Unlocking the Liking Gap: How to Build Authentic Friendships in the Workplace

In today's episode, we have a special guest Jewel Holman a connection coach where we discuss the importance of building connections and friendships in the workplace.

In this episode we cover: strategies for building deeper connections in the workplace,  overcoming the fear of reaching out to others, increasing vulnerability in a safe and manageable way,  identifying the source of insecurities and of course the importance of being friends with yourself.
Show notes and the transcript can be found here: https://michellekevill.com/podcast

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Transcript

Michelle Kevill  00:00

Hello, everyone, I hope you're well. And if not, I got you at least you are here. My name is Michelle and I help high achieving corporate women feel passionate about their job again. And today I have a very special guest, Jewel Holman I connection Coach, welcome Jewel.

Jewel Holman  00:15

So happy to be here and you nailed my last name. So happy. So good. So good.

Michelle Kevill  00:23

So tell us tell us a little bit about yourself who you help what you do.

Jewel Holman  00:28

Yes, um, so I say my brain bass connection coach. So what I do is I help people feel more emotionally safe in their relationships, and feel more secure in their relationships, particularly their friendships, there are so many beautiful, amazing resources out there for like romantic relationships. There's not as many for family, especially not really many at all for friendships. And so if people are familiar with attachment styles, I always like to say I help people identify with more of a secure one and start showing up to their relationships that way. So if you want to make friends, if you want to feel more comfortable in social spaces, if you want to feel more safe, that's that's all the work I do.

Michelle Kevill  01:17

Oh my god, that is that is so amazing. So like, tell us a little about a little bit about that, especially around like attachment styles, and like, you know, some of the social anxiety, you know, belonging and don't really like feeling like we can fit in, especially with I hear this all the time. Like it's hard as an adult to make friends.

01:34

Yes, yes, I know. That's the first thing whenever I say what I do, they're like, oh, but it's so hard as an adult. Um, what I want to offer, this really applies, you know, to your people, too. But what I want to offer is actually super easy. Friendship is not a mystery, by any means there's actually a science to it. And it's so simple. It's just three things. And if we apply these three things, we can create deeper relationships. Most of the time when somebody is lonely, it's not because they don't know what if people don't have enough friends, it's because they don't have the depth that they want. And so there is a science to creating that depth. The only thing that gets in the way of that science is the meat and electricity and cetera. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so like with attachment, styles, um, oh, my gosh, I have her name right up here. But Marisa Franco. So she just studied this and came up with a great book called platonic that's on this. If somebody really is a nerd, like myself, and likes to dive into that, but she really describes that attachment styles are how you predict your relationships to be so anxious attachments are like, Oh, I predict that you're gonna leave me fearful avoidant attachments are I predict you're going to betray me or hurt me and secure is like, I predict as we get closer, that we're gonna have a great, lovely fulfilling relationship, or we're going to support each other, right? So yeah, that's kind of that in a nutshell.

Michelle Kevill  03:13

I got it. I love that and how I guess, how does this apply then to like creating friendships in the workplace? And so I think we were talking about this before, there is a whole like, I have heard this before, it's like, you know, you gotta show up professionally, your work, friends? Aren't your true friends? Like, how can you build those, I guess, the same strong bonds with your colleagues and people in that kind of workplace setting.

03:37

Right, yeah, and work place. Friends, it really is such an advantage. Because the reason why friendship feels harder as an adult is because we had consistency growing up, where we saw these people every day, where we were with them all day long. And so we saw each other in different environments, in different subjects, you know, and, and so on. So it really created these deep bonds with people we went to school with. And workplace, same thing, you're seeing these people, especially if you're going into the office, like I know, we got a whole hybrid remote situation going on. But especially if you're going into like the office, or wherever you work, you're seeing these people all the time, so they're gonna see you in stressful situations, and in more relaxed situations, and, and so on. So it really is so sad. But I think when people, you know, get in their way, and they're like, Oh, I can't make friends here, or these aren't my true friends, right? Or I gotta be professional. There's so many ways I could dive into that. But one, I want to start by saying have a connection in your workplace. There's a lot of data around this but it actually helps your productivity your co workers productivity, It helps like retention, which of course, if you enjoy going to work with work, like, course, you're gonna want to stay there do that. There's less people moving around unless like training people and so on. There are so many benefits to feeling connected and emotionally safe and having friends in the workplace. And so that's one thing. I want to start by saying the other thing is, you mentioned like, Oh, I gotta be professional. Right? And I think, yeah, I hear that. Right. We make that mean, a bunch of certain.

Michelle Kevill  05:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just make it mean, like, because because even like, I've heard this before, I've done it previously, as well. It's like, you, oh, it's that whole? Like, what is it like work versus personal life? Like, you can't get too involved, like, the two worlds can't kind of meet. And there's a lot of people have a lot of thoughts about that, like, you know, like freaking out, you know, I go to a work party and have too much me, etc. And I think it just causes a lot of underlying tension in the back of your head, you're sitting there questioning, you know, is this person really my friend? Or is this person just trying to suck up to me? Because, you know, they want that thing or that roll or something like that?

06:17

Yeah, so true. Yeah. That, yeah, a whole nother layer of like, do they want something for me? That makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. But yeah, I think a lot of times, um, I mean, you had leave, I don't know if you want to share it now. But you have a great story you were telling me about and I could just see it in the background of your painting. I believe it's a painting but your artwork? Yes, Mario? Yeah, yes. Yes,

Michelle Kevill  06:43

that's right. So for anyone listening, like, who's listening to this, I have a little display, it's cool to display it. And it's got a little Mario and it says Be the best version of yourself. And there's a bigger Mario and a smaller Mario, you play the video, that you take a mushroom and you'd like one up and stuff like that, hence, the saying that so yeah, my little story is really, really early in my career. So as you know, I'm a math nerd. And I love video games. And I did mention it once. And I got cut down. I was just like, tell it, are you a child? And it was like, Oh, just gonna keep that to myself. And then I realized, like, uh, like, once I found some other people and just, you know, you know, just got into myself, like, kind of just grow grow up, I guess. I realized that, that I couldn't give a shit. Think I'm a child, I don't care anymore. And just just found my own people that really loved video games as well. And, you know, like, if someone's gonna think that about me, okay, good for you. Control. It doesn't have to make have to make that mean anything about me? Does that make me less professional or less good at my job just makes me me.

07:49

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so I think like, when it comes to things like that, you know, I'm, for you. I mean, if you're open to sharing, like after that person said that to you, like, what did you make it mean, after that? It was like, Oh, I can't share

Michelle Kevill  08:06

that. Yes, you have to, like hide, myself will hide this part of me. Because it's not acceptable in the workplace. Like you see this all the time, right? Whatever a noob. Like, this is what I felt used to happen a lot. It's, I feel like it's a little bit different now. And maybe it's probably just my thoughts. But a new person will come in, they send out the standard email. And it will always be something like, and the favorite hobbies I like to do would be like, running like everyone I knew at work. We're into marathons and outside stuff. And I am the complete opposite of that. And I just felt that that was the only thing that was acceptable, just like that type of stuff. And that I couldn't just be who I was, or just show up with that kind of piece of information. And I just had to hide that part of myself.

08:51

Yeah, so interesting. I mean, they're running. I haven't worked in a corporate, like, setting. I mean, I hardly did so like, That makes so much sense to me. I get like, you're talking about, um, but with that now to like, like you said it? Don't you feel like it doesn't make you less professional. So I'd love to know, like, what are your thoughts on that now? And like when you tell people that now because I'm assuming you tell them at the workplace, you know?

Michelle Kevill  09:20

Oh, yeah. It's like the first thing I say now, it's like my interesting little fact for me. I think what had happened? Well, one, I think this is before thought work, right? So before that actually found a lot of people like because I ended up going into the analytical route. And a lot of data analysts are also massive nerds like me, liking video games, and we're all just like nerding out and bonding over video games. So I guess what I was able to believe is that it is okay. It's safe. And there are other people like you hear you just need to find them. There's just a new there's just a mix of everyone. And I felt like as well the culture has changed since like the you know, like when I stopped added like probably like 1011 years ago, it really has changed to just be like, you know, plus video gaming is actually also more common now. But I guess a lot of the thoughts I was having was like, yeah, actually, this is this is allowed these people also seeing other people who were like, super senior into the same video games I am in, and just talking about it and nerding out about it and being like, Oh, wait, it's almost like, we can show up as us and other people are just gonna have their own views and opinions on everything. Because we're all multifaceted. And yes, at work, I think the challenge is we like to think and I've also termed this but for summary, we assume that everyone else like most of society, we we know it intellectually, that they don't we know that these are like, left, right, whatever. We do think, and it'll add a certain level that most people, I would say, think like us, or have the same likes as us. And I think when you go to work in middle, these are the people that just proves that, like, it's just a whole multitude of people here, and they're all just different. And that's okay. We don't have to make it mean anything about ourselves, even if it is super senior person at being like, Oh, you're, I don't know, don't you know, like, you know, like this thing or whatever, and they don't 100% agree with it. It's just now it's just, I think, as well, I just believe that I am. Oh, that's another thing. That's the other piece of work that I've been doing. I am just, I believe I'm good at my job. It's like, all stuff you I'm not gonna let your opinion change that I have all my thoughts and all my evidence to show that I am good at my job.

11:39

Yeah, I mean, like, there you have it, y'all like believing like, that you were good at your job. Right? It's gonna be so much easier to brush that off, if you have that belief about yourself. So, so true. Um, I think another layer of this is, there's like a little bit of all or nothing thinking, where it's like, I either show up as I am. And maybe sometimes I at least in my noggin, I'm thinking to people in my life, that are in the corporate world. There. It's either like, oh, I show up completely as I am. But then, you know, maybe who I am like, I am. Me personally, I grew up in a household where like, swear words were every other word. So I swear a lot.

Michelle Kevill  12:34

Me and welcome to the fuck it works perfectly.

12:42

For Yeah, so like, maybe if they're like, What I you know, cuss a bunch. Or, you know, maybe I have like a slightly like flirty, cheeky dirty sense of humor. Like, I can't bring that to the workplace. Right? So it's very, like all or nothing like, I'm either professional, or I'm not. Um, and yeah, I guess kind of all or nothing thinking as far as that goes. And what I want to offer is that, and this is true for whatever environment you're in for, whether it's work, and even different environments at work, whether you're doing a meeting, or whether you're just like having lunch with your coworkers. But whether it's work, or if you belong to a church group, or if you're in front of your grandma, or if your friend, your best friend that has, you know, like knows all the things about you from your partner, you are turning, I like to think of it as you have. I don't want to say a switchboard. I don't know if that's the right term. But yeah, like a board have all these knobs in front of you. And you're turning up and turning down certain parts of yourself. We do that anyway. Right? It doesn't mean it's not you, when you're going to work and you're turning of that knob of you know, like certainty, right? You're turning up like, I know what I'm doing here, or you're turning up that knob of focus, or you're turning up that knob of like, I take myself seriously, right? Um, so I want to start by saying that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. And then I like to think to like, when you are going to these different environments, like just like ask yourself so many of us just don't ask ourselves these questions, but just what is it that I don't want them to know about me? Like what is truly in my mind? Like unprofessional? And what else do I want to own about myself? Right like owning video games at work, right like that. That's who you are. That's you owning who you are. Doesn't mean you're you're going in you're like, you know, like, sharing your sex life with your boss. Raisa all or nothing like that. No. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Michelle Kevill  14:50

Yeah, yeah. No, and I hear what you're saying as well because and I think, want to also challenge what some people may bring up as well doesn't like Oh, but it's, I'm not showing up is who I truly am. I'm like, well, that's like saying, If you truly love to, I'm just making this up, like, run around all the time. Like, I don't know, maybe not doing good metaphor here. Just say it's really like to just dance or something like that. Like, you're not necessarily going to dancing in corporate, if it's coming out wrong here. We do it like what exactly what you're saying with the knobs on the switchboard, we do this already, to a certain extent, like, I'm not gonna go swearing like crazy in front of like, my grandma, because she is, you know, very thick, Maltese, strict Catholic cetera. But yeah, I'm probably gonna swear around my friends and stuff like that. But I like that. It's just the not, it's not dulling who you are, it's just changing a little bit. Or even changing. I don't even think it's changing. It's just, ah, here's a better metaphor, you wouldn't dance at a funeral?

16:04

Yes.

Michelle Kevill  16:06

Yes, there, it just hit me, then you would not dance at a funeral, you would just kind of be respectful of the setting. And same with corporate. So I can still talk about video games and maybe not going to scream to everyone that I liked video games, like it's just like exactly that. It's just little things like that doesn't mean you don't have to be who you are, necessarily be who you are, or like your your energy, etc. But like you said, there's just the, the setting and changing it. And I like what you said, when you said we're already doing it already. Because it's true. That's the thing. So I have heard this before from my other friends like I should I have to like, change myself. It's like, I don't think you have to change yourself. And again, you can do what you want. I do feel to a certain extent we already doing it. And when we're feeling really nervous about ourselves, I feel like what we're doing is we're trying to just rip the dial off or, like, we're like, I just don't want it to exist and be there. Which doesn't help either.

17:05

Absolutely, absolutely. And, yeah, I think to like, I would ask yourself, like, what knobs? If you would like, what do you want to turn up? At work? If you will? It's kind of a funny way to say that. But like, what things about you? Do you want to turn up? What things haven't you shared yet? Right? And like, give yourself that space to question it. In general. Um, and it might feel a little vulnerable. Like, I'm sure the first time you told somebody that like, Oh, I really, like enjoy video games after that felt a little vulnerable at first. But when you practice like owning, you know, yourself and I, what I mean by owning is like, thinking about, on some level for you to share. I just love this example so much, but for you to share, like, Oh, I really enjoy video games, you had to feel some level of like ownership behind that, like, Yeah, this is who I am. This is what I like. And I like this right about me. So I really encourage your people to ask, like, what knobs do you want to turn up? And what do you like about you? That, you know, you're open to sharing at work again, that might be some things and not other things. But I think it's just important to ask yourself this, those questions.

Michelle Kevill  18:24

Yeah, and I hear what you're saying as well around, just actually go into a little bit more around like owning it. Because I think for me how I did it. For me, it just came to a point where I just said to myself, like, this is your fucking passion. Like you do this on the weekends. So we really want to be lying. I didn't want to keep lying and being like, oh, like, I hate. I hate cooking. I don't cook. I don't like it. I'm not very good. And everyone talked about, like, how they would bake stuff. And I'm like, I like eating. So I just didn't want to lie about like, what when people asked me what I did on the weekend, it's like, I spent my whole weekend literally playing one game and it was great. And I really enjoyed it. And like I just decided is that how I just wanted to keep living, like lying to fit this, what in my mind felt like a very fake mold for me about like, I like to run and I like to bake and whatever. Like, it's that and I kinda I don't know how to explain it. But in my body, it was like, you gotta own this, like, this is you. You can go into that a little bit more, because that can be challenging for people to understand. Even for me when I was going through like a hit me it was like, oh, no, I this is me. We're not ignoring the child anymore. This is my child.

19:42

Yeah, this is me. And I think that's a good way of asking yourself that question like What is you? You know, I don't know if you're driving. I like to listen to podcasts while I'm driving, so that you could pause and just be like, what is is me and just ask yourself that. I think that's is a great way to see what would come up. As far as owning it goes. So, I'm, I work on this a lot with my my people, because one thing that, especially as you are like, going deeper with certain people, certain parts of you come up, right people start to see more you and are a lot of us our brains are to freak out for a lot of people like meeting people's fine. And then the deepening is the hard part. And so how I help somebody own something is I, as something comes up that they feel like, oh, I don't want this person to know this. Or you can just ask yourself, like, what are all the things that like, I feel like slightly embarrassed about or shame about or like, wish they didn't do, which not a fun exercise by any means. Um, what I help people do a lot of times is we will literally like write them all out. And we will go through and we will just make peace with each of them. And that's going to help you in the way that you talk to yourself. Anyway. So what I mean by making peace is I tried to find an example. So one of my clients. So there's this French word, and I don't know if it's a swear word in French, so if it is I'm sorry.

Michelle Kevill  21:23

But um, it's wastewater, hey, don't worry.

21:32

Um, but there's this word, that and I'm probably gonna say wrong, but it's germane. And one of my clients was telling me, she was like, I, you know, got called this word. And the person that said it to me was like, joking. But I wrote up all of this, like shaming me. Because to her, that word meant like, oh, I have like, too strong of opinions. And I'm too like, direct and, you know, as being socialized as a woman, we can't be those things, right? So for her, like, this thing came up, and she had a lot of shame and embarrassment around it. So how we made peace with that? is we've really looked at, okay, well, why does it benefit you to do those things? Right To Be direct to you know what I mean? I forgot exactly what I just said, Geez, my brains going so fast. But I'm like to be really direct. Like, why does it benefit you? Why? Why would you like that about yourself, and you don't have to go to loving it and being obsessed with it. Like, for me, I can be a little bit more defensive. And I don't love that about myself. It's not my favorite thing in the world. But I'm okay with it. I know why I am like I can, why that button can be triggered for me like to be defensive. I know that about myself. I see how it benefits me. And so it's so much easier for me to own it. And honestly, it's made me a lot less defensive. I'm in situation so that's what I kind of mean by owning it's just making a little bit more peace with it for yourself. You don't gotta go to airy fairy land and like, love everything about it. But just make it a little bit more okay with you.

Michelle Kevill  23:18

Yeah, it's almost like, sounds so cheesy. It's like being best friends with you. Because really, if you all like if these things that triggers you, because I like it's interesting. Like if someone said to me, I don't like your floral dresses. So our little floral dresses, like at work. I just be like, Cool. Bye, like, whatever. But if someone said something like maybe Oh, you too. And I have heard this my whole my whole life which is like you can be a little a little bubbly a little expressive and stuff like that. That can at times be triggering for me because of just all the crap that I've gone through and heard and messages I've received around a house who show up at work and you know, not to you know, can't be too bubbly. Like you're a woman and stuff like that. And I realized it's like, is that just me reflecting society and not liking that about myself? And that's really what it was. I was like, oh shit, like, deep down there. Part of me. doesn't accept this. Like, it's almost going no, this isn't good in society, and you've just been reminded about it. So I was like, okay, that's just the work for me to do there should just because like, I genuinely do like it like, suppose what you said like there are things that I really love about it. And you know that it's okay if other people because that's the thing. And it's again, not to excuse I'm not talking about extreme circumstances, like harassment or workplace bullying. But at the end of the day, people are going to have thoughts and opinions on you. We're all different bunch of humans. I say this all the time. We all talk to like a colleague and about this colleague that we don't like and that person loves them. And that is because we are like meats like you said, like I think you said I say meat sack sled. Meat sacks. We're all different meat sacks walking around and skin suits with like different brain chemistry and different thoughts. We're all interacting with each other with a whole heap of different life experiences, which means we like and don't like certain things if people like when I see it like that, I just have so much less drama and more empathy to just be like, You know what, I was probably that could have been triggering someone else's thing. Like, I say this all the time as well, when other people like I've had a client who has been like us person said this to me, blah, blah, I'm like, could you ever think that? They could, we don't know. They could just be jealous that you're able to show up like this. We have no idea. And even if it wasn't true, if you feel better thinking that doesn't matter, and doesn't get you to show more empathy, which in turn, probably leads to just, you know, more neutral relationship less drama in your brain.

25:56

Yeah, yeah. So good. So good. And okay, so there's so many things I want to say about that. But that question that you just offered, it cannot be understated of like, Is this, like, a societal thing? Or do I not like this? Right. So that client when I was coaching her on that word, Germaine, we ended up so asking her the same question. I was like, where, where do you think this like comes from? And we ended up and she the second she said that she was like, oh, but she was like, I mean, the word kind of came around, around like the 1950s. And my grandpa says it all the time. And I was like, interesting, like, like the 1950s 1960s 1960s. I think we're when women were like, starting to break hold of that, like housewife, dinner's ready for the husband, when he comes home, like, kind of situation, right? Like they were breaking out of that. And so it's like, it makes so much sense that that's what your grandpa says all the time. And that's how he says it in that light. So and we kind of reframed it that that way, too. She was like, there are parts of this that I like, and I can like, be like, hell yeah, like, that's what a Germain is. And there's parts of this that I don't that I have, like okayness with, right. I'm so beautiful. And there's a couple more things I want to offer with that, too. So, one, I always like to tell my clients that everybody is wearing glasses, everybody's wearing foggy glasses. Yes. Baggy glasses. And it's full of like our past, like, bullshit. Yeah. It's full of our insecurities. It's full of, you know, like, even like the things we're working on now. Like, are all of our glasses are covered. And so if somebody doesn't like that you play video games doesn't like a bubble you are doesn't appreciate that you are defensive ends stick up for yourself, then that's something in their glasses, I got a little Smashley. Like, really. So that's another thing I want to say is like, if you really find yourself in a moment where you are taking something like that, personally, really, really question what's going on for them? What's going on? Because it's immediately going to take the focus off of you, and not make it mean something about you and then be like, oh, yeah, like this person. It's them in their fogging glasses. And then the last thing I want to say about this, because I just, I think this is so important. Oh my gosh,

Michelle Kevill  28:39

I love it. I love the energy.

28:42

Um, but there's actually something called a liking gap. And that is when we meet people, we assume. Especially if somebody has like a little bit more of like an ambiguous expression. We assume that they like us less than they actually do. It's science. You're like, it's been researched, it's been confirmed that there is a liking gap where people like us more than we think they do. So I just want everyone to like leave here and to have that belief people like you more than you think they do. It's literally just been proven so interesting.

Michelle Kevill  29:23

Do you know do we know why that is? Like a protection thing for us to make sure that like, you know, that oh my god, like what if they leave you or something like that?

29:33

Yes, no, absolutely. So just like you go into a new environment. Like I like to kind of compare this to moving. When I moved. I moved at the time out of like the place that I grew up growing up and so I moved I got up in the middle of night to the restroom, and I hit a wall on my way because I was so used to my brain was so like my internal map. I was so used to my old house And then when I moved, it felt like a little overstimulating, if you will, like, like, there was so many decisions also about where to put things and so on. But also, the place was just unfamiliar to me. So our brain just takes a second as well, to get familiar with where we are. Like, if you got a new, like, wherever y'all started at your at your job, right? It took you a second to mindlessly know where to go to the bathroom and not have to think about it. Right, like to know, cash or things like that. And so when we are around new people, it's kind of like the same thing. They're not familiar to us. Um, so there's some of that going on, where we're we are just like unfamiliar and so we're not as like, safe as we normally are with people that we're super familiar with. So there's part of that. But there's also like, if we were around people, like if we were around our tribe, if you will. We felt super safe with them, right? We know that they have our backs, but if we were like, migrated, and we're around different tribes, we don't know if those people are gonna steal from us we don't have. So um, it really is like a primitive protection thing for sure. But it's important to remember people like you damn it more than you think.

Michelle Kevill  31:23

That science has proved it. I like that. That is that is that is really, really nice. So like, what I guess what key tips, like key things would you want, like our listeners to know, especially if they are, say, starting a new job and working to build friendships, or even just struggling to just build some connection without dealing with these thoughts around like, like it popping up in the back of head? Like, don't get too personal? Because it's professional? Stuff like that?

31:52

Yeah. Um, so I mean, I think, I mean, I love what we talked about today, I think all of those like great questions are really going to help you feel more comfortable. Again, it cannot be understated having connections at work. Benefits you, personally, so much. Connection is an upward spiral. When we feel connected, we have higher like, energy levels, our body literally reacts to stress differently. So, in work, so many of us spend so much of our lives there, like connection is so important to have in the workplace. It's important for you, it's important for the overall, like health and wellness and success of where you're working. But also, it's a gift to other people, we are so afraid of bothering our friendship, right. And in a world where most of us are fucking lonely, lonely, we are lonelier than ever before. It is such a gift to offer somebody connection with you. So I want to start by saying those things for sure.

Michelle Kevill  33:05

I love that too. Like, it's a gift to view it that way. Like your friendship in the workplace is god damn gift. It's great. And it's fantastic. And it is benefiting the productivity because race is going up because of your, your friendship. I also want to add to that too, and also explore if anyone is genuinely having these thoughts like, what are you afraid will happen? Like if the we'll look at the worst case scenario, but keep going with it? because not enough people do that. It's like some people like, Oh, I'll get fired. Okay, go with that, then, well, then what will happen? Like keep going because your brain gives you fired isn't like the worst case scenario. And it's like actually, one we know from science that we have, like a ever negativity bias. But even if that did happen, you very likely would be able to get yourself out of that, like you'd find a new job, you'd have to I don't know, stay with the parents. But like all you have all these other fail safes that your brain doesn't give you, your brain gives you death at using your job. And it's like actually, if we're literal here, you got a couple of steps to get to like actually wait way more steps before you ever get to that point of what your brain is making it out to be like you like die. So explore that because again, like you were just saying, like, we're going to, we're going you know, nine to five at these places you want to make an enjoyable you want to build that connection. I love the metaphor that you're giving with the dials. I think that is absolutely fantastic. And yeah, why wouldn't you want to enjoy not just other people but yourself as well because I think a lot of this comes down to like what I'm seeing is a little bit of you being friends with yourself and realizing because for me I just didn't feel you know, I'd been had my own past stuff happen. And then it would brought me back to when I was a kid and people used to pick on me You're something like that. And I was like, Oh, wait, I don't appreciate this part of myself, but I like it. So how do I earn it? So be like, really in a cheesy way, being friends with yourself?

35:10

Yes, yeah. It's cheesy, but it's true.

Michelle Kevill  35:14

Yeah. So is the I think I think you've already touched on this too. But is before before we go and wrap up, like, is there one key piece of advice? Like someone listening right now? Like they've I don't know, just skipped over to the end? Like, what would you give them?

35:27

Yes. So I would give them um, because we talked a lot about the thought work behind this, the being comfortable with yourself. And that is so huge. And I'm so glad that we talked so much about that, because that is so, so important that what I'm about to say is a lot harder if you do not have that. In those those abilities, those skills to manage your emotions, manage your mind, embrace yourself, be friends with yourself. But what I would say, is, we one way if you want to make connections and friends, and you feel like it's okay to do so, at work, right, so many of us think that friendship just happens or it doesn't. And that is such bullshit. Like I said, friendship is actually really easy. And it involves three things, and one of them you're already getting by showing up consistently at work. So three things that every friendship has, is consistency, which is frequency, so seeing them every day, but also history. So that's why like the best friend you've had since second grade, you can go for months without speaking to her and still feel really close to her. Because yeah, so it's like time invested, consistency and vote check, done already have that at work, right. The second thing is feel good moments. And this doesn't mean like super cheery, bubbly moments, it also means moments where you feel witnessed, it feels moment, it's moments when you feel supported, things like that. So fostering those really meaningful moments with your co workers. And those, if you were around each other consistently from like you said, nine to five you're gonna have. So almost like another check done. So what I would say, my biggest piece of advice for somebody, and I promise you, if you do this, you will create friendships at work deep friendships. And you're welcome. So

Michelle Kevill  37:42

love it. Um,

37:44

so the other thing is to increase vulnerability. Now, so many of us hear that, and we think like, gosh, like bear my whole life story. Vulnerability is so much like bigger than that vulnerability is also being willing to share, like an own. That's why our conversation earlier, so important to own parts about yourself. Vulnerability is just allowing somebody to see a little bit more of you. So when you get into a car with somebody, if you've never driven anywhere together, that's vulnerability, they're seeing you in your car. If you have a co worker that you normally see at the office, and you have them over for dinner, that's vulnerability, like they're seeing your house if you share more about yourself. So one thing that I would offer is for you to share one thing about yourself and learn one thing, and it again, doesn't have to be huge. We'll build up to that we gradual, incremental vulnerability,

Michelle Kevill  38:49

yeah, little baby steps, I like to call it Yeah, that's what

38:53

feel safe is to our nervous system anyway to write. So I'm for everybody. So learning one thing, sharing one thing, and then if you work now, I'm assuming that you know, like a lot of people work with, like similar teams. So do that with your team and your people. But also, I love to tell my people all of the time because so many of us are just trying to be really close with everybody. And if you are trying to be friends with everybody, you're going to feel close to nobody, no brain can handle all of those relationships. Nobody can with their time manage all of these super like you can't manage like 20 Deep best friendships you just can't. So um, I would also offer for people to prioritize like, if you work at like a pretty large company, and so on like prioritize like people that you know, you admire that you enjoy talking to already. And make like and make it super simple like between three to five, I would really encourage no more than five. And it might sound mean it doesn't mean you like people more than others. But if that's you, just like you prioritize what you do in a day or what you do at work, you got to prioritize the people that you want to be really, really close with. And pick those three people, three or five people learn one thing about them share one thing about them, and I promise you, I promise you, you will have beautiful, amazing friendships with people.

Michelle Kevill  40:35

That is so good. And I also want to add to that too, because I think like you said, everyone goes vulnerability, and they go straight to like, I have to share the trauma that happened to me when I was No, no, like, little tiny layer. Like, it could be like the thing with my video games, I don't know, maybe you I don't know, do pottery or I don't know, something like that little, just a little spice of vulnerability that that's all there. And again, also with a prioritizing as well. I love that because here's the thing, we already do this subconsciously. So do it subconsciously. Because people think like, oh, that's mean and stuff like that. And it's like, actually, you're already doing it because we can't handle 28 friendships doesn't mean if Sam comes up to you and wants to have a chat you go oh, sorry. You're a dick about it. But yeah, if there are people that you're just more drawn to that you're just having like more connections with like and you know, just catching up just that's fine just do that I think we already naturally do this, or people are just naturally more drawn to you get along the vibe is there but you're just bringing it up to the surface and being like hey like three to five friends and he you go and like prioritize yours you're already doing it on a subconscious level.

41:46

Yes, yeah. So true. So true. Um, and again, it's really going to help you create the the depth that you're looking for. And it's that depth that so many of us are craving right like most most of us are not lonely because we don't have enough friends because we don't know enough people. We are lonely because we haven't gone like deep so that

Michelle Kevill  42:09

thing Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really agree with you with that one around like going just and again, it's gonna be super super deep but just creating a free just sharing things about each other at a certain level of vulnerability that maybe you are comfortable if you're having a rough day because this is another thing to like, you know, I talk about how to calm down etc and stuff like that. You know, there are times I have cried in the bathroom and then my best colleague has come in and being like, you know, just give me a hug or something like that. Like that's, that's that's okay to like having that is a good social support network. And it's it's not a bad thing either. Because at the end of the day, we are all human. And you know, we do that for anyone.

42:50

Yeah, yeah. And again, it's good to have at work that is your life you spent so much your life

Michelle Kevill  42:58

yeah, and enjoy it. That's that's the whole idea. I am, gosh, niche.

43:03

Right, right and enjoy it. And it helps everybody there so many of us get in our heads is we don't want to bother somebody or so on but it helps if you weren't helping your company. If you go in the bathroom and cumbersome eight, you are helping that person you are helping yourself you are helping your company. So

Michelle Kevill  43:22

yeah, that is so so good. So tell us where where can we find you?

43:27

Yes. Um, so you can find me I'm primarily hanging out on Instagram. So at jewel dot Holman. So je w e l dot H O H ma N. The brain based connection coach. So coming out I have a link right now where I have a free freebie that helps people take it less personally and it's been it's been raved about so go check it out.

Michelle Kevill  43:58

That is amazing. That is so good. And guys that will also be in the show notes as well. All that stuff. All the links. Well. Oh, no worries. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great conversation.

44:10

Oh my gosh, so fun. A blast.