Late-Night Talk: Bella Winton, Alec Dawson, Ella Harford: Barbarian Rule Galicia, Christian Greek Hagiography, Female Sexual Deviancy and Adultery in the Georgian Era, PhD Marathon and more

Link to the call for paper conference at Swansea University: https://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=CLASSICISTS;d26a3f17.2501

Submit your abstracts to either one of these emails: a.e.a.dawson@swansea.ac.uk & i.a.g.winton@swansea.ac.uk

Students and Graduates!

The first late-night talk with three PhDs of 2025 is here!

Alec Dawson is a PhD Candidate at Swansea University, whose thesis is on Late Antique Rule in Hispania and the Role of the Regnum Suevorum. Since then, Alec has presented papers at international conferences in Spain and the UK, including the renowned Celtic Conference in Classics. Alongside university teaching responsibilities, Alec also has published book reviews for the journal Plekos and jointly chair a departmental seminar series.

Bella Winton, a funded PhD candidate at Swansea University, specialises in Greek Hagiography from Christian Late Antiquity, focusing on their value as sophisticated literary narratives.

Ella Harford is a PhD student at Swansea University in history. Her thesis focuses on representations of sex and adultery amongst women in 18th century print culture.

Check out their social media platforms to network with them.

Alec: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alec-dawson-104b56287/

Bella: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabella-winton-487859174/

Ella: @emharford

Thank you all for tuning in, it's been a pleasure!

P.S. My deepest apologies for the external noise as the late-night talk was recorded inside of a library pod where the walls reduce a bit of the external noise. There were other pods where undergraduates were talking, hence the external noise. I did my best to reduce the noise at the best of my editing abilities. Yet, I hope that you have enjoyed this talk!

Students and Graduates!

This is a mid-roll from my late-night talk with Ilana Horwitz, PhD, about her book The Entrepreneurial Scholar. A New Mindset for Success in Academia and Beyond. Use the code IMH20 when buying her book at Princeton Univ Press

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Students and graduates,

Have a break from this session by hearing a late-night talk I had with Michael Gerharz, PhD, about the impact of communication in your PhD and in public.

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

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Chapters

• 3:36 PhD Lounge
• 26:09 Research Trips and Language Learning
• 34:18 Barbarian Settlement and Economic Divisions
• 46:40 Barbarian Influence and Local Identity
• 1:02:00 Narrative Strategies in Early Christianity
• 1:12:20 Egyptian Identity and Conflict Shift
• 1:16:19 Sexual Deviancy in 18th Century
• 1:28:03 Medieval Women
• 1:42:14 Ancient Apocalypse Conference and PhD Advice

Transcript

Speaker 1: 3:37

Hello students and graduates, welcome to PhD Lounge, the podcast in which PhDs have a drink and talk about their research topics. I'm your host, luiz, and we have the first late night talk with PhDs of 2025. I want to thank you for tuning in to the last late night solo show, where I talked about the issue of PhD productivity tools and hacks overwhelming your research and yourself. I stressed not only the problem of these tools and hacks, but also those that work well with you, according to your personality and whether they fit within your budget. Moreover, here are some updates about PhD Launch. While I said previously that I cannot mention about my future guest, who is a scholar from Toulon University and is launching a book to be released in the foreseeable future, I got an email from a publicist of Princeton University Press to not only tell me about that scholar, but also another one who is from Duke University in North Carolina and has also a book to be released. The publicist told me that this scholar from Duke is available for a future interview and I'm thinking of making an invitation to join the PhD Lounge in the future, preferably after I submit my dissertation, in order to have time to write up the scripted questions. I must say that it is a great opportunity to have both scholars, to increase my academic and industry network for future jobs not only in the UK but also overseas, and so I look forward for what's coming ahead to benefit PhD Launch.

Speaker 1: 5:25

After having these two interviews, as well as this one, that I'm going to introduce the following guests to you. They're all from Swansea University doing PhDs in history, but they're looking at different periods of history. One guest looks at Greek hagiography from Christian late antiquity and how it's a kind of sophisticated literature. That guest also talks about symbolic blackness and gender, using Mary of Egypt and Zosimas and Anthony as examples. If you're easily triggered by these topics, I recommend you to stop listening to the rest of the talk at any time. The second guest is talking about his PhD research on late antique rule in Hispania and the role of the regnum sueworum during the period when the Roman Empire was falling apart in the West and that the barbarians took over Galatia in modern-day northwest Spain is the main focus of his research.

Speaker 1: 6:33

The third and final guest studies contemporary history, focusing on the late 18th and the first three decades of the 19th century, on female sexual deviancy and adultery during the boom of printed materials and reporting in England, ie during the Industrial Revolution, which includes a comparative literary analysis between adultery and deviancy acts of elite and non-elite women of that time frame. As well as their research, they shared their PhD experience and advice for doing one, and took part in other related activities and a call for paper conference, which will happen between the 2nd and 4th of July at Swansea University and whose abstract submission is until the 28th of February. The conference is called Apocalypse is Nunc, apocalypse and Calamity in the Ancient Worlds. So, students and graduates, get yourselves a drink, have a seat and let's give a warm welcome to Bella Winton, alec Dawson and Ella Harford.

Speaker 1: 8:22

Thank you for accepting my invitation to join the PhD lunch, and we were previously talking about the AI. So, alec, can you give us a bit of that context that you were talking about, about AI and also about the Progress project, which is quite an exclusive thing here in Swansea University?

Speaker 2: 8:46

Yeah, so I'll start with Progress first. So Progress is the Department of History, heritage and Classics' PGR seminar series. It's chaired by myself and Louise Furze. Our series it's chaired by myself and Louise Furze, and every week we have different sessions which are talking about all different aspects of academia, both from a postgraduate view, but also from a sort of more generic academic view as well. Later this month we're going to be having a roundtable discussion on AI and academia and specifically sort of the areas that are causing problems but also benefits to the academic community as well and it seems quite like that many of the students that we've been talking about using the AI, they say, oh, you shouldn't use the AI, otherwise it's going to be plagiarism.

Speaker 1: 9:44

And I say, yeah, to an extent you're right, but you need to have some brains to use the AI and you gotta realize that. They say, for example, chachipt. They say on the bottom of the website, they say say this is a generative description, so it made my mistakes. I don't care, I don't know what are your thoughts on that? And just like a preview for the next seminar series, anything yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2: 10:15

So I think plagiarism is obviously a difficult topic to discuss, but I think, generally speaking, the way ai tends to work, at least the outcomes or whatever you, you input, sort of the whatever question you want to ask, in 99% of the time will probably be an original response, because obviously everyone asks a different question. But where the ai draws the information from, that's where plagiarism can occur. So obviously, if a undergraduate student wanted to use ai in his essay to uh, you know, answer a particularly, you know difficult question or something that he's got absolutely no idea about, um, then obviously that's going to be problematic because they're going to start getting you know, a-generated essay or something like that that potentially might draw on different articles or books or volumes that this undergraduate student might have never actually read before. But at the same time, some of the AI-generated essays and things like that have also been creating sources that don't exist as well to justify for things that the AI itself is arguing, which obviously creates a whole different range of problems in these situations.

Speaker 3: 11:35

Yeah, my sister's had some experience with that. She's a trainee clinical psychologist and people often look for references. Using AI is, I think, is valid as being like you know, can you show me some material that's related to this?

Speaker 1: 11:47

but then it also provides, um, something they call like frankenstein references, where they will just it will be like a random title with a random name, random publisher, so it just kind of sews together all sorts of completely unrelated articles into one title and then obviously you're like well, you clearly haven't actually checked any of it yeah, I do also think that it reminds us when we are where I can state from my personal experience in the mid to late 2000s, where we would sort of create our own not our own system of AI, but in a manual side, where so you have to do something brief, a brief search about cancer, and say, okay, let's do some cancer.

Speaker 1: 12:40

And then we didn't do, we didn't know what plagiarism was at the time, um, and so, okay, so I'm going to grab this source from this web page and I'm going for another source, one, and then from another, from another, and this was my manual ai at the time and say, okay, so he plagiarized, but since he doesn't know how to research yet, okay, I'm gonna give him a pass. So, and I think who's who nowadays with with ai and um? Now, gen b catches from everything, and I guess it's also a manipulation of the algorithm that does that. But I think as future academics, uh, we're gonna be, we're gonna outsmart them because, uh, because we all we do have also the, uh, we do have also the turn it in when we do our marking. So it's, it's, uh, it's an AI based itself yeah, something I've noticed in marking.

Speaker 3: 13:32

It is really, really obvious, when someone has used AI like to the extreme because it is, it just feels very we're just very auto-generated. It doesn't have any nuance, so, like it's, it's not quite there yet. I think maybe it will be in the future, but for now I think we're okay. Can you, can you?

Speaker 1: 13:48

give an example? Can you give us an example, since you're marking now um?

Speaker 3: 13:54

it's actually it's quite difficult to put into words. Um, obviously, the the year group that the essays I mark come in is first year undergraduate, so you expect a certain, a certain standard, and when you find that it is, it's almost like they're saying loads without saying anything. Um, so it's just all very kind of general vague comments that in another context would be absolutely fine and would be, you know, fine, but it doesn't have the attention to detail that you, that you get from actually when you actually analyze um the text. I can't put it into better words than that at the minute, but it's just like a sense that you get from when you read it's.

Speaker 1: 14:35

So in very brief we can put this is so annoying that I don't. This doesn't feel right to mark, so I'm doing a like a big zero it doesn't.

Speaker 3: 14:44

It doesn't have a personality. You often find it, it's just very yeah yeah, so, um yeah, so who'd like to?

Speaker 1: 14:55

who would be the first to sharing your journey before adventuring into your current PhD topics and what led you to choose to choose them? You choose.

Speaker 3: 15:12

Yes, you choose.

Speaker 1: 15:15

So, just very briefly, as my listeners know already, I've chosen to study ancient cities and their art and architecture in the middle east otherwise known as the near east in archaeological terms to trying to find the like, so sort of demographic, cultural demographics in terms of sharing, and also mingle them. But in my view it's not to create a sense of something new, as one of the post-colonial scholars who I reference a lot, he uses them, I'd say instead the continuation of all the cultures that were involved during their interaction, where they share one thing and then share the other one and they reproduce in their own context, in their own environment. And so the East, for me, was the main reason I chose it, because it was the place where many people interacted and made their trade, hence the cross-cultural interactions per se. So now that I'm done, who's the next?

Speaker 3: 16:30

I'll go Sure For me. I study Greek, late antique Christian hagiography, so saints' lives. I look at them as sophisticated literary narratives which hasn't been done in any kind of great detail. A lot of things have drawn me to it. I suppose I've always loved reading, writing, fiction books and things like that, so I've always been interested in how stories are written.

Speaker 3: 17:02

I went to a very kind of conservative Christian school. Um I didn't really fit in. I'm not really the conservative type um, but I've always and my kind of family background as well like my, my dad used to be a Christian, like evangelical Christian missionary um. But I'm also kind of ethnically Jewish and my mum was raised Irish kind of Roman Catholic, so I've had lots of kind of weird influences um and so kind of that, and then also kind of tied in with an interest in psychology because, like, the cult of Christianity is kind of interesting um. So all of those things have kind of come together um for me to then look at kind of the cult of saints and literature from that from that period in this kind of way.

Speaker 3: 22:20

My PhD basically looks at sex and adultery amongst women and how that's represented in a variety of print culture, specifically from the late 18th to the early 19th century, so that's late 1700s to the early 1800s. So I use lots of materials like novels, trials, prints, things like that and I guess it was the topic. It was kind of a springboard from my master's dissertation and my undergraduate. Like I always used to study sort of like elite women and very much focus on case studies. So I think when I was approaching my PhD topic I was looking for something to link that all together and a lot of that was like through the scandal in the press as well as like adultery.

Speaker 2: 23:02

So I think that's kind of what drew me to that topic so my phd focuses on fifth century ad spain, um and sort of uh governance in in sort of post-Roman states. So I specifically look at the people known as the Suevi and how they sort of took on the role of aspects of the Roman government in Spain in particular. And similarly to Ella, my current research springboarded off of my MA dissertation as well, where I looked at the ethnogenesis of the Swaby and also of another barbarian people known as the Vandals as well, and that's sort of where I've really gone on from.

Speaker 1: 24:02

So we do have different topics research topics with really got on from. So we do have different topics to research up with the two of you having a close time period, as you've told me previously, and spending more than a thousand years later.

Speaker 3: 24:19

Ella and I have similarities in that we look at women and gender. Alec and I have similarities in that it's both kind of late antique, but that's kind of it.

Speaker 1: 24:29

We can say that it's a bit of everything into a way, everything in common, basically. So we have exploring women and exploring identity. I also touch upon a bit of identity, but in the cultural sense and one of the things that you said about in one of your topics, that would include also your motives to travel abroad, right? So how was the experience for each of you going to on-site to explore something that is about your topic and what memories did you bring here and then trying to use them onto your thesis?

Speaker 3: 25:20

For me. I think it was really useful to go to greece, um, and look at orthodox greek churches, um, because I think obviously all of the uh like the events I write about, well, supposedly, you know, the narratives are dated between the second and seventh centuries, so it's obviously quite a quite a long time ago, um, and I think it can be difficult sometimes to really understand the physicality of religion at that point. It all feels a bit intangible. So for me, actually going to these places and looking at the churches and looking at the ruins and all the kind of artefacts that are left, it just really helped me to kind of contextualise my texts and kind of gave me new perspectives on things. I mean, I will always take an opportunity to go to Greece, so I'm very lucky.

Speaker 1: 26:10

Did you have to learn Greek while you were there?

Speaker 3: 26:14

Because I know, weirdly, modern Greek has a lot of similarities to ancient Greek. So I know ancient Greek. Obviously I don't speak it no one does but I was able to decode, I think, think, a lot of the modern Greeks. So by the time I'd, when I got back from excavating last uh, last spring, by the time I left, I was able to kind of pick apart people's sentences and kind of understand what was going on. Um, I have since been learning modern Greek because a lot of the um people who actually do the digging, the excavating, they don't speak English, they're all local to, so, like I excavating in Corinth, and they're all local to Corinth and so I'd like to be able to actually talk to them because they have so much knowledge and so much experience and at the minute I don't know what they're saying.

Speaker 1: 27:02

You couldn't bring Maria, the Greek Maria.

Speaker 3: 27:08

I'd love to bring Maria Oconomou, but unfortunately she has other plans. I don't know how.

Speaker 1: 27:16

About you, alec and Ella? Okay?

Speaker 3: 27:21

so I've done two main research trips. One was to the British library and the other one was to the lewis walpole library at yale university in america. Um, so my first trip to the rich library, that was very useful. I was looking at the trials for adultery there. Um, I just took like loads of photos and sort of sat. I had to sit where they could see me so I wasn't like cheating or trying to steal the books or anything. So yeah, that was really good.

Speaker 3: 27:49

My second trip to the British Library was actually not that long ago about a month ago now and that was really frustrating because they've since had a cyber attack so they're still only half kind of up and running. So a lot of their manuscripts collection aren't accessible yet online and you kind of have to go to like a lot of their manuscripts collection aren't accessible yet online and you kind of have to go to like member of staff there to see if you can access. So I only managed to access one trial for adultery document that time around, which was pretty annoying Because luckily they had their rare books like system up and running, which is good, but that was the only thing I could really access relating to my research. So, yeah, the my research trip to Yale University was way more useful. I accessed lots of like printed materials there which, um isn't necessarily available, okay, um. So it was like really cool, they had lots of like British collections and usually in America.

Speaker 1: 28:41

Um, that was going to be a question of mine, yeah, and I brushed my swans over there.

Speaker 3: 28:47

I think it was collated from this guy called Lewis Walpole who was a big collector of British art and satirical prints, so a lot of it has ended up there. Weird, it's a bit strange, but a lot of it is there. I guess Yale are quite rich and big universities as well, so they tend to buy a lot of the prints from here as well.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Oh great, that was really great. Yeah, I'm still waiting for Nigel to tell me when to go to Yale because also there's the Museum of Jewelry Ropers, where they were the main ones to excavate that Syrian city, and I'm still waiting on, so, no joke, when I get to go there and I want to see the artefacts and also submit an abstract for a paper.

Speaker 2: 29:36

So Alec, you were last but not least last but not least, last but not least, yeah, so I've done two and a bit of trips abroad. So the first one was a research trip to Santiago de Compostela in northwest Spain, grecia, and that was primarily for research. So I went to the university there and I'd been in contact with an archaeologist called José Carlos Sánchez Pardo, who is a specialist on sort of early medieval later taken, early medieval Christian archaeology, primarily churches and also their trade relations and things as well churches and also their trade relations and things as well. And yes, he was really helpful in sort of getting me access to the university itself but also to the library in particular, where there was a lot of sealed texts that are mostly in circulation in Spain and Portugal itself rather than outside of Europe. And then also at the end of that stay I was able to go to an archaeological site as well which I've just been wrapping up. It's one of the castras in that region as well.

Speaker 2: 30:54

So not far from the round stay. The second trip I did was for a conference in Madrid, so it was primarily just in Madrid itself, so it was at the Competencia University and then. So I didn't really get to see much else, but it was pretty much nice to fly for that, but at the end I was also able to go to Toledo as well, where we were able to go to another archaeological site called Los Hitos Los Hitos, and which was originally a Roman villa, but then, also during the Visigothic period, it became a governor's estate and a hunting lodge as well, before eventually becoming a mosque during the Leopold period as well.

Speaker 1: 31:38

So then, when you came back to Swansea, did you feel more Spanish or English?

Speaker 2: 31:47

I mean I definitely fit in with the Spanish culture more. I'm not really one for eating early, and Spanish do love eating after about 8am.

Speaker 1: 31:55

8am, 9am, yes, so yeah, same as in Portugal. We do have the two-hour gap during lunchtime. Yeah, unless they have the siesta with us.

Speaker 3: 32:05

So that's the thing I do miss siesta. Siesta is a good thing, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Did you get also to communicate in English?

Speaker 2: 32:16

more briefly, yeah, so for the first few days of the conference it was almost entirely in Spanish and I was speaking to people there in Spanish. But then after that point, that's when my Spanish failed me a little bit and I was beginning to struggle, and that's when they sort of I don't quite understand how they didn't recognise that I wasn't in Spanish very, very ginger, but yeah, they eventually clocked on that I don't quite understand how they didn't recognise that I wasn't a Spanish guy Very, very ginger, but yeah, they eventually clocked on that I wasn't. And, yeah, they were more than happy to speak to me in English because they knew I could speak Spanish. Basically.

Speaker 1: 32:55

Spain has a big flaw they don't learn English in school. Actually they do, but they get so accustomed to the dubbed films and series everything is dubbed there so to find something subtitled and obviously without subtitles in English, they have to stream. So Netflix, all those things so it's really hard for them. So they resort to private schools to learn, and there's a lot in Santiago, for example. They hire not just English people, but they also hire Eastern Europeans, mainly Czech and Polish people, to teach English there. From the time I was living there, and that was it interesting. It is interesting indeed, I thought. I thought they would mainly mainly native English speakers, but okay, so diversity matters then, yeah, so when, since we were your experience in in Spain and studying Roman Hispania, then we Now we're going to the first question Will be for you, and then so, it's not going to be the last, but not least, it won't be First of the top.

Speaker 1: 34:19

So now Just, really briefly, just Just tell us about what you mean by Lot and the Gantas, and what do they mean in the context of the topic that you're researching.

Speaker 2: 34:35

So the first paper I ever gave, which was at the conference in Madrid, was on the barbarian settlement in Spain, 411. So a few years prior to that, in 406, there were three barbarian peoples known as the Alan Suavian Vandals crossed the frozen Rhine on the 31st of December and basically for the next three years, managed to sort of work their way through Gaul and then eventually across the pyrenees in 409 um, and then sort of remained in spain for the next two years um, then, by 411, they decided that they wanted to settle there. And they didn't want to because they obviously this had been, uh, going on for five years now that they could sort of through the migration from across the Rhine and settle there. And we know this from the chronicle of the bishop known as Hydatius, and he recorded a lot of what went on in Spain through the 5th century. So at this point the barbarians barbarians decided that they wanted to settle, and the way they did this was that they drew lots, quite literally, sort of straws, you know. And who got what? Essentially, so, the Latin for this is SORS, sors, sor-s, source or sorte for individual, and so the paper that I was delivering was arguing for a reconsideration of these laws. So in the past a lot of scholars have either believed that it was just completely random, so it was botched, and that it was just basically a confused mass of let's just go here. And other people have said there was actually a government that decided to settle them and they were going to specifically give them in different parts of the Iberian Minotaur and, however, what my arguments were were on an economic basis. So I believe that, on the reasons, the arguments for basically that the barbarians instead decided to basically co-opt the sort of local officials known as the curiales, the basic local magistrates and civil servants, to help them to basically make an equal and divided settlement, and these lots were basically broken down into four different individual lots.

Speaker 2: 37:21

So you had which was on the basis of the provinces of Spain itself. So Spain as we know it now didn't exist at that point. So you had what was known as the Diocese de España, which is the Diocese of España, which included all of the modern Iberian Peninsula, but it also included the Balearic Islands, but also the. It also included Mauritania, across the Straits of the Bropter as well. So what is now Tangiers and that kind of area, but the extra areas of the, and so, but the extra areas to the Balearic Islands, but also sort of North Africa, those weren't included as part of the Islamocene.

Speaker 2: 38:11

So we're looking at the five individual provinces of Spain. So which is going to be in the northwest, which is Galicia, sort of a little bit larger than what is now modern Galicia. You have Lusitania, which is on the western coast, which takes up most of what is modern-day Portugal. You have Baia de Seca, in the south, which is sort of an expanded area of what most people would now consider Gibraltar, and then in the northeast you have Taracanensis, which is sort of a lot of modern-day Catalonia, but also the Basque region as well, and then finally, basically everywhere in between, was also Cartaginians, which is the largest province.

Speaker 2: 38:53

So Hydatius tells us that after they decided that they wanted to settle and take up the plough and the yoke, they wanted to turn to peace.

Speaker 2: 39:04

And the plough and the yoke they wanted to turn to peace, and in this case they divided themselves a lot and the lots were as follows the siding bundles, because they were split off between their has-been cousins.

Speaker 2: 39:22

They take Baitico, which was one lot. They had the Alans, who took both Carthaginianus and Lusitania, so almost half of the entire peninsula, and then you had both the Suevi and the Asden vandals crammed into Galicia, in the northwest of Spain as well, tarragonensis not really included in this. Why is that? So it's mainly because of the Roman presence. So there was, during this period, there was a lot of usurpations as well. So you had the usurper Constantine III, but you also had Jovinus as well. Between the two of them, as well as the problems with the Stilicho in Italy, and also Vale and Atof, and as well Goths, there was a lot going on in southern Gaul, which meant that there was a heavy Roman military presence, both from rebels but also from the legitimate government as well. So that's generally the reason why Taracansis was left alone until they had the rest of the military themselves.

Speaker 1: 40:21

So then it was a matter of military logistics then for the so-called barbarians to have those lots to prevent a Roman counter-attack, basically, or not, I do think in my own view, I don't think they really cared that much.

Speaker 2: 40:41

I don't think they considered that the Roman military presence in Spain itself was whereas originally there had been a quite heavy military presence was massively depleted by this point from the various civil wars.

Speaker 2: 40:57

So just having a small area around the Pyrenees meant that it was enough that they couldn't really deal with it themselves, and so they just decided to leave the rest of it and just go.

Speaker 2: 41:09

We'll stay here.

Speaker 2: 41:11

So my arguments were that basically the individual lots are based on economic reasons.

Speaker 2: 41:18

So Goliathia, through a lot of recent archaeological excavations, but also literary evidence as well there's a lot of recent archaeological excavations, but also literary evidence as well there's been a lot of suggestions that Varga was actually the most wealthy province of Spain because there was a significant mining and sort of extractions taken part in the area.

Speaker 2: 41:41

So there was a lot of gold mining and in fact, fact at one point under the flavian emperors, um, the gold mining um amounted up to, I think it was uh, five percent of the entire realm of ember has income just from one singular mine in galicia, um, so it just sort of goes to show how much wealth the province had. But then there was also a lot of trade because it was basically the last sort of port of call in Hispania for the Atlantic trade routes, so everything coming out of the Mediterranean and going up towards sort of Western France, towards Britain as well, and it basically went through glycogen as the final stop. In fact, in La Carana there is still a quite large lighthouse, which is one of the reasons why this Atlantic trade route was built.

Speaker 1: 42:31

Isn't that lighthouse the lighthouse of Hercules? Yes, that's the lighthouse. It is right, so it's completely restored as well.

Speaker 2: 42:41

Yeah, and that lighthouse itself was particularly made, basically just sort of to safeguard and see trade routes along the Atlantic. So I then argued that the Goliath was split into two different lots because you had two different barbarian peoples staying there. So you had the Suevi, who were then going to take up the Atlantic trade routes, so they had the Western area. And then you had the Aston Banners which were going to take the the Atlantic trade routes, so they had the western area. And then you had the Aztan vandals which were going to take the central areas, where all the money was Sure, then the Scythian vandals in the south, in Baetica. So Baetica was very rich as well. It had a lot of olive oil, a lot of grain, and in fact in 416, one of the reasons why the Goths ended up creating a treaty with Rome was because they were starving, because they were due to a blockade by the Magidonotum.

Speaker 2: 43:30

Constantius and the Asylum Vandals were selling grain to the Goths at extortion rates and basically just to capitalise on the fact that they were starving, which sort of just goes to show how much grain was being exported from Baitsgode At some point it was akin to the same amount of grain that was produced in the Nile but also in North Africa as well. That was why that particular was going to be one lot. Obviously, you had the control of those trade routes because you had the Strait of Gibraltar, the pillars of Hercules. Back then Having that area was considered strong enough economically to be one lot. And then, finally, you had Carthaginians and Lusitania. So Lusitania was also the capital of the diocese in Merida and so it also had a significant well, not significant, it had a good amount of mining as well to make it generally wealthy. But then Carstenius Carsteniensis, by this point, was it's a lot of knowledge I can see.

Speaker 2: 44:34

The province of Carsteniensis was relatively poor. There wasn't a lot of trade coming out of it, whereas in the past, going back to the Republican era, the Punic and sort of colonisation of that area, there had been a lot of trade. But since the atlantic trade was more important now, its wealth had dropped off. And so I've argued that the reason why the atlants received two provinces is basically to sort of make up for the economic deficit between the other three lots.

Speaker 3: 45:05

Essentially so, that's so how do you have all of that just in your head?

Speaker 1: 45:16

it seems like you just deposited every knowledge that you had on talking research and then just no, it's a great thought and saying that there was the well Spain. Now, during the Roman period, it was in the process of a societal transformation, and economic transformation as well, to organize themselves as a rather say singular community whatsoever, but within different tribes that were inhabiting all across modern Portugal and Spain, and one of the things that you said botched. The first thing that just came to my mind was say okay, so Alec is describing me a WWE match where there's a fatal four-way and the dioceses of each lot are the referees. And so I have to say it was this saying that okay, so they are Vincent Kennedy McMahon as the ruling of the whole thing and they are the referees. Did the diocese claim? Was this a deliberate botch move or something else?

Speaker 2: 46:40

No. So I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that by this point, because of the weakening Roman government, there was a lot of actually benefits and a lot of positive influence exerted by sort of barbarian peoples to the extent where the local provincials actually would have preferred barbarian rule, even if they were heretics or pagans or particularly nasty towards them in whatever way. They actually preferred that kind of rule over that of Roman government instead, because they had taxes and things like that. When Hydatius talks about the apocalypse basically appearing in Spain, when Hydatius talks about the apocalypse basically appearing in Spain, one of the main things he mentions was the tyrannical tax collector as part of the apocalypse, because apparently that was so significant.

Speaker 2: 47:31

I mean it's relatable so, yeah, I think there's a really good chunk of evidence to suggest that the local magistrates and civil servants were not.

Speaker 2: 47:57

They may have been coerced, but some of them may have been more than happy to fully support barbarian rule instead, and particularly by the time by the mid 5th century, happy to fully support barbarian rule instead.

Speaker 2: 48:06

Yes, and particularly by the time sort of by the mid-fifth century. You have lots of examples of sort of local Espana Romans supporting barbarian rule over that of the imperial government. In fact, when the Emperor Majorian wanted to sort of reconquer parts of Spain and also then launch a campaign against the Vandals in North Africa, there were specific Hispano-Romans that betrayed the imperial government and basically turned over various cities and even destroyed ships and things like that as well, transport ships to completely scum invasion. So, yeah, I think earlier scholars might have argued that it was botched and it was all just a sort of barbarian game you know, like, oh, what would be a fun way of allocating different parts of Spain. But I don't believe that. I think it was either through coercion or through agreement that I think that the locals in Spain did want to actually basically step away from that sort of reproaching rule.

Speaker 1: 49:23

I see the fact as well that the Western room was in a deep crisis and some of them they wanted a new change. What you're saying makes sense and the sense of okay, I'm going to make this coercive game to if you do not do something for me, I will cut. Let's just say the Vandals had the whole control of the Carthaginian grain right, so if the Romans will do this, then we do this.

Speaker 2: 49:57

We cut the grain supply across the whole empire, exactly, yeah and I think one of the biggest issues for the barbarian peoples in this period was whether or not they wanted to be enemies of Rome or whether they wanted to be allies of Rome, and that was a really big distinction, to the point where a lot of them wanted to sort of espouse legitimacy amongst themselves and amongst their own people by saying that, wanted to sort of espouse legitimacy amongst themselves and amongst their own people by saying that they could sort of as I've argued in a lot of my research take on the role of government.

Speaker 2: 50:31

Sure, so some of the stuff that I've been looking at more recently is how the Suevis sort of wanted to take on the military role. So where the original army of Spain, the Excerptus Hispanicus, had been destroyed and left or disbanded, they then stepped in to show we can do this, you don't need to worry about Spain, we'll sort of control it on your behalf instead. And so by doing that, they were able to sort of push back against other barbarian peoples as well, such as the Goths, when they were not particularly on favourable terms with the Romans, but then also against the Vandals as well. So in the 450s you have examples of the Vandals raiding the western coastline of Swabia and taking hostages because, basically, they've been getting too big for their boots it seems like there's a lot of mind games then at the time.

Speaker 1: 51:33

Absolutely so. One of the things that you also shared with me was that if there was a Swabian identity in Galicia, right, that if there was a Swabian identity in Galicia, right, and also there was some, I'd say, galaico-portuguese words and while at the time I was in Santiago I didn't notice about that they would speak Galician to me. I wouldn't mind because I would understand it, but I'm curious about the words. Some of those words, do you have some in memory?

Speaker 2: 52:09

Not off the top of my head. Most of them were actually related to nature, birds and things like that as well, and there are certain toponyms that are still sort of related to Swagelisa in areas of northern Portugal on the border with Galicia, but also in certain Galician towns they are. Some of the place names are. For example, there are I think there's something about 18 different towns across Galicia and northern portugal which are still called suavos well, I'm impressed now yeah and that's, and you know you'll be driving in and it'll.

Speaker 2: 52:52

You know the the sign that says you know welcome to whatever it just says suavos, which shows that you know these were sort of clear um settlements or where these people um had resided, uh, where maybe even because of something that happened. But yeah, there are still a lot of sort of examples of this coming across.

Speaker 1: 53:13

I don't know what happened there. You got it there, I know, that's fine yeah, but there are still.

Speaker 2: 53:22

I'll try and find something for you now. But yeah, there are. I'll try and find something for you now, but yeah, there are still certain place names that have words that are used.

Speaker 1: 53:34

I know exactly where it is. You're having a moment of silence, so, alex, you're about to share something with me.

Speaker 2: 53:39

So there are. I mean, forgive me for some terrible, that's good, but mehengra, mehengra. Yeah, it's a word for something called a titmouse, can you?

Speaker 1: 53:59

just just flip him and just show me, if I can, these ones, yeah, so some of them, a lot come from sort of proto-German.

Speaker 2: 54:07

Just flip him and just show me If I can. So a lot come from sort of proto-Germanic Masingra.

Speaker 3: 54:10

Masingra.

Speaker 2: 54:11

I completely butchered that.

Speaker 3: 54:13

To be fair, you're not Portuguese or Spanish.

Speaker 1: 54:17

Because also we do. In Northern Portugal we do have a second language. We speak Mirandese Okay, which have a second language. We speak Mirandese Okay, which is another. It's a local language. Yeah, it's not spoken in the south, just it's northern language exclusively. So it probably may be. I don't know. Mark can tell you, probably, about this language. It's basically a language that was spoken by the Portuguese from the north and they kept it until today and it's still taught in schools, so it probably comes from that too. So maybe a mix between Swahili language with Galician and Northern Portuguese and Mirandese.

Speaker 3: 55:08

I thought it looked familiar, it's the same as the Old Norse. I was like, yeah, it's the same as the Old Norse For 10 months, which is really weird.

Speaker 2: 55:18

But yeah, there's still quite, there is still a distinct identity. Actually, that picture there, that's in Akaranya, of the village of Svevos A village of Svevos we have Tras dos Montes, tras Monte.

Speaker 1: 55:37

So it really differs. It's really attached, attached some of the Galician and Portuguese language, specifically in the northern side. The dialects are really close to to between those two languages, so yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:57

I think over the course of the 5th and 6th century there was a new identity imprinted in the northwest of Peninsula which really contributed to the kingdom's continued survival. But it also meant that even after the annexation of the kingdom by the Visigoths in 505, it meant that there was a significant, a huge presence of this identity in the area that basically almost nothing changed. They went from having a Swabian king to just having a Visigothic governor. Other than that, there was no different change. A lot of the nobles were still in power. Two years later when the Visigothic king recreated and converted to Catholicism, the Swabian were already Catholic. So again, there was no change there at all. So there's.

Speaker 2: 57:04

It was a particularly unique situation for them, and I know there's in the 7th century as well, in the same way as we have in the UK.

Speaker 2: 57:18

You've have in the UK you've got the king, but then you've got the prince of Wales.

Speaker 2: 57:22

In Visigoth you had the king and then you had the prince of Galicia and they were the ones that were supposed to rule over the Galicians instead, which goes to show that this sort of Suavid Galician kingdom in the northwest was still like. This identity was still really like, apparently beyond you know, almost 100 years after its demise, and some recent scholarship has actually suggested that there was a huge political faction in the region as well, which actually almost decided who became kings in the Mesopotam, which actually almost decided, um, who became kings in the misogothic kingdom. They were sort of their king making faction essentially um, and because they were still so powerful, um, and there were a lot of rebellions and things that sort of went against them in that respect, um, but yeah, um, and then obviously, even beyond that period, after the sort of the four of us have got the kingdom in 711, you've got the kingdom of Asturias as well, and a lot of that sort of power base was from Galicia and from this sort of basically identity that was created there sorry, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 58:32

I'm being like, yeah, like, oh yes, oh yes, the kingdom of Asturias, like, whatever you like oh yes, oh yes.

Speaker 1: 58:40

The kingdom of the like. I think it's whatever you want. It was like, it seems just.

Speaker 1: 58:47

I mean, there's a huge entire like lecture and this is Alice like okay yeah, I forget, like I'm so this is also part of the of the podcast that I also wanted to establish, just like having some fun having some conversations about the daily life, specifically towards the our research topics as well, but having some a bit of a of a of a, a bit of a laugh too. So just thought it wasn't the only one bit of of a bit of laugh too.

Speaker 1: 59:20

So so now that Alec has given us a very brother and an amazing share with his research topic, and I'll just turn to to bella and explaining about her research topic, and I asked, I asked straight away what? What do you mean by symbolic blackness and how? And is it used in early christian literature and how does it interact with gender? And I can state as well. I can ask another another question, straightforward as well does it relate to the stories of anthony and mary of egypt, as you also said to me?

Speaker 3: 1:00:12

um, yeah, so, um, symbolic blackness is is just a, it's just a term that means colour symbolism. It basically means that the colour black means something in early Christian literature which in common, yeah, so I think quite a useful example is when you kind of, if you consider, like imperial Rome, so purple was a colour kind of only worn by the upper echelons of society and the imperial family. So the phrase taking the purple became synonymous with luxury and the taking of imperial power, and so it's just that same idea that applies to blackness, that if someone or something is described as black or burnt black, blackened, or something similar to that, there's certain connotations that come with it or something similar to that, there's certain connotations that come with it. In the context of Christian literature, quite a useful statement that you hear a lot, obviously, is that Jesus is the light. Yes, so it suggests that the opposite is something to be feared, something to be vanquished, and so you find in a lot of early Christian literature, demons and the devil are described as burnt black, blackened, or just egyptian and ethiopian.

Speaker 3: 1:01:24

Um, yeah, so that's yeah, if you take away all the kind of modern context, it's quite an interesting like kind of literary device. Um, I'll talk about how it interacts with gender. I'll be honest, there isn't a simple answer, but I think that drawing on two important texts, which I'm going to talk about, the ones you mentioned, antony the Great and Mary of Egypt because their narratives is a really good parallel showing how this blackness is used and the different ways that it's used. So the first text is the Life of Antony the Great, the father of desert asceticism, which is written in 356 CE by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria. Asceticism is a kind of extreme Christian devotion in which you deny earthly pleasures, so it's generally involves withdrawing from society. So obviously desert fathers, desert mothers, they literally went off into the desert and it also involves starvation, celibacy and bodily mortification.

Speaker 1: 1:02:32

Yeah, didn't St Jerome and St Augustine do the same?

Speaker 3: 1:02:37

Yeah, in kind in varying ways. Some of them went and did it for a bit and then came back. Quite a common form of bodily mortification is wearing a hair shirt. Priests and things would wear it underneath their vestments and it just means they'd be in constant discomfort. Um, that's quite a common one. Um, yeah, I, I don't get it myself personally, but that's fine um.

Speaker 3: 1:03:07

But so this uh, when anthony is is in the desert, he's praying. Um the devil takes a real interest in kind of testing him. Um, and a quote from it which kind of got me going on the whole phd, to be honest, is um the devil came next to Antony as a black boy, his appearance matching his mind. This is quite an obvious correlation between blackness and evil here. Like it's pretty explicit. So Antony as a man is presented as fighting the devil and kind of easily defeating him. The devil and kind of easily defeating him. Um, it's.

Speaker 3: 1:03:42

When you look at the life of mary of egypt, which is a seventh century uh text, there are several kind of narrative similarities to the life of anthony. So, um, a monk called zosimus, uh, he's, he's characterized in much the same way as anthony and um, part of my research is basically saying that I think that the narrative construction of the life of Mary is massively modelled on Antony the Great and that Zosimus is essentially a kind of literary successor to Antony. But so when Zosimus is wandering about in the desert, as they all do, he sees a creature, and this creature is described as having a shadowy illusion of a human body. It was burnt black by the scorching sun, um, and zosimus actually worries that it's a demonic phantom. And even the greek literally says demonic phantom, um, worried that it's come to, you know, deceive him, um, when it's actually that's. That's the first description of mary of egypt, uh, the reformed prostitute saint, who's actually one of the most highly venerated desert mothers in the Orthodox Church. So a large part of what I'm arguing in my thesis is that Mary comes to Zosimus much in the same way that the devil comes to Antony, and so you get this kind of the way that you see the way that blackness is used in this. In this sense it shows how it interacts with gender. So anthony, the man, is confronted by the devil, the black boy, but zosimus, the man, is confronted by mary, who is burnt black. So, and that's you know both.

Speaker 3: 1:05:12

Both of these texts were hugely popular. There's white, widely circulated, so many different translations, so many manuscripts, um, so to kind of ancient christians and ancient readers, that would not have gone unnoticed that that parallel um I'm obviously I'm still developing my ideas, but I think the way that zosmas doubts mary's holiness because of her blackness, I think speaks to a much wider kind of narrative strategy, um, in which blackness is implemented along kind of gendered lines to suggest that female holy figures are less spiritually credible than their male counterparts. And sometimes this is explicit, sometimes it's implicit, but um, it features in a lot of different ways across the five texts I'm using as part of my thesis. Was there another question in there? So I've gone over I can't remember.

Speaker 1: 1:06:02

So were they written mainly in greek or completely uh translated?

Speaker 3: 1:06:09

into latin. So, yeah, um, so the ones, all of the texts I look at, are written in greek. They're not necessarily originally written in greek, sure? Um? Antony, the great mary of egypt what other ones am I doing so many those? Those two are definitely written in greek. Um, I'm looking at a greek recension of, uh, the martyrdom of perpetua and felicitas, which is a much, much earlier text. That's quite an interesting one because that's originally written in latin and was then translated into g, which is quite unusual. But I'm looking at the much later.

Speaker 3: 1:06:43

The Latin version of that text I think is early third century. Ella, you're hungry? Yeah, the Perpetuum Philistus is early third century, but the Greek version is dated between the 9th and 11th centuries. Um, it's the same for pelagia of antioch. I'm looking at a 10th, 11th century greek version. The original was in greek but it's lost, so the earliest surviving version we have is in syriac. I don't know, no one knows this greek version. I'm looking at which version was used to translate into greek. It might have been the original and it's been revised, or it might have been Syriac, or it might have been Latin. I don't know, no one knows. So I'm just going to have to.

Speaker 1: 1:07:27

So might have been rewritten into a biased viewpoint.

Speaker 3: 1:07:32

Yeah, I mean. So the guy who actually wrote this particular narrative is literally called Simeon Metaphrastes, which is literally Simeon metaphrastes, which is literally simeon the reviser, um, so he has massively condensed it and altered it, um, so that's lots and lots of detective work for me, um, but yeah, I am looking for greek, kind of greek, and looking at it in in that respect, so it's really interesting to reading those, reading those words and now you sharing your research.

Speaker 1: 1:08:02

It kind of differs about the linguistic view, but also it's sort of a target to make a difference between genders, genders. So from what I understood, we say that Zosimas gets received by Mary because Mary got blackburned. Then there's probably a violent attack towards the female nature, whereas the other side, whereas the other side of in Anthony's tale, the Anthony's story, sorry, it seems less, it seems quite more balanced, intuitive into portraying something in him differently than yeah, so the kind of use of blackness is just kind of one of the um, I think, narrative strategies that are used to portray women and in a certain way.

Speaker 3: 1:09:07

But you often find that the way that, say, men experience um temptation is very, very different to how women experience it, um, but it also it depends on something I'm looking at is um. So, for example, pelagia of antioch is a, is a transvestite, nun, basically, um, so she, she's a, she's a the first among city harlots in in antioch, um, and after she kind of sees, sees the light, um, she takes off her kind of finery, dresses in a tattered rag and then retreats to the mount of olives and goes under pelagios. And something I'm looking at with with her story is that she dresses in in a male monastic habit and she goes by pelagios and her experience of temptation is very similar to that of male saints, and so it's like a sliding scale and there is no one narrative that sticks exactly within all the same boxes. But I think the use of blackness is a really useful way to pinpoint certain parts.

Speaker 1: 1:10:18

I think so, maybe, or perhaps a kind of pinpoint certain parts? Hmm, I think so, maybe, or perhaps a kind of a religious excuse to point fingers, okay, because they're black, but specifically from Egypt and Ethiopia, yeah, so I wonder why, if that was an obsession for the demonic in behavior in Christianityian christianity?

Speaker 3: 1:10:42

yeah, so I've. I've thought about this a lot because this is something that is pre-christian as well. You get, you get these kind of um like herodotus, and also in um heliodorus as well, in the ethiopian story, um, again, it's one of those things where I don't know the definitive answer, but I think there's certainly some factors, and I think part of it is that certainly before the rise of monasticism, which obviously originated in Egypt, you had the same kind of language used and Egyptian and Ethiopian were often quite interchangeable in these early texts. I think part of that is just because ancient geographers actually really struggled to get to Ethiopia and there's actually very few accounts of its topography or its culture. I think due to this it kind of took on these mystical properties and became like a fertile ground for literary imagination. So the outskirts or at the edge of the known world have always been a space where kind of strange creatures and cultures can kind of spawn.

Speaker 1: 1:11:44

It's got much more uh yeah, does that relate to the fact, if they're trying to evangelize Ethiopia and Egypt? Um what do you mean exactly? So in trying to I'm not sure if they wanted to bring Christianity over to Egypt and to Ethiopia and trying to Christianize both of the lands, so I wonder if that also has some certain influence.

Speaker 3: 1:12:17

Yeah, it might do. I think, certainly for the case of egypt. Again, this before before monasticism anyway, um, I think you know egypt was known for its kind of powerful and respected healers, um, and then, just in general, its culture was really highly revered in antiquity. Its gods are even more ancient and you know their pantheon of gods were worshipped outside of egypt as well. Um, but I think after, after the rise of fanaticism in egypt, you found that the egyptian authors were using the same kind of invective language against ethiopians that had been used against both of them, so they were kind of trying to separate themselves almost, um, and so, yeah, the kind of stereotype of an egyptian changed in that kind of trying to separate themselves almost. And so, yeah, the kind of stereotype of an Egyptian changed in the 500 years after Christ that it came to Egypt.

Speaker 1: 1:13:06

So was there? So essentially there was a conflict between Egypt and Ethiopia then I wouldn't say it was like an overt one.

Speaker 3: 1:13:14

This is, but I consent. I mean this is something that I think it might not be correct, but I can sense. I mean this is something that I think it might not be correct, but something that I've noticed in the earlier texts I study and the later texts is that there are certain kind of linguistic elements, that kind of point towards Egyptian authors, kind of very, very subtly shifting the way that they use language and separating themselves from the kind of previous um characterization.

Speaker 1: 1:13:42

I suppose so in the end we it is still an idea trying to develop and it's incredibly complicated but it is trying to say to the fact that for the listeners who are devoted Christians and have some field of background in theology, then it really resonates with what they, with their teachings, and I think that there would be a great way to showcase a different perspective of that they have, showcase a different perspective of that they have. There's an equal ground towards the literary interpretation yeah, absolutely, of both anthony and and maria, right? I don't see, don't see any reason whatsoever to make such a difference of symbolic blackness. What's up, after all, it's a figurative term.

Speaker 3: 1:14:38

Yeah, exactly, it's just a literary construct in this literary construct?

Speaker 3: 1:14:44

yeah, any archaeological evidence also you touched on, besides the literature to be honest, I mean very, very briefly, but I think because I'm doing five texts from well, there's North Africa, antioch and Greece. That's quite a lot to cover, so I'm trying not to give myself an aneurysm by drawing on too much. I look at archaeological and more physical evidence more for my own. Will be there any trips to North Africa in the future? I would love to. But To Egypt, right, I would. Yeah, there's the monastery in Mount Sinai and they have fragments and all sorts, but I would have to go in a group. Unfortunately it's not the safest place to travel.

Speaker 3: 1:15:44

Um, as a yeah, which is a shame, because I'd love to go um, but yeah, at some point it's on my, it's on my bucket list. Yeah, so one one day, but I probably should finish my phd first I think we have all plans to to go somewhere.

Speaker 1: 1:15:58

And then you know the first PhD. First PhD, yeah, Maybe just going into a postdoc or whatsoever? Yeah, I don't know, so no laugh but not please. So Ella. Sexual deviancy in the 18th and early 19th. Sexual deviancy in the 18th and early 19th. Why the? What message the theatrical works and the theatrical works in literature also they wanted to portray about sexual deviancy? How would, in other words, how sexual deviancy was practiced during this time? Good questions.

Speaker 3: 1:16:43

There were kind of different representations of sexual deviancy in different types of texts, so I'm only defining sexual deviancy as adultery in this instance and there were also some cases of varsity or illegitimacy. So it's quite interesting because one of the novels I'm looking at is jane austin's man's for the park. That was published in 1814. So two of the characters in that elope as an adulterous couple. Basically it's maria rushworth. At the end um elopes with mr henry crawford and it's a big scandal.

Speaker 3: 1:17:14

So essentially both, like novels and plays, are very disapproving of sexual deviancy and adultery and sort of use it as a warning to young women or their readers to say don't do it, basically. But it's quite interesting because they portray it in different ways, warning um. One of the plays I'm studying is called um a school for scandal by um henry, um, no, richard brinsley, sheridan, sorry, published in 1777 and it's very much like a comedy of elite manners, which is something that's I wouldn't say like unusual for the time, but it's something that's quite different. So it very much mocks the elite people for their manners, especially through their names.

Speaker 3: 1:18:01

So you have characters like lady sneer well, for example and like lady teasel, which really kind of like takes the mick out of the upper classes and how they behave. Because adultery was generally perceived to be rife amongst the upper classes and like people were worried that that would cause anxiety amongst the mass population because they people would worried that that would cause anxiety amongst the mass population because they people would worry that that's what like they would aspire to do. Then like they would start committing adultery all over the place.

Speaker 1: 1:18:25

So yeah, that was a big worry so does it differ from elite and non-elite yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 1:18:32

Um, well, one of the main differences is that we don't know a lot about non-elite adultery apart from in trials. It's like a lot harder to access because a lot of these elite women had very much like a celebrity status, a little bit like today's celebrities, um, where they have better access to like print culture, you know. It would be more like reporters would report on any scandals and things like that. So it would differ, um, in the sense that, yeah, so the non-elite women I'm looking at, for example, I have to access through varsity examinations, like more of poor people who would be illiterate, not able to read or write, and the result of their sexual demons would often be an illegitimate child. So that would be quite different to the media frenzy, I guess, surrounding the elite women who experienced adultery, and often elite women. They had access to lots of money so their husbands could send them away to give birth to an illegitimate child abroad, for example. That was quite popular, a big thing that would happen.

Speaker 1: 1:19:41

I say popular, that's probably the wrong word but that was sort of like a done thing.

Speaker 3: 1:19:44

You know we can't really know how popular it was.

Speaker 1: 1:19:49

I do and we're touching upon this. I finished yesterday watching the Ridley Scott's Napoleon film and, obviously, historical inaccuracies aside, I was watching that Napoleon was trying to have a son and head to the throne through Josephine, and I have seen some of the sexual acts. It was more of like rehearsed things and programmed in a certain sense, and Napoleon was having a problem if you don't give me a fucking child, I will slit your throat. So they had to resort to an elite teenager from the elite groups. Well, he actually got a head to the throne, napoleon II. But seeing from also the unknown perspective, it goes all the way to the throne and pull in the second. But uh, seeing from also the unknowing perspective, it goes all the way to the same. Where they just change is okay, but that disgraceful one doesn't have royal blood. I do have the blue blood, but it goes all the same.

Speaker 3: 1:20:54

Yeah, yeah, no, that that's a really good point actually, because there was a lot of anxiety around illegitimacy, definitely in the early modern period. So some arguments by historians is that during the 18th century there was a lot more sort of sexual freedom or liberation of people, and then, I think, a lot. I think a well-known thing is that during the Victorian era sexual morals became a lot str. I think a well-known thing is that during the victorian era sexual morals became a lot stricter and tighter, um, mainly due to the influence of queen victoria, um, but yeah, there was definitely a lot of public anxiety, I think, around like children being legitimate, especially amongst elite people and elite husbands in particular. Like there was a lot of anxiety that they wanted their sons who would inherit their property to be like, definitely their son, and there's very much sort of like, I guess. Gender disparity what's the word I'm going to put the like the gender double. No, not that one, um, it'll come back to me, but the double standard, that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:22:07

I got the end but yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:22:12

So in the sense that men were able to go off and have sex with whoever they wanted, whereas that wasn't the case for women at all, they expected to remain. There was definitely an expectation on elite women to to go off and have sex with whoever they wanted, whereas that wasn't the case for women at all. They expected to remain. There was definitely an expectation on elite women to like remain faithful to their husbands. So when they strayed out of that boundary or sort of like, crossed that like invisible line, I guess that was then perceived as quite scandalous and not the dumb thing to do at all, so scandalous to one side, and then not scandalous to do at all.

Speaker 1: 1:22:39

So scandalous to one side and then not scandalous to another, then Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 1:22:43

Yeah, yeah, definitely I think so. It's the same in the imperial period as well. It's the same in the imperial period. Yeah, it hasn't didn't change at all in like what 1500 years. It's crazy how like, yeah, the whole values of that system hasn't changed really much throughout history. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:23:01

But I wonder as well if the practice of I not botched the word, so the practice of sexual deviancy or adultery, as we say, and then from non-elite women to have illegitimate childs, wasn't the fact also that at this time of the period was the industrial revolution and in order to have a massive production of, of industry materials, was that practice also some sort of deliberate practice in order to grow the population of England and maybe Wales and Scotland as well, to continue the mass production of the Industrial Revolution?

Speaker 3: 1:24:03

I don't necessarily think so. I think the Industrial Revolution was sort of like also quite separate in the sense that it was more so to do with the production of goods and output internationally improving Britain's trade links, for example, with the colonies. That was quite a big time for colony globalisation and things like that, britain expanding its empire.

Speaker 1: 1:24:32

Well, I wonder what it means to be Sorry Ella. I wonder because during the Industrial Revolution was a massive increase of child labour, so I want to know what you can take from that.

Speaker 3: 1:24:43

Yeah, so something that became quite popular during the Industrial Revolution was the workhouse, and a lot of the time poor women who had illegitimate children, who wouldn't be able to afford to care for them, would put them into sort of like I guess, an 18th century version of the care system where they would be put into workhouses to sort of, I guess in their keep, in inverted commas um, I mean, I could be wrong, but that I think there was definitely a lot of mistreatment.

Speaker 2: 1:25:10

I was about to say I remember conditions were very poor.

Speaker 3: 1:25:14

Very, very, very briefly remember something from like year nine history where we learned about kids getting like in the in the cotton, like the weave, like the looms and stuff and they'd be sent to pick, like to get all the spares because their heads were valuable and they were just small so they could like crawl in inside the machines.

Speaker 3: 1:25:33

So I know like I think that is right like a lot of children like died because, yeah, that's definitely correct. There's a really good drama actually on channel 4 that used to be on for the mill. That was a really good depiction of like how children or child labor was used in the workhouse and it's really brutal how some children would like eventually have to have their arms amputated, for example, when they get injured in the workhouse and like I guess the four men or the people who'd be in charge of seeing the children just wouldn't, they didn't care at all and I think there was definitely a quite high mortality rate in some workhouses as well, especially amongst children. But yeah, thankfully the elite children won't have to deal with that. There'll be somewhere in front, there'll be. It would be somewhere in Philly, definitely a different kettle fish yeah but it's.

Speaker 1: 1:26:22

It's really interesting that, speaking about the topic, this topic that you were researching, and also seeing from a non-elite perspective, it's quite a challenge to do that because there's not, there's a lack of sources, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely, I mean because there's a lack of sources, right, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3: 1:26:40

I mean, that's kind of part of the reason why you guys I stayed away from the medieval and classical period because there was a complete lack of sources. Yeah, sources are really annoying. I did a lot of medieval history in undergraduate and I found it really hard just trying to focus on one source material for like an entire essay just trying to like round it, ale for an entire essay just trying to round it. Alec knows all about that, don't you with your one source?

Speaker 1: 1:27:06

Yeah, how is it going? It's an amazing good show.

Speaker 3: 1:27:10

So, yeah, in my period, the early modern period, there's definitely a lot more sources than in the medieval or antiquity, for example, but in my case it's. Yeah, it is definitely a challenge trying to track these, like more working class women or middling women who weren't necessarily as visible in print culture, so I have to kind of try and think outside the box of ways to access these materials, for example. It's interesting how that trend hasn't really changed, though, because it's the same in in, like ancient culture yeah it's only the you and you.

Speaker 3: 1:27:43

But we have loads of sources about, say, like kind of um, gender in in family and family structures from from the imperial period, but it's all about elite women and there's very, very little about like lower class women, um, and all the stuff that does exist is very, very biased because obviously it's written by elite roman males. So you just, yeah, so it's a bit on topic. But I went to an exhibition british library on medieval women. It's brilliant. I highly recommend people to go, but a lot of it was focused on elite women or nuns who were in monasteries and that's all the stereotypes.

Speaker 3: 1:28:16

Yeah, exactly the medieval stereotypes I think of, and nothing featuring about the more ordinary women who made up the massive british population. I think, yeah, it's very so.

Speaker 2: 1:28:27

Yeah, it's just crazy how not a lot of it is lost time, I guess, or lost in history I think it's quite interesting when, um, even the people who do get sort of spoken about in the records like if they come from a humble background, that's what that's, generally speaking, that's what we know they're like oh yeah, they came from nothing. Okay, cool, do you want?

Speaker 1: 1:28:52

to give us some detail. What's the?

Speaker 2: 1:28:55

detail exactly. Yeah, there's plenty of you know people who end up in the high places, but because they came from somewhere else that's not really talked about, it's almost just like a little bit of it's almost like a narrative trope, doesn't? It. It's like oh you came from nothing.

Speaker 3: 1:29:12

They came from nothing and it's like, actually I'd quite like to know about the nothing, please.

Speaker 1: 1:29:18

That tells a bit then. So and it's actually funny because uh bell said that is literally the nothing change in general and that that also does. That also applies to of what we experience, what we are seeing on social media nowadays, with this whole thing of the manosphere. It's a hatred topic and I deeply agree with you. But I was interested if there's any parallel with adultery back in this time to nowadays.

Speaker 3: 1:30:05

It's really interesting. You ask that because I actually see lots of parallels and comparisons between today and my period that I'm studying. I often think about people like the royal family now and the royal women in that, like kate middleton, um, like camilla, who's now the current queen, and megan markle. They're all different, very like different royal figures, I guess in today's modern world and they sure that's kind of very much the same to some of the elite women I'm studying from the 1700s. So there was one really famous well, I wouldn't say famous, relatively well-known elite woman called Lady Seymour Wisley who commenced adultery with her husband richard woosley, finally sued her. His best friend called richard um in in 1782, I believe. Um and that sort of seymour was very much vilified in the press and depicted as somebody who was very provocative, and I think a lot of that is kind of also quite kind of similar to what happens today to women like megan markle and also like, for example, did you guys see last night um with the grammys back this year? See through nude dress of um kanye west's wife I can't remember her name, um, bianca something, yeah we're not exactly up to date with her but, no

Speaker 3: 1:31:48

there was like a big backlash about that um, and they were apparently kicked out of the Grammys, um, because of her nude dress and basically showing up naked um. So yeah, I see a lot of parallels between then and now and how women are portrayed, I guess, in the media. It's kind of quite funny how things started off in the early modern period as today's sort of current like mass media culture that we call it, yes, and it's now kind of snowballed with all the current technology of social media into this big does seem to be this like extremes. So it's one.

Speaker 3: 1:32:29

One of my, one of my chapters is about um. It's essentially being from like a warning for others to being like a paragon of virtue, and there doesn't seem to be much of an in-between. And, um, I talk about how, um like prostitute saints, so like mary of egypt and pelagia, they kind of doubly defy, uh, late antique ideals of femininity because they don't have virginal girlhoods, um, because they're being prostitutes, um, and then, instead of settling down and getting married, they then become celibate um, and it's certainly with like female saints. Anyway, it's often that they come from they. They either come from the absolute depths of depravity, like mary of egypt, who just runs away at the age of 12 to become a prostitute in alexandria, doesn't even charge like, refuses to take payment, she just loves it.

Speaker 3: 1:33:18

Basically, literally, and it seems quite a hobby the way you were expressing it, but that's the thing she refuses and she makes a big deal about the fact that she doesn't take payment for it and that you know she corrupts men left, right and centre, and you know the sea should swallow her whole for the depths of her sin. And she kind of goes from being that to then being almost like neutralized completely. Um, even down to the greek describing her doesn't actually ever use feminine uh participles, it's always masculine or neuter, so it's almost like her femininity is completely erased yeah and so it's kind of interesting that it's.

Speaker 3: 1:34:04

It's either they're you know, they're the godly, saintly perfect woman, as kind of indicated by the patriarchy, or they're basically just whores. Yeah, and it doesn't seem to be any kind of middle ground.

Speaker 1: 1:34:17

Yeah, and I agree with you and I think this it will be really hard for men and women to reach a middle ground on these sort of things, because there's no specific answer for that and we will always get debates about this thing, many of them unnecessary, because we still I don't know how long have we been on this earth, without counting CE just saying like what, too long, too long. Right, so we're still learning on this process and what we could say, okay, the modern archetype of the simple, the nice guy, and we're sitting around this. You know, I know they're quite heavy, heavy, heavy, uh, heavy words to describe it.

Speaker 3: 1:35:13

But yeah, it's unfortunate the way it is and we just don't seem to get it right how we can behave towards other people in the sense, and so we resort to the most deepest and preposterous acts of as, as if we were in acts of desperation yeah, I think a lot of the time, certainly with the something that really really something really really tickles me about, about the manosphere, is that, um, you often find with these kind of, um, hyper, kind of masculine spaces whatever they think masculinity is, um, they often draw on like Greeks and Romans and I'm like, do you realize that they were like the gayest people around?

Speaker 3: 1:35:58

It was so much more fluid than they think it is. And I think people may I mean it's difficult for me to say because obviously, like I study gender in the ancient world so I'm always very aware of how fluid everything is and that it's not it's not black and white ever very aware of how fluid everything is and that it's not, as it's not black and white ever. Yeah, um, and I think most people forget actually just how complex it is and it's not as simple as this. This is what it means to be a man, this is what it means to be this like it's. Those things differ on culture, time periods, and it's so much more complicated than people anticipate it's sort of more of a marketing thing.

Speaker 1: 1:36:31

And also look at, look at the example of these greek greek statues, these people, these people, how they were represented, how they were in asian greece. Well, in a sense that would be masculine, uh, emasculated um and with with great physicality in asian greece, and r, but obviously that has a different symbolism around those statues.

Speaker 3: 1:36:54

Yeah, like what it means to be masculine in, say, imperial Rome in that period, what it means to be masculine somewhere else, say like the Near East, could be completely different, completely different.

Speaker 1: 1:37:08

And we've seen also. Okay, so we're going to see these big giant, bulky Greek as because they were. Yeah, I think, yeah, and we've seen also. Okay, so we're going to see these big giant, bulky Greek as because they were. They were divine representations. If we go just to the, to the, they are also wildly represented, but they are less, less represented in in, in the, in nowadays, modern culture. There was also the depiction of boys as well in ancient Greece and Rome, but they are not really shown on social media and the internet in general. But they exist and that's what's the representation. That's what is a true representation of a Greek individual, a Roman individual was yeah, exactly till it reaches of a Greek individual, a Roman individual what? Yeah, exactly Until it reaches its adult stage.

Speaker 3: 1:37:55

Yeah, it's all very grey and that can be stressful, which is fair because you know we're human beings, we like to categorise and understand things and sometimes it's never that simple.

Speaker 1: 1:38:06

But either way, I think, ella, it's an amazing topic and I'm just glad that you brought this.

Speaker 1: 1:38:12

Either way, I think it's an amazing topic and thank you so much glad that you brought this and also trying to draw a parallel of the difference of sexual deviancy of that time to what comes nowadays, even though the generality of all this of this practice comes also to today, but I don't know if it is more violent or balanced violence, but it seems more that with the internet and social media, that there is more constant attacks targeting if you don't do this, if you are this and you act this like this.

Speaker 3: 1:38:52

Are there any women in your sources?

Speaker 2: 1:38:53

Alec yeah yeah, I was thinking about this as you were talking, because, although a lot of the sort of historical characters and things that I look at are almost exclusively men, one of the recent names is I mentioned that in the 450s, the Vandals raided the coast of Galicia and it took cop captives.

Speaker 2: 1:39:27

And recently, in the last 20 years, we found a marble sarcophagus in North Africa, where not too far from the capital, which was of a lady called Ermengondis, and this lady was a Suavik, most likely a Suavik noble, and this has been linked to the raids on the coast by the Vandals, and it seems that she may have been captured as a child and brought back to the Vandal kingdom and she was then most likely forced to marry a Vandal noble as well.

Speaker 2: 1:40:05

However, this sarcophagus was dedicated to her, not to her husband, and he was then clearly buried alongside her much later on, and the fact that he even existed was just tacked on to the sort of the actual inscription at the end. It's entirely about her when she died and how old she was. Oh yeah, she was and oh yeah, she was married to this guy, and it's it's all about her, and it's it's fascinating that this sarcophagus was basically dedicated to someone who was kidnapped as a child, forced to marry a local noble, and then somehow she's managed to basically pull it off and like, yeah, it's a little funny that is finding.

Speaker 3: 1:40:50

And then somehow she's managed to basically pull it off and like, yeah, it's a little funny, that is finding a silver lining out of a bad situation.

Speaker 2: 1:40:59

I think it goes to show that for me personally, it's also the only sort of voice I have of that normal person, because I don't have any of those voices either, and the closest you get is, you know, from inscriptions saying you know, I died here, or I died here, or someone dragged someone here did she have a lot of money then, or not really, she was just an ordinary, let's just say, with a marble sarcophagus with a marble sarcophagus, that sort of.

Speaker 2: 1:41:23

Generally you'd think that there was a lot of money to do with that. But other than that we don't know. We know that she was a Catholic, which is interesting because so the raids were during the 450s, so the, the king at the time, was the first barbarian Catholic monarch as well. So it potentially means that she was because the Vandals were Aryan Christians, which is a sort of heretical belief. So it means that she was because the Vandals were Aryan Christians, which is a sort of heretical belief. So it means that she was clearly brought up as a Catholic and then still managed to retain that Catholicism well beyond her captivity as well, and then also she retained her identity. She's described explicitly as a slave in the inscription on her scarcophagus.

Speaker 3: 1:42:14

So do you know what age she was kidnapped? No, because that would be really interesting. I wondered, like for her to retain that identity. It depends how young she is, I suppose.

Speaker 2: 1:42:24

So we could probably work. No, I think we could probably do know how old she was. She was 47 when she died and so I think 37, so I think she must have been about 12.

Speaker 3: 1:42:41

I'd say old enough to remember her former life and still kind of have all that. Life expectancy was a lot shorter 37's, pretty good, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:42:53

I believe the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, 4-5-2-4-5-3, so it's about 25 years. So she was in about 12 done. Also it's in Latin as well, short description, so it just so clearly means that she was either hired someone to do it for her or the fact that she was able to. Given that she had all of this specifically inscribed, you know potentially also that she was educated. That's so interesting. There's a lot to say just from this one sarcophagus and, if I sort of fall in the roles of gender norms, but also about elites as well.

Speaker 3: 1:43:47

Did the girl keep a diary?

Speaker 1: 1:43:48

come on, come on it's just like the whole.

Speaker 2: 1:43:54

It's a whole life narrative that was inscribed straight on I think she had a pretty dramatic life, yeah but I mean, but then at the same time, you know, it's almost like something from, like a story from your period. It's almost like something from like a, from like a. You know a story from you know some of your period, you know because it's kidnapped, forced to marry someone. Clearly, you know, maybe it was potentially a happy marriage because she seems quite important that's the thing like it's.

Speaker 3: 1:44:23

It's traumatic in our modern standards, but back then that was fairly. You know, women were forced to marry whoever. Basically it was quite normal. Yeah, it was culturally normal. But yeah, dan, it's a shame there's nothing more about her, because she sounds like a character.

Speaker 2: 1:44:37

Yeah, no, she's a really, really interesting person and hopefully, you know, there may be some more archaeological evidence come out of it.

Speaker 1: 1:44:47

but yeah, yeah, dan out of it. But yeah, yeah done. So you were talking about the apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic, apocalyptic. But it's not live yet, no, so what is about it? Then why the word Apocalypse, by the way?

Speaker 2: 1:45:16

So the title of the conference is Apocalypse and Calamity in the Ancient World. It's being hosted here at Swansea University In July. In July, yes, in the first week of July. In July, yes, in the first week of July and the idea is that it's a very broad conference, so we've got panels from all different areas of classical research.

Speaker 3: 1:45:45

From archaic to late antique.

Speaker 2: 1:45:47

So we wanted to make it as broad as possible so we get as many people to come along, yeah, and then there's a lot to talk about with the apocalypse, because it's not just physical apocalypse as well. So one of the panels is the destruction of identity and you know, the ideas of apocalypse are so widespread in both, in all different parts of culture. I think it some to. The ideas of apocalypse are so widespread in both, in all different parts of culture, I think it some to a certain extent people don't even recognize it because it's you know, we talk about it, you know, even our language is kind of so. Yeah, I mean, I mentioned earlier things like the tyrannical taxidermy.

Speaker 3: 1:46:27

Please do your paper on tyrannical taxidermy.

Speaker 2: 1:46:29

please do your paper, but it's something that is. It's funny to us because we can relate to it as well so even back, you know, 2000 years ago, 1500 years ago. People are still pissed about taxes so, yeah, it's, you know these ideas are very widespread and what we can, you know, even if we're having a bad day to us, that can be apocalyptic. These ideas are very widespread and what we can, you know, even if we're having a bad day to us, that can be apocalyptic.

Speaker 2: 1:46:56

So you know it's so yeah and even in a sort of a you know, tongue-in-cheek sort of way. You know, apocalypse is a really important thing there is to discuss.

Speaker 1: 1:47:11

So when is the deadline then to submit an abstract?

Speaker 2: 1:47:14

28th of February. Yeah, so abstracts need to be in by 28th of February. And, yeah, hopefully we're going to get this published as well. We should be able to go into a collective volume. It should be great, and then there's also going to be an excursion as well during the conference.

Speaker 1: 1:47:33

yes, so I would say to the listeners if any of you is a PhD or even a PhD graduate, so make sure to submit your abstracts to this amazing conference. I'll put the link on the show notes and you guys will have so much fun. We have an amazing department of classics, ancient history and eutology as well. We warmly welcome anyone to Swansea University because it's in July, which means we have good sun. Yeah, the beach. So the beach, the beach. I know I understand the rain, but we're going to be happy. So it's summertime. We come to here, have some snacks, go to the age center as well.

Speaker 3: 1:48:22

It's shaping up to be like a. Really it's going to be a really interesting group of academics as well. We've got people coming from the States, from Spain, from Norway.

Speaker 1: 1:48:30

Like it's going to be a really good opportunity, I think so it will be definitely a great opportunity and also, if you go in, you get the pitch as well. You can network with the pitch as well.

Speaker 1: 1:48:42

So, all in all, submit an abstract, alec and Bella will revise and then, if you are successful, then just come along and network and also make life friendships here. So it's the best, alright, guys. So time to wrap it up, and we had an amazing topic here. I would like to ask you what advice you have. Time to wrap it up, and we had an amazing, amazing topic here. I would like to ask you what advice do you have for the listeners who might be undergraduate masters as well and who decided to study for a PhD, and also to those who are in their first year of their doctoral marathon any advice that you guys have?

Speaker 3: 1:49:30

I think what I would say is that, um, this, this is a marathon, not a sprint. I think in undergrad and masters it's like it's something I'm still having to kind of remind myself of, even in my third year of phd, is that undergrad and masters you get very used to having very, very short deadlines, tiny, tiny word counts, and you get used to having that and just kind of going, going, going. Phd it's it's not like that. You have to just completely take that hat off and just trust the process and chip away at it every day. It's a really different way of of studying. So, yeah, it's essentially just trust the stuff that you're going to be researching. It is meant to be difficult, it's going to be challenging and you're not going to be able to figure out your entire thesis in like a month. Um, I I have spent, oh my god, like three months looking at one manuscript, and that's normal, even if it feels like I want to bash my head against. But yeah, it's essentially just trust the process and remind yourself daily, if need be, that it is a massive project and you have to actually cut yourself some slack for that.

Speaker 3: 1:50:44

Yeah, and the same thing I'd just say don't give up and keep going. Persevere. Utilise all the help you can get as well. Ask your supervisors for advice. Even just moaning to other PhD students or friends can really help sometimes. A lot of the time, lots of people are in the same boat as you and just aren't saying so, or maybe aren't as vocal about it as others. Yeah, it can be very lonely. You go from having course mates to suddenly being on your own thing. Yeah, um, so I think that's something that ella and I started at the same time. Yeah, and for the first semester it was pretty much just us, like we didn't really know anyone else, and it did feel a bit like we were just kind of thrown off into the abyss.

Speaker 3: 1:51:30

Yeah, so yeah, just kind of like finding your postgrad research community as well. I think is really really important.

Speaker 2: 1:51:40

Last but not least, I think from my, I think from my view having a schedule, making sure you are able to don't overwork yourself. I think, if you think you just have lots of say, you have potentially a personal deadline with a supervisor or something like that and you think you have to get it all done in a certain period, just making sure that you parcel everything out and make sure that it's in a manageable bite, it's having making sure you know exactly when you're working and when, also, you have time off as well, because, at the end of the day, time off is really important. You don't want to have burnout. You don't want to end up in a situation where you don't feel like you can carry on with your research because you've done too much.

Speaker 3: 1:52:28

It's a huge culture of overworking in academia as well and, yeah, it's like treating it almost just like any other job. You know you get sick leave, you get holiday and you should. I try and treat it as like a 9 to 5 close enough anyway. So, yeah, I think that's a really good point so it is the consistency nonetheless.

Speaker 1: 1:52:51

And just having so it is the consistency nonetheless. And just having some rest, having some drinks and plenty of water, and have some food around you as well, just to munch and just treat it as an entire job, essentially, whether you are funded or not funded. So all that matters here is the PhD is literally a marathon. It's more than 40 kilometers, but if you want to go to a marathon in Greece, you feel free to do the PhD there. But again, it's the perseverance and doing what you do best. If you wanted to go for a PhD, it means that you're good and you will have falls and you will fail a lot, and that's how a good PhD should be.

Speaker 1: 1:53:42

I think it's relative of the age that you start your PhD. Most of us start in mid and almost late 20s and they finish in their early and mid 30 20s and they're finishing their early and mid 30s. So, yeah, that's the thing. So, bella, alec, bella, thank you so much for having the time to to have this amazing talk. It's just when's the deadline? Again? Just let you, let me know. 28th February, 28th of February, yes, 20th of February. Write your abstracts down and you will have a great time If you are succeeding, of course. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 1:54:23

Thank you, yeah, thanks for having us. Bye everyone.

Speaker 1: 1:54:26

And that's a wrap-up of this amazing late night talk with Bella, alec and Ella about their PhD research experience and thoughts in doing a PhD. Thank you all for having the time to listen to this first late night talk with PhDs of 2025 and make sure to follow their social media to follow their work or even to network with them if you're interested in ancient and contemporary histories. Also, 28th of February is the deadline for the upcoming Apocalypses Nunc, apocalypse and Calamity in the Ancient World Conference, which Alec and Bella have organized while liaising with their supervisors and fellow scholars at Swansea University. Submit your abstracts and, if you're selected to present your paper, you will not regret attending and presenting at this amazing conference and to network with other academics and PhDs. I'll leave the link in the description.

Speaker 1: 1:55:26

If you have enjoyed tuning in to this session and previous ones at the PhD Launch Podcast. If you have enjoyed tuning in to this session and previous ones at the PhD Lounge podcast, thank you for leaving a review and a rating on Apple Podcasts, spotify, spotify for Creators and whichever podcast platform you're listening to. Visit also phdloungecouk to check out all late night talks with other PhDs and follow my socials Instagram at phdlMF and LinkedIn. Last but not least, if you're a PhD whether candidate or graduate, a postdoc or a scholar and would love to be a guest to share your doctorate experience, send me an email at luigephdlounge at gmailcom or on my social media. Thank you all for tuning in. It has been a pleasure. Thank you.