Leaving the Church & Finding Your Own Voice | Joni Woods

Joni Woods spent nearly 20 years as a youth and young adult pastor before leaving both her marriage and the church that shaped her. Now an author and corporate consultant, she joins Wendy to talk about what it actually takes to trust yourself when the people around you don't agree with your choices. 

They explore:

• Why "anchoring down" on your own reasons matters more than winning an argument, especially when family, faith leaders, or an ex-spouse are working hard to change your mind
• The difference between grace that heals a relationship and grace that's used to justify staying in something harmful
• How writing through a contentious divorce turned into a book meant to give other people language for what they're not ready to say out loud yet

Joni's story isn't about rejecting faith. It's about redefining what alignment with it looks like on her own terms. Her decision to leave didn't come with anyone doing it for her or with her, and that's exactly the point: the anchoring has to come from inside.

Connect with Joni:

Get her book, Burned, Blocked, and Better than Ever: A Raw Journey of Healing: amazon.com/Burned-Blocked-Better-Than-Ever/dp/B0FGCXZBHX?tag=syty-20

Instagram: instagram.com/authorjoniwoods

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/joniwoods

Website: JoniWoods.com 

Referenced in this Episode:

Coffee Chat with Joni: https://youtu.be/AC4ZlMAzeGM

The Vow Series: imdb.com/title/tt10222764/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi friends, this is Wendy Harrup, and welcome to the Say Yes to Yourself podcast. On the Say Yes to Yourself podcast, you'll hear stories from women just like us who are adding the practice of saying yes in their daily lives in big and small ways, and as a result are experiencing the truth that everybody wins when you say yes to yourself. Saying yes to yourself is a graceful unfolding, an intentional becoming of the very best version of you. It is my hope that in these conversations we are able to find our truth and be inspired and empowered to live our very best lives. I'm so excited to go on this journey with you, and I look forward to finding a bit of our own story in each other's. Hello, beautiful friend. Welcome back to the podcast and happy Friday. I hope you have big plans this weekend. I hope you are living your uh best summer of your life. Uh so good. We are um in France. We have been accepting furniture deliveries, and it's so fun just to watch this space come to life in a way that feels resonant with Liz, with me, with what we want for this property, for the women that will come and experience retreats here. All the good things. It's so fun. And this is just fun. And I want to know how you're having fun. I want to know how you're saying yes to yourself. Please hit the fan mail link in the show notes and tell me how you're saying yes to yourself or send me a DM on Instagram or an email, like what, however, however, you usually talk to me, I want to know. Um I'm so appreciative of your journey and I am cheering you on from here. I am also thrilled to cheer on today's guest. We have Johnny Woods. She is a certified life coach and relationship specialist who helps people break toxic patterns and create emotionally healthy connections. After leaving a 15-year marriage marked by silence and pressure to perform, she began her own path of healing, learning to stop changing herself to please others and uncovering the beliefs that had kept her in unhealthy relationships. Her book, Burned, Blocked, and Better Than Ever, shares that journey in a raw and often humorous way, offering guidance on recognizing patterns, setting boundaries, and showing up authentically in love and life. I enjoyed this conversation with Johnny so much. We've done a coffee chat. We have more coffee chats on the calendar because we discovered we had quite a bit in common, especially our upbringing in the church, and we are sharing some expansive conversations and new understandings over on the YouTube channel. So I will link that coffee chat in the show notes as well. Actually, sweet, fabulous. Shannon will do that. Thank you, Shannon, for being sweet and fabulous. I appreciate you. And I appreciate you, listener. And I hope you enjoy this wonderful conversation with Johnny Woods. Johnny, I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Even how all the timing has worked out. I know that there's something special that is meant for the listener. I feel like that all the time anyway, but just the cooperative components that have come together for us to be talking right now.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

I just want to be mindful of that. So I know you were already going to bring your A game and no pressure, but I'm very, very glad you're here. Thank you. Me too. I'm so excited. I'm so glad. So I would love to start by knowing how are you saying yes to yourself in this season?

SPEAKER_02 4:42

It's actually a perfect question because um I'm currently unemployed. Okay. I lost my job in middle of January. I finished out my my schedule. And I was like, you know what? I'm taking February off. I just, I've never done that. I've never I have savings and like I can make this happen. And I did. And it's been so wonderful. I don't want to go back to work. I just love it. So what is that saying to you? Oh, it's saying I really, I really just want to start doing this. I want to start talking to people. I want to start just really, because I mean that was the whole point of releasing the book was to help people walk through some of their toughest times. And I'm like, you know, I can do that right now. And I really want to.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yes. So you're so brave to I mean, it takes a ton of courage to leave a marriage. It takes a ton of courage to leave an engagement. It takes a ton of courage to break up with your boyfriend. Like it this are just this is big mistakes, courageous moves. You're so brave. And I see you in that and I applaud you and I see myself and applaud myself in that as well. And I love that although the decisions that you made were for you and your own protection, your own desire for your own self-care, but not everybody wants to talk about it or help people through that. And so I understand because that's all I want to do as well. And so I'm really interested in knowing prior to the circumstances that were what caused you to write the book, were you already like in this coaching, mentorship, come with me sort of practice? Or has this just developed as you've exercised these muscles?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

No, I was a youth and young adult pastor for almost 20 years. And so me too.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Look at that. How funny. Oh gosh, I love this conversation. I like talking to myself. There you go. About us.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Say more about us. I'm so eager to find out. Well, and that was the thing, you know, you spend so much time really because as a pastor, they come to you specifically for help, for prayer, for guidance, you know. And so I loved that aspect because it just meant, you know, because people don't talk about it. People don't talk about what they're going through. And if they're talking to you finally about it, then it's really weighing on them. And so you have this responsibility to take it seriously, to really show up and show that you care, show that you you're here for them in this moment. They have your undivided attention. And we're gonna pray and we're gonna like really understand what's going on. And so I loved that. That was like, yeah, sign me up. I'll do that all day long. And I didn't have to have uh like a counseling, like a psychology degree. I w I wasn't your therapist. I was literally just there to see you walk through this and to encourage you and to love on you. And that's what I I loved, loved.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Okay, so since you can be do and have anything you desire, um, and you're looking into this moment of time where you are taking some weeks off. But if you could orchestrate what was next, what do you think that would be? And then we'll talk about all the other stuff. All the other stuff. But I love I love holding space for dreams and for discovery and for curiosity. And after you say it out loud, if you say, Oh my gosh, can we please edit that out? We can totally edit that out. But it is safe to dream. And I believe that these dreams are in you because these dreams are for you.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

So I am interested to know what the most expansive future version of yourself is.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I I honestly would love to be a speaker, but not in the sense like I don't speak about leadership. Like I just love telling stories and what I learned from them, you know. Um, and I to be fair, that's probably because I was a pastor, so you're constantly sharing your stuff and sharing stories, and this is what I learned out of this situation. And I just kind of feel like my whole story is all about the trauma that I went through and what I learned from it, but also that I refuse to allow trauma to define me, you know, and it it sucks because you you you go one or two ways with it. You can be either really angry and bitter, and why is this always happening to me? What is going on? Or you can choose, well, this is what's happening to me, but I choose to respond out of love or kindness or understanding or emotional intelligence. That's what I want to talk about because we get so upset. And I watched it. I watched it happen with my ex-husband, I watched it happen with his friends, specifically again with the church. You know, people just get so angry and so hurt. And there's just there's better ways to heal. There's better ways to heal than to let it change who you are, to let it chip you, chip away at everything that you want to be, or you get a chip on your shoulder. You can walk away from it and still be happy and still look at that, look at that, all that trauma and be like, it sucked. But I learned so much about who I am and who I want to be out of that. You know, for me, that's that's what is most important. But we don't talk about that, you know, we just talk about, especially now, cancel culture, you know, something bad happens, just cut them out of your life, you know, like block them, do all this. And it's like we're losing so many relationships that we could be having with friends and family and loved ones and siblings and, you know, neighbors. We're we're losing out on what makes us as people really thrive as relationships and how to do them right, you know. So that's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about relationships. I don't need to talk to you about how to be a good leader. I don't need to talk to you about, you know, that kind of stuff. Like, how do you build relationships and how do you do it well? And a lot of it comes from here first.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Um, all of it comes from here first, I think, as we point to ourselves. And, you know, and I think a redefinition of how relationships look as we are evolving, how we're showing up in our relationships changes. So, in some instances, we're breaking social contracts. In some instances, we are saying this relationship is over. Are you interested in starting a new one where we stop this toxic behavior and do something better? Um, and you mentioned uh grace and kindness in in the midst of these relationships. And I think there also can be a fine-tuning of that definition because sometimes we hear that grace and kindness means, oh, I'm supposed to tolerate your ever bad behavior because that's what would make me a good Christian, or that's what Jesus would be proud of. And I'm like I personally am having a new experience. Um, I in this point in my journey, I have never felt closer to God and farther away from the church than I have. So I'm just I'm redefining for me what actually makes Jesus proud, what actually what God meant when he said love and you know, and all of these things. So this is a really fascinating conversation for me to have because our backgrounds have some similarities. So I know how to speak that language, but I'm running it through a different filter than I used to when I spoke that language. So I feel like I'm always present for the conversations, but this one is taking some brain power and and really really anchoring in, like, oh, oh, yeah, I can talk about church and not be triggered. I can talk about love and and what we're going to do with this information because I think there are narratives everywhere in every organization, in every family, in every relationship that are no longer in service. Yeah. And there are portions of our identity that are truth to our core that don't change. And so it's how this all coexists and how we grow together and how we navigate even when relationships not toxic, unhealthy marriages, like we know those have to go away. But these other relationships that we have where there's just there's change, there's movement, there's momentum, and sometimes we're doing that together, and then sometimes we're growing in a different direction than the people that we used to be in relationship with. And allowing for that and trusting that it doesn't mean one of us is doing it wrong. Right. It means that the time that we're walking together has has run its course.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah. I definitely agree that I think there are definitely relationships that we need to be okay with letting go. And so that's where I kind of um go into the corporate space to talk about, you know, why like why is your leadership team so upset right now? It's because, you know, you're trying to hold on to something and the change is what needs to happen. And so I worked with a company for like nine months and I told them, I was like, I don't know that I I can't fix the problems that you guys are having. But what I am gonna help you do is learn how to communicate the problems that you're feeling, the feelings that you're having about these situations. And then you get to decide. You know, when you communicate, when you share something, you give that person, whoever relationship, whatever you're trying to build, you give them the opportunity to either show up and exceed and you grow and and everything, or you give them the opportunity to say, yeah, this probably isn't for me. And that's fine. That's for me, I'm like, cool, okay, that I get it. We're great. I still care about you as a human. I still, you know, I still want to see you eat. It just didn't work out. But if I don't communicate what I need out of this relationship or, you know, this building that we're doing, then it's on me for you know, being stuck or being frustrated. You know, I have to ask, did I did I say something about this to make sure? And yeah, and nine times out of ten, it has always worked out for me at least. You know, I'd be able to communicate and then I see the results and the relationship grows. I think it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yes, and uh sometimes a relationship growing is parting. Yeah, like that is the growth. Like I'm not sure, and I want to talk about whatever you want to talk about um with regard to leaving your marriage. But for me, my courage set both of us free. And I could, you know, focus on all the reasons that made my courage the right choice, or I could focus on the freedom. Yeah. So I'm I'm happy to focus on the freedom, but I also want to hold space for you to talk about like what are you feeling that people need to hear or need to say that is not a part of conversation? Like what prompted you to write the book?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

I wrote it because one, I get uh I get in my brain a lot. So I have to write, and that is the only way for me to work through. Um, my ex-husband and I, we were married for 15 years and we spent eight of it in therapy. And we, you know, we tried. I did, but my therapist, you know, suggested the writing. And so that really helped me. So as I was going through the divorce and the issues that were coming up at every turn, you know, it was a very contentious divorce. And I just had to write because I I knew that I would drown in all of my anger. And that's I did the that that was the reason I was getting out of the marriage, was because I was so miserable. So I needed to write all of that. So writing it all down and then trying to just process my feelings between what it was like to raise the kids, to approach life so differently now. Because as a single parent, what did that look like? What did it look like to have, you know, my ex-husband tell my kids, you know, your mom's going to hell, she doesn't, you know, like all of the faith-based stuff that he was doing to scare them, to write out why that was something I would have to address later. You know, like we get to make choices. That's the beauty of free will. That is the beauty that God gave us was so that we could make free will choices. Now, is he gonna agree with them all? Probably not, but you know, like we we're still our own free people for a reason. So it was just like writing all of that out was where the book started and why it started.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

It's amazing. And what are you seeing as far as response and like how people are able to integrate the learnings that you had in your experience to their lives if they're not in that same situation?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Actually, I haven't heard a lot of the book's only been out for about six months. Um, I've got some good reviews on there, but I think the very first review that came in, I had sent out my advanced reader copy and I sent it to a coworker, another manager at the restaurant with me. And she wrote me the next day and she said, I just want you to know. She said, I I read the whole thing in one sitting. Oh my gosh. Amazing. I was just like, wow. And she she said, you know, after everything that you've gone through, to have so much love and kindness still is pretty incredible. And for me, I was like, that's all I needed. I get that my story isn't for everyone. There's a lot of abuse in there, there's religious abuse, there's, you know, the um mental and physical stuff that happened with my ex-husband. So it's not for everyone, but it definitely I wanted to find people who aren't ready to talk about stuff yet. Like that for me is the big thing. Like you're not ready to talk about it yet. You're not ready to make that decision yet. Or maybe you're trying to make that decision and you feel guilty about that decision. Uh, you're you're staying and you don't really want to stay, but you feel like you have to stay. You know, like any of those things that you wrestle with, I just want my story to have already been there. You know, like I've already been there. I've been outcast by the church. I still have love and kindness. I, you know, like I've done all of these. I've slept in my car because my ex-husband got me kicked out of the house. You know, so it's like, I've done all of this, you will survive. Right scary. It's so scary and it's hard, and you have so many feelings, but uh someone's been there. Yeah. And that's essentially really all I want is for people to go, I'm not alone in this.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Right. That's so beautiful. And to give them the language for the things they can't talk about yet. Yeah. Right. Oh, that's really beautiful and so generous of you. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

So it's like, you know, my childhood story, my marriage, and then even what it was like to start dating. You know, I included that particular because I didn't know that yet. Oh Lord. Yeah. But, you know, just because it was all brand new experiences. I was I got married when I was 20 years old and I got divorced when I was 36. So to start dating at that age and I had only, you know, been in the church and now I'm outside the church and it's like wild. So I mean I write about everything so that people understand it's very crazy, all this whole new life that you're choosing for yourself. And but you don't have to worry about it. You're gonna make mistakes, and you get to choose what you want to do with those mistakes, how you want to become a different person. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Um I know for me there was, you know, people would say, like, oh my gosh, I know this is so hard. I know this. And of course, there are things that are very challenging in that process in sitting in the question, making the decision, and then I had a quietly contentious divorce, but just like I had a quietly contentious marriage. Um yeah, so it was very, and that was actually the wake-up call. My divorce process was three and a half years.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

I know, right? And I was just thinking a friend was talking to me at the beginning of 2025, and this was like he moved out in the summer of 2022. So now 2025, she's like, What's happening? Like, oh my gosh, is this still happening? What's what is happening? And I thought, this divorce process is looking exactly like my marriage. I'm waiting in silence, hoping for the best. And that is not a strategy, and that is not even what I want to do. And I think for me, it was like, that's so low vibe and so rear view mirror, and I'm like 30 miles down the road, like I can't, we're still talking about this. Yeah, even with like that realization and that, like, okay, I am I am I was already done, I've been done so many times, but now I'm done with this part, and we gotta make stuff happen. But even in that decision, it was still six more months until an actual settlement got signed, and then the settlement got signed, and then three more months before a court date, and it was a virtual court date, which was fantastic because I just happened to be in France. Oh rescheduled, I'm all this is perfect. This is talk about my future me, and then you know, so then you think, okay, great, that means it's final. 30 days from that is final. No, they're still that's been six months, and they're still moving money from one account. It's like, oh my gosh. So, but I say all of that to I get that these are big decisions. I get that it's gonna be hard for me. Like this part of the hard is way easier than living an unlived life. So, you know, like we're managing what hard we're available for and what type of hard we're not available for, but so often we are energetically complete before the physical catches up. And so for anyone that's sitting in any question, please know that it's not the day you decide is not the day you like cash your check and get everything divided and all the stuff. It's still there's still this process. And so for me, and I would love to hear your thoughts about this. There's so much to the momentum intention. You said you're doing writing. I journal, uh I'm not a writer, but I have a journaling practice. Um, I have a morning practice. So there is this intentional momentum in the direction of the women that we're becoming. And we're it's like we need to keep this thing. Uh I want to be careful. I almost said we need to keep this thing going, and that's also not true because I believe God's calling us to him, and that is not efforting, it's allowing, but but there is inspired action. We have to make moves, we have to make decisions, we have to follow through. Yeah. And and when we're making a decision like this to complete, no one else is helping us, no one's doing it for us, and no one's even doing it with us. How was that for you?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Um, that is where I just anchored down on my reasons. So when I told my kids, um, when we sat them down and told them, my daughter was too little, but my son, I just looked at him and I said, I want you to see two happy homes. Like that is all I want for you. Right now, we're one miserable one. We're always miserable, and you deserve happy homes. So I anchored down on that. So anytime that I came up against conflict or, you know, people were second guessing me or all of that kind of stuff, that was the same thing every time. I was like, nope, two happy homes. I'm anchoring down. This is what I'm going for. So it was that one. Um, it was also, you know, the the abuse and the mental anguish and everything that I was going through. I I remember my ex-husband tried to blame everything on me. He wrote this note to his family about his alcoholism and just, you know, threw me under the bus 100% and said, you know, uh you don't know this, but Johnny's abusing me. My ex-husband was 400 pounds. I was not abusing him. So it was just like all of these things. And I just remember knowing that his family got this letter, I looked at him and I said, you know, if our son sent me this letter, I'd be looking at him and saying, get out, get out of that marriage. I would be telling him that. And so I looked at him and I was like, if if that's the way you really feel in this marriage, then we need to be done. You know, like if if you're willing and able and desired to say all of this stuff about me, your wife, to your family, then we need to be done. So like I just kept anchoring down on these things and he'd come back and back talk. No, I just, you know, I was really in the moment. I don't care. I don't, you know, at the end of the day, you said this about me. And wow, I would never allow my child in that. So I anchored down in that. And then the big one was especially, you know, as the church started finding out, I had one of my clients. I used to clean houses, and she was with the church, and she just she's like, I I heard we're praying for you. And then she's like, you know, yeah, God hates divorce. And I was just like, mm-hmm. But I just remember in my spirit, I was just like, Yeah, but God loves me. You know, like I get that he hates divorce, but he loves me. Yeah, God hates judging too. Yeah. FYI. Um, but you know, so it was like every time I had little moments like that, um, I got to the point where I was getting so many of them that it just really I just wrote them down. So every time I had something come up, I just write it down and just remember. And so I just anchored, anchored, anchored, anchored, anchored. And that's what got me through because we had this concept when I was in Bible college. They said, whoever spends the most time wins. So if you got someone who's constantly spending a lot of time with you, they're able to feed you such and such. This is how you should think, this is how you should act, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So whoever spends the most time wins. Well, I needed me to win. So I needed to continually just remind myself, spend time with me, spend time in my head, spend time with why I was doing it, because I needed to win. And I didn't want to be talked into something, you know, like I would have to eventually one, stand before God or two, stand in front of my kids and be like, okay, it was I made the decision and I'm being accountable to my decision. And I wanted to be okay with it.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Right. That's beautiful. Yes. And anchoring in that those practices, I mean, that's alignment. That's you are one with yourself. So then when the comments come and people share their opinions that are different than our course of action, we are grounded. And we can say, Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. I I'm not I'm still doing this. And it sounds like you're gonna do that. And okay, it's so good. You um talk about this concept that some people experience that's different than what happened for you and I, but you call it why we stay and the lies we believe about love. I'm interested to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

I grew up in the church, obviously, and I was always told about unconditional love, but I just never saw it. And for me, even the way that faith was presented, the church was presented, you got this unconditional love, but there were so many rules. There was expectations, you had to be a good little girl, you had to be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

You know, those are the conditions.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

I know, exactly. And so it was just like, you know, I I've spent my entire life trying to check boxes off of, you know, if I do this, I will get this in return. And I just didn't, you know, like I was the good Christian girl. I went to Bible college, found a Bible husband pastor, and I was miserable, miserable, just crying tears. And it was just finally, it was just like, man, all of these things that I've been spending looking for love turns out that I do a better job loving myself. And I'm like, all right, bye. You know, like that kind of thing. Because um, that's where I decided, not necessarily even boundaries, but just I deserved better. You know, all this, all this stuff that I kept being told that I would get if I showed up the way that I was supposed to, I never got. And so I was like, all right, well, then I'm just gonna start living my life. You know, I'm 36 and miserable. So for me, that was that whole love aspect is understanding that unconditional love is not really real. I wish it was, um, but it's not. And unfortunately, well, I I I take that back. I mean it is. But it's like good people, you know, like there are conditions sometimes. And, you know, I I just for me, I just decided, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna lean into the unconditional love I can have for myself.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

I we know I have a reframe from that as well because I grew up with the same language and also went to Bible college because we're the same person. Um, and what my what my understanding of unconditional love was everything that you said that like we it doesn't matter what we do, it doesn't matter what we do, but here's the list of things not to do. Like it was all just so confusing to look back on. It was like, how in the world did I ever think this? And how in the world did they ever like to say like how did they believe it too? I mean, that's a whole other show, which I won't. It's whoever it's working for, yay. Yeah, if it's working for you, yay. Perfect. I'm zero judgment because I'm not available to receive any judgment on what was not working for me. But what I'm understanding more about unconditional love and for me, I I can better live into the definition of unconditional alignment, which for me means I am centered, I am grounded regardless of what's happening around me. So the conditions around me do not affect my personal alignment, but the conditions around me do not affect my love. I love and I love me. So a part of that love means I'm not gonna be in the proximity of that guy or that place because I don't experience the love that feels good in my body when I'm in those situations. So I also had to reframe my understanding of what unconditional meant. It's less about action and it for me, it's become more about oh, I'm anchored in the second part of that phrase, and I used to be anchored in the first part.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

I thought it was tolerating really bad behavior in the name of Jesus. That's what I thought unconditional love was.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Yep. Unfortunately, it's reinforced, and that was the part of the problem with you know the pastoral role there too, is because you know, it was an easy weapon for him to use against me. Was you know, you're outside of God because you're not hitting these expectations. Yeah. So it was an easy weapon and it was one that kept me aligned. And my parents did it too. Like I I've experienced that my entire life, you know, and that's what's in the book is talking about how I slowly shed all of those things, but at the same time, it cost me, you know, when I finally had to stand up to my parents and assert my own will. The, you know, they didn't talk to me for two years. They didn't come to my wedding, they didn't, you know, so it's like there's you're gonna make the hard choices and there's going to be consequences with them, but you gotta anchor down into why and what's most important.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

So Right. Because you are not leaving you.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yep, exactly.

unknown 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

So they didn't come to your wedding, which means there was a wedding.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Oh, yeah. Well, when I got married to my ex-husband, yes. Oh, oh, that one. Okay. That one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

I thought you had you're already over there. Okay. Okay. No. No. So, you know, I think it's really interesting the kind of the tagline of the book, the thing that makes you want to read it, because people are curious. People want to know, like, oh my gosh. And it was a traumatic, awful marriage. Oh gosh, that's even, you know, of course, that's I mean, I don't mean to say this is gonna sound uh mean or something. I'm not sure like that, but we know that's what sells books, right? And it sells books because that is a connection point, because there is pain in the world, and people want to either be reminded that they're not alone in it, or they want to be reminded that theirs isn't as bad as somebody else's, or they want to be reminded that there's hope. Like it's all this are all good things, and they make sense that's it's story, it's it's how we relate to each other. But as you have spent this time in writing the book, in processing all of this, and now in uh promoting the book, how are you navigating this hard copy thing that's about a life that is in your rear view mirror? And again, this anchoring in, this alignment and focus on the woman you're becoming. So how how are you balancing that and how is the woman you're becoming the new narrator of the story that you wrote?

SPEAKER_02 38:50

So I had written a good chunk of the book um in 2016. And so I had written a good chunk of that for like eight months, you know, I was just journaling and then put it all together. But when I brought it to the book company that was gonna publish it um two years ago, so I'd been sitting on it for a while. Okay, they told me they were like, so give us more context of why it was such a big deal for you to get a divorce. And so that's where I brought in all my history, my childhood, you know, the religious stuff. And it turned into more of how to help people overcome religious trauma. And so I'm seeing the narrative switch. So that whole narrative question and into who I'm becoming, you know, if I do end up going down the speaking route, I want to be able to partner with churches that understand that there are people that have suffered from religious trauma and really be more proactive in having conversations about it. And what does that look like? And yeah, it might still, we might still be doing these un, you know, these things that we weren't fully aware were, you know, conditioning us to allow things to happen. And so I would love to be able to go into churches and have these conversations and talk about it openly and understand because, you know, the whole mental health awareness, everyone has gotten onto that because we were so struggling with mental health. And there are so many people that are still struggling with religious trauma. And we're just, you know, like they've they put it on the, you know, big big abuses, but we still have little stuff that is really hurting who we would love to be able to. So that's what I'm hoping my narrative moves into is to start having that honest conversation with with churches that partner and understand that that is a real, a real issue. You know, we have to build trust, we have to build relationship. And the only way to do that is by talking and communicating. And so I look at that as I'm reliving, and I'm started my audio book. So I've been like rereading all the chapters again. And it's just, you know, as I'm going through it, I'm just reminded again and again like these are the things that I hope someone sees that someone says, Hey, can you come and speak at this? Can you come talk to the women at our women's conference? You know, come talk to marriages and what this looks like. And, you know, I would love, love to do all of those things. So that's what I'm hoping the woman I'm growing into is, you know, really just reaffirming as I go through this process of selling the book and marketing the book and talking about the book, it hopefully will turn into that.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

So we'll see. I love that. And that is big brave work. Thanks. But necessary. Yeah. That's really beautiful. If you were invited to speak at the church you grew up in, what would that workshop sound like?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Uh again, I tell stories. So my my stories would be about what life was like growing up in such a church-filled space and the stories. Now, what one thing that I am able to distinguish in the book particularly, and then I would be able to on the stage, is my father was a very abusive man. So he used the word of God as a weapon, you know, but he didn't just do it with me, he did it with everyone, you know. And so recognizing that we've given a tool for something that's supposed to help with growth and awareness and life in general, but in the wrong hands, this is what happens. And you have to, you have to check yourself as a Christian, you know, the one that my father used to use all the time was um, you could judge the fruit of the tree, right? And so he was uh judge and jury to everyone. And how do you take those verses and use them in a way that actually helps the tree produce better fruit as opposed to cutting it down, you know, where as him, he would cut it down. And I think we're missing the mark on some of those things. Instead, we're living in a fear-based situation where we're constantly being judged, we're constantly being tested, we're constantly, constantly when the truth is that's not what that was supposed to be. You know, if we're if a tree is bearing bad fruit, then you you replant it. You look at how you fix the soil. You that's what you do. And that's what we know when we're outside of the church, but when we're in the church, we struggle with that. And so, yeah, that's how I would see a conversation like that go. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

I love that. You know, I as I mentioned before, like I am removed myself from from church, but there are all of the things that I learned as a little girl that are about God, like I I believe that. I it it's the interactions that I had with certain, I mean, over the whole course of my life, a handful of interactions with people that that is what I've separated from. Yeah. So it it happens in friendship groups, it happens in work relationships, like it happens in all these things, but it feels bigger, it feels more wrong when when it's with church. And so I love that you are wanting to bridge this gap that it's doesn't have to be yes or no. Yeah. And that there gets to be repair from a place of alignment, from a place of not rewarding bad behavior, but regardless of who I mean both both parties think the other one is behaving badly, right? So yeah, it I just feel like that it's a shaking up of what's no longer working. It's not a sustainable model to scare people into acting the way that makes you feel better about you. Yeah, that one's not in the Bible. And I don't think that it's that simple of a thought process. I think everyone is well-meaning, of course. I mean, they love Jesus, so of course it's well-meaning, but there's something happens and then there's a disconnect, and then there's a whole system that's built on the disconnected part rather than on the relationship, the connection with our creator.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. Um, I don't know, have you ever seen the TV show? It's HBO series, uh, The Vow. It was about the the cult Nexium. Okay. So it's it was so crazy because I was already out of the church and you know, doing stuff, and this special came out and I started watching it because I'm just fascinated in like psychology, all that stuff. And had there been any kind of like Bible scripture or anything in there, I would have swore you were talking about our church. Like everything that they did from the retreats they took to the way that they handled intermarriage conflicts, you know, like apart from the the other cults, like the sex stuff and whatever, they they were parallel. And it was it crazy to go through that and being like, wow, you know, all it takes is just a swing one way for something to go dangerously wrong with how we're presenting this faith model, this belief system, all of it. You know, that he you had a cult leader who had these beliefs and had this thing and he was able to build a cult. Whereas if we're not careful with the pastor that we entrust, you know, like you can build and just swings ever so slightly. And so it was crazy to watch that. And that's why I think it's so important to have these conversations about like the trauma that you're going through, but then also to know that you're aligned with God on your terms, how you have found him, how he speaks to you. For me, I think that that is just absolutely huge because then you can see the swings and you can be like, yeah, I'm gonna let you, you you're having a moment, you're on a rant, you know, like I'm gonna let you have and I'm not gonna all the way buy in because I know what aligns with me. So many people are used to buying in 100%, 100%, 100%, and they're not able to on their own recognize, uh, I don't know that that's necessarily right, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

And I think that that is something that we well, when I was in the church, didn't really consider as much. You know, we just spent so much time, you know, having this mission of getting people in the church, getting them saved, not understanding, you know, we get to let them figure things out on their own. You know.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

So like I said, it's big work. I'm glad it's your calling.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

It was funny. When I was young, um they would always be like, you know, who are you called to? You know, some people want to go to missions and everything. I was like, I was I'm called to the church. And it is never felt more true than now. You know, it's just like, oh, all right, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

You're the girl for the job then.

unknown 48:55

No.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

That's beautiful. And um, I am cheering you on from here. Thank you. You're welcome. Please tell everyone where they can find and follow you, how they can get the book, all the good things.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

The book is available on Barnes Noble, Amazon, Goodreads, Ingram Spark. It's kind of everywhere. And then you can find me on LinkedIn for my corporate work, but I'm also on Instagram, author Johnny Woods. And please follow me because I lost my Instagram account over the summer, and so I'm down to like 90 followers again. I'm like, oh, I gotta rebuild. That's okay. You're a new person. I'm a new person. And then my website, johnnywoods.com, they can email me there. Get connected.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Perfect. We'll link everything down in the show notes. Thank you so much, Johnny. I love this conversation. You too. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. As always, any links or notes mentioned can be found at PhineasRighthouse.com in the podcast section of our site or in the show notes below. And if you haven't connected with me personally, come find me on Instagram at PhineasWrighthouse and let me know you listened to this episode. I'd love to get to know you. Thank you for sharing this time with me. I know your days are full, and I'm really grateful that you chose to spend some of your precious time right here. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any of these delightful conversations. I'll see you next week.