Shopify, Headless & The Real Cost of Ecommerce Growth - with Marina Milojkovic, Grebban

Are brands looking far enough ahead when evaluating ecommerce platforms?

On the latest episode of The FODcast, James sits down with Marina Milojkovic, VP UK at Grebban, to unpack why total cost of ownership in ecommerce is often far more complex than brands initially expect.

From app sprawl and operational complexity, through to team structure, ownership and long-term scalability, the conversation explores why platform decisions cannot just be evaluated on implementation cost alone.

We cover a whole host of topics including:

• Why Shopify doesn’t always mean lower TCO long term
• The hidden cost of apps, integrations and operational complexity
• Why brands need to look at years three and four, not just implementation
• How regular TCO audits can help keep tech stacks lean
• Why TCO, AI, brand experience and UX are increasingly part of the same ecommerce investment conversation

A really practical discussion for brands reviewing their ecommerce setup, planning a replatform, or simply trying to understand where complexity and cost actually come from.

Listen | Share | Comment

#FODcast #DigitalCommerce #eCommerce #Shopify #Centra #RetailTech 

Simply Commerce is the leading supplier of talent into digital commerce across technology, digital marketing, product, sales, and leadership.

Find our more about our approach and our services within digital commerce recruitment here: https://simply-commerce.co.uk/

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Marina

James 0:04

Hello and welcome back to the forecast, The Future of All Things Digital Commerce. Today, I'm pleased to welcome Marina Milo I knew how to get that wrong. Nailed it in the warm-up, eh? Today I'm pleased to welcome Marina Miloikovic, VP of UK for Grebin, a leading design and e-commerce agency based in Northern Europe and the UK. Now Marina's been leading the UK expansion for Greben, who are key partners to both Centra and Shopify, two of the most spoken about platforms in the UK digital commerce space right now. Fittingly, we'll be diving into TCO, complexity, and where brands actually win, because in reality, most issues don't come from the platform you're on, they come from how businesses use it. On a personal note, I'm having more and more conversations around TCO and Shopify and how it's not always as low as you might think. But currently I'm hogging the show. So before we jump in, Marina, do you want to give our listeners a quick overview of your experience and your role in Greben?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Cool. Thanks so much, James. It's great to be here. Think you did a good job with the last name. But yeah, so I'm Marina, uh VP UK, but that doesn't really kind of describe what I do. But yeah, I mean, I head up our UK expansion. We've been uh present in the UK now for two years. Um I myself also uh you know advise the brands that we work with, both in terms of you know design and brand um agendas, but then also everything tech, even you know, we're gonna do a replatform and advice on that, but even also like the you know nitty-gritty details of uh you know how they should set up their architecture or functional requirements and stuff like that. So, you know, everything from how do they you know realize the the brand online um to what you know uh tech do they need to support that. Uh so that's kind of my role. And like you said, um we work with both Centra and Shopify and a couple of other platforms, but those are the main ones. Um we we kind of say as an agency that we create um digital flagship stores, so we're heavily focused on on design and brand. Um, and and we do work with a lot of fashion brands that of course sits very well with that. So yeah.

James 2:24

Excellent. Well, someone that uh has conversations similar to hopefully how our one goes today, every week with different customers of different shapes and sizes. Is it fair to say that you speak to customers across both Northern Europe and the UK, Marina?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yes, we actually do have a few US clients as well. But yeah, so I mean my my area is obviously the UK, but we have you know, we have brands that we've worked with for, you know, seven, eight years here in back in Sweden. So of course I I give a lot of attention to them as well. So we operate both in terms of you know uh retainer and and new dev, but then also like re-platform projects or redesign projects. So we so we we kind of always have a long-standing relationship with with our brand. So I'm I'm a bit all over the place, but UK is uh my main focus.

James 3:14

Awesome.

The Shopify TCO Myth

James 3:15

All right, so let's jump in with uh with TCO, total cost of ownership. I touched upon it at the start. I think if we go back for as many years as we would like, uh you've often associated Shopify with reducing TCO. Interestingly, over the last six months in particular, I've been involved in more conversations where maybe that's not the case. Uh, and I know you've done some interesting work on this area, particularly in the last kind of six or twelve months. So I think let's um let's uh start with the the myth that is Shopify will reduce your TCO. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Cool, yeah. So I mean I think where it usually starts is that like you say, like, oh, we need to we need to we need to reduce TCO, let's go Shopify. And I think where you kind of start with that is that you know, you you you do a a spreadsheet and you put up all the tools and services and hosting costs and all of that that you have today, and and you kind of then you know direct uh compare that to Shopify, and then there's only like one line because it's Shopify and everything's in there basically. Uh then you add a couple of apps and so on. But I think uh where kind of this perception and hopefully, you know, what people start realizing, or you know, what we do or what I do when when I do this exercise is that I feel like brands tend to, you know, look, you know, year one, maybe year two, and then they kind of forget what happens, you know, right year three or four, which you know, if if if you're a brand, you expect growth. And so I think what we see with Shopify, yeah, it reduces the TCO maybe year one, two, but then year three and four, actually that's not the case because many different reasons that we'll probably come to, but and that's where we actually then have seen that you know as a a a TCO on Centra actually is lower year even two sometimes, but depends on obviously how aggressive your your growth um goal are. But but generally like Shopify is is lower like one year one, two, but then we've seen recently that Centra kind of outperforms um Shopify there. So I think that's the whole like you know, that brands kind of tend to look at you know what what is it today and what's it gonna be next year, but then they don't kind of compare the TCO with like the expected growth, so to say.

James 5:50

What what and that's a really interesting point you make, and it I find that quite interesting because as a brand, like you said, you expect to grow. Also, now I completely understand that it predicting what's gonna happen in three years from now is gonna be incredibly tough, particularly of how the last couple of years are gone. But you need to to to take that into consideration when doing something large like a replatform. So uh d why is it that you believe brands don't look at sort of three or four years ahead? Is there a particular reason?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Actually, I I don't think there is a particular reason. I think it's it's it's you know, sometimes you know, I meet brands or I talk to brands where you know the TCO has just like skyrocketed. They could they could actually be on Shopify already or you know, another platform, and you know, they end up with so many apps, so many custom things and and and all of that. So I think there's no like you know, clear answer. I think you know it's it's the kind of easy way to go about it. It's I I think people kind of you know underestimate how how much time you also need to spend doing a TCO. Like we usually call it a discovery because it's not a TCO, is you know, just a small, small piece of the puzzle when you kind of do this whole I mean often you come to a TCO when you're you know doing a read platform or you're identifying that you need to do a read platform. So I think again, it's it's it I I don't think there's a clear answer on on why brands look at you know this year, next year. Um but but yeah.

Hidden Costs Beyond Licence Fees

James 7:26

Okay. Outside of the apps that say come with Shopify, what what other areas do they uh do they uh not not evaluate fully when it comes to TCO?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

I think the biggest um mistake um, and this goes for all platforms, uh I think the biggest mistake brands do when doing the TCO exercise is uh not kind of including what you know the time spent on the tools. Like license fees is one thing, but you know, how do you operate with these tools and this platform? How much time do you need to spend? Because you know, obviously time is money. So if you have an e-com coordinator or e-com, you know, manager, how much time do they actually have to spend to understand that app or that integration to get like the most out of it? So I think it's easy to you know have that spreadsheet and kind of pretend this is just a you know line item exercise, but it's also like what's the organization like? Who are we gonna hire? Who, you know, what team sits where? Who, you know, works together. So I think that's also something super important when it comes to looking at the TCO and not only looking at what is the actual license fee here, what is also like how do we how much time do we need to spend on the different you know platforms tools and and all of that in the in the architecture also.

James 8:51

Yeah, that that's yeah, that's something that's uh super important, definitely. Not that you've obviously got time, but I guess also you would look at like the the actual headcount as well, how many people do you need within the business to fulfill that role and what are their average salaries and so on and so forth. Obviously, you mentioned about the the central piece, and obviously given your key partners to central fire, a lot of this conversation will focus on those platforms. But just last week I spoke to somebody who's uh big Salesforce partner and they said they did a a TCO exercise, and for the business that they have evaluated or reviewed, the Salesforce came in like I think can't remember the exact number, but it's substantially lower TCO than it was Shopify for that business. I think they were like a 70 mil turnover retail brand, um which I found quite interesting. It's the first time I've had Salesforce amongst that reduced TCO conversation.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Right.

James 9:42

And it sounds like they're gonna be attacking that market somewhat. So I'm quite interested to see how it all pans out over this year.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah, no, I think that's super interesting. And and like you said, head count, and then of course, like, and we'll probably get into that later on, but you know, what can AEI do with like optimization and automization and all of that? So I think the whole like TCO exercise is is just gonna evolve and I and I see that. I mean, it when I did a TCO like two years ago, it it was very much a line sheet, you know, exercise and and and I do feel like now people look at the broader, you know, perspective around it. And uh but yeah, I think we we need to start, you know, looking at what happens year three and four. And like you say, even if it's impossible to know what's what's in the future these days, you still have your growth plan. You still, you know, are you gonna enter new markets, new product categories? Um, are you gonna expand the team or not? Like you still have your ambition and you have your business goals and business plan and all of that. So I think TCO is gonna become more and more just, you know, more things in it and just not like this is the license fees.

James 10:51

Yeah. But like particularly for those that are ambitious, right? Like you said, that want to unlock new new markets and grow in new areas, that's gonna have a substantial impact. So something you need to be considering. So do you do you feel as though when you have these conversations with customers, they believe that to reduce their T show they need to replatform, or do many kind of think they can reduce their T-shirt maintaining their current technology stack?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Um I would say both again, maybe a boring answer, but like we do see, I mean, we do um we do projects where they're you know on Shopify and they want to stay on Shopify, but they want to rebuild it. So, you know, often, and we'll probably get more into this as well, but like you you you get to a point where like you've created a monster basically, uh, and so you're looking to, you know, redesign, and that's usually when when we come into the picture and and we kind of do an audit on like the Shopify setup, so it's say. And that's when we kind of can come with the recommendation, like, oh wait, you have two things that basically does the same thing here. Um so I think it's it's not necessarily that the TCO comes in in play when you replatform, it's it's when you kind of take that step back and like we're redesigning or rebuilding, because again, you you can you can be on Shopify and stay on Shopify as well. So we we see that a lot as well, where you know the the conversation starts from a redesign perspective. The site is you know maybe three, four years old. Uh they haven't invested in design or a brand or UX or you know, customer journey. And while they do that, and we do a redesign and we're re you know, we're implementing that new design, let's also, you know, kind of rebuild the front end and and that ecosystem. So I think it's and I think that's something that you know more brands on Shopify should do. Uh they should do that kind of TCO or date or discovery every two, three years, maybe.

James 12:46

Okay. I was going to ask actually how often should they do this?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah, because I mean, again, it depends on size of brand and team. And you know, if it's a big team, then a lot of stuff probably gets added on top. Uh, but if it's a small team, a lean team, they they hopefully know what they're doing and they're not adding stuff to solve one problem and then adding something else to to solve another problem. Um, but you know, so I think but I think it's healthy to do it as often as as as you know not possible. But I think two two, three years is because if you if you're doing a redesign or bigger initiatives, why not? And and and you know, if you have the right partner or right agency or you know, freelancer or whatever, like there's so much knowledge also in the space. So like take advantage of of that basically.

James 13:35

Yeah, I think from the outside in, it seems sort like a very sensible exercise to be doing something like this every two years if you can, definitely every three years. Yeah. Obviously, technologies evolving so fast. Obviously, we'll talk about AI, I'm sure, in a fair amount of detail shortly. Obviously, the markets constantly changing. Um obviously if your business is growing as well, like your plans could evolve and look at new markets. Like it's it seems like an exercise that's certainly something you want to be doing relatively regularly, like you said, um without overcome.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

You know, maybe even off more often, if we look into the future and or you know what, if we look back a year in 2025, we got you know new, like the market and and you know, the possibilities and capabilities almost changed every month with you know both AI, tariffs, the world, so to say. Um you know, maybe we'll come to a place where this is something every brand has in their you know roadmap every year. Like as much as you, you know, optimize page speed every year, you also have a a ticket in your sprint that's like TCO. Maybe that's the future. I don't know.

James 14:42

But maybe we get to a point where we use AI to do our TCO check entirely and it runs automatically every 12 months, right? Just in the background and then pops up. So, you can use a cost hireling.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Take a ticket. That's a good business idea.

James 14:58

Yeah, maybe yeah. Well, not one that I'm good enough to set up, but so there you go. Freebie for anyone listening.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Exactly. That's

App Bloat And The Ownership Problem

SPEAKER_00 15:05

one app.

James 15:05

Um so look, we spoke a bit about apps and a bit of complexity, and I think it'd be good to to talk a bit more about that because I guess tell me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of chats that I have um reference complexity and um over app usage, or however you want to talk of maybe bloated tech stacks. Um seems if we're looking at Shopify, which I'll reference quite a bit, it seems like a lot of companies pay for a lot of apps, they don't need them, they don't use them. Like let's talk, let's let's focus on complexity itself and why yeah, why is it a growing problem?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I think this is also interesting, and and you know, we do we do work with a lot of like mid-sized brands, so you know, I I see this a lot, and with you know, all respect to them, it's so easy to get there. I just want to get that out there for any, you know, mid-size small brand who who listens to this. Like it's uh it I see it happen so easy, especially then with Shopify, because like you say, like there's an app, I download it, I install it, and you know, oh it didn't quite do what I expected. Let's add this other thing that I that I saw. So I think it's it it happens so easily, and I and that it you kind of get blind, so to say. Like it's I I think people add, add, add, and then it's so hard to kind of go back and like uninstall because then you're kind of scared of like if you remove this little thing, what will happen, you know? So I think you know it's easy to add, but it's even harder to remove, so to say, because you don't know the dependencies and and so on. So I don't know if that was an answer to your question, but um yeah.

James 16:51

Yeah, yeah. I mean, but I mean like you said, if it's if it's easy to add them, then you'll say you can quickly get sucked into adding and adding and adding, and then I guess you get to a point where you don't know what they're doing, you don't know what's being used or how it's being used. You may even have two apps doing the same thing. Try and compare it to a phone. I look at my phone and you mean I'll just randomly download an app and I'll never use it. Uh and then it's there, and I've probably got about third of them at the minute.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah.

James 17:16

I've started to try and remove them, but I guess the difference here is these are integrated into your business, they're probably doing something. Um possibly paying for them as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

And yeah, and I think also what's important here, and we'll probably get to that more as well, like you know, having clear ownership, I think that's also something that, you know, say you have an e-comm team of like four or five people, you have like the e-com director and an e-com manager, and then you have an e-comm coordinator, and you know, you have four people that all can install apps or or and and you have kind of no clear ownership, and then someone leaves the business, and then someone comes and they have experience with this great app that helped them uh, you know, in their previous brand. So they're gonna use that because that's gonna make their job easier. So I think again, like I think clear ownership on on a Shopify setup is super important. I think that's when when we see when I see a really, really like lean and good setup on Shopify, there's clear ownership. Like I am, you know, the I'm responsible for this integration or app and or even on Centra and Headless, like in doing, you know, API integrations and all of that. Like if you have clear ownership and it's documented and how it's used and why and what for, that's that's when when we see the best setups. And I think that's like the um the reality that we come from. That again, it's been so easy. So people just like and then you know, leave businesses, come back, new businesses, and and um there's no clear ownership.

James 18:49

I think that's um that that's ownership seems to be the the issue. So in and I guess that there's gonna be a lot every business is is has its uh is unique in its own way, right? But I guess the if you take the the Grebin Grebbins sort of standard ICP, what what would a lean um setup look like to you?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Um I mean if you go into Shopify and what what we see, so um I mean we we do work with like B2B and and you know uh other like segments and and and so on, but our biggest, you know, ICPs obviously like fashion brands, international, uh women's fashion, men's fashion, uh, you know, mid-size, uh sell, you know, global, um maybe an e-com team of you know six, seven people. Uh they focus a lot of brand design and and and so on. That's kind of like the the typical graban client, like Osprey London in in um in the UK or um NN07 and you know, brands like that. So um I think uh what what what's interesting now is that so usually a brand comes to us, they're on Shopify or another platform, and they're either, you know, like I said, doing a redesign, staying on Shopify by rebuilding everything, or they're re-platforming to Sentra or Shopify.

Fewer Tools Deeper Integrations

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And we kind of advise, you know, if if it's Shopify, we we do Shopify, we use Shopify for everything that it's good at. But if there is, and then obviously you use apps for for things, maybe you have three or four four apps that you need. But what I think it's important to mention here is that, and what I see more and more is that so we we we don't do much Shopify headless, but if you know, for some brands that we work with, often, you know, founder-led strong brands with strong community, maybe they want to do something super custom with like UGC or community or loyalty or you know, stuff like that. We kind of now tend to uh see how we can do that API first, even on a Shopify headless, or or not on a Shopify setup. So it's it's standard Shopify, so to say, but say that we would integrate Yachtpo API first, because we want that experience to be, you know, fully brand focused. Um, so I think that's something interesting also. Like, you know, you have the Shopify setup, you have quite a few apps that really does what you want them to do, but then you kind of double down on like one service that like your business is all about, say community or um loyalty, and that's when we do something custom, you know, on top of everything else. And I think that's something that we're gonna see more and more. And I think again, that's super common when you look at a headless setup or like if we go with Centra. And I think what's interesting there is that, you know, people, brands, and especially, you know, this is what I see in the UK. I think it's it's different here in Sweden. Um, but in the UK, where like headless kind of Has a bad reputation currently. Like, oh, it's it's over engineering, it's it's it's getting crazy basically. But you know, we kind of have on Centra, and we've you know been Centra partners for you know over 10 years. So we kind of have a good tech stack and architecture that we recommend, which again, it's like you have the Centra as the core like you know, econ platform, and you have you have a CRM, you maybe have a tool for search and merch, fewer, but better and API first, basically. So I think for both Shopify and Centra, it's we see we do see brands focusing on fewer and kind of better and bigger, so to say, and like because there's so many good ones out there that can really do. I think we come from there was a lot of apps doing one thing, and like you have this for this and that for that, but now we see obviously the whole like ecosystem around e-commerce is evolving every day. So um we do see brands kind of doing fewer but kind of deeper, so to say, if that makes sense.

James 23:10

Yeah, that does that does make sense actually, which um I guess going back to your point around the ecosystem around commerce evolving somewhat would also explain why there are businesses with more and more apps because they're like, oh, let's try this, and uh we've there's that app there, let's try that. And you're always looking for that shiny new thing when you may or may not even need it, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yep.

James 23:31

Interestingly, I spoke to a couple of other Shopify partners and they were saying they obviously do audits, as I'm sure you guys do, and often there'll be businesses with like 30 apps, but they use like five of them or they need five of them. Uh and I found that crazy the amount of money that must get wasted is insane.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

No, I mean I've seen setups that kind of stresses me out. I'm like, how did you even know that you have this? Like I'm a person myself. Like, if you would look at my phone, I have like 10 apps. Like, I'm not an app person, so like and I and I kind of like stuff clean and structured and all of that. But like, like you say, I mean, I see brands with like even you know, more than 30 apps, and it's like, and you then you ask them like what do you use that for? And and they're like, oh, that someone else installed that. She or he is no longer in the business. So I think this happens a lot because people move around and all of that. So, you know, back to my point of like ownership again. And I think again, you know, mentioning like in the UK, people are a bit scared or like, you know, they see a bit a big risk with headless. And I think again, if if you do headless, if you go Centra and all of that, or even other platforms, um, again, ownership. Like if you have clear ownership over, you know, a headless architecture, you're safe. You're good.

James 24:48

You're right in what you say about headless. Like I feel like it's such a marmite word. So like there's you're really you're there's it's there's you're really pro it or you're really anti-it. And it amazes me.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Really, yeah. No, and I and again, like in Sweden, and obviously since Santra is a you know massive platform here and in in in Scandinavia, but I also think maybe we need to kind of like rebrand headless or call it somewhat that's some something else, or or you know, but I think again, like people because you know, we have brands that have an e-com team of three people on you know a central headless solution. And it works perfectly. And it's because like they have clear responsibilities, clear ownership, they know why every integration or you know, service is there. They know what what it does and what it you know supports and the the the dependencies and all of that. So I think that's also something that uh maybe going off topic now, but that brands see that, you know, oh, if you're going headless, you need a big team. You know, last year we launched two central sites, or actually one of them is launching very soon, but the team is like three people. And I find that quite interesting as well.

James 26:04

So that's a big misconception then that you need a big team for something headless.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I think so, yeah, because like it's this big, you know, scary thing. And um and yeah, this brand that we're launching later in in in the spring, that that kind of conversation they were on Magento, and that conversation kind of started from like, oh, we need to replatform, like we we can't stay on Magento. We know about Shopify, but we've never heard about Centra. So obviously, like we had to do a discovery and and and they're kind of you know redoing everything, ERP and and all of that. Um it's a UK brand. So and again, that's where the TCO and Centra ended up lower, like year you know, three, four. Uh but again, it's a it's it's basically it it's even a team of two, depending on how you see it, because you know, two or three, it depends on what the MD kind of wants to do.

James 26:59

Um just on that note quickly, then so do you do you feel as though, just going back to this this headless piece? I feel as though uh it it it it is that kind of marmite word in the UK, you know. Part of me feels it's because a lot of businesses probably jumped on the bandwagon of going down the headless route without really understanding if they needed to.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yes.

James 27:22

As such, they've embarked on a piece of work that probably cost them more money than they were expecting. They probably weren't sure what success looked like, so they potentially saw it as a failure, and as such, it's now um just left a trailer of devastation like in its wake, basically. Do you feel as though that's the reality as of what happened, Marino, or have I kind of got the wrong end of the stick there?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

No, I think you're absolutely right, especially with like they didn't know what success would look like. I think that's a super interesting thing here, and I think that again comes from like it it still is, but it was a you know new thing. Um so I think that's super interesting, and and and that again comes back to like why we always kick off projects with you know a discovery, and especially if it is around like replatforming or like are we staying on Shopify or are we you know moving away from Magento or whatever? Always start with, you know, the why. Why would we do this? Why would we go headless? What would you know what possibilities would would you know unlock? In this case that I referred to like they're super like design and brand is so so so important. And I think that's we are we we kind of work with you know e-com an e-com platform kind of scorecard where we kind of bench different, you know, business uh goals and you know, business setups and and all of that where we kind of score different platforms. Um that's usually also something like TCO, e-com uh platform scorecard, and and a couple of other things is is always a part of a discovery. And um I think again, people who went headless too quickly didn't do this exercise of like why? Like it was the new kid on the block, maybe, and like, oh, let's do this. But I think it's super interesting what you say of like they didn't define what success would be like. And I think again, like when we when we talk to brands of that are, you know, either going Shopify or Centra, it's it's like, what do you want? Again, like with the TCO, what do you want year three and four to look like? And I think again, when it comes to also this conversation, which is important to mention, is that uh, and and and it's also a conversation that I have with a lot of like design heavy or like brand heavy uh brands, like, do you want to bet on the brand or do you kind of want to bet on the platform? Because that's also really the difference here. If you go the Shopify route, you kind of bet on that platform. What they develop for you, that's kind of what you get. Um, and if you take the other route, say with Centra, of course you bet on the platform, but you'll also have more flexibility. You can do more customization, you you know, you can do things around the platform in an easier way. So I think that's also very important. And if you and and again, like betting on Shopify is so good. Like obviously it's you know the world's biggest platform, so I totally get that. Um, but if you're a brand, I usually say, and maybe it's a weird, um but like imagine you know you're at Prada, but then you go to the checkout, and that's a boots self scan. That's pretty much Shopify. You can do the coolest experience, it's safe, it's good. But then when you come to the checkout, you can't do anything basically. It it's it's standard. Um, but you know, if you if you go Santra, you own the whole customer journey. So um and and Joe, I quite like the Shopify checkout.

James 31:02

I'm not gonna lie. It's probably my preferred checkout.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

It's great. I mean, I use it not every day, but every week at least. Um but you know, it's it's it's it's obviously really good. It's probably the best checkout out there, because you know, it's it's probably the most used one. So they have the most data and they optimize it all the time. So I'm not saying it's it's bad, it's more that again, like how important is brand for you? And again, like I think the Prada kind of uh analogy is is is interesting here because like it is really like you have this like super nice experience, um, but then you kind of end up it it's just the same for everyone. And you know, some brands don't care about that, but I think the checkout is just one example. Obviously, we see with Shopify like my account and other sections that they kind of you know not lock up more and more, but basically like you can't do as much customization. So I think that's you know, getting into this discovery of like, why would we go headless? Why would we go centra? What is important? Is it you know getting up, you know, quick uh get getting the site up quick and and and kind of do trade? Shopify is great. But if you kind of really want to put time and effort on, you know, brand and that whole experience and creating desire and you know all of that, then you know maybe Centra is a better option. But both are you know great platforms.

James 32:31

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and that that's it, right? I think it's fair to say that they're both they're both great platforms. They are there's also plenty of other very good platforms out there. I think we're quite we're quite fortunate to have as the choice that we have. I've I've been recruiting now for 15 years in the commerce world, and for a long time it was hybrids, magento, demandware. Obviously, there was IBM, but that that was kind of phasing out as I was moving into it. And then you had like WooCommerce, right? But I never did much in WooCommerce, and now we're looking at far more platforms. Yeah. Um I think someone told me the other day there's like 500 e-commerce platforms, which I found astonishing. I thought there was about 25, but um I guess there's 500! Apparently globally, yeah. I guess there's a lot of unique ones in like Asia and what have you, do you know what I mean? That we're not familiar with, but um there's some really cool platforms, and you can do some really cool things on them. Um interestingly, we we spoke about Headless and how maybe the myth around the complexity to man and the technical know-how to manage it um it is exaggerated kind of thing.

Centra Versus Composable Complexity

James 33:36

Um I guess I look at Centra, obviously, is a headless first platform, built composability in mind. We had this whole composable shift a couple of years ago, didn't we? Where a lot of companies are similar to Headless, they went down the composable journey, realized there's a bit of a bit more they could chew, they they couldn't handle it, they didn't have enough money, they didn't define what success looked like. How is Centra different? Because you're talking the way you're you're explaining Centra to me is that it does it gives the flexibility, but it doesn't have the complexity, which I find really interesting, and and maybe I've just misunderstood. Um obviously I'm looking at this from a super non-technical point of view, right? Um if you do get that, if you do get that flexibility without all of the depth of complexity, then it sounds like a really compelling uh platform and and proposition for for brands.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah, I'm like, is this a too uh difficult question for me to answer? But uh we'll cut it out if I don't come up with anything uh okay.

James 34:36

Even high level would be good to hear your thoughts, right? Even just just for me personally, so there we go.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah, but I think again, I mean, you know, it also, and obviously I am gonna say this because I'm an agency person, but again, sometimes I do think that brands kind of start in the wrong, you know, wrong side of things. Usually they, you know, come and say, like, oh, we're gonna re-platform, and they kind of pick the platform first. I would maybe advise to the other way around. And obviously, again, like I'm agency, so I'm gonna say that, but also like not even agency. Like, there's a lot of like, you know, e-com experts and you know, all of that. That so I would maybe like pick your partner first, because they are gonna answer these questions. And I think again, with I think we're maturing in that in that space, and I think that's what Centra learned pretty fast. That like let's you know, their go-to-market strategy is like partners, and if they educate their partners and agencies that build on the platform, that's gonna um you know make things a lot better and easier. So I think again, it comes down to who kind of builds it as well. So, you know, usually uh because Centra is obviously you know the e-com platform, but you you if if you go Centra, you you you sometimes even don't need a PIM because you have everything in there. So you have Centra, and then you maybe have like an ERP, you know, Centra and down. But on top of that, obviously you have a CMS, uh, you have a CRM, and then you have you know a couple of more you know integrations that you need. If you're very omni-heavy and you have stores, obviously you have something for that. If if you work with community and reviews and all that, you have something for that. So, and we also, since we have so many central brands, we also have something uh that we call an accelerator, where we kind of have a lot of API integrations because you know, e-comm businesses, fashion brands that we work with tend to all have the same um same needs, but also same challenges and and they all kind of have the same reality. So again, it comes down to working with the right partner. So, you know, and and um I know that other, you know, Centra agencies have this as well, but like they have we have an accelerator which makes us you know quicker, faster, because if we do something for one brand, we can kind of reuse it and do it for another brand, but you know, obviously customized design for them. So I think again, like with Centra, there's a lot of possibilities for agencies to kind of do their take on it as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Um I don't know if that answer makes sense, to be honest.

James 37:18

It made sense to me. Um I kind of get where you're you're where you're coming from in in terms of you've got the core out of the box functionalities, which are very good. So obviously you can customize them if you want to, like some of the other platforms, but actually, while is it's built kind of comp composability in mind, it's not necessarily just an e-commerce platform like a Commerce Tools, for example, where you would need the other components.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Exactly.

James 37:42

Yeah, so okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yeah, I mean Sentra has a lot of features where like we have brands that never you know use those uh features. So I think you know you don't have to to use everything. And and again, like as mentioned, like the the you kind of need to bet on the platform that that you d decide on. And I think that uh again, like betting on Shopify, they have a very, you know, broad roadmap, obviously. You can sell everything from beauty, fashion, you know, Shopify is for everyone, basically. But I think what's interesting with Sentra is that it's so fashion focused, so everything, you know, they even have like a B2B wholesale module as well. But I think that what's super interesting is that they solely kind of develop their roadmap for fashion brands, and you know, that's why they're so heavy on Omni and you know, all the the kind of fashion brand uh needs.

James 38:41

Yeah, and that's something I really like about the platform and how they build it for a specific target audience, and I think that's why it's probably doing well. It's obviously a great platform, but you need to have a a strong USP when approaching a new market. There is a lot of commerce platforms, like we've discussed, what makes you stand out? Cool, this is why, this is our this is our ICP, right? Bang. So okay. Now

Design That Creates Desire And Loyalty

James 39:03

look, you touched upon it earlier around like how brands can stand out. Is it about the do you want to double down on the technology? Do you want to focus on how your brand stands out, like branding, design, etc.? I mean, it'd be good to talk about that for a little bit because some of the some of the really successful brands, some of the cool brands, they are investing in UX. They're investing in how their website looks, storytelling, etc. Um, are you finding that your conversations are differing slightly from um technology to branding?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

100%. And this is what I'm most excited about, obviously. But yes, I mean, I think it it really comes from two things. One is that, you know, tech has become so democratized, like you know, anyone basically can get an e-com up and running. Again, thanks to Shopify. Like, it's so democratized. Tech, it's so modular. Like anyone can basically today with you know tools like Lovable and and and everything, that's super interesting. So that's one thing that tech is so much easier today than it was. So finally, people are talking about design and UX and customer journey and all of that. So that's one thing, uh which is like the reason to this. And I think number two is you know, there are so many brands out there. There is so much clothes if if we you know focus on fashion. And if you don't stand up if uh or stand out, if you don't have the best product, if you don't create desire, people are not gonna come back. Like if I, you know, need to buy a dress, like it's it's not hard to find a dress today. It is what what's difficult is for a brand is to to find people that you know stay loyal. And how do you get people to come back and stay loyal? You create desire. And that comes down to everything from the product, obviously, and the packaging, but also the site. So, you know, we've seen brands I'm gonna take Prada as an example again. Right. You know, they spend millions and millions of dollars on their you know, store physical stores. The site is cool, it's it's not a bad example for a site, but you know, it it it I think it's still you know amazing how the biggest you know fashion brands out there kind of treat their you know e-com site as just you know a product catalog basically. Um so I think there's so much opportunity here, and I think that's why the conversation is shifting, finally.

James 41:38

Finally. It sounds like it's been long overdue from your point of view. Yeah. Is it is it as prominent as you feel it should be, or do you feel like we're just at the start of that journey?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

We're just at a start. I feel like there's so much more, you know, to do here, and it it's such a big shift. I mean, um I I meet a lot of brands where like, oh, but where does that budget sit with brand? Or does it sit with marketing? Or does it sit with tech? And then they take a look because it's the site, and you need the tech to develop what we design, but it's also design, so it could sit with brand. So, you know, we're we're in the early stages of this, I think. And also then who owns it? Is it a brand director that owns kind of the e-com design, or is that the e-com team? That also depends on you know how how the organization is is set up. So there's no like one answer to this, and and I think that proves that it's still very early, early stages, but it's very exciting, and I think this is this is really the future. And again, with like AI and everything, tech is just gonna be even more simple, and and you know, uh the possibilities are endless. And I think what how how a brand can stand out is is really focusing on again like brand design, creating desire.

James 43:00

Yeah, I that Joe, I see that as something that's really cool. For a while now, many have said commerce is just a commodity, and you've kind of said the same, right? Tech is tech, it does largely does the same, regardless. So how can you stand out? What how can you brands are spending so much money to storytell and to promote their brand, engaging communities and do all that cool stuff? You need to you need to do take the customer through that same journey on your website. And yeah, like you said, I feel like we are just at the start of it now. I mean, is there any brands that come to mind that you think do a really good job with this right now, Marina?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

I think, I mean, I wish that I had more to say here, obviously. But I think I mean we work with Represent. I think they're doing an amazing job. Um, because they really push us and they want to invest in this. And I think you know, they're they're one of the early adopters of like this whole thinking, which I think is is so cool, and obviously it works. Um, I think you know, a brand that's really, really also good at this is ASOC. Like I think maybe ASUP is one of the few brands where you know if I go online or if I'm in a store, it's somewhat similar. Like I get it's not two like completely different experiences. Um, but yeah, I I I I wish that I could say more brands here, but you know, maybe ask me in the year again and I'll be able to example.

James 44:22

I do agree. I see it being uh being a bigger area of investment for many. I guess the challenge for them for many will be like you say, like, where does this budget come from? Uh do they just add in the budget or do they have to take it from somewhere else? Chances are it's gonna be taking it from somewhere else. What then gets compromised, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:40

You know, and interesting because like brands, especially you know, fashion brands, spend a lot of money on marketing, ads, all of that. And they change their ads and their marketing. You know, some brands do it every month with like, you know, the content and the visuals, but the site stays the same for like two years. It's like whoa, wait. So you drive all this traffic, but they get the same kind of features and experience and customer journeys every time they go to the site. That to me is like astonishing. Like they should move a bit of that budget into the site because like that's what you know why people would come back. There has to be, you know, some sort of uh you know, new features, new experiences on on the site.

James 45:27

When you say it like that, it sounds so basic. Um, but it's certainly something that's overlooked.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

You know, it's also like you know, brands in their physical stores, they you know, they hang things differently every month because they have a new collection and then they do this like cool display of this new shoe. Um and I think again, represent is a it's a very good example for this, where like they uh we did this like um completely new design, like uh a PDP for a new shoe that they were launching, and this was a custom PDP for this shoe. And that's how you treat products in store, right? You you have this big you know launch of a new product and you do a cool window and you do a cool display in store, but you but then when it when it gets online, it's just you know on a PLP, um like everything else. And I think that's what's cool with Represent that they kind of push that and like we're launching a shoe, and that's gonna be an experience online as well. And I wish more would do that.

James 46:26

Yeah, it's like you said when you say that it sounds so basic and probably not such a big change either, and it's not some that cost a huge amount of money either, but it can have a big impact. And even as a customer, if you go on a website and it's a brand you shop with a lot, yeah, if it the website's always the same, it just becomes a bit of bit of noise, right? Whereas if it if it's changing and interacting with you in a different way, oh cool, that's new. I didn't notice that last time. Oh, what else is new? You have a look, you're intrigued, you stay. So yeah, okay, nice. All right. Just quickly on this note then, do you feel as though the the appetite to invest here, to change, evolve is stronger with some of the the younger brands, like a represent, for example?

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Yeah, I would say so. But then again, like I I I feel like this is like a you know bubbling market uh across everywhere. Of course, like the younger, you know, especially like I I haven't used the word uh D2C in a very long time, but it makes sense here. Like if you if you're launched as as like digital first, you kind of that comes with it. Um, but I mean we do see you know heritage brands kind of, I mean Osprey London, I think is a super good case of this where we redid their site two years ago. Um where you know and they did a whole like repositioning and rebrand and all of that, but where like they are a very obviously like physically driven product, but like how do we translate that to navigation, to guidance, to kind of exploring that product online. So I think we see this across like every both heritage brands with you know, a strong physical present and and you know, younger founder-led brands, so I'd say.

James 48:11

Yeah. All right. I like it. I'm gonna be paying a lot more attention to uh to websites as and when I go on them and seeing what changes come up and everything else. So interesting. Um

Quickfire Advice And Closing

James 48:22

right, let's move on to the quick fire questions before we wrap things up, Marina. That's part of the show that I really enjoy. Just gonna shop a couple of couple of questions at you. Let's try and let's try and keep it quick. Um so I think I probably know the answer to this first one given uh given how we've just ended it. But what is the most underrated investment in e-commerce right now?

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah, it's it's kind of what we just said. I mean, again, I think this is where the opportunity lays. Like if if if you want people to come back, you you kind of need to to to to give them something to come back to, you know, it's that easy. And you know, when I travel or if I go into a you know my favorite brands and their physical stores, you know, sometimes I go just to browse uh because I know there's something new or they they they did something cool with the store. So um but yeah, I think um that's like the most important thing.

James 49:16

Yeah, all right. Nearly quick, kinda quick. Okay. Um what what was uh one thing retailers should stop what's the one thing retailers should stop doing immediately? Put yourself out there.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

You know, maybe a bit like, but you know, I um AI is great, and but I think it's also like it's it's you know, now I'm gonna it's just gonna be a long answer.

James 49:52

No, we'll leave it, we'll pause it, we'll cut it. Uh AI is gonna solve everything. That's a bold dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

But then I do have examples where like, I mean, I I do want to mention like, you know, this new like UCP thing where like you know, AI startups like MFOS is gonna make your life so much easier. Like getting your product data and your whole product catalog like optimized for that, like that's when AI plays a massive role. Or like, you know, there's another startup from Sweden called Diama, where you know you get your data right, you understand your data. So obviously, like AI is gonna help you a lot, but I think it is a bit uh risky to think that it's gonna save the whole thing. Yeah.

James 50:41

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fair, right? I think that's fair. What um if you could describe headless in one phrase, how do you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Now you're pushing me with short answers. No, but I would say brand like brand possibilities.

James 50:54

Maybe that's two words, but that is a super short one. There we go. Brand possibilities. That's made up for all the other long ones, right? And then finally, what's one metric uh retail leaders should should obsess over this year?

SPEAKER_00 51:10

I mean, talking about this whole like brand and investing in design and and everything, and uh I obviously get the question of like, oh, but how do we measure that? How do if if we invest a lot in in design with you guys, how do we measure that? And to me, there's obviously you know conversion rate and they sell more, but uh returning customers. If we you know do this whole like universe and create desire, people are gonna come back.

James 51:36

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

That's that's it.

James 51:38

Returning customers, customer loyalty. I know that's hot high on the agenda of many brands right now, isn't it? Customer loyalty and what have you. So awesome. Well, I think that brings us to a close. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Thank you.

James 51:51

Did you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Yes. I mean, uh, it was good.

James 51:54

But let me just quickly wrap this up by saying thank you to everyone for listening. This was another brilliant episode. Thank you for joining me, Marina. I really enjoyed the conversation and pleased you did as well. Uh, it's great to get a consultative viewpoint on platforms and technology in the market, as well as understanding the importance around evaluating TCO on a regular basis, uh, as well as most importantly, how you're gonna stand out as a brand and potentially turning your budget to uh brand design and UX. So 2026 is gonna be an exciting year, uh, both for the podcasts and for those associated to digital commerce. I'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Thank you.