How to Say No Without Guilt: Breaking Patterns and Reclaiming Your Voice | Angela Burk

In this episode, Wendy sits down with Angela Burk, author of The Real Girl's Guide to Midlife. Angela spent decades saying yes to everything—yes to things she didn't want to do, yes to explanations and justifications, yes to everyone else's needs before her own. Then she hit a wall. Not one explosive moment, but a gradual awareness that she'd lost parts of herself in the process of trying to be everything to everyone. So she started saying no. And her life changed.

They explore:

• How saying no is actually saying yes to yourself, and why "no" is a complete sentence that needs no explanation
• Breaking patterns rooted in decades of modeled behaviors and old stories about who you're supposed to be
• The simple power of speaking your truth out loud: even saying it to yourself in an empty room interrupts a thought pattern and shifts your entire trajectory

Angela's philosophy centers on one core truth: you are not broken; you've just been operating from old blueprints. Midlife is an invitation to get real about what's working and what isn't. Rest isn't weakness. Boundaries aren't selfish. Your voice matters. And the messy middle part—the part nobody talks about—is where the actual transformation happens.

Connect with Angela:

Get her book, Real Girls Guide to Midlife: Hot Takes, True Stories, and Fearless Advice from Women Who’ve Lived It & Experts Who Get It: amazon.com/Real-Girls-Guide-Midlife-Fearless/dp/1959009338?tag=syty-20

realgirlsguidetomidlife.com

Instagram: instagram.com/realgirlsguide55/

Referenced in this Episode:

Episode 281: Aging Gracefully Vs. Aging Helplessly | Dr. Sofia Din: buzzsprout.com/1872382/episodes/18782263 

A Widow's Fire: An Intimate Memoir of Heartbreak, Survival, and Moving Forward by Diane Pike Heiler: amazon.com/Widows-Fire-Intimate-Heartbreak-Survival/dp/B0F67HJ3HW

________________________________________________________________________________________

Connect with Wendy:

Linkedin
Instagram: @wendy.harrop
Facebook: Phineas Wright House

Website: Phineas Wright House
PWH Farm Stays
PWH Curated Experience and Travel

Interested in being a guest on the show?
Send your pitch to podcast@phineaswrighthouse.com

Podcast Production By Shannon Warner of Resonant Collective
Want to start your own podcast? Let's chat!

If this episode resonated, follow Say YES to Yourself! and leave a  5-star review. It helps more women in midlife discover the tools, stories, and community that make saying YES not only possible, but powerful.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi friends! This is Wendy Herrup and welcome to the Say Yes to Yourself Podcast. On the Say Yes to Yourself podcast, you'll hear stories from women just like us who are adding the practice of saying yes in their daily lives in big and small ways, and as a result are experiencing the truth that everybody wins when you say yes to yourself. Saying yes to yourself is a graceful unfolding, an intentional becoming of the very best version of you. It is my hope that in these conversations we are able to find our truth and be inspired and empowered to live our very best lives. I'm so excited to go on this journey with you, and I look forward to finding a bit of our own story in each other's. Happy Friday. I hope you are enjoying your ease into the summer. I hope it is full of good, gorgeous things that are bringing you surprise and delight. I am still in Edinburgh this week. It is glorious. I'm having the best time with my clients. We have enjoyed scotch. We have enjoyed high tea. We've enjoyed the castles, the gardens, the restaurants, the yummy sites, the bagpike playing, all of it. It's just been such a delight. And I'm looking forward to this weekend. I'm going to a two-day workshop with Abraham Hicks, and I am meeting my fun, fabulous former podcast guest, Rachel Jackson in Edinburgh. So if you happen to be in Edinburgh this week, please reach out and let's play because this is just a good time. Speaking of a good time, today's guest, we have Angela Burke. She is the author of The Real Girl's Guide to Midlife. She is an award-winning marketing strategist, mother of three, bonus mom to four, and fierce advocate for women reclaiming their stories in midlife. She splits her time between California and Australia with her partner, proving that the best chapters often require a passport, grit, and zero apologies. I think she's one of us, friend. Please enjoy this gorgeous conversation with Angela Burke. Angela, I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled to meet you, Wendy, and really uh flattered that you invited me here.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

It's my pleasure. This is the most fun and fabulous thing I do of all the fun and fabulous things I do. So I love it. I love it. I love the opportunity to meet new friends. Love it. It's the best speed dating that I can think of. I love it. Yes. And I love that although I ask the same question to every single guest, it's never the same answer because they're reaching into their own heart and their own experience for the answer. So it's beautiful and expansive. And I'm loving it. Looking forward to hearing how you are saying yes to yourself in this season. I'm saying yes a lot. Hooray. I knew we'd be friends. What are you saying yes to?

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Well, um, I'll tell you, I just most recently said yes to drum lessons. Cool. So I'm doing that just for no other reason than I wanted to. And then the other thing I think I'm I'm a little bit more discerning to what I say yes to. And I am also learning and embracing the idea of saying no as a full sentence, because no is a full sentence.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yes, it is. And how is that working for you? Because I'm sure all of the listeners straightened up and adjusted their air buds um to hear. Because so much of saying yes to ourselves is saying no to the things that are just not in service to us any longer. And that can be a lot easier of a transition for us than for the people that need to be the recipients of our benevolence and self-abandonment. Um, so how how is that working for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, um, it's actually working really well. And, you know, I think a lot of it just starts with me sort of saying to myself, if something comes up, I don't want to do this. So I say it out loud to myself because I think what that does is the act of saying it out loud kind of interrupts sort of the thinking pattern. And, you know, there there are some things where saying no feels abrupt, but words like I'm not available, that's three words. You know, and and and so, so that is one way to do it. The other thing that I've stopped doing is um following a no with like some dissertation of the reasons why or justifying or explaining why I'm not doing the thing or I'm not gonna be at the place. I don't owe anybody that explanation. I don't, so I'm I I stand really comfortably in that idea. And if no or I'm not available, three words, I have to always count. I'm not available. That's three words.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

It's good too, because that also interrupts. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I'm not available. Okay, three words. The other thing that I've I've started to do as well is if somebody asks me to do something, I'll what I'll say is I can do this. So you might be asking me to do something. I either don't want to do it or can't do it or choose not to, but the choice is on me. Here's what I can do. And if you like that, that's great. And if you don't, that's also great. Right. But you own that decision, so it's working out really well.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I love that. Yeah, and was this just something you were trying out and now it's become a habit? Was there some sort of experience that you had? I mean, yeah, I love when midlife reinvention is a graceful unfolding, but sometimes it is a response to burnout, to just being at the very end of what we can take, and it can be more explosive necessarily, you know, than we desired.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

And and so I I love having these conversations and learning how the whisper got loud enough for you to hear, and then how were you able to integrate and then translate that to the people that are going to be affected?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah. Well, and I think for me, a lot of it was, you know, and I talk about this in the books, um, because it was sort of this gradual like awareness, right? Um, and and it was showing up so, so the awareness was showing up in a lot of facets of my life, but so was the toll that it was taking. And it was, you know, a lot of these things were rooted in these modeled behaviors, these stories that other people told about me or that I told about myself. But what I noticed, and when I got sort of quiet and I was watching and feeling what was happening, you know, it would be showing up in ways where like I would, I would be saying yes to things I really didn't want to do, or I would be holding back my opinions in certain settings, or I would be sort of fearful of asking for what I want or asking for what I need. And so when I just sort of like started to observe these things, I was like, wait a second, something's got to shift here. So it wasn't, you know, any one big moment. It was a gradual, um, you know, and if I go back, it's it's not like even it even happened over a 12-month period. I mean, this is, you know, a decades of just sort of seeing this evolution and watching it and and noticing that I wasn't even familiar to myself. Like I was losing like parts of me. But the saying no thing is a really big one because it just, and I observed it in my behavior. I would, I would say yes to things I wanted to say no to, or I would, I would almost find myself seeking for seeking permission to sort of opt in or opt out, or like apologizing and like these long explanations about why I couldn't do something or why I couldn't be somewhere or why I didn't want to work on this project or why a deadline was whatever it was. And I was like, wait a minute, this is exhausting. Like I am tired, and I don't owe anybody all of this. And so, you know, that was a big one for me, the the idea of just being comfortable saying no, being really confident about, you know, expressing opinions. You know, I don't agree. Three words. Another big one is I rest, rest. Okay. So if I go back 10, 10 years, 15 years ago, new mom, had kids, busy career, a husband, life was just overtaking me. The idea of me looking around and going, I need a break, felt like a weakness. It felt like I was lazy. Yeah, like that's kind of messed up. So it's, you know, I I wish, you know, I I wish, well, I don't know if I wished, but it's it was no one big sort of explosive moment, but it was just this becoming aware of all of these things showing up in almost every facet of my life. And me just sort of recognizing, you know what, enough, enough, and something's got to change, and it needed to start with me.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Right. Oh, thank you for that. As you were talking, I was recalling how that kind of played out for me. I don't think I was saying yes to things that I wanted to say no to, I think I was just forever hopeful that my yes was going to have a different result from the person that I was doing all these things for. And I think that, you know, as a firstborn girl, I my my displays were very performative, and no one was ever mad at me for doing everything and doing it well, and right, you know, making new recipes and making it even prettier than last time. And and I liked that, I liked the accolades of that, and that was fueling me. But the person that well, two so many failed premises in this experience, but yeah, I was looking for the accolades from the person that was not available to give them to me.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

And I made that my quest: do it better, do it more, do it harder, do it prettier, do it with even less negative complaining than the no complaining that I was, you know. It was it was so fascinating to watch myself in this song and dance for an audience that doesn't like musicals. Right, oh that's a good analogy, yeah. So and and then to recognize that and at the same time of recognizing what it even means to have agency. So to know that, oh, I've been waiting for this person to give me permission to live the life I want, and actually I give my I'm her. I give my permission. Yeah, and then once that unfolded, it's like, oh, like you mentioned, I'm not available, three words. I I had a bit of a different reframe of I'm only available for what delights me, for what is expansive to me, what feels good to me. And if that was also an up level for those around me, fantastic. But I was no longer making it my job for them to have a fabulous experience. And the last thing I will say about that is they never tasked me with that job. I did that myself.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Correct. You know, there's so much in that. So I want to just touch on that point too. You know, so many of us women carry these loads that we were never asked to carry. We tasked them with ourselves. And somehow, I know for me personally, if I just take my career as an example, my capability, right, to take on hard things, to solve hard problems, to fix broken things, to build things that had never existed, and my capability there became my currency. And it became the things that I was known for. But if you kind of take that thread and you apply it to the whole, you know, this idea that, you know, midlife is not necessarily a crisis, but it's some sort of awakening or it's some sort of reclamation, there are signs that that we, I, and many of the women that I talked to for the book, um, sort of noticed that were the triggers to say, hey, something's got to change. And for me, you know, those signs were rooted in this idea that like my life didn't really feel like mine anymore. I sort of didn't recognize a lot of the parts about me that actually made me me, the very best parts. And they were kind of rooted in sort of decades of unlearning these truths, right? Um, and these beliefs, things like for me and for many of the women that I talk to, things like you're not enough as you are, or saying no somehow makes you makes too many people uncomfortable. Right. So your job is to contort yourself and to be the steady thing that is responsible for everybody else around you.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Well, they're moving targets.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Well, yes, your steadiness has to also balance all of that. Correct, because we exist to make others comfortable. And so if we're doing it well, yes, yeah. And and that's the thing, like, and I noticed that, you know, through talking to these women and and who were so gracious to share their stories, as well as bringing in the experts, I think some of the things that were the most surprising and liberating that were reaffirmed for me is that you know, many of us are this behavior is modeled. Somehow we're rewarded by keeping the peas, playing small, making it pretty, keeping it easy, and and always raising the bar for that, right? And and I noticed for me too, a lot of that came at the at the expense of me. Like somehow, if I were to inject a want or a need or a desire, and I was gonna prioritize that on the list, it meant that everybody around me was gonna suffer. Right. Like, how do I carry that? Yeah, I don't want to carry that.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

You're selfish and ungrateful, and you're selfish and ungrateful, even though all you're doing is the I mean, I can't think of a better word than bidding, but the requests of everyone around us. Correct. And again, we weren't living uh with a serial killer that we were afraid was gonna like it's was it's all inside our head based on our conditioning and the stories because it's so in service and so pervasive, yeah, no one's mad that we're setting ourselves on fire to make sure everyone else is warm.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

No, nobody gets mad about that. And and I do think that there is, you know, there's a lot of the biological things that that are shifting for us hormonally. I think that there's a lot of just sheer exhaustion.

unknown 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Because when you do this for so long, like your your body, your mind, your spirit, your emotional, your nervous system, there is a capacity limit. And and also, you know, for me, it was to that was this idea that I was somehow modeling a behavior for my boys. I didn't, you know, a pattern that I did not want them to have to repeat in the same way that I did. Sure. So, you know, one of the stories that I remember I held on to really deeply was this idea of, you know, this intact family. I I married their dad, we were building a life. And was I happy? No. Was he happy? No. Could we be happier other in other ways? Yep. But I was so white-knuckling this idea of keeping a family intact because I thought that that's what my boys deserved. But in actuality, what they deserved was a happy mom and a happy Angela. And I don't think that they ever really knew me.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Right. And like that, we get to redefine intact. Yes. Like you being your full self and him being his full self, that is a family intact. You just don't live at the same address.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Correct. Correct. And there is no like rule book. We're not being judged on what's right or what's wrong, but with a lot of that de redefinition comes the fear and the embarrassment and the guilt and the shame. And it's all layered on. And change is somehow defined as bad and a failure. And and hey, sometimes change is just different, and sometimes different is d just different. And also failure is a perception. And if we fail, cool. There's good things that come on the other side of failure. And and is the process through which you have to go painless? No. Is it clean? No, but it's messy. But but do you get through it? And the answer is yes. And it starts with just little tiny steps, but you know, it's hard when you're in it, it's hard to kind of see through the messiness, um, and and trust yourself and trust the process and and you know, and and see through those curves. And that's I think why some of us get so much. Because these just play these stories just play over like a tape, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yes, and even stuck in the indecision to make the change. So for me, my divorce started about, well, I mean, it probably started about 22 years before it happened, but yeah, you know, hindsight is 2020, of course. But I sat in the question of my marriage for about nine months.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

And that was because I didn't even think it was an option because he wasn't beating me or cheating. So death by a thousand paper cuts, that one's not in the Bible. So I mean, I thought it wasn't, it actually is. Yeah, yeah. That's a whole nother show. Um, I I really I sat in that question and I committed to uh morning practice and connecting, finding alignment for myself, what that felt like, all of those things. Then the courageous conversation, which set both of us free, even though you know he was mad, but literally 30 seconds of mad and then oh, okay, well, here's this, and the 401k is this, and the judge is gonna make me give you this.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I was like, Yeah, yeah, wow, okay, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Then, you know, three and a half years of divorce settlement, and yeah, yeah, finally divorce. All that to say, in those nine months of sitting in the question, in that anchoring into my own personal alignment, in identifying what I am available for, which for me was just an easier spin than what I'm not available for. Totally. I was able to realize that I get to decide how this goes, I get to own my experience. And so I decided I'm gonna have the best divorce that has ever been had. And he's gonna have whatever one he's gonna have, but I'm gonna have the best one. And I should have said the shortest, but I didn't. I said the best. And I'm really grateful for the woman I became in that process. But all of that. Say is that I didn't know what I was capable of until I made the first decision. And then I was given what I needed to take the next step and the next step and the next step. And when people would, you know, ask me about him or something, and I would say, Oh, you know, we're in the process of a divorce. And they would immediately say, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And I would say, No, congratulations. Oh, oh, congratulations. Okay. So we we have this opportunity to create a new narrative around everything that's happening. And it requires zero buy-in from any spectator except for you.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah. Well, and there's so much in that that I think is really important and kind of threads to some of the things that I talk about in the book. And that is this idea that sometimes, you know, to even recognize that you kind of have to pause and just look at what's happening. And then, you know, if you if you have a feeling or a need or a desire that is bubbling to your conscious, it's like, okay, I need to say this out loud to myself. You don't have to say it to anybody else. But the act of saying something out loud to yourself, making a decision, making a declaration, it that breaks a thought pattern. It interrupts a pattern. And and in so doing that, right, it's it's a simple thought that you translate into a sentence that you say out loud. That is the start of a plan. And I think some of us, and I know for me, I'm a process gal. I love a good plan, I love a good scenario, I have to have every scenario baked out. I got to marinate in the worst case scenario, and then I build myself out. That's just how I'm wired. But, you know, even the act of going, hey, I'm not happy. Hey, I could be happier. Hey, I'm not satisfied with with what is happening in my life right now, saying that out loud, to I'm in an empty room. That's all I have to do is say it out loud to myself. It changes the pattern of thinking. And then I, you know, that is the starting point. That that's starting. So it's do you have to have a perfect plan? Nope. Do you have to have the next 12, 24, 18, 36, 48 months planned out? Nope. But you've started it. That small act of keying into something is not right. I need, want, desire, something, and saying it out loud to yourself in an empty room, like that is the start. And that's forward movement. And that to me is where the trajectory can totally do a 180.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Right. Right. Oh, thank you for that. That's so beautifully said. And I understand that these decisions, whether you're completing with a marriage or a job or just a pattern that's no longer sustainable, the process is simple, but it this is not easy. This is we're retraining ourselves. And what makes it easier is to not expect perfection, to not expect that you're not going to come up against your growth edge and do something incorrectly, and all of this stuff, but that's the momentum and the support, yeah, and that alignment, like knowing what you want, which you can say it in the empty room, feel how that lands in your body and where that lands in your body, and is it what needs to be tweaked about it? And you know, so much of that is not well, I really need I'm not happy, and I need him to change that uh we can't go there. It's I'm I want, I could be happier, I want more, and I and it's only what I want, regardless of what anyone else is doing and moving toward that. Yeah, what was the process like for you in writing the book? What was the what did you want to communicate? I mean, it's so beautiful, just even the title alone, The Real Girl's Guide to Midlife. It's like, oh my gosh, yes, please. This can be required reading, even though just to know that there is a guide. Yeah. Um, how what was this process like for you?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, well, I'll I'll um go back in time about 20 years. So I actually have this book idea when I was 35. And it was going to be called The Real Girl's Guide to Over 35. Because at that point, I was really struggling. I was a new mom. I had two kids. Two of my three were born then. I was in a marriage that, you know, was it going to go the distance? I don't know. I was at a career crossroads, unbeknownst to me, my hormones were already starting to change at that time. My appearance, like nothing tragic, but like, you know, you hit in your mid-30s and like things just are a little different. Yeah. And I was looking around and I was like, man, everybody seems to have everything together. Everybody's so shiny and happy. And then I was kind of thinking, okay, it must be me. I'm the crazy one. This all must be in my head. Who, you know, like I am I'm ungrateful for sort of questioning all these things. But I started to put this book idea together. And I knew that I wanted it to be some of the big questions that I had. I knew I wanted other women to share their story and their findings and their experiences. And I knew that I wanted experts to weigh in. So I built a folder. It's like, you know, those old-timey like file folders? Yes. Mine was red, and I put everything into a folder. And then that folder got buried literally and figuratively. And so in December of 24, I retired and I was pivoting to uh consulting, doing that part-time, but I found the folder is basically what happened. And I opened the folder and I was like, well, look at that. Uh turns out a lot of the things that I was struggling with then, I still am. Turns out that some of the things that I was struggling with, I've kind of come out the other end of. And I had a whole new host of things that I wasn't even aware of 20 years ago that I am now struggle city with. So then I was like, okay, cool. Because I still was looking around and I was like, nobody's talking about this stuff. And I love, look, I love a good before and after. Okay. I love a good, oh, everything was like really bad. And then after, look at me. But there's a lot of shit, there's a lot of crap in the middle. It just is messy. So I was, I couldn't find that. You know, we weren't talking about a lot of the things. And I talk, I go deep. I go, I get real, real in the book. I go deep. I'm very unfiltered. I am very raw. Because I needed help. I needed to surface these things because nobody was talking. And then the other thing I realized was like, look, I love that Halle Berry is talking about menopause. I love that Naomi Watts has written a book and is selling some products. But guess what? I'm not those women. I'm just a gal that's trying to figure this stuff out, literally batting away new symptoms, occurrences, revelations, you know, whatever on a daily basis. I'm dealing with changing in my parenting as two of my kids are adults. I'm dealing with a relationship that has been the best relationship of my life, but that is formed with a man who lives in Australia. I live in California. Like nothing looks like I thought it was gonna look. And I was like, that's what I need. I just need real stories. And I need I need affirmation. I need to be affirmed that I am not alone. I never was.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

I am enough. I always was.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I am not crazy because I was never falling apart. It was never in my head, and it still isn't. And that process of writing the book, and I'm not a writer, but I opened the folder, I was like, okay, I can I can do this.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

You are a writer. I am now published author.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I am. Um, but back then I wasn't. And so I, you know, I went through a couple months too of kind of going like, oh, who am I to do this? What, why should I, blah? And the the good news was like that that thought process is still there, but I short, I it was shortened like considerably. And I quickly, quickly got through the you know, the the same, like, oh, who might have think I could do this? And should I what did you do that? I well, I uh those things like I I keyed into them and then um I sat with it and I was like, okay, what what is this all telling me? And then I just decided, why not me? That's right. Why not me not to do this? Right. And so I started writing and I had rules for myself. One of them was I was only gonna I started writing only 45 minutes a day. And then it became, as I was in this process, I would write for only 45 minutes at a time. And the reason why is I found that anything more than 45 minutes, I would go back and rewrite what I wrote and I would start to edit it because I would go, oh, I'd soften it, or I'd go, oh, I can't say that. Or I'd go, oh, you know, the person that I'm writing about, how are they gonna receive what I'm writing? And I thought, I'm not doing that. I spent decades of my life editing myself, softening my opinions, being fearful of saying the things that were really happening to me and how I felt about them. So 45 minutes was the magic. And then about yeah, because I just I found myself then going back and I'm like, nope, not gonna do it. So it was that discipline. Yeah. And so then I um started the Substack in June of 25. So started writing in April of 25, started the Substack in June of 25, and it was really like I had no big master plan. It was like, oh, I'll just get feedback on my writing and see if anything that I'm writing is remotely interesting and isn't entertaining because I really did want to do this. And the other thing that I realized through this process was, you know, a lot of why I wrote the book when I did was to model things that I tell my boys, one of which is we finish what we start. And if we're gonna take a risk in life, always bet on ourselves. So those two things were really important that I show them. I can't just tell them, but I have to show them. And as I got through the process, I was talking to somebody and I said, Hey, I really want to have this book published within one year of my retirement. And I got like a chuckle from this person. They were like, Well, you'll be lucky if you get a manuscript done. And I'm like, Well, you don't know me, right? So watch it. So I had the manuscript done in July. I decided I was gonna move to self-publishing in August. I got an editor, we worked on that process, and I'll tell you what, that book was available and launched on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all the sites on December 10th of 25, which was one year. That was my one-year retirement anniversary. Congratulations. Thank you. Amazing. I did the thing, you know, and and through that process, was I scared? Sure. And every time I put out even a substock now, I always think, oh man, this is gonna be the one, you know? And it's just been really affirming. And I think even the structure of the book, right? Like getting so many women who gave me their stories to tell, like I do not take that lightly. And as I started eliciting expert opinions, I was thinking to myself, who's gonna want to talk to? Like, I'm not an author here, right? So that was one thought. The second one is um, I had like two or three backup plans in the event that I did not get stories and I didn't get expert opinions. So I again I go to the worst case scenario, right? I got to marinate and that. So, and it was so amazingly gratifying and humbling. And I don't take any of that for granted, that that so many people raised their hand and said, Yes, me too, and I want to be a part of this. So, like I cannot even express my gratitude on that.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

How did you find these women to share their stories for the book?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

So, some of them were people that I knew, which you know, and as I started to tell more people that I was writing this book and I started to write my Substack, it was like the law of attraction. People and women were coming to me going, oh my gosh, like I'm not the only one. And oh my gosh, look at my story. And what about this and what about that? So I was flooded. But then um, there's a couple of resources that journalists and writers can use and tap into um for the purpose of putting out a request or a set of queries. And then, you know, people like mine these requests that come up on a daily basis and they volunteer their points of view. And and I, again, I sort of thought like I'll put these requests out there, but I'm an I'm an I'm not a published author at this point. Like, this is ridiculous. And I was inundated, absolutely inundated with the with the richest, most personal and most gracious and deep and meaningful content from experts. I had uh attorneys and financial experts, psychologists, therapists, life coaches, grief coaches, and women across the world who were just giving their perspective and their sharing their experiences. And I was like, I cannot believe this. It was really, really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

I love that for you. I love it for them, I love it for me hearing it, I love it for our listener because you you're not the only one with the soundtrack going on and on about how you're not qualified to do what you're doing. Yeah, and your request gave the opportunity for another woman to shut her ears to that limiting belief and share her voice and her expertise and her wisdom that which buoyed you up, which buoyed her up, and then we are saying that we are all in this together and that we do have a voice, and that this collective uprising is not, I mean, it's scary, it should be it. This divine feminine rising, like it is as scary as it sounds, yeah, in the sense of what is not in alignment with that tsunami of love, it will be destroyed. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and and it's time, so that's all good, but there's something so beautiful that I'm sure it's not new, but I feel new to the game of this collaborative, beautiful tapestry of women that are using their voices, using their experience, using their platforms, using their microphones, and finding each other, finding this community inside of that. It's so gorgeous that I feel like the game plan was isolation because it made us feel like we were the only ones and that we were crazy and that we were selfish and ungrateful and all the things, and it only took one shared story, leaving that exchange with uh oh my gosh, me too. Yeah, and then it changed everything.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

You're right. It because this the system is designed to keep us quiet, you know. For many of us, it's designed to keep us easy and quiet and small and shrinking, and just you know, the comfortable, steady, safe place for everybody. And I I did, I did find that, you know, the the more I shared, the more women who shared with me, and the the stronger we all got collectively, because you do, you lose these soundtracks of I'm alone, I'm the only one. And there's something that very honest about the messiness and the vulnerability that comes from just saying it's not perfect, and it's not, and and I'm gonna tell you what it felt like to be in it. And so, what's also interesting is I was having this conversation with my youngest son, who is 15, and we I was going back and forth about the name of the book, actually. And he's like, Mom, here he is. I just have to, you know, six foot, 15-year-old boy, okay, third, third son. He and I are, you know, we spend a lot of time together, my little one and me. And so I'm like hemming and hawing about this book. And he said, you know, I don't know why you don't call it the real girl's guide to over 35, like you wanted to initially. And I was like, little dude, like I'm way past that. He's like, mom, this book will help so many women who are in their 30s, like, and you're teaching them how to do it. And so, you know, that is kind of what got me to this idea of midlife, and then even the graphic on the book, which is so beautifully done, it encapsulates this idea that, hey, midlife is not a magic decade. Right, it is not a point in time, it is the collective experience. And it's for anybody, any woman, anybody who's going through these transitions where you're feeling something is shifting. What is shifting? And then how do I pay attention to that? And so I have sisters who are much younger in their 30s, and I like to say that I am their crash test dummy on a lot of things. But the fact that they are there's kernels of what they're reading and what they're hearing me talk about, that it might not be their experience today, but it could be their experience in a year or two, or it's giving them the courage to go, hey, you know what? Now that you talk about this, my cycle is changing. I'm gonna go to my doctor and I'm gonna just let my doctor know. Having not had the collective voice and hearing, hey, it's never too early to pay attention to this stuff, that's giving them the confidence to go, no, no, no, I'm not gonna sit back and assume that it's nothing until it's huge. I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about it now. So I do think that there is something very magical, not only about what is happening now and how the women in their 30s and 40s who are white knuckling a lot of stuff can benefit. But what was also reaffirmed for me in writing this book is I had the pleasure of working with women who were in their 60s, 70s, and even 80s. And the oldest real girl in the book is a woman, her name is Diane Heiler. She herself as an author, she wrote a book about grief, which I highly recommend everybody should read this book. But she did it in her late 70s after losing her second husband. And it was a her process of going through this grief and realizing, oh my gosh, like I want to write about it. So keyed into a new element of creativity at that point in time, went on to find new love in her early 80s. And I interviewed her for the book. She's one of the interviews that I have in the book. And one of the last questions I asked her was, What has been the most surprising thing about finding love in your late in your 80s? And she said that the parts basically that the parts still work and I like it. And I decided in that moment that is what I want. So if I get to any of these decades coming forward, I have a new foundation that I am building today. And if I decide at 80 that the parts still work and that I like it, I'm gonna make that so for myself. You know, I don't need permission, I don't need to be embarrassed, I don't need to be weak, I don't need to be anything about that. I need to own that experience for myself. And so it's not like it just ends in your 50s, right? It is a new reality. I hope not. We are building a new foundation. And so imagine what our 60s are gonna look like. Imagine what our 70s are gonna look like. And for all of us, let's let's hope we get to be like Diane and be thriving in always, yes, always in our 80s, because that's what I want.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Yeah, for sure. Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful, and thank you. Well, I want Diane on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

I think you need to talk to her. She is a queen, she's she is a queen, honestly. And uh this woman, her perspective, her inspiration, her validation, her affirmations have changed me. Yeah, so I feel so blessed to have met her through this process. I never would have met her if not for this process.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Your yes has unlocked so many hows. Yes, it's just so beautiful and continues to do so. Yeah. Besides Queen Diane, was there anything else that surprised you in this process about just what women were talking about and like how it's on the mind of the collective, but not on the tongue of the collective?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Yeah. I mean, I think um a few things surprise me. Number one, that so many of us have a lot of these stories and these tapes that we are. Trying to unlearn. A lot of them are rooted in similar threads. So that was maybe not surprising, but certainly affirming. And that there's no one experience. There's no one right way to do this. There's no one recipe or prescription that's going to work for everybody. And so the fact that I was getting so many different stories and experiences just made us all a little bit smarter to go, there is no one way. And if this thing doesn't work for you, do something else. And one of the things that it did for me personally was, you know, I it was right about the kind of the summer of my writing journey. I was talking to an expert who is also in the book. It was right about the time that the FDA was doing their big um evaluation of the black box label on vaginal estrogen cream. And it was also the time where I was really struggling with a new wave of postmenopausal symptoms that were completely unlike anything I had had experienced in my prior postmenopausal period. A whole new set. And so I was talking to her, gave me the language to go, I need to go to my doctor. Like I'm unsatisfied with what is happening for me. And a lot of it was like bladder, a lot of it was my libido. But I went to my doctor and I said, hey, this is what's happening. And basically, doctor that I had for almost 30 years looked at me and she's giving me the sympathetic, you know, head nod. And she's like, Yeah, it's terrible, isn't it? And I thought, uh, yeah, it is. Um, that's why I'm here. Right. And then I explained the libido situation, which I, you know, I was really trying to explain it to my partner, and I didn't have the language. And I'm just like, something's changed, and I I don't know what it is, but I don't like it. I don't like it. And then, and she knows my partner lives in Australia. Okay. My my man lives in Australia. I'm in California. What she said to me in this appointment was, well, sounds to me like you and your your man need to go on more dates. Oh, goodness. And I thought, are you kidding me? So that happened just as I interviewed Chris Amato for the book, another expert. And one of the last things she said to me was, if you are getting gas lit by your doctor, find a new doctor. Right. Right. So all these, it was like divine timing, all these things come together. And I'm sitting here and I'm looking at this woman who has delivered my babies. Like you have taken care of me at my most vulnerable. And I'm telling you, something's changing. And your advice to me, which is putting all the responsibility back on me again, like everything else in life, to go on more dates with my man who lives 8,000 miles away. Cool. Thanks, but no thanks. And that was the end of it. Last time I saw her, found a new doctor, put a whole new set of possibilities available for me in terms of treatment that I I had written off as I raw dog the entire my whole menopause journey, and my life has changed because I fired my doctor. And guess what? I have new medicine that I'm on, the libido's coming back. I I'm sleeping better. Like all these things were changed in that moment. And yeah, would I have probably been dissatisfied with that answer? Yes. Would I have eventually gotten around to trying to probably. But that timing, the fact that I was writing this book, I met Chris, her last line if you're getting gas lit and not getting answers, find a new doctor. And it gave me everything I needed. And that changed my entire experience. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

And thank you for sharing that. Because I think we we hear this over and over and over again, and that it's like, oh well, that's menopause, or oh well, yeah, that's that tracks with what my textbook says or whatever. It's like, okay. Yeah. I didn't go to med school and I have the same information you did. Like, what are we gonna do here? Yeah, what are we gonna do here? Yeah, and and sometimes that is not the room where we're gonna get the answers that we need. And you know, that leads into a conversation I don't necessarily want to have about our healthcare system. But I had a really great conversation on the podcast. Um, and the the doctor's name is escaping me, and it will come to me, and Shannon magically will put it in the show notes. Amazing! I love it, but she was so great at explaining. Oh, Wendy, our health insurance monster is for navigating illness. Yeah, you are navigating wellness, yeah. It's it's a really good frame. It's a different building, it is a different building, and it's not covered by your health insurance, yeah, and that's okay, yeah, because you're feeling better and you're generating wealth, like this is it's okay, it's not. I mean, there these narratives that your practice of saying it out loud is so brilliant because some of these things make a lot of sense when they're on replay in our head, but they lose all their power once they fall out of our mouth and are outside of our body. Like, oh, if it's not covered by insurance, it's a not real medicine. Yeah, that's bullshit, yeah. B not available for me because I'm just a single mom entrepreneur, flower farmer doing my best, and I can't invest in my body until my credit card balance is zero. Like, what nonsense, loopy thing that goes on, and that like all of these things, all of these narratives, every single narrative gets to be questioned by the woman that you are now. Correct. And we are just going to start saying these things out loud and then recognizing, oh, oh, that I actually don't believe that. Or I'm gonna say something out loud, and you're gonna say, Oh, say more about that.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Yeah, please. Uh, I've been feeling the same way. I need to learn. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I think, and it is the practice of just saying it out loud, um, to yourself in an empty room. That changes that that simple act and that simple sentence or whatever it is that you say out loud to yourself in an empty room can change everything.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Yes, and then you become more available for the things that you want to say in front of someone else. Yeah. Also, because I um am reminded a few months ago, my dear friend Sharon is a she's a women's empowerment coach, but she also has a degree in interior design. And so she like helps you define your next chapter, and then she comes to your house and creates the space that supports the woman you're becoming. Yep. And as we were doing different rooms in my house, we were in my bedroom, and she was like, Oh, say more about this bed. And like, oh yeah, Keith built it and it's very heavy and it can't, it can't leave, it has to be here forever. And she was like, Hmm, say more about it. Did you just hear that? Yeah, and I was like, Well, no, he built it and he said when he built it, like, this bed stays with the house, like it can't be taken apart. And she was like, hmm, does that make sense if he put it together? Do you think it could be taken apart? And I was like, my mind was blown. Like, wait, I have to sleep in the bed that my ex-husband built. What's three? Like, oh my god. So some of these stories are so entrenched, yeah, and they're just not in service.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

They're just not in service. And I think, you know, it is the the the simple act of just saying something out loud. And if you just pause and listen to yourself, it's like, okay, is that who I am today? Not who I was 20 years ago, not who I was two months ago, but who I am today, and also not who I and maybe fueled by, hey, I don't have a per a clear perception, but who do I want to be? Is this in line with who I want to be? Yeah, moving forward. And if the answer is no or yes, like own it, sit in it, stand in it, or scorch it.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Right. And it doesn't mean that it wasn't the right decision then. No, it's just no longer in service. It's okay. And that's that's okay. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. I could talk to you all day long. I know for this beautiful conversation. You're so gentle. Please tell everyone where they can find and follow you, how they can get their hands on the book. Yeah. All things.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Absolutely. So Substack is RealGirlsguide to Midlife.com. I write about two or three times a week. The book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, uh, bookshop.org, all the places that you love to buy your books, Real Girls Guide to Midlife. I've got companion tools that are available to just kind of take everything that we talk about in the book and help you just start working on some practices that are super small, but um things that you can own and do on your own. And I am just so thrilled. And I'm on the socials too, which is just that's a whole other beast in and of itself. Man, humbling on a daily basis. But you can find me on Instagram at RealGirlsGuide5. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Thank you so much, Angela. Thank you for this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Loved it. Thank you for having me, Wendy.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. As always, any links or notes mentioned can be found at PhineasRighthouse.com in the podcast section of our site or in the show notes below. And if you haven't connected with me personally, come find me on Instagram at PhineasWrighthouse and let me know you listened to this episode. I'd love to get to know you. Thank you for sharing this time with me. I know your days are full, and I'm really grateful that you chose to spend some of your precious time right here. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any of these delightful conversations. I'll see you next week.