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How We Can Heal
A podcast to share deep conversations about How We Can Heal from life’s toughest circumstances.
How We Can Heal
Finding Healing–and Gobi–on the Trail with Ultra Marathon Runner Dion Leonard
Dion Leonard's life changed forever when a small dog joined him for 80 miles of a grueling 155-mile ultra-marathon across the Gobi Desert in China. Their story of connection, separation, and eventual reunion became a New York Times bestseller, but behind this heartwarming tale lies an equally powerful journey of personal healing.
Before becoming a world-class endurance athlete, Dion was a pack-a-day smoker who couldn't run around the block. His transformation began with a drunken bet about a half marathon, fueled by the same determination that would later help him complete some of the world's most challenging races, including the Triple Crown of 200s and Badwater 135.
Throughout our conversation, Dion speaks candidly about using ultra running as a mechanism to process his difficult childhood. Running became a space where anger could transform into achievement, where painful memories could be worked through with each mile. For years, he approached races with a punishing intensity, finding release at finish lines rather than enjoyment in the journey.
The most profound shift came when Dion faced a pivotal choice during that fateful race in China – continue pursuing the lead or turn back to help a small stray dog cross a water obstacle. His decision to choose connection over competition opened an unexpected chapter that would test his resilience in new ways, especially during the six-week search for Gobi after she went missing in a city of 3.5 million people.
Whether you're drawn to stories of human-animal bonds, fascinated by endurance sports, or seeking inspiration for your own healing journey, Dion's experiences remind us that transformation often begins with a single step – or as he would say in his distinctly Australian way, simply "having a go."
W elcome back to the How We Can Heal Podcast! Today, I'm excited to welcome Dion Leonard to the show. Dion is an Australian endurance athlete and ultra marathon runner, as well as author of the New York Times bestselling book Finding Gobi, the memoir of his experience meeting Gobi, a small dog who joined him running almost 80 miles on a 155-mile race across the Gobi Desert in China. Today we talk about the motivation behind these endurance events, the healing we can find along the way, and life lessons that we take from our time with ourselves and others out on the trail. Dion shares how running led him to process his difficult childhood and the impacts it had on him, along with what sparked him to change his lifestyle and habits, to go from not being able to run down the block to running hundreds of miles across the world's toughest landscapes. Whether running hundreds of miles sounds ridiculous, fun, or horrifying to you, I think you'll relate to Dion's story and take inspiration from his life's journey, his relationship with Gobi and the reflections he shares with us today. There's wisdom, humor and heart in it all, so please join me in welcoming Dion Leonard to the show.
Lisa Danylchuk:Awesome, well, Dion, welcome to the How We Can Heal Podcast, I'm so
Lisa Danylchuk:Funny story about how I found out about your book Finding Gobi. So my grandmother lived to be over. Let's see, she was almost 105 when she passed in 2020. She lived in Shirley, Long Island, and her neighbor, Vinny who I feel like I can only say I don't know if I can really do the New York accent well, but he has that classic Long Island accent apparently told my dad about your book. My dad knows that my partner and I met ultra running. We're ultra runners. So he's like, oh, Vinny told me about this book, about this dog who followed this guy through the desert. So then I ended up getting the book as a Christmas gift and read it within a few days, was, of course, fell in love like everyone does, shared it with my partner and just a little shout out to Vinny across the street from my grandma back in the day sharing that information. And I don't know. I'm gonna have to ask Vinny where he heard about you.
Dion Leonard:Well, thanks for having me on the show and thanks to Vinny as well for recommending the book to you, and that's what we found. You know, the book's got this continual journey on its own because of word of mouth and recommendations, and there's so many great elements to the Finding Gobi book. Whether you're an ultramarathon runner or a dog lover, you just love a good story that has lots of drama and mystery and intrigue in it. It really is a book for everyone to be able to read as well. So I'm really proud of that and I really love hearing stories as to how people have connected with Gobi's story as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, I love it and I do have you said it's a book for everyone. I literally have the book here that my dad gave me and that Alex read, and then I have the kid's book for my daughter. There's like an in-between one, I think, for, I don't know, maybe fifth graders or something.
Dion Leonard:Yeah, chapter book, which is huge across schools in the United States and we visit schools throughout the US and at the moment we're on the West Coast, but, yeah, we've spent some time on the East Coast as well and, yeah, love sharing the story, reading the picture book, sharing the chapter book at schools and, yeah, they get to see Gobi as well, so it's a great presentation which they enjoy.
Lisa Danylchuk:Isn't it amazing what can happen when you decide to put on your shoes, sign up for a race, do something crazy that you're not really sure if you can do?
Dion Leonard:Yeah, and it doesn't matter what element of the race is right, like whether it's 5k or 250k or 500 miles, like the races are getting longer and ridiculous now and I think you know if you're pushing yourself at any of those sort of limits at any degree. I think that's pretty phenomenal and I get people sometimes saying to me oh, I just run 5k and it's like, well, that's awesome, you know. Good on you for doing that. And it doesn't mean just because I do longer races that I'm any better than you are. It's about our own individual journey and what we learned from that and how that affects us or changes us going forward as well
Lisa Danylchuk:100%, 100%
Lisa Danylchuk:So there's so many things we could talk about today I want to start with. You've told your story and your history so many times. I want to kind of start with where we are now and I'm curious what's happening for you in your ultra life? Do you have any events coming up that you're training for? What are you feeling really passionate about at this stage?
Dion Leonard:I'm in a weird sort of part of my life with the ultra running journey, I guess. Sometimes I think I'm more towards the end of it, of course, than the beginning, and that's really because I find myself feeling completed with a lot of the races that I always wanted to run. I've run races like Badwater 135 in Death Valley, california. I've run Western States, run the Grand Slam of hundreds, I've run the Triple Crown of 200s and ticked off many different adventures along the way that I always wanted to do. And the older now I've just turned 50 this year and the older or the last couple of years I guess I've had less desire to want to be out for those long adventures.
Dion Leonard:Nothing was really burning ambition-wise to push me to the finish line anymore until last year when I went out to do the Gobi 400 kilometer race, which is a 250 mile non-stop race across the Gobi. So you know, self-navigating, self-sufficient, self-reliant race, which really was the biggest challenge that I'd put myself through. Yes, I've run the 200 mile races in the US, but you have crew, you have checkpoints where they serve you quesadillas and burgers and hot dogs. There's a route that's marked. Of course it's still 200 miles, it's a long way. But this race really threw me out there and it really put me up against the limits as to whether I could finish the race. And that was exciting because I felt something still in the basement. Maybe there's something still left in me and I'm still trying to work out what's next. I'm hoping to go back to the Gobi Desert Race again in October, but I'm still trying to figure out what else I might do before t hen as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:So much I love, so much about what you're saying. I've always said to people who say, oh my God, you're running how far, and I don't do the multiple hundreds. I I signed up for one 100 mile race, met my partner Alex at it and that's been it. Like I've done a hundred Ks, 50 milers, 50 Ks you know multiple day stage races and things but you have to want it. I always tell people like Whoa, you ran that far, whatever the distances and whoever the person is, I'm like you. Just you have to want it.
Lisa Danylchuk:There has to be something in you that goes oh, maybe I could do that. I kind of want to see if I can do that. I kind of want to. What would that be like? You have to have a curiosity or a passion or something stirring internally. So I feel like you're speaking to that and being really honest with yourself, not just, oh well, I did this, so I have to do that. But ooh, 200 mile triple crown Ooh, that sounds fun. Okay, I did that now. And there are some races where you want to go back. You just build a habit of it and then at a certain point you're like okay, maybe I don't need to do that one next year, this time. So I think being honest with yourself and your body and your soul of like what's just interesting for whatever nth reason that we can't fully describe, is really important in this.
Dion Leonard:I think it's a good place to get to in your own journey with everything, with life as well, and just being happy and feeling that you've completed some really great things and sort of remembering back on those achievements and events as well. Sometimes you can just finish a race and then move on to the next one and not even really take the time to think about how much work and effort there was for you to get to that finish line in the first place. And I actually just came back from Panama. I was there last week and on Saturday I started a 100 mile race. It was actually Friday night at six o'clock in the night and I was meant to do 100 miles.
Dion Leonard:I got to about the 100 kilometer mark was just over 100 k's and it was one o'clock in the afternoon and I'd been through the jungles of this Panamanian forest in knee-deep mud and water and pouring down rain and I'd had a great adventure. But I'd also had enough and I got to the 100 kilometer point and I was like I'm gonna finish here. There was a small town there. It was uh, it was a great point to get out and I was like really happy with it.
Dion Leonard:It's like I mean, I did 100 kilometers in this amazing environment that you'd never in a million years go and see the jungle that I just saw. There's no way, as a tourist, you'd ever find it, you know. But I was happy with that. It was like I think you can flip things around, is I guess what I'm trying to say is I just ran 65 miles. Yes, what a great training run and I had fun doing it. And instead of thinking, oh, I didn't finish the hundred mile race that I set out to do, it's like that's fine, it's not my A race, it's not the biggest thing in the world. I'm building towards going back to the Gobi and running that better than I ran last year and I'm in a really good place.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love this too. I've had that experience. So Alex and I Alex my partner we met at Rio de Lago at mile 37. He washed my feet it's a fun story and I was like I wonder if I'll ever see that guy again. Here we are 10 years later with a kid and two dogs.
Lisa Danylchuk:So, anyhow, we ran a race together maybe a year into our relationship Castle Peak, 100k out here in California in the Lake Tahoe Mountains, and I had really been curious about that race. The first year they had it I almost signed up, something got in the way. And then it was maybe two years later and we're out there on the trail, we start holding hands. People are laughing at us. That's not going to last. You're not going to hold hands for a hundred K. Anyway, we ran together the whole race. We had been doing a lot of, we were training and doing a lot of stuff together that summer and maybe 20 miles in I'm like, oh, I've been trying not to say anything, but it's really hard Cause we're just running next to each other and it kind of, to be honest, I was like you know, babe, I don't know why, I'm just not really feeling it today, like maybe you want to go ahead, or I'm just, I don't know, there's something, something about it, like. And he's like, oh my God, me too. I didn't want to say anything Cause I didn't want to pull you down.
Lisa Danylchuk:And so we're at the top of this climb and, you know, it's beautiful out and we're having fun. We see people, we know, but just our bodies probably still recovering from the 50 miler we had done right before that, but just like not feeling it. And so we're like you want to just like go down to the next aid station and go hang out by the lake for the rest of the day. We're like, yeah, that sounds great. We both perk up full of energy all of a sudden, right. So we run down the hill to the aid station and we clock in and we're like, okay, you know, we're actually going to finish here, just like you just said, we're going to finish here. And they're like, why, what's wrong? We're like we just we're not feeling it. Today. We're going to go sit by the lake and have a sandwich. Uh, I don't, I mean, I'm going to have to take your bib. Yeah, that's fine, we were just so okay with it. And, exactly the way you just described, we just ran a marathon. By the time we got to the bottom of the hill, we had done a marathon before noon on a random Saturday in the summer and it was pretty and we enjoyed it and we felt good and we wanted to go rest and swim instead and that felt totally good and normal to us.
Lisa Danylchuk:And there's sometimes a mindset because a lot of these experiences are framed as a competition and they are competitions and people win them that we think, well, you can't just have those days where you're like that's enough, and I think that does us a disservice because it can make us just go into this unnecessary suffering element and then we don't even.
Lisa Danylchuk:Then we kind of like trample out that spark of Ooh, I'm really excited about this, we over-train or we burn out, like all those things. So I love that this is a wisdom that's coming from you that you can share, especially with all the feats you've accomplished. Right To have that knowing and to have that clarity. I feel like not everyone gets that, or some people get it by going the opposite way and going, oops, maybe I should have just tapped out on that one.
Dion Leonard:Yeah, or I could have kept pushing and finished and, uh, you know, dragged myself through it and but it was a really good just point to say no, I'm, I'm complete with this.
Dion Leonard:This is fine. I've, I've had fun and there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just yeah, that's, that's my day done. Thanks, I'm going to do something else this afternoon too, so yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:Perfect. I hope this encourages people, not just in running but in other things. When you have that intuitive sense of completion, when you have that sense of I could keep going in this, but at what cost is this? Diminishing returns? Is this not really aligned with my goals? Like, okay, maybe make a different plan, then maybe do something that actually feels joyful or supportive or helpful. So you've run a ton of different races. I'm wondering and you mentioned that moment of integration like that space and time after, to actually reflect on what you've done to I don't know, maybe learn some lessons or just appreciate the fact that it happened right and let that settle into your cells. If you could repeat one race from beginning to end, that you've been through – for whatever reason, maybe it's just the joy of it– just the re-experiencing of it more than anything, what would it be?
Dion Leonard:Well, I think the two. There's three real big races that probably changed, had a step change in some part of way of my life. And the first, I think you know, is always the first time you run a hundred miles. You're like wow, that's incredible, it's a big push and it's a difficult achievement to get to the end of your first 100. And mine was touch and go. It was actually called the Mount Galagong 100.
Dion Leonard:It was held in China, in the province up in the northwest part of the country, and I was out there with my Finding Gobi story at the time, went to do this 100-mile race and, yeah, found myself about halfway through just contemplating whether I was going to get to the finish line or not. Pushed and, pushed and pushed, got, you know, down in the dumps about it, thought about quitting a bunch of times, but finally, like, managed to crawl over the finish line and feel that sense of achievement like nothing else before. And for me, finishing that first hundred really gave me this sort of belief that I could achieve more and it really sort of that sparked me doing a couple of more hundreds before. Then I wanted to try and push myself into the 200 mile range. And again, the probably next big race that I had from that moment was the Bigfoot 200 in Washington State, around Mount St Helens and the beautiful Cascade Mountains. And when I got to that race I didn't have crew, I didn't have paces and I wasn't sure if I could finish 200 miles.
Dion Leonard:I mean, when you go to do 200 miles you're even more unsure about yourself. It's a heck of a long way. I think there's 40-odd thousand feet of climbing in that race. It's single track, it's got blowdowns, you're through a brush that you're pushing through. It can be raining and cold, and that's not my bag. Like I, I love the heat, and the hotter there is the better. So when I signed up to the triple crown, I'd not only signed up to bigfoot but of course tahoe and moab 240 as well. So now I'm at bigfoot thinking can I do one, let alone three? And that was the big sort of push for me throughout the. I think it took me 80 hours to do that race and lots of blisters and lots of moments again like not knowing if I was going to make it to the finish line or not.
Dion Leonard:But pushing and believing in myself has really been a strength that I've had for since I was a young boy, left home at a very early age, had a difficult, depressive childhood, and grew up pretty quick, and so my drive and determination, or my wife calls it stubbornness, really was something that I used to my advantage at that race at Bigfoot, to cross the finish line, and again I just had this sort of mind-blowing moment where, holy heck, like what else can I achieve? And I'd found that in the 100 mile right, the first 100. This 200 mile race, though, was just like an explosion in my mind of what else is out there, and that led to me then, you know, going on to do many different adventures and races all around the world and believing in myself, not only in races but in life as well, and taking that positivity and feeling like my brain set and mindset had changed so much, I suddenly started thinking I can do this, I can do that, never not sort of saying no as much or not doubting yourself. So they were the two real big ones, and then the third race that I always think of, which was a bit of a changing moment for me was the Leadville 100 bike race and I did the Leadman series, which includes running a bunch of races in Leadville, Colorado, 10,000 feet of elevation. But also as part of the series you have to ride the 100 mile mountain bike race, which is known as the highest and hardest 100 mile mountain bike race in the United States. I don't ride mountain bikes like I'm not a bike rider in any aspect, and the running race is like part of it. They were difficult at altitude but of course as a runner I could tick a box on those and get them done.
Dion Leonard:The whole series really relied on me finishing this bike race to be able to, you know, go on, complete the ledman series. And during the first 50 miles of the race I find myself like at the back of the pack and up against the cutoffs and not knowing if I'm going to make it to the finish line at all, like I'm just too slow, I'm not good enough to be able to ride anywhere near with the rest of the riders there, and this was a moment like where I had to dig deep. Like nowhere else before, as an ultra runner, I'd found myself running at the front, competing, winning races, being in the top 10 for most of the races that I'd run. Now I'm at the other end of the field, really being humbled by not sort of. This isn't easy. Now you know this is. I'd found running the races had become easy and I'd probably become a bit stagnant with it. Now I'm like having to find something inside of me that I hadn't had to find for a very, very long time.
Dion Leonard:So I get through to about 80 miles of the bike race and I'm about an hour behind where I should be in terms of being able to finish the race. And I ask the people at the checkpoint do you think there's any chance at at all? I can get there? And they're like not really. Like you're gonna have to be like one of the front running riders, speed to be able to cover this last 20 miles distance off. And something in just side of me just sort of lit a fire in me, like them saying, no, there's no way you can do it, you've been too slow, like you're terrible at this. So I just thought I'm just gonna go for it and I pushed and rode this bike as fast as I could and on this single track I felt like at times, like the bike was out on the side of me and I'm just hanging on, you know
Lisa Danylchuk:Like a cartoon
Dion Leonard:Like a cartoon. Yeah and uh, I get to the last mile or so of the race and you go up and it's known as the boulevard and they line the streets especially for the you know, back of the pack people. And here I am like being pushed up the last part of the hill by all these other people there and they're yelling and screaming me on. There's like a minute to finish this last sort of part of the mile to to get to the end of the ledman series, basically. And uh, yeah, I'm doing yelled and screamed in and I've got like tears running down my face and I finished the race with 11 seconds.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh my gosh...
Dion Leonard:But it was done and it was like just the humbling experience of it all really was just incredible, you know, and even just telling that story it's the story I get the most sort of thoughts back of is just like wow, you know how incredible it was to do something that you can't do again, you know, and that was exciting for me as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:I get the chills just hearing that. That is so epic and so satisfying, right, because I've been at those races and I've been that person cheering at the end with people. And I've been there when they don't make it by three seconds. I've been there when they make the cutoff by seconds and it's a different experience. Both of them are very powerful and I always have this little soapbox I get on with my partner.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm always like why are we so arbitrary with seconds? Like the person that came in three seconds after should get just as much reward and dopamine for finishing. But you know, we, for whatever reason, there's a cutoff time, but something about that and the people at the at the 80 mile mark saying, oh, I don't know, there's no way. You're kind of like lit a fire and then here you are digging deeper and deeper than you have for hundreds and hundreds of miles of running to pull up from the back of the pack, have that different experience. I mean it's so, I'd imagine. In some ways it's humbling and in other ways it's so inspiring because you found that maybe I can do this question right.
Dion Leonard:It gave me some sort of more appreciation for going to the races that I had on after that as well and not taking it for granted as well, and maybe starting to experience more of the race for what it is like as a competitor in ultra running. You know previously like I would just go there. Winning was everything, with that real competitive driven mentality of like I wouldn't even look around or, you know, I would very quickly. So I think I started to maybe experience the mountains or the people and the why sort of changed, I guess, from that moment, which was neat for me as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:So powerful. And again because you signed up for something that seemed crazy, that you weren't sure you could do, because you got on a mountain bike the first time I sent, my friend got me to sign up for a Ironman. That never happened because of 2020, it got canceled in the pandemic but I ended up doing a half in preparation for it. And the first time I did a triathlon, I went to go to the transition area and I put on my hat to get on my bike, because I was just so used to like, oh, I have a hat in my drop bag and then I'm trying to put my helmet on on top. I was like this no, at least I was just laughing at myself.
Lisa Danylchuk:Literally that same race, Dion, I did not know how to change the gears in my bike. Yeah, I was doing an Olympic tri and I did not know how to change the gears of my bike and I did the whole bike race in the hardest gear. I was like walking my bike up the last bit of the hill. People are like why don't you just slow down, change your gear? I was like I don't know. So I think there's something so beautiful about that humbling, trying something new. You did that in this. You signed up for this huge challenge with something that was not in your wheelhouse. And then here you are telling me like this is one of the memories, this is one of the most powerful things that your mind goes back to that if you could redo it, re-experience it, you would right.
Dion Leonard:Yeah, although once was enough on the bike.
Lisa Danylchuk:You're not signing up for it again, but there's something special about it.
Lisa Danylchuk:You also mentioned something earlier that I want to pick up on this element of healing that can come through these types of events, and it's not ultra running or even biking for everyone. It's different things and different ways we can challenge ourselves and grow. But you talked about moving through the doubt or the question of like I can't do this, can I do this? I don't know, and reconciling that and then also contrasting that with your upbringing and things you went through that didn't feel good. So I'm wondering how you would describe, as you sit here today, how has your experiences in sports and ultra running, how have they felt healing for you?
Dion Leonard:Yeah, ultra running has been a really good part of my life for that purpose has been a really good part of my life for that purpose. I mean, I joke and I use the word joke loosely like I don't really like ultra running. It's maybe coming towards me now a little bit more. I'm appreciating, as I explained, but when I first started running these races and it was multi-stage races to begin with and then moving into the 100 mile races like I didn't really find an element of particular joy there until I'd finished the race. So you know, training I don't find fun.
Dion Leonard:Or going to the races and pushing and trying to be at the front trying to win them, like I didn't find that fun and I think some of that was because I was going to these races, using them to really push myself as hard as I can to really maybe in a way like I guess, belt myself up, like really punish myself for the things that had happened to me when I was younger and that sort of I was using, like my childhood and those early years of my life where life was really quite, you know, depressive and destructive and abusive as a way, like ultra running felt a little bit like I can beat myself up about this and push through at the same time and maybe use some of that negative energy to be at a level where I probably wouldn't have been without that, and so I really found myself digging deeper than I think I would have done without that experience as a child, and sometimes I'd be running these races, thinking my childhood was difficult, more difficult than this race, you know.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah yeah...
Dion Leonard:Probably pushing myself at a level that was too much.
Dion Leonard:But when I get to the finish line, I'd find myself feeling like a sense of achievement like I hadn't felt before. So whilst doing the race, I'd felt like really angry as a runner and like using all the memories and the thoughts and the people that would have done things to me over the years or said things to me like that would really make me an angry sort of runner. When I get to the finish line, I'd feel like maybe I've just inched a little bit further forward as to being able to forget about that stuff. Unfortunately, it was probably inching for quite a long time rather than a big step. Change of saying I still could never just get out of this mindset of life. It was a tough part of my life, from the age of 10 years old onwards into my early 20s. So, yeah, some of that has been fuel for the fire and ultra running has been a really big part of helping me transition through that. I mean, as the story with Gobi was as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, we can fall into the trap of physical health equals mental health, and I'm someone who fully believes in investing in the physiology as a platform. Right, because if you are hungry, you might get angry. Or if you haven't slept, other things feel hard, but we can think. Or if you haven't slept, other things feel hard but we can think oh, the person winning, they have it all figured out, or that means healthy, and I think sometimes we're using fuel for patterns that aren't actually healthy in order to win, and I don't know if that's what's happening for you. Makes me think of it when you describe that.
Lisa Danylchuk:But I also think about how, for me personally, I can be really competitive but I'm not in running because I just I'm like this is the weekend I paid for this. I'm a solid mid packer. I don't really look at my stats. I used to not even wear a garment. My partner got me into wearing his old garment now, so that happens, but I don't want to track it. I just want to go out and have fun and I've always loved.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm a therapist, right, like the emotional processing of it. I'm just out on the trail, I'm thinking about stuff. I remember something that's annoying or sticky, or there's shame or there's anger and I can be like or or breathe it out or take some time to just let it sort of cycle through me and my body. And I find that running maybe because it's this meditative back and forth, right foot, left, foot in, breath, out, breath can help us just process stuff right, just like going for a walk for some years go for a walk in nature and there's all these research studies that that's so good for us. So one of the things I hear is this like slow inching of processing the negativity and the things that you've been through and the abuse and sometimes we, especially with anger, which sometimes we call a negative emotion we need to be able to have space where we can move through it constructively. So I hear this space I mean a lot of space in the Gobi Desert, right, where you can be with whatever's coming up, whatever memory happens to come to mind, for whatever reason, whatever person, whatever they said. You can notice your reactions to that.
Lisa Danylchuk:If you're angry, especially like those more activating memories, they can give us energy and fuel and we can run through it and at a certain point like that same one's not coming up anymore, right, something else and at a certain point, like that same one's not coming up anymore, right, something else, and so you just inching through so that I think is actually really healthy, right, and to then get to the finish and have this other realization of like wow, that was hard and I did it, and I can do it. Or, oh my God, I just came in the first place or I'm on the podium. What's happening here, like that, I feel like, is there's so many ways that that can reinforce a healthy sense of identity, healthy processing of trauma, all that stuff. And I don't think people talk about that enough. In ultra-retin-E, I think we're fixated on like what gel do you use?
Lisa Danylchuk:And I'm like, okay, I want to know what you like to eat, but I do feel like there's a depth to it in being with yourself and whatever comes up when things are hard, whatever things you tell yourself, other people told you and having time and space and support right, because there's someone at the aid station and someone's carrying your shoes to the 30 mile mark or whatever to be able to do that. I think that's something really beautiful about ultra running.
Dion Leonard:I agree, and that's been part of my journey as in in the sort of learning process as well.
Dion Leonard:Like, many of the races I would do early on were stage races, so 155 mile races across the desert, maybe for seven days, but you're carrying your own food and water. So they were more self-reliant, which was probably really good for me because that's what I wanted to do, like I didn't need the help or support of others, like I was still that sort of lone wolf sort of attitude in person and still working it out in my own head like what I was doing, the running for and and and, as we talked about then the reasons why. And then when I started to get into more maybe hundreds and some of the two hundreds and some of the other events that I've been at then I've started to have crew and support and people there and realized you know, this is more of a team sport than you actually think to begin with and it's great to be able to share these adventures with other people as well and that's, you know, been pretty cool part of it as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, I've heard people say like, oh, you're running this far, what are you running from? I'm like, no, maybe not. What are we running towards? What are we running through? Who are we running with? I appreciate the concept of running as a team sport and and the transition from I got it I'm going to do it all myself to. Actually, this feels kind of nice, yeah, Because I've been there too, signing up for things. I'm like I just don't want to tell anybody, Like it's just my little secret and for whatever reason, right, you just want to protect it or you just want your space. So you're like I'm just going to do it by myself. So a few more questions I have for you. I know you've talked a lot about finding Gobi on the trail and you've told that story a million times. I'm curious what's the life like with Gobi these days? Is he running around with you or do you guys go out on family runs? What does that look?
Dion Leonard:like Well, she's 10 years old now. Of course, we don't exactly know how old she is. She might be older. She's fit and healthy and still likes to go walking and running, but a lot less running than, of course, the adventure across the desert in China.
Lisa Danylchuk:I mean for people who haven't heard that story briefly, how many miles. She found you at the beginning of the race or early in the race and followed you for how many miles.
Dion Leonard:Well, uh well, it's a six day, seven days, uh, seven day race, 155 miles long. She joins me on day two, uh, but she joined a couple of American runners on day one of the race. She ends up being there for the whole seven days of the event. She runs about 80 miles, four stages of the race. Uh, she's a little chihuahua shih tzu mix, so, uh, you know it's incredible feet, temperatures around 125 degrees. Um, this dog just, yeah, came out of nowhere, started running with the american runners on day one. On day two she sort of starts running with me and, yeah, we form this bond and friendship throughout the week. That is is unbreakable.
Dion Leonard:And at one point I had to decide whether to take the lead of the race or go back and help this dog across this water crossing that she can't cross on her own, and I decided to go back and help the dog. And it goes against everything I'm there to do. I'm a sponsored athlete at this point. I'm there to win the race. I'm I'm in a really good position to take the lead at this point, but I find myself going back to help this dog and it's a life-changing moment. I go back through the water first and second continue running on and I pick this dog up and when I put her in my arms I I really look at her for the first time, properly Like she joined me the day before. We'd run together 25 miles a day before. But when I picked her up on this day, day three, and had her in my arms, like I could just see the love this dog just had for me like nothing else you know before I mean happily married and I get that from my wife but this dog just had it like instantly.
Dion Leonard:And and then I saw myself in the dog, like this is stray dog in the middle of the goby desert, you know the fourth largest desert in the world. And it's like what is she doing out here? What is she surviving on? Why is she joined this race? Like, why has she chosen me out of all the 100 runners there? And I see myself like straight dog boy on the streets, no family, no support, trying to put myself through school. You know difficult childhood. Here we are, these two lost souls, perhaps connected.
Dion Leonard:In this moment in the desert and as I carry across the water, I become like this protector of this little dog and that's the moment really when I start to fall in love with the dog and I spend the rest of the race with her and you know we run other stages of the race together and she's always by my side for the week and at the end of it I decide that I want to bring her home and at this point in my life I'm living in Edinburgh, in Scotland, and she can't get on the plane to fly home with me after the race because she needs to test it to make sure she doesn't have any diseases, so she has to stay in China and I fly all the way back to the UK and someone's looking after her in China and unfortunately she goes missing in China and, yeah, they ring me and tell me that she's on the streets of a city of over three and a half million people and they don't know where she is.
Dion Leonard:They can't look for her and so heartbreaking yeah, so I, I'm, I'm destroyed by that.
Dion Leonard:You know, I'm devastated, and especially after everything we'd been throughout in the desert and I had this great plan of her coming to live with me and have this wonderful new life that was now destroyed that I, I decided to fly back to china and all the way back out to this city and and start looking for her. And yeah, it was. It was just a phenomenal adventure in the desert and moment that I just couldn't help myself be there to search for her. And we searched for six weeks she was missing and, uh, yeah, we finally find her in the city and, um, it was like meant to be, you know, not only once in the desert, but the second time in, against all odds, I mean, uh yeah I.
Dion Leonard:I could never have imagined going back through the water to pick her up, just where the whole journey would be. And now we live in the us. Uh, goby's traveled to 34 different states. We're currently in las vegas uh, it's um nevada reading week, uh, week. It's a big month for us, the month of March in Las Vegas, so we're doing lots of different events around the city as well. And, yeah, it changed our life forever. Gobi's gone on to meet the royal family, presidents, movie stars, rock stars.
Lisa Danylchuk:Wow nice.
Dion Leonard:I love saying it because it's like one act of kindness changes my life forever. And it's a simple act, right, and it doesn't cost anything to go back and help the dog carry across the water. My goal is to get across the water as quick as I can put it back down catch first and second. But of course, the change happens as we cross the water together and moving on forwards. So when I share that with kids especially, you know, at schools with the chapter book or the picture book, it's like what would you do? Would you go back and help the dog or would you take the lead of the race? And 99.9% of people are like I'd go and help the dog too. You know, and it's a point of like realisation for me winning isn't everything and winning really isn't that important. And that was a big moment for me and it was a real life-changing moment. I spoke about those three other races earlier where I felt some big change. Well, of course, this was the biggest of them all.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, so profound, so much depth, and it's like another ultra to try to get Gobi back into your care, right, like navigating these systems and filling out forms and getting help. And then Gobi goes missing. And Gobi's missing for six weeks. And it's like the ups and the downs and the challenges and the persistence and showing up and believing, and all based on that moment of connection and that decision to go back. Because if you hadn't turned around, you wouldn't have that moment, you wouldn't have that powerful connection that you still have today. You carry around to schools all around Las Vegas and meet movie stars and presidents, and I mean it's changed your life in such a profound way, based on, oh, who's this dog on my ankles? And then, ooh, we ran some miles together and and go, goby can't get across the water without me.
Dion Leonard:I gotta go back, I gotta, I gotta show up for my people, or my dog in this case and the, the element of the sort of search afterwards, like the team, the, the teamwork of these people, hundreds of people searching for goby, looking for her. They don't know me, they've never seen the dog before, yet all of these people come together to help me find her. And I mean, I didn't find her, that's for sure Thankfully to all the people that came and helped, and that was phenomenal. You know, that was again another sort of moment in my life where I could feel the love from people. Like I'm, I'd go to those stage races and never really let anyone in, and this was a moment where I had to let people in to to find Gobi right. And so, again, you know, there's been a lot of transition through the sport and through this experience in particular, which has helped me as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah. So what is it like these days? Do you have moments of awe of the journey that you've been on with Gobi? What's it like? Just, I think it's you, is it Lucha? Is that how you pronounce?
Dion Leonard:Lucha yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:Lucha and Gobi. And is it Laura, your cat?
Dion Leonard:yes, unfortunately, laura the cat is no longer with us. Oh yeah, she lived till the age of 18. She had a fantastic life. She's got her own book out now as well, called Lara the runaway cat. She, she was alive for the for the launch of that. The book's been out a couple of years now, uh. So, yeah, phenomenal to think.
Dion Leonard:You know where the journey of life can take you, and I think that's one of the biggest elements when I go and speak at. Well, one of the great speaking events that I was invited to was the US Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, so I spoke in front of about two and a half thousand people there and it was about my life journey and just where life can take you. That like an ultra marathon, right at points, you're running along, you're running well, you're doing seven minute, eight minute miles, you're knocking out the pace. You're listening to some music or you're loving the sounds of the birds and you're like this is easy. Five miles later you're on your haunches, vomiting or trying to go up a climb. That just goes on forever and you think, god, this is terrible. Why am I here questioning life decisions? Right, so it's that roller coaster ride and that was. That's my life journey and I love sharing that because it's like you just never know where life can take you as well, you know, and it's like these sliding door moments that happen along the way. In which way do you take them?
Dion Leonard:And one of the best pieces of, I guess, feedback on my journey was my grade eight English teacher emailed us about a year or so ago and she said I'm really really, I read the book and I'm really sorry to hear about your childhood. And she said I knew, I knew there was something about you, but I never asked and I should have asked and I wish I'd have done more as a teacher and as a person. And she was really incredibly sad and sorry about that. But she was just like I just admire your drive and determination and will to want to make something of yourself even though you had absolutely nothing in life, and you've had this amazing journey with this story with Gobi, and I loved reading the book. And then the last line of the email was along the lines of like plus, the English in the book was really good too.
Lisa Danylchuk:I was wondering about that she's like from English teacher great job A plus.
Dion Leonard:I think that must be something that, um, yeah, for her to have seen me, of course. Uh, what? We're talking 40 years, not just not quite, but 38 years ago or something. It would have been, um, yeah to now this story, um, you know that that that shows you just where life can take you as well. Yeah, so it's a. It's a rewarding journey, even though at times it can be a hell of a tough journey too.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah. So what would you say to someone who's listening now, who's thinking something to themselves, like, oh yeah, this guy can do it. You know and they might make assumptions that you ran track in high school or something You've always been athletic or like, oh, but I can't. Or oh, that sounds so crazy, I feel so stuck to the couch. This could never be me. What would you say to that person?
Dion Leonard:Well, in my early twenties I was a pack aday, smoker, heavy drinker, big eater. I was about 250 pounds and I was never the ultra runner that I became and that all really turned around Like I was leading myself to an early grave until I made a bet with a friend one night as to who could run the half marathon distance the fastest, and we were drunk when we made this bet. It was his 30th birthday party. It was like one, two o'clock in the morning when he was telling everyone that he'd run this half marathon the year before and just over three months time he was going to run it again.
Dion Leonard:Now I was a fit kid, like I played a lot of sport at school, but when I became inralia you can drink at 18 and I was doing it at 14, I think. So I, you know, had some bad vices there and uh. But I always thought in my head I was still, you know, fit or I was. I've got this competitive spirit right. So now my friend and I, having this conversation, I'm like, oh, I could run that marathon race, like probably belittling him, a little sort of say, ah, that's nothing, it doesn't sound that far.
Dion Leonard:I could do that, and there was a bunch of people listening to us have this conversation. So they started to laugh, like you know, slapping their knees and rolling around on the ground laughing, saying there's no way you could run for a bus, let alone 13.11 miles. And it ticked something in me, like you know people telling me I couldn't, wasn't going to be anything in life, was never going to make it, I'm a loser, like. So I thought, yeah, I can do this, I bet you. I said Dan. I said I bet you I can do this, but unfortunately I kept talking. I had so much to drink. I said I bet you I can do this, dan, I'll even give you five minutes head start.
Lisa Danylchuk:Whoa Confidence.
Dion Leonard:We made this agreement that the loser had to take the other couple out for dinner at this expensive restaurant and at the time we were living in Manchester, in England, so where all the Manchester United soccer players go. It was going to be a big award, like a big meal, like a big win If you won. I was like, oh yeah, this is great. Anyway, I go home, I wake up the next morning. I'd completely forgotten about the bet until Lucia said to me hey, you made this dumb bet with Dan last night. You're going to beat him in a half marathon race. And I was like, oh yeah, I did, didn't I? And I was like and then all those people laughing at me came back to my mind as well and I thought I wonder how far I can run. So later that day I tried to run around the block and I I couldn't run to the first corner, you know, without being out of breath and struggling. And by the time I got around the block I was like exhausted and it was like wow, I am really unfit. There's no way I could run 13.1 miles. But what I did want to do was see if I could prepare a little bit. Tomorrow I'd try the block again. Right the next day I started to run further. A week or two later I was like, running a mile, it, you know, kept transforming like suddenly I was running five or six miles and dan would message and say, hey, have you done any training for this race? And I'd be like, no, I haven't even got out of the pub yet. You know, I'm still in the bar. I was telling him a lie, like, but secretly, using that energy of those people laughing at me like it had dug something up and of course, the childhood stuff. I was like, oh wow, this is really pushing me to want to prove to these people I can beat him.
Dion Leonard:Fast forward to the race day. He sees me for the first time since we'd made the bet, like three and a half months earlier. His jaw drops. He sees I've lost a lot of weight and he knows the race is on. I know I have to beat him by five minutes. So when the gun goes off to start the race, I push as hard as I can and I run with dan always behind me, but I don't know, of course, where he is throughout the race. I get to the finish line in a time of like one hour 28 and, uh, I'm like I have no idea what that means, right? But all I know is I have to beat dan by five minutes. So I'm like sitting there watching the watch like go by three minutes, four minutes I think Lucia was there at the race too. She finishes and then the five minutes goes past.
Dion Leonard:Dan hasn't finished at this point, so I'd beaten Dan and I was ecstatic about that because we're going to that fancy restaurant for the bet, right? But also, like for the very first time that I could ever remember, I felt good about myself for achieving something. And it didn't matter it was 13.1 miles, it could have been five kilometers, but I'd had probably the first mindset change in a long time that maybe I could achieve more than I could ever have thought of before. And I know that was the most longest answer ever to your question. But you can achieve much more than you really think you can. And that was for me, the groundbreaking moment of thinking hey, this running is actually maybe good for me and, as I said, I don't even like running. It's been this mechanism for me to be able to deal with a lot of stuff in my life and maybe I'm just starting to like it now.
Lisa Danylchuk:But it sort of came into your life in these different ways. And Lucia is a pretty serious athlete too, right, I mean, and she loves running.
Dion Leonard:She's positive running, you know, singing in the mountains, Like you know, she's completely different to me, but that that's a really good balance for us and I push her to be more competitive, to want to get a bit more out of these races and I'm a bit of a stickler, I guess, for her, but she also brings the better side out of me too, which is a really good balance.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, I was thinking and you're telling your half marathon story about the first time I signed up for a half marathon. I went into this volunteer office for American Heart Association and it's like an info session and I put down my credit card and I signed up to fundraise and I walked back to my car and I remember thinking that's really, I don't know if I can do this. Like 13.1 miles, I usually run three. Maybe I don't count my miles when I run them, maybe I don't even know the longest distance, maybe I've even run that before. But I didn't know and I thought, oh, my goodness, I don't know if I can do this. And then I did the training, ended up becoming a coach the next season.
Lisa Danylchuk:I remember meeting with people like this partner. I got in a meditation retreat and telling them and they're like, oh, I could never do that. I'm like, yeah, you can, you got this, come on, no, you can do it. I was like you can rock it, you can run, walk it. People do it all the time. Come sign up for the training, sign up for the training, did a half marathon and just every weekend adding another mile and just like you, bodies are and, yes, there's seasons of life and all of that. But even for me, coming back postpartum, it's like, oh, it's humbling right. Oh, if I haven't been running. And then I go out I'm like, oh, this used to be so easy. I used to like, oh, we did 20 miles this weekend, no big deal. And then I was like I did six miles. Yay, it's a mindset shift shift. But a little can turn into a lot, actually faster than I think we think. Especially at the beginning we're like, oh, that's far. No, instead of oh that's far, maybe. What's the first step?
Dion Leonard:Dan likes to take a lot of the credit for my journey, so he likes to take it. And Lucia was sort of more uh, my next step, getting to my first marathon as well. She signed us up for a marathon to medoc, which is a race oh, not a race, but a marathon across, uh, the wine region in france where you drink and eat. You wave 26 miles, uh. So yeah, she likes to say, well, I got you to the marathon and the ultra marathons after that as well, so, but yeah, I mean, you just never know really what you can achieve. And I think that for me, was a big part of uh taking up the running and then moving on to different distances and kept pushing. And yeah, I think if anyone was listening that wanted to try something and doesn't need, it could be learning a language, it could be playing an instrument, right, I think it's like get out there and have a go at see how you go and surround yourself with the right people, positive people and people that can help you achieve those things as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, that's a very Australian saying right, have a go.
Dion Leonard:Yeah, it is actually.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love it. Just have a go. It's just, it's so simple, it's so like light, like, oh, I'm just going to have a go, it's going to go see what happens. So how can people connect with you and follow your journey? Meet Gobi. Obviously, they can get the book finding Gobi by Dion Leonard. There's, like I said, there's a kid's book, there's a chapter book and then the Laura book as well. I haven't read, but that's on my list now.
Dion Leonard:Yeah, I'm a findinggobycom. Everything social media wise is at Finding Goby, where you'll see, of course, lots of pictures and videos and reels of Goby and information about any upcoming events as well. We have events at the moment in Las Vegas and then we have, I think, some events in Sacramento in June as well. So yeah all around the West Coast for the next few months at least. If anyone wants to follow more of my actual ultra running side on Facebook as Dion Leonard Ultra Runner and share some of my adventures on there as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:And you also do motivational speaking right, or if someone was interested in that, would it be DionLeonardcom.
Dion Leonard:Yeah, dionleonardcom. And yeah, one minute I'm telling a picture book story to children four or five years old and the next I'm at a corporate event sharing the life journey as well. So, yeah, it's a really blessed to be able to get out there and meet people and share Gobi's story as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:It sounds like a beautiful life. I'm so grateful you've shared it with us in all these ways and I'm grateful that Gobi found you. I know in the book you talk about it feels like Gobi really chose you right, like, hey, you, I'm coming with you, I'm still coming with you, I'm still right with you.
Dion Leonard:Look, if she could talk. That's why I'd ask her as well, Like that'd be. The first thing I'd ask would be why me? And yeah, it would be. It'd be interesting to understand her answer as well. Because it's yeah, did I find her or did she find me? That's also another thing that I often think. But yeah, it's a great partnership, that's for sure, and I get to hang out with her and my best friend every day, and my wife too, so it's not too bad.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it's a good life. It's a good life. Well, I encourage anyone who hasn't read the story. I mean, I think these days we just need reminders of moments of inspiration, of things that are possible. Is there anything? Obviously this story is plenty, but is there anything else in general in life that you find that brings you hope in moments that are difficult?
Dion Leonard:I think it's always. I think what you touched on there, isn't it, and a very much connection with the story of goby is like we're really incredible people and especially credible when we come together for the right reasons and uh, what we can go out there and achieve is remarkable, and I think that's something to to keep in mind at times. You know, there's oftentimes where I I think we can see the bad, or there's lots of terrible press out there, and it's like we do lots of good things together as human beings as well, and, um, yeah, be kind others, be kind animals, and uh, I think the the world's a better place, and I think that's why goby's story doesn't have a time date to it. Like, not once have you said to me when did this story happen? Like it's just a beautiful love story and it's a heartwarming, inspiring story that has many different people coming together to give this dog a better home, and that's the beautiful part of what we can all do together and achieving something great as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:And just any act of kindness and the opportunity that that can bring and just sharing your story. I mean, there's something as small as you talked about your coach telling you to count one, two, three on the trail and I started doing that and I really like it.
Dion Leonard:I'd still find myself doing that.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, detail that's like. Is it life changing? I like it, I use it, and it's like you just happen to share that in your story. So I think, just doing the things we do, sharing what our heart's feeling you know what we're feeling called to and and being open for that opportunity for connection, for the opportunity to extend a hand, literally or metaphorically I think it's really beautiful. So thank you again for being here today, for sharing this journey with us and for all you're doing.
Lisa Danylchuk:I want to really acknowledge and honor the transformation you've been through. I'm a trauma therapist. I sit with people and work through hard things professionally for a long time and I have some context for like what that really can mean and look like and how difficult that can be, and so I just want to acknowledge and honor that and thank you for showing up on the trail and doing that work when you don't know what it is, and and following it forward and sharing all the healing and all the love that's come to you through your journey with us. I think that's that's kind of like the highest hope in my mind that we can all do is just take whatever we've been through, especially the really gnarly stuff, and in some way transmute it and then like somehow it can turn into gold and we share it right thanks, yeah, and that's, you know, a big part of the reason why I love sharing this story, uh, with people of all ages is to give hope that, yeah, you know, life is a journey.
Dion Leonard:It's going to be lows, but there's lots of highs. Like, let's hang out for the highs a bit more often, you know, believe in ourselves as well, and that's that's something that I really enjoy doing.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much, dion. Thanks for being here today.
Dion Leonard:Thanks, appreciate it. It's been great talking with you. Likewise.
Lisa Danylchuk:Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported and, like you, have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit howwecanhealcom. There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the show notes for each show. Thanks for your messages, feedback and ideas about the podcast. I love hearing from you and I so appreciate your support. There are lots of ways you can support the show and I'm grateful for every little bit of love you share. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, spotify, audible or wherever you get your podcasts. You can always visit howwecanhealcom backslash podcast to share your thoughts and ideas as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:Before we wrap, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands and we encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion on this show is their own and opinions can change right. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd also like to send just huge thanks to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the fur babies while I record. Lastly, I'd like to give a shout out to my big brother, matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you here. Thank you.