131: Culture clash: When the ‘black sheep’ of the family forces us to learn

Parenting is a hard enough, but doing it in a culture that is different from the one we grew up in creates an extra layer of challenges to navigate. When it's our kids who have the greatest connection to that new culture it can be their demands that make us grow the most in our role.

It might seem strange, because I'm a white woman who always spoke English and had English parents, but arriving in the UK from the African continent aged 10 was a total shock to my system. There were very specific cultural cues that I had to deliberately learn, but obviously the differences were eased by the fact that my parents came from this culture. 

So when I met the podcaster, Amma, I was fascinated by how she and her family have had to navigate living in a country where the language and societal beliefs are so different both inside and outside the family unit, and how Amma was the person who ended up having to coax and cajole her parents to grow into their adopted country.  

We parents can learn so much from her story about what is at the heart of good parenting, and having a relationship that will last into adulthood.

AMMA BROWN GIRL:

https://shows.acast.com/amma-brown-girl-1

https://www.instagram.com/ammabrowngirl/

Transcript

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards, parenting coach, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now I've had a terrific email from Katie who says, I really love your podcast, and have recommended it at least 10 times to fellow parents. Katie, thank you so much. I don't have a marketing budget, so all of the growth comes from your generosity. She carries on. It has given me understanding, patience, tools, calmness. I feel much better equipped, and my relationship with my kids is just deepening. I also dread the teenage years, much less even though I'm already melancholic about them not needing me in the same way. Finally, I have become an addict to the podcast, even though my kids are not even 11 yet. But everything you do with being connected helps at every stage, and I wish I would have had that same knowledge and calm when they were even smaller. So thank you for all that wonderful research and input, Katie, I feel the same way. I mean, I wish I'd understood this stuff when my kids were little. Anyway, Katie went on to say that she had the impression that most of the interviewees come from the United States or from the UK, and all had broadly similar views on success and functioning in our capitalist society. Sometimes she wishes I'd also find people from Sri Lanka, Nigeria, Vietnam, to broaden the very Anglo Saxon view. Katie, that's a really good point. I think the reason I tend to get Anglo Saxon interviewees is because those are the books I'm reading and because they're in English. But I really like your suggestion. When I was a parent gym coach in inner city London, most of my parents were from different cultures, and I I absolutely loved working with them. The Nigerian mums have a very different approach, and being in England felt quite challenging to them. So I'm going to dig around and see what I can find. I think it could be incredibly useful, because when we are immersed in our own specific culture, it can have a very powerful impact on the way we see things. But that doesn't mean to say it's right, and it can really help to hear other ways of doing things so we can make informed decisions. With that in mind, my guest today is the Gen Z podcaster known as Amma. Brown Girl, Emma grew up in England, but she's from an immigrant family. Her parents spoke Punjabi at home, and they only learnt English as she grew up. Her podcast is aimed at opening up conversations about all of the things her community don't discuss. So it's absolutely fascinating. I met her at a podcast show last year, and loved her black sheep energy and honesty about the way she's been parented. So I thought, Look, weak. Parents could always learn from something like this. And hearing her views now am I identifies herself as Desi. So I started out by asking her what Desi means. Look, do

Amma Browngirl: 2:51

you know what I'm just before I explain that I really like that. I have a white girl asking me this, because I'm like, wow, we love teaching. We love educating. This. I love learning is this is a word that I've just grown up using, and it's a way to describe someone who is, I guess, South Asian, who takes part in a lot of this culture, or, like Indian culture. But this isn't specific just to Indian. You could this. He could be Bangladesh, Pakistan, like whoever, really, but this, you can be this food or they see festivals. It's just a way of saying our culture. They see culture, South Indian culture.

Rachel Richards: 3:34

That's really helpful. So your parents were they first generation immigrants to the UK,

Amma Browngirl: 3:40

yeah. So they moved, they got well, my Yeah, my dad moved here first, and then my mum, well, they got married, and then he bought her over here, and then they, they just had me and my brother. So yeah,

Rachel Richards: 3:52

and did you speak a language other than English in your home?

Amma Browngirl: 3:56

Yes. So I spoke Punjabi until I was five, I think, and then I think I was going to school as well, but I would still speak Punjabi at school. And I really struggled with English for a long time. I mean, I speak English now fine, but Punjabi is main language at home, and I speak that fluently. Okay?

Rachel Richards: 4:15

And do your parents? Are they comfortable with English?

Amma Browngirl: 4:19

Yes. I mean, my mom didn't speak English for years, but what my dad used to do, he used to give her, like, errands to run, but on a piece of paper, he would write, oh, I want to put this check in, but in Punjabi, and he'd make her go to the bank and say that. And then slowly, like we started going to school, we started teaching her, but now they speak English fine. They just sometimes pretend that they can't because they're just more comfortable than Javid, but they speak English,

Rachel Richards: 4:43

of course, of course. So, so what I establish is that, of course, you've got a home there where what they've done is they brought their own culture and their own way of life and their own language to a foreign what felt like a foreign country originally, and they've slowly transitioned and of course. You were in that first wave of of people who was who were actually sort of taking on some of the Western values. So I wanted to sort of get that, get that out in the open first. So you as a female growing up in a Jesse household, because I've listened to a lot of your podcast episodes, it's a very interesting thing for me to to to look into, because there was so much focus on your body. Can you talk a bit more about how your culture impacted the way you as a young girl grew up?

Amma Browngirl: 5:28

Sure, so growing up, I, I think just to just start with in terms of, like my height and just the my general build, I'm five foot 10, so I'm quite tall, same as my daughter. And yes, so, so, you know, like, from it, like, even with your daughter, you know, from a young age, people are gonna think she's a lot older than she probably is, just because of her height. I was also a little bit chubby as well as a kid, so naturally, like, people just thought, Oh, she's much older than she was, but I wasn't. I was. I may have looked like it, but I was still a child. And I think that just unfortunately, with the pressure and the judgment of society, because I was treated a lot older, I at that age you think, oh, okay, if I, if I'm being treated older, then I must act older. So obviously, having, like, body image issues was something that started really young, then also being confused as to, oh, why am I Brown? But, like, all my friends are white, and like, Why do I look like this? And then even with my parents, because they were so busy just, you know, living in survival mode, they do not have the time to tell me, Oh, you're perfect the way you are, or we love you the way you are, or you are beautiful the way you are. They just didn't have the time. Like you can ask any busy parent, they do not have the time to be telling their kids that, especially in that time, like back in the day. Do you know what I mean? So growing up with body image issues was just, was just the standard, really, for me.

Rachel Richards: 7:03

And that because, because I you talked quite a bit about the the sexualization of of the body and how women are viewed in your culture. And again, I'm just curious about, if you can explain how that is, and then we can talk about how that relates to the the you know, what you were experiencing in school and and different ways of seeing things, sure.

Amma Browngirl: 7:25

So I don't know if I can generalize here, but based on my personal experience when it came to sex, specifically, and the sexual sexualization of my body, it was very much. Oh, okay, she's a grown woman. We can kind of look at her that way. And it's disgusting to say that that was the truth. And you know, even hearing some of my friends stories about how growing up, they were very comfortable with their bodies, because, for example, they'd see their mom naked, which to me, was just mind blowing, because I've never seen my mom naked like, right? It is mad that was utter bonkers to me. So like to think that I've got friends who have grown up very comfortably with seeing a naked body, and for me, it took me probably 20 years to get comfortable with my body, and before that, I'd see a naked body and think, oh my god. Like no, no. Sex, sex, sex like, because that's all I knew until I met a good group, until I met a good group of friends, until I educated and healed myself to understand that a naked body does not equal sex. It's just a beautiful naked body, and that is it.

Rachel Richards: 8:36

Yeah, yeah. So do you think that? So do you think that's quite a cultural thing? Because I think one of the what I'm trying to guess at with this interview that I think is so interesting, because I grew up in Africa, moving around all the time. We lived in Spain, then we came to England, and I felt quite other, like I didn't feel very, very English, and yet, of course, I fit in much more than you would. And I'm just wondering whether this is something that was heightened by the fact that other people around you were talking and behaving maybe differently. Or do you feel like that? Because I think there is an old fashioned way of looking at bodies anyway, that that infused our culture. And I remember growing up in a very sexist, very sort of people would talk talk very offensively about girls bodies. So I just wonder whether that you know, to what extent you feel like there's that's very a cultural thing, or what, whether you think that it's just an overhang from the way we always used to talk about girls bodies.

Amma Browngirl: 9:35

Yeah, I would definitely say it's a cultural thing. I mean, anytime I would have an uncle or a man come into the house, and this is including my dad. And I feel very vulnerable sharing this, but it's got to be said that anytime a man would come into the house, I'd be expected to cover up as a child. Interesting, why do I need to cover up? Yeah, I'm in my home. Yeah, I'd like to wear what I want. It's not like I'm wearing anything crazy. You know, but it was very much just, oh, I need to get a scarf over my chest or, you know, just need to cover up a little bit. I can't give a full on hug to my uncle. I've got to give a side hug as a child. Why do I need to do that? Why do I need to do that? And I think over time, there has been a lot more education in our culture that, you know you shouldn't be making girls do that. They're in their home. They'd like to be comfortable. You don't need to send your daughters to another room. It's unfortunate that, you know, we're taught from such a young age that all men are this dangerous thing, and they look at you in a sexual way. But it's like, well, if I know that from such a young age, how am I going to be able to maintain healthy relationships with men in the future if I want to have them romantically. So yeah, I do think it's a cultural thing.

Rachel Richards: 10:47

Yeah, and these messages are really and they come across even if you're not explicit about them. So they were very explicit in your home, but even just, you know, referring to the clothes you're wearing, and it can make girls feel very uncomfortable about well, how are these people looking at me, what about what about marriage and dating? Because, you know, you You talk a lot about how how much pressure you came under to get married, and how the dating would or wouldn't work. So what can you talk to us about the you know, how it's viewed in your culture?

Amma Browngirl: 11:20

I'm laughing right now, because it's not even been 10 minutes, Rachel, when you're already asking me about marriage. Like, give us a break, yes, yes,

Rachel Richards: 11:28

because you're talking about it on your podcast. And I think it goes with this whole Yeah,

Amma Browngirl: 11:33

there was so much pressure. Like, I think I the earliest memory I probably have talking about marriage was probably seven, six or seven, and it was just the small comment of, oh my gosh, she's so tall. How are we gonna get her married? Sorry, excuse me, marriage. I'm out here playing with Barbies. Why do I care about marriage? So it, it was something that was always mentioned very early on. It's common in our culture to have that mentioned from early on, because it's just this expectation that you're going to get married one day. It's just something you have to do. And it's not only just the marriage aspect of it, it's marriage is expected as well as a child, there's, there's so much that goes to it, and having to know that from such a young age is not great. You feel like, oh, okay, so as a woman, is my only purpose to just have married, sorry, get married and have kids. Like, is that it? But me, being me, I guess the black sheep of the family. I was like, No, I'm not doing that. I've got more to live for. Like, I want to go traveling. I want to experience things. I want to have different types of relationships. I want to know who I am. And just the thought, the thought of getting married to a man, was insane to me, and I thought like that for probably 2021, years of my life where I thought, Okay, I'm gonna get married at 25 have a kid and live happily ever after, and now I'm 25 I'm a lesbian. I live by myself. I've just been traveling, and I don't have any plans on getting married. So

Rachel Richards: 13:17

how does that? How does that sit with your family? Because I was going to come on to that. So obviously, again, you're same sex attracted, which you do mention it in your podcast. I mean, it's really interesting. There's so many really interesting things, but how did you tell your parents? I mean, were they prepared?

Amma Browngirl: 13:36

Um, I think, I think with my parents. Parents are not dumb. They like to be they like to give this image that, oh, we're parents. That was your period than you, that we know more than you, but at the end of the day, you're still a human being. They're not thick. They have some level of emotional intelligence, and they know me, and they know how I've always been, in terms of, you know, the black sheep, and standing my ground. So in terms of it being a shock, I'd say yes and no, because I'd say no, because they know what I'm like yes, because they were like, I hope it's not true, but it is, and I guess that was the shock factor of it. But, I mean, that's all I can say on that, really. But how did you, how did you,

Rachel Richards: 14:26

how did you tell them?

Amma Browngirl: 14:30

I told my dad first, actually, I have I had a better relationship with my dad, and now I'd say I have a better relationship with both my parents, separately and together, but at the time, I told my dad, I said to him, right, let's go and get coffee. And it just got to the point where I was so sick of hiding this part of me because I was like, right, we haven't had a good relationship for many years. I'm clearly getting closer with you. I really love and care about you, and. And just the thought of living this lie whilst maintaining and growing this relationship with you feels wrong, and I just can't hide this massive secret anymore. And I'm so in love with my partner. So you know parent, I think parents can see that when their kids in love. And I just took my dad for a coffee. Was in Stratford, M, S, so, so beige, I know. So, yeah. So sat him down, and I was like, right? I need to tell you something. And I think, I think he actually said it. He was like, Are you a lesbian? And I said, Yes, I think I was more, I think I was more shocked by the fact that my dad knew the word lesbian. Interesting.

Rachel Richards: 15:41

Like, you

Amma Browngirl: 15:42

know, the word lesbian, what that means you about these things, you're not clueless that you you it shows how human you are. And he took it really well, actually, shockingly, um, but it was only for about two weeks. I think he ended up telling my mum, and then obviously my mum was like, no, no, no. And obviously they're married, so her input is gonna be bigger on him, because he's married to her. And I think mentally, you can be easily swayed by that, unfortunately. So it was really tough, and now I think my parents are at a point of accepting the fact that, okay, this is what it is. She's gonna do what she wants. We can't stop her, and they would rather maintain a good, loving, happy relationship with me, regardless. Interesting. I really appreciate that it's not something that I wow exclusively bring up to them in terms of, oh, I'm a lesbian, and I did this with my girlfriend and blah, blah, blah, because I just think, I just think, what's the point? But at the same time, I appreciate that. As brown this the ethnic immigrant parents, they were willing to take that information and love me regardless. So

Rachel Richards: 16:59

that must have been quite hard for them, because, well, I'm interested in in how this, there are a couple of things, lots of threads here. And then what interests me is how they cope with the culture. Because the culture because, obviously they're living amongst their kindred spirits and people who are from your culture, and they will feel fear and pressure to conform. So having a child that doesn't conform can feel very isolating, or it just, you know, they have to kind of like, what's wrong with us that we did this, which is not true at all, but that's kind of how parents can feel when their child isn't fitting a cookie cutter ideal. So how do you think your parents navigated that?

Amma Browngirl: 17:46

Really difficult. I think they still navigate it, if I'm completely honest, and I really like the word that you used, which was conform, because I completely get it. I think to my surprise, like when I was in India for about three weeks, and you live in that society, and you experience what it's like, and you realize that the only way to be successful, or be deemed as successful in India is to get married and have a child, because that's what society over there accepts. So even me, being brought up in this generation being very open minded, very Western, having lived in that society for three weeks in India, and feeling like, oh my god, like, is something wrong with me? Why am I not

Unknown: 18:32

married to a man so interesting? Should I marry her man? Why have a child? And

Amma Browngirl: 18:38

that was only in three weeks. So I have a lot of respect for them that, you know, they spent such a massive part of their life in a society that expected marriage and kids from them to then have a child who ended up being gay, then having to unlearn those habits and experiences and pressures and expectations is a lot to deal with, so I give them so much grace when it comes to that.

Rachel Richards: 19:07

Yes, and I you have actually said that you feel like parents, particularly immigrant parents, don't give themselves enough credit for what they managed to achieve. No, no, is it? Is it because of what you're just saying now? Are there other things that you think

Amma Browngirl: 19:22

so much to it like, I sometimes think about, like, how difficult it must have been for my parents to come to a country where no one speaks their language, where at the time, like, racism was very heightened. You know, having to navigate that is so difficult I just cannot imagine. I went traveling for three and a half months across Southeast Asia, and I felt so out of place. So I cannot imagine what it felt for my parents when they came to this country, trying to make a better life for themselves,

Rachel Richards: 19:54

yes, and not having that support. Because a lot of people, lot of parents, say, oh, you know, where's my village? Where's my Kim? Community and actually actively not having a support community. You know, your parents probably living in another country. All those things can make it very, you know, and probably not having a very high income either. So you're having to navigate all of these things at the same time as having to, because we grew up ourselves when we parent, you know, we we all never really start out understanding what we're supposed to be doing, we slowly learn as we go along, but, but it was a process, and I think you've explained in some really good detail about how your mental health was affected when you were quite young as a result of feeling like you did, because you called yourself a black sheep and feeling like you were like that. What can you explain to us what what that felt like, and why you felt like the black sheep.

Amma Browngirl: 20:47

I think when God was deciding who he was going to pick out of my entire bloodline to solve it or fix it, he just had to choose me, didn't he, so just pick me, and I'm like, Why me? But at the same time, just, it was really hard. That's, that's the only thing. It was so hard. It was

Rachel Richards: 21:13

so what helped you

Amma Browngirl: 21:17

stick into my mind, I'm interested. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 21:19

no, but I'm also interested because, were there any techniques, or anything that you did? Because I think you've mentioned journaling, there are a lot of parents who've got kids who are struggling with their environment for whatever reason. What sort of things really helped you navigate that you know, because you didn't really have your parents at that time, what things helped you?

Amma Browngirl: 21:38

Okay, so there's two parts of that, in terms of being the black sheep. Yes, it was very hard. I always felt very out of place and confused as to here's this part of me that's super Indian, and I love the Indian side of me, and here's this western side of me that I also love, but I don't know how to put them together. The thing that really helped me was journaling, for sure. Um, I used to do a lot of the why exercises, so it's very much like, I'll write down why I'm upset, and then ask the question as to why, to that answer, and keep going, Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Until I kind of like that, figure it out as best as I can. And that really helped me. But more importantly, on top of that, I actually left home when I was 18 for uni, because at that point, I was like, right, if I don't leave, there's no hope for me. I was going to leave under any circumstances. And that was the I knew that if I don't leave, it would never get better. I think as children who do feel like the black sheep, very often, they feel like, okay, like, maybe it will get better. Maybe my parents will get better, but if you don't change your environment, unfortunately, it won't get better, because there's no room for change. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 22:49

yeah. I think I experienced the same thing. I left home at 16, and then had to come back for a while, and as soon as I could get out, I did, because, like you said, I think we're all having to grow. And if you're with people who finding it hard to grow, then you sort of have to break the mold before things can get better. And why do you think your parents? How is your your relationship with your parents improved? Because there are lots of parents nowadays, particularly, I've seen a lot of stuff in America of parents who kids have gone no contact and and it's devastating. So what do you think?

Amma Browngirl: 23:24

I think, firstly, in terms of my relationship with my parents being better. Now, that is something that has taken years and years and years. I mean, it went from me blocking, ghosting, going no contact. You know, times where I was being stalked by like relatives, and it was really difficult, because I was just like, I want some space to breathe. A child, no matter how old they are, they just want to be loved by their parents, absolutely. So for me to have to take a step back to heal, do the inner work. I needed the space. I needed the space, the blocking and the ghosting was was an essential part of the journey for me to get to where I am now, but also for my parents to get to where they are now, because all I've ever wanted for both of my parents was to be independent, happy, actually put themselves first, because a lot of immigrant parents are in survival mode for their whole lives, and I just wanted them to be happy and live live life for themselves as well. So the the whole going no contact thing, yes, it's very hard, but I think if it's something that you're going through right now, see it as an opportunity to grow and heal and look inwards. It takes two to tango. And as a human being, we're never perfect. We all make mistakes, and it's very easy to blame someone else. And. Be like, oh, but you did this and you're wrong and blah, blah, blah, it's because of your ego and the anger is getting in the way, but maybe just taking a step back and thinking, Okay, I'm not perfect. Maybe I've done something wrong too. Maybe I need to take some accountability. So that's what I would say, Yeah, and that's one

Rachel Richards: 25:18

of the things I loved about your podcast, and I love about talking to you is because that you're very rounded. You've you actually are quite happy to own some of the problems that you know your own situation has caused, and how the culture that you come from, it's very it's just a really hard fit. It's really hard. And one of the things I love, one of your phrases I love, is the chat shit. Aunties, what's a chat shit? What is it? Tell us what a chat shit. Auntie is

Amma Browngirl: 25:43

a chat shit. Auntie or an uncle is an auntie who just loves to chat shit about everyone else and everything else, apart from herself, but will never take accountability for her own wrongdoings or his wrongdoings. So that is, attach it onto your uncle.

Rachel Richards: 26:04

Yeah, I think, I think we probably all have experienced those people. And I don't think it's just a jetty thing. I think we have, we have them around the globe, but I'm interested particularly in how they impacted your own upbringing, and because you have them and and I think some of the, some of because, some of this judgment and some of the blame, and the that your parents might have felt would have come from this community of aunties and uncles or whoever, who are also kind of imposing what they think should be done. I mean, would that be true? Or, how is that? How's that impacted your family and you, 100%

Amma Browngirl: 26:40

I just thought of an example right now, and I really want to share that. So I think I was maybe 13 or 14 at the time, and like WhatsApp display pictures were a thing at the time where, like us kids, would just always change them every day or whatever. So I must have uploaded a picture of me just I had some sunglasses on and some red lips, lipstick on. And I remember my mom's best friend at the time, she messaged my mom saying, Hi, I don't want to be rude, but your daughter looks like a prostitute, and I think she should change her DP, right. Wow, right. So you know, for you, obviously it provokes that kind of reaction, which is the the standard reaction, because it's sickening to have to hear that as a teenager, but I can now imagine the pressure it must have put on my mum to be like, Oh my God, I need to do something about this. And maybe not even maybe definitely, due to a lack of education, emotional intelligence and understanding. Her initial response would just be to shout at me, to have a go at me, to tell me that, oh, actually, you do look like a prostitute, and I'm, you know, as a 13 year old, you're gonna be like, wait, wait what? I'm just figuring myself out. I just wanted to wear some red lipstick, like, what's wrong with

Rachel Richards: 28:02

Yeah, and I can,

Amma Browngirl: 28:05

I can now look back and understand why it would have provoked that kind of reaction. But it's also an important example, because it shows that education is needed, and that is the impact a chat shit Auntie can have on parents generation as well as the children. And it's it's negative, for sure.

Rachel Richards: 28:27

How would you like would have liked your mother to have approached that or dealt with that situation?

Amma Browngirl: 28:33

I would have appreciated if she told her friend at the time to Sod off. What do you mean? She's a child,

Rachel Richards: 28:42

right? Yeah, yeah. And interestingly, when you left home, you said, automatically, everything became your fault, like when people step out of line, they're the ones who get blamed

Amma Browngirl: 28:54

100% when I left home, the reason why my mom was depressed was my fault, the reason why my dad was depressed was also my fault. The reason why my brother was going off track was my fault. Everything that went downhill was my fault because I left, even when I left and had the conversation with my family saying that, hey, I'm gonna move out on this date, I explained to them that I want to leave because I feel like I have no choice. I'm not leaving because I hate you. I'm not leaving because, you know, I don't I don't like my house, or I don't want to live here. I want to be here, but I can't. But they, they failed to understand that, and I think the only way they could, I guess, validate their feelings, was to blame it on me, and I think a lot of people, children, teenagers, young adults who do decide to leave their home in a busy or South Asian or just, you know, people, kind of gentlemen, people who decide to leave their toxic homes tend to get a lot of the blame. You.

Rachel Richards: 30:00

Yeah, and it's a very interesting thing, because I did an episode on charging your child rent, which was brought up by an American woman saying, you know, what should I do? And in some cultures, by the time you hit 18, you're expected to pay rent, and you stand on your own two feet. And in the Asian cultures, leaving home before you get married, from what I read and understood, is is considered to be an offense, like they want you at home until 100% Yeah, it's like, so that's how

Amma Browngirl: 30:28

dare, how dare she? How dare she not have a child and leave the home? And it just Yes, it kind of like shows this pressure that, you know how we was talking at the start is, you must get married, have a child by the age of this, at the age of 25 before you can leave, and then you can be in the care of your husband, so then he can take care of you. And it's like, well, yeah, where's my where's my autonomy to do anything, you know. And the shame culture pressure stronger from such and

Rachel Richards: 31:01

the shape and that, that shame then also ends up affecting your family, like they they blame the person you left, but also other people. Then it kind of throws a shadow on your family that you know you didn't manage to hold them together very hard. But

Amma Browngirl: 31:15

the weird thing is, like this, till this earth ends. Everyone will keep saying, Oh, but look at them, and look at this, and look at their family. But no one will ever take accountability to look in on themselves, to see Ashley, wait, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with my family? Families are difficult in themselves to start with, and that doesn't matter what culture you come from, but to have this added pressure of people or chat sheet aunties and uncles saying horrible things about, you know, my family or saying horrible things about other people, is just unnecessary. It's not needed. Hence why I'm so passionate about what I do, to just educate people that guys, we're all trying to figure it out. No one has the answer 100% what if we, and that's very chat, what if we just live happy and try figuring it out together, or

Rachel Richards: 32:10

accept, which is what our mantra on this podcast is, accept that everybody's doing the best they can with what they have, and rather than just judging them, we can just support them and they're trying to do better. Because when we assume, if people are trying to do better, of course they'll try and rise to it, we hope. And what about community? With your community, what you know, I mean, one of the great things about you is that you have a lot of gratitude, and you do journal gratitude and but you know, in terms of your community, what are the good things? Are there positive things about because a lot of parents are saying, I want a community. I'm missing a community. Where's my community? And I say, oh, you know, if you actually know people who've come from villages and moved they'll say, I didn't like it because it felt very oppressive and very you know, judgey, what are the positives do you think of of having a community like yours, I think

Amma Browngirl: 33:06

if it wasn't for my friends and community and the people that I love, I don't know where I'd be. I feel like I remember seeing this video on Tiktok of this dad, and he was at his son's wedding, and he was getting married to a man, so his son was gay, and this Indian dad was saying how, for a long time I thought there's something wrong with my son, and I don't know, like, I don't know where I went wrong. But then He educated himself, and he was like, right, if out of 100 family members, 50 of them stopped talking to me, that means I still have 50 people who still talk to me. Yeah, that's a bonus, right? Love that. Yeah. He thought, right? If these 50 people who don't want to talk to me anymore because my son is gay, I don't need them. So for me, it kind of made me realize you're allowed to pick and choose your community, surround yourself with people who love and care about you, who accept you. And through that, I've been able to heal a lot as well. It's not only just through gratitude and journaling that I've been able to move forward. It's through the friends I have who have supported me and loved me for who I am.

Rachel Richards: 34:19

Yeah, 100% and are you? You stepped away from your parents to kind of break the mold that you were in. To what extent do you just do you still care what your parents actually think

Amma Browngirl: 34:32

a lot? I think no matter how much healing I do, I've come to terms with the fact that when you are raised with so many expectations, it's very difficult to break that mold. It's very difficult to come to terms with the fact that your parents may never be proud of you. That's not true, though, because my parents are proud of me. I know that deep down, literally enough, but I know it they're obsessed with me. Hmm, they love me. They just can't seem to get rid of me, and they literally can't. But I think as a as a brown woman, it's very difficult to break the mold of wanting to fulfill the expectations of your parents, but it's my responsibility to make sure that I'm true to myself, that regardless of what their thoughts or opinions are, I must put myself first. And that's that's all you can do, really.

Rachel Richards: 35:29

Yes, I love that. I love your strength of character and your the how much you know. And that my last thing I want to ask you is, do you think that because you've just been to India, I've traveled around India too, so I sort of, but I've had a kind of outside view of it. If you had not been brought born and brought up in England, do what? To what extent would you do? You think you would have been the black sheep of the family and the person who did all of this? Or, do you think that's possible in that

Amma Browngirl: 35:59

is such a good question. I think about that quite often. I think, honestly, I would never know, because I've not lived life, no, but no. If I again, was the chosen one to be the black sheep, as you said, I think I still would push the limits of whatever I wanted to do to the maximum capacity, even if I was raised in India. Because people think what? Maybe the western side of the world thinks that India is very backwards. It's not. It's actually far more advanced. Yes, it ever has. I had a massive culture shock when I went back after, I want to say seven, eight years where I saw women, you know, working, wearing mini dresses, you know, out and about. And for me, even saying that out loud, it's like, well, yeah, that's the norm. That's how women should be, as they should be. But for me, it was still a culture shock, because going to India during my younger years, it was very much cover up. Can't go here, can't do this, can't wear this. So for me to be able to see the progression and how progressive people have actually become made me realize that, okay, even if I was the black sheep in India, if in another life, I think I would still be the AMA that I am today, I would still be a lesbian. There is an LGBT community in India. People are so much more open to learn, and this is including, like my family that live in the village, like they are genuinely interested in my life, and they are always, you know, asking questions and they're curious. So I think if I was a black sheep in India, I would still be the animal that I am today,

Rachel Richards: 37:44

which is wonderful to hear. And finally, just for any parents who are listening, who I know, I've got a lot of parents who are living outside of their original culture, who will be struggling with some of these things. What would be your advice?

Amma Browngirl: 37:57

Sure, I wrote an answer to this, because I really had to think about it. So I want to read it out. Please do I write for neat advice to parents, I would say number one, to actually talk to your children, not just mundane conversations as to how the weather, how are you? No, have genuine, deep conversations with your children, find out how they're truly feeling, if something's going on that you're not aware about. So I would say number one, communication. Number two, I want to remind parents that you should be your child's best friend. Your kids are not meant to fear you. You might be a parent, but you're also a human being that has experienced life who has had ups and downs, and children are incredibly intelligent, intelligent, and they can pick up on that. So the more open you are, the easier it is for your child to feel safe around you and understand that you are as human as they are. Having spent so many years fearing my parents, I didn't have anyone to go to, and I got mixed in with the wrong crowd. I was groomed from ages 16 to 21 I left home. I had to grow up quickly, but if my parents were educated or had a better understanding of me or made me feel safe in their environment, maybe things would have been a lot more different, despite saying that I wouldn't change my experiences, because I've ended up ending a lot of generational trauma, so I'm proud of where I am today. So that is my message to parents, you should

Rachel Richards: 39:29

be proud. That's amazing. What amazing message actually made me feel a bit tearful, beautiful message. Thank you so much for joining us, and I will put the link to your podcast in the show notes, because I'm sure there'll be parents who want to check it out. Are there other ways that people can find you?

Amma Browngirl: 39:52

Um, my Instagram, Tiktok. I'm on all social media. If you if you go into my Instagram, in the bio, there's. Um, links to all my, all my channels and social media channels. I'm on YouTube. I have a podcast. Um, it's video, audio, all the above. So check it out. Have a browse through, learn something. Maybe you can relate. Drop me a DM if you guys want to know anything more. So yeah, I really appreciate it. Rachel, like I Yeah. I just want to add as well. Rachel was one of the most loveliest people I've met when I was at the show last year. She just the energy that she had, like I was just like, oh my god, a mom is talking to me, and she is so cool, and she wants me to be on her podcast. Yes, I love that. And I'm so proud of what you do as well, and I thank you for putting out the content that you do, because it's so Imper it's so important for parents to know that we actually us kids. We actually want a good relationship with our parents, and we love them definitely. So

Rachel Richards: 40:53

thank you and it never stops. You never stop needing and wanting your parents love and approval never stops. That was Emma brown girl. You can find her on all social media, and there's a link in the podcast, notes to her podcast. It's funny. I used to tell my kids, I'm not your friend, I'm your parent, but as they grew into teenagers, I realized that it's more subtle than that. My job is definitely to set clear boundaries for them in which they can safely learn about the world, but I've also got to be prepared to discuss why those boundaries are there and the way that they're being enforced, and at times when they've had friendship difficulties, I have definitely stepped in to play the role of friend. Now my daughter's 18, I can honestly say that the relationship feels like a friendship, and there's still a very strong undercurrent apparent, which will always be there. I'm still putting time limits on her phone, which she agrees with, and still being consistently available to support and cheer her on in a way that's far more stable than a friendship. If you found this episode useful, then please share it now with at least one other person. Give it five stars if you feel like it, or even write a review. I love hearing your suggestions and feedback, so please ping an email anytime at teenagersuntangled@gmail.com, A big hug from me. Have a great week. You.