147: Puberty, toxic friendships, 'Pick me' girls - top tips for parenting teenagers from teenagers

It's a rare luxury to have both my girls available for half an hour to record an episode, and when I do I love to talk about listeners questions. Poor Amelia had a really bad cold, but she was still keen to help, so sorry about the sniffles.

This time we talked about:

Puberty and Body Changes

• Helping girls navigate early stages of puberty
• Discussing body changes with daughters
• Approaches to talking about wearing first bras

Toxic Friendships

• Defining what makes a friendship toxic
• Recognizing unhealthy friendship dynamics
• Setting boundaries and knowing when to end a friendship
• Importance of self-worth in friendship.

"Pick Me" Girls

• Origin and meaning of the term
• Different interpretations of "pick me" behavior
• Internalized misogyny
• How the term is used to criticize or police women's behavior

Gender Dynamics

• Male gaze and body shaming
• Societal expectations for girls and boys
• Pressures to conform to certain behaviors
• Importance of being authentic

If you have any other questions for my girls don't feel shy about messaging us. 

Chapters

• 1:17 Navigating Early Puberty
• 5:09 Bra Wearing and Body Awareness
• 10:28 Male Gaze and Gender Dynamics
• 14:15 Toxic Friendships
• 20:25 Understanding "Pick Me" Girls

Transcript

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled, the audio hub for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters, and the two teenagers are back again. Hello, girls. Thanks for coming back in. Hello. We now have our own microphones. You each have your own microphone. How luxurious is that we're in the big time, yay. Okay, we're going to talk today about helping girls through those first stages of puberty, navigating toxic friendships, and the term pick me girls. What on earth are they talking about anyway, this time, let's start with the one Susie and I have already discussed, but I thought it's really good to hear it from a younger girl's perspective. The question was, I'm a mom of three girls. I've noticed my nine year old has become very self conscious around me, and when I try to talk to her, there's no engagement whatsoever. She's clearly very uncomfortable. I believe it's related to body changes, which my 11 year old is not yet experiencing. I've made numerous attempts to give her space and discuss things, including writing notes, which she totally ignored, hanging around, folding washing, you know, near her, you know, that sort of thing, like lurking, she's just not opening up. What do you suggest girls writing notes is an interesting one. I

Amelia: 1:16

don't think I heard of anybody doing that before, really. Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. No, I just, I think if I was going through something, my mum's around leaving notes for me, I would be a bit like, what, what's going on?

Phoebe Richards: 1:31

I mean, she clearly feels really, sort of embarrassed, yes, and ashamed. I'll just always do something that she shouldn't be feeling. But

Phoebe: 1:40

I would say that, you know, if she doesn't feel comfortable confiding in her mum, then there's clearly a problem there, rather than, it's not that, like the bodily changes, which is the problem. It's interesting. Yes, yes. You know, I feel like, rather than just trying to front first and say, oh, like, you know, are you? Is this what you're experiencing? She should just try to have a conversation, not about that, but just about, you know, their relationship in general, perhaps, oh, really

Rachel Richards: 2:10

interesting. Hadn't thought of that

Amelia: 2:11

one. I agree with that. Yeah. Also, if you do want to address the body changes thing, maybe what you should do, or what she should do, is sit both of them down and talk to them both and be like, Okay, people go through these from like the age of nine till the age of, like, 13, and like, if you haven't gone started going through them and blah, because then hopefully that'll make her feel more comfortable, because it's not directed at her, yes, because then be like, Okay, this is for you, but if you've been leaving notes around to find I mean, I think the problem, like the main issue with that, I feel, is that you're trying to communicate with her, but at the same time, not right. So you're trying, you're trying to have a conversation with her without actually having a conversation with her, which I can see, I can see the thought process. But I think that that's probably not the best way to go, yeah, because actually, you obviously can't talk back or communicate

Rachel Richards: 3:08

back. Yeah, yeah. I did wonder, because I think we adults set the tone for what feels acceptable to talk about, and I think we need to be clear, that it's actually fine. It's completely normal. And we we have to find a way of setting that stage, don't we, because I think girls, you know, someone who's nine probably doesn't have any friends going through that, and probably feels like there's something wrong with her. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I like this. I like those responses. And what about another question, which was, how do you get your child, your daughter, to wear their first bra? Like comfort getting used to it.

Phoebe Richards: 3:46

You don't, oh, talk more well. I I'm really against that idea. I think obviously you can explain to them what a bra is and the purpose of a bra, but if she doesn't want to, then you don't make them like, yeah, simple as that. You know, I think for a girl to feel comfortable in her body not wearing a bra is such an important thing. And obviously, like, they serve a purpose, but bras are tools, you know, like, you know, like you can wear them to feel good about yourself. But equally, if she's perfectly happy without wearing a bra, then don't make like, don't make her feel ashamed for not wearing one. I don't, yeah, I put pressure on her. I completely agree to wear a bra if she doesn't want to. I think,

Amelia: 4:32

um, yeah. And also, you can kind of relax about that kind of issue, because at some point she will start wearing a bra. Yeah, they become cool at a certain age? Yeah, yeah. It's like everybody wants to get their first rat at a certain age, and I don't think you should pressure anybody under that age, because also make her feel very different to everybody else if they don't have

Phoebe: 4:52

one. Yeah. I think kids are very aware about these things, and when she becomes conscious that she feels like she needs to wear and that's when she'll stay. Afford and say I would like to wear one, yeah. But if she doesn't at the moment, then there's then, you know, there's no point. Yeah.

Unknown: 5:07

I do continue.

Rachel Richards: 5:09

I Yeah. I do wonder whether mothers, particularly from certain backgrounds, will worry about the male gaze. And I know that when I spoke to Amma, who comes from a desi so an Indian background said that she was constantly being forced to cover up from a very young age when any male entered the house. And I wonder whether it's linked to our fears

Amelia: 5:31

so but if they're not even wearing their first bra yet, yeah, then I think that that shouldn't be the forefront, that shouldn't be the biggest issue in the world. Yeah, I think that,

Rachel Richards: 5:42

like you just will crop tops you, yeah?

Phoebe: 5:46

But also, if, if your daughter doesn't feel uncomfortable about it, then you shouldn't feel uncomfortable. Yes, either, yes. Like, if, if she then starts getting unwanted attention from boys that starts bothering her, then it's a problem. But if she's not being bothered by anything, or she doesn't mind it, then there's no problem. Yeah, don't, don't create a problem when

Amelia: 6:04

there is okay, yeah, I think, I think one of the an issue that comes up quite a lot is women are scared when, I mean, I know quite a few women, teenagers, girls, who are scared when they're around men who they don't know because they're scared that they're going to be like, objectified or whatever, and they don't like wearing ravineing clothing because of the male gaze. My question is, Is this because we push that, that it's like a bad thing? I mean, if you feel uncomfortable in yourself that's completely fine. Cover up, don't wear whatever you like. Where will you feel comfortable wearing but do you think that they feel uncomfortable because they actually do feel uncomfortable, or do you think they feel uncomfortable because people have told them to feel

Rachel Richards: 6:53

uncomfortable? Yeah. And when I interviewed Joanne Finkelstein, who wrote sexism and sensibility, she made some amazing points about how early the comments about girls bodies and clothing happen, and how frequent they are, and it's nowhere near as frequent with boys, and it causes so much internal dissatisfaction and confusion, and the less we say, The better. So why

Amelia: 7:21

are we telling girls to cover up and not teaching young boys not to stare at girls? You girls have both complained

Rachel Richards: 7:28

about that. When it always comes come up, whether you're wearing a bra or not, they'll come and they'll basically talk to your boobs. Yeah, that's normal. They're going to be interested, aren't they?

Amelia: 7:37

If you're scared about male gaze, isn't it better to have conversations with the boys, because then that will be stopping the forefront of the issue there, instead of having conversations with girls about how they need to cover up, yes, because of the male gaze, yeah,

Phoebe: 7:52

yeah. I mean, that's more obviously this mother can't do that.

Unknown: 7:55

Oh yeah, yeah, like in jam, yeah.

Phoebe Richards: 8:00

I think clearly the daughter is in in a blissful state of, you know, yeah, because it's true, there's, you know, you hit a certain age, and then you suddenly, because it's like, you wake up one day, and then you're suddenly conscious of your it's a really weird thing. Like, I remember just not having any kind of self perception. Like I'd look in a mirror and I would just see myself, and I wouldn't criticize myself. Like it was really weird. And so I think this daughter is still living in that state, so you don't force it on her, because when you start making a child feel shame, that even if, even if you're not trying to make her feel ashamed, even if you just say, I think you should wear a bra that in, like, inherently, it might come across someone commented to you didn't. Yeah, I remember being young and being told that it was time for me to wear bra, and it wasn't by my mother, which I feel like also, that had an impact. Because I was like, oh, people are seeing something that I didn't realize was an issue before, and then it became an issue. And then, you know, it kind of, I suddenly had this awareness that if your daughter doesn't feel like she needs to wear on them, you know,

Unknown: 9:01

she's but what about if the mother

Rachel Richards: 9:03

thinks, Well, maybe other people will comment to make her uncomfortable. Maybe I'm the person who needs to tell

Unknown: 9:08

her, Well, I hate that logic.

Rachel Richards: 9:11

Yeah. I mean, I'm only saying I wasn't the person who said that with someone

Phoebe: 9:15

else. No, I agree, and that was my experience. But I think until that point, like I hadn't thought it was an issue. And I I plan, I didn't think, yeah, exactly. So no one felt like I needed to wear a bra, including myself. And so I feel like I don't know, at that point, that was when I was like, oh, I need to start wearing a bra. Well, I didn't even wear a bra. I was just wore a crop top. But you know that I think clearly the daughter doesn't feel like she needs so I feel like there's no point in trying to protect your kids from these things. Because, you know, when someone comments that's clearly, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen anyway. Yeah? So I hate the whole Oh yeah. I need to do tell my daughter this, because if I don't tell her, no one else will like i. However, so because I know a lot, a lot of teenage girls who end up getting assaulted by their parents, quite a lot because of that logic. And my point is, if nobody else is going to tell them, then it shouldn't be that big of an issue. If it's something like, Okay, where are you doing? Okay, then that's fine. But if it's like, I don't know, you need to put more makeup on or something like that, that just shouldn't even be on your radar. Like, as a mother, I've had people who have

Rachel Richards: 10:28

what I think that's rare,

Phoebe: 10:30

but, yeah, I don't think we have to say, don't tell your kids to wear more makeup. No,

Amelia: 10:35

but no. But my point is that don't think in the way okay, if I don't tell my kid to do this, and, like, if I don't tell my kid about this and nobody else will,

Rachel Richards: 10:43

right, right? That's a good point. So let's move on. What about toxic friendships? One parent asked us to talk about tips for navigating toxic friendships, and I guess the question we should start with is, what's a toxic friendship?

Phoebe: 11:01

I mean, I think I've been quite fortunate in my friendships, but for a long time for me, it was basically no friends to the most amazing friends. Because I think also, like, I was in a certain state of my life where I was like, if, if no one's going to be like my best friend, then I don't want anyone. Basically, I was like, Okay, fine. You know none of you want to be friends with me. I don't need you either. But I think toxic friendships are ones where you just don't feel secure at all like, you know they're not showing up for you in the way that you would expect a friend to. Yeah, they're like, they you don't feel like they've got your back or they'll give you attention. And then, you know, yeah, you

Rachel Richards: 11:46

just don't feel secure or deliberately undermining, yeah, like, frenemies.

Unknown: 11:51

Yeah, I have so much experience with

Phoebe: 11:53

this, yeah. I mean, she's probably more versed on this. I have

Amelia: 11:57

had some very good friendships. I've also had some great friendships, and I currently have only kept like, two of these friendships, but, yeah, I think, um, toxic friendships. Everybody, I think, at some pace, some stage, goes through a toxic friendship. I mean, you said you'd be very lucky, but

Unknown: 12:15

I probably I have had, yeah, but that was, and

Amelia: 12:20

I feel like most people have been toxic at some point. Like, I don't think you could go through life without accident or on purpose, putting down other people. At some point, people go through phases. I think that the most important thing is to realize that it's not about you. Like, very interesting, I know. So a couple of people at my old school who are very like, really, they put you down a lot, but in very, very small ways and constantly over long periods of time. So that if you told somebody, like, Okay, this is what they said to me, it would be like, What do you mean? That's not that bad? Like, that's fine. Like, that's just, yeah, what are you over? Like, predo Seeing the so much of it and all the time. It was very like, Okay, are you just making me feel crap about myself all the time? Anyway, I think the most important thing to realize is that they are projecting. Everybody's projecting, yeah, especially teenagers. There's a

Phoebe: 13:20

difference between Yeah, like you said, kind of toxic, but we can all be toxic at times. Yeah, that's not necessarily what makes it a toxic. Yeah. Like, some friendships, some dynamics are inherently toxic, yeah, and it's just in those circumstances you can't really change it, because it's just, it's the way that that friendship has formed. And I actually wouldn't really call it a friendship. I don't think, I think toxic friendships are an oxymoron. Yeah, very good point. That's actually a friendship, because there's

Rachel Richards: 13:47

tricky friendships, yeah, where navigating it sometimes things are like, I've had friends where they do certain things that really upset me, or they don't. They say they're going to pay for something, then they never deliver the money. And because I still like them and I still value them, I ring fence that area so that I don't expose myself to the difficult things. Those are tricky friendships, but they're not toxic like these. Are not people who are horrible to me and cruel to me, I think, undermine me. I think with

Amelia: 14:15

toxic friendships, you also you need to remember your worth. Yes, you need to remember that's the difference. So also, what would happen is like, so it would be like with this, with these friendships, it would be like you. They would put a lot of energy and then take it away. So like, laugh, but I guess in a friendship way, so you never quite know where you are. I and then I then would be like, trying to put in as much energy as possible and be like, really, really over the top, like, nice to them, which is just, like, everything a lot worse, because then it seemed like I was coming across as fake. Yeah, because I'm not gonna lie, that was kind of fake. Because, like, I'm not actually that, like, like, people, please. Yeah, no, exactly. I'm not actually people. Use it like that in that way. But I began acting like that because I wanted them to like me, because

Rachel Richards: 15:08

you didn't know what it was that makes them exactly and they should

Amelia: 15:11

like you because just you. I think what most important thing is to remember your worth and remember that even if you, no matter how much energy you put in, if you're not receiving it, then it's not worth it. Yeah,

Unknown: 15:23

I think, I think you made a really good point, which is that, you know that there are issues with all friendships, and it's, it's kind of the difficulty is working out which ones are worth trying. Yes, yes, ones. You know you do need to just end and I think especially when you're young, it's very difficult to work out, you know, and also to set boundaries, like it's it's hard to learn, and I think that's the first thing you need to do, actually, is go, what am I actually looking for in a friendship? What kind of friend do I want to be, and what do I expect from my friends? And make sure that you're fulfilling both of those things, because if you're not being a good friend, then how can you expect other people as well? But also, you go, okay, what are my, you know, my boundaries? What are what? What do I expect from people? And if they're not meeting those boundaries, don't I mean, they're like, outright cut people off, but, but, you know, like, give them that feedback and say, Look, this is how this is coming across to me. And then if things don't start changing, and also you don't see, if you don't see a friendship as you know, being fulfilling or being worth and then, I definitely think there's something to be said for cutting people off. Yeah, I really do. And I know it's, it's quite kind of extreme in some circumstances, but sometimes that's what you need to do. Because if someone's taking your energy and it's not, it's not fulfilling in any way, then, especially

Amelia: 16:49

if you try and have conversations about what's going on, yeah, they kind of react in a way which is not very interesting, or like, they kind of just don't like, they're like, Oh, well, I'm sorry. Well, I didn't realize that. Like, yeah, defense, yeah, defensive, that's it. Yeah, because

Phoebe: 17:04

there will there. I believe there are people out there for everyone, like everyone has for someone out there, not necessarily, like a soulmate, but friend, anything. Who gets them, yeah, who? And they, they might not have them right now, but they will be there in the future. And I do believe that having a very, very small group of friends is much better than a big group of friends, which are very toxic and causing you a lot more stress. And you know, and

Rachel Richards: 17:27

also, while you're wasting time in that toxic group trying to fit in the person who might be the perfect fit for you or a good fit for you, yeah, probably was looking at you thinking, Oh, she's having a great time. She's not for me. So in some ways, actually sort of separating yourself a bit and spending time alone can be very healthy. I mean, another mother who was saying she was worried about her daughter who had no friends, and I said, Well, actually, sometimes that can be really healthy. Yeah, it feels very painful at the time. And I actually very healthy because it means you're not compromising who you are to try and do it with something very difficult.

Amelia: 18:02

You know, I think, I think you become who you hang out with, as in, you don't become them, obviously, but you adopt personality traits Absolutely. And when you're alone or you don't have any friends, then the personality traits which you are adopting are your own. You find, you discover who you are as long but the problem is that, like, you could be alone and be happy, and you can be alone and be very unhappy. You need to become okay and, like, happy the fact that you don't have anybody and realize that in the future you will that you will gain not planning. Yeah, well, yeah, that's like, then you can discover who you are, and then you can figure out all these things about yourself which you didn't know

Phoebe: 18:40

before. Yeah, no, no. I just can say that's like, that thing where you know, if you want to know, like, the most about someone, look at their five persons friends, yeah, like, you know they're five plus as people, because it says a lot about who you are, yeah, because we pick friends, friends who mirror our values,

Rachel Richards: 18:55

yes, and who make us feel good about ourselves, in a way. And so those people are making you feel good because they you like taking drugs with them. That's not

Phoebe: 19:04

Yeah, but yeah. But coming back to the question, I think toxic friendships aren't are kind of, I think that unavoidable to an extent, because if, if that person is causing that dynamic, it could be you, if all of your friends friendships turn up toxic, then maybe it's time to kind of take step back and reflect and go, what is the actual causing? Because it could be, you know, and no one's perfect, like you might be causing. And then, and then you have to reflect, but, but if you see one of your friends friendships heading that direction, then you know, some you need to reflect and go, is this something that's worth

Amelia: 19:43

continuing? Yeah, I think one of the really, another, really important thing is being able to take accountability. Yeah? So I think if you are in a friendship group which is just inherently toxic, then everybody is contributing to that. Yeah, not just, it's not like you can't just label, yeah. US, and you can't just be there like it's you as well, yes, and that doesn't say that you're that just means that, like, this is a bad situation. Maybe you should take some time alone, work on yourself, and then figure out what you want, who you are, and then go back into like, the whole friendship thing, and figure out, like, who, like actually is there for you, and who you are there for and then figure out who your real friends are.

Rachel Richards: 20:25

That's a beautiful point. And I think that taking accountability ourselves and also realizing that there are certain structures that repeat time and time again, and these big friendship groups, which we've talked about in previous episodes, and I'll put the link in this, they tend to have certain roles that people play. And once your child can recognize the roles, it helps them go, oh, actually, I think I'm playing a role rather than being myself. And part of the reason for that is because I'm in this structure, and it's, it's not one person's fault, it's a dynamic, and maybe stepping away from that rather than trying to perpetuate it, is going to be a much healthier option. Yeah, you know. So we talked about the Queen Bees and Wannabes and the targets and all that stuff. So if you haven't listened to that episode, it's so powerful and such an interesting point. And the Queen Bees and Wannabes book is very, very useful for that. And so while we're on the subject of that. Let's talk about pick me girls. Mia, when I mentioned that you, you just went, Yeah, and it was a mother who wrote and said, Pick me girls. I don't understand what it is. Is it just a Tiktok thing? No,

Amelia: 21:37

it originated on Tiktok. Is just a thing now,

Unknown: 21:40

well, I mean, it's just, well, pick me is just a label, basically. So

Rachel Richards: 21:44

actually, I looked it up that said the term pick me first started on Twitter under the hashtag tweet like a pick me, which was used to mock women who fall under the guysgirl category, and then pick me girl garnered 2.2 billion views on Tiktok.

Amelia: 22:00

Oh, yeah. Well, maybe it did start on Twitter, though. Start on Twitter. Then the more I've thought about it, the more I couldn't hate the term, because I think that. So

Rachel Richards: 22:08

let's wait. Let's unpick what the term is. Sorry. Okay, so

Amelia: 22:12

a pick me girl really can range to anything, though, which is the problem? Oh, barpoint. What it originally was was somebody was a girl who pretends to be friends. Well, he's friends with all these boys because she likes the male attention and because like she she's not like other girls, just one of the boys. I'm so so different. Don't

Unknown: 22:35

put me so ticklish,

Amelia: 22:40

that kind of thing. And I thought we always do it in American accent.

Rachel Richards: 22:45

Amelia, you really like Grey's Anatomy. Oh, I love your Pride and Prejudice.

Amelia: 22:52

You've never watched it, so, okay, well, they were missing out. If you guys haven't watched it, go watch it anyway.

Rachel Richards: 22:56

There's an infamous 2005 monolog by Grey's anatomies, Meredith gray, which inspired a satirical trend, go,

Amelia: 23:05

pick me, choose me, love me. So she knows she exaggerates the breathing in between as well, because basically what was happening is so he has a wife, and she only found out halfway into their relationship when they, like, decided to be moving together and stuff. And the wife came back, and he was trying to decide between the two, and she asked him to she did. She begged him to pick her. So

Rachel Richards: 23:28

is that? So she starts out with, pick me. You always come up with his grit, rejections, redirection. Well, nothing is. Some people look at her monolog and say it's a desperate plea if you're having to ask someone, and others say it's a genuine expression of love.

Amelia: 23:50

What happened, though, was because she told him to fuck off. Basically, before that you she was like, You have a wife. What are you doing? Messing around with me. And then she realized that he was actually like, then she realized, like, Okay, I actually really love him. So she went and gave back to, it's still

Unknown: 24:06

very, it's still very plot of

Rachel Richards: 24:12

coming back to the whole, one of the reasons I brought that up is because they, they mocked her, and they used the whole pick me thing, but that so that's why, as you say, it's become a really generic thing. Everyone is talking about pick me girls, and as as anything that you do,

Amelia: 24:29

yeah, you know, in an interview, her daughter was like, she was talking about how her daughter was telling her about all these pick me girls, and like Adam Pompeo, so she's the actress, and she was like, you realize that originated with me. That's

Phoebe: 24:41

so funny, that's so fun, but, yeah, but I would say now the term has definitely become a lot wider, as you made a good point, which is that you can literally apply it to anything. But I think it's not just kind of being with the guys. It can also be comments about like, ah. I, you know, I just, I can't finish, I can never finish anything on my plate. Like, I'm just,

Unknown: 25:04

Oh, my God, literally, I got such a small stomach. Like, my jeans just never fit me. They always fall down. Yeah? And it's like, it's like, my waist is too small. I'm just so small. Yeah,

Amelia: 25:18

I just, it's so frustrating. I forgot to eat lunch today, and

Unknown: 25:22

it might be coming from an authentic place where just someone is actually just frustrated with these small things, but like, it's things that people tend to envy, and certain people making them into, like, a negative experience that they like, that they have it. They're just so annoyed to have this thing that most people actually want. And, you know,

Amelia: 25:46

I'm just so petite. Yeah, I could fit in a suitcase. I'm just so pretty.

Unknown: 25:53

So, yeah, but I think, I think it is being thrown around far too much now, and usually it is being used in a way to just put down. Yes, no.

Rachel Richards: 26:03

So interestingly, there was a book called Gone Girl, which really took off when it first came out. There's been a film since, and in it, there was a line that really summed up this sort of way of thinking. And she was called a cool girl, but it's being the cool girl means I'm a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, burping, who plays video games, drinks, cheap beers, loves certain things about sex and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she's hosting the world's biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size two, because Co cool girls are above all hot, hot and understanding. Cool girls never get angry. They only smile in a chagrined loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. I don't mind. I'm the cool girl. So that was also, I think there was a an uptick of girls being really cool going out drinking beer in the 90s, one of the boys, one of the boys, one of the lads. So that's another thing that I think people have been accused as being, pick me girls for, is placing the value on activities, interests and habits differently, championed by straight, cisgender heterosexual men, sometimes to their own detriment.

Amelia: 27:19

Well, the thing is, there he is now, anything you say can be perceived as pick me. Like, if you want to put down a minute, then it's really, really easy to yeah, there's this trend going around on Tiktok right now, which is like, where's all causes social like, what I can reply, and then it has all the different replies, and it's like, pick me, pick me, pick me, pick me, like all of them are, pick me because you can do but you can't reply, no anything. It's a way of policing

Unknown: 27:42

language. But I guess, I mean, this is a new version of, for example, if someone was working really hard at school, they'd be called a try hard. Like, you know, a lot of things being turned into negative things. And I'm not saying that it's necessarily like a good thing to go out of your way to seek attention from men. But, like, clearly a girl who does that might have some insecurities if she's just seeking validation from men, and, you know, potentially abandoning her friends to go that far. So instead of pushing her down, maybe we should actually be addressing the real problem. And also,

Amelia: 28:14

also, it's not just those women, though. It's like, you have your friends with guys, yeah, yeah, exactly. If you like anymore, oh yeah, you'll pick me. If you like maths instead of art, it's like, right? If you like science, you'll pick me. Like you're trying to do something slightly different. Wow, yeah, anything, anything which is perceived as house of normal, like, if you're, if you're proud of your achievements,

Unknown: 28:36

makes me so pick me. I'm sorry, and the fact that I just said that makes you pick me as well. Do you

Rachel Richards: 28:41

think there's an equivalent for boys?

Unknown: 28:45

I think O is just a lot more blunt about it, like they're rather than being like. I do

Amelia: 28:52

think they call each actually. I think that the probably the the male equivalent would be each other, gay, if you think about it, because being Pick Me is classically like having male friends and being friends with men and being gay. I'm sorry I'm not homo. Being gay, yes, like in air quotations, yeah, these being friends with girls, like dance, enjoying art, enjoy things that are classically female, feminine, like that kind of thing that I they have different

Unknown: 29:21

meanings, but I do think men would see that as a guy trying to get with girls, though, no, they would see that as

Amelia: 29:27

Yeah, right, yeah, no. But my point is, it's a way to put down men, yeah, liking things which are normal, yeah, unwilling,

Rachel Richards: 29:36

yes. And just to back you up. Niobe way, who's done 40 years of research on young boys says one of the worst things you can call another boy at a sort of 1415, year old is gay, which is still happening now, which is still very much in the fall.

Unknown: 29:52

Yeah, I think it's all sort of symptomatic of our aversion to otherness, like we're just gonna try. Trying to Yes. It's a way of controlling blessing people who are trying to do something

Rachel Richards: 30:04

different, yes, or be themselves. Yeah. No, no, they're searching for, you know, what am I? What? Well, like, what is good about me? How do I be this wonderful person that I am in the world? And you look for the things that make you special and great, because we all want to feel good about ourselves, that's, normal human behavior. But then if you vocalize anything that makes you feel good about yourself, you're you're risking being called. It sounds like it's a pick me, right? So what to breaking it down a little bit. We've got the pick me girls who are saying, Oh, my waist is really small and it and so and she's delivering that to other girls. And then there are pick me girls who are trying to garner male attention, and in doing so, trying to put down other women for their femininity, and saying, Oh, I'm one of the boys, and they brought me very special. And pick me because I'm

Amelia: 30:53

there's a difference between, like, one girl who's trying to be frozen boys and then the girl who say, Oh yeah, my waist is so, like, slim. I mean, I think we slap the same label on both. Oh yeah, I completely like but the classic pick me girl would be somebody who's friends, but who's like, friends with all the boys, but then also has, like, this tiny waist, and it's like, this really, really beautiful woman, and who is proud of that and talks about it a lot and puts down other women because she's very like beautiful and wants the male attention more than she wants female attention, and will stop other women from getting women from getting it.

Rachel Richards: 31:24

So it's basically internalized misogyny, pretty much labeling other women as pick me girls, without really understanding that what you're doing is you're actually holding up a system that's making everybody feel horrible. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I have been accused by has been picked me by you in the past. I find it really interesting, because I, as a young girl, didn't grow up in any particular group. I moved so often that I didn't have a friendship group in the way that a lot of people develop. And when I did start being friends with girls, I think what happened is this desire to control does happen wherever you are, and I didn't like it, and so I stepped away. Yeah, so rather than, rather than trying to actually take part in it. I mean, I remember a girl turning to me when we were on our own and saying, I look so much better than you when we were moving out to an evening. Yes, it was really interesting. And I thought, wow, really curious thing to say to someone who's supposed to be your friend. And rather than say something back to her, because I was so stunned, I just thought, okay, so you're just not my friend. That's not a thing, a nice thing for someone to say. But I think, and then I spent more time with guys only because they allowed me to just be myself. And I wonder whether a lot of these girls who get labeled as pick mes are actually girls who are trying to step away from this really confining idea of what a girl should be, which starts very, very young, and trying to just be allowed, to just be themselves.

Amelia: 32:56

I mean, I actually that wasn't what I called you pick me. It's just, it's like comments which are like, Okay, well, that's classically a pick me. But other thing is, because you're not growing up in this day and age, you obviously don't see nothing to be less because, like you're you don't know what a pick me is, you know, because

Rachel Richards: 33:11

that's why this Mother has said, I don't understand it. What on earth are we talking about? And what about 10 Things I Hate About You?

Unknown: 33:17

Oh, I love

Rachel Richards: 33:17

his cat. Stratford could be argued. Well, she's going against what the girls are doing. Yeah, she

Unknown: 33:25

doesn't like what girl she's doing. She is, but she's not a pick me. She's not pick me. So what's the difference? Because she does, she doesn't like male attention. She's not trying to get me. Okay, well, you can

Rachel Richards: 33:34

distinguish yourself from a pick me. Girl is to not be

Amelia: 33:37

trying. Well, no, the thing is, the cat is that she completely moved away from all the female attention, right, all the female guys, all that, but she also moved away from male she didn't want anything to do with anybody at that school. She was just over everybody. And thing is, I think if this was real, she actually did get called a pygmy, that she wouldn't give two shits either, because she was her whole thing was like, Oh yeah, I don't care what you think, which is why she's not a pick me, so she wasn't trying to attention. It

Unknown: 34:04

comes down, yeah, it comes down to your intention, basically, what? Why are you doing this? If you're doing it to just like, escape these like, constraints that society puts on you, that's honorable. But if you're, if you're seeking male attention, male validation, for that purpose, and you're, like, actively doing different things for, you know, for that reason that's seen as pick me

Rachel Richards: 34:25

interesting, right? So really, the distinction is a pick me girl is actually sitting inside this difficult hierarchy and this misogyny. She's not even realizing that she's trying. She's actually playing a game,

Unknown: 34:37

yeah? Rather than just, she's not playing football because she likes football. She's playing football because boys she was, yeah, yeah. She's not drinking beer because she likes beer. She's drinking beer because boys are drinking beer, and she wants to be one of the guys. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 34:49

yes, yes. When I finally found a best friend, we were united on the fact that we basically just wanted to be ourselves, and we didn't buy into so

Unknown: 34:57

I think, I think that's, I think it's like, yes. You through the fakeness, yeah? And it's like, if you're doing if you're changing all of your behaviors to to conform to one thing, yeah, it's just the same. It's like you're not conforming to being what stereotypically a girl, but you're changing yourself to what stereotypically like boy, things so that you can, you know, be friends. Not even friends get in there. I think

Amelia: 35:18

it's girls are a lot more accepting if you if you are hanging out with girls and you're completely changing who you are, what you're doing, everything about yourself to fit in with the girls, and that's fine, whereas if you hang out with boys, who

Unknown: 35:31

are changing everything

Rachel Richards: 35:32

to fit Yes. And it should be fine for girls to be very girly if that suits them. Yeah. And it should invite the problem is that actually one of the reasons such a great topic is it gives us an opportunity to say we need to stop looking at other people and criticizing

Amelia: 35:49

choosing also. Well, I mean, this is a bit off topic, but one of the things which I think everybody either went through other than, like a select few of individuals, is the I hate pink phase, but it was never about the color. Interesting. What was it about? It was about just like, women trying to, like, be fit and be seen as, like, yes. So yeah, this is what a woman is, which is actually kind of awful, because, like, I don't know any boys who've gone through the I hate blue phase.

Rachel Richards: 36:18

Yeah, right. I think we've covered this. I think actually, that was a really interesting discussion. I think pick me what we should be saying to our children about Pick Me is actually, rather than using that maybe question why that's even a thing and whether we're using it to judge other people, people

Amelia: 36:35

don't really like I wouldn't I would say to one of my friends, oh yeah, that's such a piggy thing to say. You used to say it a lot. Well, you said to you, yeah, but I would say that I've had a lot, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Richards: 36:47

Okay. Well, so we need to be saying to our kids, actually, maybe let's drop the judgment. Thank you, girls, that was absolutely brilliant. I'm very grateful to you spending time with us. If you found this useful, please send it right now to at least one other person. You can email me on teenagers untangled@gmail.com you can go to my website, which is www.teenagersuntangled.com and don't forget to follow the show. It makes such a big difference with the visibility of the show, and it really helps me get more listeners, and it costs you nothing. That's it for now. Have a great week. Recover from me. Bye, Bye, girls, you.