The Real Glow-Up: Self-Love, Desire, and Ethical Non-Monogamy with Dr. Joy Berkheimer, EP. 144

Opening a relationship can feel empowering… and activating.

A lot of people expect ethical non-monogamy or polyamory to feel freeing right away. Instead, it often brings up jealousy, comparison, attachment wounds, and questions about self-worth.

If you’ve ever thought:
 “Why am I confident everywhere else but spiraling in my relationship?”
 “Why does non-monogamy trigger my insecurities?”
 “How do I feel secure and desirable while practicing ENM?”

This episode is for you.

Relationship coach Ellecia Paine talks with clinical sexologist and therapist Dr. Joy Berkheimer about confidence, desire, body image, attachment, and emotional regulation in ethical non-monogamy.

Together they explore how ENM can become a path toward deeper self-trust, sexual empowerment, and real self-love.

This conversation blends therapy, lived experience, and practical wisdom for women navigating open relationships, polyamory, and personal growth.

🔥 In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How Dr. Joy discovered non-monogamy through swinging and polyamory
 • Why swingers spaces can be surprisingly consent-focused and body-positive
 • How jealousy and comparison show up in ENM (and what they’re actually pointing to)
 • The role of attachment styles and early relationship experiences
 • How to explore desire without shame
 • Why community and support groups matter in non-monogamy
 • What triads/throuples teach us about boundaries and emotional needs
 • How self-love and sexual confidence impact relationship security
 • What a “glow-up” really means in relationships and personal growth
 • Practical ways to build confidence while practicing ethical non-monogamy

👤 About Dr. Joy Berkheimer

Dr. Joy Berkheimer is a clinical sexologist, licensed therapist, and relationship coach who helps women reconnect with desire, confidence, and embodied self-trust.

Instagram: @glowyourgoddess
YouTube: Dear Dr. Joy
Website: joyberkheimer.com

Transcript

Ellecia: 0:01

Hey, hey, welcome back to, Nope, we're not monogamous. I'm Ellecia Paine, your friendly neighborhood non-monogamy coach, feelings translator, and the person who's probably gonna give you permission to want the thing that you actually want. So today we're talking about something that I see all the time, like weekly, daily, constantly. And it's that moment when someone opens up their relationship or even just starts to consider non-monogamy. Suddenly their nervous system goes, cool, cool, cool, cool. I love this in theory, but also I might be dying. Right? You know what I mean? So you're like, I believe in this, I want this, I chose this. And also, why am I comparing myself to everyone? Why do I suddenly hate my body?

Why am I spiraling at 2: 0:49

00 AM stalking someone's Instagram? Am I just like bad at this? And the answer is no. Just so you know, you're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. You're very human. You're very normal. And so today's guest is Dr. Joy Berkheimer, and I just really freaking love this conversation so much. She's a therapist and a clinical psychologist, a clinical sexologist, and just one of those women who feels really grounded and embodied and wise in a way where you're like, okay, yeah. I can just trust you. Just trust you with my life. Here you go. Have it. Thank you. Uh, you know, she shares a lot about our journey through swinging, polyamory, desire, confidence, body image, jealousy, attachment, stuff like, like so much good juicy stuff. And one of my favorite things that we get into is this idea that these spaces, like swingers clubs, kink clubs, ethical, non-monogamous communities can actually become these weirdly like healing labs. Where, where you learn like, oh, my body is fine, my desire is fine. I'm allowed to want things. There's nothing wrong with me. Which honestly, most of us we're never taught. We were taught to work really hard to be chosen not to choose, right? So this conversation feels very like an exhale, like permission, like, Hey, you get to take up space too. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed recording it. Perfect. Okay, so welcome to, Nope, we're not monogamous. Um, I'm excited to chat with you,

Dr Joy: 2:37

maybe Ellecia.

Ellecia: 2:40

All right. Um. Okay, so here's, here's where I always like to start because it's Nope, we're not monogamous. I always like to ask people, um, what your, um, experience or how did, uh, non-monogamy become a part of your world?

Dr Joy: 2:59

Ah, okay. Then, um. So I would say I probably have known I was non-monogamous, like a good portion of my life. Um, but it was definitely not, you know, I was raised in a household where everyone was, was monogamous. Um, when I got into a relationship after my second marriage. Okay. Um, at this point I was like, look, I'm gonna have everything my way and that's just what it's gonna be. And so, um. At the time, I actually did not know, uh, what polyamory was. I eventually moved to that, but um, my partner at the time, I was kind of frank with him. I'm not saying that this is like the right thing to do as the professional, I'm just telling you what happened. Okay. So I get into the relationship and I'm like, Hey, listen, so I couldn't do this before. I just want you to know I'm gonna have a girlfriend. I don't wanna share. I just wanted to let you know what's gonna happen, and that's okay. You know? And so he's a man and of course not. He had to try to share, you know what I mean? Like, but that's, that is literally, that's the beginning of the whole,

Ellecia: 4:00

yeah.

Dr Joy: 4:04

It was a very interesting journey from there. Again, I didn't know anything about even being open or poly, just knew what I, what I felt. I always knew my sexual orientation. That was always clear. Um, but he introduced me to this whole world of swinging. Where we live, which is a huge thing. I'm like, what? How did I not know this thing existed? And that cracked me open, um, to so much. Um, I never actually. I, I don't, I never really swung, like, I like being in the spaces, but it let me know that I was very much someone who needed to connect with someone emotionally to be, um, central with them. And so that was a really nice journey and of meeting very open-minded people and doing things I'd never done before. And being in spaces where, um, also, I would say for the most part, there's probably a section of people where they all. Yeah, do the same drugs and go to the same gym, right? But then the rest of us are super, like body positive. We can look how we want. And um, that was a really, really significant thing for me to be very much, uh, embracing of self in every way. So, yeah.

Ellecia: 5:07

Yeah, yeah. That's so, so, so relatable. I, uh, kind of did the same thing. I got divorced and I was like, mm, I don't wanna get married again. So I'm just gonna be a slut and be honest about it. Take it or leave it, I don't know. And then, and then I discovered that the thing that other people do too.

Dr Joy: 5:25

Yes. Like, whoa, wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. A whole secret.

Ellecia: 5:30

Right. And then same, I went, my, my, uh, partner was like, let's go to his swinger. Actually, I think I told him, I said, let's go to a swinger's club. It was for his birthday and Uhhuh. And that was one of the best things I could have ever done for my personal, uh, self-image, my body image. I was like, oh my God, look at all these human beings with bodies that do body paint. What?

Dr Joy: 5:52

Potty.

Ellecia: 5:53

Wow. So cool.

Dr Joy: 5:56

Yes. Yeah, that was very nice mobilization.

Ellecia: 6:01

Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. I love that. I love that. And you, um, so you, you do a lot of work with like desire and confidence and, and whatnot, don't you?

Dr Joy: 6:12

Yes, I do. Yes. So, um, being in that space too, of course, everything, it's like, I think like the Wizard of Oz, like, it's like being in the poppy seat field. Like you just feel lost. But there was a lot of like desire and all the things going on and a lot of, um. Permission. That was really what it was. It was a lot of mission, and that was something that I scooped up, um, as a person who, um, I identify and I am a person of color, right. Um, a lot of my PhD work was actually around, um. The barriers to our sensuality as a person, as a woman of color and all those things. Right. And so, yeah. And also just frank in the spaces I would go, especially the swinging spaces, most of the time there wouldn't be anyone like me.

Ellecia: 6:55

Yeah.

Dr Joy: 6:55

Um, most of the time there wouldn't be anyone to look like me. So there, you know, you had to deal with kind of. What is desire, what's a fetish, what's like manipulative, what's just honest and people really just wanna be, and that kind of thing. And so I kind of learned more about keying in on desire and creating desire, and again, creating permission for desire and then bring that to the communities that I already have been working with as a therapist and things like that. So, yeah.

Ellecia: 7:21

Whoa. That is so good. That is so good. I love that that, uh, desire feels like even when people are doing things outside the box, right. Even when they're like doing the unexpected, there's still this like, I don't know, some sort of taboo to, to what? To desire. To desire to wanting things, to, to, yes. And then fulfilling those desires.

Dr Joy: 7:48

Yes, yes.

Ellecia: 7:50

Yeah.

Dr Joy: 7:50

So like burs, this, you know, um, a lot of, I would say like the fight that we, that advocate around desire have is, um, normalizing the fact that pleasure is just as important as like your food, your water, right? And so if you don't tap, if you don't know what your desire is, if you feel like you can't ask for your desire, um. You can't really tap into your pleasure, so how are you tapping into your full power? Right. And that was one of the things that, again, you kind of have to suss out what this means energetically. Even if you're spiritual, like looking at people, everyone seemed very empowered. Mm-hmm. That's a thing. Mm-hmm. Like they feel they. You kind of live off of that, like, oh my gosh. Um, and you know, you wanna know what to do with it and how to really utilize it in a way that's sacred for you. It's different. Everyone should do it the way they want to, but I'm saying this is like a, a nice space for you to kind of go down the line and figure out what you want to, and then repeat that desire in the real world, so to speak. Right. Um, in other relationships as you are, you know, permitted to do so. So yeah, it was a really good, it was a good lab is what it was. It was a good lab.

Ellecia: 8:54

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's really fun. I like that.

Dr Joy: 9:00

Yes.

Ellecia: 9:00

So, so often I hear people, um, you know, I work, I work with a lot of people who, who are in some sort of transition from monogamy to non monogamy or, or swinging to polyamory or, you know, they're, they're just, and so much of the, the central theme is like trying to figure out what they want. Yes. Like, what do, what do I want? Well, I know what I don't want. Almost everybody knows what they don't want, but nobody knows how to figure out what they want.

Dr Joy: 9:28

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it seems reckless, but you almost gotta try it. So, you know, you know, like I, so for my ENM support group, they're, it's every type of ethically non-monogamous relationship you could think of, right? Yeah. And some not ethical, which some people would come so we could be like. Let's not mess up the community anymore. Let's stop. Like, that's not, you're not doing anything ethical, just so you know. Um, but there is, there is like a smorgasbord, you know what I mean? A smorgasbord of information. Um, how do you really figure out what you like? I think, you know, if we start with the fact that accepting that we can like a lot of things at one time, right? And mm-hmm. One stop fighting with their. That. Um, then really allowing ourselves to have a space to feast on that thing for a little bit and figure out how it fits in our life. If it's a dysfunction, if it works for the partnerships that we have or not, are we willing to sacrifice that? How high is this desire? But you kind, you have to embody it just for a bit in order for you to know, you know, um, and that again, can feel scary to people who are not as adventurous or they look at the idea of change as a possible abandoned. I'm not saying that people will not transition away, but I'm saying it is a part of the journey that you kind of just have to accept if you are one who is going to pursue desire.

Ellecia: 10:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. How, okay, if somebody, somebody is wanting to like, stretch that a little bit and, and explore a little bit of what do they like, where would, where would you suggest they start?

Dr Joy: 11:04

Um, I don't think that there is anything wrong with starting with going to a swingers club, but I'm gonna tell you why. Um, yes, all the people are different in different spaces, but, um, in those spaces as well as like BDSM spaces, the mm-hmm the amount of consent and respect around that is high. That I love, right? Yeah. Whether or not it was out of like, I don't know, some misogynistic, patriarchal thing and men protecting their women, it doesn't matter. The women were, they were protected. Like no one is doing anything you don't want them to do. You can be as naked as you wanna be, and it does not mean you could come and touch me. You know what I mean? Like everyone, and at least in my spaces, was very much about like asking. You permission, not like, you know, partnered who owns you or whatever, but like really engaging you and seeing how far, and then also just being thankful that you let me see your boobs, right? Like, okay, thank you. Um, and so I would say, and you don't even have to be naked to be in these spaces. I'm saying it because there was a lot of nakedness, but like, and also I have to say, I entered into this during COVID, so my goodness, I have done, oh, nothing to do but this. Okay. So anyway. Um-huh. Right. It is a great space to have conversation with people who are very open-minded. These are people who like travel over the world. Right. They, um, I mean, and not everybody, but some, a lot of 'em do. You get to connect and then expand your world in that way. Right. The people's houses that I've gone to that I never would've gone to before, there's plenty of people who are like teachers, pastors, police officers, and they usually come over a county so that, so that then whatever the people they serve don't see them. Which is funny to me 'cause I'm just thinking if they're here and you're here, but people still have these little hangups around, you know, separating the two worlds. And again, it's fine the way you wanna do it. So I also wanna say that if you wanna start somewhere, it's also safe because also people are not gonna rat you out, so to speak, right? They're not gonna be like, oh, guess where I saw so and so? We all wanna respect the fact that we've cultivated a space specifically for exploration, and we know the foundation has to be safety. So

Ellecia: 13:02

yeah,

Dr Joy: 13:02

I would say that would actually be a really good. To start and ask questions. People don't mind you asking questions. They don't mind you being new. It's kind of exciting to them, but they're also not gonna take advantage of that. Right. So I think that's actually a good space to start.

Ellecia: 13:15

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense to me. And that was, that was kind of my experience. Um, the, the first time I went to a swinger's club, uh, you know, we're just kind of being social and a lady comes up to me and she's like, God, you're so beautiful. Oh my God. We were at Yoga Retreat together weeks ago, and I was like, oh. Oh no. And yet, and then I was like, wait, we're both here. This is fine. It's okay.

Dr Joy: 13:41

Yes.

Ellecia: 13:43

Here too.

Dr Joy: 13:45

Yes. I

Ellecia: 13:47

love it. And then that, Steve, that same night, the best advice I had gotten, this guy was just talking to us and he said, you know. People always worry about like, well, what if? What if my friends or someone I know sees me at a restaurant or something with people and go, oh, how do you know each other? And he goes, you just always say you met at a barbecue. You meet everybody at a barbecue. I was like

Dr Joy: 14:08

that, by the way. Always works wild. We did barbecue, so we can easily say we've a barbecue.

Ellecia: 14:18

Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, amazing, amazing. So, um, okay, so you started out with, with swinging a little play, uh, and then you moved into polyamory.

Dr Joy: 14:34

I did because I, again, I knew I didn't wanna, um, as sexist as I, once, I didn't, I didn't wanna sleep with another man who I wasn't like in a relationship with. Um, and at like yes, meaning. No, that's what I mean. That is exactly what I mean. So if I was going to do that and explore with anybody, I wanted to kind of be even with that, then I did wanna have some sort of connection with them. And so from there we kind of expanded with basically like doing research. Like what's a throuple? What's parallel poly? What's solo poly? You know, what's e and m in general? What's open and how do we wanna go about it? So we did just so much research. So. And then again, talking to people in the community and because of where, um, I live, it is a pretty big community. There's a, on meetup.com, there's a huge poly community, right? And so amazing. Yes. And it's not like that everywhere. And I, I found that out with doing a support group, which is why I started the support group because people all over the world and they're like, I'm by myself. It'd be like one couple. I'm like, man, there are a lot of different cities and pockets where it's more prevalent at this point. So I think we really engaged in the community in that way and started doing. The functions with people. So it wasn't like just diving in, like, let's get a partner, but like, let's see how people do partner again. And we, so we got really curious about that and made a lot of friends, I would say both their swinging and in, um, the poly community. So it kind of, it started that way. Um, I don't know how far you want me to go with that part, but Yeah. Like that's, so we got into, I would say, no, I'll say this after, and this is my ex by the way, so I'm gonna speak to about it. After we decided to go into poly. He has a, um, a bonkers meter. The most bonkers person you can meet is the person he would bring to us. Okay? And it was too much. So I'm like, dude, I am off the clock. I am not this person. Say like, I'm not trying to figure out these like, diabolical mindset, what is happening? Like, it was a lot. Okay? Mm-hmm. And so. I had to, uh, separate from, and I would, at the time I was really only trying to date women anyway, so I separated from that 'cause he just wasn't a good picker. Um, and I opted to do, um, parallel Polly, right? So both of us kind of having a partner. So we all, we knew, everyone knew each other. I was like, yeah, you know, we were all friends. Wouldn't, I didn't want to share a partner with him. He was so different in what he was looking for. Um, oh my gosh, just so different. It, it was, it was very interesting. Or. Which is kind of weird looking for people who look like me. I'm like, I also don't remember that bow, like, I don't like, I don't like, you know, the doppelganger. Like, so, um, at some point we did actually have a throuple, which, uh, you know, lasted for a bit. And I, but I, I'll tell you this, I got a lot of data from that, like a lot of data around all the things that happened, um, with our attachment styles, jealousy, uh, um, unchecked. Mental health things, I would say. Right? Yeah. Um, I, I real clear on, on that and trying to manage it for more than one person. First of all, another adult shouldn't be managing another adult's mental health. Mm-hmm. But there's just mm-hmm. I would say that like a bit of codependency in the relationship to begin with. Right. And so we've been extend to whatever partners came in, and so we're just like codependent, like naked people all the time. So I had to take accountability for my own stuff, and I tried to branch out. I did branch out on my own and had my own really beautiful partnerships, and my partner did as well. But that, that's pretty much where I would say before our partnership ended, that's where we ended it with, uh, parallel Poly. So,

Ellecia: 18:18

yeah. Yeah. Uh, so fascinating about all the data in a throuple. Or triad. I hate the word throuple saying this. I'm like, why are we trying to like, make it like couple?

Dr Joy: 18:31

That's true. That's true. I think maybe someone just thought it was cute. Yeah, that's that's true.

Ellecia: 18:35

Yeah. I, uh, we, we actually had a, um, we had a, a custody, legal, uh, situation a few years back and our polyamory mm-hmm. Was kind of central to that, and the judge kept calling it a throuple and I was just like, Ugh. Stop it. I wasn't gonna correct the judge, but

Dr Joy: 18:55

you just look better than me. That's why I'm always in trouble. I'm like, your honor.

Ellecia: 19:01

Yeah. Right. Excuse me. Um, it's so funny to me though, in anytime you have three people, just the dynamics. It's, it's so. Hard. It's so, and I had a throuple for eight years, but it just, it adds such a, like I also have three kids and I'm like, anytime you see three kids playing, there's always one who feels left out always. And, and yeah, like, it's like the human beings just kind of pair off. Like we just

Dr Joy: 19:35

Yeah.

Ellecia: 19:35

Naturally kind of do that. And, and we, we change it. Pair off with different people all the time, but like, we're like, Hey, I'm looking at you and I'm talking to you, or I'm engaging with you in other physical ways. And then you, you add in another person and things.

Dr Joy: 19:50

Yes.

Ellecia: 19:50

It's like, where do I look? Who do I talk to? What am I doing?

Dr Joy: 19:54

Yes. Yeah. How do I divide up my time? Whatever previous agreements you had, like you gotta start from scratch. Like all the agreements have to come again. And do we even know that we're supposed to make agreements? No one knows that. Like I didn't know that. It was just like, oh, let's try. Let's see. Yeah.

Ellecia: 20:09

Uh, see what sticks.

Dr Joy: 20:12

Def

Ellecia: 20:14

So, so are, can I ask you, what was the, what was the most surprising or most challenging thing that came outta that,

Dr Joy: 20:26

uh, surprising that. Honestly, like I think there was a conversation when we were diving into it, especially when we got into our college triad. Our triad, right. Um, because I would say we were both pretty, very much enamored with this person or whatever, right? Um, it was that there was an agreement at some point that if things went left as the primary partners, again, there was a lot of learning hierarchy, whatever. Um. That we would stop. Right? And then when I realized like that was not the case, that like I had to kind of switch my whole relationship and life around like, wait, what do you mean? Like, no, I know I said that with, but you know, I'm in love. So, no, like, oh my God, that was probably the most surprising thing. Like I'm not in charge of my relationship. No, you're not. 'cause you decided to share it. You know what I mean? Like you, that's, that is a decision that you made. Um, so that was probably a big, like, whoa, you know, this is a, this is a real considerate, like this is a real thing. You know what I mean? Like, I can't just have, I can't just manifest the things I want, like I always do. Like this is kind of wild. Um, that was probably the biggest thing for me, and I could see why it would trigger jealousy and, uh, fear really in people. Yeah. When they open up their relationships, you know, because. We do have this expectation of sameness all throughout. And that was really, that too was a reminder. And when I teach people, like nothing ever stays the same. It doesn't, even as a couple's therapist for two people before I was even p whatever, I would always let them know. Every relationship is several relationships. Things change based off of when you have kids, when a parent gets sick, when you lose a job, when we have a pandemic, it's a new relationship over and over and over again. Right. And so, um, the realization that it, it can also be new with this other person and you can be. Something that you hold a chunk of time that you held dear and just be like, no, you, you forfeited it with this wish that was granted to you. Like, oh my gosh, that, that was like wake up call. So yeah.

Ellecia: 22:26

Yeah, that is huge. That is huge and so true. Mm-hmm. The relationships, everything changes. I had someone, uh, send me a message the other day, and it was a whole long thing, but one part stood out to me where he said, my wife has lost herself in motherhood. I was like, no, this is who she is now. She's a mom now. She's not lost. This is who? Her identity now.

Dr Joy: 22:50

Yeah. What he's saying is he lost his wife. Yeah. Oh my goodness. He lost, lost. He was married. Who he was. Yes, yes, yes. But yeah, no, that is How come he didn't lose himself and fatherhood and neither there, here nor there. That

Ellecia: 23:03

was one.

Dr Joy: 23:04

Yeah.

Ellecia: 23:07

At some point in there you started. A poly support group or a nonno, a non-monogamy support group?

Dr Joy: 23:12

Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ellecia: 23:13

How much of that was for you and how much of that was for others?

Dr Joy: 23:19

Me, what it was for it was for me to, what is, um, what's the word I'm thinking of? Uh, not suss, there's another word for it. I wanted to find these people who were crippling the community and, and like kick 'em out. Like, come here so I could tell you to get out. Find everybody this. Don't date this guy, don't let him in. Okay. You heard what he said, right? All right. We all heard it. We've agreed Fred cannot get in that he doesn't do it right. Let it go. So the group has continued without like outliers coming in and being like, um, 'cause what we would see a lot is, especially let's say the community that we had here, the the meetup community. Say you go to a meetup, sometimes they're really good, but sometimes it's just like a stack literally of single guys, right? And. Couple single guys and couples, and maybe there's usually like no single women, to be honest. Like that's not, they just, they just weren't, mostly couples came, so it was tough. But you can see guys being like, no, I'm Polly. Like I hear what you're saying. So, or, or we could call it solo Polly. So you're a single human being who, who sleeps with several people. Like, I don't know. Just say that. Don't come me here trying to confuse us like you ready? So, um, that's what we would really like talk about in the support group. Like, is this really this or isn't this So, uh, being a clarifier for the community felt so good and it, and it, it felt really good for the community. They felt empowered and so they would come, say they would come alone and they would come back with their, with one of their partners, maybe sometimes with more than one of their partners. Or they would have like the par their nesting partner on screen with them. 'cause everyone had to turn their camera too. We weren't, I wouldn't allow people to just be in here like looking at us. Then their other partner might be in another city and also log in, that type of thing. So it was really nice in getting people just feel stronger about also what they sense. Like, I felt like this was wrong and now I can come to the group and maybe it's not, maybe it's my insecurity, whatever it was, but get clarity and in front of everybody, you know where Yeah. And it's not like, um, like to embarrass you. It's not that. It's like, say you're in therapy with me, one-on-one, every time you're gonna go back and you're gonna tell your, your family, your partner, something that I did not say. In the way it did not say it. So if we're all in a support group together, right, which is not therapy, but it's supportive, then everyone can interpret it and ask the questions and understand it at the end of this conversation together, right? And so walk away with, with a clarity to together. So that was really the purpose for people to be more clear. I don't like. Confusion. I just, I think it's so unnecessary. Um, I mean, it's there for the purpose really, of the people who want to honestly manipulate you out of your values or what you're trying to do. Um. Mm-hmm. And so I, I promote us being super clear. I'm not saying that I'm on the spectrum. I'm not saying I'm not, but whatever part I'm is a part where I'm like, Ew, lies what? Tell the truth. I just, I can't operate under that stuff. Like, I can't, I can't do it. So. Uh mm-hmm.

Ellecia: 26:17

Yes, yes, yes. Very relatable. Very relatable. Let's just make it all very clear that is exactly why I do this. Yes. Let's make it clear and accessible and, uh, more, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Just, just more people having awareness. Yes. And using the same language and less and knowing that they aren't doing something that is weird or bad or makes them a villain. They're just being humans who have desires.

Dr Joy: 26:49

Yes, yes. And just education is great. Like I, um, from the support group because people would ask for different recommendations. I literally made on, um, my main page. A recommendation list of books, resources, all the things, all things in, and poly even, um, you know, because of my sexology, like that type of thing too, because people would come around that, you know, for that as well, but. When people would like, like just, what is it, secure, whatever. She's written several books, but it would be one that like, if you came to the group and you hadn't even cracked the book, I'm like, oh, that's so scary. Please read this. Um, but like, yeah, this all because, so we, and they would come back and like, oh my God, I know this thing. And then we could all speak in the same language. You know what I mean? Yeah. When we were referencing that you knew what this was or whatever. We can openly talk about jealousy and not be like, why are you jealous? It's not, no, it's normal. Like, what do you mean? Let's process through this. Like it's absolutely reasonable. And then you have another person like, oh my, I'm jealous too. Oh my god, apple smothered him last night. I get it, girl. Like, you need that. Like you need this.

Ellecia: 27:50

Yes, yes, absolutely. A hundred percent. I love that. I'm not alone. I'm not the only one that's doing this.

Dr Joy: 27:58

No, yeah, absolutely not. And it's very relieving and especially if you have a partner who is coming at you, like, why are you doing this? And then they can see that other people also, you know, could experience the same thing. So, and know how to kind of handle it differently. Yeah,

Ellecia: 28:10

yeah,

Dr Joy: 28:11

yeah.

Ellecia: 28:11

Yeah. That was beautiful. That was beautiful. I love it. I love it so much. So I, I'm curious, so where are you at now? Uh, in your relationship journey?

Dr Joy: 28:22

Oh my goodness. I am that the one that I just described was probably Okay. I had several partners and it was like a whole, um, desirable of exploration. And I started going on these, uh, different like tan retreats, which kind of coagulated with basically like a spiritual awakening, right? Like I, I was going like a lot of different spaces and my. Primary part, my nesting partner wasn't, he started not coming with me 'cause he was hanging out with his other partners being debaucherous. Right? So it like me coming to this space of basically starting to, with prob uh, one of my last partners and then it grew. I started practicing sacred sex and. Is really, it's like when you really deepen that connection with your intimacy with, it's not even about like being holier than now. That's not how I look at like the divine of spirituality. It's not that. But what is good for my spirit? What's good for my body, what's good for also for my growth, right? And I am very much a growth minded person. Um, and I don't wanna be in partnership with anyone. Sexually sensually energetically, financially, that is not trying to grow and expand and learn in the same ways that I am. And so kind of me learning more about myself, put me in a position to not be connected with the partners that I was connected to. And now I'm, I'm on my own. Um, I would say I still identify as ENM. But I just, yeah. All of that love energy that I was focusing on, all the things has been pouring into myself and then kind of flowing over into my community and,

Ellecia: 30:01

yeah.

Dr Joy: 30:01

Yeah, like I'm, I'm literally in a relationship with myself and I'm, I'm quite in love. I love that.

Ellecia: 30:07

I love that. I love that. I, uh, uh, also similarly, uh, have gone, have gone down, uh, many, uh, spiritual sexual pleasure paths and, uh, and there is something that we are not taught, our society does not teach people in general how to mm-hmm. Love themselves.

Dr Joy: 30:29

Yes. Yeah.

Ellecia: 30:30

And, and when you, when you find it, it's, it's like, what, how, how did I not know that this was possible?

Dr Joy: 30:38

Because we're not raised, we more so we are as women, I'm gonna say, are raised to not love ourselves. We are raised to support people in our lives. I don't wanna say just men, but Yes men. And they are not raised the same way. To love, to not love themselves. You know what I mean? They're not, they're not, they, no. Everyone has their own challenges and things like, okay, so you weren't allowed to cry. However, you are allowed to expect a person of another gender is supposed to do for you. Right? To manage all these things for you. Um, so I feel like when we stop managing other people and the fact that, think about how miraculous you have to be to be able to manage all, like all these partners things, um, and then you take all of that and pour that back into yourself. It is. How was I not doing this before? How could I have treated myself like this? Um, but then when I kind of grown, I've gone through like the chapters of the relationships and things like that. Um, as I'm like healing and growing and looking at maybe some of the ways that I was treated or some of the agreements that I, uh, fell into that I was okay with, that I would not have in a space of loving me in the way that I do. Right? So my poly, my e and m would look so different coming from this space.

Ellecia: 31:50

Yes. Yes, a hundred percent. I could not agree more. Wow. Um, yeah, I, is there, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share?

Dr Joy: 32:04

About what? Anything in the work or at not anything.

Ellecia: 32:08

Anything at all. Yeah, anything at all. What do people need to hear right now?

Dr Joy: 32:14

Yeah, people like. Keep going, whatever your exploration is, even if you feel like you've failed at swinging, you failed at, um, non-monogamy or polyamory or whatever it is, there's no failure. Everything is an experience. You can call it a lesson. Sure. Um, but it's, it's an experience and I feel like that's, that's what we're meant to be here for. That's what actually helped me moving through all those stages. I don't experience shame. In the way that I was raised to experience shame, and I think it was because of the part, I will always love him for this, that he created such a container of safety for me to just explode in all the things and just see right, and not have shame about it. And, and not do anything dangerous, but just do things that are maybe dangerous to other people around you. My advice would be like, do all the things you, you desire, be safe about it, as safe as you can, or you know, to be at the moment, forgive yourself for the stuff that you didn't know and just keep going. And I'm sorry, our entire life I think is, um, it's an experience, but it's also a becoming, it's becoming whoever you were, whoever you. Your actual essence is, it's bigger than our body, right? We have a whole aura, like, I wanna fill up that whole space and, but you know, what are all the colors? Let me explore it. And I think we, we decided to have this physical experience, right? So that we all has to think about it. I think of. These things as being a gift. 'cause if we were, if there is this concept of me having a physical experience and me having a spiritual experience, imagine a spirit. The spiritual experience is what it is. Let's say it's like the definition of bliss all the time. But if you have bliss all the time, you don't, you don't even really know what bliss is. It just always feels like bliss, right? So we came down here so that we could have the other stuff and then remember bliss, and then remember the heights, and then remember the, the keys to get higher and higher. I'm not gonna lie, like I, I don't know if it was turning 40. S the swinging the poly, but I mean, the orgasms are ridiculous that like, just keep going because you have no idea what the heights of your pleasure are. Right. And I, I've discovered. So much from that and it so much in fact that I want other people to have the access to it. And so I combine like my spiritual practices, my central practices I've created, I actually just created like a tarot deck, a oracle deck, a mudra deck, things that represent, um. Yes. Sensual healing and clarity that are accessible to everybody.

Ellecia: 34:42

That's the thing

Dr Joy: 34:42

I wanna, I want us, because the places that I've been, it felt like little secret clubs and people, you know, they wanna protect themselves, but I just think more people should know there are different paths to freedom, different paths to liberation. Yes. Yeah.

Ellecia: 34:56

Yes. Oh my God, I love that you are, I adore you. You are a magical being. Thank you so much.

Dr Joy: 35:02

You are definitely a magical being. I can tell, but so many reasons. But yes, thank you.

Ellecia: 35:07

How, how can people find you?

Dr Joy: 35:09

Um, if you are an instagramer, you can find me at, uh, glow Your Goddess. If you are a YouTuber, you can find me at Dear Dr. Joy. Um, and if you are just a regular internet person, joy berkheimer.com works great.

Ellecia: 35:22

One of those. I love that. Oh, amazing. Amazing.

Dr Joy: 35:30

Yes.

Ellecia: 35:31

This is, this is so good. Uh, your energy just really, uh, is, it's so amazing and this is so fun. And I, I really appreciate you coming on.

Dr Joy: 35:41

Of course. Thank you for having me on. I love your style. I really do. I love your style of like us flowing and everything. This is Thank you. This'll be nice. Yeah. Good, good. Thank you. Thank you.

Ellecia: 35:51

Can we just take a second and appreciate Dr. Joy's energy? Like I finished this conversation and I sat there smiling because it just felt so good and so like free. And what I really loved about what Dr. Joy shared is this reminder that nothing is wasted. Like not the messy relationships, not the experiments, not the like, well, that was chaotic eras, not the triad that blew up your entire nervous system. Right? None of it like. Like it's all data. It's all learning and education for yourself. And I think so many of us secretly walk around thinking like, I failed at non-monogamy, or I suck at relationships, or I'm just not cut out for this. Or Everyone else has this figured out. Why can't I do it right? And I gently wanna call BS on that. Okay, because you didn't fail. You tried, you felt, you learned. Hopefully, you know, you, you grow from it. And that is literally the work that's like the glow up, not becoming like hotter or cooler or more chill and low maintenance, but becoming more, you, more of who you are. More honest, more self trusting. That's where the real magic is. So if this episode hit you somewhere tender or you're in that like messy in between place where you're like, I want this life, but also, what the heck am I doing? Come talk to me. You can book a free clarity chat, no pressure, no weird sales energy, just, um, you know, two of us figuring stuff out. And, and you can go to my website to find that at www.elleciapaine.com/chat. And if you love this conversation, you can send it to a friend, leave a review, follow or subscribe so you don't miss episodes. Uh, it really does help this little corner of the internet grow and go check out Dr. Joy. She's doing really beautiful work in the world. Okay, friends, remember. You always get to change your mind. There's nothing wrong with you. You're fantastic, and I'll see you next week. Bye.