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How We Can Heal
A podcast to share deep conversations about How We Can Heal from life’s toughest circumstances.
How We Can Heal
Healing After Birth: Reimagining Your Body & Brain Through Parenthood
What if the transformation into parenthood isn't just about survival, but offers a unique window of opportunity for profound growth? In this illuminating conversation, classical singer and Alexander Technique practitioner Madison Smith challenges the harmful notion that we should "bounce back" after childbirth, offering instead a revolutionary perspective on the neurological shifts that occur during this major life transition.
"Your body's not coming back, and I don't say that negatively," Madison explains. "Your body has moved beyond what was available prior." Drawing from her extensive background in voice, movement, and somatics, Madison explores how our brains physically change during parenthood — creating not deficits, but heightened neuroplasticity and learning capacity. This shift rewires us to respond intuitively to our children while simultaneously opening doors to accelerated growth in other areas of our lives.
The discussion delves into the problematic landscape of postpartum fitness, where anatomically incorrect cues like "belly button to spine" prioritize aesthetics over function, sometimes causing lasting injury. Madison shares her own journey of postpartum back pain and how proper understanding of core engagement through expansion rather than contraction ultimately led to healing. She offers practical guidance on breathing techniques that support true core stability while regulating the nervous system, demonstrating how rest and respiratory awareness can be powerful yet underrated tools for recovery.
Perhaps most compelling is Madison's reframing of major life transitions not as setbacks but as opportunities for transformation. Whether you're navigating parenthood, menopause, illness, or any significant change, this conversation invites you to release your grip on who you were and explore the expanded possibilities of who you're becoming. Connect with your body as a source of wisdom, release the pressure to "do it all," and discover what's true for you now — not what was true before or what others expect of you.
If you're in the San Francisco area, look for Madison's in-person workshops for mothers and teens. Find her online at madisoprano.com or on social media @madisoprano.
Season 5 of the How We Can Heal Podcast is sponsored by SimplePractice.
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Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast. Today's guest is someone who brings a truly refreshing and deeply validating perspective on healing and parenthood. Madison Smith is a classical singer and Alexander Technique practitioner who supports people as a voice and body integration coach. With over 20 years of experience as a professional singer and a background in dance, yoga, physical therapy and functional movement, her work helps us reconnect with our bodies as a source of truth, freedom and power. Madison has won numerous awards, has worked with top artists, grammy award-winning conductors and in renowned venues across the globe. She holds a master's degree in voice from the San Francisco Conservatory of Music and a bachelor's degree in voice from the Boston Conservatory.
Lisa Danylchuk:Today, she helps us understand the powerful neurological shifts of parenthood as pathways to growth, learning and resilience. In our conversation, we dig into the important nuances of postpartum recovery, how common efforts to impact how we look can be harmful for how we function and how we can focus on moving forward instead of clinging to the familiarities of the past. Madison and I connected years ago through our mutual friend, molly, and she enrolled in my Yoga for Trauma online training program just a few years ago. It's been wonderful to see our professional worlds grow closer and I'm excited for you to get to hear from her here today. If you've ever felt like you had to bounce back fast or wondered if your brain would ever feel the same again, this episode is here to offer you something gentle, wise and hopeful. Please join me in welcoming Madison Smith to the show. Welcome Madison Smith to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Madison Smith:I'm so happy to have you here today.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm so excited to be here today we're going to talk a lot about parenting and health and well-being and all the things that relate to that. So my first question for you, Madison, is how did your interest in supporting parents develop?
Madison Smith:Oh, I'm a parent first and foremost.
Lisa Danylchuk:So you become a parent and you go oh, like that, okay, we need some help here.
Madison Smith:Oh, it's not what I thought it would be. I am also a classical singer by training, so a lot of my focus during pregnancy and postpartum was around my instrument, my voice, which is ultimately my body. In addition to that, I've also been studying the Alexander technique for about 14, 15 years now, so a lot of my experience of myself and my body is finely tuned through that perspective. And so what I found on my own journey into motherhood parenthood a lot of the misinformation around how our bodies are supposed to work, a lack of support around the areas where we really need support, and kind of just picking up the pieces along the way and realizing, oh snap, there is a lot more we could be talking about, there's a lot better ways we could be supporting parents collectively, but especially women, on this transition point into parenthood.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm going to shout out to my best friend that I grew up with I call her weenie. Shout out to she says oh snapple, oh snapple. I'm curious about supports that you saw that were missing. What were some of the gaps and wide holes in support that became apparent to you?
Madison Smith:Well, I think for one, like any woman who's gone through pregnancy or person who's gone through pregnancy if you know that the list of things that could happen to you they never give that to you, first of all because it's too long. It's entirely too long. It's why anytime a female body goes to the doctor and something's wrong, they say like, let's have you take a pregnancy test. So there's so much that can happen. So much bio-individuality of that experience. From the beginning, I think for me personally, I struggled a lot with postpartum anxiety and depression. I think there's two sides to this. I think there's a stigma around what postpartum anxiety and depression is. It's put on this pedestal. Baby blues are okay, but postpartum depression is not okay.
Madison Smith:But what is that line and I know your experience as a therapist like if you're dealing with trauma like what is the line Ultimately? It's about a person's own experience with trauma. Like what is the line Ultimately, it's about a person's own experience. I think there's a lack of clarity around what is normal and what is not normal, especially at this transition point in parenthood. And so what I've learned and what I've uncovered there like understanding the brain, the physical, structural brain changes that happen, and it gives you such a better framework for understanding, or setting a baseline for yourself of like is this normal, is this something I can manage or is this something I need help with? Yes, if we set the bar at, it should be normal that you experience anxiety and depression and the transition into motherhood or parenthood collectively because of what's happening in your brain. It takes that stigma away. Right, it is the rule, not the exception. Right, most people are experiencing this and here's what's available to you.
Lisa Danylchuk:There's so much in what you've said already in terms of what's common, what's typical, what are a lot of people dealing with but just maybe not talking about. Or even if they want to talk about it, maybe they're just doing so much at the time it's not like they have the bandwidth. So let me call my friend or let me go on a podcast right now in the middle of the night while I'm up with my baby. And then you also mentioned that list of possible things, because I had the same thought. Probably soon after I gave birth to Isabella. I thought well, why didn't my midwife tell me that I might not be able to pee while I was in labor, which happened to me for 12 hours, not comfortable, right. And when it happened to me, my midwife was like oh, that happened to me too. So I had this thought why didn't you tell me that? And then I thought about it after, like oh, because if my midwife showed up with a list of all the things that might happen during labor, it would freak me the F out. And the point of the relationship with her and all this is more about that and the point of the relationship with her and all this is more about that.
Lisa Danylchuk:You know we can speak in polyvagal terms here, that ventral, vagal to the process, but there's some like middle ground here where you do want to know what's common, what's typical, what's normal in quotes or parentheses or whatever. Like what is normal anymore? Who knows, nothing is normal anymore, but what you and I are so similar in this way of like. Let's come back to physiology. Let's come back to what we know about in general, our collective body experience. What happens to our bodies when we're exposed to trauma. What happens to our brains? What happens to our bodies and brains in this transition into parenthood? So it sounds like you had your personal experience and you're coming back to that. What's happening in my body and brain. That helps maybe support my understanding of everything that's going on.
Madison Smith:Yeah, and you started to highlight this. But there's the flip side of it, and this speaks directly to my experience as a singer, because the number one thing any singer asks as soon as they find out they're pregnant or they're thinking about getting pregnant what's going to happen to my voice? How quickly can I go back to singing and I think this would be true in any work scenario with any career how soon can I go back to work? How long should I take off?
Madison Smith:We really do depend upon each other for these stories about what's happening in our bodies, but there's a huge caveat here. Knowing that bio-individuality, I cannot expect my experience to be the same as yours. And if that's the frame of reference I have chosen for myself and that's not how it goes for me, what happens? I get upset, I feel let down by myself, by my body, by that experience, and that's the emotional contingent part for me of like. How do we talk about this in such a way where we can share our stories, share our experiences, but with the very clear caveat of this isn't about you attaching yourself to this outcome. This is a possible outcome, so that you have this on your periphery and all of this other stuff is still potentially available for better or for worse?
Lisa Danylchuk:And I think, in some of the worlds I've been in, I think about like a yoga, wellness, focused world which can have a strong emphasis towards quote unquote natural right, doing things in a non-invasive way. And then I've known people who need interventions and feel shame around that, or even need to take a medication and feel shame around that, or even need to take a medication and feel shame around that. So I think there's something really important that you're highlighting in terms of trusting our own experience and our own bodies. At the same time, being able to listen and take in other people's information without attaching to it Breadcrumbs they're breadcrumbs. Yeah, we're thinking, oh, that's the way it's going to go for me.
Lisa Danylchuk:And, of course, when there's a land of mystery, which there is a lot around labor and delivery, like we see certain images in movies and most people I mean for me, once I got pregnant people are like, oh, that's not really how it goes, right, that's just what you see. And there's all these other options and all these other ways. So you do. It does broaden a bit, but to what degree? And, like you said, how do we stay open to just trusting our own intuition throughout the process and trusting our bodies, rather than having that experience of oh it didn't go that way, so what's wrong? And then that can set us up for a whole shame spiral, because then it's something bad about me instead of just what was best or what is best or what's happening.
Madison Smith:Yeah we're talking about. It's bringing up a lot of my own experience dealing with the medical profession at large, western medical profession at large. When something is wrong with you, it is very hard to get someone to take you seriously, especially in a female body. So we've really been conditioned for many years in so many ways to kind of offload responsibility of what is normal for our bodies, to have someone else tell us whether our experience is true and correct. And yet there are so many things we don't know about the female body still. It's so many layers and it just it feels especially raw and especially exposed at this transition point into motherhood and I think that's ultimately where I feel that can we just give a little cushion here?
Madison Smith:to other people going through this experience. Can we give a little space, can we give a little support, a little grace?
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, definitely More cushion, more space, more support. So there's the information about what happens, and then there's trusting your body and trusting your experience. Are there other supports that you noticed? I know you've been, professionally too, supporting other singers who are going through this transition into parenthood specifically. So are there other supports that maybe you didn't see before getting pregnant, becoming a mom, that now are just loud and clear?
Madison Smith:Well, this is kind of a double-edged sword. Postpartum fitness training I think it's great, and I talk a lot about pelvic floor in my practice because I think it's one of the number one things that we know the least about our bodies as women or female individuals or even men, for that matter. There's a lot going on down there that we don't talk about. The parts are very much the same thing, so it's not a sex or gender issue in that respect. What I see in the health and wellness and the fitness industry at large is there's a lot of energy around supporting moms and getting them back to their pre-baby bodies. After they have a child.
Madison Smith:Your body's not coming back, and I don't say that negatively. Your body has moved beyond what was available for prior. I think there's a lot more available to us now. After going through such a big transition, I wanted to be able to move my body in a safe way, but I was also seeing that a lot of the information being shared in postpartum fitness spaces was not only anatomically incorrect. It was very much informed by this drive or this need to flatten your tummy and make your waist small, and even though we don't talk about that or realize that's what's happening. That is the bulk of what core workouts are, especially when they're geared towards women.
Lisa Danylchuk:When you say core and I think of some of the well-informed practitioners I've worked with they're like your core is a lot of different muscles it's your glutes and your hips and your back muscles and your abdominal muscles.
Lisa Danylchuk:But I've been in the fitness world too, where I see that lens that tends to be more externally focused in terms of what something looks like rather than what something feels like, and then, you know, focusing on that, sometimes to the detriment of actual function and health. And I think there's a shift from what I see, right, we are all seeing from different angles of people starting to become more aware of the pelvic floor, starting to incorporate some more of that in some spaces at least that are a little more attuned to this, or maybe with people who are teaching, who have been through birth, starting to say, okay, we've got to activate here and pay attention there and notice this and connect with breath through exercise. So there's a therapeutic way. And then there's I want to say like a superficial more about how it looks way, and focusing on the way it looks can actually be harmful because it's neglecting what's really happening.
Madison Smith:And I mean the unfortunate thing is like, how do you tease that apart? Because our understanding of function is so driven by aesthetics and has been for so long. So even this idea of like belly button to spine, which is something that's very prevalent as a core cue for supporting your spine or your posture, that was created by a physical therapist in the 80s but it was never intended to be used in this way. So it's become so pervasive, so many people cue that, but that's not actually how our abdominal wall functions if we're trying to support someone postpartum.
Madison Smith:I injured my back two months postpartum and it took me almost a year to heal it. And, looking back, I think a large part of that was because the information I was getting was misinformed about core support function and pelvic floor function, even though this is coming from a very specialized postpartum fitness space. It was the right intentions, full stop. But if so much of our understanding of how the body is supposed to function is misinformed, we're not going to get the results we want. We're going to be going. What's wrong? What's wrong with me? Why can't I do that?
Lisa Danylchuk:So what did you learn that helped you access healing for your back?
Madison Smith:A lot of it's time. Right, I had a natural delivery. Natural, I had low intervention delivery, but I had a vaginal birth. That's what I meant to say. I mean, they say nine months in, nine months out, but it could take years for you to feel like yourself again.
Madison Smith:So I think the the moniker of understanding healing is a nonlinear thing. First of all, it's not that you just magically go back to what you were and things heal. I think there's also an emotional element to healing in that, and I'm sure you can get on board with this. Every time I felt like I healed the thing that was bothering me, Something else cropped up and I think it was less about that. Those things were wrong.
Madison Smith:But oh, I'm in a space now where I can pay attention to these things that have needed my tending for so long and I haven't been available to it. So I mean, there's a very practical element of what did I learn that helped me fix my back, and it was understanding how the transversus abdominis functions. It actually expands outwards, right, it doesn't contract inwards, so when you breathe in, it expands outwards and that allows for that dissension of the diaphragm for the pelvic floor to move all of these things. So if all of our, all of the information we're getting about core is to keep things tight or belly button to spine, that's not allowing our TVA muscle to move the way it needs to move.
Lisa Danylchuk:It can lead to being hypertonic, which is also an issue.
Madison Smith:Yeah, hyper and hypo. It means that we're not breathing fully into our lungs. It means our diaphragm is not moving, which means our core system is not functioning properly. And if we're not able to fully inflate our lungs, that means we're breathing pretty high and pretty tight. What does that do to our nervous system? That feeds this loop that we're in a state of panic? Right, that's lighting up our nervous system. If everything's tight here, if we're not breathing fully, we're kind of living in this constant state of fight or flight and in the cues of lack of safety, yeah.
Madison Smith:Yeah, so it's layers upon layers.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, I've also been thinking a lot lately about bracing and seeing it in, clients noticing it when we think something's going to happen, or when we're just collecting in stories and not releasing somatically. It's like this tension that builds up, or bracing against something. It just makes me think of that from an aesthetic standpoint or even just from a functional standpoint oh, I'm trying to support my spine. We could end up in this way, bracing ourselves. So we're not allowing fluid movement, and the fluid movement could be right. There's always individuality here, but the fluid movement could be what allows us to activate and soften in a more balanced way and explore different range of motion. There's another element here of just pain science in terms of when we learn something hurts and we brace around it and we light up that cue oh, pain, danger. Or then someone says, don't do that, it's going to hurt you. Then you do it and it hurts, because that's what I'm primed for, right? So there's. It's so interesting here, though, because I was talking to Tara Tanini, who came on the show to talk about acupuncture and women's health, and she said that people one of her thoughts about acupuncture and why people tend to avoid it is because when you're young. You go to the doctor and they say this isn't going to hurt at all, and then they prick you and it hurts. So it's like when someone says, oh, acupuncture needles don't hurt. I heard that before. So there's something in here about how do we tell truth about pain without exacerbating it. How do we find fluidity of movement even when we are feeling pain?
Lisa Danylchuk:My experience postpartum is definitely nonlinear in terms of. You know, I had back pain, I had hip instability. There are some days where I still wake up and I'm like, oh, that's worse today. Okay, it was a lot better last week, right, and sometimes I know what happened. Oh, I did 10 mile run yesterday and it was slippery and mud so I had to do more stability, and this is new. And some days I it's not clear. It's just a ride that we're on and we have to kind of listen and be responsive and choose the next tool.
Madison Smith:Well, it's interesting you're saying this, because my question to you, like in a practitioner sense, is like what are you looking for? And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think a lot of times people are. I want to, I want it to feel like it used to feel. Mm, hmm, yeah, I want to be able to trust my body the way I used to be able to trust my body.
Lisa Danylchuk:I mean when you say what are you looking for? Well, in what sense? Right, because I think that's going to be a question to each person and each provider.
Lisa Danylchuk:If someone were asking for my help, I would want to know what they were looking for for themselves, what they were looking for from me, right. But if someone has been through birth and is maybe in pain and looking for physiological support, let's just say we're talking about core stability, which obviously right. If you grow a baby in your body, it shifts things around a little bit in there, right A lot. And if you give vaginal birth or have a C-section, that's a big, over the course of an amount of hours or so, big change in either your skin and your organs and your fascia, or also perhaps your sacrum and your hips and everything that's involved. So I think a lot of times people are looking for to feel better and and the reference for better is before. It's interesting for me because I felt great while I was pregnant. So the reference for me isn't necessarily before. It's like yeah, hey, what about when I was pregnant? That felt awesome. So you know, the solution is like two months postpartum to get pregnant again if you're back, but I was tempted.
Madison Smith:Let me tell you that's an interesting conversation we should have offline. It is our frame of reference and this starts to tie into the brain stuff. Ultimately, a lot of this comes from the Mother Brain book by Chelsea Conaboy, who is a medical journalist. She went out there and she like dug up all of the studies there are for women going into parenthood. But I think the interesting thing that I want to highlight is and we know this in other areas too your brain physically changes on the journey into parenthood.
Madison Smith:I say parenthood collectively, because any person who is in a full-time caring position experiences the same kind of physiological brain changes. Now we don't have enough study to say precisely what changes they are. In some studies it is less gray matter, in some it's more it's white matter. Everyone's looking at different things, but I think there's enough data to suggest that there are physiological brain changes, even if we're not sure why precisely. We see it and this is something we also see if we're dealing with illness or disease. We saw it with COVID patients. We also see this in peri and menopause brain changes.
Madison Smith:So these times of like big physiological transition, our brains are impacted and for me, the takeaway is even if nothing else changed in your body even if you hadn't given birth, if you had experienced these brain changes.
Madison Smith:Your sense of self, your proprioception and your interoception have shifted. And this is a beautiful tie-in to my work with the alexander technique, because I remember one of the first sessions I ever had, the. The instructor had me shift my head slightly, and I mean like a millimeter, but it felt like my whole head moved off my body right and it it really plays with this sense of, as I said, interoception and proprioception, our understanding of ourselves in space and, particularly in parenthood and motherhood, our sense of self, emotionally too, because now all of these things that we knew to be true no longer feel true. And when we take that pressure off, it's not me, it's not that I've changed, like my brain has changed. Literally my whole worldview has shifted through this journey. So, instead of spending all my time trying to go back to who I was, what's available to me now, and for me as a coach, as a practitioner, like that's where the good shit is.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love that you're talking about Alexander technique.
Lisa Danylchuk:I was just in a training the other day about the Alexander technique and deep brain reorienting, which we talked about last season with Dr Ruth Lanius in terms of treatment of trauma and dissociation.
Lisa Danylchuk:In deep brain reorienting, which we talked about last season with Dr Ruth Lanius, in terms of treatment of trauma and dissociation, in deep brain reorienting, we focus a lot on movements of the head or the initial moment of shock in trauma and how we respond and a lot of times there's maybe a pull back with the head. If there's something sudden that happens, we'll pull back or we'll turn our head away, or there's just these ways that we can unpack. If there's an initial moment, split second reaction, we can start to unpack some of that and even these small turns of the head and then slowing things down and exploring what happens in our interoception, feeling into what we're noticing in our bodies and just I think most people listening know the difference but like interoception, feeling into somatically what's happening internally in your body, proprioception, feeling your body in space, right, but in deep brain reorienting we're really curious about those head movements and I think it fits right in with Alexander technique. So it's so interesting that you found that and that you found that little tiny shift to be so powerful.
Madison Smith:Yeah, and that was like the first time I'd ever done Alexander technique as a young 19 year old singer.
Lisa Danylchuk:Way back Nice.
Madison Smith:And I have since done many, many years of studies. But it is it. It is disorienting. And then it also ties into the dopamine, the predictability system of our brains, right. A lot of times we think of dopamine as the rewards like it's good stuff, it feels good stuff, but you also get rewards for things that don't feel good necessarily. But it's because our brains can predict the outcome correctly.
Lisa Danylchuk:Or even seeking right I think of dopamine like seeking something too, like oh, I'm going to have this for dinner. Yes, I had that for dinner.
Madison Smith:I know exactly what this is going to taste like Right, yeah, the predictability. I know exactly what this is going to taste like Right, yeah, the predictability. Yeah, looking for that Exactly. And so movements are the same thing and our understanding of our bodies is the same thing. The predictability of it is a safety mechanism for us.
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Lisa Danylchuk:So, going to a yoga class postpartum it's interesting because I talked to some people followed along journeys, people who are pregnant and delivered close to me or people who have much older kids. I talked to some of my friends and their kids are like eight and they're like I haven't even been back to yoga. And then I talked to friends who are yoga teachers, like me, and they got back on their mat in this very slow, progressed way and just noticing how your body needs care right, your body needs different things at different times and tracking with it and being responsive to it tends to be really helpful. It's kind of impossible not to notice. Oh, I used to be able to do this and now I can't right. Interestingly though, this is a total aside I could go into handstand and balance for days postpartum, which I've never been able to do. I've always been super bendy and I thought I'm postpartum I'm going to be even more bendy, but something about the way my weight was proportioned or something I don't know. I could balance in a handstand for days in the first few yoga classes. I went back within the first year postpartum and then eventually that's gone. Now I'm all wobbly all over the place again.
Lisa Danylchuk:I thought my core was all blasted away and I would never like. I've always thought this is interesting, maybe for somebody. I've always thought to myself the story I told was the reason I can't balance in handstand in the middle of the room for minutes, like I've seen many people do, is because I have a long torso and there's a lot of core stability that was like missing, like my core is not strong enough to hold me in handstand in the middle of the room. Then I have this experience I had a vaginal delivery of my core being stretched to 10 months pregnant and, within a few months after that, being able to nail a handstand and hold it in the middle of the room. No problem.
Lisa Danylchuk:I was like what, this is cool. This feels so different. It's so interesting that the story that I was telling wasn't accurate. Right, because, if anything, I was in a time of, and still am in a time of rebalancing and integrating my core muscles in physical therapy, pelvic floor therapy, like I was doing all the things to try to take care of myself but then just magically could do a hand stand, not that, like doing a handstand, has this crazy inherent value, but it was so interesting as something I had worked towards and then just showed up in this time where I thought it would be the opposite.
Madison Smith:I mean thinking about the core specifically. So much of our core gets stretched out. But if our understanding of core both prior to and following pregnancy is tightening it up again for me understanding now how those muscles coordinate and how they actually functionally support you, I'd be like, well, yeah, perhaps that expansion, that stretching of those deep core muscles is what allowed that functioning to better support you in a handstand.
Lisa Danylchuk:And another thing I've learned physical therapy wise is like you've been saying about the TVA, like actually pushing out can be more stabilizing. I've been in CrossFit before and stuff too right, where people talk about that as like almost a little bit of bearing down to stabilize, which is the opposite of sucking in and up. You're laughing, people listening can't see your face, but I saw.
Madison Smith:That's why Well, okay, so my expertise and my experience is from singing and it is a very finely tuned system. So when we're talking about breath and breath pressure, intra-abdominal pressure is what we're talking about. If there is too much pressure, that's going to affect your singing. For me anytime, I'm thinking about bearing down or pushing out. Those are cues you can use, but it might be activating the system more than is necessary. So I'm very particular about what cues I use in that respect. Tell me what cues you like. One of the basis for me is release versus relax. It comes to muscle tone, releasing a muscle. If you're holding something with your hand and you release, you don't have to relax it totally Right, start over again. You can release as a renewing, a releasing of that activation. So there's a sense of length and activation in the word release versus relax, which is a total letting go of whatever muscle it is, which is a total letting go of whatever muscle it is. So I'm very particular about using release versus relax, especially when I'm cueing specific movement pattern things.
Lisa Danylchuk:I appreciate this in a lot of ways.
Madison Smith:Yeah, I'm specifically thinking about breathing. I actually like to cue breath into the back of the pelvis structure. So a lot of times we think of the pelvis as a single bony structure, but it's actually two halves and anyone who's gone through pregnancy likely had pain through the back of the pelvis or even through the center of the pelvis lightning crotch as it's affectionately known, or SI joint pain right had both of those Mm-hmm. So if we imagine that we're breathing into widening the pelvis right, it can move ever so slightly because it's held together by these ligaments, by these muscles. I'm just imagining I'm breathing and widening into that space. That is now your TVA functioning properly. That is intra-abdominal support. That's it. That's all you have to do. You don't have to push out. If you push out, try, imagine you're pushing out. Yeah, what do you notice?
Lisa Danylchuk:If I'm trying to push out to the sides, yeah. I actually I just feel more, like more in feeling.
Madison Smith:Yeah, my superficial Donald's, the rectus of Donald's kick on, they tighten or pushing in because, all this energy is going outwards.
Madison Smith:So even though I'm expanding outwards with the TV, if I'm thinking I'm pushing out, I'm actually activating different muscle groups Right. So this is why I'm like there's layers to this. When it comes to postpartum fitness or fitness in general, a lot of times we're cuing things coming from the right perspective but it's actually kicking on muscles. We don't want to cue that way. The specificity of that is really important and it's something we don't get enough training in collectively, especially for postpartum bodies. So much is so much softness, especially for postpartum bodies, so much softness and understanding nervous system activation in that. Can we approach our return to physical movement in a place of softness and gentleness as opposed to activating these muscles to the super extreme?
Lisa Danylchuk:Right. Yeah, like you said earlier, creating space for parents and people, postpartum creating space, because I think that space creates a sense of softness or gentleness in our approach to our bodies. There can be this I mean, I see it as very American, but people might see it through other cultural lenses too Like get back at it, get back to work, get back together, get back to right. Like get back instead of move forward and instead of take this very sacred pause which I very intentionally tried to do of making space and making space for your body, cause there is some element of healing that is time.
Lisa Danylchuk:That is magic right, like, oh, it's better tomorrow than it was yesterday. And there is an element of healing that is attention and intention and care from other people, and there is some element of healing that's, like we've said, very nonlinear. So, with all of that, I think, when we can give it space and call in supports and try to refine our skillfulness, our understanding of ourselves, our bodies, of what they need now rather than what would bring them back then, right, what they needed then was different. What our bodies needed a year ago is different from what our bodies need now. So let's just focus on what our bodies need now for health, for function, for pain-free movement, for enjoyable movement. Right Do the duties that we need in everyday life, like the amount of times I squat down to pick up my 27-pound daughter right, or her toys or whatever else. My daily movement habits have also changed, so why would I have the same needs as I did a year, two years ago?
Madison Smith:It's kind of like a reconnection with presence. Yeah, all facets.
Lisa Danylchuk:So much a basis of trauma-informed work, and I know you've done studies in trauma-informed care. You've done some with me. What does it mean for you to be trauma-informed in your work? A lot, it means very much the end.
Madison Smith:I think there's so many different ways that I use the principles of being trauma-informed in my work. I mean number one is meeting people where they are and not having an idea or an expectation of what I want from them. And something that always rattles around in my brain from I did Lisa's yoga for trauma yoga Lisa's yoga for trauma.
Lisa Danylchuk:I got that name on a retreat that Madison came on in Bali. Was that 2017 maybe? I think the person holding the card for our pickup said Yoga Lisa. I became Yoga Lisa and it has lasted.
Madison Smith:I love it, this idea of balance? Right, we're not trying to and this is something that ties into resilience too right, we're not trying to avoid the feelings that we experienced in trauma, or the negative feelings, or this is a great tie into pain. We're not trying to avoid the sensation of pain, but how do we move through it?
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah. How do we relate to it? Even yeah.
Madison Smith:And breath. For me, like ultimately all of my work, foundationally, is how can we breathe through it? Because if our our respiratory muscles are working properly, that means our postural muscles are working properly. That means we can connect with our nervous system properly and cool it down when we need to. It means we're getting our lymph and our blood and all of the liquids in our body to where they need to be for healing. There's so many layers to this work, so there's emotional, psychological trauma, but then there's physiological trauma and how we heal from pain, and that softness is key in all of those places.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it really is. And the listening. I think that's a really big piece that you highlighted. It can be tempting to find a technique and just apply it. This is the 10-step process. I mean, if I had a dollar for every time. Someone said what's the sequence for trauma recovery and I'm like it doesn't quite work that way. I can give you three sample sequences and you can pick which one is the most helpful as a starting point, but it's just not. It's just that it's not so linear or so what's the word. I want to say myopic, but I feel like that's judgmental. It's not so universal. We need responsiveness in our care. That's such a good word. So in the work that you're doing with parents now, how has that trauma-informed perspective that you got from the Y4T training?
Madison Smith:that you got from the Y4T training. Has it changed anything for you? Yes, it's a short answer. I've moved through different waves and cycles. With that I mean, as a singer, understanding how trauma impacts our body physiologically. We're talking about bracing, right, holding. All of those things are really antithetical to singing, but all of those things are really antithetical to living. Anytime we're bracing or holding, we're setting ourselves up for injury, if we don't already have one Fatigue and injury. We're using muscles in a way that they're not intended to work. It's very easy to create that cycle loop for ourselves. If we're not able to breathe fully, we're likely to be causing I don't want to say damage, but amping up the nervous system as much as we're trying to cool it down.
Madison Smith:I got a client recently who she like went down the list. She's like yep, I want Alexander to be yep, I want trauma informed. Like yep, yep, yep. And every week she shows up and it's like a totally different new experience of like something very deep that I was like, oh, that would have been helpful to know. But cool, we're just constantly uncovering it. But I don't ever, in any moment, say I can't handle that. And if I did, I'd say you need to talk to so and so. Right, it's just about that space, that grace, to say, hey, what are you comfortable sharing with me today? And how beautiful that is. It's an act of co-creation. Someone else's healing is an act of co-creation, and we get to heal together.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it's beautiful and I think part of what I hear and what you're saying is the comfort and the steadiness that comes with the awareness Like, oh, I've studied trauma, I understand, I've got this basis. What you're saying makes sense to me. When we don't have that background, it's easy for us as providers to start to panic, a little like, oh, I'm getting out of my wheelhouse, I don't know what's happening, what's going to happen, what if I do something wrong? But when you have a sense, instead of going in that direction, it's like thanks for telling me, here's some ways we could approach that today. Also, thanks for telling me it might be time to add a referral in here, right, like knowing your scope and being able to be responsive and centered and grounded and have some clarity rather than go into anxiety or panic because it's a whole world of unknown and I mean to add a layer of empathy to all that.
Madison Smith:Right, this isn't my wheelhouse. Like I'm not a psychotherapist, I'm not going to give you therapy, but I can. I can connect with that feeling and that sensation and we can develop community and connection around that in the moment. Even if I can't support you in the way you ultimately need, I can be with you in that moment, and that's lovely.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, one of the things I've been loving is something called dream storming. I don't know if you heard the episode with Dr Jennifer Gomez where she talks about this term that she came up with. Instead of brainstorming like, okay, we've got a problem, and thinking about the problem at the same level that it was created, going out to the dream and pulling from there. So if you could dream, storm what it looks like for parents to have access to care, to have supports, to have health and healing in this big change right, it's a big change to go from a person maybe just taking care of yourself to a parent, or even to a parent the second or third time, or parent of multiples, right? So if you could dream, storm what's available to people, what would you see that?
Madison Smith:is such a great question.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love it. It's one of my favorite things. I'm like let's dream storm. Hi, nice to meet you. Let's dream storm.
Madison Smith:What immediately comes up, and we haven't really talked about this yet, but I think it sets the opportunity in play, which is when we're going through the journey into parenthood. Our brains are shifting, but it actually gives us access to heightened myelination and neuroplasticity. So what does that mean? That means we can learn new things more quickly. It's how we become better parents. We're able to learn how to respond to our child's cues. We get real intimate, real fast. With this little being right, we learn really quickly how to keep them alive. It's amazing, and it's not just for parenting. That's your life, that's your career, anything you want. If you want to go out and learn how to do handstands, now's the time to do it. So reframing this transition into parenthood as an opportunity to level up your entire life, however you so fit.
Madison Smith:A lot of times we think children is a detriment to our career, to our professions, to our bodies, to our brains. I mean the implication of mother brain in itself, this idea that women are somehow cognitively negatively impacted. It's an opportunity for us to explore ourselves and an entirely new shift in our lives. And I think the same thing is true in peri and menopause. If we could see these places where we feel the most physically vulnerable, the most physically outside of ourselves, not as setbacks but as opportunities. Yes, your dream storm, that would be my dream storm.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love it. I love it. I hope people listening can really take that in and, however it applies to changes happening in their life right, and I know sometimes we can go to that. You know the character for crisis is also opportunity and things can feel trite in that way. But to really step into this possibility for, like, change is happening, transformation is happening, so can we make sure that we're not just seeing the ways that that feels hard or harmful, can we also explore?
Lisa Danylchuk:It makes me think of that breath you mentioned, like taking that breath all the way into the back of your pelvis. It's like this, like expand in in two directions of okay, this is hard, okay, this is amazing, like what, what about that? And also just opening our minds to possibility, which is a huge step in and of itself, because when we're in a place where we're very stressed or we're needing to be really focused taking care of a human right, it can be easy to kind of have tunnel vision rather than have just even a moment of opening or spaciousness or possibility for menopause and paramenopause too, which is something I'd love to talk more about here. Whole season, whole year.
Madison Smith:I'll probably do a whole decade in a couple years.
Lisa Danylchuk:The podcast is all about menopause and paramenopause. What happened? How old is Lisa?
Madison Smith:Well, I just wanted to share a little anecdote from my experience too. After I had my son, I didn't want to sing. I had lost that joy for singing and on one hand, it was because I didn't feel good in my body right, my body was injured. My body didn't feel good, but the desire to sing wasn't there and I spent so much time beating myself up because I felt like I should want to do this thing I've always wanted to do, and it took me years to come back to it. Years, and that's a lot of energy and time. And I think that's just one example of how the transition, such a big transition, into parenthood can feel so ungrounding to us, and the only thing we have to tether us back to our reality is what we knew. But instead of beating ourselves up when those things don't fit, giving ourselves the space to let go and open up to what else might be available.
Lisa Danylchuk:Right, and that really fills full circle to how we started this conversation around. Instead of reaching back, being responsive to what's true now and that's such a powerful practice in trauma therapy and, I'm imagining, in your coaching, in so many practices Okay, well, what's actually happening now? Because we can get really in our heads about what's supposed to be or what was or what will be, and this is the path. It's like, well, what do you have? What it looks like for someone else? It this way. Or the book says seven steps this way, and I love a good structure when it works.
Lisa Danylchuk:But when we bump up against it and it's not working, well, what actually do you want and need right now? And it's so interesting that something you've loved became something that you weren't feeling the joy in. I imagine that's quite a reckoning and a process. I mean, I've heard you sing recently your voice, by the way, my goodness, woman, like it is so amazing and beautiful and angelic. I know that's probably overused in your world. Oh, the voice is angelic. I'm like, literally angels are singing right now. When I hear you sing, it's so amazing. So, yeah, anyone who has the opportunity to perform, I'm just going to highly recommend it. Good for the soul, get some, you know, very inspiring. As someone who's always loved to sing but like my highlight is performing little mermaid at Molly's show, I would love to just like borrow your body for a day and be able to do that.
Madison Smith:You do can have pipes like this If you just breathe into your pelvis just breathe into the back of your pelvis.
Lisa Danylchuk:You too can have a little pedantic, but it's probably more true than that you can have soprano pipes like this right, I'm probably more of an alto, but you know, what would you say to someone who's listening? Maybe they're going through a big change. Maybe that change is the change into parenthood and they're just looking for some kind of next step in healing. How would you give them a little bit of support, direction if they're looking for it? I know we're just talking about intuition, so the direction might be right back to themselves. What would you say to someone?
Madison Smith:First and foremost, you don't have to do it all. Say to someone, first and foremost, you don't have to do it all. Yes, hallelujah, hey, there's a lot of energy out there around doing all of the things Our bodies can't physically do, all the things. I think rest is so entirely underrated and breathing is a form of exercise. Those two things for me. So you can rest and you can breathe, and that is a form of movement, that is a form of muscular activation. Two things for me. So you can rest and you can breathe, and that is a form of movement, that is a form of muscular activation, that is a way of connecting with your body, that's a way of calming your nervous system, that is a way of moving fluids through your body. It is such a powerhouse move that is so underrated. So, yeah, if you're going through a place of transition, reach out to support, but also don't be afraid to do less and rest and touch in with who you are now. What's true now, what feels right now? And start with that day by day.
Lisa Danylchuk:I love it. And when you talk about rest, it feels so important with parenting, because many people lose a lot of sleep for a number of years, and so if you can't get a full night's sleep like I definitely did not get a full night's sleep last night I probably got interrupted six times, which is not typical but happens right. There are certain nights where, for whatever reason, something's going on and you're like, oh, here I am awake again. Oh, this time it's not so bad. Oh, this time I'm really drowsy. What's going on? Right, and so rest, for me too, it has become. I've always been a proponent of it. But it's like finding moments of rest can be so powerful. And if you're in bed and you can't fall asleep, can you rest? Can you breathe?
Lisa Danylchuk:I just did that the other day. I'm not someone who usually has a hard time falling asleep, but I was in bed and I was a little bit wired and everyone else was sleeping. I was like this is like prime time. Everybody else is sleeping, come on. So I just started doing a longer exhale, which you know from the physiology of breathing and from yoga. It tends to be more soothing, and I think I got to. Four breaths is the last thing I remember, which is that's impressive, right Like. And then I woke up the next day and didn't remember till noon that I took some deep breaths and micro rest right Any little window of it, and some of that is the permission to do less.
Lisa Danylchuk:Some of that is that let's not try to do it all. Let's try to find what the most essential need is and meet it, get the support that feels best. We were talking earlier about having different providers and experts on your team and really trusting the intuition of that. I mean, there have been people I've worked with that have been really helpful for some things. And then I'm done, right, and then move on. Or let that go, release that and make space for nothing, or make space for something else.
Madison Smith:It's that, taking ownership of your experience, yeah, I love it For yourself and for your body.
Lisa Danylchuk:What's next for you? What are you offering? Are you writing a book? Are you going to write a book? Are you going to sing a book?
Madison Smith:I'm going to sing a book. I had thought about writing a book, although it would probably be something very specific to singers, I don't know. I'm actually kind of shifting my focus lately and doing a lot more in-person work here in San Francisco and hosting workshops specifically for mothers. I've been doing a lot more work around body love, body image, body confidence, because all these things are interrelated, and I might actually start rolling out a program for teens as well Beautiful. I did one recently for a couple of teenage girls and I think that's something that could be really valuable for these tender babes.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, how could people get in touch with you if they want to follow your work or work with you directly?
Madison Smith:Great. Yeah, my website is madsopranocom and that's my tagline for Instagram and Facebook. I'm not as much on Tiki Tokis, but you know it's there, just in case. Yeah, hopefully you can find me, or you can find me via Lisa Yoga. Lisa Yoga Lisa has your number. Yeah, I'm looking forward to doing more in-person workshops here in the city and trying to build more community here. So, particularly for anyone in the bay area, definitely would love to see you and reach out yes, I love it.
Lisa Danylchuk:Last question what brings you hope?
Madison Smith:oh, god you know, looking in my son's face right, I know the world is a scary place right now in a lot of ways for many people, but this is temporary and someday our children are going to be running the show and we have the opportunity to cultivate a new reality.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, we can dream storm it. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing yourself and your work. I think it just brings up so many different avenues coming together and more questions. I'd love to hear from people in the comments. If you're listening and you have a question or a thought you want to share, post it in the comments or you can email us at podcasthowyoucanhealcom. Thank you, madison. Thank you, lisa. Such a pleasure. Thanks so much for listening. Now I'd love to hear from you how has becoming a parent shifted your experience of life, or what massive life transitions have you experienced and how did you feel supported through them? Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube or find me on Instagram at HowWeCanHeal.
Lisa Danylchuk:Don't forget to go to HowWeCanHealcom to sign up for email updates as well. You'll also find additional trainings there, tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, spotify, audible or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the shows you love most with all your friends. Visit howwecanhealcom forward slash podcast to share your thoughts and ideas for the show. I always love hearing from you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Before we wrap up for today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions. It's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own and opinions can change. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today and everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the fur babies while I record. Last but never least, I'd love to give a special shout out to my big brother, matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you here.