144: First love, breakups & LGBTQ. How to support your teen.

First love can be immensely powerful; a profound and unforgetable journey that shapes who we are. It teaches us about intimacy, boundaries and heartbreak and as parents it challenges all of our skills and perceptions.

In this episode my daughter, Phoebe, offered to talk about her first experience; what it taught her, how it changed her, and what she thinks adults need to understand to support their teen; particularly one who is same sex attracted. 

What I learned from our experience is that the most important thing is knowing your child is in a kind, honest, loving relationship. 

Phoebe reflects on the problems with the long-distance aspect of her relationship, the struggle to gain assertiveness, and the eventual breakup. The conversation also touches on the role of social media, the importance of closure, and the growth Phoebe experienced as a result of her experiences. 

TOP BREAK-UP TIPS:

• Provide time and space for your teenager to process the breakup without pressure.
• Avoid making judgmental comments about the ex-partner or trying to convince the teenager they are "better off".
• Support your teenager in finding healthy coping mechanisms, such as focusing on personal goals and interests.
• Encourage your teenager to set boundaries with the ex-partner, including unfollowing on social media, if needed for the healing process.
• Recognize that the healing process after a first love breakup can take significant time, often 6 months or more.

Chapters

• 0:00 First love and parental support
• 2:18 Navigating Non-Traditional Relationships
• 12:28 Identity and Self-Discovery
• 18:15 Impact on Academic and Personal Life
• 20:26 Breakup and Healing Process
• 31:12 Social Media and Moving On
• 49:02 Closure and Moving Forward
• 49:19 Reflections on the Relationship
• 50:14 Parental Perspective and Support

Transcript

Rachel Richards: 0:00

Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teen and tween years. I'm Rachel Richards, parenting coach, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now do you remember your first love, the excitement, the vulnerability, the way your whole world felt like it was expanding and collapsing at the same time, Phoebe is with me. You my daughter. We're going to talk about first love breakups, how a parent can support you. First love is powerful, and I think for teenagers, it's an emotional storm that shapes how you become, doesn't it? You come out of it a different person. It teaches us about intimacy, boundaries, heartbreak, and who we are when we love and lose them. Now in this episode, we'll talk honestly about your first experience of love, what it taught you have it changed you, and what you think adults need to understand. Yeah. Yeah, right. So first of all, I think what's really interesting about teenagers is, I remember researching how teenagers develop, and this one line where they said, between 10 and 20 is this time when your teenagers become a sexual being. And I thought, oh, no, I don't want it No, just No, because I think I read that when you were quite young, and I think we're not going to talk about sex, but I just think that it's quite a big thing for parents to have to do make that transition, and it's a massive thing for a young person, and It can happen at different ages. I remember you wait you turned to me when you were 16, and you said, Mommy, you know, I'm legal. Oh, no, that was just painful. And I went, Yeah, with a glint in your eye, and no boyfriend on the horizon, anyways. And, and what was really interesting is, when you were little, you would whenever we went into a room and there were sort of cute boys there, you would always flush your eyelashes. You were very flirtatious with them. And I'm putting this out there because you blindsided me, absolutely blindsided me, and and I'm saying this because what happened was Phoebe ended up with a girl, and I'm absolutely nonchalant about who people date, who they have sex with, who they marry, because it's just irrelevant to me, as long as it's a loving, supportive kind relationship. And Phoebe's Godfather is gay. He's been married. He's divorced now, but that was a very long marriage. He's very he's a very sort of straight person, but he happens to be gay, and I've got so many gay friends, and I also had lesbian friends when I was at university. So none of this is new to me. We know gay people. We know gay people. So I wanted to sort of preamble this, because I think some parents find this very, very they, in spite of the Zeitgeist we're in, they don't really feel comfortable with all of this. So and for kids, it's important that parents understand this, and

Phoebe Richards: 3:17

even if you are completely accepting a similar shock, it wasn't

Rachel Richards: 3:21

a shock. It wasn't a shock. I think what happened was Phoebe went away to a debate camp, and you just ended up calling me the person I can say, Oh, I've met this great girl. She's really fun. And it wasn't anything. Was just, you know that you because you would always let me know if you'd met somebody who we found inspiring, and you enjoy the company. And I was so happy. And then when you came back from the debate camp, I could tell that the way you were talking together, yeah. But could you tell 100% you could, yeah? I was kind of holy. That's great. You know, tell me more. Tell me more. And, and then at some point I just said, you know that it's fine if you want to have a relationship. Did you need me to say that? Yeah, okay, that's interesting. Talk about that. Well,

Phoebe Richards: 4:10

I was really struggling to to kind of work out what I wanted, really, because I knew from from kind of the moment that I met her, that it wasn't, we weren't friends from the start. We weren't really like, it wasn't a friendship vibe, even though, like, we, you know, there was nothing that we were doing which is not like, you know, but, um, but I was really struggling with unpacking that, because it didn't really align with my self perception. So I went through a bit of it, an identity crisis, and and I was kind of going back and forth on though. I mean, there are so many things do I want to ruin this friendship? Do I even bring it up to her? You know, things like that. And then I really, really did need someone else, because I was dealing with all of us alone. I, I, you know, I. Wasn't out, you know, or anything like. My head, I didn't have anyone I could talk to. And then in my mind, I was also like, if this doesn't even go anywhere, is it worth me even kind of outing myself for but when you sat me down and said, You know, it's okay if that is where this is headed, it was definitely very relieving. That's very interesting.

Rachel Richards: 5:22

You use the word out, yeah, does that how it felt?

Phoebe Richards: 5:26

Well, well no, like I didn't. I didn't sort of come out, like it wasn't. It was more we just had a kind of discussion about my situation that okay, it didn't. I didn't need to make a massive announcement or anything like that, and and I didn't feel like I was exposed or like much had changed about myself. It was more just kind of like, oh, this is a part of me that I didn't realize was there before.

Rachel Richards: 5:52

This is what's so interesting about identity. Yeah, sometimes it blindsides. We were sort of tootling along thinking with this, and then something changes. And that's actually a very hard thing to do when you co when you're sort of settling into yourself up to a certain age, and I think you did struggle talking to your friends about it, yeah, thinking about talking to your friends about it, maybe

Phoebe Richards: 6:14

primarily because I didn't want them to see me in a different way, because I had never, I've never felt romantically to any of my friends, I know there's a massive distinction between sort of Platonic love and, you know, like romantic love. And I really didn't want them to think that, like I never, and I know they wouldn't like I know my mind, but I was just a bit scared that they would treat me differently, or they wouldn't feel comfortable with me in the room if they're changing, for example, or something like that, you know, stuff, you know, just small things, but they were amazing. They were so supportive. And absolutely nothing changed, which is really, you know, yeah, it was lovely. And

Rachel Richards: 6:53

did you feel like, I think we had a conversation about whether you wanted to put a label on it, didn't

Phoebe Richards: 6:59

we? Yeah, well, my problem was, is that we so we, we were long distance, so she lived really far away, so we were texting all the time, but it got to the point where it kind of needed to go somewhere, and she wanted to see me. She wanted me to go to, you know, to visit her. And that made me really stressed, because in my mind, I was like, I know that this is not a friendship. I know them. We've been kind of flirting back and forth, and I don't want to come and see you if I'm not confident that that's where I want things to go. It's almost like, yeah, no, absolutely. Because we'd actually been talking for a really long time by this point, I think been like a month or so. I didn't know there had been a while, and it felt like I needed to know where my head was at before I visited her. And that's kind of when I came to you, and I was like, I really need help. And and it was more basically communication to her, like, Where, where are we going? Like, what? What is this? And it wasn't like, I need a label on this, but sort of, can we acknowledge that this isn't a

Rachel Richards: 8:08

friendship? Yes, yes, yes. And I think she's in a different position, because I think she is very much

Phoebe Richards: 8:15

out Yes, to use that CO Yeah, it's very clear

Rachel Richards: 8:19

that she's not heterosexual, yeah, whereas with you up until that time because of the way you were when you were younger, not for any other reason, I just it didn't even occur to me that you might date a girl. Yeah, wasn't so, which is just surprised me. I mean, nothing more or less than that. But it was lovely, yeah, it was a very, very beautiful start to having a first love. Yeah, romantic. You used to write beautiful things to each Yeah, yeah.

Phoebe Richards: 8:56

It was lovely, nice. Yeah. I mean, I was absolutely headed for hills. And

Rachel Richards: 9:02

yeah, and I think as a parent, so, so for all the parents who might be listening, who are thinking, Oh, I can't imagine my target, I think what it what really landed for me was this idea that what all I really cared about, all I really cared about, was that you were loved and cherished and and felt safe, and that the person makes you feel better, not worse, because there's all these horrible stories about bad relationships, and I think that's what we we fear. As parents. We want our kids to have good relationships. So when you see your child in a good relationship, you just You're so happy,

Phoebe Richards: 9:36

yeah. And I remember, it really was. And I remember looking around, you know, other people my year and their relationships, and thinking, you just don't know. You don't know. Yeah, your millionaires, because I felt like we really, really had a connection that other people didn't seem to have. Yeah, we were kind of very, we were very emotionally sort of entwined. Yeah. And that had good and bad,

Rachel Richards: 10:02

yes, because you're both female, and so there were ups and downs, but, you know, there's lots of overthinking. So yeah,

Phoebe Richards: 10:09

yeah, you weren't regular,

Rachel Richards: 10:11

yeah, but that's normal. I mean, that's normal. I think most young relationships find that very difficult. Anyway, yeah, right, if you think about Yeah. And actually, what was interesting for you was you had seen other friends dating from much younger ages, so you had a picture of what other people's relationships looked like, and girls would tell you how it felt, and you could compare that to the one you were in. And you were very pleased that you were in a such a warm, loving romantic relationship, yeah, which was very nice. Were there any things that people did that didn't help,

Phoebe Richards: 10:45

help with what help with?

Rachel Richards: 10:47

And I'm talking just generally about a loving, you know, first loves and relationships are there? Are there tips for parents where you think that wasn't I mean, one thing I remember was a member of our family who, when we mentioned, oh, you know, she's dating this girl, she was, she just basically well, and then she didn't ask your question. And it's hilarious, because you knew, we all knew that if you had mentioned a boy that you were dating, she would have been you.

Phoebe Richards: 11:15

Yes, she's so excited, so funny. And yeah, it went completely overhead. But I mean, other than that, I think, you know, family wise people don't really, and you

Rachel Richards: 11:27

didn't, you didn't have any comments from people, no, you

Phoebe Richards: 11:32

know, obviously great. Soviet personally, yes, yes, which is, I think it's different for girls, yeah, oh, I really agree with that. Do you? Yeah, how so I think, I think it's because of the dynamic with fewer relationships and things like that. It's so much easier, you know, to be accepted as like, as a girl who's gay than them, you know, like, especially in my school, for example, I don't know, like with guys tend to be a lot more physical, not to generalize, but I think they are, and there's actually a real physical risk if you know, like, people don't lie to you for your personality, they'll set upon you. And I was like, you know, I mean, I've never experienced any kind of verbal homophobia or anything like that. But then there's no physical risk at all. Whereas guys are very like,

Rachel Richards: 12:28

yeah, yeah, yeah. And coming back to the relationship, were there any feelings that sort of surprised you, things that you didn't expect to to feel?

Phoebe Richards: 12:37

Um, well, I remember feeling there were times when I felt resentment. Why? Well, it was when, because, obviously, again, we were long distance, so we were constantly trying to, you know, we were trying to find times to communicate, like to talk to each other, and then if someone wasn't available to talk, then it would be frustrating. Or if someone had plans, many of you have because, because you have Yes, yeah, but Well, she's older than you, yeah, so she was, yeah, she's a different situation. And yeah, then it would be, it would be, it would be frustrating and that, but then also, I feel like a lot of the resentment that would build up was because I wasn't really voicing that things were upsetting me.

Rachel Richards: 13:30

And I think that one of the problems with young relationships is believing enough in yourself to be able to voice your own feelings and your own expectations and being assertive. And I think some teens are very assertive, but a lot of teens find being assertive in a romantic relationship very difficult.

Phoebe Richards: 13:52

Yeah, I would say that's one of the most important things I've learned from this is I need to feel comfortable telling you what I like and what I don't like. You know what? As in, like, something that's upsetting me, I need to be able to tell you, and if you don't like the fact that I don't like that, then we're not the right people for each other. Like, that's, you know, it's just something that's inherent to relationship.

Rachel Richards: 14:14

And I think that's harder when you're even younger. So if kids start dating, I was really glad that you weren't dating until you were seven. Oh, yeah. But if kids start dating when they're 14, or this is really difficult stuff to navigate, and those relationships are still really important to them, so those romantic relationships will will be really big at the time, won't they? Yeah, yeah. What were the things that you learned about yourself from being in a relationship, because I'm sure it must have massively changed your identity. Well, it didn't change your identity. You're still the same person. But what's really interesting is okay from from my perspective, and correct me if I'm wrong, what I saw was somebody who was developed. Very, very strongly or very wise and very mature for your age, and also quite academic, yeah, but you weren't going out to tons of parties. You didn't do the whole vaping, smoking, drinking stuff, and you did. You did look over the fence and think, Oh, I'd like to go to more parties. I'd like to whatever. But that wasn't really available to you, yeah, where you were partly geographically, as well as you know, in terms of the friendships that you had, whereas she was living in a town city, really, yeah, where there are nightclubs, and she grew up doing all of that stuff from a young age, really, a young age, yeah,

Phoebe Richards: 15:36

I think we, we definitely complemented each other, we balanced each other out, which is why it felt, at the time, it felt like we were really good for each other, because, you know, we just like she brought this element to my life that I hadn't really experienced that much before, and she died, and her character, like, I'm quite mellow, I'm Quite down to earth, and she's very charismatic. Labrador, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so she really brought that out to me. I loved that. I really loved that. And so, and I feel like that's often what we do in relationships. We're looking for people who give us the parts of us that we don't really have, or, like, you know that, or they help build us up and bring out that that part of us. So, yeah. So yeah. So in that respect, she definitely, definitely helped my, my co my confidence and my like, you know, my sort of social side and but, yeah, but I did find that we, I think it was just the nature of our relationship. We kind of well, I found myself sort of growing towards her and changing myself to sort of not necessarily accommodate that, like she wasn't asking me to do this, but I just found myself changing to like fit the relationship more than maybe I should

Rachel Richards: 17:00

have done, which is so normal. Yeah, people do it as adults. I think it's harder to resist that when you're young, you've got a very plastic temperament and identity. And I mean, coming back to this whole you know, what do you do if your your child has a friendship and you don't like the friend, I always said, Well, they're probably looking at that friend and seeing something. Yeah, they want to, they there's a resell. But it doesn't mean to say they want to be that person. It just means that they they're reaching for that. And yes, I, I think there was, there was a moment when I started to see your identity, particularly your clothing, stepping over beyond where I saw Phoebe into something that where you weren't comfortable, you weren't comfortable, you would and you weren't even aware of it at the time, until you were getting stressed. And I thought, Ah, yeah, but it's very hard to see that unless you around you who go, oh, you know, I

Phoebe Richards: 17:55

certainly agree. And and also, I mean eating things like, like, aren't you? Like, we both had very busy days, because obviously we were at school and working things like that. So the only time we would be able to speak was an evening, and then us being asked, we would talk for hours, and sometimes we'd have phone calls, and we'd be up until 2am 3am on the phone. And I'd also just like, yeah, disturb other people in the house. And yeah. And so I found that my secret routine got messed up.

Rachel Richards: 18:24

Are you begged me, because normally I remove phones from rooms I don't like, and you said, Mommy, this is the only job I can talk to. Should I have put more boundaries on that particular situation? That was where I Yeah. You see, that's where I what I decided was I decided in this situation, I thought, I need to let her just

Phoebe Richards: 18:41

yeah and, and in all honesty, I was struggling, but I was managing like I my academics weren't didn't really slip that much. And you know, things like, I was able to maintain my life, even though it was more if

Rachel Richards: 18:56

I had seen your academics really suffering, do you think I should have stepped in? Um, because I could see your manager personally.

Phoebe Richards: 19:03

Yes, because I have aspirations, I have dreams, I have goals that are very, very dependent on academics. And I think I would have needed that intervention if things started going downhill. And that's also something that I noticed in the in the relationship as well, and it's only something I just want. It had ended is that I lost my dreams in the relationship. Gosh, that's so interesting. Like, I Yeah, but it didn't feel that at the time, but, but I felt like I had everything that I wanted, you know, like I was getting all of this happiness from my relationship. And it just kind of, I lost my aspiration. I lost, you know, my drive. I really did, wow. And it was a bit of a shock actually coming out of that, because I can see how things would have ended really differently. Me, wow, had I

Rachel Richards: 20:02

like, and do you think that was protective that you had a close relationship with me? Yes,

Phoebe Richards: 20:07

yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not that I was like, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't changing my entire life or anything like that. It's just, I actually, my actual drive, yeah, definitely, like, just

Rachel Richards: 20:23

Yeah. I mean, I could see, I could see it wasn't brilliant, but you still had time, because in your first year of very important years, and you were still keeping exactly work, and you were on, you know, the predicted grades were still good. So I was thinking and and that mattered to me, because it matters to you. So it wasn't something where it was my agenda. It was more your agenda. But I think, have I seen the thing that flags things up for me was your concern about your clothes and having me right for it? And I thought, no, no, this isn't right. Yeah, but I didn't stop things. I just looked at it and thought, this is worrying me. And then it ended abruptly, are you roughly? I mean, you were going back to school, and she called you and but over the phone, yeah, come on, come on. But this happens. This happens you're under this relationship. And I said to her, because we can unravel this. But I said to her, in my opinion, this was hard baked into the relationship. This end was going to happen at some point. Yeah.

Phoebe Richards: 21:26

So she's a year above me, and we'd spent a really lovely summer together. We basically spent the entire, well, yeah, saved for a few weeks, and actually some of those weeks away, like, I don't know, I wasn't the best girl. I wasn't doing anything more, but, you know, we had a few tips, but like, other than that, we spent a really nice song together, and then we'd also, we talked to she, she's gone to uni now, and we discussed staying together during uni, but it's evident now to me, obviously, with with kind of tight side, that that would just would

Rachel Richards: 22:06

not have worked, and it wouldn't have realized if I told you that you just let

Phoebe Richards: 22:09

them, yeah, yeah. It's so funny, because everyone always does this, but people would say, oh, you know, like that. You know, the relationships really struggle when you go to uni. No, we're going to be the anomaly. We're going to be outlier. We'll make it work. I just, I was just, I have my magic power I do mad. And I was like, No, we're going to be the ones

Rachel Richards: 22:30

Yes, yes, but yeah. And you know what's so funny is, I remember talking to your, one of your teachers. It was at, yeah, it was a summer event, and there were other kids who had relationships where they were going on to university, and I saw one of the boys walk off, and she went, won't last. Yeah,

Phoebe Richards: 22:47

no. And I heard that, and I was like, yeah, they won't last. Everybody won't last.

Rachel Richards: 22:53

So it was so how did you find the way that I supported you when you broke up,

Phoebe Richards: 23:01

I think you couldn't have done anything better. I think you genuinely, yeah, it was a very, very hard time. But, like, she ended things over the phone, and I was meant to be going back to school that evening, and I was absolutely devastated. And, well, yeah, I we didn't. We just went and hugged I just let you cry, yeah? And, and I did delay going back to school, yeah? So we didn't go, I didn't go to school. Nice day. And I think that's really important as well. If you've had a major breakup, yeah, like your child needs time, they really do, because it's like, really honor it is morning, yes,

Rachel Richards: 23:43

and take it seriously. Just because they're young doesn't mean that. Yeah, experience 100%

Phoebe Richards: 23:49

and it's just not product like I that first week. I mean, to be fair, for me, probably I was more productive with work. Yeah? But, I mean, nothing was really going in. It was more cool, like, actually, one of the things I did was that night, like, I did not sleep. That night, I got no sleep. I was crying, crying, crying, I did not I was in floods of tears. Got up out of bed at two, 2am 2am I was like, I'm not lying Ben anymore, I'm not sleeping. So I sat down, I just wrote

Rachel Richards: 24:27

my personal statement, because that's

Phoebe Richards: 24:29

your coping. Literally. There was no other way of blocking it out. I just had to focus on something, and I needed that deep focus because the thoughts were not leaving. And I'm also, I'm a really big over thinker, so I will fixate and as a really like that breakup was quite difficult because, so yeah, but I think one of the worst things from my experience coming off this that someone can do if you're going through a breakup is tell you all of the things, like the reason. Why you made the right choice, or, like, why you've won, or why they were so awful. Because actually, especially for me, like, I was broken up with it wasn't even like it was my decision, you know. So immediately that's like, I'm, you know, but and then having people tell you why you're so much better without them. It's just you're kind of dying all over again because you're like, This is someone who I put so much energy into. This is someone who I deeply loved. I did respect them. I did, you know, there were so many things that I did like about them, so then having your friends or like close relatives tell you the things that they didn't break up is not the best. No, no, that's not the best thing. But, you know, often people and they're trying to help, yeah, they're trying to help, people will jump to it and say, you know, Oh, you're so much better without them. Like they're so ugly now not enough that it doesn't have enough style anyway. Yeah, exactly. A lot of these things in but it doesn't help, like it might make you laugh. I don't think,

Rachel Richards: 26:01

I don't think I said,

Phoebe Richards: 26:02

No, you didn't. But I had some people, of

Rachel Richards: 26:05

course, because they think that was, oh, that plenty more fish in the sea. Exactly, classic, you know,

Phoebe Richards: 26:10

just rolling out the common phrase, and it doesn't just don't, don't do that. Stay away from it. That's really, yeah, having, having, having someone you love, being shattered on by all right, and

Rachel Richards: 26:21

she turned up 24 hours later to see you, and you called me. Said, Mommy, mommy, I can see, I can see the station. And I said, Do not, do not see her. Yeah? Because I at that point, that's where I intervene, because you had an exam to get into Oxford, yeah, in what, six weeks Yeah. And I just thought, you can't afford, yeah. To afford this, she's the person who did the dumping. You have to focus, yeah. What did you find? What did you feel about me saying that?

Phoebe Richards: 26:52

No, again, it was definitely the right call. It was definitely the right call.

Rachel Richards: 26:55

That was the point at which I thought, I have to say something. And you can't be allowed to Yeah.

Phoebe Richards: 27:00

And, and I basically said to her, Look, you know, it all felt very rash, like so much had happened. I remember reflecting that so much happened in the measure 24 hours. It was crazy. 14 hours I've been growing up with, and then asked for me. It was kind of crazy, but I think we were both kind

Rachel Richards: 27:20

of, she's young too, yeah, exactly. Felt like she'd made a terrible decision, yeah.

Phoebe Richards: 27:24

And I said to her, Look, I've got this massive exam like this is turning the root of my life, and I really need to focus on that. And I frankly, don't really have the time. No, and, and, and also I was, I was angry. I was upset. I was definitely like, oh, I had so much flying around. And also I thought that I did think that she looked a bit pathetic coming back. So I abutted. That ignited the fire in me, to be honest. And so I was like, No, I just need some space right now. And they said, in six weeks after my exam has is done, then I will talk, I will talk to you. And you know what we can resolve, not necessarily, you know, but like, we'll talk about it. And yeah, now I'm

Rachel Richards: 28:13

not going to pick the whole thing apart, yeah, because there's, it's a long story about and down, and it didn't completely end there. There was sort of intermediate points where she was back around,

Phoebe Richards: 28:28

not I just wanted to go every single time I asked for no contact, and every single time I was not the one breaking. Yeah, in my defense, I would say, Oh, I would say, this is a massive thing. Ask for no contact, right?

Rachel Richards: 28:41

It makes it whether you're

Phoebe Richards: 28:42

an adult or you're a child, yes, if you've just gone through quite an intense breakup, if you okay, this is, this is I listened to Emma Chamberlain's podcast. And correct your credit to her, because this is her point. If you ever loved them, you will not be able to be friends with them. Yeah, categorically, you will not be able to be friends with them. There'll be res, like, remaining feelings there, and so you have to go no contact, because you stay, like, keep talking to them. We'll just keep opening that wound that you're trying to heal from. It just It does not help.

Rachel Richards: 29:14

Yes, and it was very interesting, because after a while, she had come up with this idea about you writing to each other so you could keep in contact, which was a terrible idea.

Phoebe Richards: 29:26

It kind of was, yeah, this at a time. It didn't seem like that, yeah at the time. At the time, it sounded reasonable,

Rachel Richards: 29:35

but every time what I tried to do was because your dad was getting quite frustrated with it and and she even came to our house at one point after I said, I don't ever want that girl in my house again. He drove off, and yeah, he'd, well, you could you were in a park having a little lunch with her, because you were trying to sort of unwind. It weren't she. And it was really beautiful that that you were both trying to navigate this breakup. And then. You called me and said, Will you will you give us a lift home? And I brought you home because, of course, I'm going to do whatever you need. And she wanted to have a conversation with me and apologize to me, not that she needed to, but when your father walked in, he was he just walked straight out together. And then we had a row later, when I was just saying, you know, you've got to do what your daughter needs. It's got to be done.

Phoebe Richards: 30:24

But I yeah, I would say, I think it was very, it was very difficult, because we did kind of reopen things a few times, not she no open. So she kept, yeah, and, and and that was, that was hard, um, because it did, it definitely prolonged the healing process. Like, yeah, I remember when we first broke up again, listening to Emma James podcast, yeah, um, Emma James said at least six months. Like, that's how long. That's your minimum after a big breakup. Like, that's but in six months time, you will start to feel better, you know? And what a wonderful thing to know. Yeah, actually, it was so huge. It was so it was

Rachel Richards: 31:09

really, I mean, because some people it's two weeks, but they didn't really,

Phoebe Richards: 31:12

I was going for a month, so I was really, like, I was really

Rachel Richards: 31:16

struggling. And why do you think that it was so hard?

Phoebe Richards: 31:20

Because I blamed myself for a lot of

Rachel Richards: 31:25

what happened. Why? Um,

Phoebe Richards: 31:28

well, because, I mean, firstly, I was the one who was broken up with and and because it was so abrupt, and there wasn't really a reason for it, I had so many things in my mind. I was trying to, I'm a problem solver, so I was trying to unpick what it was, and I kept coming back to things that I had maybe done or said, or like things I should have done more. You know, I was there was the constant of, like, talking about, like, conversation of things I should have done. And, yeah, that was, really, wasn't helpful, because I was hurting because of the breakup, and I was also hurting because I had so much blame for myself, basically. So yeah, I was Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 32:13

and nothing, nothing. I said no. And it's really interesting, because, you know, in my opinion, it was always going to, yeah, it's almost gonna end at some point, yeah,

Phoebe Richards: 32:24

um, but, but, yeah, but I put in my calendar when we broke up six months from that, I was like, You should be here for her by now to my calendar, but, but that date has kept being pushed back because it kept being honest, you know, but, and, yeah, so it was, well,

Rachel Richards: 32:46

yes, because you were pretty much, you were feeling a lot better. I was feeling a lot better by Christmas, for example. And then, yeah, yeah. And then I have, so this is, I think, as a parent, it's actually when they keep re entering the child's life, it could be very frustrating. As you can see, the healing process going really well. Yeah, so

Phoebe Richards: 33:06

it was difficult because some of my friends not necessarily blamed me, but they, they, you know, said, Oh, well, it's with in your control not to respond, you know, right? Like, she kept reaching out, and they were like,

Rachel Richards: 33:19

Well, I do to what extent let's let's talk about this while we're on this. To what extent does social media make this much

Phoebe Richards: 33:29

harder? Oh, it makes it a lot harder because we still followed each other.

Rachel Richards: 33:36

What I thought you didn't. What? Wait you said, you know,

Phoebe Richards: 33:41

yeah, well, we don't anymore, but then I mean, after December, after after last time, right, right. No, we still bad mistake. Yeah, I know. I know. Oh, okay, um,

Rachel Richards: 33:58

so number one, they need. Number

Phoebe Richards: 34:00

one, everything, etc. Also, you've got

Rachel Richards: 34:03

lots of interlinking friends, yeah. So

Phoebe Richards: 34:07

I was seeing her face a lot on other people's stories, you know, seeing her stories, seeing her new life in London,

Rachel Richards: 34:18

and thinking, Oh, my God, she's moved on. She's having this amazing time. And then when you did talk to her, you discovered it

Phoebe Richards: 34:24

wasn't, yeah. I mean, that helps a lot. No. So this is

Rachel Richards: 34:27

the problem because social media, but this is one of the reasons social media is so problematic, yeah, because we know, you know, we've had these conversations time and again that what you're seeing is not created best, you know best possible.

Phoebe Richards: 34:41

And we were both aware that, yeah, like, yes. So, so you're

Rachel Richards: 34:46

sitting there thinking, Oh, she's moved on. Oh, her life is so much better. No,

Phoebe Richards: 34:50

yeah, well, yeah, to think so, um, but, but yeah. So, I mean, that did definitely complicate things. But I would say, like, do. One of the best things was unfolding each other. Because a lot of, I mean, breakups take up so much for your mental energy, and a lot of that does come from, like, same message from you and everything, but it just helps to get them out of your mind, because you're not, you know, every single what I found is one of the most important steps was starting to do things for me again, because everything I was doing until not long ago, I mean, a significant like, way through the healing process, I was still doing things with her in mind, yeah. So I noticed that I would post things, knowing that she would see them, yeah. Like I would, I would, you know, like, keep looking for her, or like reminders of her in certain places, or like things like that, you know. And there were certain days that I would show up. Well, no, actually, I didn't show up. I decided not to cope. But like, I was planning on doing things because she was going to be there, etc. And so, like removing each other from social media was a massive step in that, yes, I was no longer having their own mind when I was posting. It was very liberating, because I it was cut. It was cutting another tie, basically, to that relationship.

Rachel Richards: 36:16

Could you have done that straight

Phoebe Richards: 36:18

away? I could have,

Rachel Richards: 36:21

you didn't want to. This is the problem. You can kind of, and

Phoebe Richards: 36:25

it's, it's, I feel like it's also part of, like, You're in denial, yeah, when you're in a space, like, yeah, I would wake up and I would, every single morning, I'd be like, I'm no longer in a relationship. Like, you know, I love being in

Rachel Richards: 36:39

a relationship. I love that. I absolutely love it. I mean, you just generally, you're very much, yeah, I know. I love being connected by somebody. You I'm I'm

Phoebe Richards: 36:45

definitely, like a relationship person I I'm not, yeah, and, and it was kind of past. It wasn't really part, it was part of my identity. I saw myself as, yeah, her girlfriends. You know, this is the point. Yeah, I did, actually, my identity did, again, go through quite a big crisis when we broke up, because it was like, Who am I now, apart from this person who I've been with for so long now, you know, we've known each other for over a year, and

Rachel Richards: 37:13

in an intense way too. Yeah, it was very this is the whole thing that's so interesting about teenagers. Is this, this, this really unstable identity that kids have, and some will get into a relationship, and it won't really touch the sides much, and then they've split up and but it but really, those relationships aren't those big intense ones, but you have these big intense ones and and quite often they can really shift the dial a lot, yeah, and having to come back again and then, but your dial remains shifted. Just is you're having to find a new equilibrium, yeah, and that's really difficult to do.

Phoebe Richards: 37:46

Yeah, no, it is. And yeah, but I, you know, I feel I've learned so many things through this experience, and I am who I am because of her, like we I am this person I am today having gone through that relationship, and yes, you know so I don't, I don't begrudge or anything. I don't like, I wouldn't take anything back, because I feel like everything that I've learned is an unequal lesson, but it has shaped my identity. But part of, part of the process of rebuilding our identity after a breakup is, is like, it's yeah, it's very important.

Rachel Richards: 38:23

Moving forward, you went on hinge, which is so funny, so funny because you showed just briefly, and it was very funny because, because you had guys and girls that you were talking,

Phoebe Richards: 38:37

yeah, yeah. Well, the reason why I've come off it again is, firstly, I think I have an addictive personality, fair enough. I do know that about myself with, like, tick tock I can't be on I don't have tick tock because I know, like, it just takes up so much on my guess, because I don't have the control to to just, Oh, I like that. I literally, I can't go on these things, yeah. So I found out, I found that it was taking up a lot of my time, because it's because I was like, it's amazing. It's really enjoying, like, the next person. It is enjoyable. The next person could be the one like, yeah. So I was constantly bowling. They gamified it so much passion, you know, but um, and I was really unhappy with all the people that were coming up on my point my feed. So I was like, oh, no, I just keep you know, there might be another one. There might be not, no, no, no, um, but

Rachel Richards: 39:32

why? Why boys as well as girls? What? Where are you at? Well,

Phoebe Richards: 39:36

because I so this was part of the identity crisis. Thing is that I like, I don't know, like, I don't want to call myself something, yeah, and find that and then not be that, because I feel like that will upset a lot of people.

Rachel Richards: 39:52

But you told me early on, because I asked you about, you know, whether you wanted to have a specific identity and you wanted to identify in the LGBT, yeah. I. Actually, you said the thing about the lesbian community is it can feel really traitorous for a type of bi person. Well, yeah, what I like is that you're holding your identity loosely. Yeah. I mean, I say I am. I don't

Phoebe Richards: 40:12

feel like any of the labels fit me, like I wouldn't call myself bi, wouldn't call myself pan, like I don't really like any of the label thing. And why do we need to label? Why do we need to label? What does it mean and, and I know, for me personally, there's actually not really, like a characteristic that I look for in a person. It's, it's if I feel that spark and I feel that chemistry, then, you know, yeah, I kind of, I remember saying to you, like, I feel like I'm attracted to people's souls, and

Rachel Richards: 40:41

I want to be up on that, because you said that spark and chemistry, and that makes it sound like a sexual thing, but it's

Phoebe Richards: 40:47

like, if I connect with you like, I'm very, sort of tuned into my like relationship, my emotional connections with people, and that's really important for me, and only then if I feel like I have that with someone, then am I even entertaining the idea of moving forwards with that? Yeah, like I don't. Yeah. So your father

Rachel Richards: 41:12

and I met on a dating website at a time when there were no apps. Nobody was doing this. Everybody was shocked when they found out. But I was a TV presenter, and I kept meeting people all day, every day, but I kept thinking, This isn't who I am. I mean, this, this is a persona, yeah? And I didn't want people to mistake who I really was. And I was on that dating website for a year, just left my details up there. I wasn't contacting people. People were contacting me constantly, and I was just deleting them and, and eventually I got an email from your father, and I just thought, now you're interesting, yeah, funny. You've read my profile. You can write beautifully, and you've sold yourself sufficiently, and, and that's pretty much your father, anyway, and he takes this very seriously. And I think the reason I want to mention this is because I was talking to a boy I know who's in his 20s about dating apps and things, and he was he loved what I said, which is that you don't need all the people. You need the one person you're looking for, one person. So if you are in a dating app, or you are sort of hunting, and is not you're not meeting people in your immediate environment, which normally you will. So when you go to university, you'll meet people. Well, that's one of the reasons why. But with the dating apps, I think the trick is you are hunting for some just one. You don't need lots of people. So you need to know what you're looking for, and that's the importance of understanding your own identity and what matters to you, and to spending that time with yourself saying, Who am I? What would fulfill me? Really can make a difference?

Phoebe Richards: 42:49

Yeah, that's one of the things that pissed me off, was that there were so many people who were coming up in my like, my feed, or suggested people, I don't know what you call it, but who just clearly had not put any effort into their profile, not not necessarily, with pitch. Like it doesn't need to be, you know, a world class photo headshot in black and white, you know, yeah, like, it's more just writing your bio about who you are and your passion. Yeah, anyway, because

Rachel Richards: 43:16

that's what we connect with. Yeah, it's not, and it's not, yeah,

Phoebe Richards: 43:19

how many says to the side, yeah, exactly. Because actually, the number three people on hinge with six packs means that I'm more likely to choose on with a six pack. Who can write, well, then you just say, That's so fun. Yes, yeah. But anyway, there was something I wanted to say before, which was that I think one of the things that has really helped me move on is getting that closure. And I and I realized that closure can be really difficult, like finding, you know, closure is to this construct, right? That will never know that we fully had it or not, like it's, you know, but I there were things that I was hanging on to and through her coming back, kind of like, you know, messaging me again, even though it was difficult and it threw me back into the rut. And, you know, it prolonged. It has prolonged everything. It meant that some of my answer questions were answered, and and actually, what became clear to me from the last time was that it wasn't my fault. And, you know, none of my things ever been about me, right? It wasn't me. And it meant that I could immediately let go of all that blame that I had for myself. Oh, I love that. And, and someone described it to me because I saw a teacher at school, and she asked me how everything's been going. And I said, Well, you know, and she asked about the relationship, yeah, that's over. And, well, she actually asked me, because she really knew that it ended. But she asked how I was doing, and and she commented, and she said that I seemed a lot like. To her, and I explained to her that we had actually kind of, we had spoken again and and I feel like I finally got that closure. And she said, you had your finger stuck in the door. If you got your finger trapped in the door, pulling on it and trying to get away is painful, and it's not. You're not You're not going to free your finger by tugging on it and trying to run away. Sometimes you have to go back and reopen the door to shut it again. Who is this teacher I wanted to send that you're out, and I had my finger trapped in the door. Love that, because I had all this residual, you know, emotional blame, and you know, all of these things. And so it did for me personally, it did take talking to her again and going and sort of, you know, trying it that one last time to actually fully dislodge my fake, wow. And it worked, and it worked, and I've, you know, I've been able to fully shut that door and and I feel so much more free. So

Rachel Richards: 45:57

for the parents who get very frustrated with this situation, and they, all they see is the same thing over and over, oh my goodness, yeah, gonna get over it? Why? It's a process, and we have to kind of inch forward, and all the time, keep revisiting what's actually going on here. I was fully engaged with you, so I fully understood your mindset. I think your dad was looking on thinking, what the hell yeah, she's back again, my friends, you

Phoebe Richards: 46:21

know, like I said earlier, my friends were getting quite frustrated because they were saying, Why are you responding? Yeah, no, they were kind of blaming me. They were saying, like, why are you talking to her? Why aren't you just, why haven't you blocked her yet? And I think, I think it's because internally, I was like, there's still something that we need to resolve, and, and and, and I know that I kept entertaining it because that was still something there. And so, you know, I kept that door open rather than locking her, but now I've locked her on everything. So it's fine. Well,

Rachel Richards: 46:52

in a world of ghosting and, you know, shallow interactions, I all I can say is, I think this was an incredible first relationship. I think you've grown immensely from it. Both of you, I think, have done the best you can with what, what, what was there? Because I think she was emotional as well. She was growing too. She was learning. You know, nobody perfect. We make mistakes. We do stupid things and and I think actually, the fact that you both communicated so well, and you learned from this is amazing, yeah,

Phoebe Richards: 47:26

probably the, like, best communication that we've had was, was the last time we spoke really, yeah, like, because we had nothing to lose anything, yes. So then, right? So this is another thing. Like, this is where it's coming out. So, because we were long distance, I mean, it was, it was really difficult first relationship and long distance and and graduate girls like, I mean, it was really, yeah. So because we weren't seeing each other that often, it made the moments when we did see each other very, very special. And I think it meant that neither of us wanted to bring things up to each other, yeah, right, or deal with problems, you know, they were just small for fear of running, you know, that precious time that we had together because it was so rare that did cause resentment for both of us. I think there were, you know, things that we just weren't telling each other that, you know, we problems that we had and things like that. So when things definitively came to an end, those last few conversations were the most honest conversations we've ever had with each other about our emotions, because we have nothing to lose anymore. Yeah, and we could be unapologetically, completely honest and ourselves. And you know, because every single time we saw each other, it was, it had some perfects. How wonderful. But yeah, so I would say that's one of the dangers of, I mean, I don't, I can't speak for adult relationships, but I know that in our experience, it was definitely like the route times that we would see each other, oh, 100% like pressure for them to be really good. I've had,

Rachel Richards: 49:02

I've had long distance relationships. They are extraordinarily tough, and exactly what you said you you end up trying to either, when they see each other, there's so much build up that is not a good celebration, that you've got to dump it all, or that you're trying to say nothing, yeah, desperately trying to make it all lovely. And, you know, very, very difficult. So you know, hats off to people who manage a long distance relationship,

Phoebe Richards: 49:29

lying again, doing that there,

Rachel Richards: 49:32

right? Phoebe, thank you. That was amazing. Interesting. I learned things. Oh, if you found this useful, please let somebody else know. Send it to friends, families. Anyone who might find it helpful. Five Star Review would be amazing. Yes, that's how people find the podcast. Did you know that really, yes, it's the reviews on the podcast app. So it really helps me. If you want to contact me. There's a little button at the top of the podcast notes, and that's just to kind of message me. I can't message you back, but if you want to actually email me, it's teenagers untangled@gmail.com the websites, www.teenagersuntangled.com, I am on substack now. It's just great because it's not algorithm based or anything. It's a really beautiful white writing website, and that's it. That's it

Phoebe Richards: 50:23

for me. Amy, thank you so much. No, you're welcome. Thank you for listening. Yeah, big hug from me.

Rachel Richards: 50:27

Have a great week. Bye, bye. You