Inside Near-Death Experiences With Research And Real Cases

If you’ve ever wondered why so many people come back from the edge with the same calm certainty, this conversation will stay with you. I’m joined by Robert Coppes, a scientist and longtime near-death experience (NDE) researcher, to unpack what people report when their heart stops, what the best research says so far, and why the experience often reshapes a person’s entire relationship with death and meaning.

We get practical about evidence. Robert walks me through prospective hospital research on cardiac arrest survivors and why common explanations like oxygen deprivation or “chemicals in the dying brain” don’t neatly explain who has an NDE and who doesn’t. We also talk about veridical out-of-body experiences, including the famous tennis shoe on a hospital ledge and other cases where patients describe accurate operating-room details they seemingly could not perceive through normal senses.

Then we go into the part people avoid: distressing near-death experiences. Robert explains why “negative” is not the full story, why these accounts don’t correlate with someone being morally “bad,” and how fear, trauma, and expectation may shape early imagery. We end with the themes that keep coming back across NDE reports: unconditional love, oneness, free will, and the life review as learning without judgment plus a powerful reminder not to waste your life believing you aren’t loved.

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To learn more about Robert, visit: http://www.bobcoppes.com/

To learn more about Mindy CLICK HERE

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Are you ready to level them up? Then let's begin. Hi everyone, and welcome back to Up Level Your Life with Mindy. I am your host, Mindy Def, and I have a very special guest with me today. I'm extremely excited to talk to. I'm going to be talking with Robert Kopez. Did I say it right?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Absolutely good.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Just before we started. And we are going to be talking about near-death experiences, which is something that I am absolutely fascinated by. I have no idea why, I just am. But let me tell you a little bit about Robert. He is a scientist and a retired financer, and he has studied near-death experiences for decades. And he's lectured on this topic in the US and in Europe. His latest book on near-death experiences is called Impressions of Near Death Experiences. And it is, in fact, a compilation of hundreds of quotes from experiencers. He considers them the best tutors in life. He is currently a board member of the International Association for Near Death Studies, which is it usually abbreviated. I don't know if they pronounce it IANS. I've seen this a lot of times before. People who've listened to my podcast with Maggie Callanan, she's also affiliated with this organization as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, absolutely she is. Yes. IANS, that's the way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

IANS, there we go. I knew, I'm like, I've heard it, but I can't remember. And he lives in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. So welcome to the show, Robert.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here. Uh Transatlantic.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yes. So I have to ask before we get into it, do you know Maggie or do you just know of Maggie calendar?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yes, I I met her several times. You know, Ions also has uh conferences every year. And we the next one is in Chicago. It's in August, um Labor Day weekend, you call that. Uh so that's uh it's always at the same same weekend. Maybe next year we will do it a different week, but it uh all kinds of people come there who talk about their NDE or researchers talking about their research on NDEs. And Maggie is one uh person. She is she's wonderful. She is uh has been nurse. I think she's retired by now, and she is uh she she wrote a wonderful book uh about her um experiences in the operating uh rooms or in the in the ICU she uh she experienced a lot of people who had such an experience like the NDEs, what we are talking about.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, yeah. She has so if you're interested in this and you haven't, if you're not sure of who we're talking about, I have actually two podcasts with Maggie. You'll have to scroll back a little bit, but um you'll you'll find them. Um her name is Maggie Callahan, and she we talk about the death process, and she had encouraged me to reach out to um some different people involved with this organization because she thought I should do an episode on near-death experiences. And so here we are doing an episode on near-death experiences. And now I am curious.

A Book That Sparked Decades

SPEAKER_00 4:10

My first question, Robert, is what led you to investigate near-death experiences?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Okay, wow. Um, well, the first time that I was really interested, I became interested in the subject was when I read uh Raymond Moody's book. And Raymond Moody is the guy, the medical doctor who coined the term near-death experience. Uh, and he wrote a wonderful book, and that was already in 1975. That's why we have 50 years now that the book is there and that the term is there. And uh in the book, there are wonderful stories of people telling their uh about their NDE. And one of those stories really struck me because in that story, um, the woman um she said she had in her near-death experience also a life review, something that occurs more often. You can see your whole life, you can see what you did, um, but not only from your own point of view, but also from the point of view of uh the the one you're acting with. So you are the the other side for a brief moment. But she said, and that was the thing that really made me curious, was that uh there is no judgment. And as I was raised Roman Catholic with Helen Purgatory and you will be judged, and stuff like that. Um I thought that's correct. Why would anyone need to judge you? You can do that yourself, seeing your whole life, seeing it from the perspective of the people that you act with, and seeing it in the presence of unconditional love, then you can judge yourself very well. So, but you don't have to judge yourself, there's no judgment needed, and that's that's interesting, and that's very, very um special, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, I would agree with that. So just reading reading Raymond Moody's book and kind of resonating with some of those things that they were saying, and that just kind of got you down the the rabbit hole, so to speak, of near-death experiences.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Actually, first I read the book uh and then I was doing my studies. Um and I was doing economics. So you you can see that also people doing economics can be spiritually oriented or interested in spirituality. And then, well, after 25 years or so, that was around um 2000, I started to be looking back at what was done on that subject. Uh, I thought maybe there would be more books, uh, and I found good research being done in the Netherlands in my country and repeated also in the United States and the United Kingdom. And there were groups there, and I found that the conference and I found Ions uh and the organization in the Netherlands, and that started it because then I became board member in my country, and after that was um finished, uh after a number of years, I went to to be become uh board member in the US. And that was, I'm still board member there, uh, dedicated to international groups.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Yeah, it's just so fascinating to me, and I'm glad that you've followed this path because I think it's just so fascinating.

Who Has NDEs And Why

SPEAKER_00 7:30

But let's talk about near-death experiences just a little bit. So, who who can have one? Is it just specific? I mean, do you have to be certain from a certain country? Do you have to be from, you know, have certain spiritual beliefs? Who who gets to have these?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Anyone. That's the short answer. Anyone can have an NDE. And it appears to be that uh people who, like, for instance, were atheist uh and didn't believe in a in a life after uh life, life after death, so to speak, uh they also uh have uh NDEs and they come back and they it's not that they go uh belong to a church or so, but they they become more spiritual. And they're you know, one thing of NDEs is they are so sure that life continues. And that's one of the things that we found out. People who've had an NDE, their fear of death is almost gone. I mean, it's gone for most of the people, it's almost 100% uh that the people don't have any fear of death anymore because they are sure that it continues. They they have been there, they've seen it. So that that's the main uh research uh point.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, so I let's talk a little bit more about the research.

What Studies Can Actually Show

SPEAKER_00 8:50

I know you've said that there's I'm I know there's a lot of research that's been done. Like what kinds of studies have they been doing? Have they been able to prove anything?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, that's yeah, that's very important. You know, um near-death experiences are always very nice stories. Uh, there's always uh unconditional love, uh, a brilliant light is being seen, um, deceased relatives that uh that they have a good connection with, even pets are seen. Uh but these remain just fairy tales if you don't have something to support them. And there has been good research uh in the world. The the first research, as I was mentioning, was done in the Netherlands, and that's um what we call a pro prospective research, which means that it can be uh repeated. Um and I'll explain how the research was done. It was like uh in 10 hospitals during a time span of 13 years, people who were brought into these hospitals were uh with a cardiac arrest and were resuscitated successfully, otherwise you can't talk to them. They were asked as one question Do you have a memory of the time you were out? And of the 344 cases that were in the database, uh there was like 18% who had um recollection of what happened. So those were the near-death experiencers. Um now you have two groups, one group without and one group with an NDE. And you can uh study both groups and see if there are differences. Because if there is a difference, then um that might be the cause for the NDE. But the interesting thing is, and that was also shown in results in the United States and the United Kingdom, there is no difference between the two groups. Most um important part of that is that uh both groups had a lack of oxygen because of the cardiac arrest. Both groups were in a process of dying. So the brains were dying, and what people often say there is like uh substances that are created in a dying brain, um, those could trigger NDEs. But both groups had uh these substances created in their brain. So these two things that are often mentioned, like lack of oxygen and these uh these substances that are created in the brain, in a dying brain, those cannot be the cause for an NDE. The reason why the NDE is there is still not is still not clear. Um so that that's uh this kind of research, and there's um there it's still ongoing, there's still interesting research being performed

Verifiable Out-Of-Body Reports

SPEAKER_01 12:00

in uh Britain. But then other sort of uh research is um looking into the cases, so case studies, and the case studies are specific case studies, those are the the cases where people have been out of their body because end ears always say they leave their body and go to this otherworldly environment that's very nice with unconditional love, etc. That in those cases where people get out of their body, they see something outside their body, it could be here on the earth plane, or it could be uh what they say they have seen on the other side, and then when they come back again, um, it is confirmed independently, and these are verifiable out-of-body experiences or veridical observations in it during an NDE. And now I'll give you uh some uh examples if I may. Um there, I I think there are two categories of uh these vertical observations. The first one is where people see something happening in the earthly uh environment, so that's the environment where we are, and the second category is when they hear something on the other side and they come back with that information and it proves to be correct. Both cases will give circumstantial evidence that these NDEs are real, and there are hundreds of these cases, and I'll give you an example. The most famous example is the Shu example, uh, that's where one uh person, a woman who was brought into a hospital, uh, had her uh near-death experience there. I think that was because of her uh cardiac arrest during uh her time in the hospital, and she left her body and went through the window uh outside, and she came. Yeah, it's they they hover, they can hover anywhere. And she hovered into the uh the ledge of the hospital, and she saw a um a tennis shoe lying there with certain marks like a wear spot somewhere and the color and the and brand name, etc. And then when after her and the easy came back again uh in her body and she was resuscitated, she later asked one of the nurses, and I know that nurse, and she she asked that nurse, please can you uh I experienced this funny thing. Can you go and look into the ledge somewhere of the hospital and try to find the shoe? You have to understand that the ledge of a hospital is very long and it's endless. But this nurse went through looking through all kinds of windows uh and she finally found uh the shoe. It it it you cannot be there as a patient when you are in in bed having your cardiac arrest, but nevertheless, she knew that. Another is where um a woman who was um having uh her near-death experience in a hospital, she um went into her NDE, she went to the other side, and she met, as she says, deceased relatives. One of those, a man, presented herself, uh himself as a as her brother. And she said, I don't have a brother. And then he presented himself as a baby boy, and he said to her, Remember how I look like, remember what kind of clothes I'm wearing, uh, and re and ask your father about me. And after she was resuscitated, she did that, and the father said, Yes, you had a a brother, uh, and he died uh right after he was born, and we never spoke about him again because it was so painful for us. You you uh she didn't know about him, and you know, there are so many of these stories, and uh let me just flash you a wonderful book there. This is a book also published by um the International Association for Near Death Studies, and it says the self does not die, and it it has all these or many of these examples that they are very well researched, and I think the these kind of this kind of research uh is important as circumstantial evidence. We don't have anything else.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Those are just absolutely incredible stories. I have heard that shoe story before.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I can tell you more stories though, but there this is uh the most uh famous one, and uh I can tell it in a kind of quick way.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah, yeah. And I know I've heard um, oh people who have like died on an operating table or in the hospital, and then they're still in the room, and then they can come back and tell, like, well, you got the crash cart out, and you were you said these words, and they're like, No, no, no, you couldn't know that you were dead.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

And they're like, Well, yeah, there's even one story where uh um a patient had his uh operation and the doctor was uh pointing, he was out already, he was taped shut, his eyes and the ears, he couldn't hear anything, couldn't see anything. Uh and then the the doctor was pointing at instruments with his elbows, and that's what he saw. And that was something that he'd never seen uh done by a doctor. Imagine that you're you're you're taking your elbows and you're pointing for the nurses where to go and what to take and what to do. Later, the the doctor, when he heard that the patient had heard that, he was afraid of litigation. So he first he said, I don't, I don't talk anymore. And then later, when um uh Bruce Grayson spoke with him, and that was um in a more nice, well, in a in a nice way, Bruce is a one wonderful guy, he's one of the researchers. Um he mellowed down and he started talking and he said, This is my routine, this is how I do it. And I don't understand one bit why my patient could have seen that. He he shouldn't know that, and but he knows it, so there should be something. I don't know what. Things cannot

Not Recognizing Your Own Body

SPEAKER_01 18:30

be explained.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah. So I was watching actually just today, um, I came across on my TikTok feed of all things. So there was a man who is recounting his near-death experience, and it's something that I've heard before, but I'm wondering if it's universal or just who knows. Some people do, some people don't. Um, he experienced leaving the body. He said he felt like he got, you know, kind of sucked out. He could feel that that pull out, and he saw himself, he saw his human body there, but was completely detached from it to the point where um he didn't even realize that was him. He saw he was seeing the scene, you know, seeing that, oh, something has happened. Oh, look at this poor man. Um, I, you know, I've heard this story again and again from different people, but I'm wondering if that's a universal experience or just who knows who gets to have that and who doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Well, it's it's uh not well, it's not universal because not one NDE is the same as another. But what you tell or what you say is something that I heard here much more. People don't recognize their body because you you always see yourself on a picture which is flat, or you see your mirror image, and that's flat as well. Imagine you're in an elevator with all these mirrors, you see sometimes your backside as well. That's that's something that first you have to look, oh, that's me, yes. But in this case, when people leave their body, they see everything uh from a different perspective. And I can tell you the story where a woman who left her body in a hospital, she was hovering just below the ceiling, which is typical, by the way, uh, and looked down and she looked at herself, but she didn't recognize herself. The first thing she thought was, wow, that woman has the same nightgown as I have. But it was herself, and then another one who had um a uh um um uh how do you say that, a flash of lightning uh on her umbrella. She didn't notice anything, but she she kept on walking, going into the synagogue. And once she was there, she saw the commotion there, uh, people looking outside, and she turned and she saw a woman lying there on the ground, and she thought, uh first she didn't recognize herself, but then she saw her shoes, and she saw, and then she recognized that it was her, and she the first thing she thought was, Wow, uh those are nice shoes, and now they're gone. And then the next moment she thought, Oh my god, if I'm if I'm lying there, what am I doing here then? So, because the detachment is something that people don't understand. You're never detached from your body, you always look outside your eyes and you see the world. And now you have the first time where you're outside your body and you you see the world from a different perspective. Yeah, so that's that's something that I I uh can be heard regularly, and I have heard these stories too.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

But not necessarily everyone has that, just some people do and some people don't. I suppose it might just be I mean, we're all all different people having different experiences, so it probably is no different than anything else. Like if your maybe your soul will say is more remembered. It better, remembers this process better. So you don't need to have that moment of, or I suppose if people passed um in a hospice situation, maybe where they're kind of gradually in between worlds and then they they cross over, there's not that shock, that sudden, like, where did this come from? Like that woman that got struck by lightning that you're talking about. I can imagine that she wasn't expecting that. So then didn't realize, oh, well, looky there. I just died.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Whoops. She thought there was a kind of a sizzle, she felt a zizzle, but then she heard the the lightning and there was a flash and everything and the sound and so. But she she thought, well, I'm okay. I so I she kept on walking, and that's the thing. And to come back to your first question, I remember you asked me who can have such an experience. Anyone can have it, any person on earth, uh, and even sometimes people think also animals can have them. Uh, there are funny stories there, but um, you know, any person white, uh, black, yellow, red, uh, any nationality, any uh belief, uh, you can be Christian, uh, atheist, Muslim, Hindus. They are there are stories everywhere. You can be rich, poor, you can be awful and bad in the way that we describe or think of bad. You can be a saint, anyone has uh has recounted and ease. Also the people that we think are bad. Uh because the that the one thing that I want to stress also is that the love and the light on the other side is there for everyone. It makes no distinction. It makes no distinction if you are an Israeli or a Palestinian or a Ukrainian or a Russian or you name it. It doesn't matter. American, European, anything is good. Because we are all uh from the source. That's one of the things that people say we we come from the source. We all come from the source. So it means that we are all yeah, from the same substance or from the same somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I agree with that mindset completely.

Distressing NDEs And Why They Happen

SPEAKER_00 24:21

I do want to I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I do want to address this because it has it's out there and I've come across it. And that is the fact that occasionally someone will have a negative near-death experience. And I I have my own theories on this. Um, you don't I don't you sure don't hear about it very often.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Um, but but I have heard of people that did not, they said I don't know what these people were talking about. It was not love and light, it was terrifying, it was this and that. Um, I would love to hear your take on that. And then if mine is different, I can share my theory as well. But I would love to hear the your professional opinion on it versus just my theories and hunches.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

I'd love to hear your theory, but let me tell you, um, let and the listeners uh something more about distressing NDEs. We call them distressing NDEs because negative sounds like it's bad. Uh whereas also people who've had an a distressing NDE have like a life changer, they change their lives and become different in a way. So it has the same kind of effects. Um, but distressing NDEs, there they exist. Um first we thought that they were anomalies, but they are not, so because there are too many of those. But to give a perspective, it's very difficult to put a number on uh the amount or the number of NDEs because not everyone with a distressed NDE will come forward and say, Well, I listen, I have had such an experience. Uh, but of the um the number of NDEers that are out there, the people that come forward with a distressing NDE that varies between 5% and uh even something like 20%, depends on on what kind of uh who you ask. So it's it's a minority. But the the most important thing that I want to say here, uh, and that's what we found out uh in during research, is that um you cannot say that people who have had a distressing NDE have had a bad life, they were bad people. And people who have had a blissful NDE must only be people that have been leading good lives, apart from the the question uh how do you define bad and good? Um, because that's also uh a matter of moral. I mean, pre in previous times we thought that witches were bad. Uh now we have a different perspective on that. So just to to give an indication of uh that morals can change. But so you you cannot say that um that distressed NDEs only occur to bad people, because uh there are cases uh that are vice versa. And I'll I'll give you an example. Um, first case is of a um a bad person, uh self-proclaimed bad person, Daniel Brinkley. He's kind of famous. Uh he had um uh a blissful NDE, but he says of himself in his book uh that he wrote together with Paul Perry that he was a very bad person. He he disliked himself uh so much after his NDE because then he saw what he had done to others. He said, I was terrible in schools, I stole people's bikes, I bullied them, I was in countless fights, and later I went to work for an American organization that went to other countries to kill uh adversaries of the United States. And one time, that's what he said, he took out a uh one person, but doing that uh by bombing the whole hotel with 50 or plus people in it, innocent people. So while we could maybe say that he wasn't really on the good side of life, he had a wonderful NDE. Um, he met unconditional love, um, and he said the only thing in my NDE that was really, really uh terrible, that was my life review. Because during my life review, I could see what I've done for to others. I could see not only what I've done to others from a vantage point far away, but I was also inside these people, and not only inside these people, but also inside the the people that surrounded them, like the the wives that were left behind and the children that were left behind. And he said that was really difficult. That was that was his distressing part of his NDE, if you want to put it like that. And there are also cases, um, and then I flash another book to you. This is of Kathy McDaniel, and she wrote a book about her distressing NDE, and that's uh misfit in hell to have an expat. Uh, she is what I would say just a common person, uh, nothing special, some something uh like you and me, or uh all your listeners. Um, average person, yet she had a distressing NDE that was really, you know, distressing NDEs vary between um having the feeling when going through a tunnel at high speed, and you don't you are afraid. And by the way, not everyone has a tunnel because all NDEs are different, and it varies between that and uh that you really see hellish uh things like devilish uh entities and that that attack you, and so so there are a few of those uh stories, but she said uh um I'm just a uh I know her, and she's a very nice woman, and she is um just as normal as anyone else, and she had this uh distressing ND, and later she had the feeling that it it and that that's the theory. That's and now I come to what the theory is, and I it's not my theory, but it's the theory of uh people who have researched that uh more extensively, like Nancy Evans Bush uh and also Bruce Grayson. It's um the the idea is that um distressing NDEs pop up from our collective unconscious or andor from our own uh conscious. Um, and in this case with Kathy McDaniel, she says, you know, she had been so much afraid of Helen Purgatory because she was raised Roman Catholic, another one. And um, and she also was raped several times, um, I think twice, uh, and she was so much afraid of attracting AIDS, and those were the things that played out in her NDE because of her fear. It is just, you know, on the other side, whatever you think will materialize. Uh, that's how I see it. Um, there are also uh some people that have an NDE. Let me give you this example that I like, I like that so much. Uh, a woman had her NDE and she was hanging in this uh dark void, and she met with a lot of love, and it was a wonderful feeling, and she enjoyed herself tremendously there. But after a while, she said to herself, Well, this is a very nice feeling, but uh can I would love to see something else. And then uh she said, It was as if a hand full of paintbrushes came across and painted the most wonderful landscape for me with rolling hills and uh butterflies and flowers and trees and whatever and streams of what you can mention. Um and she this is something she wanted, and that is what she got. So, and that is another thing that people who have had their who have their distressing NDE, there are many stories where they get out of it by thinking of love or thinking of in some cases Jesus, or uh, and I say Jesus because Jesus is sometimes seen in NDEs, but also other deities from other religions. So it's not only Christianity that's out there, and I say always it's um the real thing, like the real light is uh is more than any religion, it's uh supersedes any religion. But so yeah, that's that's how it is. It's um and I want to close this, and then I'm curious what what you say, uh, what your theory is. I'm really curious. Um, I've spoken to NDE's and I read NDEs um where people say explicitly that there is no hell and purgatory, and that's not only because they say it, but because they have heard it on the other side. Like Chris Carlson, uh Carson, he had an NDE, and during his NDE, he was explicitly told there is no hell and no purgatory. Another person was told we all go home, and home is not in some kind of hellish environment, but that's the wonderful environment where we are. And there are more people in the ears that have heard this or have been assured that there is no no such thing as a as a lasting hell that we have in our mind or that has been put there by um Christianity or Islam. They

Oneness Free Will And Suicide Myths

SPEAKER_01 34:20

they have that as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah, interesting. Well, I am happy to report that my personal theory is very much aligned with what you said. Again, I'm definitely not a researcher, just my own interest in the topic and what I've read and what just feels right to me is again, everybody is so different. And so everyone's experiences are going to be a little bit different from the next, even though there are a lot of common threads and themes among them. But I think if someone has a lot of fear surrounding death, or if they have that belief that, well, purgatory is real, or they believe that they may visit hell even for a short time, then that's what you'll experience initially. That's gonna be like the first part of it, but it won't last because it can't last because it's literally you're creating it. It's the figment of your imagination. Like the woman you said that was like, Well, this is great, but I'd like something else. So, in that experience, you're gonna be like, This is terrifying. I'd like something else. Well, then there it'll be, right? So I don't know, that just seems right to me. And I have not had a near-death experience. I'm not an expert, but that's just something that has resonated with me personally.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah. And there's, I think, another reason, I think you're quite right uh there. There's another reason also, because you know, what I understand from end ears is that we are all part of the same thing. Uh, there is one source, and we all come from it. Or call it light, call it God, or call it anything else. Doesn't matter. I we don't know what it is, uh, and we will never really know. But it's one big thing. We are all part of it. That is also the reason why I think that we are capable of seeing during our live review um what we did to an other being the other. We you have to read or listen to some of the NDEs, uh NDEs. They they really say that they have been the other for a brief moment and they've seen what is done to them and they feel everything in detail. But having said that, so that we are all from this one substance, how is it possible that part of that substance or this oneness is left in disarray? Like um, I'll I'll uh put my hand in in an oven and I pretend it doesn't hurt me or so. That's that's ridiculous. It's one whole thing, and it it so we are no one is left behind. I don't believe that. And the indications are like that. And it's and I think also what you say is right is as well, is that the condition that you are in at the moment of dying is also uh has also some influence on on your first moments after you die. And having said that, I would also like to say that also people who have committed suicide have reported wonderful NDEs because sometimes we are told by religious people and by others that if you commit suicide, you will be sent to hell or so. That's there are no indications for that. So there are uh enough uh people with a suicide uh that report a wonderful NDE. And I don't say that people should do suicide because there is also a feeling, and it's interesting that people that have committed suicide don't want to do that again because they know how important life is, how important their life is, because if they succeeded in it, then other people would be waiting for them and not seeing them because they are gone. Um, so every person's life is important, even if you are in the biggest shit. Uh if you are in the street having nothing, even then, your life is so important, it's immeasurably important. Um, not only presidents and kings and CEOs are important, we all are. That's what I understand from all these endy ears.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah, that's so interesting. And this life review, which I mean, I'm sure a lot of us are familiar with that concept because it's I mean, I think because it's so common, so it's kind of just become part of the the narrative around near-death. Not everyone has it. Yeah. Um but that idea of viewing things from somebody else's perspective and not just like seeing, but like experiencing it from that other person's perspective. I remember hearing a story of a woman who she'd had her near-death experience, or maybe it was a man, I can't remember it. They'd had the near-death experience, they were wherever they went, some beautiful, glorious place, and then they were coming back to the hospital and they weren't just immediately back in their body, they were back in the halls of the hospital first after having had this wonderful experience. And as they're kind of, I guess, floating through the halls of the hospital and they're seeing other people, you know, people visiting, people that were patients, doctors, nurses, as they would look at each person, they instantly knew everything about that person. Yeah. I mean, and but still having all of the, not in like a creepy way, like, I know what you're thinking, but in the with this, like all they had was so much love and compassion for each of these individuals. But they knew not just, oh, you're walking down the hallway to this room, but they knew like all their hopes and dreams and fears and everything, everything just in an instant. They knew as if they were that person just by looking at them. So I think that's just But there's also an after effect.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Um, sometimes when people come back in their body, they still have that connection. Uh, it's I always say that the door is ajar, it's not closed all the way. You can still have some kind of peek through it, or you can have the feeling that you had before. And there are uh many reports of people that that know uh what other people feel, um, not continuously, but uh if it's necessary, they they feel what some other people go through. They they they feel whether they lie or not, they feel if they're in distress, um, even if they hide it very well. Uh so I also think that that end years can be a great help to people.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, absolutely.

Two Messages People Never Forget

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Um I could do probably a hundred more episodes. I don't know why I am fascinated by this topic, but I just am. But I am curious, in kind of some of our last time together here, if you have any stories that you have not shared yet that are just your absolute favorite stories or little snippets from people's stories. I know your whole book is full of experiences from different people, but do you have a few that you haven't shared yet that stand out a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Um well, I I've shared many of those, uh some here and some there, but there there are a few that really are important, I would say. Um because the message, you know, the reason why I I wrote this book is because of the the messages that are in it. Uh, it's the impressions of near-death experiences, because you cannot really uh get a good definition of what a near-death experience is. You have to read through a lot of these NDEs or listen to many of those, and then you get just a feeling or an impression of what it is. Um, and one of those, uh yeah, um, and I think that the messages that some of those NDEs give are so important. Um one of those uh is um well, two of those. Let me give you two. One one is a little girl that was um drowned by a man or two men. She was abducted, and um she made it after all because her father came to her rescue. But the thing is, she had her NDE, and in her NDE, she was uh going through the tunnel. At the end of the tunnel, there was an elderly person, a man, blocking the passage and said you had to go back. Uh, she had to go back. But he had a little conversation with her. She was eight years old, and um uh he said, You have to go back because it's important that you go back. There is and life is is easy because it only has uh four ingredients, and he gave the four ingredients, and that's where the message is. The four ingredients were like love, be loved, just be and experience life. It's easy, she said. Um, but uh loving is is difficult because you have to do something for it, and be loved is also difficult because you have to accept it. And sometimes accepting love from someone else can be difficult, but but just to be and experience life, you can do that anyway. Time, even if you sit on a chair for the whole day, that's it. The other story that comes to my mind is a woman who had her NDE after she wanted to die. So she sort of committed suicide and she made it. And then when she was lying in bed um uh after her NDE, she wanted to go back again to that wonderful feeling, and then Jesus came along uh and she said it was Jesus. Uh and Jesus, without opening his mouth, he said one line, and that one line was uh, don't waste your life thinking you are not loved. So don't waste your life thinking you are not loved. And that applied to her, but it applies to anyone. We all should not waste our life. And the interesting thing is, this woman was a uh um um teacher in English, English language, and she thought of that sentence, she had gone through that sentence over and over again, and then uh she said, So I have a life that I can waste. That's the that's the message. Don't waste your life, uh don't do it, and don't waste it by thinking that you are not loved, because that's what why she committed suicide. She thought there's no one loving me. Of course, people can love you, but there you are loved from the other side as well. There is so much love from the other side. We don't see it perhaps, and some people do feel it, and not everyone feels it, but it is there, and that's the the big message that comes across from Andy E's.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Yeah, oh wow, there are several other nice stories that I well we'll get the book and read the rest of them, but that was a good yeah, that's a good teaser for us. Um, and I just I love how how simple it is and how you know don't waste your life, but but but that doesn't mean you have to go out and do, right? Because like you said, you could sit in a chair and experience life.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Yes, but but still if you you if you sit on a chair, you experience life and uh you you just be. Um but will you be satisfied when you see a life review? You know, the the life reviews that people really like are the ones where you have shared love, where you have accepted love, where you have done something. And those are the two first ones, love and be love. It's it's the the thing is love is the most important thing. There are also stories where people are shown their life review and they see what they did bad and they see what options they had. So there were alternatives. Those alternatives were give more love to the world. Um, and those are the nice ones. But if you chose the other way, that's fine with us. You're not being judged. That's the idea, that's how I understand it. But you need to see uh where you have made your choice, and the the thing is, we have free will, there is no um predetermination. We have free will. If we want to to make a big mess out of this world and and and do nasty things to other people or kill a lot of people, uh the source will say, be my guest. It's not what I would like, but it's free will. If you do the loving things, I will be very happy. That's that's how I feel it is. Um, but there's no judgment. There is also so much understanding for where you come from. The whole idea of your life review is more to see why you made the choices, what your your your place on in the world is, because everyone has a place, and you came there by the upbringing you had, the the country you're in, the the social something you're in, uh, your genes can be in the way, um, anything. So there is always a reason why you are there where you are.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, and that makes so much sense, you know, and with the terms of the life reviews, and I know you said not everybody necessarily does this in a near-death experience, but that from a soul perspective, I guess, would be how our soul would really learn and grow is from this place of non-judgment, but looking fully at the situation of that was the choice you made and that was the outcome, and this is how it affected people, good or bad. And then your soul can fully absorb that and go, oh my goodness, maybe something you had no idea while you were incarnate, alive on this earth, maybe it had a huge positive or negative impact, and you had no idea, and now you can look and see. Yeah, and now you know, right? Yeah, just make it.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Without the judgment.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Yeah, yeah. Because there, I mean, you'll learn either way, whether you made the quote unquote right choice or the wrong choice, and there isn't a right or wrong choice.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Um, and the the thing is also, it's I also compare that maybe to a zero-sum game. Like if I do something to you and it harms you, and I walk away, I will be able to feel what it is. So it is zero sum in the way that I have the same feeling as you had, and you will have the same feeling as what I had, and why I did that, where I came from. So it's it's it's kind of zero sum game. That's how I try to see it for myself.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

Yeah, yeah, that totally, totally makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

I don't know about anybody else listening, but but I say I say always no one really knows how it really works, uh, because um we cannot know that. We we know some impressions, uh, but that's the only thing. And I say that if someone really says it is like this or that, and I know for sure, the only thing you have to do is run away as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

We can only talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of you know, a lot of evidence and a lot of like probabilities, but you're right, like nobody knows. We won't know until we actually go experience it ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

So yeah, but the things are the things that stick out are the unconditional love and the oneness that we are all very closely interconnected, uh, very much one perhaps, uh, and unconditional love.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah, yeah. Oh,

Love In Small Moments Daily

SPEAKER_00 50:40

I love that. So I have a final question for you. This is a question I ask all of my podcast guests, and I'm really curious. I feel like I know kind of the direction you're gonna go based on our conversation here, but especially because I feel like you've got inside information being talked to all these people who have had near-death experiences. But my question is what is one thing that you wish everyone on the planet would do in regards to their own well-being?

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Ooh, um for their own well-being. You know, your own well-being is best served by serving others. Um giving love away just increases the love there is. So uh, and you will when you have your life review, you will see the love from the other uh side and you will enjoy it. Make an enjoyable life review for yourself. I would say that was be that would be important. Make yourself the best life review there is that you can enjoy and just think, wow, I did that. That's love. That's what I hope for myself and I hope for anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Oh, I love that. Yeah, love, not from a place of obligation, but from a place of genuine so you have a good life review at the end. From love and joy, from the from the depths of your soul, because you love doing it, and that will increase the love. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yeah, and smile to people, only also to people you don't know. The small moments are also important. That's also what uh one of the NDEs uh told me in my book. The stories in my book. It is so important how you act in the day. It doesn't have to be the big things, it's just the small things. Being in car, giving someone else the priority, or in the line, or smiling, or say something nice to someone. Yeah, those are important moments.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

I love that. Um, so much interesting information here in this podcast, but I know there's even more interesting information in your book. If people are interested in learning more about you or in purchasing the book, where can they go to find that?

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Well, they can go to my website, it's um www.bobcopus.com,

Where To Find The Book

SPEAKER_01 53:11

and my book will be there. Um, and you people can buy the book on Amazon. Um, and it's a publication by Ions. So on the their website, ions.org, uh, people can also find it. And the International Association for Near Death Studies is a very interesting organization. They have an archive with a lot of NDEs. Just go roaming through it, it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Fantastic. And I believe. Yeah, you know, um, Maggie has told me I should go. I'm sure I'd find a lot more people to interview for the podcast if I went. And I didn't know it was in Chicago. It's not too far from me. So well, I hope that everybody listening got a little bit of um, I guess, reassurance, I think is what I what comes through the most from these types of talks. Just a lot of reassurance about what's potentially on the other side, what might be awaiting us, and what to do with your life as you're living it now. So, Robert, thank you so much for being on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Well, thank you very much, uh, Mindy, for having me. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. It was a wonderful talk.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

And everyone that's listening, I hope you're having a fantastic day. And I will catch you on the next one. That's it for today, friends. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe. Or even better, leave a review and let me know what resonated with you the most. The more you tell me what you love, the better I'm able to create a bigger episode with an even better month. I'm sending you much lump money to me. I will see you in the next episode.