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How We Can Heal
A podcast to share deep conversations about How We Can Heal from life’s toughest circumstances.
How We Can Heal
Finding Connection & Joy After Losing a Child with Anna Ratnathicam Diab – in Memory of Carolina Diab
Facing the unimaginable pain of losing a child, Anna Ratnathicam Diab opens her heart to share the story of her daughter Carolina, who passed away suddenly at age 11 during a family trip to Uganda in 2019. What unfolds is a raw, honest conversation about navigating grief's unpredictable terrain and finding meaningful ways to honor a child's memory.
Anna vividly recalls Carolina's vibrant personality—her love of bright colors, her notorious sweet tooth, and her habit of wearing "pattern on pattern on pattern" that made her mother chuckle. When describing the day Carolina died after complaining of a headache, Anna doesn't shy away from the brutal reality of those moments in a remote hospital, making impossible decisions no parent should face. The scene of local women gathering outside the hospital in the dark early morning hours, standing silent vigil with Anna in her grief, creates an unforgettable image of human connection transcending language and culture.
Rather than following predictable stages, Anna describes grief as waves—initially constant and overwhelming, gradually becoming smaller and more predictable over time. "There's still moments that suddenly trip me up," she shares. "Now I know you just have to sit in it and it will pass and you'll put yourself back together again."
Five years after Carolina's death, Anna has discovered unexpected pathways to healing: maintaining relationships with Carolina's friends, finding places to honor her memory (including a street intersection named for Carolina outside her elementary school), and remaining open to spiritual connections.
Perhaps the most powerful moment comes when Anna recalls experiencing genuine joy again while watching a UCLA basketball game—something she and Carolina had enjoyed together. "It felt foreign...but in a good way," she explains. "Like oh yeah, I will feel this again." Her message to other bereaved parents cuts through platitudes to offer the one truth she could have absorbed in early grief: "You will feel joy again."
Whether you're navigating your own grief journey or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers profound insights into how we carry both our losses and our capacity for joy forward.
Season 5 of the How We Can Heal Podcast is sponsored by Simple Practice. If you're a therapist, psychiatrist or allied health professional in private or group practice, their easy-to-use online system can help you simplify your business so you can focus your energy on caring for clients. About 7 years ago, I made the switch from logging everything on paper– I know so old school– to their online practice management software and I'm telling you I will never go back. Everything is organized now and it's easy to schedule, share files and provide super bills to clients. I only wish I'd made the change sooner. If you're just starting out or want to simplify the business side of your clinical work, I highly recommend Simple Practice. Right now they're offering a seven-day free trial with 70% off your first four months. Go to simplepractice. com/ how we can heal, or use the link in my show notes to take advantage of this offer today.
Lisa Danylchuk:If you love this podcast, I bet you would love the Yoga for Trauma online training program. This eight-week certification is for anyone who wants to learn how yoga philosophy and practice can help respond to the impact trauma has on our bodies and brains. When you join the program, you'll learn the theory and best practices for incorporating somatic skills into your healing work. Students often come into the program knowing that yoga can be helpful for stress management, but unsure about how to apply the practice to specific aspects of trauma recovery. This program breaks it all down and leaves you feeling clear about your choices as you support folks navigating post-traumatic stress. Whether you're managing a program, support folks navigating post-traumatic stress. Whether you're managing a program working one-on-one with clients or leading therapeutic groups. Of course, the experience is good for you too. With eight modules and eight yoga classes, you'll get a taste of how it feels to practice yoga in a resource-building, trauma-responsive manner. Head on over to howwecanheal. com/y 4t – that's the letter Y, the number four and the letter T – to apply to join the program today. Mention the podcast in your application for a special bonus. One more time, nice and slow. The website is howwecanheal. com/ Y4T. Our next cohort kicks off June 9th. If you're feeling called to join us, I would love to welcome you and support you through the program.
Lisa Danylchuk:Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast. Today, our guest is Anna Ratnathacam Diab. Anna and I met as high school students visiting the UCLA campus and we're friends throughout our college years together there. Today we talk about her daughter, Carolina Diab, who passed away in 2019. Anna shares her experiences as a parent, the story of the day Carolina passed Heads up this is very appropriately an emotional story and how Anna's found healing after the trauma of losing her daughter.
Lisa Danylchuk:Anna shares about the many ways connection has been helpful in the wake of such a profound loss.
Lisa Danylchuk:She shares her efforts to stay open to a sense of spiritual connection, her dedication to her sons having as magical a life as Carolina did, and she identifies the supports that helped her navigate the whirlwind of emotions that come with this kind of loss. This episode is in honor of Carolina, of my brother, matt, who we talk about a bit here too, and of anyone you've loved who you can't call or curl up next to anymore. It's also an offering to anyone who's lost a child a trauma so visceral that we don't often talk about it in the open and the way we do here today. I hope this conversation gives you comfort, courage and, especially if you've lost a child yourself, the knowledge that, while your experience is, of course, unique, you're not alone in your grief. I hope you'll join me today in honoring those we've loved and lost and in giving the most massive hug to my dear friend and our guest here today, Anna Diab.
Lisa Danylchuk:I was thinking, when kind of leading up to this, about when we met right...
Lisa Danylchuk:I thought about that this morning on my run.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:actually Did you yeah, I really did.
Lisa Danylchuk:The like blue super shuttle right.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:The super shuttle, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:On the way from LAX to Westwood to go check out UCLA, I was trying to remember what time of year that was. It must have been like spring, because you've already been accepted.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:but there's still springtime.
Lisa Danylchuk:We were what 17?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I would have still been 17.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh my goodness, like more than half a lifetime ago.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Literally, yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, what do you remember from that? That day? That weekend we met.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I don't remember much. I know you and I tried to go to a fraternity party. Of course we did I don't remember that, but I don't actually remember anything UCLA related that we did or accomplished, and I don't even know if we got into a party, but I know we tried. That's so funny, I don't remember.
Lisa Danylchuk:I just remember meeting you in the super shuttle and being like oh okay, cool, Someone else from my hometown, she seems pretty cool, she wants to go here too. And then fast forward. You ended up becoming really close with Marietta, one of my roommates. So many fun stories that won't make it onto this podcast. That will stay forever in the realm of no social media and no video evidence so much better.
Lisa Danylchuk:But I am really grateful that we met and that we know each other and we're here today to talk about, like, the not so fun things, not so much the frat parties, but more the hardest things we go through in life. You know, when I was at UCLA, my older brother passed away. I was 22. He was 25. And then in 2019, december, you lost your daughter on a trip with your family and that was really sudden. And so now we have this connection that, like you never want to have with anyone, but I think is also really powerful and really helpful when those things do happen, to find those people who have been through something similar it's never going to be the same but who can just kind of grasp like, oh, I have a taste for where you are right now. Right, so I'm curious for you just to back up a little. I want to say Carolina's name, carolina, and I want to just sort of almost invite her into the space.
Lisa Danylchuk:You and I talk about being like you're a science major and we're like, very logical. And then there's this spiritual element that comes with loss at times and sometimes it can be hard to lean into that, but I was doing yoga before this, as I do, and I was thinking about her and I was thinking about how, sometimes, when I'm doing therapy sessions, I really feel someone with us, like we're talking about someone who's sessions. I really feel someone with us Like we're talking about someone who's passed and I really feel them, and so I just wanted to like open the door to that, so like having her here with us. Like my producer sometimes comes on. She's not here today, but she'll be in the background on the Zoom and you don't see her face and you don't hear her voice, but she's just sort of there. You know, while we're at it, we can invite Matt too, we can invite whoever, but just to like keep that presence with us and that presence alive. Does that work for you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It does, and this is where you've helped me. You know I struggle with how do I connect or how do I feel her presence, and that I still have a lot of work to do. So I appreciate you saying that and it encourages me to be a little more open to that.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, yeah. So I want to hear your story, Carolina's story. How did she come to be in your world? Did you always want a family? How did you feel about having a daughter? I know as a podcast host, I'm not supposed to ask you 12 questions at the same time, but just let us know what. What was that? How did she come into your life?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I knew I always, like you, I have two brothers, so growing up having siblings was just my norm, and so I knew I wanted to have a family, and my husband felt the same when he got married. He also came from three kids growing up together, and so it was just kind of assumed that that's what we would do. But it certainly was. You know, that moment you see that positive pregnancy test, it's like whoa, whoa, whoa.
Lisa Danylchuk:Maybe I wasn't quite ready.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:You know there's a fear that sets in. I was excited. I'm one of those miserable pregnant people. I was sick all the time so I wasn't excited. Really, yeah, the idea was exciting.
Lisa Danylchuk:What do you remember about her birth, her early years?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Her birth was easy, thank goodness. I felt like.
Lisa Danylchuk:I paid my dues pregnant and the early years were.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I mean, you know it changes your whole world, obviously, and I found it rather isolating I was young among my friends to have kids. I was 28. And you know, I'm used to just working and that's what I have to talk about, and I have friends who have similar things to talk about, and suddenly all I had to talk about was how I went to Target that day.
Lisa Danylchuk:Which is a huge accomplishment, by the way.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It is, but when you say it out loud it's like oh.
Lisa Danylchuk:Right. People are like okay if they're not in that world.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Right. So I mean I look back and of course I would do it all again, but those were hard early years. Carolee was easy enough, but I didn't. I'm not a baby mom. I needed her to grow up a little bit and then I was better.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, yeah. And what was she like? What personality did you see emerging? What were some of the fun moments with her as she started to get older?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:She was always funny, kind of silly, happy. I mean I'm sure I thought she was difficult at the time, but no, the minute my middle my son was born. You know. She took him under her wing and she was the boss and he looked up to her and she exploited that to the best of her abilities and she bounced around. She wanted to do what her friends were doing.
Lisa Danylchuk:What are some of the things that have become signs of hurt to you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Some of them are I don't think generic is the right word but things like rainbows and bright colors, which are not obviously unique just to her. But she was in a phase where she was colors and patterns. You know, my husband used to say she dresses pattern on pattern on pattern. When I see, especially if I see, another kid around the same age dressed like that, it makes me kind of chuckle to myself remembering that. You know that parent probably looked at their child and said here we go, here we go today.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah, candy, everyone seems to associate her with sweets and candy. She loved it, was proud of her obsession flaunted it. I have these TikTok videos of her now in her account and so many of them are her like sneaking candy around the house or hiding wrappers, and it's funny.
Lisa Danylchuk:Did you ever find those wrappers?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yes, yes, when she was live, yes, I found stashes of them. And then even that last, maybe up to a year after she died, I found wrappers here and there, and it was funny.
Lisa Danylchuk:Wow, that must have been funny but also a little bit hard, like a little moment of connection to her.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:For sure yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:I ask these questions because I know a big part of you continuing to talk about what you went through, which is obviously like one of the most difficult things anyone can go through, is like keeping her, her spirit, alive and keeping her with us and remembering some of those things that might seem funny or just daily. You know daily things eating candy, wearing bright colors. For both of us, we experienced a loss that happened really quickly and I know you were on a trip in Uganda and, honestly, like I've just never. I think I learned about what happened from your Facebook post, which said something to the effect of this is never supposed to happen or it was never supposed to be this way, which I can totally relate to. Do you want to tell the story of what happened when you lost her, or does that feel like, oh, I've gone through that so many times or it might be too painful?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:No, I can can talk about it. I think it's hard and emotional, but I always feel a catharsis to it after, like it's not her only story, but it's still her story. Yeah, and it's part of it.
Lisa Danylchuk:I mean, I'd love to hear it, just as your friend, if you want to share yeah, we'd probably been in Uganda four days, I think.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:At that point everyone was fine. You've traveled a lot Like we were jet lagged and probably dehydrated and we celebrated. She had the best last day. We didn't know that at the time, but they threw a birthday party for her at the lodge that evening. And the next day we got on a small flight to go more remote and she was complaining of a headache and we were trying to pack up and I'm sure I was snippy, you know, like just drink some water. She wouldn't drink water, but it was nothing crazy. We got on the flight and we got to the lodge.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Julian, my middle, had eaten something funky. That didn't agree with him, so he wanted to lie down and she said she did too. And we were eating lunch. My dad and my brother and his girlfriend were there and my youngest was there and my husband came back and said she's throwing up, she's asking for you. So I was kind of like okay. I walked back to our room at this lodge and she was sick on the bed and she looked at me and she said mama, I don't want to die. And you know, as a parent, you know, I said of course you're not, let's move over to the other bed. We'll get you cleaned up, you'll be fine. And she looked at Julian and said Julian, I love you. And she was unconscious probably 10 minutes later.
Lisa Danylchuk:Wow.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:And so we got. The camp nurse was there, Camp arranged for a ride to the hospital. They said we're going to go to the farther one, it's better, and we spent the next 14 hours there. She never regained consciousness, but we were. You don't think of the worst. You can't imagine. It was like it's going to be fine.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:But it was just a lot with Medivac and we had approval to go to Nairobi with her and I think we just thought and hoped like, okay, that's going to happen, we're going to go to a bigger hospital and it's going to be fine. My brother's girlfriend, liz, stayed back at the camp with the boys. It was the middle of the night and my dad and brother were trying to work with the money back and going back and forth with the drivers. Suddenly I felt her heart rate in her chest and it was not normal. I yelled for the doctor and the next two hours were chest compressions and intubation and all the things that you don't ever want to see.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:And after a while it became clear that it wasn't going to. She wasn't going to make it. There were two doctors and I said is anything going to change? And she said how long till your brother and dad get here? And I said probably 20 minutes. They were in the car and we were texting and she said we can keep going till then. And I was just like if this, is it like, if it's not going to change, just stop pressing on her. And she said are you sure? And I said yeah, wow, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:It's just the most painful experience, and I mean, my mind goes to worst case scenario all the time oh my god, is she okay? Oh my god, is this going to happen? To fix this and make sure she's okay. At the same time, though, you're describing this like no, it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine like we're going to. We have to right because you have to, because there's no other option, like the only option is get you to the next care and get you better and get you better.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh I. I feel like there's a moment there of acceptance or surrender for you to say if it's not going to change, just let her be. What do you have a sense of what happened for you in that moment or what led you to that choice?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I knew Gibran had already realized it. I was hanging on so hard that I couldn't see it. You know, when you kind of balance out with a partner in any situation, one person's struggling, the other kind of buoys the opposite direction just to keep it even and I was so firm that it's okay, even though no, I mean, all the signs around me showed that it wasn't, but my brain couldn't even go there yeah just the way that doctor looked at me and said it won't make a difference.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I had to let her be so intense to watch chest compressions and it was was a lot, so I just said please stop pressing on her.
Lisa Danylchuk:I think of how we respond emotionally in those moments. I feel like I would just break. And what do I mean by that? Like your heartbreak, your body or everything breaks in half, or you're like crying, or like did you hug Gibran? Did you collapse on the floor? Do you remember, even after you realized like this might be it, this is it, yeah I don't think we hugged if we did it was, it was not right away yeah
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I remember I texted my brother and my dad because they were going to walk into it being done, just so they knew. And then I crawled into the bed with her and I yelled for a blanket and I sobbed and I called a handful of people that I, for me, I don't know I had to like scream it out there. And then I remember they said I had to get out of the room, they had to prep her for whatever they do and it was a remote hospital and so when you walk outside the door of the room, you walk to the outside. That was the pediatric wing and it was dark. It was three in the morning and there was like a dirt hill and there were all these eyes in the dark and it was all the women from the nearby.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I'm sure words spread quickly. That American Child was there and they probably heard. I'm sure they heard everything those last couple hours and they were all sniffling and one of them moved over. There was one bench and for me to sit there and it was in hindsight, it was so beautiful. But yeah, I did collapse on the dirt at one point I remember I just couldn't hold myself up. Yeah, I cried. I probably made really strange crying sounds.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:So the people there were sad with you were supportive you or present or witnessing what was happening.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:And we're offering some some sense of care or what they could.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:They were, they couldn't, they didn't speak English, we didn't speak, they just sat there for the next. It was probably two or three hours before an ambulance got there to to take her. Yeah, and they followed us to the ambulance and I remember when they shut the door and I turned around and they all put their right hand up these women. It was the most striking human thing maybe I've ever seen wow.
Lisa Danylchuk:How did that impact you in the moment emotionally? Did you feel like it helped or supported you at all?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I felt supported. I was swirling in my mind. I noted it. I don't think I could take it in as much as I could after, when I realized how remarkable it was that they were there in the middle of the night. They didn't know us, but they were feeling for us. Yeah, it's quite meaningful to me now.
Lisa Danylchuk:What has sustained you in facing this loss? You mentioned calling people right away, just needing to shout out what was happening those first few minutes, hours, days. There's so much shock. What helped you then, and what's helped in the years that have passed since then?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It's probably the same, just in a different way. Just people showing up showing us that they were thinking about Carolina it wasn't about not even the boys yet and Giovanna myself, it was just think of her. Just the logistics of bringing someone back internationally is daunting and piled on. Why you're doing it? It was a lot that part's blurry, but a Facebook page was put up right away and I spent, you know, the dark hours, sleepless hours of the night reading these messages and some people I knew, and some people I didn't at all, and they were thinking of Carolina and that helped so much. And since then, of course, it's less intense, right Anytime after someone passes, as time marches on, but people like you who just remind me that she's not forgotten. I think what I panicked with, especially soon after she died, was that how, what if she's forgotten? What if people don't remember after this, after the funeral is over, after the first year is over? But they haven't. People continue to remind me and that's for me, a really big bit of peace.
Lisa Danylchuk:I know I was even thinking when you were talking about the birthday party she had. She loved her birthday, right Loved, and I share that.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:You are one of those people, aren't you? Oh yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love my birthday. It went from birthday to birth week to birthday month, birthday month.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Oh yeah, yeah, she was trending towards. She would have been that.
Lisa Danylchuk:She was trending right.
Lisa Danylchuk:I feel this kindred spirit with her there like hey, I see you and I think of her for at least the latter half of December, right, because there's this joyous birthday and then there's a day that she passed so close together and I imagine, especially with the holidays right there, that's just wrecking emotionally for you, like so much, so much right there packed into a short period of time. I'm always thinking of her during that time and the joy of the birthday and the celebrating, and then you know, oh, how old would she be right now, right, and then also just the recognition of what people leave behind, the impact of all the relationships and all maybe the hopes or the dreams or the other things. At UCLA, right, interpersonal communication studies, and you know we had studied Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's stages of grief.
Lisa Danylchuk:I remember just being like F, all these pamphlets that are like so organized and left brain so linear, like first there's this and I do think there's something that shifts between the first few days or weeks and the first few months or the first year. But it was just. I mean, I described it like if my life before this were a piece, were a puzzle and I were piecing it together. Someone just took the puzzle pieces, soak them up in like a smoothie, threw them in the blender and then poured it out on the table and I got to make something out of it.
Lisa Danylchuk:There wasn't like, oh, I'm so sad. I mean, of course I was sad, oh I'm angry, of course I was, but like it didn't. For me it didn't come through like shock, denial, anger, acceptance. It was just a big mix. I think that in and of itself was challenging right, like I had never been through something like that before. So it was just like how do I even? I think that's why yoga is so good for me, it was just like breathe and notice. Whatever notice, however it is, you don't even have to label it. So what was it like initially? And how would you describe it emotionally a few years on?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Same as you. There were no stages of grief, no one tried to hand me a pamphlet, thank goodness. But there was certainly a period of shock. Even though you knew, your brain knew what had happened, you couldn't even really understand it. I think that swirl of I never felt angry, but just confused and sadness that first year I think for most it's just kind of unrelenting and you don't know when or where you're going to feel, brushed down by whatever emotion. I found that very unstable feeling in that first year. Since then the waves are smaller. Usually they're predictable. You know obvious days like the anniversary, and you know there's a bittersweet to her birthday or family occasions where you know that person should be there. There's still moments that suddenly trip me up. Now I know you just have to sit in it and it will pass and you'll put yourself back together again.
Lisa Danylchuk:Like waves really. I relate to that a lot and I remember just the weight of the first year, almost it feeling constant at first and then having little moments of maybe relief and the little moments getting longer and then it's starting to feel more like, oh, there's these chunks of grief coming through and the rest of my there's something else, that I'm standing on, and that those waves are coming through rather than just being tossed around in the current as you go. It's like, oh, okay, now this is a wave and this is a wave, and then, further on, getting to the sense of really knowing, almost expecting it and being able to ride it for the longest time.
Lisa Danylchuk:Right around the anniversary of his death, which was in July, like a day or two before, I would just be like so off emotionally and I would maybe have planned to take the anniversary day off. I might've planned to go for a walk or, you know do something that made me feel a little bit more connected to him or was a you know dedication or an offering, but it would usually be a few days before and I'd be like what is happening? It always shocked me how much your body knows these things at such a deep level and your psyche is just so attuned, even if waking, conscious, wise, you're like I'm just doing this today, right? Did you experience that too, those moments where you like don't know, you didn't see it coming and it just kind of waves over you still?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I still do, and it's that build up right. You were saying like a few days before the week before. That's the worst part. Yeah, it's interesting to me because the worst already happened, so that initially it felt like maybe she died again on that day. But there's still some sort that's the worst part. Yeah, it's interesting to me because the worst already happened, so initially it felt like maybe she died again on that day, but there's still some sort of anxiety approaching, especially that day and even a month before my sleep starts getting really funky. I can't control it, I just wait for it to be done.
Lisa Danylchuk:These things are big and as much as you love someone is, as much as it feels painful when they're gone, and so for anyone listening who's going through this, you're not alone. When it's messy and it can be really gnarly emotionally in a way that I don't think we can really capture in words, but I do think it helps to know that there are other people out here and it's not something wrong with you to grieve in this way. In fact, it's like really normal and helpful to be able to connect with it and process it in the way that works best for you.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Absolutely, I think, sharing and being open and being reminded, even though everyone's story is unique, obviously because their relationship is unique, I have found it so helpful to be. I don't know how else I can be other than open, but that's, it's helpful.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, and you said that even when I asked you do you want to talk about this on the podcast? You're like it seems to be helpful to stay open and share, and I think there's connection on the other side of it seems to be helpful to stay open and share, and I think there's connection on the other side of that too. Right, like absolutely yeah. So we talked a little bit about this. How have your thoughts or beliefs changed since December of 2019? Like, what has shifted in you and the way you think, feel and the way you are in the world?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:shifted in you and the way you think, feel and the way you are in the world. I don't know if my husband and kids would say the same, but I think I've let go of a lot. I'm one of those who I like control. I like managing and having my ducks in a row and we all know that you can't always have your ducks in a row but this this pulled everything out from underneath me. I couldn't control it and I think it has softened. I still like to control things and I still like ducks in a row, but I think I've let go of a lot of the deeper need for control. I think I'm more open to other people and just enjoying being present, and that's probably my biggest shift being more present, more picky about where I choose to be present, maybe but, really being present, being present for my boys has been a big one.
Lisa Danylchuk:And that perspective with loss is really powerful of like. None of this is guaranteed and for me that it helps with just being present with life.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It does, and there's still, obviously, all those moments that are so frustrating and irritating, but I now catch myself maybe remembering that this will pass and, like you said, nothing is promised. It is a good, broader perspective than I had before.
Lisa Danylchuk:And you also mentioned being more intentional about where you're present, right Like, where is your attention and is this really that important? Do I need to be renting out mental space in my brain for this little hiccup about work or this technology, frustration or whatever else is happening, so it can kind of recenter you that way too.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Absolutely.
Lisa Danylchuk:And in terms of spirituality, where do you land with that? Is it still a challenge?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It's still a challenge. I'm not religious and even if I were, I joined a grief group for a couple of years because of COVID. But there was one couple in there and they were very religious and this shattered that for them, because they're like yeah we kind of know where she is, but how could this happen?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:And so I don't know that. That would give me an obvious bit of assurance that she's somewhere. But I believe she's somewhere. I don't believe that you just disappear, but I don't know where she is and I don't know how to find her. Not yet, I'm trying.
Lisa Danylchuk:And there are these little moments like I think you messaged me when you were in Kauai and there was a rainbow and a hummingbird or something like this moments that you just feel.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:And it sounds so hokey, but but I felt it.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, and that's the part that I feel is important to trust.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah, you, you actually told me that I think it was about a bush. This was years ago. Yes, that lit up for you, yes, and you were using that as an example to coach me, like no one's going to tell you otherwise, like no one can tell you that that was or was not Matt, and that helps me to remember, to open myself up in those moments, that maybe, maybe, it can be her.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, oh, I love that you remember the bush too. I remember the bush, I remember the bush, and this was 20 years ago, solid, more, oh, wow. I was driving on Montana from Brentwood towards Santa Monica, going to yoga, as we do, and there's a curve in the road and I think it's a golf course that you're curving along the edge of yeah, there is.
Lisa Danylchuk:And right in front of you I don't know if it's still there there was a bush and there were some flowers on it. Don't know if it's still there. There was a bush and there were some flowers on it. They were pink and blooming and, for whatever reason, they were like vibrant alive, not so much I mean visually, but there was just a aura or a feeling and I just felt like that's my brother, like it's confusing to say he's not here in body, but I felt such a vibe from it and I had this moment of like, okay, like I. I don't get that, but sure Come.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:So you accepted it right away.
Lisa Danylchuk:Bush or be the thing that I'm driving towards, that I'll turn and drive around, but just anything like you're going to be here with me, great. And the thing I love about some of those moments is that I wasn't looking for it in the moment, because sometimes people are like, oh you poor sad, grieving person, you're just making stuff up because you're so attached. Maybe that's just some internalized criticism, but I feel like sometimes people kind of come from that really logical place where they're like, oh, you don't know. Like, oh, I don't know, but I'm choosing to trust that this means something and I can't explain it. Some of them are a little more stark.
Lisa Danylchuk:Or you share the story of like a hummingbird and a rainbow and people are like, oh, they get that. Those are common symbols, right? I had a hawk that followed me. I was moving from Seattle, which is where I lived, when he passed back down to California. I was driving down the Oregon coast and I swear like from Portland out to the coast and down there was this bird and I had the old Acura Integra. I remember that car.
Lisa Danylchuk:You remember that car? I do. You've been in that car and this bird was following my car for miles, like from Portland, somewhere between Portland and the coast, and then south Miles like hours. I would look up oh it's still there. Oh, it's still there. How do I explain this? This is the most random thing Someone might be like. There was some piece of prey stuck to the top of your car and it was chasing it or whatever, but it just felt like a sign. It just felt like something. It just felt like a visit. For me. It was really important to not get stuck in my head about it and just felt like something. It just felt like a visit for me. It was really important to not get stuck in my head about it and just be like okay, hi, and then to even speak out loud whatever I might want to say at the moment. Hey, matt, I'm moving from Seattle back down.
Lisa Danylchuk:I have a couple more classes to take at UCLA. I miss you. Whatever. To speak it out loud sometimes helped too. Do you ever have a chance to do that? To like speak out loud or write. Does that happen for you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I do. Actually, I've not been writing so much this year. We're in a temporary rental while we redo our house and I used to only write to her in Carolina's room. I would go sit there with my journal and write to her. I don't have a space for her right now, so I have not been writing as much, but I'll talk to her somehow I can do that. So I must in those moments at least hope enough that she can hear me.
Lisa Danylchuk:And what would you say to her right now if she were on a call?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Oh, I would start crying yeah, yeah, I would just tell her I miss her. I think that's all I could get out so far.
Lisa Danylchuk:I think one of the hardest things is like that's it, that's the beginning, middle end of like that manifestation of this spirit, this person.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah, it's hard not to think about all the things they don't get to do.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Matt doesn't get to meet Isabella. I know Helena doesn't get to grow up. We doesn't get to meet Isabella. I know Carolina doesn't get to grow up, we don't get to figure out. What would she do, what would she be like? I think those are the harder thoughts 100%. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:There might be parents who are a week out, a month out, a year out or 20 years out listening to this. Yeah, what would you say to other parents who've lost a child?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:20 years out listening to this, what would you say to other parents who've lost a child? I know for me not that I didn't want to hear anything, but I couldn't take in. The grief will morph, it will be different, it will be easier. I didn't want to hear that. I didn't want to sit in my grief forever. Like you said, at one year you realize I don't want my life to be dominated by losing Matt. You knew I didn't want that. Realize I don't want my life to be dominated by losing Matt.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:You knew I didn't want that. I don't want my life defined by this loss. It's now part of my story but it's not going to run my life. But I think I thought if I take in that, the grief will change, it will morph, it'll be farther away from the days when Carolina was here. I didn't want that, even though I didn't want to exist in that relentless wave. Someone said once something to the effect of, if you look at it, not in a morbid way but now you're living and getting closer to the day when you'll be with her again. Whatever that means was a better spin on it for me.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:The only thing I could tell someone that I would have been able to take in was that you will feel joy again.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Not that I wasn't happy in moments, but like actual joy. And I remember when I felt it for the first time because it caught me and I kind of stopped for a minute and it was the silliest reason you'll laugh, but but I felt it and I knew it was pure and it was proof to me like this will it won't be okay, but it will be okay.
Lisa Danylchuk:What was it?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It must've been just over a year ago after Carolina died, so maybe it was spring of 21 and UCLA basketball was I don't know if they were in March madness or approaching it, but they had the game and we had it on me and it was COVID. Everyone was home anyway and it was exciting and you know we used to go like we would camp out for those games, so it was something that I knew.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I used to enjoy and I got so caught up into the game and kind of like yelled and clapped whatever good thing had happened, and that was the moment I immediately stopped because it felt so foreign.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:But it felt foreign in a good way, Like oh yeah, I will feel this again.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:But it was. It was very strange and silly.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it like really drew you in and there's so many associations with that from the past. And then all of a, sudden.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Where is that coming from? Yeah, and that was nice to feel.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love that that it was a basketball game.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Oh my gosh.
Lisa Danylchuk:I don't know if you've ever met my friend from growing up. She's my best friend my whole life, katrina, we call each other Weenie. She caught one time time we were on the phone. It was maybe a year ish out and I don't know what it was, but I laughed and she went oh, weenie, you laughed.
Lisa Danylchuk:I haven't heard you laugh in so long and I was like oh right, like wow, wow, like I didn't notice it so much, but she, she did. And then when she reflected that, I was like, yeah, it's been rough, right, like you haven't heard me laugh in a year, but it does come back right, it does come back. Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It does come back if you allow it to, and and I want it. I want it to um, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:And I can just imagine Carolina, like right by your side, like go, go, go. She probably watched some UCLA basketball with you.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I may have dragged her to Vegas a couple of times for March. Madness, yes, you did. I love that the two of us went. She didn't really care, but I made her go.
Lisa Danylchuk:She's like yay trip with mama.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Sounds great. We had fun right.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, that's amazing. You mentioned earlier a grief group. Would you recommend that to folks? I know it's so individual, but are there any resources or places?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:or websites or things that helped you navigate through. I joined the grief group. Jabron came with me the first time. He's like this is not for me, that was okay. We grieved on our own path. We didn't try to do it together. I don't even know if I liked it. I don't know if you like grief groups, but I don't know if I felt anything from it initially. But I knew I had work to do and I didn't know what it looked like and so I threw myself into. I'm going to do this grief group on my own. I wanted to do family grief therapy for the boys.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Covid hit just a few months later, so our options were limited. To have kids sit on a couch and stare at a computer screen and try to do art therapy doesn't work well. But I felt we all needed to do some sort of work at least the first year. And Gibran and I did grief therapy on our own. So it was a lot, but I just felt like I just need to see what sticks. I don't regret any of it. It was easy to do all that. Not easy, but it was COVID. We weren't going anywhere. So to have a few meetings a week online was fine. It was something to do.
Lisa Danylchuk:I think it's important, like you said, it's not like you're going to like it necessarily, but just finding what sticks.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah, my grief group ended up, but you just can't take in someone else's loss when you're so raw yourself, and so it took a while for me to actually feel like I could incorporate their stories and connect with them. Yeah, I'm glad I did it for me, just to be reminded that you're not alone. Even though your loss is unique, it's not just you. Yeah, I think it's important to try something. Yeah, just to dig in myself into a hole and throw a blanket over my head Like I wanted to live. I wanted to be present for myself, for my kids.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, so it was a conscious choice.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It was a conscious choice. I knew I couldn't do nothing.
Lisa Danylchuk:Did you ever try yoga? No, do nothing, did you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:ever try yoga. No, next time in LA we're going to go to a class.
Lisa Danylchuk:Okay, I've tried a couple of times and I'm probably pretty terrible at it, but I would be open to trying. Yeah, that was like the thing that stuck for me before that. I was doing so many things outdoors. All this stuff and outdoors is something that's really healing for me now, but at the time I was just like yoga, this is, it's doing something. Yeah, I can't explain it, but that led to this whole career trajectory of like trying to figure it out. Like why was that the thing for me and why is that the thing for some people? Like I do think that it's individual for everyone and it was.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it was interesting to me how powerful yoga was and then it was really interesting to learn all these reasons why later, like then, I got to geek out on it. Oh, my goodness, like there's an alpha theta response when you close your eyes and you lean back and you cover your eyes. Wow, how interesting. Just to speak to her and keep her here with us. What are some of your most treasured memories with Carolina? To speak to her and keep her here with us what are some of your most treasured memories with carolina?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:probably those vegas trips were a couple that stand out to me. It was just fun, it was just time us yeah she could do anything and we'd go.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I didn't have to say no to anything. It was just her time with me and I enjoyed doing that with her and I think she enjoyed it with me. Planning her birthday parties was miserable at the time but always ended up fun. She always had to do something completely different and I miss that. I think, around her birthday, just listening to months of planning and ideas. But I still have those journals and pages that she wrote, so it's nice to look back on those. I could have sent her notes over to you if she were here.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh, totally. I would have been the most excited little auntie on the side being like, okay, and then we can add this Are there any fireworks yet? And how will you continue to honor Carolina? And how?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:will you continue to honor Carolina? Just for me, even little things the last years I've bought. Carolina was in Girl Scouts, and so we buy a ton of boxes from her troop One of her closest girlfriends is still in it and we give them to the educators and staff at school that have been so amazing to us these past years, and all of Carolina's old teachers. So that helps each year and it helps me be reminded once again that she's she's remembered, and not on the daily by most people, but the minute they get it their faces light up and I have a sticker that I put on it. So that was fun.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:My dad has a nonprofit in Sri Lanka and they each year do a donation to needy children with a picture of Carolina on it. All these small things put together and then being in touch with her friends is my heart healer. They are amazing girls. They keep me involved in their life and it helps me feel like Carolina still can be here. If I watch them, I don't know what she would be like, but I know I can't have a good guess based on how they are.
Lisa Danylchuk:And they're still feeling really connected to her too, right.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:They are. They've gone their separate ways. They're in high school now but, they come together. We had dinner the other night and I take them out for Carolina's birthday for lunch and they come together and they have this bond of this experience and this friend and it's really sweet. I hope for all the years to come that they can always circle back if given the opportunity.
Lisa Danylchuk:Didn't you have a square dedicated to her name?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yes, One of her girlfriend's dad filed a petition to have the square. It's the intersection outside of our elementary school named the Carolina Madrid Diab Square. He didn't tell us because he didn't know if it would be approved. When it was, he told them to hold and ask our permission. And it's, you know, she's not buried, she's cremated, so we don't have a place to go visit her. Yeah, she cremated, so we don't have a place to go visit her. Yeah, or we wouldn't have had. And this square, on all four corners there's a sign with her name and it's big and we decorate it every year on the 24th on her birthday, and her friends show up and some people in the community now show up and we've got donuts and coffee and it's. It is a place I can bring her flowers there yeah, that's right, and I do often yeah what a thoughtful gesture it was amazing.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I didn't realize the importance of having a place, yeah, to go visit her and now I do.
Lisa Danylchuk:I haven't been there. So, yeah, we're on our way to yoga. After yoga, we'll go sit there. I think after then we have more time we can sit, bring flowers.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Is Matt buried or cremated?
Lisa Danylchuk:He's cremated and we never spread it. I think early on we were trying to coordinate and trying to choose like the perfect spot.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Right.
Lisa Danylchuk:And we all had a little bit different ideas. I was like how about the top of this mountain? We climbed together and then my parents thought, well, what about this field where we picnicked? It didn't feel like we disagreed, it just felt like we didn't land on something. That was like yeah, that sounds great. Do you still have the ashes or did you spread them?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:We didn't spread them. We have them. It was. You know she was 11. So it wasn't like she loved sailing, or you know that she would belong in the ocean, or if she belongs here with us.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:It was never a talk to put her anywhere or spread her ashes or bury her, so we commissioned a Japanese artist to create a piece of glass for her that looks like a whimsical cookie jar in a way.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:And it's made of her favorite colors that she had at the time.
Lisa Danylchuk:And you know, the cookie, a kind of a nod to her sweet tooth, yep, and so it's a piece of glass that if you didn't know, you wouldn't think of it as an urn, but it's so pretty to us that's beautiful, I love it but I too I don't feel a connection to the ashes yeah, it's interesting how we feel connections to different things or places, sometimes more, given everything you've been through in the last five years and in life, it would be easy for someone to be like, oh, it's really hard to find hope. But, like you said, you made a conscious choice to live. I'm wondering what brings you hope in life?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:you made a conscious choice to live. I'm wondering what brings you hope in life? Probably my boys, Like I.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I've said this before to others, but I want them to have just as magical a life. Yeah, Someone said it to me after Carolina died. Like you know, it looks like she had a pretty magical life. Just looking through her pictures and hearing people's stories at her funeral and it's stuck with me and it was like she did. She had a wonderful life, and so I want that so much for them and I don't want my life. I'm not one of those parents that I'm only involved in them. I need my own things and my own happiness and my own passions. But I do feel passionate about making sure they also know that they will have a wonderful life or they can have a wonderful life, and that they can choose that yeah and they are.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:So that gives me hope, knowing that hopefully they are, whether they're modeling my husband and myself, or if they're just feeling that and knowing that they too will feel joy and happiness again and they are and they have makes me happy.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, definitely, and it happens often that folks come on this podcast and people want to reach out to them. Are you on social media or is there anywhere you'd want people to connect with you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:I'm terrible with social media, other than I do have Facebook, but I only became active because of Carolina's page. It does cause me to check because I do get messages, sometimes from people who you know, friends of a friend or some degree of separation, and I will probably never meet them, but they might suddenly send me a message. So I do make a point of checking and I always respond because it is thoughtful and, carolina, you know, crossing someone else's life that she wouldn't have normally and someone told me about it, I think is really cool.
Lisa Danylchuk:Have you had the experience of like getting a picture that you hadn't seen before it still happens.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Her page has tons and people will send me but they still pop up. You know, like suddenly your phone wants to show you a picture and it doesn't even line up to the day, but someone will send it or I'll see it and forgot that I ever had it and I really enjoy that.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, that's awesome, yeah, well, cheers to your daughter, carolina Madrid Dieb.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, and her magical life, Thank you. And thank you for sharing some of the up, the down, the around, the swirl of it. I know you're not alone. I know no one's alone in this, even though it is our own path to figure out and walk. Hopefully that connection and I know you shared after the funeral to that love that shows up is enough to keep us open enough to move forward and keep showing up for the other magical lives that we're up to.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yeah. No, thank you. I mean thank you from the beginning. I wish this wasn't the reason we reconnected as much as we have, but you've guided me so much and really buoyed me so many times.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh, I'm happy to continue to.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Yes please.
Lisa Danylchuk:You got my number. I do, and I'm awake at 3am these days, so anytime, any day, you got it. Thank you, Anna.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab:Thank you so much, Lisa. This was, this was amazing.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh good, oh Anna. Thank you so much, lisa. This was amazing. Oh good, oh God. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to go to howwecanhealcom to sign up for email updates. You'll also find additional trainings, tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, spotify, audible or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the shows you love the most with all your friends. Visit howwecanhealcom forward slash podcast to share your thoughts and ideas for the show. I love hearing from you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Before we wrap up for today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions. It's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today, everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, shout out to you for taking care of the babe and the fur babies while I record. Last but never least, I'd like to give a shout out to my big brother, matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you.