing the importance of creating really fast experiences online. It might be something that you take for granted, it may be something that you put to the side, but it's an area where you know the returns will be compounding.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, gone, Kim. Moshos.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, to we'll piggyback on Max's for sure. I think it's one of those things that always doesn't feel like flashy and BFC MNF or even you know, gearing up for that busy season. Definitely important to get on the roadmap, but also working with your email marketing team. You know, there's obviously an over spam element. We all get that from a million brands, and making sure you're kind of timing that content and meeting the customer at the right spot um to make sure they are going to purchase and choose you over another brand.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Well, I think on that note, it brings an end to the conversation. Thank you very much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Cheers, guys, thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Really enjoyed this one. So um, yeah, thanks again for for your time. I know how busy you guys are. As I've already touched upon, it is a very busy time of the year. Um but look, the Shopify training isn't slowing down anytime soon. So it's great to get your insights onto the market, both North America and and the EMEA. Um and to our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, please do like and share it across your networks. Even better, hit the subscribe button. I'll see you next time. Thank you.
