French Macarons - Secrets from a Le Cordon Bleu Pastry Chef with Molly Wilkinson

French macarons are one of the most iconic and technically demanding creations in French pâtisserie — but what separates a macaron from a macaroon, and why do professional pastry chefs use Italian meringue while most home baking recipes use French meringue? 

In this episode, Andrew is joined by pastry chef Molly Wilkinson, a Le Cordon Bleu graduate who spent years working in Parisian pastry shops — including making 1,500 macarons a day on a professional macaron station.

Molly walks us through the fascinating history of the macaron — from its Italian origins at the court of Catherine de Medici, through the regional variations still found across France today, to the moment Ladurée introduced the filled version we know and love in 1850s Paris. She also explains the difference between French, Italian and Swiss meringues, which produces the best macaron shell and why, and what the colour of a macaron shell actually tells you about its flavour.

You'll also get Molly's expert tips on getting perfect shells at home — from why powdered food colouring is better than liquid, to the right way to store macarons (hint: the freezer is your friend), and which flavour Molly considers the ultimate macaron. Plus, Andrew shares the story of Montmorillon's own unique version of the macaron — the almond-based speciality from his home town.

Molly Wilkinson is a pastry chef, author of French Pastry Made Simple, and teacher based in Versailles, France, just five minutes from the Château de Versailles.

My book Paris: A Fabulous Food Guide to the World’s Most Delicious City is your ultimate companion. This is a new 2026 update for the book and you’ll find hand-picked recommendations for the best boulangeries, patisseries, wine bars, cafés, and restaurants that truly capture the flavor of Paris. You can order it online at andrewpriorfabulously.com 

For those who want to take things further, why not come cook with me here in Montmorillon, in the heart of France’s Vienne region? Combine hands-on French cooking classes with exploring charming markets, tasting regional specialties, and soaking up the slow, beautiful pace of French countryside life. Find all the details at andrewpriorfabulously.com

You can help keep the show thriving by becoming a paid subscriber on substack where you'll also get fabulous extra content. Every contribution makes a huge difference. Join here at Substack , Merci beaucoup!

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Transcript

Speaker: 0:03

What's the difference between a macaroon, a macaroon and macaron? Bonjour. This is fabulously delicious. The podcast that's all about And the people that love it, and photograph it. I'm Andrew Prior. My motto in life is whatever you And my guests each week Today it's all about macarons. Macarons are some people like to The French macaroon are a sweet come across them. Funnily enough, they often made opposed to a French one. This is because there's better Italian meringue, or possibly France through the Italian chef during the Renaissance period. To delve further into the subject of macarons, I'm joined today by the wonderful pastry chef who I like to call the Princess of Pastry, Molly Wilkinson. Welcome to Fabulously Delicious and thank you for being my first guest. Thanks so much for having me, I'm super excited to be here. I can't wait to dive right into macaroons or macaroons or Macron. Mm. Well, that's what leads me What's the difference between a Okay, so I will admit I do say macaroon quite a lot because I'm American. And macaroons spelled with two O's are actually the coconut concoction. All right, so it's the pile of coconut and it's usually dipped in chocolate. They're super delicious, but very different from the French macaroon. Okay. Spelled with one O. Um, that is what is super popular today with the two cookies that are sandwiched together, a really delicious filling. And then Macron is the French president, so also very different. Molly, your career didn't start You started in digital I did, so I did the very I went to college at TCU, Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Texas. I'm originally from Dallas, and um, after that I started working in marketing. So digital marketing and I did I absolutely loved it. Um, it was very different from Um, but yeah, I decided to thirteen and, um, moved to Paris So, yes, you started Le Cordon What did you do? Did you do the full diploma I did, um, so I did the pastry Right. Okay, so that's nine months. It's a yeah, it's a nine month And then after that I did a So an internship at a very arrondissement in Paris. Um, I had the opportunity to go and work for a really big name places like Pierre Hermé, but I decided to actually go to this super small pastry shop run by two women. And so I could learn everything that they did, uh, start to finish and really learn the process of running a pastry shop as well. Um, because a lot of people you know, so many different the, um, oh, my gosh, what's the The case. Um, every morning. How is that possible? Are they fresh? And so it was really amazing to see the actual, um, background of that and, um, see how they do, uh, the production every day. And, um, I learned a lot. I learned so much. So are you getting up, like, at shop at four? No, I have had jobs like that. But no, for this one. For my internship, I was very So, you know, like I said, it They got to decide their hours So they would arrive around nine We would open the pastry shop whenever everything was done. Um, and that worked out well don't shop for pastries super Right? They're usually picking them up, know, having after their meals. And, um, we closed up shop and often their friends from the have, you know, a glass of wine. We'd do apéro. So it was it was great. It was not your typical, you know, three a m situation, though. I have had that before, though. And this is, uh, La Fabrique Yeah. That's correct. And it's. Yeah. Right. And you mentioned that there were two ladies that worked there. So that's that was a bit of an Wouldn't it have been for a Yeah, I would say relatively unusual, um, especially because it was two friends who decided to open up this shop and, um, they'd study together at Ferrandi, which is another fantastic school in Paris for pastry, and then had worked together at a very renowned pastry shop in Paris, um, for several years before deciding to go out and opening their own shop. So they were I mean, their on classics, and they were fun, Sometimes there's like zebra it was just it was a great French, but absolutely You were at Le Cordon Bleu. That's I mean, for so many They know Le Cordon Bleu through What was the experience like to rooms where people like Julia It was amazing. We actually had a hallway that and I loved that. Um, because one of the one of my favorite books, just in general, is my life in France, um, talking about Julia Child's life. And, uh, it was just it was so And, um, I actually I went to older location on Rue Vaugirard, And since I graduated, I actually moved to another location. It's definitely larger, more And, um, I'm sure it was still Um, but it was very different being in this tiny, tiny school with, I think, three floors, um, and not enough space for the amount of students that they had. I remember it well, yes. Oh my goodness. Every time, like every week, our schedule would change because they had to kind of rotate people through. But it was a really fantastic I really enjoyed it. And you, you're making pastry So as people. Can you explain the whole sort Le Cordon Bleu, um, for people out there that haven't been before. Yeah. So, uh, you always do a are sitting and watching the desserts in one sitting. Okay. And those classes are I think there were three hours, if I remember correctly. And, um, the the actual recipes that you received only included the ingredients and the quantities. Sometimes the oven temperatures. But that was it. And so, um, you had to write you heard them from the chef. And I started developing a shorthand for how to write those, because there's so much information. And you really started to learn by, of course, listening to what was happening, but also watching the motions of the chef as he was going through different things. Um, so you did that first the you would go straight into what small group scenarios where you desserts that the chef just back another day, like depending But that was how it went. So first a demonstration. Here's exactly how it's supposed Yours should look exactly like And then going into the practical and at the end they would go through and the chef would go around and actually, um, grade your pastries sometimes taste them, but not always, which I thought was kind of. And I mean, sometimes those schedules, they they're, they can be like one on top of the other. So I found, I don't know whether you know, you would come home had a practical in the morning the afternoon because your you're making, oh, I don't know, chocolates, twelve brioches. And you bring all that home all Um, and then the next day you're Yep, yep. And you've got to bring that My roommate loved it. Yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. My husband did the same. Uh, but it's not so good for the But look, that's what the the uh, steps in your apartment to Oh, gosh. Exactly, exactly. So, Molly, then after your, uh, course at Le Cordon Bleu and your stars, you then went back to Texas. And, um, that must have been a bit of a culture shock for you to go back home after being in Paris for. Was it, like, a year? Yeah, it was a year and a couple I stayed up until I had to I think there's four days left knew in my heart that I wanted And so I was like, I, you know, I'm gonna play by the rules, leave before my visa's up, and then figure it out when I'm back home. And, um, so when I moved back, I I've been working for them Um, because school was fifteen hours per week, and I wanted to have some income coming in so I could pay for my rent, you know, go out and do things in Paris, etc., etc. but also, I wasn't sure at that point if I was ready to make the full switch into pastry. And so I was like, let's hang on I really love my marketing job. I'm exploring pastry. I'm not sure where that's going And so when I moved back to So I did two days, two or three days of my marketing job and then two days, two or three days of pastry. So kind of depending on how it And um, it was exhausting. So I would have a job that was very much so, you know, using like a ton of brainpower sitting at a desk looking at Excel all day. And then I would have a job where I was standing for super long hours. And I mean, as you know, and using a lot of mental power, but So it would be either like I just had the worst headache, like exhausted from my day or, you know, my feet would be exhausted. But it was great because I was kind of in this in-between period. periods, so I had time to really explore being in a professional kitchen and what that looked like, and if I really wanted to do that. Um, because oftentimes people or even when they're in culinary this was fun, but let's do this It's a lot of hard work. Um, so I had time to, to really And I worked for a lot of back in Texas. And how did you find the differences that that cultural difference. But then just in what you'd been patisserie compared to how it is I mean, one of the experiences I've gone to the States is that and I'm always amazed by the they come to a Paris patisserie they go, it's not as sweet as it Oh gosh, you are so right. I think that yes, there's a lot of people that when they try my dessert, they do find that the sweetness levels are a lot more subtle than what they're used to. And so I think people really And it's also something that you can kind of dial back or dial up too. So I've had, you know, a lot of more subtle focusing on really good balance of, um, the actual So it's not just a one note. Ooh, this is really sweet. It's more so you're tasting oh, raspberries plus a little bit of that have been added and things well-rounded, um, treat. And so, similarly to myself, I came to Paris in twenty twelve and then came back again, um, in twenty sixteen. So you had that pull for France you know, you need to come back. You need to come back. So what what brought you to come Well, I as soon as I left. Well, no way. Before I left France, I knew And, um, the funny thing is, is before that, I was never a Francophile. Uh, you know, I wasn't one of those girls that had, um, you know, Paris photos all over my room. Um, but I had really fallen in love with the city and the culture, so I left, and I was actually supposed to come pretty much immediately back to France, um, to work for a Mexican restaurant. That was by two French guys that And, uh, just which is common often get pushed back. And so it actually worked out was able to work at lots more, Dallas Really keep, you know, And, um, eventually I got back a came back on a tourist visa, back for three months maximum. So while I was here, I was So I had my resume, my CV ready. I was going from place to place way to stay here long term. Um, and in the middle of that, I south of France. Yes, I've seen that. What was that experience like? I was incredible, was, um, an amazing place to be, really inspired in terms of different creations. And I was given a lot of liberty in terms of what I wanted to make. So that was great. So I was really putting to use everything that I'd learned in school, but also by working after I graduated and developing, um, my kind of signature style, which takes years to really kind of grow into. And so, um, yeah, it was And the south of France, I mean, Uh, the ingredients, especially the, the fruit and things that would come from that area, the lemons, it's, um, I can imagine it's just an amazing place for produce. Yeah. There is a local market in the once a week, uh, when they had different fruits and vegetables. But, um, also there's markets in could kind of go to one any day to pick something up or when you inspiration, you know, see what And, uh, it was it was Yes. So I like to call you the Um, and that's because our But you live in, you will, you Well, you technically do live in the city of the city of Versailles. Not the the the chateau of the Well, maybe you live in the Chateau of Versailles, I don't know. Um, I mean, no, but very close I'm five minutes walk from the But what is that like? What's that like as an I mean, living in Paris is an You know, there's so much Besides one of my favorite tours there myself. You do tours there? What's that like? To have that experience of being It is. It's fantastic. Um, so I it's very, very lived for three years. And it's, you know, it's just So there's a lot more to the Um, I think, as you know, a lot boulevards into the castle. Um, it's massive. And so you're exhausted. I went, um, last week, and I was there, and afterwards I was just You went for the dog walk I saw And I love that because it was like when I was in Paris, our dog walking park was the Palais Royale. And yours? Yours is the Gardens of It is. So there is a part of. Well, there's a couple parts of the gardens that are open to everyone. Right. Um, include dogs. And so, um, the one that I walk around most often is called PSG de Suisse. Um, and it's named after the out this lake. And, uh, it's beautiful. So it's in the shape of an So an oval shape with kind of And, it's to the left side of If you're facing the front And you can see a beautiful, beautiful view of the palace and the orangery. And that's where I. Yeah, that's It's fabulous. Why not? Yeah, totally. Yeah. Have you been to Marie she had built? Oh. It's gorgeous. So I went, um, during Covid, open to the public, the gardens. It was in between a couple of And so I went then, and, um, the buildings themselves were still closed, but it was fun to to walk around the, the property that she had there, the beautiful farmhouses. And there's even farm animals here pretty soon. I'm thinking I'll go. Maybe next week. Um, but it's such a great area A quick little pause. Fabulous. If you're enjoying the show and goodness in your life, then come fabulously delicious Substack. For those of you who might be I was lucky enough to be a Australia back in. Well, I think it was twenty Yes, now it was. And that experience completely changed the direction of my life in food. Not long after, I packed up and And I've now lived here for more These days, I call the French Countryside Home, where I host intimate cooking classes and culinary experiences, sharing regional dishes, traditions, and little secrets that I've learned from living and cooking here in France. Substack is where I share the make it onto the podcast. My favorite French food France Recipes that I'm testing, behind the scenes stories from life in rural France, and all the delicious gossip that comes with being immersed in French food culture. Think of it as the bonus course which is fabulously delicious. A little more personal, a little more detailed, and very, very French. You can subscribe for free or If you'd like to support the more French food stories every generally makes a difference. So merci beaucoup to those paid You'll find the link in the show notes, or you can go to Andrew Pryor Fabulously dot com for more information. Come for the croissants and stay If you love discovering the very indulge in Paris. Well, I have something rather My book, Paris A Fabulous Food Guide to the World's Most Delicious City, has just been newly updated. And it's bigger and better than The new edition offers over one exploring the history of food in just where to eat, but why Paris of the world in the first place. Alongside my favourite Fromagerie wine bars, markets, you'll now also find dedicated vegetarian dining in Paris, spots for those unforgettable highlight of locations featured So you can dine where they dine It's the guide I wish I'd had Paris, full of personal addresses and the kind of places After the first bite, you can website Andrew Pryor fabulously. Com. It's also available on Amazon, locally, simply ask your to order it in for you. Support your local bookshops is So if a trip to Paris is on your horizon and you simply want to dream about one from your kitchen table, Paris a fabulous food guide to the world's most delicious city is your delicious companion. Now getting back to macarons. Yes, you have a new book out. What's it called? It's called French pastry made On the cover you have some cream puffs with some berries on top on a very beautiful antique platter. And then there's also a Antoinette, and it's like she's Love it. Are there any macaron recipes in There are. There's actually a macaron tower here, so I made it with pink and yellow macaron. Um, and it's it's really great because it has very detailed instructions in terms of what to look for when making French macaron, because they are quite difficult. They're very finicky. So getting into that, I wanted For people that are listening, types of meringues. Is that correct? And I touched on this before sort of the most popular. But can you explain the Yeah. So you have three the French, Italian and the Swiss meringues, and they're all named after countries. Don't ask me why, but they all um. The French ring is the most up egg whites and adding Um, until they make a stiff Uh, depending on what you're making, the Italian meringue is where you heat up sugar and water to make a sugar syrup, a hot sugar syrup, and you're heating it to a certain temperature. And then you pour it into Um, and so that is one of the It's what most pastry chefs use of a lemon tart or, um, you kisses, things like that, icing Then you have the third version, And it's funny because, um, I Uh, I think because I find it a if that makes sense. Which is so funny. Um, but you put on your egg mixing bowl, and then you put water, a bain Marie. Yes, exactly a bain Marie. The bane of Marie's existence. Mm. I know it's an oldie, but a It's a goodie. You're whisking it until the sugar dissolves and the actual temperature of the egg whites will. The mixture actually increases. Then you whip it up. So I think why I, I don't like manual in terms of your. It's very hands on. You're whisking a lot. You're touching, you know, the are sticky and hot. And then, you know, there's dripping off the pot. I'm really selling it, right? Yeah, I know. That's why I really like playing Because you just put the sugar Put a thermometer in. Watch the temperature and then pour it into your whipped up egg whites. So. And then you just whip it up Now, what would be the biggest misconception about making a macaron? From the point of view of being being a home cook? Yeah. So I think there's a couple. So you touched on one of them at Um, a lot of people think that, meringue in order to make use Italian meringue. Um, it's more stable. It's easier to produce great Um, so one of my jobs after I on a macaron station, and I made macaron per day. And. That's what we use. You know, I've seen you. I've seen you make them on And now I know why you get the And I do not, because never in five hundred macarons in a day. Never in my life will I make one in a day, I don't think. Yeah, my oh my gosh, I guess And so it's really kind of And yes, professionals use the Italian meringue version, but most often I teach the French meringue version. So that is actually what did the book because it's easier, it's more accessible. And um, it's just overall it is I mean, you're just whipping up Um, and so there's a little bit There's a little bit of you're always making meringue, There's a whole section on meringue, actually, specifically for macaron. There's the most important thing understanding the different hand Each of the steps that you kind Um, one after the other. And um, if you're following those steps in that method, you know, whether you're using the French method or the Italian meringue method for making those, you're going to have good results. One of the most important things about a macaron is the eating of the macaron. I have to say, what? What would you say is the perfect accompaniment to a macaron? Oh, okay. Well. A lot of people, um, actually I actually don't. Um, this is going to sound espresso with it. I think the, the difference, the macaroon, which I'm going to lot of people don't know it. So I've had a lot of people take my classes and be like, wait, they're chewy? Are they supposed to be chewy? And yes, they're supposed to have a little bit of a crunch on the outside and then be chewy on the center. And, um, people have experienced macarons in a lot of different, um, textures. Right. And that really depends on how the shop, um, what the filling So if you're making them results every time, right? You get the best experience, I honestly, they're so good when Um, and I love them like that. So I store them in the freezer Um, so that's another And I tell people to only keep to three days because they go Um, so if you've ever had a outside and then really, really, probably because they've been too long, right? Um, and I will eat them frozen. So I used to have a food tour in Uh, that was a sweets tour. And we went to a fabulous place actually closed down now, but opinion, uh, make the best Australia at the time. And, um, a little tip that Mercedes the owner there gave me was and gave the many people that came on the tour, uh, if you were going home and it was interstate, you were flying interstate or even overseas and buying them, uh, was to pop them in the freezer and have them the next day. So. And it refreshes them. Uh, and, uh, yeah, many people Many people used to go on the tour, have the macarons, and then go to the store via on their way to the airport to pick up more macarons just before they left. So good. I live in memoriam. This is where, uh, I'm based known for its memoriam. Macron. Oh. What's that? Uh, I don't know if you knew And, um. But it's interesting. It's not a macron like you macron like a macaroon. Mhm. It looks like a macaroon, but So if you took the coconut out of the macaroon and put almond in, that's what it would be like. It's a secret recipe. I don't know how it came about But then in research I found out that, uh, there's actually many different types of macarons depending on where you live in France. Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest one So the the old pattern, which is just the shells. So it's what they used to be before they came to Paris in the eighteen hundreds. And, um, it's, you know, still what you use as your base for your French macaron now, um, but it's just the cookies, and they actually pipe them on parchment paper. Um, and the olden days, they Hopefully not a fresh newspaper. I don't know, man. I bet you would like a macaron the bats, that's for sure. But yeah, it's just the cookie And then and the I think it was the eighteen fifties, it came to Paris and Ladurée decided to put a filling in between, um, because the Parisians wanted something fancy. So that's what we're kind of Speaking of Ladurée, uh, so many people's experience, um, although Bacharan in Paris is there wonderful store at, uh, an restaurant at the Champs-Elysees. What is your favorite macaron Pierre Hermé. Hands down I. He does the best. Uh, so the different flavors are They're very, very well done. Um, I mean, and they just they just do a really good job with everything. So, um, definitely go for a box something else, they have a four different vanilla. So that's kind of fun to I'm going to Paris tomorrow for the dentist, and now I need to get macarons and a little tart and possibly an ultra an ultra dentist appointment. Oh, what have you just done to Molly? Molly, you. If I hope you don't mind me Frenchman, is that correct? Yes. So tell me. You must have the inside What or when I should say when I would say probably a tea time. Um, or if they're like, oh do Afternoon. Yeah. So guts for everybody is French So it's at around four o'clock school, but it's just a little or they're great for gifting. So just like when, um, you know, people, tourists come in and they buy, you know, a box of Laduree macarons. They're usually bringing them course, or as a gift. And, um, yes, they are often Um, or, uh, for special So a birthday, an anniversary, Uh, you'll have, you know, a box different sizes, so, you know, flavors in one box. Um, so you can really kind of discover them all, and whoever's at your gathering can pick the flavor that appeals most to them. What's your favorite flavor in a I love chocolate, so just a And the reason why is because the the chocolate ganache really balances out the sweetness of the shells. So for me, that's my favorite. Um, almost. I mean, kind of describe it as brownie in terms of the texture. So that slight chewiness right richness and yeah, that's Or salted caramel for sure, but. Or both. Oh, both. Exactly. I wouldn't say no to any of Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Now, when you're making a important, but the flavor is not No. So when often I think that the shell is flavored and they a different color. And they think that, well, you put raspberry in it or something But no. Tell us, how do you get Yeah. So you're absolutely right. Traditionally the flavor just Um, so the shells are kind of flavor to you, right? With a different kind of texture Um, but that doesn't mean that putting flavor in the shells. Um, so oftentimes what I tell of the almond flour for a So like for example, for pistachio, I would change out twenty five percent of the almond flour with really finely ground pistachios. Um, I've done that with pecans. Uh, being from Texas, uh, I love And so I would do like a chocolate pecan version for Thanksgiving. And, um, that's the easiest way shells, but you can start changing it out for like graham But with that being said, um, to do, I always, always, always the basic shell recipe. You know, changing up the colors, how much you want and then really play around with the fillings. And once you really got those hardest part, then you can start there and maybe adding some Maybe we'll have to get into making an Aussie one with some macadamia nuts or something on my side. So fun with the color. Do you recommend powdered Is there anything that's better So if you have powdered food what you want to use because Um, but it also doesn't like So if you've ever made a meringue, there's always those warnings like make sure there's no egg yolk in your egg whites, right? So always use fresh egg whites Separate them when they're cold. And um, make sure you're using a No, you know, no fat and the And, um, when you're adding isn't the time to use a liquid oftentimes you're adding so much out, that it's adding too much can cause cracking and all sorts Whereas if you use a powder or a Gel is fine too. Um, then it's a more concentrated color and you're not really messing with that, um, really specific, um, you know, kind of formula for the shells there. So powdered food coloring, which worth it, especially if you're We are, and I think many of our Molly, as I mentioned before, but you do cooking classes both Is that right? You tell us a bit about that. Yes. So I've been doing a lot of and, um, with an ending. Well, I don't know, changing. Yes. Hopefully one day soon. Then I'll start doing, um, in-person classes here pretty soon. Um, my in-person classes are all private, so it's usually a close group of friends or a family that's coming in, or just a solo baker that really wants to learn more. Um, yeah. And they're really fun. Fabulous. I'll have to come up to the side We've been chatting. You have a fabulous meal there It's called the Moulin de So Moulin means. And they use flour. So their wheat comes from, um. Farms that are within. I think it's one hundred So it's very, very local. And they're using a combination modern equipment and, um. The result is, is quite And the bags themselves are Kind of a yellow gold color. There's the Sun King on there Which means it's royal. So what I need in my kitchen. Definitely some royal flour. Oh, yeah. If you'd like a little more fabulously delicious between episodes, then come join me on Instagram. I'm at Andrew Prior fabulously. That's where I share bite size French food history, fun facts, behind the scenes moments, and plenty of everyday life in France. It's the perfect little snack And if you prefer to watch the can find full audio episodes Same stories, same Just with my face attached. More food, more stories and more Come join the party. It's Trey Strobel. Molly Wilkinson, your book is Where can people buy it? It is? Yeah, it's sold worldwide. So wherever books are sold. Yeah. Great. So you're on the Amazon and the Exactly. Barnes and Noble, uh, all of I've always wanted to be on the Um, Molly Wilkinson, thank you for joining us on Fabulously Delicious. It's been a pleasure. And, uh, we've learned so much about yourself and about macarons. Yeah, well, hey, happy to be Thanks so much. Thank you. How fabulous is Molly Wilkinson? So many great tips there on as an infectious laugh. You've got to love the princess I hope to come and cook with you Thank you so much for listening to this first episode of Fabulously Delicious. I hope you subscribed next week. It's all about French bread with Katie Quinn I'm Andrew Pryor and whatever you do, do it Of course, here on Fabulously