Code with Jason
Code with Jason
302 - Miles Woodroffe, CTO of Mindful Chef
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In this episode I talk with Miles Woodroffe, CTO of Mindful Chef. We discuss his music career touring with The Specials and working with Bob Dylan and Ray Charles, how he transitioned into tech, building great teams, and finding people who enjoy working together.
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SPEAKER_01Hey, it's Jason, host of the Code with Jason podcast. You're a developer. You like to listen to podcasts. You're listening to one right now. Maybe you like to read blogs and subscribe to email newsletters and stuff like that. Keep in touch. Email newsletters are a really nice way to keep on top of what's going on in the programming world. Except they're actually not. I don't know about you, but the last thing that I want to do after a long day of staring at the screen is sit there and stare at the screen some more. That's why I started a different kind of newsletter. It's a snail mail programming newsletter. That's right. I send an actual envelope in the mail containing a paper newsletter that you can hold in your hands. You can read it on your living room couch, at your kitchen table, in your bed, or in someone else's bed. And when they say, What are you doing in my bed? You can say, I'm reading Jason's newsletter. What does it look like? You might wonder what you might find in this snail mail programming newsletter. You can read about all kinds of programming topics like object-oriented programming, testing, DevOps, AI. Most of it's pretty technology agnostic. You can also read about other non-programming topics like philosophy, evolutionary theory, business, marketing, economics, psychology, music, cooking, history, geology, language, culture, robotics, and farming. The name of the newsletter is Nonsense Monthly. Here's what some of my readers are saying about it. Helmut Kobler from Los Angeles says thanks much for sending the newsletter. I got it about a week ago and read it on my sofa. It was a totally different experience than reading it on my computer or iPad. It felt more relaxed, more meaningful, something special and out of the ordinary. I'm sure that's what you were going for, so just wanted to let you know that you succeeded. Looking forward to more. Drew Bragg from Philadelphia says Nonsense Monthly is the only newsletter I deliberately set aside time to read. I read a lot of great newsletters, but there's just something about receiving a piece of mail, physically opening it, and sitting down to read it on paper that is just so awesome. Feels like a lost luxury. Chris Sonier from Dickinson, Texas says just finished reading my first nonsense monthly snail mail newsletter and truly enjoyed it. Something about holding a physical piece of paper that just feels good. Thank you for this. Can't wait for the next one. Dear listener, if you would like to get letters in the mail from yours truly every month, you can go sign up at nonsense monthly dot com. That's nonsense monthly dot com. I'll say it one more time nonsense monthly dot com. And now without further ado, here is today's episode. Hey today I'm here with Miles Woodroff, uh CTO of Mindful Chef. Miles, welcome.
SPEAKER_00Hey, thanks. Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01Um so tell us a little bit about uh about yourself.
Music Roots And Touring Stories
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I'm Miles. Uh been around a long time and uh in specifically in Rails and Ruby. I got into Ruby through Rails, like a lot of people. And it's back in 2006 I saw that uh you know video that David put together on uh you know the blog. And I was working in a company working on Java and EJB and just pongful stuff, and so I thought, what the hell is this? And uh ever since then just absolutely hooked and been lucky to be working with Rails. Uh this will be my 20th yeah, um and in lots of different contexts.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Um, and I and we'll get into the the Rails stuff, obviously. I also want to I want to comment. I see a couple guitars in your background, I see a bass and a six-string guitar. I also see a book on your bookshelf called Scod for Life, SKA Apostrophe D.
SPEAKER_00Um You know what? I never thought about blurring out this background, I should do that. Um yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so tell me a little bit about your music background. I'm curious about that.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah. But uh yeah, I was always into music. Well, I got into computers, you know, 1982. I think I got my first, I was like 13, 14. Um running basic programs, you know, 10 print miles, 20 go to 10, and that I was hooked. See my name on the screen. But then I got a long story short, got into music playing in bands, then became a sound engineer, and yeah, the the start for life actually. I was I worked for a band called The Specials, who were actually from my hometown in the UK. Big, big band in the UK in like 79, 80, but then they reformed in the 90s and I got to tour all over the world. Um were there for about five years, actually. They were in the US, you they call it like the third wave of Sky. You've got like No Doubt, real big fish. Um, all these bands were like, they were all disciples of the special. So they always came to our shows, you know, used to hang out with No Doubt and all these people back in the late 90s. Um yeah, taught over the US. And then it's funny, you know, 95, 96, internet starts, and even normal people were like, So what's this internet thing? And I was like, hmm, I know computers, I could do this. So I just you know, in those days you could buy any domain you want, bought the specials.com or buy that, set up a website, and then I started doing lots of websites for bands, and it was just it was getting too much, to be honest. Um and then the specials kind of imploded, and I got long story short, got an amazing job in Los Angeles area, and got to work with Bob Dylan, um, Baze Brown, Ray Charles. It was insane. But that was the I thought I'm never gonna do better than this, and I really want to get back into tech, getting old, too old for rock and roll, and um yeah, got a job, um, just bluffed it really in San Francisco, and then uh that was 25 years ago. God, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Um there's actually a lot of a lot of parallels between your background and mine. Um yeah, so I used to play in bands, you'd see the piano behind me. You see the piano, yeah. Yeah, but my main instrument is guitar. I've I've played guitar and bass in different bands. Um one band I was guitar player and and one of two singers, and then a different band, I was the uh frontman bass player. So kind of a kind of music. Um just just rock, I guess. I I always have a hard time describing it. Um, but the the first band, we were called the Moms. Um, this was like late 90s, early 2000s, and we were kind of influenced by the the like emo scene a little bit, but we were never like we never considered ourselves an emo band or anything like that. Um and and we were pretty pretty like heavy, but definitely not metal, kind of punk influenced. I I don't really know how to describe it, but that was that was my favorite band that I was in for sure.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, this is a 1966 Fender jazz that I bought in 1987, but um but yeah, I I played bass, and yeah, my band played at uh Glastonbury Festival, believe it or not, and also Phoenix Festival in the UK. Uh we were we used to think we were kind of like jellyfish type. I don't know if you know jellyfish, but that kind of harmony credit house, you know, kind of acoustic rock. But yeah, we weren't that good. Um what are you guys called? Various different names. Uh I won't go into this story about this, but one one most embarrassing name was the Walnut Conspiracy. It's a very funny story with Bob Geldoff uh along those lines, but we won't go into that. Um yeah. Yeah, cool. I find there's a lot of programmers actually, and I have a theory about bass players becoming amazing programmers, also sound engineers. I've met so many sound engineers that were bass players, and so many software engineers that were bass players. There's definitely something, don't know what it is, something about that rhythm, or you know, you you're reliable. I don't know. Something like to concoct in my mind. Yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01So you're you're proving it. Well, I really gravitate toward the bass because I just find it fun. Okay, so like you have a chord progression in a song, but you have to figure out some way to make the bass line interesting, you know, because I really don't love it when the bass just exactly follows the chord progression, and that's all there is to it. Um I I think the bass line should be interesting in itself, you know? And so I I feel I look at that as kind of a puzzle. It's like, how do I come up with the bass line that follows the chord progression but's interesting on its own?
SPEAKER_00You have any favorite bass players or you're more into bands?
Bass Players, Styles, And Influences
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's a good question. Um That's a really good question. I'll I'll have to think about that and and get back to you on that because nothing comes comes to mind. There's the famous people, like you know, Les Claypool and Victor Wooten and stuff like that, Getty Lee, but I wouldn't consider them my my favorites, even though I respect them a lot and they're obviously very good players. Um oh, here here's one that I like, not necessarily a favorite, but but one that I like. Um John Entwistle from The Who.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, cuz very strange finger style as well. He had this kind of very odd playing style.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, and everybody in the Who was just nuts, you know? Like every Who song, it's like everybody is just playing as hard as they can the whole time. Which is uh it's very interesting. I'm I'm not the biggest Who fan in the world, but there's something I I really respect about them, and all four of the instruments are just going crazy the whole time. I really like that.
SPEAKER_00You mentioned, well, we're talking about bass players. Yeah, that book you mentioned up there is actually by is by the bass player from the specials who I work with, and that the very first bass line I learned was when I was like 13 or 60. I was a massive fan of this band and then went on to work with them, which is really strange. But that's the first bass line I learned was one of his um he's one of my uh favourites. Um then I got into a bit of a esoteric like Jacob Pastorius, who are just virtuoso soloists, but uh yeah, not something I can do.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I haven't even heard of him. Um now that I've my I've been thinking about it a little bit. Um, one band whose bass lines I really enjoy. I don't even know the bass player's name, but Cake. They they have some really great bass lines. That's another band where just everybody in the band. Sorry?
SPEAKER_00Is that that female of the species? Is that their song?
SPEAKER_01Um well some some of their hits are like uh The Distance was probably their their biggest hit. You know that one? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um another band where just everybody in the band is just incredible. Um anyway, um so that's a little bit of the the oh I also wanted to mention that I have a little bit of a background in the audio engineering type stuff also. I I took a really cool class in college um for audio engineering, and the teacher was just the most interesting, coolest guy, and I learned a lot. Um and I feel like that's something I've noticed a lot too. People who are into programming and audio engineering makes a lot of sense because it's kind of you have both that left brain and right brain kind of strengths, and you can put those two together.
SPEAKER_00You have to capture like a big picture in in your head, and it's like holding a code base together, holding a mix together. Well, not now it's all digitized, but when I was doing it, you have to turn all these knobs, you know. You'd have the drummer over there planning things, you know. Now it's all digitized, but uh in the old days, yeah, a lot more fun.
SPEAKER_01Do you think something's been lost when we switched from that style to to how it's done now?
SPEAKER_00I'm the classic. So it's just seamless. I can see myself in the third person. I'm like the old guy shouting at the clouds. Um it was so much better in my day, you know, telling my kids how terrible music is now, uh huh. Remembering my dad telling me the same thing. Like, oh my god. I'm uh but yeah, I mean for me, yeah, definitely. I think it's an age thing as well. Like when I was a kid, I was a young teenager, early 20, I was so into music is my whole life. Um playing in bands, it's all I did. And I couldn't scratch two pennies together to get anything. Now I'm old and I've got all this gear, I've got mics, I've got you know, logic, all the instruments. I just can't be asked to do anything. It's kind of sad. It's it's ironic. You can only flip things around and uh but then this is how life works.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um it's like well, it's partly a youth is wasted on the young kind of thing. You don't you don't know what you have. I used to have so much free time and I didn't know what to do with it, and now it's like wow, I wasted so much time when I was younger. Um do you have kids or no kids?
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep. Kids got like a one's coming up on 30 and then one 17 and one twelve. Yeah, so yeah. Good good range there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, mine are 12 and almost 15. Um I'm I'm coming up on kind of a second freedom, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I don't know how I mean this might not be right for this podcast, but I do worry about the world and technology and kids. I don't I think I have to stop thinking about it because it's yeah, it gets me a bit.
Old School Recording Vs Modern Production
SPEAKER_01I think we've been lucky with our kids. They they have phones, but they don't really use them. Um they're just not really interested, um, which is great. Um we live we live out in the country, um, and they get a lot of time outside and stuff like that, so they're not really sucked into technology as much as they could be, and as much as we feared that they might be. Um but I d I don't I don't credit us for much of that at all. I think we got lucky. I th I think most of people's personalities is my understanding. Most of people's personalities is just hard-coded from your DNA. Um, and so you can kind of steer your kids a little bit uh as as you raise them, but they just kind of are who they are. You have to let their DNA collide with the world, and what happens, happens for the most part.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That's literally the story of my life. Because yeah, my my parents had big dreams for me, uh, and I didn't fulfill any of them. But then I got to, you know, when I was doing well in music and I they came to visit me in America and I told them we were just going to a restaurant, didn't tell them, uh just pulled at the back of this theater. So yeah, we're just going for dinner, walked in, and Ray Charles was on stage, and they were you know in tears. And it's like, yeah, okay. Now now you see why, you know. Yeah, well, I did my own thing, but it paid off, and then I always heard them telling their friends, oh, it's amazing, he's doing so well. I think back when I was uh 16, 17, they were so disappointed.
SPEAKER_01Well, and for every one person like you who succeeded, there's 10,000 people like me who I'm like, I'm gonna go be a rock star, and then nothing ever panned out.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't a rock star, yeah. That didn't pan out for that doesn't pan out for many people. But uh but yeah, but I think to your point, yeah, you you it's pretty much ingrained in you what however much people try and you you can be helped and pointed in the right direction, but you're gonna do what you're gonna do, I think.
SPEAKER_01Right. So what ideas did your parents have for you?
SPEAKER_00My mum was yeah, just classic go to university, become a doctor, lawyer, this kind of crazy thing. Um but by which time I was already I think I joined my first band at 16. Actually, I've when my my parents passed away and I found this tray of tapes really weird in the in the cupboard I didn't know about from the late 80s. And I've uh where are they? Oh yeah, they're yeah. I've actually got a Tascam uh 112 tape player that I used used to have in the studio I worked in, so I'm gradually trying. Well, my idea was to digitize them all, but I've got like a hundred C90s that were like, you know, that's an hour and a half uh of music. But um I found a tape from that first gig I did when I was 15. So I was already music had had uh then. Yeah, a friend of mine as well.
SPEAKER_01It's a great time of life. I I think it's one of the reasons why music is a a young person's game, is because you you you become like a teenager, whatever, you come of age, and you are discovering all the world's great music that's been made since the beginning of time all the way up to the present moment, and you're just like finding it almost all at once, and all these things go into your mind, and there's kind of this explosion of creativity and inspiration and stuff like that. And that can only happen kind of once. Um maybe that's it, you know.
SPEAKER_00Now you're saying that maybe uh you just made me think maybe that's it. Like you you have all of the music for all the time. Maybe that's why I hate everything that's happened in the last 20 years because it's not long enough.
SPEAKER_01No, everything that the thing about the last 20 years is everything that's been made is shit. Um it it really is. Um with with a few exceptions, but okay, so I thought, you know, it is it true that everything sucks for the last 20 years, or is it just me, you know? Um but then uh there's two artists uh specifically that I've heard recently that have made me think no, it's it's not just me being a curmudgeon. There really was like a drought of good music for like About 15 years, I would say, like starting around 2005 or so. Um but even though it's not really my kind of music, um Chaperone, uh, she has some really good stuff. Like, I I listened to her her album, and I'm like, wow, like some of the songs on here, like I want to hear it again. Um, which which is not an experience I've had a lot uh in the last 15 years. You know, you ever listen to an album and you're like, hmm, do I like this? Maybe I like this. You ever listen to something for the first time and you can't really decide if you like it or not?
SPEAKER_00Normally turned it off by then. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I realized something at one at one point. I'm like, if I have to ask myself if I like it, it means I don't really like it. Um, but with Chapel Roan, uh a couple songs specifically, like Red Wine Supernova. Have you listened to her at all by chance?
SPEAKER_00I haven't, but my eldest daughter, she just saw her like two nights ago and Leeds Festival. I think she's a huge fan scene a bunch of times. So now I feel like I need to. Yeah, I should probably at least give it a listen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, there's a few tracks on that album that are that are just great. She has a really great sense of melody. Um, it's her music kind of reminds me of of Tom Petty in a little bit in the sense that it's just one single chord progression throughout the entire song, um, but with different melodies over top of that progression, distinct melody for the verse, and and a really catchy melody for the chorus overlaid on the same chord progression the whole time. It's it's kind of that format for all for most of her music. Anyway, the that she's great. And I saw this YouTube video of one of her concerts, and the whole crowd was just singing along every single word of the whole song. And I'm like, wow, this is this is something different, you know. Anyway, that's one artist, and then another one. Uh they're from England, uh, The Last Dinner Party. Have you heard of them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, vaguely, but not not an expert.
Parenting, Tech, And Nature Over Screens
SPEAKER_01They are amazing. Hands down, the best new artist that I've encountered in the last 15 years. So good. And they're like, like they actually do like uh guitar solos and stuff like that. Like it's something that you you don't see, you know, when's the last time there's been a new band that does like solos and stuff like that? Um so I don't think it's just me. I think there was really a drought, and hopefully we're seeing now the beginning of a renaissance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, we can hope. Yeah, I I I would have said exactly the same as you, apart from the Renaissance part. Um I haven't been looking too much, it's too lost in you know, things I know I already like. There's so much there. Um I'm a huge kind of Beatles fan. Saving Wheelbury's is my favourite of all time.
SPEAKER_01Oh, they're great group.
SPEAKER_00Just the songs and the actually had a ticket to see um Jeff Lynn in London. It was gonna be his last ever show at Hyde Park, and uh, but he got sick the day before and he said that's it. Oh no. Bit sad because he's the uh love Jeff Lynn. But um but yeah, yeah, music is uh it's a common thread with a lot of tech people, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so too. But by the way, not to rub it in, but I did get to see Jeff Lynn uh maybe five years ago or so. Yeah, it was it was great. Um I had tickets to see Billy Joel. Uh, but Billy Joel is having health issues now, and he cancelled. It was supposed to be Billy Joel and Stevie Nicks. Would have been just incredible, but it's not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, they built it up as this was like Jeff Lynn's last ever gig he's ever gonna do. 70,000 people. Wow. He hurt his hand in a in a taxi or something like a few days before. Uh-huh. And then he went off stage the night before, the two days before, and then they just said that it's cancelled. Well, luckily for me, I had a hit something to my eye, I don't know what it was, but I was really in agony. I actually went to the hospital, yeah. So I probably couldn't have gone anyway in retrospect.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. So one of the most painful parts of being a music fan is missing shows, or you know, yeah, there's there's so many regrets, but just don't think about it.
Generational Waves In Music Quality
SPEAKER_00And I'm lucky that I like with with Dylan, it was a very short version, is uh I was like a house sound guy in a theater in in Anaheim, actually, so not LA, but um and they said, Yeah, Bob Dylan wants to do some you know tour rehearsals here. So and I just said, Yeah, you're not you're not gonna see him, don't worry, just come in, set everything up, the band will come in, their crew will come in, get them set up, and then you go, and then Bob will come in, rehearsal day, he'll leave, and then we'll phone you up to switch everything off. And I thought, well, okay, this is amazing. His band is like Charlie Sexton and like iconic musicians. Um, but when I got there, I just really hit it off with the sound guy. The English accent really goes a long way in in California. And um he just said, Can you do me a huge favor? We're doing it was the two it was in 2000. I think the tour was going to be in quad quadraphonic or something. So anyway, he had some excuse. He had to go to the sound company and said, Could you watch the board? I was like, okay. Uh but they his management came up to him and said, Look, do not uh approach Bob, do not try and talk to him, don't even look at him. So I was just like terrified. I mean, there's there's like I'm by the big massive 30 pm 3500 uh 50 channel soundboard, 52 channel soundboard, empty hall, and then Gyllen and his band on stage, and I'm just basically powering up the mics, the phantom power mics. And they just said if he if he asked for the sound in the room, just push faders up. Um I had I did that for four days, it was incredible. Um wow. And then he did two shows, um which uh the first two shows of the tour, you know, which uh yeah, I mean it's 20 25 years ago, Jesus, but it was definitely highlight of my career, I guess. But I got to work with Clapton and uh yeah, Ray Charles came in, um B.B. King, James Brown, you know, these these artists coming through in the twilight of their lives. Um but just to be in that you feel that energy. We did a lot of corporate shows as well. I remember doing one with ATT, the phone company, and you used to be a phone company in the US anyway. And uh they'd have they had BB King, they had they have big acts because they got tons of money, and it's a private thing for their I don't know, executives or whatever. And literally this lady uh they said uh just play this tape, put this tape on. It's like, oh, I recognize this, it's like Aretha Franklin uh respect. Aretha Franklin walks out on the stage, like the Aretha Franklin. Wow, and then she did one song, and then I'm still like, this is amazing. I didn't I thought I didn't get to meet her anything. As soon as she comes up to the sound booth, asks for a tape. It's like it's that this that era of people like um Ray Charles, um um BB King, no B King. All your modern bands will have a sound guy. I was a sound guy for a band. They don't have they're like, Oh, you're the sound guy, why would we have a sound guy? Like the mentality is so different. Um I don't know, they just haven't been overtaken with fame and the madness of they're just normal people, they're like, Yeah, I'm Ray Charles, they're gonna do this. Interesting. It is very odd. I think we've lost that for sure. Because I remember I remember doing the gig with Toto and we had to strip the whole sound rig, all the lighting, all the trussing. It took about four hours to strip it. Then they brought all their crap in, did the gig, all theirs out, and then we have to load all our back in. It's like four in the morning. Um just thinking. Ray Charles came in and said he needs four channels and blew the blew the roof off the world. Okay, totally cool, but it's still Yeah, it's quite different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that is interesting. Well, yeah, I think there's something to be said for that. Like, you know, Jack White is very like minimalist. Um there's there's not a lot between what comes out of his instrument and what you hear on the recording. Um and I really think there's there's something music now, um, you know, like as much as I like Chapel Roan's um songwriting, the production, um Dan Nigro is the is the producer, um, and it's just so so slick and polished and stuff like that, and it's like I this isn't better. This is not better. I I like to I like to hear the mistakes and stuff like that, the imperfections. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that is definitely different. But um, but yes. I've I think I've gone off on a tangent. I did warn you.
SPEAKER_01Um oh yeah, that I think there's no going back now. Um but I I did want to bring something up with you because I I feel like you might you might have a take on this. Um so I I have this theory about the history of of music. Um so we had this like explosion from my perspective, um, in the 60s, where you know there was the Beatles and everything that the Beatles uh triggered, you know, they they they influenced so many other artists, and we had kind of this wave. Um and then I feel like in the in the 90s, maybe we had a reverberation. Um, like it was the next generation. Um, you know, Nirvana and all those big 90s bands. Oasis. Oasis, yeah. And I don't think we've really had another reverberation after that, but I I think it's kind of natural because I think it was the baby boomer phenomenon. Um everybody came back from war and there was this baby boom, and there was this cultural backlash of the baby boomers against their parents' generation. Um, and it was kind of this unique time in history um where everything was changing so much. And and it was you know, we didn't have a music explosion in the 1860s, it happened in the 1960s because it was that unique moment in history, uh a unique moment in technological development and society and stuff like that. And so it was a one-time event, and nothing like that has happened before, and nothing like that will happen again. And so maybe it's the case that the music that we have, this great music of the 20th century, it's kind of a one-time unique thing. Any thoughts on that?
Spinal Tap, Comedy, And Live Shows
SPEAKER_00It's funny. I like I said earlier, I listened to a lot of podcasts, and one I listened to is called um what's it called? Tim's Tim's listening party. It's Tim Burgess, he was he was a singer from an English band called The Charlatans. But he did this thing in lockdown, maybe it might not have got to America, but in when it was a COVID lockdown, he got everyone to like put the same album on. At the same time you say, Okay, get the album, press go, and then they'd start tweeting with the artist that made the album, and it went crazy in the UK. Like everybody was like, Oh, this is amazing. So now he's continued it. And um long story short, yeah. I just listened to an episode that went for a run this morning and listened to an episode with um uh the singer from this band called Cast, who uh they're from they're from that 90s period, you're talking about Liverpool band. And he was exact, he was saying something similar about when he when the 90s when Oasis, Cast, Verve, all these bands exploded. It was literally 30 years after the Beatles. And he he went to the same school as John Lennon, so he was very, it didn't seem that crazy that you could be a famous musician. But then he was saying this massive Oasis tour, which again I think is going to US, but in UK has been insane, like you couldn't get tickets. Um this is 30 years later, and he was just saying, like, now there's there's something like 70,000 people a night going to see this Oasis cast and Richard Ashcroft. It's almost like a reverberation. So 30 years between Beatles and Oasis, and Oasis are basically the Beatles, um, just a bit more rock and roll, maybe. And then now it's another 30 years, so maybe now is the time, is what I'm saying. So maybe it's more of a 30 years rather than baby boomer type thing. So I don't know, I'm I'm wondering if this it may not be true in America, but here Oasis have just taken over the the culture again after 30 years of being away, 25 years of being away. So if they inspire a lot more musicians and bands to get into that music and their influences, uh out of a hunch couple years, we'll have a bunch of really great rock and roll bands, I hope. Yeah, it's funny, I just heard that this morning, um John Power. It's a brilliant, brilliant band. Love that band cast. Um, like a 90s. It came out of the a band called The Lars, which they're that big song, There She Goes, is on a bunch of movies and um yeah, into the weeds. But yeah, yeah, so I think you're right, but I wonder, I have a hope. More hopeful, yeah, something coming.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I hope also. Um I was kind of resigned to the idea that you know we're in this cultural doldrum. Um because it it's it hasn't just been music, it's been movies also, you know. When's the last time a classic movie has come out? It's been a long time.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's Spinal Tap is my all-time favorite movie. I just got my ticket for the uh Spinal Tap 2, September 12th, or mid-September is coming out. Um yeah, I love saw them play a bunch of times actually. You know, they're obviously uh comedians and a and uh pretend band, but yeah, I love that whole thing. I saw them in uh the Warfield in San Francisco, and they had uh definitely no Spinal Tap, but like a they pretend to be uh English band. And Nigel Tefnell is actually Christopher Guest, famous actor director, but he's a guitarist, he always has a guitar battle, and I'm sitting there watching Joe Satriani comes out and they're like having a guitar duel. It's like, oh, this is this is so funny. Yeah. Um that's that's the medium of the book too.
SPEAKER_01I love Spinal Tap. Um, me and my boys watched that uh maybe last year or something like that. They loved it too.
SPEAKER_00So if you're a musician on on tour, like we were I was on a tour bus for like three, four months at a time, all around America, Europe. That would be on possibly every day. I've probably seen that 200 times and recite everywhere because all musicians that is their favorite, or bands, should I say, especially if you're on tour. It's like it's just it it helps you kind of laugh at the all the all the I mean, it all happens, so it's just yeah, the irony is uh yeah, love that. But it's coming out in uh next month. Just just bought my ticket.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, me and I'm definitely gonna go see it. Um I didn't really so does does you know they're a fictional band, Spinal Tap, but they really do have music. Did did they actually tour and play?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean I did not realize that.
SPEAKER_00I saw them and the actual play the theater that I worked at. I was telling about where I did the Bob Dylan thing, they had a gig there when I was living, I'd got into tech. Yeah, this is where my tech story got. I got into tech by the 2000 moved to San Francisco. I saw Spinal Tap were booked at this Sun Theatre. I was saying on the phone, hey, I'm coming down, so yeah, got got in for free. And then wildly, yeah, when I it must have all been around 2000 because I went to I would admit, I went to Java One conference um in San Francisco and Spinal Tap were the the band with Gary Husband on drums, which is crazy. And I saw them at the Warfield and I saw them in uh Oakland as well, Oakland, California. Yeah, so I saw them quite a few times. Wow. Um they opened as a hilarious. I mean, this is very boring for anyone listening. I apologize, but they opened for themselves um as a folk band called uh what are they called? Oh, I forgot what they're called now, but um anyway, yeah, they came out uh you know, beards and they were doing like rolling stones covers. It was like, hang on a minute, this is this is uh this is the guest and uh keeping um it was so good. Oh my god, I missed that. I'm hoping this media's in garbage, which it probably is, but um we also John and Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I saw the trailer and I'm like, this this does not look funny. Um which I I hate to say because I want it to be good, you know.
SPEAKER_00Um but I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, the amount of time I've I've quoted things in that movie, you know, when I was touring as well, like you'd say, listen to the sustain on that, and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Um I saw I saw the preview for the the trailer for uh the new Naked Gun movie, and it didn't make it look that funny. But then we saw it in the theater and it it was actually great. So I'm hoping it's another thing like that.
SPEAKER_00Oh my very strange when my wife's wife and daughter just went over to LA because a family live over there, and her sister, this is very convoluted, but her sister's boyfriend is the editor of that movie. So she's actually in a scene of it. She has she sent a little screenshot.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_00So I do want to I do want to see that just to like see a microsecond of my sister-in-law, but other than that. I did used to love those movies, but this is a long time ago.
SPEAKER_01Well uh with uh Leslie Nielsen and I I can I can have a claim to fame now if I can remember that chain. It's like the the I interviewed a guy on my podcast whose sister yeah, I don't even remember.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a long, it's a long chain. And she's in it for I don't know how long she's in it. I saw a screenshot, it could be like 50th of a second. Okay. I did actually, I did uh I was involved in making a movie when I was in the in music. Um I don't remember how that came to pass, but one one of the guys from the specials is got approached by this guy who had an idea for a movie. Um yeah, it's Hollywood. What is this rubbish? But it turned out he had Michael Madsen, uh who just passed away actually, uh, that was going to be the star of it. Um and he kind of told us about it's about a vampire who enters a 12-step program to get out of his addiction.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So it's a bit strange, but uh, he told us the story, and from that we wrote also I wrote co wrote two of the songs. Oh nice. And I uh played guitar and sang on a couple of them, and we recorded them at I get this band called Oingo Boingo, who are quite big in America. But the guy has a Yeah, but then uh um that's my movie Claim to Fame. Um got a couple songs on there.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow. What was that movie called?
SPEAKER_00I think I got I think I cleared at least 200 bucks for that. At least it's called um uh Vampires Anonymous. Okay, it's really bad. It's not that bad. And I've seen the other star of it crop up in some like really cool movie. I thought I recognized that guy IMDB, yeah, it's him. Okay, wow. Um but yeah, that was a bit of crossover. I was I was kind of managing this guy, and then occasionally, if he didn't have a guitarist, I'd have to get up and play guitar or play we'd have a gig in you know, Tempe, Arizona, and oh Steve can't make it, you gotta play. Oh Jesus, get up and do some ska uh chops. Um but some night, yeah. We we did a few ska songs, which are also really bad to be honest. That's right. When I was looking up on MDB, I saw the review and it just said someone said something like uh just the worst ska music I've ever heard or something. It's excellent.
From Sound Engineer To Software
SPEAKER_01Well, now I have to look that up. Um so I've I've burned most of our time on the music stuff, but I do want to ask you about computers. Um yeah, yeah. So d how did you get into what you're doing now of CTO of Mindful Chef?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, kinda like I was always into programming, like I said, and always been a self-starter, and I don't know, just get programming. I don't know why. I don't can't really explain it, but um joined uh joined a company that was setting up in America, an English, big English company consultancy, but they didn't have anyone, and I happened to be a dual citizen by then. So it's quite nice they could hire someone who spoke the Queen's English. Um they felt they could trust. So yeah, I did that for about two years, and that was all the EJB. It was it was painful, but it was really good learning ground. Um, and then I got a job. Um where did I get a job? And then again, pretty much blind off the back of music, did an interview just like this the job interview. Started talking about music and scarbands, and uh the lady interviewing me just was like, okay, we're gonna hire you. Uh that was pretty much it. Did that for a few years, yeah, progressed a bit. But then um, so my wife is uh she's American but Japanese. Um I always had this kind of dream since I saw the original Shogun. If you've seen Shogun on Disney, um yeah, the original Shogun in the 80s, I just got absolutely fascinated by Japan. And it was a it was a dream of mine to just visit Japan, which I did actually in my music career. But um yeah, and I kind of made it my mission to see what opportunities there were in Japan. And I found this company called CookPad. Just randomly met this guy in an event in uh Palo Alto in America, hit it off really well, long story short, moved the family to Japan. Um and at that time I was already a CTO of a company in San Francisco, but I said, Look, I just want to write code, I do not want any managerial, just let me write code. I love building things, this is my superpower. Pretty soon I'm a CTO of Cookpad, um, and did that for 14 years, actually, believe it or not. Um seven in Japan, and then we set up an office in the UK and got to build a an insane team here, so good. Um, the founder of Cookpad, an amazing guy, and he's very grateful for the technology that the platform's built on. Um, so he's invested a lot in conferences. Um, also the Rails Foundation been one of the original um company's um core members, and also we employed um Koichi and Endosan, who's the two main Ruby core team members in Japan for six or seven years, I think. Um so yeah, I got a real quick um real great insight into Ruby and Rousse. And yeah, set up this company in the UK. I had a team, we've got up to about 100 people in the UK, believe it or not. But such a fantastic group of developers, which I think this is another thing. I am quite good at it. I don't like to say I'm good at anything, but I am quite good at finding people that like to work together. Um, and I see a bunch of them now work at Shopify, some at 37 Signals, that they've all gone on to great things as the company kind of trimmed down a bit.
SPEAKER_01You know, I I think that's really important. Um, people who like to work together, it's it's something that I don't hear about a lot.
SPEAKER_00Um this comes from bands though, because you're on a bus with 12 guys for nine months basically. The bands are really difficult because bands just come together through whatever, they don't often like each other. But if you if you're in close yeah, if you're working with people eight hours a day, five days a week for 14 years, you you might as well find people that you get on with and can you know enjoy what you're doing. It's critical, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. And there's it it's not just for the enjoyment of the individuals either. There's a certain yeah, you're gonna do with the.
SPEAKER_00That's how you get to progress. Absolutely, because you feed off each other and you you're loving it. You're I'm actually doing it right now. So after after Cookpad, I moved on to this company called Mindful Chef, which I was actually gearing down, you know, getting old, thinking I don't really need to work. Um, but they were they needed a CTO, they used Rails, they're a recipe company, and Cookpad was recipe company, rail. I thought I've got to talk to these guys, and this was you know, 18 months ago, still got dragged in and and loving it, built a great team, building a lot of code, and and it yeah, you you you it's like a flywheel if you get that positive, if you got people arguing and complaining about you know Yang Four or whatever Dave Thomas was talking about on your podcast when I was uh vehemently nodding along. Um it's not fun. It's a different kind of fun. But I want to be building products and solving problems and having you know doing great stuff.
Building Teams, Culture, And Rails Joy
SPEAKER_01This is a whole can of worms we could spend a lot of time on if we wanted to, but like arguing, you know. I I think developers should actually spend perhaps more time arguing, um, but in in a different kind of way. Because there's there's bickering, but then there's debating, um, and and debates and and arguments, and in the sense of like presenting arguments, like here's my argument for why we should do it this way. I think that's a really good, healthy, necessary thing, just like in a band, you know, arguing about this this one part of the song or whatever. Like, if if everybody's polite to each other and they're just like, Oh, yeah, that's that's great, whatever you want to do, you know, the music's the music's gonna suffer. Yeah, you have to be like, no, like that thing you just played, and this is where the relationship part is important. That part you just played, that sucks. I hate that. We're not gonna put that in the song, like, no, and you have to have a strong enough relationship where you can say that kind of thing to each other, and and there's a mutual respect where it's just like, okay, yeah, maybe maybe you think it sucks, maybe it does. Okay, we won't put that part in.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, I think I think there's uh maybe there's another layer to that, but I've like I haven't really been coding a whole lot. I do a lot, I have a bunch of side projects, um, which is a whole nother story, but um for work I tend to do more of the management, leadership, you know, that kind of stuff. But uh, we've got this big project on, and I've just been rolled up my sleeves and just still which I think also is a bit terrifying for a lot of people, like, oh, why the hell is he getting involved? But I don't think I'm that bad. But it's not necessarily arguing, but it's different perspective, and I love to see how people respond to like just something as simple as a PR uh feedback. Because I went on a PR. I I've seen that escalate into like World War III. Whereas if if someone's got you know, maybe I just don't have strong enough held opinions, but if someone can clearly articulate why there's a better way to do something, I'm like, amazing, thank you so much. This is so much better, I love it. Or I disagree, this is why. But you have to agree to disagree, that's where things go wrong, and you have this like nitpicky, you know, pointless commenting I've seen so much, and that that kind of arguing is the death of everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there has to be a discernment between what's worth arguing about and what's not. Um, and I think an argument is only is for me, an argument is only interesting if both people are open to changing their minds. Exactly right. Yeah, because otherwise it's just a holy war kind of thing. That's why talking about politics and religion is so it can be so awful and why it's so uninteresting to me most of the time, is because nobody's gonna change their mind. And so, what's the point of having these heated arguments if you know that nobody's gonna budge?
SPEAKER_00I have very strong opinions, but I'm not gonna argue or talk about them with anyone because it's for exactly the reasons you just said, it's pointless. Um unless I want to run for office, and then yeah, but that's not I'm too old at least. Um that's not of interest to me. But um, yeah, I but yeah, I think that building great teams and and finding great people. And I I do find I think I think you've mentioned or someone's mentioned, or you run your own conference, and it's it is a luxury to be able to go to conferences, but even local meetups, you know, when people say I can't afford to go to a conference, just taking that extra step of giving up some of your free time, again, that's also a luxury, but finding an hour in a month to spend time with other people who are interested in tech, that is a massive signal to someone I want to work with, versus someone who's like locking into a bank, right? Looking out the window, tap, tap, tap, gone, and there's so many people like that. Just just that simple filter, you're gonna win. Um a lot of people will say, We need, oh, we need five people, we've got to get these people who just talking into the bank because we need them on the seats. I'm like, no, I'll do the work myself. We'll we're not doing it, we're gonna find the right people. Um, you know, you can't spend long enough hiring. Uh and I've I've got an amazing, I'm just saying blown a month blown my own trumpet, but we have an amazing team at Cookpad. And I think they're a pretty great team in my new place. I'm thinking, hmm. There's something in this, this strategy, whatever it is. Um, yeah. It is a lot. It just makes it a joy to go to work. I mean, why would you want to go to work and just have it stressful and yeah, I don't understand it. And rail, I think Rails is a perfect thing for this because you can have an idea, get it out there in the afternoon. You know, I I lost a lot of weight in the pandemic. Um I don't know how I got so out of shape, but I lost 50 kilograms. Um and I had a strategy in my mind, and I was using my fitness pan, I hated it, it was really annoying. So I thought, oh, I could build my own app. Hotwine Native, Joe Mazzelotti, massive help to me. Just sent him a few emails and he was incredible. Um I got my app in the App Store. Um it's just a joy to to work on with Rails. It's just so if you can find people who share that joy and have a common goal with your you know, work life, it's feel like I haven't worked in you know 25. I feel like I've never worked because I've always been able to do things that I love and work with people generally I like.
Healthy Debates, PRs, And Hiring
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I'm very fortunate to have that going on right now. Um, I I work with some people who I really like and I look forward to interacting with them every day. It's it's a really special thing. Um, I know we have to go soon. Um, I wanted to mention one thing to you before we do go. Um we we we talked about conferences a little bit. I'm loosely planning a conference for next year, 2026. Um, and I'm trying to just excuse me, I'm trying to talk about it on the podcast to get the word out and stuff like that. It's not a done deal. It it might not happen, but the the idea of the conference is it's gonna be in northern Michigan, probably in the fall. Um in like a small town, um, kind of a you know, resort area type thing on the water. And it's gonna be maybe kind of an unconference type thing. I just want to gather some some really cool, interesting people together and just have a good time and help people form relationships, that kind of thing. Which is the same idea with Sin City Ruby. Um, but I want to do this again focus on a nature setting and and stuff like that. Very different from Las Vegas where there's lights and noise and stuff like that. Um anyway, I I wanted to let you know, Miles, about this because uh I just wanted to invite you personally to this conference because I think it would be really cool to have you there. I know it's are are you in England now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I the conferences are really like I love the tech and I love what we learn, but I just love meeting the people as well. So I've been lucky to I've been you know RailsConf so many times, Ruby Kaigi, probably eight or nine times in Japan, Ruby Russia before Russia was not a place to go, and all over Europe, but also more significantly, I think Railsworld I've been involved. Um obviously Amanda does like 99.99% of all the work. I've done a tiny bit around talk selection, um, this kind of thing for the last two and the current one coming up. Um I do love the talks, but it's it's the it's given chance to spend time with the people. So the thing you're talking about sounds it's just how you make it laterally, because it's I've never actually thought about that. But like with a conference, you're all there you know for the conference, but even though maybe you don't watch all the talks and you're just hanging out with people, that's loosely why you're there. Right. So maybe there's gotta be a thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the talks are kind of the stone in the stone soup.
SPEAKER_00Like I'm going to SF Ruby, I decided a few moments ago. Um just you know, friends with uh Irina, and there's a lot of great again, seeing the people she's got speaking. Hmm, I think I need to be there. And I used to live in San Francisco for 10 years, so it's a good excuse to uh go. And I was actually at I sent something on uh Blue Sky. I think I was I found on my um meetup.com account I'd gone to a meetup at the Twitter office in 2006 of SF Ruby before they were Twitter, when they were ODO.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, I didn't even know that they were something else before Twitter.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, my uh my office at the time was just over the road. So I used to see Jack would be in. I used to go to the same thing called Cafe Centro on uh South Park. Every day I'd get this resear sandwich, so good. Um he'd be in there. The original, original guys, they had a pod funny, it was a podcast, seems like before its time now. I'm saying out loud, there's like a podcast directory called Odeo. And Twitter kind of just spun out as an idea from that. But yeah, but they hosted SF Ruby, and there'd be like 15 people down there drinking acostine from their fridge. Um yeah, and so I mean as like resuscitated SF Ruby. I thought this is this is pretty cool. 20 years later I should I should make the effort to go to one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's great. I've thought for a while it's like, why doesn't San Francisco have a Ruby conference and now they do?
SPEAKER_00Well, probably like what I don't know how you yeah, this is this is your challenge. But yeah, how do you I definitely love to come, of course, but how do you that's something that's makes you feel like you have to be there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, uh hope you can make it. Um I'll be you know, if it ends up happening, I'll I'll put up more information and send it out, obviously. Um before we go, uh any anything you'd like to uh share with people uh where they can find out what you're up to or whatever you want to share.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm not that interesting, to be honest. I was I was blogging, I sent myself a challenge to blog every two weeks um last year, which I did, and then it just fell off a cliff. Um so I've got some it's a bit annoying as well, because I think it's Google's algorithm, but I was just looking for something about you know the allow browser thing in Rails 8, and my blog post comes up first, and I don't want to read my own blog post because obviously if that was any good, I would know the answer. But yeah, that's just mileswoodraft.com. Um it was pretty cool that at uh Rails World, the first one in Amsterdam, I was seen in the audience, and David was doing his keynote, and then I saw something on the screen, I was like, that looks like my blog post. And he he called out my uh I had an example of um uh Hot Wine or Turbo Native as it was called at the time. Yeah, and he used my gave me a name check, which was pretty cool. So yeah, that was but yeah, the blog I do need to try and get back to that. Um yeah, and I'm on Blue Sky. I try Twitter's a bit depressing, so I don't you know it's not cool to say you don't use Twitter anymore, but I was there day one, uh, so maybe I can be the first to leave. Um yeah, that and LinkedIn, I guess, is then my other sad place to hang out, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, the internet can be kind of a depressing place in general, but that's a whole different story. Um, but um I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's been great to talk music with you and and computers and stuff like that. Um hopefully we can talk again sometime soon. And thanks for thanks so much for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks a lot for the invite. Been great to get to know you, Jason, and uh maybe see you in Amsterdam or somewhere.
SPEAKER_01Hopefully.