134: Are we too cynical? Helping our kids see hope in a world of cynicism.

Twenty years ago The Times asked young people in Britain a series of questions. The new Millenials gave answers which showed that the majority thought the UK was forward-looking and tolerant; they were proud to be British.

This year that same survey - this time asking Gen Z - has brought in radically different results.

48 per cent thought that Britain is a racist country, compared with 36 per cent who did not, and only 11 per cent said they would fight for Britain. In fact, 41 per cent said there were no circumstances in which they would take up arms for their country

This caught my eye, because I've been reading about the sharp rise in cynicism across many societies. What's particularly fascinating is that the opinions of people, when asked in research aimed at trying to understand cynicism, seem to be far less extreme and more peaceful, than we generally believe them to be.

So the question is, are we too cynical, and what can we parents do to help our kids feel more hope about the intentions of others and the world in general?

It's a very tricky subject, with lots of opportunities to offend, so do try to listen to the episode with the spirit in which it is intended. 

The Times poll: 

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/generation-z-survey-young-people-britain-ld076s8qr

Books referenced:

Hope for Cynics by Dr Jamil Zaki

Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity--And Why This Harms Everybody by Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay

Useful episodes for blended families with a newborn:

https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/1-your-parenting-toolbox-and-tidy-teen-rooms-rummaging-in-your-toolbox-and-how-you-get-your-teena/

https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/differing-parenting-styles-and-future-careers-parenting-together-when-you-cant-agree-on-a-parenti/

https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/manners-parenting-to-help-teens-succeed-in-life-by-teaching-the-importance-of-good-manners/

https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/29-step-children-coping-and-thriving-with-a-blended-family/

https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/123-avoid-parenting-burnout-and-troublesome-chore-charts-with-this-simple-method-an-interview-with/

Transcript

Rachel Richards: 0:03

Susie, hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled, the audio hub for parents going through the teenage years where no question is a bad question. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters.

Susie Asli: 0:15

Hi there. I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician and mother of three teenagers. Two of them are twins. We've

Rachel Richards: 0:22

just spent quite a few minutes fielding calls about getting tickets to concerts and things. Yeah, welcome to my world. Yes, parents of a teenager. Okay, so I messaged Susie and also to come in and chat today, because I saw the results of a poll published in The Times, and I don't know what the word for it is, but they disturbed me, and the headline said, Gen Z think the UK is racist and they would not fight for their country. Just a headline. Obviously, if you start digging down, you'll get more information about it. But I just thought, gosh, that's really interesting. And it's based on a poll that was carried out by YouGov and public first, and it's claimed to reveal a deep erosion of faith in Britain. 50% believed that the UK is stuck in the past. 41% said there were no circumstances at all in which they would take up arms for their country. And the reason it's interesting is because they did this study 20 years ago, and then in 2004 80% of young people said they were proud to be British, right? So it's a big shift. It's a massive shift, whilst almost 60% said the country was united, compared to 15% now. So that's a big shift, huge. And I have, and truly, I have noticed shift since my older bonus daughters left school, so I thought, let's talk about it. And if you've just joined the podcast, I always want to talk about issues like this, because we don't parent in a vacuum, and things like this are important because our job is to understand and help our kids navigate the world, and they kind of teach us too. So it's a sort of long process of learning, isn't it? And you know, obviously, inevitably, each generation is going to see things in a fresh light, and they're going to we need to use tools that we know to help them. I was obsessed with nuclear war when I was a teenager, and I remember, and I just kept going on about how nuclear weapons were really scary and and my father kept saying, Yeah, but look at the peace. And I don't, you know, he went through the war, and he said, I wouldn't want to do that again, and we have peace. And so each generation is going to view things through their own lens

Susie Asli: 2:23

Absolutely. And it changes each generation. Yeah, exactly. And so in

Rachel Richards: 2:27

this episode, we're going to talk about the concept of Western liberalism, and I would argue it's under deep attack.

Susie Asli: 2:35

She's gone all intellectual. I have

Rachel Richards: 2:36

no it's not that intellectual. But I just, I've been doing this stuff for a while. And actually, the thing I've been circling is cynicism and how we can support our kids in taking up a positive place in society. And I just that I came across a quiz, a pop quiz, a while back, saying, Are we too cynical? Are you cynical? That was it. And it just made me think, Gosh, isn't that interesting? So are we cynical? And it was, it was, it came off the back of a book that had been published called hope for cynics, and it's about a shift in cynicism in society. So we'll come to that before that, we're going to discuss our nuggets. And it's something I introduced about two or three years ago, and it's little anecdote from our lives in which we learn to apply something that might help you. Listeners, do you have one for us?

Susie Asli: 3:19

Susie, I do. I thought I'd be a bit well, I'm always honest, I think. But this is an honest one. I think we in the last episode, or the previous one. I can't remember exactly. We talked about stages of parenting, and we talked about how I actually think this stage in parenting is really challenging one, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that, and I've just been reflecting upon it, and I just, I think I've been feeling recently like the weight of it, and I think it's particularly there are some things going on for my kids, and it just keeps coming back to me that, you know, I'm still doing this On my own, I have a partner who's super supportive, but is not a parent, and there are various things with with my kids dad that makes it quite challenging to sort stuff out. And it's, yeah, you know, it's the classic little kids little problems and big kids, big problems, and it's really exhausting doing it on your own. So maybe it's just a kind of solidarity to anyone else out there who's doing it on their own, because it's really heavy, some of it, and it's really, some of it can be quite relentless, and it's also beautiful, and it's also wonderful. There are amazing people, there's banter, there's fun, and there's, you know, they're human, they're sort of sorry, they're adults. And it's really interesting, but it's, there's a weight, and I've just been feeling that lately. And what I've been doing particularly is kind of going back to basics of, you know, the classic, what can you change? Can I change this situation? No, okay, then, then I'm going to do my best. Very best to let it go. It's sometimes hard. Can I change it? Okay, then I'll make the changes that I'm able to do, but if I can't, then let it go. And I think I particularly get, you know, caught up in trying to, trying to hold everything, because it is just me. And I have twins as well. They're also two humans. You know, I think sometimes they get packaged together. It's like one and a half, they're not, yeah, and it's not like it's too much, or it's awful, or we're struggling at all, but it's, it's, I think sometimes it's really helpful to just stop and recognize, actually it's a lot so little wave of solidarity for anyone else out there who's doing that I can

Rachel Richards: 5:38

see that's really, really hard, and actually it leads my nugget isn't about me today. It's actually, I want to mention a lovely mum who has two bonus kids that are nine and 11 and a newborn baby, and she's finding it really challenging because the father is being quite lenient with the teens in her eyes. And you know, their manners and politeness and tidying up after themselves, and it's causing stress and friction. And I just want to say that was me. I mean, I have been, I've had that newborn, I've had the kids and the and, and I get it, she's going to be feeling very, very vulnerable at the moment, and probably looking for support from her partner and sees the kids behavior and www. And, you know, she's noticing the lack of support they're giving. And you know, the partner is probably worrying about his relationship with his older kids and scared about all the challenges to calm. He's probably feeling anxious about the change in his own relationship with his special woman, because there's a sense of, oh, wait, wait, it's not about me anymore, right? There's a lot of things going for and those kids will quite possibly be very, very anxious about their role in this new setting. Yes, absolutely. So does daddy still love us? Yeah. How is this going to work? So they're going to be anxious too. And I sent her suggestions for a few great episodes that can help us. I'm going to put them in the podcast note, just so that if anybody feels like, Oh yeah, that sounds a bit like where I'm at. You can actually have a look at them. But what I wanted to stay say, and, you know, and our role as step parents and the importance of teaching manners, which are different to etiquette. So manners is about just reading the room and being able to understand other people's needs. But what I really want to say is that, you know, when we blend families, or when you have separated families, you know the way you have and then a new baby arrives, there is so much change going on. Yeah, these transitions are hard anyway, but those teen those kids, are just hedging team as well, and everybody's got too much. So personally in that situation, if I was talking to myself back then, I would say, just try and shrink your world to the essentials and focus on bonding and connection and acknowledging the stress that you're all going to be feeling. Yeah. Just just be, just be chill about like, Just be honest that this is hard and it's okay, that it's hard and it's not that you're broken and there's anything wrong with any of them, yeah, and, you know, and it will sort itself out.

Susie Asli: 8:02

Lots of layers in that world, challenging. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Richards: 8:06

Do you have a review? I do.

Susie Asli: 8:09

It says, Love the podcast. I'm a GP in Australia, and have been listening to your podcast for a few months now. I'm finding it so helpful and enjoyable to listen to I have two tween, two, sorry, two teens and one tween as part of my work, I speak to lots of parents, and I see many tween teens, and have recommended your podcast several times. I've also shared it on medical Facebook groups that I belong to. Thanks for creating such fabulous content. Oh, that's a beautiful review.

Rachel Richards: 8:34

Isn't that amazing that actually Louise Evans, Louise, the website that came through a while ago, and I hadn't had the chance for us to read it because I keep having problems with my printer, but that's that's wonderful, because actually spreading the word makes such a difference, because it makes me feel better. And also I think, you know, I don't have a marketing budget, so actually when people share it around, it just makes such a difference. So thank you for that. And Georgie Owen is a school house mistress, and she posted on LinkedIn, saying that there are so many piles of wisdom in the podcast, and it's an essential listen for anyone living and working with teenagers. So thank you. Thank you Georgie, once again LinkedIn, thank you, because other people will see that it's very helpful. So if you have got a minute, just spread the word. Thank you. Right back to the main discussion topic of the day. Brace yourself. So 20 years ago, when this poll was originally conducted, the majority thought the country was forward looking intolerant, which is about 2004 2005 The survey also found that Gen Z has little faith in the institution, so we largely accepted and respected sort of like the police. And I can see, I can see why they would feel this way. And now, why did this particularly leap out at me? Well, I would never argue that the UK isn't racist or that we don't have problems with our policing system or our democracy. I mean, I can see that there are lots and lots and lots of issues. And so I can see how, if you're a. Teenager coming up, and you are on social media, you're looking at the news, and you're seeing the problems that get talked about a lot, because actually, that's part of being in a democracy, that the newspapers and everything are talking about these things and social media and social media and Tiktok, yes, and it gives a voice to minorities as well, which is a good thing. Yeah. So whenever my kids say this is racist, or this is whatever, I always start with compared with what and here's the weird thing, recent data from LinkedIn has shown that UK organizations employ twice as many D and I professionals, so D and I being diversity and inclusion in the UK per 10,000 employees than any other country in the world, and we have the second largest number of D and I professionals globally behind the US. That's interesting. So I look at that, and I was aware of that statistic, and then I look at this, and I think, what's going on? So is the shift? Yeah. So my question is, are we so racist and phobic that we need vastly more people in our organizations than anywhere else to sort out the problem? You can argue that I don't know. Have we become way more racist as the number of immigrants have risen quite dramatically? Could it be that our liberal democratic ideals and dislike of racism means we feel the need to focus on it more maybe, than other countries? You know, you could look at it in different you could say, well, the what's behind this? Or is there something else going on? And so I'll come to that in a minute. And then I researched which countries are the most racist. Now, I'm not pretending this is the best research ever. I just put it in. And the world Justice Project stated in 2023 70% of countries have seen discrimination worsen between 21 and 22 which is terrible, right? Of the 140 jurisdictions, the top performers are Finland, Estonia and Singapore. I'm not surprised about Singapore. They're very actively careful about how they integrate the worst discrimination in places like Afghanistan, obviously. But of the high income countries, the two where discrimination was most prevalent, United States, which comes in at 100 and third out of 140 countries overall. And in comparison, the UK's global rank is 19. Okay, radically different. Yeah. And I think one of the problems is that we get, we get confused with America. So a lot of the polemic from America comes over to the UK because we speak English as well, and we and but we're not America, no. And

Susie Asli: 12:26

I think sometimes teens watch stuff and think it's the UK and not making them sound stupid, but they're social media, like the the fear of the police over there, yeah, kind of spread away.

Rachel Richards: 12:37

I think so. And then there's a study better than that, but no, no, exactly. And we are, whenever you talk about these things, you have to reduce them somewhat. But then there's a study by King's College London in 2023 in which they asked nationals from 24 countries who they would not want to have living next to them. Oh, wow, which I think is actually really interesting. And they said, their parents. No, no. This has to do with immigrants and foreign workers, but probably yes, parents and lawyers, it showed UK having some of the highest levels of neighborhood trust internationally. Interesting. All right, so, so this is the backdrop, and I'm not, again, I'm not insisting that we're in any way, not any of the ISTS or the

Susie Asli: 13:18

nobias, but it's not as bad as we're projecting. So

Rachel Richards: 13:21

having spent a bit of time living in other countries and seeing what's on offer in other political system, frankly, I would argue that liberal democracy is the only type of system, system I want to live in, and I would fight for it. That's my I'm putting out my stall now so that people know where I'm coming Do you

Susie Asli: 13:37

have a definition of liberal democracy? Just come on to that? Yeah. Okay, yeah. And

Rachel Richards: 13:41

I don't want to stress on the democracy, because, again, there are all sorts of fights you can have over whether the way that our democratic system is set up is democratic. But you know, the liberal is the liberalism, right? And you know, for a long time, been trying to make an episode about cynicism. I'm going to refer to two key books. One is written by Dr Jamil Zaki, professor of psychology at Stanford University, and he uses data to study cynicism and how people can empathize more effectively. His book is called hope for cynics, the surprising science of human goodness. And I was drawn to that because I am, I want to be positive. I'm always kind of a bit tiggerish about life, and I want, I want things to be better. He says there's been an increase in cynicism. And he posits that what this is, is a loss of faith in humanity, and it's a huge trend around the world. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 14:29

it's gonna say cynicism and hope are like, if you, if you have hope, then you, you're less cynical. There's a lack of hope I would have just from

Rachel Richards: 14:38

the top of your head, yeah? And what is a cynic? It's actually it's a lens through which we view the world and a blanket assumption about people. So I hadn't really pulled this apart before I started reading about it. Interestingly, 70% of people in surveys believe that cynics are more intelligent than non cynics, and 85 5% of people believe cynics will be better at spotting liars than non cynics. So we have quite a strong bias towards thinking that people who are cynics are actually somehow so

Susie Asli: 15:10

weird, isn't isn't that interesting? So weird? Because, yeah, because that doesn't also make sense, like to be a cynic is, is a safer option, isn't it? It's like, it's easier to belittle everything and easier, easier to dumb everything down. It's much braver to go, No, I have hope. I think this is going to be a good thing. Yes, I love that. Hide behind the cynicism.

Rachel Richards: 15:31

Absolutely, absolutely right? And actually, the opposite is true. Cynics, in their research, do less well in cognitive tests than non cynics. We're not surprised. They have a harder time spotting liars than non cynics, and they have more in common with people who are naive. Yeah, both blindly trust their worldview. Yeah, it's black and white thinking, yes. So the night people who are naive just blindly trust people. People who are cynics go into a situation believing that people everyone's an idiot, so neither of them are responding to data, no. And the opposite of both cynicism and naivety is skepticism, okay, healthy skepticism? Yes. So he explains that a cynic is a bit like being a lawyer and trying to prove your case. You go into a situation you know what you think, and you're just trying to prove it. And a skeptic is more like a scientist. You get new data, you adjust your thinking. We've talked about this before. I think we're both more skeptical. Cynics are more likely to suffer from heart disease, diabetes, anti young, so it's actually not even healthy for us, right? And he says they have trouble accessing the psychological calories that nourish people's well being. Oh, so I'm just, I think I thought was a lovely phrase. I'm just setting out the store for saying this. Saying this isn't a way we want to be. This isn't a particularly healthy way of viewing the world. And you know, there has been this significant rise in it, and one of the biggest issues is identity differences. And Dr Zaki says, if you go on social media or look at the news, you'll get a very strong picture of what the average person you disagree with is like. So if you're a Republican and you see posts by Democrats, they're highly likely to be the extreme end of that, because the majority of people don't actually post about their what they really think on a day to day bit, or when they do, they're talking about their kids or their dogs or their whatever, or their best life, and they seem extreme, anti democratic, even violent. And those people do exist, but the average doesn't look like that. We tend to imagine someone who is 80% more extreme than the average person on the other side? Can you believe that?

Susie Asli: 17:42

Yeah, I actually can, yeah. Because the way that the politics is set out in the countries where there's only two parties that you just get the two extreme opinions, two

Rachel Richards: 17:51

extreme opinions, and they will believe the average person hates them twice as much as they really do, and they'll think they're twice as anti democratic and four times as violent. Wow. Blimey, isn't that interesting? Yeah, that is really interesting. What are we doing here? Yeah. So, so right from the get go, I think we need to be having these conversations with our kids about about the bias that we experience when we go online and we see in he says, If you were to just put everything in your day online, literally, just post everything, you would see how benign and kind people are, but we don't know.

Susie Asli: 18:24

And it says it's a kind of a the argument for critical thinking, isn't it like teaching critical thinking, like the idea that somebody comes and says something slightly outrageous, maybe at home and because they've learned it in school, instead of dumbing them down and telling them they're wrong or stupid? Oh, you know, open it up. Yeah, what are you talking about? Where did you find that from? Are there other ways of looking at it so that, and I'm not sure that there's always time or energy to do that in other spaces. No,

Rachel Richards: 18:52

I There isn't in school. I mean, I've spoken to a lot of school teachers who said they're, they're ramrod and kids through school because they've got so much material to go through, and there's not enough time to really engage in critical thinking. So this is something we parents really can be doing to help our kids. And when we confuse extremists with the majority, we give the extremists way more power than they deserve. Yeah, and you know, there's a silent super majority who want peace and compromise Absolutely. So that's a lovely message, yeah, just

Susie Asli: 19:20

from a brain perspective. I mean, we have this negative bias that we've talked about many times. Cynicism appeals to that, doesn't it? Yeah, easier, absolutely.

Rachel Richards: 19:28

And he says, the time when we're least cynical is when we focus on the people in our local environment, yeah. And I think we've been talking about this a lot, you know, when I go out and I chat to people on my dog walks, I think, Oh, they're all so lovely, yeah?

Susie Asli: 19:38

And then you go

Rachel Richards: 19:39

online and they

Susie Asli: 19:40

horrible, yeah, and even, like, even the most racist people who, you know, obviously, I very much disagree with what they think and believe, even they often are like, Oh, I don't mean my neighbor, you know, it's all the others. So I don't mean the lady who works in my shop down the road. No, she's lovely. I mean all the others. So whenever, when there's a face to. People and it's near like your locality, yeah, and it looks very different. And

Rachel Richards: 20:03

so of course, the disconnection that we're experiencing when we're not spending enough time in our community then enhances worldview. And so coming back to the Times poll, one of the quotes of the kids said Britain was built on racism, and whilst it might not be blatant, it's systematic racism and deeply entrenched unconscious bias. That's one of the quotes, yeah, Kemi Badenoch, who is the leader of the Conservatives and black, says it's absolutely not the case. But this is what happens when we let false narratives take root. That's

Susie Asli: 20:31

interesting and controversial,

Rachel Richards: 20:34

very controversial. The UK is, is a liberal society. It's built on liberal values, right? You agree? Yeah, yeah. Liberalism is difficult to define, because it's best understood as a marketplace of ideas. You know, secularist in nature, and there's a desire to gradually make society fairer, Freer and less cruel, one practical goal after another. That's the kind of underlying principles that have come through from various thinkers over centuries. I think it's a system of conflict resolution, so it's not a solution to human conflicts. So in a liberal society, as John strip mill says, censorship harms so I'm just giving this sort of laying out the store for liberalism, because I'm a believer in liberalism. Very happy for you to disagree. And I'm sure people might want to write in and say, No, this is rubbish, I don't know, but when you look at liberal societies, they're the freest, least oppressive societies the world has ever known. They're not perfect. Ever, no, ever. We can't be perfect, but they are better. I think most of us believe in social justice if we're liberals. So we believe that all people deserve a good chance in life, irrelevant of your backgrounds, your skin color, all of those things, yeah,

Susie Asli: 21:42

yeah, as a as a theoretical ideal, yeah, yeah, as a theoretical idea.

Rachel Richards: 21:46

So we want a society that reaches towards that. And I was looking at cynicism, and I thought, well, what are some? What other books are out there? And I found this book, cynical theories, how activist scholarship made everything about race, gender and identity and why this is harmful. This harms everybody. So I read that book cover to cover, and I thought it was within one of the most eye opening books. And for me as a parent, trying to navigate a very rapidly changing landscape, political landscape, it was one of the most helpful things I've read. So I'll put that in the notes. It's hard work, though, because there's a lot of critical theory in it. The theories that underlie the critical theory are all to do with how the structures that we have at the moment are no good, and they need to be attacked and undermined. And it's almost post science like this. You know, the problem with science is it was all built by white men, so therefore we need to pull it apart, because it's not good and and I don't have a problem with attacking science that is there with better science, but I do have a problem with saying, well, we just ignore it and rubbish it because it was done by a white Yeah,

Susie Asli: 22:53

that would be the bad way of doing it, wouldn't it? I mean, I'm sure there's many who are doing it in a good way and unpacking it with constructive criticism, but when it becomes black and white thinking, then it's really actually destructive. Yeah, and when

Rachel Richards: 23:04

we decide that society needs to be deconstructed, what we're really arguing is that we have to constantly identify, condemn and deconstruct like all the time. You have to be aware and careful about all the microaggressions or the things that could be happening. And can you see why this would be considered cynicism? But lived

Susie Asli: 23:21

experience looks very different from from that. And of course, they overlap and they filter into each other. Of course they do, because that's the nature of life. But the lived experience, I think, which the teenagers experience, and I can only speak for the ones I know and the ones I see looks really different, and that's what they take and that's what they react to. And I know for myself that, I mean, we're all we're all white, so we have, you know, so much unconscious bias that we will never realize how much probably and some of it my one of my kids, who's at uni. Most of his friends, they come from all sorts all over the world, and he just seems to find that interesting. His social group is very, very diverse, and a lot of them do in their daily life, meet troubling things, and that, then, of course, affects him. And I would put him in a cynical category, and I don't like it. I think it's worrying. I think it's really troubling. But when some of his friends, you know, they get stop and search at a stupid amount, you know, which is, is, is, you know, clearly unfair, yeah, absolutely, they get totally affected by that. So then he gets a, you know, that becomes black and white, or the police are all, you know, racist. They're all really biased, blah, blah, blah, blah, and that's so unhelpful and so troubling. So I think the theories, of course, we need all those theories, and they absolutely we need them. But how do we get to the lived experience? Is my kind of the icky point? Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 25:00

Yeah, well, they, I mean, we all only have our lived experiences, so I'm not experiencing that because a I'm not living in London and meeting these police all the time. So absolutely, and people will see things through their own lens and then, but then the theory is actually quite now embedded in our education system and in workplaces. So that's the DNI things actually work on these theories. Yeah, they develop and they implement the theories. And

Susie Asli: 25:25

it's made to be to try and readdress the balance, isn't it? So we want to readdress the balance. It's wrong. It's wrong to be to have this system. So we want to readdress it. But there, as you've said, there has to be critical discussion around it. It can't we go the other way. Absolutely,

Rachel Richards: 25:42

the critical race theory claims that a decline in racism has been a mirage, and assumes racism is everywhere and it's kind of creating divisiveness and pessimism, because if you're constantly looking out for these things, you're going to see them. You know, in the same way that as a parent, if you constantly think your teenagers going to be awful, you know, rude and difficult, then they're probably going to be like that this because, you know, people reflect back to you what you're pushing. My point is not denial of any of these things, but the underpinning liberalism would argue that we should be able to have conversations and not be told you're not allowed to say

Susie Asli: 26:16

things 100% it's the it's the stifling, isn't it? As you say, it's the stifling of the of the debate, that is the problem. And maybe that's really difficult to come into, because if there has been a lot of you know, we've got the starting point is imbalance, then maybe people have to shout really loudly to start with to get any attention, and then it settles, maybe. And then there's a proper debate, I don't know, but

Rachel Richards: 26:38

so. But coming back to the data that I was finding. Again, I don't know if that data holds up. Maybe there's other data that disproves it, but if you look at, for example, the DNI people working in the UK, that's a that's a vast number of people who genuinely seem to care about this. So what's going on? I mean, is it that we just not very good at this? Yeah, but do you see what I'm saying? Because I just think it doesn't. But there's an awful lot of talk about this stuff, but at the same time, we seem to be doing an awful lot to try and

Susie Asli: 27:05

it's very negative, isn't it? It's very point. But there was one, there was one aspect in the article of the which has been picked up a lot in the media, is that, you know, teenagers wouldn't fight for their country. And I think, I think that's different. I mean, I always kind of look at things and think, Well, what else is at play? Like, what else is at play there? Like, people think differently about fighting at all, like, maybe they have, maybe this generation has a completely different attitude to war. You know, it's been a very long time since any of us has seen anything like that. I don't know, but there's other things at play. There's socio economic things in every aspect of any debate. Aren't there that we kind of it's all overlaps into everything. Like talking to my kids about the war thing, they were like, I don't know. I asked them, and they didn't really know, and we only had about two minutes anyway. But it's not just about being I'm not. You know, if I say I don't want to fight for my country, that doesn't mean I'm not I don't like Britain. And you know, the whole the whole debate about nationalism has shifted so much. What does it even mean? Yeah, and for teenagers, you know, they maybe they feel that they're citizens of the globe, and that to them, fighting for their country makes less sense. I don't know. I'm just stabbing in the dark, but it's not just about being British, I don't think so. We have to really open up the debate and again, not stifle it, not

Rachel Richards: 28:25

stifle it, and have those discussions. And I just think when you look at that, I suppose I look at things like what's happened in Ukraine, and those people have had to get up and fight. They didn't want that fight, they didn't want that fight, but they had to, otherwise they would be subsumed by a different power. Yeah? Now in Britain, we have the luxury of being, you know, a water apart from most other countries. But that doesn't mean to say we wouldn't actually end up having no but it's

Susie Asli: 28:52

very different to ask somebody, okay, there's somebody banging on your door and they're going to shoot you. Are you prepared to fight? Yeah, of course, yes. I'm going to sign survival now. Or would you, hypothetically, maybe fight for your country one day? I don't know, maybe not. Maybe I want to go shopping instead. It's not real. Yeah, no, it's not real though. Yes, you're

Rachel Richards: 29:09

right, and the way you ask the questions and everything will have a massive impact on how they mean they hate England,

Susie Asli: 29:15

necessarily, it might, but it might not. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 29:19

yeah. And I coming back to the quote. So the earlier quotes, there was a girl who said, Britain is built on racism, and whilst it might not be blatant, it's systemic, systematic racism and deeply entrenched unconscious bias. And I just, again, I'm not saying that that's not true, but I wonder to which, the extent to which this is the consistent narrative that's coming out and makes people feel like we're way more racist than we are. Do you see

Susie Asli: 29:48

totally and maybe it's not so much the questions that are being asked or this or the sentences that are being said. It's, it's you know, how do we talk about these things? How do we approach it? What's you know, what's being asked? Act rather than, are we? Aren't we? You know, that's not very helpful. Is it? Is that a helpful way to look at it? Not really, yeah, it's, it's we need to make it way more nuanced, yeah, and bring lived experience into it so it's relatable,

Rachel Richards: 30:14

yes? Yeah. I just feel a bit of a bristling in this country and across the West, yeah, that there's an element of Destiny stabilization that we really need to pay attention to. And I think, yes, and I'm not saying we need to say to our kids, simmer down. You know, it's all great, because that's not no what we're trying to say. But the question is, are we telling our kids enough about how good Yeah, our society is, yeah? Like, what are the good things about it, rather than only on all the awful things that seem to be going on? Because the truth is, if you keep is, if you keep saying, Oh, look at that awful thing that's happening, then they'll do that, and

Susie Asli: 30:47

then we fall down into that rabbit hole of cynicism, because it's easier, it's safer, and it's lazier, it's lazier. I love that. I love that. That the idea of, you know, what can we bring? It's like challenging the negative biases. What can what can we bring that's good. And they might go pack scoff That's rubbish, but they'll hear it, and it readdresses That negative balance a little bit. And it's really important. Yeah, I love that. So I suppose that

Rachel Richards: 31:07

was what I was trying to get up through this whole thing. I'm looking at it going the cynicism, and when I look at what they're saying, and the big swing in perception over two decades, which doesn't seem to be included in the figures, yeah, says to me, there's something going on there. More than Yeah, the underlying wouldn't it

Susie Asli: 31:29

be amazing if instead of us going, oh look, they're really cynical. This generation, they don't want to fight for their country, the above all those things, instead go, Oh, wow. Let's be curious about that. They're cynical. There's something going on. It's across the board. What's going on. Let's have a discussion about it. What are you cynical about? What's going on for you? What? Why does this affect you as an individual or as a group in this particular way? And and how can we, how can we challenge that? But you have to do that. You have to really unpack it first, and that can be really uncomfortable for people to hear what they have to say. But instead of making them wrong, because that's really what they're doing, isn't it going, Oh, this generation thinks all of this that's wrong. Either there's something wrong with them or the debate is wrong or then again, we're in black and white territory. No, it's across the board. It's obviously there, whether we agree with it or not, what's going on discuss it,

Rachel Richards: 32:21

yeah, and not allowing for saying you can't say those words, you can't say this, you can't say that. I mean, obviously there are certain words that are off limits, but generally, I think one of the worries is that there's been a lot of language policing and control of spaces and things, and I think we need to have much more open conversations and not punish people for questioning things, no. And it's really important

Susie Asli: 32:45

within that debate and the unpacking of it, you know, what's the need behind it? Like, what's the need? Yeah, there's a need in there. Isn't there? Otherwise it doesn't exist, yeah, but we don't know what that is, because we just telling them they're wrong or or whatever we're doing in black and white.

Rachel Richards: 33:00

Dr Jamal Zaki said that what we need to be looking for is be radical moments of of kindness, yeah, and actually try to change our focus and notice the because our perception. The point is, our perception of how awful people are is actually wrong, yeah, yeah. And I think that underpinning all of this is this question of, to what extent are we getting the world right? We're perceiving things, but that's perception. And to what extent do we genuinely think? Do we do we know that that is how people see it. So crossing the divide being able to when you're at the dinner with somebody who voted in a very different way from you, rather than shutting them down and getting angry and thinking, imagining them being the extreme person that you had seen, try and find a bridge.

Susie Asli: 33:48

Yeah, understand them. And then that we talked about at the start, you know, the element of hope. That's like, that's the antidote to the cynicism, isn't it? Hope. But then maybe sort of elephant in the room, I keeps coming into my head, you know, I can't remember who was, but it's the economy, stupid. Yeah, that is, that is such a big deal for our teenagers. And I think maybe we don't even realize, because for them, that, you know, maybe they're coming out of university, or they're looking around and their their prospects are so different. And we've talked about this lots of times, and that is, I would guess, underpinning a lot of that, because there's less hope for them. So then it's much, you know, then the cynicism thrives.

Rachel Richards: 34:28

I completely agree. And I think that when you get a sense that there's less as a lack, then people become more desperate. And what's the point about yeah and the world's burning?

Susie Asli: 34:38

Yeah, that's really true. Such a

Rachel Richards: 34:41

cheer discussion anyway. No, my argument is for hope to point out to our kids. Yeah, people try and try and adjust that. Yeah, that that knob.

Susie Asli: 34:52

And I love that, because what we do at home does make a difference. We can feel it doesn't make any difference, but it's the ripple effect, isn't it? It's important. Yeah. And spread kindness, yeah, yeah. Or if, at the very least, you know, challenge, yeah, have a you know challenge it, yeah, sow seeds of doubt in any argument. Yeah, it's really healthy, right?

Rachel Richards: 35:12

Well, that's it. We've sorted the world out. I'm getting on holiday. I'm not. I wish I was, if you found that at all useful, enjoyable, interesting, thought provoking. You can write and complain, or you can write and send in your thoughts. Yeah, tell us the wrong I love that. I love that. That's the thing. We're quite open to. These things. I'm usually happy to to be taken down teenagers untangled@gmail.com there's also a little kind of button that you can press at the bottom of the top of the podcast notes, which is an instant I can't even see you, so you can just troll me.

Susie Asli: 35:48

Did you just invite someone to troll you? No, no, but

Rachel Richards: 35:51

you know you can do it. Do an instant message, I just can't respond to you. So that would be on the program. The websites, www, dot teenagers, untangled.com, we're all over social media. Susie, you have a beautiful sort of haven of mindfulness, kindness. And so how do people find that?

Susie Asli: 36:11

It's my website is the easiest place to find me with all the links in that. It's www. Dot amindfull, hyphen, life.co.uk,

Rachel Richards: 36:21

yes, and she does work in companies. She does one to one work. There's all sorts of stuff in your little tool. Find me there. Find her there. Okay, brilliant. Thank you so much for coming in too. So I really appreciate that. And I hope that makes sense. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 36:33

it's been good. It's a big topic, a new topic,

Rachel Richards: 36:35

and I'm not sure I grasped it that way.

Susie Asli: 36:37

To wake my brain up for that.

Rachel Richards: 36:39

What are she talking about? Oh, God, I tell you that critical theories, but yeah, there are moments where I just thought they've lost me completely. Don't understand they hear this, and that maybe that's the point, that maybe I'm just too stupid. No, absolutely

Susie Asli: 36:55

not. My one of my kids is doing philosophy a level. It's super interesting. And it's like, Oh, my God, everyone should be doing this for just for the basics, it teaches teaching into question, stuff like, oh, that's brilliant.

Rachel Richards: 37:09

Yes, I agree. Anyway, okay, that's it. Have a great week. Bye, bye. For now, bye, bye. You.