High performance with Joe Sprange
My name is Joe Sprange. I’m a husband, dad, business owner, triathlete, kids rugby coach and I love talking to people. I started running in fun runs when I was six and I’ve recently completed my 50th triathlon. I’ve worked in Advertising and Marketing, but now I own my own personal training business. My goal is to be the best I can be as a husband, dad, triathlete, boss, coach, so I love asking others I respect those secrets on how they got to be where they are today. My passion is about finding the key to unlock potential. So that’s what my podcast is all about. I interview everyday people who perform at extraordinary high levels and collect a bunch of those keys and share them with you. This is High Performance with Joe Sprange, hit subscribe now to stay up to date with our latest podcasts.”
High performance with Joe Sprange
High Performance with Joe Sprange - Nick Farr-Jones
Welcome to Episode #3 of Season 3 of High Performance with Joe Sprange.
Today, my conversation is with Nick Farr-Jones, former Wallabies captain and Rugby World Cup winner. Nick has always been someone I’ve admired for his leadership, humility and composure under pressure.
In our chat, he reflects on the lessons that shaped him, from being left out of the 1st XV at Newington College to lifting the Rugby World Cup with Australia in 1991. His story is a powerful reminder that high performance isn’t a destination, it’s a mindset.
For Nick, the keys are simple but uncompromising:
• Mindset - How good can I be? Never being satisfied
• Discipline - You’re either in it or you’re not
• Consistant Effort - Physical and mental
In this episode, we explore:
• What leadership under pressure really looks like
• How to build trust and connection in a team
• Why the best are never satisfied
• The habits that keep champions grounded
One moment that stuck with me was when I asked Nick what surprised him most about high performance.He said: “How few people achieve it. I know so many great sportspeople who never got close to reaching their potential - 99% of people miss out.”
Nick’s perspective is shaped by both triumph and reflection. After winning Australia’s first Rugby World Cup in 1991, he and the team didn’t settle. They went on to beat the All Blacks and Springboks in 1992.
This episode is a masterclass in leadership and legacy.
Next up: Cross-country skiing has always held a special place in my heart. I was a successful junior racer growing up, a kid who dreamed of the Olympics, so the next conversation feels personal. I sit down with Seve de Campo, one of Australia’s top cross-country skiers, to talk about resilience, identity and what it takes to keep pushing forward when no one’s watching.
Don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of High Performance with Joe Sprange.
Connect with Nick Farr-Jones:
🔗 LinkedIn
🌐 taurusfunds.com.au
My name is Joe Sprange. I'm a husband, a dad, a business owner, a triathlete, a junior rugby coach, and I love talking to people. I started running fun runs when I was six, and I've recently completed my hundredth triathlon. I've worked in advertising, marketing, and I've run my own health and fitness business. My goal is to be the best I can be as a husband, a dad, and a coach. I love talking to people who I respect about the secrets of how they got to where they are today. My passion is finding the key to unlock potential. So that's what my podcast is all about. I interview everyday people who perform at extraordinary high levels. I collect a bunch of those keys and I share them with you. This is High Performance with Joe Sprange. Welcome to episode three of season three of High Performance with Joe Sprange. Today my conversation is with Nick Far Jones, former Wallaby's captain and rugby World Cup winner. Nick didn't make the first 15 at Newington, but that didn't stop his progression. His story is a powerful reminder that high performance isn't a destination. It's a mindset for him. The keys to high performance for Nick, a mindset of discipline and constant effort. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Speaker 2:So, Nick, how do you define high performance? It's good to be with you. It's uh probably as you'll find in the course of this chat, you know, I'm not a person who defines things in a short space. I think high performance, and you've got to remember to put things in perspective, I played amateur. Okay, so a lot of people talk about high performance being that professional side of the game. Yep. I had one of my national coaches, I had two, Alan Jones and Bob Dwyer. One of the things I'd say about Alan Jones, when he took over of coaching the Wallabies in 1984, he didn't have a huge pedigree. He didn't have a big background of coaching. He'd coached Manley the year before to a premiership. But before that, it was basically King's Old Boys and then King's at school. But what Jones did differently, that made that 84 team and then 85, 86, 87, we became probably the best team in the world, along with New Zealand. Was that even though I was an amateur player, if I wanted to be in the Jones team, I had to treat it like I was a professional player. That had to be my work ethic and that had to be my mindset. And I suppose high performance, I would say that it's it's you're set apart. Yeah. You're set apart from the others, and either you're in it or you're out of it. And so it's both that mindset and the discipline that's required, but also just the physical exertion that is required. That if you're going to be in the JIC, the Jones Inner Circle, then you had to be prepared mentally and physically to do whatever it took to be individually and then collectively the best you possibly could be. And if you did individually and collectively the best you could be, and you had the skill set and the background and the combination of people, then the natural happens. You you you bubble to the surface, you become one of the best teams in the world. And that's how I I mean there's many things that I could say in relation to high performance. For me, it was not dying wondering how good I could be, never being satisfied with where I was as an individual scrum half as an individual captain, but collectively, and I never was comfortable. Even when we won the World Cup in '91, you you'd think, well, that is as high as it can get. That is your Everest. But I remember well Bob Dwyer, after some celebrations in the changing room, basically saying, guys, we'll celebrate tonight, we'll have a great time, we've done something pretty special for our country, we think. You've got to remember we were distant. We we didn't get back in until a week later to realise how important it was for the rugby nation and and the followers. But Bob went on to say very correctly that guys, if we look seriously about how we played in this World Cup, the six matches that we played, the three pool matches, the great escape against Ireland, and then the all black England final and winning 12-3 with one lousy try. Bob went on to say, guys, next year we've got the All Blacks coming out for three tests. We think South Africa will come back into the international stage, which they did. Let's show the world next year how good we we really are. And in 92, we were much better than we were in 91. And to me, that's what high performance is about, never being satisfied with where you are, irrespective of your age, individually and as a team, wanting to improve, do better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I I I I love that you've you've you sort of perfectly flowed on to my second question. Tell me what are the what are the things that you were doing to to deliver that higher performance? Because you talked about never being satisfied. What happened after the World Cup that that helped you guys go to that?
Speaker 2:Well, I I I think we knew that the All Blacks were coming out for three tests. Um we were only winning the Blederslow sparingly. In 91, the All Blacks retained the Blederslow. I'll never forget it. We beat them at Moore Park at the football stadium, I think about 21-9, 21-10. We went over to Eden Park to win the Bledisloe, and we played miserably. Somehow, our great kicker Michael Liner missed five kicks and we lost 6-3. And so they retained the Blender's low. And so just knowing how important that was, and also defending our mantle, defending our title, that the World Cup wasn't a one-off, it wasn't a fluke. We were consistently the best team. It was all about consistency to me, and and that's what defines the great sports people, in my view, are the people who week in, week out, turn up. You know you can rely on them. You know that when you see a bloke in your changing room pulling on your coloured jersey, he's the sort of person you think, geez, I'm glad he's playing, pulling on a gold jersey and not a white jersey or a blue jersey or a black jersey. They're the people you want in your changing room that you know will always deliver. Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the things I always like to investigate, so you've had this experience as an amateur athlete in the wallabies, and then you obviously s retire from rugby at some point in time and you you enter, you know, let's call it the real world. How does your perspective on high performance changed and what have you taken from that rugby experience?
Speaker 2:So, Joe, you've made the same mistake that 99% of people do, they say, What did you do after rugby? Yeah. You've got to remember if you're an amateur, yeah, you're doing things during the day. Absolutely. So I was either a student studying law at Sydney University or I was a lawyer in a mid-sized Sydney legal firm. So don't change radically. Yeah. You've got to remember that unless we went into camp and you could only do that three days before, on a Wednesday before a Saturday test, you know, if you're on tour, it's different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they were the rules, the International Rugby Board rules. And so life didn't change dramatically when you retired and stopped. And you know, I I was always either a student or I was a lawyer. And we trained after hours. So if I'm playing for Sydney University, and you've got to remember, after a test match on a Saturday, I would often play for my club on a Sunday. And that was that was regular. And it was a great privilege to do that. I mean, I love pulling on the university jersey on the Sunday, yeah. Even though you might have had half a dozen beers the night tomorrow.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You're young, you're fit, you could, you could, yeah, you know, you could crash through walls in those days. Yeah. So so things didn't change dramatically. And we can we can flesh out what what I've done professionally from you know a job perspective, because you know, I I stopped about '93, or actually retired after the Cape Town test, but then the scrum halfer who placed me got injured, and the boys asked me, and my coaches asked me to come back and play the one-off against the All Blacks, and then a three-test series against the South Africans. So I then stopped after the final test in Sydney against the Springboks. But I had an invitation to go to Paris with a French investment bank, which changed life dramatically. Yeah. We had a couple of young kids that we took over there, so we we can flesh that out and and what have you, and and how I adjusted to that and what changes I needed to make sure that those four years were very satisfactory, though rewarding, that I was able to change vocation successfully and and what have you. But it just seemed that life went on and various offers came up. As I said, life life in Sydney got out of control in '92, '93, '94 in a really nice way. Yeah. I just had so many invitations to do things and you know, join boards and and not-for-profits and a million speaking gigs, corporate gigs, sporting clubs, schools, churches. Yeah. And and one thing, Joe, about me is that, and I I'm not sure it's a weakness, my wife might disagree, but I'm not very good at saying no. No. So I'm grateful you can't say no because we're having this conversation today. It's my absolute pleasure because at the end of the day, whilst you might lead a really, really busy life and I look back over, you know, the the busyness of my life, I'm the richer for it. Yeah. Um, yeah, my wife might have suffered from time to time, particularly when the kids were younger, because I was often away. But you know, if I did a speaking function, if it wasn't a corporate, I've always done things for nothing. It's been a privilege to do that. But often I'll say, look, I I know I have this policy of not charging, but you know, for example, if I go interstate or sometimes even say to New Zealand, I will get a good night's or two's accommodation where Ange and I can go and enjoy that. So you make up for it.
Speaker 1:Tell me, what would your coaches have said about you if I'd said to them, why is Nick the Wallaby's halfback?
Speaker 2:I think they'd probably point towards my discipline, my upbringing. I mean, certainly Alan, certainly Alan Jones knew that, you know, even though I was playing second division for Sydney University in in 83, he knew me because he was a middle distance athletics coach, running coach, and and he knew of me from GPS events and and what have you. And so I think that if you have that discipline in your background, one, you know you're gonna lead by example, you're gonna you you're going to have this this never day say die attitude, you're going to always want to work hard. And then you know, I think when people got to meet me, I'd like to think that they realize that I love team, I love getting the best out of the people around me, particularly towards the end of my career when young guys were coming through. I'd I'd really try and, you know, look after the young guys, make sure that you know they they enjoyed the experience, that if they were really nervous, want to encourage them, that's a great thing. You know, it means something to you. But just remember we've done the work, we've done the training, you've done the work individually, we've done the work collectively. Go out and let it just flow, let it flow and and and what have you. So I'd like to think that both Alan Jones and Bob Dwyer would look back as someone who always delivered, who was always you know, the heart and soul of the team as far as looking after other people, and at the end of the day, became a good leader for a lot of those reasons.
Speaker 1:And do you think those you were born with those things, or you developed them? Sorry about that, Joe.
Speaker 2:Look, I I there's no doubt I developed things. When when I first captained Australia in in 88, I sort of thought about my first captain and his qualities and what he brought to the leadership, and that was Andrew Slack. After a frustrating year or two of inconsistency within the team, I realised that Bob Dwyer selected me because he saw leadership qualities in me, and I just had to be natural and let those flow. But in saying that, Joe, I did captain most of the sporting teams that I grew up playing. Like I loved soccer when I was young, before I was three hours on a train to get to Stanmore and school, and so soccer had to disappear, and I got introduced to this game called rugby. But I did captain my soccer teams, I did captain you know, cricket and teams, I ended up captaining Newington in in tennis. So yeah, I suppose you'd you'd say I was a natural leader, I like to talk. One of the interesting things that I mentioned to someone the other day, and I've never really thought about it a lot, but because of my desire to be able to communicate, and because I never felt comfortable wearing a mouth guard, I never wore a mouth guard right through my career. And obviously it's compulsory now, yeah. Um, probably became compulsory 25 years ago. But back in the in the 80s and early 90s, I I never wore a mouse mouth guard. And I think a large part of that was because of my desire as a number nine, right in the thick of things, first use of possession, judgment, decision making is critical, but also as a captain, I just needed to be able to talk. And and so, how did you develop these things through your career? Like I think a lot of it, you know, was bought up and disciplined to you at a young age. I grew up in the Shire, so you know, Guy Mere and then down at Crenulla, spent 30 years there, but got thrown in the pool at a very young age and swam twice a day. So I used to end up uh you know across the harbour there at North Sydney and you know, was lucky enough to win some individual and and relay team New South Wales titles. And so I was a good swimmer. I was I I went down and did nippers and had some great mentors in in surf swimming and and what have you down in in Crenulla and Alura. So one that holds you in good stead, and then when you get that straw hat put on your head and jump on a train for three hours to get to school, I obviously couldn't swim, but I was introduced to this thing called middle distance run, 800s, 1500s, 3000s, cross-country. Yeah. And and again, that's just that discipline that you have. And you know, I was always the fittest bloke in the team, yeah. The wallabies, and that was I wasn't the strongest. I I've never been in a gymnasium in my life, again, going back to the amateur days. Yeah, I mean, sure, I was strong, yeah, but I would have played 10 kilograms heavier if I played in the professional era. But I think it was just that discipline that mum and dad introduced me and my two brothers to. I think the competitiveness is really critical as well. And I grew up as the middle of three boys. Yeah. So as opposed to now when you know we can't get our kids and grandkids off the devices and whatever. I was running around, running into my two brothers under the hills hoist, yeah, that quarter of an acre of backyard in Guy Mere. And Joe, we always put up something, it it meant something to play a sporting game in the background. And we loved golf, yeah. So it might be your best golf ball that you pulled out. So there was a pile of golf balls. I love it. Yeah, the winning was really important. Yeah, and and uh as much as I'm sure I was a decent loser, I hated losing. My wife knew it's one of the things that one of the things that irks me in the modern game of rugby, but also sport, that at the end of a test match, let's say Australia versus England, at the end of the test match, the blokes are spending one and two minutes on the field talking to the opposition, smiling at them. They could have, I mean, they may have lost by 10, 20 points, and I can't work that out. Yeah, I I seriously don't get that. My wife knew that if I lost a test match, don't come near me for two days. Yeah. And it's not because I wasn't a good husband or what have you, it's just that it hurt me that much that I just needed to be on my own often, and I just needed to reflect and and get over it. And you know, by Monday or Tuesday, you're ready to go. That's why I hated post-mortem straight after games. Yeah. When people wanted to dissect the game and what went wrong. You know, I can still remember the great David Brock off coming into the Sydney uni training. I mean, Brock wasn't our coach, but he was a great mentor and he was a great father figure of Sydney University, and coming in and wanting to dissect the game, and I went off my head as the captain. I just couldn't bear it. And and losing has to mean something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I that desire to not die, wondering how good I could be and doing everything to achieve success. I don't have that in the business world. I love doing really well, I love working with a group, good group of people, I love great outcomes. And at the end of the day, it's nice to make a dollar. You can't be a giver if you don't have a buck in your pocket. But I don't have that absolute desire that I had in rugby and in sport to win at all costs. My daughter, conversely, my eldest daughter who works at Regal Funds Management, she's an investment guru. She has that absolute red-hot focus and desire that I had in sport. Yep. That I don't have in business, but there's no doubt it was a critical factor to be able to achieve what I was able to in sport and and very proud of her. It's early days. Yeah. But she works her butt off. You know, the due diligence she does on companies before she invests is phenomenal. The deep dive into management basically strategy execution is fantastic. And she deserves the success. Now, she's been at Regal seven years, she's had good, you know, consistent success. It's early days for her managing her own fun, but she's had a fantastic start. And I'm just comparing her and that steely focus and that desire to do whatever it takes. Yeah. That I had in the sport that I don't have in business, that she's inherited from me and my wife. Yeah. Don't get me wrong, it's not just me, but and I see that because I see that sometimes in her temper. Yeah. And I one of my great faults over the years is is a bad temper. It's I've mellowed. I've mellowed as I get older. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But if it wasn't for that bad temper, I wouldn't have wanted it enough. Exactly. Yeah, totally. What surprises you about high performance?
Speaker 2:How few people achieve it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know so many great sports people that have never gone close to achieving their potential. I mean 99% of people miss out. And probably 10% of those, if they were pre prepared to sacrifice, work harder. And sacrifice is a big word. Yeah. Not many people are. People will take the soft option, people will take the comfortable option. I know so many people, even some of the great players that I played with, never reach their potential. Just because they didn't have that whatever it takes, just to not die wondering how good they could be. They're prepared just to take an easy option. Or you know, and and people who could have played for 10 years. Yeah. They might only play for two or three years.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, one of the things I want to dive into, because you've touched on, which is really interesting, in this in this season, we're talking a lot about how athletes train. And I think that the environment that we see in the wallabies today, you know, in the full professional era, and you see them in the gym day in, day out. And you know, I think some of these wallabies would hardly sleep in their own bed. Because they're always in camps and stuff. Tell us what the what the when you were in the in the wallabies and you were working or a student at the time, what the typical week was like. You mentioned you played two games of footy on the weekend. Yeah, what did it look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, you one thing I recall, you never really got carried away. Yeah. As I said, if you're playing a domestic test, you only got together on a Wednesday, so I'd be at the office on Monday, Tuesday, during the inaugural World Cup, which was played in our backyard and New Zealand. Alan Jones was going to do his broadcasting in the morning. He said to the team, you know, I don't want you going to work, but there was a good bunch of us that were going to work because we weren't just going to sit around the camp at our travel lodge and twiddle our thumbs in the morning, waiting to train in the afternoon. And not making any money as well, right? Exactly. So Alan Jones called me at the office thinking I was there, you know, in the good old days of direct lines. Yeah. And came back and got stuck into me. And I, for the life of me, I've never quite worked out why I didn't respond and say, well, where are you calling me from, Alan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was calling from work. But life went on. Yeah. It wasn't like it was that important. It wasn't like it was it was just something that you fitted into your schedule, which was the rugby. And that's why I love touring. Because you've got to hand out the files to your colleagues and they've got to look after them because you're away for five or six weeks. And so you're not distracted. Yeah. And one of the things we loved about the touring is what we call the on-off button. Yeah. Make sure you turn it on to off because when you go to these great places, whether it's France or Argentina or Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, Italy, enjoy the country, enjoy the hospitality that people will offer you. Enjoy having a drink with them. The only rule we had, and it wasn't chiseled in concrete, was when you got to flick the button from off back onto on, which is basically waking up in the morning, getting ready to go to training, and then you're training. Make sure you haven't done anything when it's on off that's going to, you know, jeopardize preparing to start your stuff.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that to me was always really important. But touring was great because you weren't distracted. When I was in Australia, there are always a million distractions around playing tests at home. And that was because you're worried about your files and yeah, what have I missed? What have I found? And your family and all that sort of thing. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally, totally. Tell me, as a as a you know, no longer athlete, do you do you still keep fit and healthy?
Speaker 2:Oh, look, I I I think I'm fit. When I stopped and and when I went to live in Paris, I I and I try and work out why, but like I used to run a lot on my own. I used to love just going out for a run and it had to be a productive run. Yeah. And so as a middle distance runner, I knew that it's the old adage, no pain, no game. And so I had to make sure I hurt myself. Otherwise, why go out and have a run and if you're not if you're not actually coming back stuffed. So I when I went to Paris in early 95, I I basically I stopped running. And I never really took it up again. But I have been lucky enough that I haven't put on weight. I don't eat a lot. I only eat when I'm hungry. I love a beer, but it doesn't seem to put on weight. I walk a lot. Yeah. You know, I might do some steps and all that just to get the heartbeat going and what have you. But I've just been fortunate that that I've I look fit. I'm not unfit, but I know what fit is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So whilst I can go up, you know, flights of stairs multiple times, and yeah, you get a little bit of the heartbeat up and what have you. I I never get tired, I never get exhausted. I'm you know 63 and a half, so I I'm not I'm not fit, yeah, but I'm not unfit. Yeah, yeah, no. So it's it's Goldilocks.
Speaker 1:So let's let's uh go back to your school days. What would you say to the uh Newington rugby coach that put you in the seconds?
Speaker 2:You made the right decision. Absolutely. Why? Because the bloke in front of me was better. Yeah, okay. Okay, so I captained the A's all the way through, but a terrific bloke called Murray McGain, he was a year older than me. We're in the same year at school, but he was a year older, so he was always in the team above me. And the proof was in the pudding. Newington don't win the rugby very often, but in 1979, which was my last year, we won the GPS premiership. We ended up the last game against Scots at home at Stanmore was to decide who would win, and everyone thought Scots, Scots were the favourites. We beat them 30 points to nil. Yeah, wow. And Murray was terrific. I I think from memory he was the vice captain, he was absolutely the right guy for that team. I captained the seconds, and I was very proud of that. And so there's no doubt that that coach made the right decision. What happened? You know, I was playing, I was captaining the tennis team, I was middle distance running, I was swimming, you know, in in February, March for the school. You know, I was in the cross country or all the other sports. When I went to Sydney University to study law, all those sports got carved off. I no longer played those other sports apart from rugby. I grew a bit, put on a bit of weight, put on a bit of height, and we won a premiership with the Colts team. And it sort of went from there. At the age of 18, I was selected for first grade Sydney uni. I was mentored by some terrific people, a bunch of wallabies, including Michael Hawker. And whilst I never ever thought of pulling on representative jerseys, including the gold one, I never really, it just didn't cross my mind. I didn't want to die wondering how good I could beat the game. And and that meant my bread and butter, which is my passing, my short side game. I started to realize that my decision making was really important because, as often, first user of possession, my decision making is critical. Nine times out of ten, I've got to get it right. And that comes down, Joe, as a scrum half. The most important thing is to know without looking up, you know, you might have your head down the back of a ruck waiting for the ball. But your lateral vision is the most critical thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because that gives you your judgment, your decision making. You know where the black jerseys are, and you know where the gold jerseys are, you know where the space is. The game's about making the opposition make tackles, get them in deep dark places, and create space. And that is effectively what the game is all about. And but then where is the space? Yep. What is the decision making? Now, of course, the people around you have got to help you with that. And that's why I was lucky to have guys like Michael Liner, David Campisi. I knew when they wanted the ball, I knew when they wanted it drifting, I knew when Campo wanted a little chip in be behind. Yep. He was seeing space that I mightn't have seen. But those sort of things are really, really critical. And just getting back to my game, you know, sort of it it was perfecting my game again, never being happy with where I was. I only saw my first test the year before I played one. So I went out to the Sydney cricket ground in 1983 and saw Australia play Argentina. The next year I'm playing one. So you can see that rugby wasn't, you know, a huge thing in my radar when I was a young kid growing up. It was a great winter sport that I played and I played well. But again, there was no huge ambition at a young age.
Speaker 1:So that poses a really interesting question. One of the things, and I I this is sort of it's almost like a question for myself here, is you think of parents now. I think kids are specialising in sport, they're getting very serious at a young age, you know. I coach my son's under 12s, rugby, and and and and there's definitely a lot of pressure on the kids and and that stuff. What advice would you give to parents who have got kids that are really passionate about sport in balancing that?
Speaker 2:Because I think there's a you know I think that word you just used, Joe, is is balance. Yeah. And don't don't overemphasise things. Having a balanced life. Don't put too many eggs in one basket. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with at the ages of 14, 15, 16, looking to perfect your skills, looking to but but don't don't get too wound up in selection. Don't get too upset if you don't get selected. Sure, try and prove uh people wrong, but again, you've got to sort of remember that you know, I think one of the mistakes we can make is that we have too many talent scouts looking at the 15 and 16 year olds. Okay. And you've got to remember there are kids like myself that don't really physically develop until particularly in rugby like physical competition. As I mentioned to you five minutes ago, you know, I grew. It was the important part of then being able to compete physically and and being able to do what I had to do in the the biggest on the biggest stage. So yeah, I just don't get carried away, have a balance in life, work really hard, don't get me wrong, but make sure that, you know, I'm you're swimming and playing tennis and stuff. As I say to parents, yeah, for sure. And I look back at what my parents offered me. That there is absolutely no doubt, if it wasn't for the commitment of my parents, I would never have pulled on that gold jersey. And and I say to parents, I encourage them about, particularly in the business busyness of life now, where we're often two parents have jobs, never ever forget how important it is that commitment that you you have. So it probably means sacrificing time on your devices. It probably means sacrificing a whole bunch of things. But to me, giving your child the best opportunity to chase their dream, and of course it doesn't have to be in sport, it's in a whole multitude of things, but giving them that chance, you know, I've spoken in a million speech days, and one of the things that I say to teachers, because I think teachers often underestimate themselves. So I had some great teachers who helped me in middle distance running, in swimming when I was younger, some great mentors from down at Cronulla Surf Club and still water swimming. And I love to encourage teachers who often think, well, do I really play an important role in a student's, you know, sort of upbringing and the subject that I'm teaching them? I tell teachers at speech days, English went from my worst subject in year nine to my best subject in year 12 because of one bloke who was passionate about teaching the subject and who really resonated with me. And if it wasn't for that guy, there's no chance that that would have happened. And it's the same in sport. You know, I was lucky enough in the national game to have Alan Jones, who, you know, he he he's interesting. We had a 10 years when we didn't talk and we got stuck into each other shortly after I was captain, but we get on particularly well now. But I have no doubt that he bought the best out of me. Jones's qualities were he knew that I needed to kick up the bum, as opposed to say someone like Michael Liner, who was a totally different character, who needed maybe an arm around his shoulder and a comforting at times. Jones knew how to get the best out of the individual. That's what that English teacher knew how to do to me in that classroom. And so I tell people who are coaches, who are mentors, never underestimate how your passion can rub off on people, and also individual tips and advices and the culture that you create. And then I say to the child, have a balance, enjoy, particularly if you're playing a team sport. But at the end of the day, the best players that I ever played with had a work ethic like you wouldn't believe. Yeah. I I call it because it came from my first coach. It's a long story about a young Italian boy who went into the clothing industry. His surname was Gucci.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But the bottom line is absolutely right. And I'm a 63-year-old talking to you. Um, and if I look across any vocation, any sport, you know, music, acting, as I said, any any vocation, skill. It's the the one line that the boy, the young Gucci boy, said to his dad when he said, Dad, I want to use the best of everything. I want to use the best fabrics, the best designers, the best makers. I want to produce this great cloth that people will want to buy. Ladies will want to buy. And the old man said, Son, if you're going to use the best of everything, you're going to have to charge the top price. People won't be able to forge your gear. The boy's response, which Jones got to the young 22-year-old in Wales in 1984, the boy said to his dad, Dad, long after the price has forgotten, the quality remains. Yeah. So on those tours, there were many days when my ass was dragging in the mud, when I'd say to the bus driver or the team, I'm going to run back to the hotel, you guys go off, I'd prefer to do another hour's running. You know, people think rugby touring is just a fantastic way of life. I can assure you that when you're doing that in October, November, December, in the winters of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, and your mates are going to the beach at Bondi, I can assure you it's not all, you know, it's a blood, sweat, and tears. But long after the price has forgotten, the quality remains, I can look back on that career and basically saying I didn't leave a stone unturned. Yeah. And you have that that wonderful quality that remains.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's um perfect segue, because my my question was going to be to sort of talk about coaches, and I feel like you've you've very eloquently covered that off. What have you learned from failure?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, get up, go again. I mean, I we we had some tough losses, and and that inconsistency that I mentioned, you know, the late 80s when I was a young captain, it hurt. And we could be great one week and literally hopeless the next week. And what I learnt, and one of the important things to me is understanding process. That inconsistency, as it turned out, I could talk for 10 minutes about it, but just the thumbnail sketch is that in those early 80s, our problem was we're often desperate to win. And we changed the culture in the early 90s, probably a year before, a year and a half before the the World Cup, so in probably 1990. We took that team and changed the culture from what I'd call scoreboard focused. Every time we got the ball, we were desperate to get the scoreboard moving. Often resulted in errors, mistakes, handing games to the opposition, to a team that understood process. Yeah. And I'm a huge believer in life, and it was learnt in those tough days of the early, late 80s, early 90s that if you get the process right, the scoreboard generally looks after itself. So the last, I think about 23 tests that I played, we won about 20 of them. Wow. We became a hugely consistent team. And you might think, well, what's process, Nick? And it goes way beyond the 80 minutes. But in the 80 minutes, it's what I spoke about with my game as a number nine. Get my passing right, my kicking right, my defense right, my judgment right, my organization of the forwards defense, my captaincy and leadership right. Minimize the errors, trust the 14 blokes around me to do exactly the same. And at the end of the 80 minutes, as difficult as it might be when you're playing a World Cup final, but then look up and see what the scoreboard tells you. And as I said, it goes way beyond the 80 minutes. It goes into everything you do in preparation, it goes everything that you do leading into a game, building culture, building spirit. You know, it took us two years in preparing to win that World Cup. But if you do get that process right, then I found that the scoreboard does look after itself. And so that early failure, that inconsistency we had, you've got to you've got to deal with it. And you know, it's it's it's one of the great things I love about rugby. I talked about my game and you know, the number nine jersey and the individual idiosyncrasies that go into being the best number nine in the world. It's the same in business. You know, I I realised that when I went to become a banker, you you don't want to be everything to everyone. You can't. You've got to work out what you're really good at, what you're passionate about. Surround yourself with people that fill the gaps, that do the stuff that you don't do well. You know, I'll never forget the first day in the legal office in Bly Street, I knocked on the senior partner's door, Mr. Holden. And I said, Mr. Holden, you know me, you know, you've known my grandfather. He was a senior partner here for a long while. You've known me for a couple of years. Can I come in? Firstly, I want to thank you, but can I ask you a couple of questions? He said, Come on in. First question I said, Mr. Holden, what sort of law do you think I'd be good at? Commercial, property litigation, family? I'll never forget his answer. He said, Nick, don't worry about the sort of law, work out what sort of person you are. He said, There's finders, minders, binders, and grinders. And I know exactly what I am. And I've known for 40 years what I am. So don't try and be everything to everyone. Surround yourself with people that love doing the stuff that I don't like doing. I don't like sitting behind a computer all day. I don't, I'm not a financial modeler. I don't know how to do it. I don't like writing credit papers, 30 and 40 pages. Other people do. I like meeting the client. I like trying to originate the deal and then minding the client once we've got them, the finder and the minder. Yeah. So to me, you know, work out what you're good at because of your body's shape if we're talking sport. Yeah. Work out what you're passionate about, yeah. And and damn the torpedoes full speed ahead about squeezing the lemon and getting all the drops out. Yeah, I love that. What are you most proud of? I think my marriage and my family. And I think probably the next thing is that my four children have observed my wife and my generosity of spirit and support of people. To me, that's really important that you pass that baton and then that your kids pass the baton to our grandchildren, but also Angie and I pass it to the grandchildren. I I think, you know, I mentioned that I'm not very good at saying no, I've I've been on a lot of not-for-profit boards. My wife co-founded a big not-for-profit where we do massive events, you know, down at Darling Harbour. For typically 14, 15, 16-year-old students, it's all about hope, resilience, courage. In a tough world where a lot of kids are suffering from mental health, I chair that not-for-profit. Just that's what I'm most proud about, the impact that we've had on other people. And, you know, I mentioned I'm not very good at saying no. The number of people that come up and sort of said, uh, you were at my speech day, you know, 30, 40 years ago, and I always remember T or that that you said. I think the fact that I have put my hand up and done all that, and I have had small impacts that people remember. Yeah. I I think that's what I'm most proud of. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's that's that's really wonderful. A question I uh meant to ask a moment ago, what do you think of the Wallabies at the moment?
Speaker 2:They're improving, it's good, they're great. Before that, when we lost the series to the Lions, and you we all know that Melbourne could have gone either way. Yeah. But I did a couple of functions, uh, including some some work functions, you know, where we had some clients and what have you. And I actually said that to me, this third test is going to be really crucial. Because if I reflect on the 10 years that I had with the Wallabies, I have no doubt the most important test match that I ever played was the third test in New Zealand in 1990. We'd been beaten in Christchurch, we had a close loss at Eden Park in Auckland, so we'd lost the Blederslow, but we went to Wellington. And the All Blacks hadn't been beaten in 18 Ts, which was a world record back then, starting in the 87 inaugural World Cup. And to cut to the chase, we played a fantastic game. We beat them in Wellington, and so we'd lost the series just like our boys this year had lost the Lions series. But that victory in Wellington, just as I think our victory here in Sydney, gives you the mental belief that you can beat a great team on your day, and it was from there that we then started to consistently perform. And I think we're now seeing that consistency return of the wallabies. I think really importantly, they've got a captain who's going to be around for a long time, who's leading them really well, who's inspirational. To me, that is a really important part of this, the emergence of this team. They're starting to get some depth, but most importantly, they're getting some belief. Yeah. And you can see a spirit within the team. You you sense that from a distance. You know, I'm a I'm a long way away from it these days, but you can just sense that preparedness to do whatever it takes for each other. Yeah. And that's something, sadly, that I don't think we've had for a few years. Yeah. It's not that the guys aren't wanting to win, of course I but it's whatever it takes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and you've got to have that together. A question for you as a captain, if you were in Townsville and you were Harry Wilson with the Oxford.
Speaker 2:I would have taken the three points. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Uh but you've got to remember too, when I when I played, you didn't have 14 cameras following the game. I I say that because uh the opposition could have killed a play. Oh, totally. Right, could have been the game. Yeah, exactly. Totally. Because you're playing into extra time, the game would have been over. Nowadays, with all those cameras, referees really acutely following, watching guys for being offside and killing the play, you know, they'll get another penalty as we did. Yeah. And someone will get yellow. Someone will get yellow carted then. And so you're playing 14 or 13 people. So circumstances are slightly different, but no, I I'd think I was a pretty conservative captain in that I would often take three points as opposed to going for touch. But again, you've got to remember in my day, you went for touch, you didn't get the throwing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well.
Speaker 2:You know, there's a lot of things that have changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I I just love the the passion and bravery behind it. It was awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's no doubt, but you've also got to be you've got to have wisdom. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally, totally, totally. You talked a lot about reflecting after losses, and it took you, you know, don't come near me for two days.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't say don't come near me.
Speaker 1:My my wife just knew that's a sign of a good marriage, I think. Yeah. But I think a lot of people, like I think self-awareness is really critical when you're looking at achieving your potential. How mechanically, how did that reflection process work with you and how did you how did you use reflection to get better? Because I I'd love our listeners to get an insight into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, look, I wasn't, I I I didn't really get into postmortems that much. Yeah. I didn't, but I knew you know, you it's you call it the spent arrow. Yeah. You know sometimes in life you you only get one shot at things. You know, I went really close to you wouldn't be talking to me now. I think my life could have been significantly different had we not, for example, come back against Ireland in that quarterfinal. We were the best team in '87, or at least we started that year, and we had this disappointment of not reaching out potential for a whole bunch of reasons, being beaten by the French in that semifinal. I know that if if we hadn't have won that '91 World Cup, I would have gone to my rugby grave bitterly disappointed in that I would have known that we we, again, individually and collectively, never reached our potential. Did we play brilliantly in 91? No. Yes, against the All Blacks in the semi-final. Other than that, you know, we we we should have won it, but we were fortunate to win it. And then my greatest memories, I suppose, were 92 because we went on to confirm what a great team we were. But yeah, the you sometimes need the bounce of the ball, you need things to go well. But if you're a good team, that will happen far more regularly than it won't. But fortunately, you talk about reflections. I don't have to reflect, you know, and and there's basically misgivings, there's the spent arrow that that won't come back. You know, to win that World Cup was really, really important for a whole bunch of reasons. Just and I could go on forever about it.
Speaker 1:No, I I think it was important for Australian rugby, right?
Speaker 2:But the fact that we did, no one can take that from you. And and the great thing is it's a collective and you can share it with yeah, Australian rugby.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What's the best advice you've ever received?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I I I think what that senior partner said to me about not getting into the minutiae about whether you'd be a barrister or a solicitor, and whether you'd be a commercial lawyer or a litigant. It's working out what sort of person you are. And and forming a great team around people who come into whether it's your work environment, whether it's your sporting environment, whether it's your social environment that couples what you do. I think my wife and I enjoy a great marriage partly because we know exactly what we're good at. When we have the grandchildren around, we know we don't have to talk about it. Yeah. What I'll do, what she'll do. I I think that's that's you know one of my strengths that that you fit in well, that you're you're social, that that you look after people.
Speaker 1:Yep. What advice would you give your 16-year-old self?
Speaker 2:I think it's probably more my my 20, 21, 22-year-old self. I think my my regrets are probably that I'm a bit of a a bit of a mental dwarf when it comes to IT stuff. And you know, I I get by I can cope, but I I I wish I had been more disciplined, you know, in the in the my late 20s, my early 30s, when all that stuff came in to to be better at it. Yeah. Um, I think I could have done better in in the workplace if I had more skills in that area. And yet I I think I've blamed the busyness of life for not drilling down more on that, for not learning more about that, for not being as quisitative as I should have been. I think lawyers are looked after so well. Yeah, but well, I support stuff in the old days. You just had the dictaphone. Yeah, totally. And the tape tourell, who was my P A.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the letters had come back. Yeah, exactly right. And you worked off paper. I'm glad you've given me an out.
Speaker 1:No, no, well, yeah, it's it's it's amazing. Like my my wife's a lawyer, and and and you know, when when she started out, there were lawyers that would dictate their emails. And someone would type it and send it on their paper. Or even their emails. Yeah, yeah. And and and and and so, you know, I I Yeah, but that's that's probably the the regret that I've had in life.
Speaker 2:Uh other than that, no, I've I've I've really enjoyed it. But you know, Joe, for the older people listening in, and I still really enjoy talking to older people. I I'm I'm a believer. Hopefully, I've got a third of my life in front of me. Um so I'm 63. I I'm a big believer that what I can achieve in front of me is more than what I've achieved so far. And I really try and encourage older people to have a similar view and and and not be dismissive of that. You know, again, you surround yourself with the right people, yeah, and in all the value add that we can get in the modern world, and then that really goes to impacting other people, when I say that positively. Yeah. And encouraging people that you still have got the best years in front of you. And and I don't see that, you know, sort of lightly. Yeah. No, that's so I'm I'm a huge believer that there's some great things in front.
Speaker 1:Yeah. One one question that again I meant to uh uh ask earlier. You talked about the young player that was nervous. If we were sitting in the dressing room and I was on debut now, and you know, you were captain and the you know, and and maybe I was the reserve halfback or something like that, and I just had the pale, nervous face in the dressing room, what would you say to me?
Speaker 2:Look, I'd say you've done the work. Yeah, you deserve to be here. That that jersey belongs to you. Go out and strut your stuff like you own the place. Be positive. I mean, my first couple of tests because I played inside a bloke called Mark Eller, yeah. My focus was getting the ball into his hands as quickly as I could. Come the Welsh test. The weather is shitty in Cardiff. All of a sudden, as a scrub half, the short side was our friend, was my friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, I played the house down and we scored, you know, three tries down the short side. Yeah, you know, using that. So don't overplay your hand, particularly early on. Do the simple things well, minimize the errors, but remember you've got this jersey because you've earned it. And go out and let your skill set play out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's that's wonderful. Last question always, is there a question you wish I had asked you?
Speaker 2:I in relation to my my sporting career, probably not. I'm just trying to think, Joe. Yeah, I mean probably reflecting on the all blacks and not winning more Blederslows, yeah. That's probably my biggest regret because of we went close, there were some one-pointers. There were four matches in the mid-80s where one point, four consecutive matches, one point separated us and the all blacks. They won three of those. Yeah, if I had if I had things over again, I would have whilst we we won 45% of the games against them, we only won a couple of bladder slows, and and that that disappoints me. I'm delighted that we're able to knock over South Africa a number of times because of the arrogance that they have. Yeah. And if they weren't a part of the 91 World Cup, and I can still remember them coming to us in '92 or coming to me as the captain. And they, of course, knew who we were and saying, Congratulations on what you perceive to be a World Cup. And until you've beaten us, you won nothing. And then we beat them in Cape Town 26-3. They'd never been in the history of Springbok rugby beaten by 23 points. So to be able to say, shove that up, you know, where it belonged. And so the regrets fortunately aren't many. Yeah. But I think the Bled is lows is where I get disappointed. The thing I that we didn't reflect on is what I loved about the game, particularly in the Amateur days. I only played one night game. Yeah. Why is that important? Because you're breaking bread at 5.30 with the opposition, you're having an aftermatch dinner. So the friendship and the mateship that you developed across that decade with people, and those friendships go on for a lifetime. That was really special. We didn't really touch on that. I think the game last weekend at Alliance on a Sunday afternoon against Argentina was popular. Well, that was that was the normal for me. And that was a great thing about it. The French call it La Troisier Mitem, the third half.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And to me, the third half was really special. You know, it's damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead in the 80 minutes, but then it's it's having a beer with the opposition, it's getting to know each other, it's it's becoming great mates that you know hold you in great stead for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, particularly if you move to France to where you want to be friends with the French rugby players, don't you? Nick, so grateful for you sharing your your amazing stories of your wonderful career so generously. Nice to meet you, mate, and hopefully your listeners enjoy it.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nick. One moment that stuck with me was when I asked Nick what surprised him most about high performance. He said, a few people achieve it. I know so many great sports people that never got close to their potential. 99% of people miss out. Nick's perspective is shaped by both triumph and reflection. After winning Australia's first Rugby World Cup in 1991, he and the team didn't settle. They went on to beat the All Blacks and the Springboks in 1992. Next up, cross-country skiing has always held a special place in my heart. I was a successful junior racer growing up and a kid who dreamed of the Olympics. So this conversation feels personal. I sit down with Sevi DeCampo, one of Australia's top country skares, to talk about resilience, identity, and what it takes to keep pushing when no one's watching. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of High Performance with Joe Strange. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nick. What stayed with me was how simple his definition of leadership. Today I chat to Nick Barr Jones. Wallaby's Captain and Rugby World Cup winner. The guy who didn't make the first 15 at high school and went on to lift the Rugby World Cup in 2000. Welcome to episode 3 of season 3 of High Performance with Joe Strange. Today my conversation is with Nick Far Jones, Wallaby Captain and Rugby World Cup winner. Didn't make the first 15 when he was at Newington. He played second 15 that season. Didn't stop him in his progression to winning the Rugby World Cup in 1991. Story is a powerful reminder that high performance a destination, it's a mindset. You enjoy our conversation. Welcome to episode three of season three of High Performance. Welcome to episode three of season three of High Performance with Joe Sprange. Today my conversation is with Nick Far Jones. Former Wallaby captain who won a world. Welcome to the body. So many great sportsmen that never got close to reaching their potential. Perspective is shaped by both time and reflection. After winning Australia's first World Cup in 1991, in settled, neither did the wallabies, and they went on to beat the All Blacks and the Springboks in 1992. Country skiing was always hold a special place in my heart. And when I was a kid, I was a junior racer who one day dreamed of going to the Olympics. My next conversation. Don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode of High Performance with Joe Sprite. You enjoyed our conversation. So many sportsmen that never got close to their potential. 29% of people missed out. Perspective is shaped by both triumph and reflection. The Wallabies won Australia's first World Cup in 1991. And the team didn't settle. Both went on to beat the All Blacks and the Springboks in 1992. Cross-country skiing has always held a special place in my heart. Who dreamed of the Olympics? So next. My next conversation feels personal. I sit down with Sebi DeCampo, one of Australia's top cross-country skiers. Talk resilience, identity, and what it takes to keep pushing when no one's watching. So many great sports people that never got close to their potential. Nine percent of people miss out. By both triumph and reflection. Winning Australia's first Rugby World Cup in 1991 in the team didn't settle on to beat the All Blacks and the Springboks in 1992. Cross country skiing has always held a special place in my heart. Was a successful junior racer growing up. A kid who dreamed of the Olympics. Talk about resilience, identity, and what it takes to keep pushing when no one's watching. Subscribe so you never miss an episode of High Performance with Joe Strange. Today, my conversation is with Nick Far Jones. Didn't play first fifteen at Newington. Didn't stop his progression to