Code with Jason
Code with Jason
245 - Irina Nazarova, CEO of Evil Martians and Sin City Ruby 2025 Speaker
Jason Swett and Irina Nazarova discuss the revitalization of the Ruby community, focusing on the announcement of Sin City Ruby 2025 in Las Vegas. They highlight the importance of small, intimate gatherings for networking, insights from past events, the resurgence of Ruby meetups in San Francisco, and the role of mentorship in fostering growth.
- Evil Martians
- Martian Events
- Sin City Ruby
Life hasn't been the same since the pandemic. Instead of working at an office around people all day, like we used to, most of us now work remotely from home, in isolation and solitude. We sit and we stare at the cold blue light of our computer screens toiling away at our meaningless work, hour after hour, day after day, month after month, year after year. Sometimes you wonder how you made it this far without blowing your fucking brains out. If only there were something happening out there, something in the real world that you could be a part of, something fun, something exciting, something borderline, illegal, something that gives you a sense of belonging and companionship, something that helps you get back that zest for life that you have forgotten how to feel because you haven't felt it in so long. Well, ladies and gentlemen, hold on to your fucking asses. What I'm about to share with you is going to change your life. So listen up.
Speaker 1:I, jason Sweat, host of the Code with Jason podcast. I'm putting on a very special event. What makes this event special? Perhaps the most special thing about this event is its small size. It's a tiny conference, strictly limited to 100 attendees, including speakers. This means you'll have a chance to meet pretty much all the other attendees at the conference, including the speakers. The other special thing about this conference is that it's held in Las Vegas. This year it's going to be at the MGM Grand, and you'll be right in the middle of everything on the Las Vegas strip.
Speaker 1:You got bars, restaurants, guys dressed up like Michael Jackson. What other conference do you think you can go to, dear listener? Or you can waltz into a fancy restaurant wearing shorts and a t-shirt, order a quadruple cheeseburger and a strawberry daiquiri at 7 30 am and light up a cigarette right at your table. Well, good luck, because there isn't one Now. As if all that isn't enough, the last thing I want to share with you is the speakers. And remember, dear listener, at this conference, you won't just see the speakers up on the stage, You'll be in the same room with them, breathing the same air. Here's who's coming Irina Nazarova. Oh yeah, here's who's coming For Freedom Dumlao Prathmasiva, Fido Von Zastrow, Ellen Rydal, Hoover and me. There you have it, dear listener. To get tickets to Sin City Ruby 2025, which takes place April 10th and 11th at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, go to sincityrubycom. Now on to the episode. Hey, today I'm here with Irina Nazarova. Irina, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Hey, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:So you and I last saw each other at RailsConf in Detroit. We're recording this now in August. That was back in May. That was kind of a long time ago now. You know what one of my top memories from that conference is? Um, you know what one of my uh top memories from that conference is? Um, it was that evening when you and me and vova and a couple other, a couple other russians were hanging out, and you know, whenever I meet somebody from some other country, I like to try to learn some of their language, and so I was having all you guys teach me some Russian phrases and stuff like that. And you kept laughing when I would speak Russian. And I said, ira, why are you laughing every time I say something in Russian? And what did you say? Do you remember?
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:You said you're laughing because it's creepy.
Speaker 2:Seriously, maybe, maybe something like that.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, you're laughing because it's creepy. Seriously, maybe maybe something. Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it was because you said that I look kind of russian, and so when I speak, russian it's like creepy, because I like look russian and now I'm speaking russian yeah, that's, that's a weird combination and because obviously you speak with an accent and, uh, I mean folks, that's true, yeah, jason, jason, you look a lot like somebody from, let's say, eastern europe. It's, uh, of course I wouldn't say exactly russian, but like, could be polish, I don't know, I mean Ukrainian and then. But then you start, yeah, saying some words and phrases. I remember I think we discussed this phrase that you should I don't remember, I might be confusing something like the phrase that you should say to your wife, you know, because, yeah, what's the phrase I should say to my wife, your wife, you know, because yeah, Wait, what's the phrase I should say to my wife?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember. Okay, Stephen has a Russian wife. Now they just married Stephen Margheim Yep, Margheim yep, and the phrase is you're right, Ты права.
Speaker 1:Oh, uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, and I remember both of them, both of you saying that, and, yeah, made me feel good how do you say you are right in russian? Yeah, and it feels creepy because again, yeah, just yeah, just maybe because of the accent, I don't know. But yeah, it's just one phrase that can save a marriage, I guess.
Speaker 1:By the way, did you know that I was actually born kind of close to Russia?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that. Do you want to guess where?
Speaker 2:Alaska.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, god, oh, it's interesting. So you did so, did you do the? Did you run the 23andme? Uh, you know, dna test no, I've never done that.
Speaker 1:My wife bought me one and then it sat on the shelf for like a year and a half and we just got rid of it well, hi just I don't know yeah, but I really want to do it. I'm curious what my ancestry is.
Speaker 2:Because I mean there's a lot of traits or traces, right Traces of DNA of people who were in Siberia, then they crossed to Alaska.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I names fully european, though like my, my dad's from michigan, my mom's from arizona, so it was like nothing actually from that region unless by total coincidence. Yeah, I think I'm like I would be very surprised if I get the 23andme back. If I did it and it was like anything, but mostly English- Interesting so, and you mean English-English from England, from the UK?
Speaker 2:Interesting, yeah, I mean I was curious, by the way, when I moved here. By the way when I moved here I ordered the kids Because I never could do it before. And yeah, I'm sort of like 50-50 split between Central Asian, my dad's genes, which is Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and the other half is Eastern European, Ukrainian, Russian and stuff like that, which is my mom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I remember I saw on your Twitter you had like a picture with you and your dad or something like that.
Speaker 2:And he is from okay.
Speaker 1:So just now you said like Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, he's from like that area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, his dad is Kyrgyz and his mom is Uzbek, and in Uzbek families families the mom is the head of the family, so they all spoke Uzbek at home and they cooked Uzbek food, more, etc. So they lived in Kyrgyzstan though. So it's very mixed, I'm going to say Interesting.
Speaker 1:And have you ever been to either of those places?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually traveled last year. Short story my grandfather used to be a mathematics professor, a professor of math, at the Osh University in Kyrgyzstan. Osh is, like, the second largest city. It's a very small country though. It's a very small country though, and so it was his like he would be, I think, 90. But he passed away, so, like his anniversary, and there was a conference at the university in his name and my grandfather's and I was invited to speak. Yeah, and, and that was the most, uh, it made the largest impression on me among all the things that happened last year. Uh, I've been before, I've been there before, but I think traveling now and also meeting a lot of, um, family members and and also kind of being at the university, uh, that that was a different experience yeah, so you like met some of your extended family in um kyrgyzstan.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, sure, yeah, we have. Of course we have. I don't even. I have over 15 nephews. Oh, wow, sure, yeah. And we, for example, we went to our relatives on the Uzbek side, so they invited us. We went there and everyone, everybody switched from Kyrgyz to Uzbek. And I mean, I don't speak either of them, but I thought that my dad wasn't so good at it either, because he, what he did, he lived in this small town and relatively small it's, by the way, it could be the size of San Francisco, maybe a little bit smaller Still. I mean medium-sized town, city and then he went to Siberia for a mathematical summer camp. But at the end of the summer he sent a letter to his mom saying that he got accepted to school to sort of like a boarding school with math specialization, which was a great school, and he just stayed there. He never returned home. Imagine your kid going like in eighth grade, going somewhere for summer camp. And he never returned.
Speaker 2:He just said please send me my winter clothes. Wow, yeah, and you know what happened. Next year, his younger sister did exactly the same oh, wow yeah, that'd be tough to handle as a parent yeah and then.
Speaker 1:So they had an even younger sister, and she was prohibited from going to that summer school that is funny yeah yeah, we sent our kids to a summer camp a couple years ago and it was only for two weeks and it was like we were on pins and needles the whole time, because we weren't allowed to have communication with our kids during the summer camp.
Speaker 1:They could send us letters in the mail but like we had no other contact with them. And when they got back they told us all these horrifying stories. Like they were letting the kids like uh, use power tools unsupervised in this like wood shop. They let the kids shoot guns.
Speaker 1:They let some kid go out in the middle of a lake by himself and these kids you know, our kids at the time were like I don't know, like seven and ten or something like that. So it was like wow, like we're never sending you guys back there that's this kind of wild american upbringing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but that was only two weeks.
Speaker 1:Imagine if we had sent them away and they're like hey, by the way, we're never coming back yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but they were not not doing anything with their.
Speaker 2:They were just solving math problems, I guess okay, so you'd think those kids were safer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I suppose so. So you, Irina, are known for your world travels and I always enjoy hearing about the places you've visited, and so let's see May, June, July, August it's been about three months since we last saw each other when?
Speaker 2:have you gone in the meantime? Actually very little, because the last month I was trying not to go anywhere specifically because I really want to sort of grow some roots, uh, here in san francisco yeah, because you recently moved to san francisco, right? Six months ago ago. Yeah, but because I was traveling. It's like when you first move to a new place it still takes time to kind of build some routine. Almost right, and yeah, but I went to Switzerland, yeah, to.
Speaker 1:Switzerland.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. There's this relatively small conference. It's called this Next Thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I went there, and Amanda Perino is to blame for that. She told me I should go, yeah, so when we talked at Rails World yeah, and she was there, and also Paul, who is organizing the conference. He's our customer at the Wilmarshans. We help him build Tito, so he's building this, tito.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I have to fill in a couple things in case people don't know so. Amanda Perino is the executive director of the Rails Foundation and she I understand is the one who organizes the Rails World Conference, so she encouraged you to go to this conference organized by Paul Campbell. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Paul Campbell, yeah, paul Campbell, yeah, and he was just on the show um not long ago at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, yeah, and I'm actually planning to use his product, tito, to sell tickets for Sin City Ruby 2025, because I've been using Eventbrite and I'm really not a fan, but yeah, I just happened to cross paths with him recently anyway, continue.
Speaker 2:Yep, and, and that's exactly, and Tito is used by many, many conferences and there is some work of Evil Martians inside. So, yeah, very nice product. We also helped him build Vito when, during the pandemic, he was building a kind of virtual experiences platform, kind of virtual experiences platform, vita, and yeah, it's kind of powered by any cable like virtual events with online chats and stuff like that. So, yeah, really really nice product. Yeah, so that that was.
Speaker 2:So paul is organizing with a bunch of other people, uh, this conference, this next thing. It was so well I I really didn't know what to expect, but I was curious. I think it was half work, half not non-work. It's hard to say, because it's in a very beautiful place. You know when usually a conference is in some just kind of hotel, right, often in some conference, conference hotels are nothing about comfort or even sort of humanity at all, I mean in any sense.
Speaker 2:But so this one was they do it in a. It's like a touristic village in Switzerland, which means everything is expensive. Yeah, but you go there, you can get there by train. We were actually getting there by. So it's like you meet in one of the three cities, which is Milan, zurich and something else, innsbruck maybe and so those three groups kind of start moving to the conference, to this village, pontresina, and of course it's incredibly picturesque and just you know, whatever you imagine the Swiss village to be, it's more beautiful than that, very beautiful mountains and mountain rivers and all of that mountain lakes. And, by the way they say there are photos of those funny creatures. I think they call them Capricorns. I was certain Capricorns, I was certain Capricorn, it's like a unicorn. It's not a real thing. Capricorn, it's like a goat with two huge. What's the word?
Speaker 1:Yeah, horns.
Speaker 2:Horns yeah, but they are incredibly large and kind of fantastic. It's.
Speaker 1:I thought it's a fantastic animal, yeah google, google image search, capricorn right now, because I've heard that word. I confess I had no idea what it meant. I think I heard it in connection with like star signs and stuff like that. Yeah, I didn't know, it was a real animal me too.
Speaker 2:So they have. So for the record, I didn't know it was a real animal Me too, until this moment. So for the record, I didn't see one. They just have photos of them everywhere. Maybe it's mid-journey generated I'm kidding, but you know, maybe it's not real. But okay, in all seriousness, it's probably real, it's probably a real animal. It's probably only kind of inspired by the name of the zodiac sign, I don't know, but anyway it looks almost like a unicorn and they have them sort of roaming there somewhere. But you, you got to kind of go and maybe spend the night in the mountains to see them, as as usual. But yeah, um, uh. So this event was something like a mix and so they had.
Speaker 2:By the way, I wasn't sure if people are kind of publicly speaking about this conference, for some reason, sometimes it felt almost like it shouldn't be promoted. I don't know, I think maybe I was wrong. I saw other people talking about it later. So what they do is they bring some very kind of maybe you could say famous people or successful people and some young people that are very inspirational. There was somebody who was maybe 17, something like that, in high school, yeah, but I remember her, she organized a hackathon in Canada. I think she organized a hackathon in Canada, I think. So it's all kind of related to computer science and to this field tech but it's hard for me to say if it was more work or more fun, just because it's a very beautiful place.
Speaker 2:Many activities are not work related. You have like a tea ceremony, coffee tasting, things like that. But I managed to gather a small ruby hike right there because we had Mohamed who's organizing Eurocorps, we had Anna who's co-organizing Helvetic RB, some other folks. By the way, chad Fowler, who's very famous in Ruby space, was there. So we all and some other folks, so we all just went on a uh, on a small hike, hike to to the mountain and yeah, it was nice, it was interesting. Uh, I guess many folks that are organizing conferences were there, uh, because paul is known as this conference organizer and maybe they're looking up to him and that me as well I was looking at. I was like learning of, about how to organize some kind of human interactions, let's say in broader sense yeah, yeah, um, paul was kind of telling me about that conference, um, and it sounded really fun.
Speaker 1:And I'm like man, I gotta make sin city ruby more fun, not that I don't think it's already fun, but I want to make it like even more fun somehow. I have some ideas, um, but yeah, my, my hope is to make 2025 the best one so far.
Speaker 2:Nice. That's really interesting. Yeah, I cannot wait for this next Sin City Ruby. And you know, by the way, what they did in the evening. They had like an evening show and Nadia Adunaya was the main guest on that show, whom I think many people remember her main guest on that show, whom I think many, many people remember her from her many Rails Conf and other talks and, yeah, just a great variety of different formats. And the evening show was like there is a like the normal evening show, like a host and the guest, and then another guest comes up and they answer some questions. It's like an interview, okay, certain lights, oh, and Nadia was wearing an absolutely fantastic evening gown Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, seriously.
Speaker 2:Yep, certain lights. Oh, and Nadia was wearing an absolutely fantastic evening gown. Yeah, seriously, yep, that was my, my, my biggest, uh sort of impression, if you ask me that I got.
Speaker 1:I think for Sin City Ruby 2025, I might encourage people to dress up like Elvis because of Jason yeah, and just you know, there's all the elvis impersonators all over in las vegas it would kind of fit the theme. It would be pretty funny if there's like nine different elvises in the audience true, true, yeah, that that was pretty fantastic.
Speaker 2:I didn't know about that, by the way.
Speaker 1:No, I had no idea that was going to happen. So, dear listener, at Sin City Ruby 2024, jason Charns spoke and, by the way, he'll be speaking again. I haven't revealed any speakers yet. That's the first one. I don't know if you want to reveal any more speakers, irina, but feel free to feel any more speakers arena. But feel free to um, uh, yeah, the elvis thing. Um, he kind of, as he gave his talk, he put on, item by item, articles of clothing, uh for an elvis costume and it was pretty entertaining it was absolutely entertaining.
Speaker 2:I mean, of course it was alluding to this meme, I think, right where where, um, there's a clown gradually becoming a clown, because he was talking about react.
Speaker 2:So it was very kind of ironic and self or self-ironic, something like that yeah, self-deprecating well, I don't want to say that, but I want to say it was nice in a good way. He was laughing at himself, yeah, and yeah, he was gradually putting on more and more pieces of that costume. I was just I don't know. And, by the way, the story was kind of sad up to some point, right well, I am the world's worst conference talk uh attendee, because I never can.
Speaker 2:This is why I got terrible grades in school, like I can never pay attention yeah, but I gotta say this talk was, um, I mean, it was almost like you were consuming different things, like emotional, like it was incredibly hilarious, of course, not only because of the costume, but also because of his way of speaking, his just kind of attitude, his charisma, his personality. The content was like, yeah, a little bit difficult to fully independently take in, because it was sad, I think.
Speaker 1:What was sad about it?
Speaker 2:Because they tried using stimulus to build an audience website editor. They tried to go only with Rails full stack and he showed some problems that they couldn't update some things in real time, things like that, and how they tried to overcome it and how they couldn't do it, and then finally, they ended up using react for this page. So of course it was like a sad story, right, but it was very emotional.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm trying to say okay, I was unaffected emotionally owing to my inability to pay attention. By the way, at RailsConf I only went to one talk. It was your talk.
Speaker 2:Oh nice. Okay, you made the right decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I didn't think I could show my face if I skipped your talk. So I'm like I better go to Irina's talk, because you were the keynote, you know.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't miss out on that.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, do you want to share, like some of the high points that you covered in that talk, because I thought it was really interesting and, yeah, can you just share a little bit about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah. Can you just share a little bit about it? Yeah, absolutely so. Of course, the main point is people on Twitter are asking if somebody is even using Ruby today for new projects, for new startups, and the answer is yes, somebody is definitely using Ruby for new projects and new startups, including startups that raise capital, that they grow fast. So not just kind of single person teams, but teams that grow and scale.
Speaker 2:This was the kind of half of the talk, I think, just to present those stories, talk about those cases people starting with Nextjs and switching to Rails. People who didn't build with Rails before, people switching from microservices to Rails, also without the experience of building any large Rails applications before. So this is all telling us that, okay, the hype died out, but are people choosing Rails today? Yes, they are. Why? Because they still want this productivity, and if you're building a prod application, web application, rails is just given you the best productivity for many people. Of course, some people don't like Ruby, apparently, which is okay, but people who like Ruby, they will be the most productive with Rails, of course, and I had one project that was VC backed, was not even Rails, it was Ruby on Roda, a micro framework, and they raised from Y Combinator and a bunch of funds. So very successful story. So that was one.
Speaker 2:But the second point was okay, what's missing then, what do those people say? So my goal was to first of all talk to those people, talk to those startups and ask them why they chose Ruby, rails and Ruby and, secondly, what's missing. And so they shared a lot of what's missing and so I listed like five things. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to reproduce them, but it was like not being loud enough. So it's like five years ago or you could say 10 years ago, people were very actively kind of evangelizing rails and talking about rails. Nowadays, people building with rails are quiet, more quiet Not you, jason, but other people. Right, people were just building quietly, not talking about Rails.
Speaker 2:So people who start with Rails now they need this support, they kind of need this support network because they have to overcome a lot of, because they have to overcome a lot of prejudice and sort of against Rails, and every success story matters.
Speaker 2:Every story about Ruby matters for the community, for people choosing Rails today and Ruby I'm sort of almost equating it to Now this was about the need of more SDKs and integrations for new software. If you think about things like ClickHouse I think it was one of the examples ClickHouse has an unofficial driver for active record, but there needs to be an official one. I actually went and asked ClickHouse about the driver and they said they don't see enough requests from the Ruby community. And this is what I'm talking about, and this is what I'm talking about Kind of be more active in asking, you know, providers for official SDKs to support Ruby, not just Python, not just Nodejs, but not just TypeScript, but also Ruby. And so the third was ML Ruby for ML. We're not doing enough and it's great, and many people are saying that using Ruby for ML is great and, by the way, we're going to have a talk about that at the meetup next week at Y Combinator.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to mention that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I want to mention that. Yeah, yeah. And then the lack of we're yet to build ecosystem around Hotwire. So the technology is getting everyone interested. I'm going to say Almost everyone building with Rails today is curious and trying out Hotwire, but the ecosystem is not as developed, obviously, as React or some other front-end ecosystems. Of course, including components, ui kits and also tooling and also documentation for Hotwire is a big topic. So, yeah, I think people are, it's a great community effort and Mark is doing a lot there, but this resource, hotwireio I think it's bridging the gap a lot.
Speaker 2:And finally, the last point, something that was the most asked for was integration with React, proper integration with React, because people say, look, how do I put this? Basecamp is not using React, but you could say Basecamp can. And hey, right, 37signals. It's almost like a luxury that they have, that they don't have to use React because they just have this amazing marketing that nobody else has. David is sort of one of what's like 10 most popular tech influencers on the web. Right, he's much bigger than Rails, his influence and people of course know him. So they have this amazing marketing. But people who don't have this capacity, they have to compete with their incumbents and with other products and if your product has to compete with a product built with React, with all the interactivity that React application can give you reactivity, that the React application can give you reactivity, then it's pretty hard to recreate this with the existing Hotwire stack.
Speaker 2:Although what I want to say I'm not trying to say that, okay, we should all use React, and people didn't say that. People said, look, there are cases where we need this. It can be just one screen. It can be just one screen, it can be just one component, it can be. Well, for some it can be the whole application that has to be React, but on a kind of needs basis, right. And when it has to be React, there is no proper tooling to ensure that, first of all, this integration is as efficient as it can be. Maybe before you build the whole API, or maybe GraphQL API, which is even more complex, before that, you still want to integrate React into a single, maybe view. And also, there is no type safety for React in any integration pattern except GraphQL, accept GraphQL. So even if you have like REST API, how you ensure type safety for React is an open question. There are solutions.
Speaker 2:So I've heard about a bunch of things people built to enable this. And well, it's kind of crazy. Every company has to build their own thing and, of course, things like optimistic UI or local first. You know the new trends in software development. It's like things that give you the illusion of zero latency, that you sort of touch the buttons, the inputs and everything is happening instantly. We all know it's not real, right? Well, the round trip to database cannot be that fast anyways, even if it's in just like located super close to you, whatever replica still. But it's either optimistic UI or it's like another concept of local first. But it has to.
Speaker 2:We have to think about it. When we build our Rails full stack tooling. So I mean what I'm trying to say is when we build Rails full stack tooling. So I mean what I'm trying to say is when we build Rails full stack tooling, we know the goal is not to fully replace React, for example. If the data structure is very complex, this probably doesn't make sense to use Rails full stack. But if the data structure is relatively simple, we still should think about the modern expectations in terms of, let's say, optimistic UI, things happening instantly, and then changes propagating async to server-side, things like that. And I think this work is being done.
Speaker 2:So the interesting part is sorry, it was a lot, I almost did. I redo the talk, yeah, yeah, but the interesting part is that it's happening. People build these things, people do these things, people talk about them, people discuss them, people use them, because of course it means that a bunch of solutions have to be developed and then tried out and then improved, iterated, and then again and again. Right, it's not a simple line, yeah, and so that's something. So we at the Boomershins we started building tooling using Inertiajs. It's like a central stack library, that kind of glues Rails with React or Svelte or Vue, so it kind of replaces the view, replaces the view with React, without the API.
Speaker 1:It sounds like it saves you the work of writing a bunch of custom plumbing code.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And now, by the way, something we didn't announce yet, but it's like upcoming, it's type safety for this stack and it looks crazy because you want, like React engineer, I realized this. They want to, you know, place the dot in their ID and see what's available. They just want. It's not only about type safety, if you think about kind of testing and things like that, it's also about developer experience of just immediately seeing what's available. And yeah, so there's an upcoming release, maybe next week, where we'll open source a tool that enables web safety for React. And what we're doing we are generating types from serializers, something like that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So of course Ruby is not typed right. Then when you don't want types in Ruby, you sort of, but you still there's a way to think about types and on the like sort of controller level, like at the level of where you are serving data outside.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, Okay, I'm like pretty ignorant of this whole area so I am not even able to ask good questions about it because I just don't have any idea. But I can understand the general concept, I think, of inertia, and obviously we'll link that stuff in the show notes so people can go and find out more about that if they're interested. Let's see, I was going to ask you something else but I don't remember. Oh yeah, yeah, you had mentioned the meetup, the San Francisco Ruby meetup. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the most sort of exciting thing happening sort of with me in San Francisco. So next, let me say this next week we are doing a Ruby meetup at Y Combinator in their headquarters, and it's pretty crazy because I didn't know anybody from Y Combinator. I mean, we had customers that were YC alumni, a bunch of them but I didn't know any partners personally and I didn't know anybody who personally and I didn't know anybody who worked like inside Y Combinator et cetera. But this is, I want to say, this is the power of community. This just kind of signals you the power of Ruby community and that it is actually pretty active in San Francisco now. So we had four meetups GitHub, new Relic, product Board and Cisco Meraki. So now the fifth one is going to be Y Combinator and the next one is going to be at GitHub again and I'm talking about another one in October. So people are first of all attending. They're about like 70 75 people every time.
Speaker 1:People are submitting cfps, people are proposing oh wow, so it's a meetup that actually has cfps? Sure, absolutely, I've never even heard of that, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, we have a CFP. So yeah, and we have to be honest, we have maybe a bit more talks than we should, so we sometimes have five talks.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's incredibly active, but that's because, well, I love talks. I cannot cut anybody off. Of course, when they're giving a talk, and also when somebody is proposing a short talk to add to the agenda, I always say yes, maybe right during the night, but we have an open mic, which is great. And, by the way, last time we also had a book raffle, so Andrew Atkinson sent me his book.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and Vladimir Dementyev also sent me his book earlier, so we had a book raffle and we have two winners, so they got books by Andrew and Vladimir. So great, the best rails books, right uh?
Speaker 1:yeah, by the way, um andrew's book is um oh, I I oh here I have it. I was forgetting the title. It's a high performance postgres 2l for rails um I myself haven't read the whole thing yet, or even very much at all.
Speaker 2:But I have it here in my hand.
Speaker 1:And then Vova's book is. I would grab that one too, because I had two copies right over here, but then I gave them away as prizes at Sin City Ruby.
Speaker 2:What is that book called?
Speaker 1:Okay, Irz is going to get her copy of that book.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yep, yeah, I got it. Okay, so it's layered design layered design for open-rails applications. Yeah, and yeah, this is Andrew's. I also got it, so these are the ones that I will give away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice, that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's something. So I said I want this. I have this idea of doing a YC themed meetup, which, because I want to. I mean people know that, okay, github is using Ruby and Shopify, obviously, and things like that right, maybe they know about New Relic, Maybe they know about Cisco Meraki. But I want to sort of almost like rebrand Ruby. I mean like add some light on this feature of Ruby that we all know about. That it's great for starting, for building startups, it's great for people who are entrepreneurial and vice versa, ruby people are also very entrepreneurial. That's what I really enjoy in this community.
Speaker 1:If, for example, there's a conference any conference, we will not allude to any particular one and the organizer stepped away and people just keep going oh, you mean, for example, just hypothetically, if the organizer took too long at lunch and didn't make it back in time, the attendees would just keep the conference going yep, yeah, that's great that people would do that if it ever happened.
Speaker 2:Well, theoretically, purely theoretically. Theoretically Not in Vegas, not at Sin City, no, just theoretically, yeah, and so there would immediately be somebody who is introducing the speaker very well, very kind of well-prepared somehow. This speaker very well, very well prepared, somehow. So yeah, so that's why we love Ruby conferences and there's spontaneity to it. Yeah, and that's so. That's the ah.
Speaker 2:So I shared this idea with people that I want to do a meetup where it's going to be about YC startups. Why specifically YC? Just because they have this great brand, and I know a bunch of YC companies using Ruby and new ones, not old ones, but new ones and I thought we will kind of change the perception a little bit, I mean influence the perception, so that people will know that you can start as YC, you don't need to use Nextjs for a YC startup, you can use Ruby. So this was my. You don't have to use Next and Python, you don't have to use. If you want to use Ruby, you can use Ruby.
Speaker 2:So that this was my. You don't have to use Next and Python. You don't have to use. If you want to use Ruby, you can use Ruby. You will be successful, you will be, you will raise money, investors will love you all of that. I want to prove this point Because I've seen it. And then I shared this idea at the previous meetup and basically Brad Gessler connected me to folks from YC Because YC has internal software built on Rails and they were trying to hire Rails engineers for months and weren't able to.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nobody wants to work for Y a minute. No, I'm kidding, but yeah, because they have uh. Part of the reason is it's an in-office uh job. You have to go to their office.
Speaker 1:I think people, people are reluctant to do that people are spoiled these days, and there are a lot of remote opportunities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but still they were interested. And now they're going to have a partner, Jared Friedman, who's going to do an order to Rails at Y Combinator and how it helped them be successful of that, and they're going to be speakers. So, of course, if you think, I sort of lost control of that event completely because they are approving the guests, because they have to do this, because they have this brand name and so many people who have no idea what even like Ruby or Rails are would sign up and would come, just to come to a YC event.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they have to sort of pre-screen people and approve and but I could still help somebody get approved, but not everybody, unfortunately. But yeah, but you know what? It's kind of cool, it's even, I'll be honest, I think it's even kind of cool that people cannot get to this event maybe somebody because it's oversubscribed by at least two times. Because that's what I want ruby to feel like, right that that, yeah, this kind of fall more right that you, it's the way it's, you know yeah, you want it to be a party with a line out the door yeah, right, yeah, exactly, I want that, yeah, and so that's what's happening okay, um, yeah, that is really fascinating.
Speaker 1:You know, I've had a little bit of a glimpse into some of the other meetups in other parts of the country, like you might know that I went to the Boston Ruby meetup in June and that was great.
Speaker 1:They had a pretty decent turnout, maybe like 20 people, roughly something like that. I spoke and Kevin Newton from Shopify spoke, but I think the Boston meetup and then the Chicago meetup I've been to that a couple of times recently similar turnout like 20 people or so. Actually, one that I went to maybe only had 10 people or something like that. And they don't have meetups once a month like most meetups had before the pandemic. They kind of have meetups ad hoc when they have a speaker and that seems to be kind of the pattern of.
Speaker 1:the Detroit Ruby meetup too is like that, and the Grand Rapids Ruby meetup near me that just no longer exists at all. But I think that's kind of the. The default now is like the Ruby meetups don't happen unless they happen to have like a reason to happen. And then they do so. The San Francisco Ruby meetup where it's like oversubscribed every month, seventy five people coming there, cfps for speaking, slots and stuff like that, that is really encouraging to hear.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but that's also because we are promoting it. For example, it's not just me, I asked some of my colleagues and also there are some other folks in the community here in San Francisco that are helping promote it. For example, we send a bunch of personal messages on LinkedIn because it's the only place where you can filter people by Ruben Rails as a skill and San Francisco as a location Bay Area. We're sending a bunch of personal messages from my account inviting people to this meetup, because I don't think it's a spam. If you are a Rails engineer and you're in this area, it's right, and people invite you to a free meetup. Your people are happy to come and maybe they say, oh, I cannot make it this time, but I want to know about the next, next time, things like that.
Speaker 2:So I mean, of course, there needs to be some effort in sort of reactivating people, like you know, reengaging with people or reactivating the community, and I think so. It's two way. By the way, just a short story I mean one way is inviting people and the second way is inviting companies, and we have a I kind of shared some of that in there. There's a Ruby meetup organizer group that is organized by Ruby Central and it's a nice group. Landon Gray, I think, is co-hosting this group, but it's like there are many, by the way, there. I mean, you've seen right the rubyconferencesorg there's so many events everywhere in the world.
Speaker 1:So many.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but meetup organizers definitely need support Because, like you said, well, what if you just have, well, 10, 20 people? You don't know how to take it from this to kind of something else. New level, and I think the so one is, yeah, inviting individuals. But then the second part is engaging companies. I'll give you and of course, in San Francisco we are in this kind of luxurious state where there are many Ruby companies. Let's admit it, right, there are many Ruby companies. Of course, there are many companies in other big cities. I think in Chicago there should be Ruby companies, but do we know about them?
Speaker 2:It's not that easy to find out if the company is even using Ruby anymore, right, and maybe. So, for example, a few days ago I found out I just read the news about this company, chime. You know them right, it's a banking app, so they're a big Ruby shop and they they are. So the news was about them planning to ipo next year, which is big news because, as you know, there are very few tech ipos, literally just single digits this year and and, and last year there were none, I think. So it's big news for the industry that a tech company is planning to IPO, and so Chime is big enough for that.
Speaker 2:But it also means they're going to continue growing right. They need to grow, they need to hire people. It growing right, they need to grow, they need to hire people. And I checked and I found one person from that company who at least registered for one of the previous meetups. I reached out asking if his company would be interested in hosting one of the next meetups. So it turns out, in one of the next meetups. So it turns out Noel Rapping works for them. He's running their Ruby group inside Chime.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:Noel, the author of programming, Ruby, famous books and, I think, many others.
Speaker 2:And previous Code with Jason podcast guest, exactly so this person just so Noel just proposed a call to have a call about this meetup. So, and I hope it works out and we have this meetup. But so this was very simple. You know, just one email to one person proposing a meetup and I think it's going to happen. But that's because, of course, many companies have offices in San Francisco, right, but the meetup has to have a connection to the businesses using Ruby, because ultimately, the businesses using Ruby are, first of all, they have resources, but they're also interested in hiring, in supporting the community, in being active members of the community, because ultimately it's about hiring, let's say. So I think the missing link is knowing which companies are big Ruby shops and sort of connecting them with organizers of meetups. And I don't know yet how to help with this, but that's what I was kind of thinking about.
Speaker 1:Interesting with this, but that's what I was kind of thinking about.
Speaker 2:interesting, so, connecting companies that use ruby with the organizers of meetups yeah, in their, in, in their location, for example, these companies headquartered in chicago or chicago, whatever, and and uh, and they would be interested. Chances are let's say chances are they would be interested in hosting the meetup and if there is like a rotation of spaces, this is also important. But also they would provide speakers for the meetup. They would say that, oh, we're hiring Rubyists and it brings people to the meetup as well. Right, because some people would be looking for a job and, in general, you want to be in the community where things are happening, right, and I think businesses play a role in this. That's all I'm trying to say. Definitely, yeah.
Speaker 1:By the way, you can tell Chime they can talk to me because I know the organizer of the Chicago Ruby meetup, in case they I would think that Noel would know them already, but just so you know, I know the the chicago ruby people happen to make that, that connection. And I don't know exactly how this happened, but at rails conf in detroit, um, I met peter kai, who I was kind of acquainted with online before.
Speaker 1:We had never met in person, but he organizes the Boston Ruby meetup. And also I met Freedom from Flexcar, who I think you know, knew from before, and now Flexcar is sometimes hosting the Boston Ruby meetup, that's perfect, so I don't know how that connection happened, but I thought that was kind of neat that they found each other and then started making that happen.
Speaker 2:Exactly right, and so that's the power of community making things happen, kind of smoothing things out, right. So it's like usually without the community, you want something to happen, you have to kind of go bang on the doors and you know you want something to happen, you have to go bang on the doors. You're also blind. You don't know what people would be interested in, etc. But the community is giving us access to each other so that we can do things. Some of it is, of course, for example, open source, tooling, things. People share people on our meetup. I think we're just discussing incredible things. Seriously, I just love it. But it's also experience people in early stage startups learning from later stage companies how they've grown and they had usually it's performance problems, database problems, or I think the topic you've been. You spoke about how to design business logic, how to design business logic, how to actually yeah, how to keep your system from collapsing under the weight of its own complexity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the complexity of it, yeah, exactly, and so we discussed this. It helps everybody. This knowledge sharing, right? It helps everybody. This knowledge sharing right, it helps everybody. Okay, some knowledge sharing and presentations help the open source ecosystem, but also there's some component that is about hiring and people finding jobs, companies finding people that the community is also enabling, and maybe even some mentorship can be informal, can be more formal, can be informal, can be more formal. But also people at SAF Ruby, we have this open mic and people say sometimes people say it like when they said or I'm relatively new to Ruby and I'm looking for what to read, what to do, how to find a first job or how to grow professionally and that's why I'm attending the meetup. So this is something very important and something where everybody's playing a role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'll say that a lot of these things depend on somebody stepping up to the plate and making something happen. Like, for example, I decided in 2022, excuse me to start hosting a Ruby conference, and that was just kind of like out of nowhere a little bit, and I didn't know if it would work. Luckily, some people came to it and then I did it again last year and people came and I'll be doing it again in 2025. And I expect people to come to this one too. But, like I didn't have any special position or authority or anything like that, I did have this podcast, which certainly helped, but my podcast didn't come from me having any kind of special reason why I could do that. I just decided one day, I guess, I'm going to start a podcast.
Speaker 1:And then we've seen these, like other small conferences sprout up to, like Adrian Marin putting on Friendly RB, and that has become really successful Blue Ridge, ruby, and there's so many of these small conferences all over the world, many of which are brand new, just because somebody decided to step up and do it, and that's something that all these things depend on, and I think there's kind of a shortage, unfortunately, of people who are willing to do that, because there is a cost to doing these things, either in time or money or both. But I guess what I want to say is dear listener, don't be afraid to try to be the one to step up and do that stuff, because pretty much anybody can do it, you just need to, and we need more of these people.
Speaker 1:So yeah we need more of these people.
Speaker 2:That's true, that's so true. And we sometimes, I gotta say I think, jason, you would agree with me Sometimes you don't know exactly what you're doing at the beginning.
Speaker 1:Big time. I still don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean with this ASAF meetup. I just moved here. I thought let's try it. By the way, you played a role in this. I'm not sure if you know this. So about that time somebody reached out to me Believe it or not, it's an HR, offering me to consider a job of a Ruby engineer, which I cannot consider because I'm not in the engineering role. I was surprised, but this person turns out we still had a conversation. This was Meredith, from an HR company that is hiring Ruby's for a bunch of big companies, including Apple. You remember this right. So she reached out because she saw me as a speaker at Sin City. Ruby, seriously, oh okay.
Speaker 2:She only reached out to me because she saw me speaking at Sin City Ruby Somewhere in the internet, I mean somewhere, somehow right and well, she assumed that I must know something about Ruby and then I asked her to sponsor our first meetup. Oh yeah, so I asked tech systems. It was not a huge sponsorship, maybe $1,000 for for the food and drinks budget, but that was important because GitHub was providing the venue, which is great, and recording and all the facilities and all the support, but they're not providing the food and drinks and we had tech systems as a sponsor for that. So they made an announcement that they're hiring a bunch of rubies, etc. So it was also useful and nice and this is how we made it happen.
Speaker 2:Of course, if you say that evil Martians have to always kind of pay for all the food and drinks for every meetup, of course this is too much and we cannot afford this and it's not something that could be happening. But or, evil Martians, only we ordered a cake. That's what we did. We ordered a kind of huge cake for the first meetup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Wait, did you put pictures of that online?
Speaker 2:I think so, I I think yeah, because that rings a bell.
Speaker 1:I think I might have seen that, yeah yeah, I, I almost forget it now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why you should document things on the internet. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there was a kick but um, so you played a role in connecting me to this HR recruitment company and they became the first sponsor of the first San Francisco meetup. So you see how it all is connected and I think this is the magic of community. You know people sharing some interests, sharing some goals. So that I mean, of course it's not always like this, of course you might. I'm not saying everything is simple, but in comparison to I've just been doing things outside of the community for a long time. I've just been doing things outside of the community for a long time. So, in comparison to not having a community and doing something, this is just a huge difference. Yeah, so if, for example, some of the listeners is thinking about, let's say, organizing a meetup, you can reach out to, you can ask to join the Ruby Central meetup organizers group. This is one resource for you just to talk to people. Also, you can reach out to any member of community, including Jason, me, other people for advice what to do like first steps, how to find companies, how to find companies, how to find people and then some of it works. It's kind of working out, and the reason is because, for example, I am at Evil Martians we mostly don't work with big companies.
Speaker 2:We do sometimes, but it's rather an exception than a rule. We usually work with startups, right, but I need the big companies because, well, it also helps our business, because many employees of big companies then go and start startups and this is when they can hire us. Also, I want them to host a meetup. At the meetup, I will invite startup founders building with Ruby and other people, and some of them will become our customers, right, but also they will. We can share the interest. That's what I'm trying to say. My interest is in growing Ruby community as well as yours, right, and it's like easier that when you find people who share can share the goals with you, right, yeah, find people who share, um, can share the goals with you, right, yeah, and in that group you can find, yeah, companies looking to hire people, looking for jobs, um, all sorts of things and you, may you help make it happen.
Speaker 2:And sometimes growing from that, that's, I think, in the just, and I think it's growing from that, that's I think and just, and I think it's maybe why you are hosting this conference. You also can see that something's happening at the. At the conference, people connect to each other, people connect to you yeah, whether they want to or not, because I have my forced socialization exercise that I make everybody do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dear listener, at the beginning of the first day of Sin City, ruby, I had everybody get into groups and I gave people some conversation seeds and people could kind of get to know each other a little bit. Then some people told me that they liked it so much that we did it again on the second morning. So I think we'll be doing that again in 2025. And people told me some people were like I didn't like it. It made me very uncomfortable, but I was glad we did it because it forced me to meet some people and so they actually did like it, and so that was good to hear, because I think a lot of times people have a hard time just like randomly going up to somebody and starting a conversation.
Speaker 1:But I want to echo what you said, Ira, about organizing meetups and stuff like that. I think you were probably serious with your offer that people can contact you and ask for advice and help and stuff like that, and certainly me too. You can email me, jason, with Jasoncom.
Speaker 1:I myself have run meetup groups before and I've given people advice before on running their meetups. And you know I speak at meetups too and I don't know if there are a lot of people crazy enough to do this, but like I flew myself to Boston just to speak at the Boston Ruby meetup. There's not a lot of people who do that, but I do that kind of thing sometimes. So if you need a speaker, I'm often happy to speak. I'm happy as to speak when you pay for it, but I paid for myself to go to Boston to speak at that one because it helps me with my consulting work and stuff like that to do stuff like that. But yeah, I just wanted to say that I'm happy to help with that kind of stuff and generally, if you reach out to people who are doing those sorts of things, they're more than happy to help in whatever way they can.
Speaker 2:True, yeah, and Jason. I only have one question when are you coming to San Francisco, ruby?
Speaker 1:I was just thinking about that. Um, I want to. You know, I've had it in the back of my mind to come sometime, um, when I can. I just didn't know exactly when. But the gears are turning in my head because I'm thinking about, first of all, it would just be a lot of fun. But also now I'm thinking about first of all, it would just be a lot of fun, but also now I'm thinking about it in connection with Sin City Ruby, and it's like San Francisco, like you said, is not that far from Las Vegas and there's a lot of people who would probably come. I'm like man, maybe I should go and kind of spread the word about Sin City Ruby in San Francisco. So, yeah, I definitely want to want to come soon. I will start making the campaign with my wife to approve the trip.
Speaker 2:Yep, cool, amazing. Yeah, you should speak at the meetup and we'll make it work. And yeah, syncager Ruby is the only regional Ruby conference for San Francisco. You should think about it, right? Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:I don't know of any other conference, the only regional Ruby conference for San Francisco. You should think about it, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, I don't know of any other conference that's like on the West Coast in that area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think yeah, there at least was the Rails SaaS conference in Los Angeles. It's a little bit of a different thing, but yeah, that's the only thing that I can think of. That's like in that general region?
Speaker 2:Yeah, true, but yeah, that's the only thing that I can think of that's like in that general region. Yeah, true, I know, I actually heard folks kind of started thinking of bringing back the conference that people had in San Francisco. Yeah, but it was called Go Go Ruko after the bridge Golden Gate.
Speaker 1:Goga.
Speaker 2:Golden Gate Ruby Conference right, yeah, and maybe there are some movements, I don't know, but I actually think it will be.
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of stepping up, I wonder who should organize this conference.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I don't. So okay, let's say this yeah, yeah say what't?
Speaker 1:So okay, yeah, yeah, say what you're going to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was curious to see where the meetups go. You know what's the demand for meetups and it looks like there's some demand, but we just had four. It's not that many. I'm willing to take it a bit longer and see that we have a static and a rotation of companies and people and all. It wouldn't be that hard to organize the conference once we have this really, really nice group here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that seems like a good idea. Yeah, because if you have a strong meetup it's really not hard to. The conference is just kind of a big meetup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but at the same time, the conference is paid right. This is the difference. Of course. I spoke to, oh my God, to the organizer of Blue Ridge, oh my God. To the organizer of Blue Ridge. And yeah, we just. We discussed some things that he's been doing for the conference and I'm sure you're doing them for SimCity as well, like all sorts of questions about insurance, that if somebody is like killing somebody else at the venue, I don't, I'm, I'm joking, like okay, if they destroy property or something like this is happening.
Speaker 2:Of course it's uh, it's a special, I don't know. It's much harder, so yeah, so I'm not sure I can say I couldn't organize a conference myself. For sure I wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 1:If I can do it, surely you can do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it.
Speaker 2:Jason, but you have your wife.
Speaker 1:No, I don't have her.
Speaker 2:I don't have her. You see, you got to acknowledge that.
Speaker 1:That's a good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's a very fascinating prospect of you know, just the thought of a Ruby conference in San Francisco. It seems like something very appropriate and I could definitely see a lot of interest in that, but we should probably head toward a conclusion soon. Anything else you wanted to touch on before we go?
Speaker 2:No, that's, that's that I'm incredibly excited about the new wave of connectivity in the Ruby community and let's keep it going, let's keep it, let's keep kind of discovering, rediscovering this community and how it and how we can all engage, what we can do together yeah, definitely yeah it doesn't have to be huge.
Speaker 2:If it's not the largest community in the world, it's great, because what's important is how meaningful it is, how engaged people are right and even a relatively smaller, relatively good comparison to like JavaScript, of course, we can't compare to that Community. If this community is engaged, if people do things together and it can be open source content, events, helping each other find jobs, helping each other build products, helping each other with mentorship, helping with ideas, helping big companies, helping small companies, of course, different things right and open source, and connecting big and small, connecting people who are further along with people who are new, all sorts of things if we can kind of come together and help each other, it's going to be the best community in tech, don't you think? I?
Speaker 1:I think so. Um, and there's advantages to being smaller and tight-knit and stuff like that community where everybody knows each other and stuff like that. There's definitely advantages to it. Um, okay, so I want to make sure that we, that we promote a few certain things. Um, where can people go to learn more about the san francisco?
Speaker 2:ruby meetup.
Speaker 1:Um, we haven't talked at all about what evil martians is and all that. I'm sure many people listening are well aware of evil martians, but I feel like you should at least dedicate a sentence or two to that and then, for my own purposes, I I want to share Sin City Ruby, so I'll go first and then I'll let you share your things.
Speaker 1:Sin City Ruby it is. You know, historically it hasn't been annual yet. It happened in 2022 and then 2024. From now on, I intend for it to be annually, so it'll happen in the spring of 2025. You can go to sincityrubycom and there's a place there where you can put in your email and get notified when tickets go on sale and all that stuff and speakers will be listed on that site and stuff like that. Again, that's sincityrubycom. Okay, so there's me, irina. Where should people go to learn about your stuff? Okay, so there's me, irina. Where should people go to learn about your stuff?
Speaker 2:yeah, so, first of all, all the things are at evilmartianscom and, well, my twitter account as well, which is xcom slash iNazarova I think we'll have a link somewhere. So, evilmartians, we are experts. I think we'll have a link somewhere. So, evil Martians, we are experts in building developer products. We help design and build startups in broader sense, but our core expertise is products for engineers this is where we are best at, because we've been building open source for almost two decades and products for engineers. So usually early stage startups come to us and say, hey, can you design this product for us, or can you speed up development, or we have some performance issues and glitches and can you make it smooth and nice and performant? So we do this. And, yeah, sf Ruby is a San Francisco Ruby group and we have an account on Luma, which is luma slash sfruby.
Speaker 2:It's a calendar that contains all the events and usually at each event, I'm announcing the next one and I'm also adding them to rubyconferencesorg yeah, and we, but also at evilmartianscom, if you go to events and I'm also adding them to rubyconferencesorg yeah, and we, but also at evilmartianscom, if you go to events, you will find those events there as well, and I'm trying to keep as much artifacts as possible. So we had a recording of the previous meetup at Cisco Meraki and, by the way, folks from Y Combinator are going to record this one. I'm keeping my fingers crossed because it still can fail for some sort of technical reasons, as you know. Sometimes maybe this is out of my control zone, so I can't promise it, but at least that's the plan to have the recording for this one and at the next meetup we're also going to record it and we'll um, we'll be posting all the artifacts, recording slides, everything at evomotionscom slash events on the for the particular event awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we will put all that stuff in the show notes, irina. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Great, thank you.