Today I am discussing Apathy and how to handle it.
In this episode I discuss how:
Show notes and the transcript can be found here: https://michellekevill.com/apathy
Today I am discussing Apathy and how to handle it.
In this episode I discuss how:
Show notes and the transcript can be found here: https://michellekevill.com/apathy
[00:00:00] Hello everyone. I hope you are well. And if not, I tried to do the usual click. I do. There did not happen. And if not, at least you are here. Hello and welcome to today's episode. I'm filming this on a Sunday and it is for the first time in a while, really, sunny. We've had some more floods again here in New South Wales. It is like the first day of another long week of rain and it is just really nice to see the sun and what a perfect time to then talk about apathy, which is the theme of today's episode and something that I've had on the backlog for a while because it is a very weird and interesting emotion and yet a lot of us do experience apathy from time to time. So as always, I want to give you an overview of like what it is, why it occurs, and society's kind of perspective on it. Then I want to give you my view on it and then as always, how to deal with it, etc. because being apathetic, feeling that sense of complete detachment, like you're floating through space aimlessly, kind of like almost like nihilism a little bit. It can get really annoying after a while. And let me tell you, I've recently been in my own business and even in my corporate job, and I want to talk about it and I want to go through it.
[00:01:32] So what is apathy? Look, apathy, it's typically defined as a lack of interest, enthusiasm or any form of concern. But I think the best definition is detachment from the world. Apathy feels like complete emotional and like physical detachment. But I mean, like, the best way to describe it is think of if you're driving through a tunnel and that tunnel is never ending. You just feel as though you're just driving through that tunnel. It's almost like a little bit of mix of like. Just like isolation, not caring and a little bit of boredom in there as well. Is a really weird emotion and I do want to touch on my view just yet, but I will elaborate on that in a second. Now, why does it occur? Look, there is a whole heap of theories and discussions and debates around this. And I don't want to make it really clear that, yes, apathy. It can be a sign of anxiety and depression. And look, as always, disclaimer a seek appropriate medical and professional help or anything in regards to a like form of mental illness. And that is totally fine. I'm just I like what I want to give you is just my specific view and just also how it's been viewed in the perspective of society. And from that as well, they can be like this some research around people who have had a heart attack and like it's a changes in the brain and changes in around apathy.
[00:03:17] And I think especially this is really big view that it is bad, it is it's, you know, to feel apathetic, to absolutely not care to be existing. It is seen to a certain extent as there is something inherently wrong with you. So now I'm going to give you my view kind of addressing each point before I told you a little bit of what apathy feels like, right? Why it occurs. Look, I honestly believe that apathy is a symptom of something much greater. So if we take the emotional diarrhea example that I give you around your emotions and when you're not processing them, it's like diarrhea, but you're holding on to it. Apathy is like the stomach cramp that you get, and you're trying to treat the stomach cramp, not the actual diarrhea itself. So you're taking pain medication. And then on top of that, you're judging it because society is telling you that there is something wrong if you feel apathetic, if you don't care. Firstly, yeah, apathy feels like shit. Okay. I don't know. I enjoy feeling apathetic but judging it, especially in a society capitalist. I'm talking about western capitalistic society where output getting things done on motivation doing things is really valued over, just exist. Kind of that feeling of just existing and not really fully contributing. Of course that is going to be shamed.
[00:04:48] That doesn't help. That just makes me freak out about the apathy that I am feeling. And typically in my experience, what would happen is that I would think it is a sign of something greater, a greater problem that is about to happen. Like I'm about to go through something even worse, like it's all downhill from here versus letting myself accept where I'm at at this point in time and how I am feeling. And I'll get into that in a little bit more. So I also want to give you a little bit of an evolutionary perspective around apathy as well, because it has been like it's been discussed in the literature around it. But here's here's my view. I think apathy kind of goes against that stereotypical view of evolution around how we're always like we're motivated and we're running around for food and, you know, we're trying to like, I'm thinking like like fighting each other and stuff like that. We're not exactly doing that. I think apathy to a certain extent is helpful. If you think about it, if a new person comes into the tribe, right, you are going to be super potentially defensive if you're just going to feel apathetic about it, as in i.e. you don't care too much to an external extent that is okay if you aren't going to care if there are lots of changes happening in your environment and you're always yes, we're to a certain extent we should, you know, talking about back in the day when we're like looking around on planes and, you know, looking out for danger.
[00:06:17] Yeah, you need to be aware of that stuff, but you also need to accept some of that change as well that's happening. That's also going to give you a little bit of a survival kick as well. Not be to like like a good level of apathy that makes sense, like not letting it affect you too much. That's my view on what apathy is. But in society and how we feel now, it is a symptom. There is always, I believe, a root cause to apathy separate from if you have say like for me sometimes I feel apathetic because of hormonal changes. Sometimes it is, yeah, there's some anxiety or depression happening as well, and there's also a whole heap of thoughts underneath all this apathy. So apathy, I believe, is a symptom of something much greater, and I'll put it in a few other examples for you. It can sometimes be a defense mechanism. What I mean by that is you have to have ever been in work, for example, and you've been really, really stressed about something, and then all of a sudden you're like, Fuck it, I don't care. I don't care anymore. Like, this is shit, this is stupid. Why am I doing this? People are acting like this and all of a sudden you don't care.
[00:07:30] Here's a thing I know deep down I still care, but it's almost like I'm trying to force the apathy onto myself and it's kind of like hitting a it's almost like hitting a light stick. It does. It's true. It hits like a late stage of burnout as well. Get to this point where you care so much about something and then you kind of come to the top and then you just drop down and it's like, No, I don't care anymore. This is too much like it is. That's a defense mechanism. That is a way to kind of get you out of something again. Why I also think is really good from an evolutionary do it then it's really good from an evolutionary perspective as well. You care too much about lots of things changing, you know, not having food and stuff like that. Yes, it's going to motivate you, but you can also over care about something. So I do think apathy, having a level of like accepting change, like a mild level of it is like normal and. Okay, but yes, in this in this specific episode, we're talking about that real apathy that is just over the top, right? So for me, apathy is a symptom. There's typically in my clients and myself going through a burnout cycle, there is this point in time, I know people have gone through this where you've been working so hard on something and then all of a sudden it's like you flipped the table.
[00:08:54] You are choosing to and not shaming people. When I say this, like give up, like you were like, I am done with this. And you feel this level of apathy to the work, to the job, to yourself. And then you go into like this weird stage of a little bit of nihilism, like, what's the point? We're just standing on a floating rock in space. There's a pandemic. There are floods and fires like we might not even have a planet in the next couple of years with global warming. So to me, that makes sense 100%. Why are you going to feel completely apathetic when there are lots of things outside of your control that are happening and your brain is like, Fuck, this is a lot. You need to stop. For me, apathy is typically a part of a burnout cycle that I go through or part of. If I've been pushing myself or caring about something so much, it kind of flips a table and the brain's like, numb. You've got to pull out, man, like, I am out of here. I want I want to go into. Is that it is it is normal. And I say this because there is so much fear and shame around apathy, like almost it will consume you and then you just will be so apathetic that you won't even care to like, which obviously can happen.
[00:10:16] And then yes, you seek appropriate medical professional help if you so apathetic you don't even want to eat or something or like take care of your children or something like that. And I think a lot of that is to do with how it's been viewed as in society around what apathy is, what it means, and then you're just attacking yourself with it and you're judging yourself like, Oh, what? Like, No, I should be caring about this, I should be doing this. And yeah, it's not enjoyable, it's not fun. I do not enjoy being apathetic. I do feel very nihilist. It's literally like, what's the. I point I think about it these to an extent, some of the things that I would say to myself are true. I'll give you an example. Like I kind of go into this very negative view and it's like, What is the point? I'm a human standing on a rock floating in space and like, nothing matters to a certain extent. Yeah, nothing matters. Like, we have no idea why humans are on the planet. Like, yes, there's a whole heap of religious texts as to why I think our job as humans is to find our own meaning in life. Thinking all of that stuff, though, putting it in such a negative frame of reference is not going to help me, and it's not going to help the thing that I am stressing over.
[00:11:33] It's not going to help that project at work that you are just so over. It's not going to help you process any of the emotion that's and any of the thoughts that are truly underlying apathy. And the fact is, we have been trained, I believe, to be apathetic. And in society it's really hard to see that apathy. We have so much more access to news, especially negative news. Like instantaneously that is happening all over the world. Like, I don't think people realize the influx of information that we have compared to, say, when we were living in caves. And, you know, we could see the people in our tribe and the outside area. And they were the types of threats we can see. Now, we are actually in flooded with so many more potential threats. There are wars happening. There are like there are floods, there are fires, there is a pandemic. It almost feels a know global warming. It kind of can feel a little bit I'm telling you what I've been going through a little bit like a whole end of the world kind of thing going on. That, of course, is going to produce a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear, and then eventually a lot of apathy. Because if you are constantly shown something over time, there's only so much your brain can take until it's like, I have no control over this and I need to kind of distance myself, especially when it's not a direct threat to you.
[00:13:11] I know global warming is a direct threat to me. I know that. I genuinely know that. Right. But if I know if I took that on, oh, my God. Like my brain is like, look, what are my immediate threats? My immediate threats are like anything to do with my family, my work, like, anything to do directly with me. I know that sounds selfish, but again, humans are self preserving, right? Global warming at the moment doesn't mean I don't care about it, but my brain is much more apathetic to the information I receive that it's almost like I've got too much. It's like I have enough to stress about right now. We can add that to the list later on. And it's interesting because when I see all these things together with everything that's been happening, you know, pandemic fire, floods, etc., then my brain, if it starts to believe it's more of a direct threat to me, then it starts to be like, Oh my God. And in society we're really shit at seeing the why the apathy is occurring. I'll tell you why. There is a perfect book called The Problem That Had No Name by Betty Friedman, and it is amazing because it's just elaborated on all the frustrations that 1950s and 1960s housewives were going through at the time.
[00:14:31] And it's called the Problem That Had No Name because, again, people like women were coming up to psychologists and like people feeling frustrated, feeling unhappy and living in a white Western male dominated society. Men were like, What? What's not going on here? Like what? Everything's fine. Like you've got a happy house. This is fine. Like, you know, your husband doesn't hate you. Like, everything's fine right now. And people were really confused and it was just elaborated from a really feminist perspective that, hey, actually women are treated like fucking shit, like second class citizens right now. They have no choice. Like, I couldn't even like basic things that I take for granted, like not being able to open up a bank account without, like, my husband's permission. I'm like, Oh my God, so many basic necessities again. Remember, at that time, it's a very male dominated society and it's men perfectly and men are typically writing the books and all the papers as well. It's like, What do you mean? Nothing's going on? And I feel as a society it's challenging for us to see, look at ourselves from the outside, if that makes sense. And I think when there is an increase in apathy, when people are like, Well, what's going on? I take a step out, I try to take a step out and I'm like, Okay, what's happening right now? We have a ton.
[00:16:07] Like, again, we have more access to information. We have so much more negative news. We have like at least in Australia, we have an election coming up. We have a housing crisis. We have interest rates going up again. You can yeah, you can say that I'm focusing on the negative, whatever. There are lots of, you could say, threats out there or things that people can interpret as threats. And yeah, people are going to develop a to an extent, a level of apathy, and that's going to seep into your every day. For me, I don't know. And everyone's different. By the way, remember your what you believe is a direct threat to you. Your brain is going to interpret that and it's honestly different for everyone. It's like for me with global warming, I know it exists. I know it is a big, massive problem. And I also know that my brain is freaking out about way more, many more other things like interest rates potentially rising, my businesses, my corporate job, my family. Again, it's not that I necessarily don't care. It's almost like my brain just does not have capacity to be freaking out about it. But that's different and unique for everyone and it is dependent on their thoughts. So you've heard my spiel about apathy and again I want to talk about it because I hear my clients coming to me with this.
[00:17:33] And again, one, it's normal, it's okay. And two, it is, I believe, always a symptom of something greater. There is always a source to the apathy, and if you want to tackle it, you need to understand why. You need to know what are the thoughts supporting this. So and I'm going to go use me as an example. I have been feeling very apathetic about my business for at least over a month and I have started with a new I have my own new coach and we're focusing on business and marketing and I have just felt really disengaged from my business and is a trick apathy will make you feel as though there's it's like you if that makes sense. Like there's no thought behind it. You're just feeling apathetic for the sake of apathy. And I know that wasn't true. I know there was something behind that. So of course I did a thought download and guys, this is really important. Writing your thoughts out and asking yourself why I probably go on about it every single fucking episode. It's so crucial because I didn't do this for a month. I know it sounds crazy. I'm a life coach. I didn't tackle this specific thing because I assumed it wasn't a problem, and I'll get to that in a second as to why, but I just tackled it now and I'm going to go through it with you.
[00:18:55] So it started off with because this is what's been happening at a surface level, right? Like I hate everything, it sucks. And then it goes into stuff like not working. I'm just failing through life, which I know isn't true. I'm just existing on this floating ball. No one is seeing me. I'm nothing. It's not working. And then I'm like, Oh, it's not working. Like, I thought, I just didn't care about anything. Let's go into that. Well, it's too much like, what's the point? It feels really uncomfortable and no one cares. I'm like, Oh, let's go into that a little bit more. What I realized was a couple of things. There's there's a belief that like, No. One, I'm putting this content out and no. One case. I know that's not true, but there's a thought and that's okay. So I look at that, it feels uncomfortable. That's another thought. And then the big kicker is I need to change the world and I'm not seeing any evidence. And I was like, Oh, this makes sense. Now I am putting all this pressure on myself. I'm setting a very high expectation and I'm not meeting it. And I feel like or I'm seeing evidence that I'm failing, therefore my brain is now almost like, Oh, well, if I'm never going to make me happy, then what's the fucking point? Like, it's kind of like, again, it's like I flip the table and then it turns into apathy.
[00:20:22] It's like a defense mechanism. I also wasn't recognizing that for at least a month I had been in probably a little bit of a fight or flight mode. I have become become I've talked about this before a little bit more visible. And I started freaking out, really scared about it. I was growing and I don't think I let myself recover enough from it. I think that's where this thought of like, I don't want to be uncomfortable. My brain is like, I don't want to go through all that stress again. I don't want to touch this. Don't do that. And it's like, Oh, this makes sense. And it's like, Well, what if it's supposed to feel weird? Which weirdly makes me feel so calm? Like I'm allowing myself to feel weird because uncomfortable ness feels weird to me. I know that's a feeling on a feeling here, but yes, it's not fun. It's it's not enjoyable. And I didn't want to go through it and I haven't appreciated that. I was like probably stressed out for a month and then now my brain's a little bit yet apathetic because it went through some a lot of fucking shit. Do you see what I mean? The apathy is always coming from somewhere. And I hadn't really recognized that this. This had been building up for at least a month and a half.
[00:21:30] I hadn't really noticed it. I noticed other things that were popping up, but not this not this really deep underlying thought that has started to kind of foster and gain momentum around, you know, placing a really high expectation about myself and the uncomfortableness. And it's like, okay, I hear you, I hear you, brain. I felt so much more. And again, it's always going to be super instant. I just felt a lot more motivated to even do today's episode, to do like my upcoming posts, which sometimes I find uncomfortable to do. I'm using more like sales and marketing techniques in my posts, and it's uncomfortable because it's a new skill. And if it's uncomfortable, that means something's gone wrong, right? No. What if uncomfortableness is perfect because it just leads to growth and that's allowed and we're going to lean into it. So feel so much more karma. When that happens, it's like, Oh, och. And then the, the business, it's like, Oh, it's becoming fun again. It's not anything that's necessarily hard or that I have to push myself around. It's because that is where the apathy was coming from. And I know for like all of you listening have experienced this, it doesn't have to be with a business. It could be something with work where there is that level of frustration and apathy. And I really encourage you to just write out your thoughts about it and ask yourself why? Because this con me the fuck down and like I did this in like 20, 30 minutes and I'm so much calmer now and I have the thoughts and the models and I'm going to practice them and I'm going to enact them.
[00:23:10] And that's going to, you know, keep me going and keep me helping people. Oh, I'm also that other thought where I thought I have to change the world. And I didn't even realize that it was actually inadvertently pressuring me. Now I'm just telling myself I just have to help one person today, and I've already been doing that. But just today, one person is all I have to help. And, and it's okay if I don't know about it. I just have to help one person. That's it. That's my job. Calms me the fuck down. Takes me so much stress off me. And I'm like, Yep, let's do it. Let's post more. You know, I have been a little bit quiet on my stories. My, my email is very dead at the moment and it's like, Yep, that's right. We're going to get into it. We're going to do this. So yeah. I hope you have enjoyed this episode. I hope it has taught you a little bit about apathy and as always, feel your feelings. And I will see you next week by.