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How We Can Heal
A podcast to share deep conversations about How We Can Heal from life’s toughest circumstances.
How We Can Heal
Decolonial & Liberation Psychology with Dr. Thema Bryant
What does it truly mean to show up whole and authentic in a world that encourages fragmentation? Dr. Thema Bryant doesn't just talk about integration—she embodies it as a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister leading transformative work in trauma healing and relationship building.
Dr. Bryant shares her excitement about merging different aspects of her identity and work, challenging the notion that we must compartmentalize ourselves based on context. "I'm excited about not being segregated within myself and with other people, but to be inviting for us to engage with our whole selves," she explains. This radical authenticity creates ripple effects, encouraging others to bring their full humanity into spaces where they've previously felt silenced.
Our conversation explores the powerful frameworks of decolonial and liberation psychology. Decolonial psychology deconstructs harmful colonial impacts—extraction, dehumanization, and power imbalances—while liberation psychology builds a vision for collective freedom. Dr. Bryant challenges the field's arrogance in assuming psychotherapy is the only path to healing, calling for cultural humility and recognition of diverse healing traditions that have sustained communities for generations.
Perhaps most provocatively, Dr. Bryant calls for mental health professionals to embody the healing they claim to facilitate. "I would love us to actually be well," she says, noting how many practitioners suffer from self-erasure and neglect. She critiques training systems that preach self-care while penalizing boundary-setting, and challenges the field's silence on systemic issues affecting mental health.
From the healing power of arts and cultural practices to the importance of releasing relationships that don't serve us, Dr. Bryant offers practical wisdom for navigating our interconnected existence. She reminds us that "liberation is interwoven, it is collective. It cannot be on the backs of other people's bondage."
The conversation closes with a vision of a world with "more ease in our bodies, more ease with each other, more ease in our spirits," while acknowledging the ongoing need for intentional resistance against harmful patterns. Dr. Bryant's integration of psychology, spirituality, arts, and justice work offers a roadmap for authentic, holistic healing that honors our full humanity.
Join us for this soul-nourishing conversation that will transform how you think about healing, relationships, and creating meaningful change in our complex world.
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast. Today, our guest is Dr Thema Bryant. Dr Thema Bryant is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist and minister who's leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas and overcoming stress and oppression. She completed her doctorate in clinical psychology at Duke University and her postdoctoral training at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence program, and is currently a tenured professor of psychology in the Graduate School of Education and Psychology at Pepperdine University, where she directs the Culture and Trauma Research Laboratory. Dr Tama has received countless accolades and awards, including the 2013 American Psychological Association Award for Distinguished Early Career Contributions to Psychology in the Public Interest, and in 2023, she received the Silverman Lifetime Achievement Award for Social Justice in Psychology. Among her many leadership positions, she served as president of the American Psychological Association in 2023. Dr Tama has written many books, most recently Matters of the Heart, which encourages readers to build authentic and fulfilling relationships with themselves and the people in their lives. Today, we talk about creating lasting positive change within the field of psychology. Dr Tama shares how embracing our whole selves can bring healing and how key principles of decolonial and liberation psychology can help us address harm and promote healing across contexts. She shares tools, stories and reminds us of the ways in which hope is at the foundation of all mental health work. I'm beyond thrilled to share this conversation with you today, so please join me in welcoming Dr Tama Bryant to the show.
Lisa Danylchuk:The more you learn about trauma, the more you see it everywhere. It's a superpower to see it, and it's also necessary to see beyond it. This fall, I'm offering a new class Freedom from Trauma. In it, I'll describe why it's essential for us to identify trauma and how we can approach healing in a way that we don't end up swimming. In it You'll learn simple, not always easy perspective and practices to help you move out of the trauma vortex and stand in something stronger and more powerful than the impacts of harm. I'm looking forward to sharing what I know with you in this new way. Visit howwecanhealcom forward slash freedom from trauma to register for the training. Dr Thema Bryant, so excited to have you on the how we Can Heal podcast Welcome.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for the conversation.
Lisa Danylchuk:So I saw your plenary at the ISSTD conference and I was blown away by it, thought everyone needs to hear this and of course we can't repeat all of that now. But I'm curious for you, with all of the work that you're doing. I see you on social media. You've been president of APA and other organizations. You are out there. You are a force for joy and love and authenticity and connection and all these beautiful things and I feel like we all need that all the time and we really need it right now.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, so I'm wondering for you what's felt the most alive in your work lately? What are the ideas, the thoughts, the conversations that feel most alive for you right now?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah, what I am really thrilled about in this season is the integration of the different aspects of my work and the different aspects of my life.
Dr. Thema Bryant:So I'm an artistic person, I'm a spiritual person, of course, a mental health person, and in earlier seasons of my life those were very kind of separate communities. So, you know, I would spend time with creatives, I would spend time with people of faith, I would spend time with mental health professionals and, you know, can speak each of those languages very comfortably and fluently those languages very comfortably and fluently. But it has been a beautiful journey of merging all of that and being present with all of that at the same time and seeing the ripple effects of that One. Most of us are multi-layered and so it becomes kind of contagious and comforting when we raise these different aspects of ourselves, then people can join in and say, like me too, right, or this is my art, or this is my faith walk. And I'm excited about not being segregated within myself and with other people, but to be inviting for us to engage with our whole selves.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, and when we do that? I've heard you mention people coming up and whispering things to you, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant:It's so lovely because, you know, we have directly and indirectly been given the message that we have to leave ourselves in the margins and what I have found is the more we show up authentically. Instead of that being a closed door for other people, it becomes an invitation. When I was president of the American Psychological Association, one of the days of the convention we invited people to wear attire or pins or jewelry that represented some aspect of their identity, and I remember I was so moved by one of our Jewish colleagues who shared that convention was her first time wearing the Star of David to convention to feel safe enough to be present in who she is, enough to be present in who she is. And you know, that's what it's about. I think people's fear is that if I announce that and I have on African attire, then everyone else will feel somehow suppressed or silenced or not welcomed. But like we all get to be the fullness of who we are, whatever that is.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, and it can give encouragement. I was going to say permission, but there's like a I don't know false sense of separation and power in that Right, and it can give encouragement. I was going to say permission, but there's like a I don't know false sense of separation and power in that Right, but it can just give encouragement. Hey, here's who I am, and then who's maybe tucked away this way or that way? Oh, me too In this other way.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yes, yes, it's beautiful.
Lisa Danylchuk:You're teaching in a school of education, right? Yeah, well, it's education and psychology.
Dr. Thema Bryant:It's a combined department.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm curious too about that integration with psychology and education, because I feel like what you're doing is taking all the depth of the clinical awareness and work and then just putting it out in books and in talks. Everybody, take this, run with it, take what it needs, keep it going, bring it to therapy, bring it wherever you're going, but there's something about this education element of psychology that also feels really important right now.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Right Part of it reflects that model of decolonial or liberation psychology which is for us not to be elitist with our knowledge or information, that it's not just for the academy, to the few who can subscribe to these journals or even understand our jargon, that it is not just for those who have the financial means or access to therapy. But how do we share our science? And so, for me, great ways to share it are the books, social media, the podcast, and to make it accessible and usable To me. There's liberation in that.
Lisa Danylchuk:And your talk at the ISSTD. You talked about decolonial psychology and you focused really on liberation psychology. So I want to break those down a little bit for listeners. Some people are familiar, Some people might not be. Break those down a little bit for listeners. Some people are familiar, some people might not be. You define decolonial psychology as deconstructing the harmful impacts of colonialism so that we can see the truth of the harm that's happened. That's right. Is there anything more you want to say about that? Because then I want to talk full in to liberation psychology.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yes, yes. So you know, we can think about what it means to colonize. To colonize is to extract, to take, to dehumanize, demean, to use, right, not for the benefit of those who are being used, but for the benefit of those in power. And so, when we understand what colonialism is, decolonizing should not be controversial, right? So for people who are like, ah, I'm against that, you're against what, you're against stopping extraction, right, you're against stealing people's resources, like what is it you're against? And so I brought in that term because I think legally or politically it can make sense to people. But I also mean it in terms of in psychology, right. So we can have very narrow, arrogant notions about healing.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Healing, you know, to even think and I say this as someone who has been to therapy, who provides therapy, who provides training for future therapists but for us to believe that, in all of human history, that the only way to heal is through psychotherapy is just outrageous, right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Like you know, therapies are relatively, in a traditional sense, the way we think about it.
Dr. Thema Bryant:It's a relatively young field and in many countries there may be like less than five psychologists in the space.
Dr. Thema Bryant:So to decolonize is also for us to have humility, cultural humility to say yes, we know the things that we know, and there are many, many ways that human beings have not only survived but thrived and healed and flourished, and so for us to see ourselves in that landscape, not as the only road, and in a lot of our curriculum so there's the saying like decolonize the curriculum, that when we name, like who are the great minds in psychology, and if that list is only white, straight, able-bodied men, then like we're missing it so we're not adding other names to do them a favor.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Right, it's not tokenism, it is like the richness, the wealth of the field that if you really want to be of service to the world, then we want a psychology that's informed by the world, and many times those readings, that literature has not been mandated nor amplified or highlighted, and so then we are. I call it half healing. You know, it's not that these things that are highlighted don't work at all, it's just they're not the only way. And so we want to prepare people to have like a full toolkit of all of the different rich ways that we can go about this healing work.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it's so important that you mentioned. People have been healing throughout time and in so many ways, and oftentimes new modalities come up and then people go oh, that's kind of like what people have been doing for a long time over here and like what people have been doing for a long time over here, and it's like what people have been doing for a long time over there.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, sometimes there's a connection or a nod to it, but not always, and I always felt like man. I wish I could just live in a small group of people and just be the person in the corner over here that people came to to talk to when they were upset, like I don't need to have an office. No-transcript community.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah, you know the way we're trained. It's like a bad thing that, like you, might run into somebody in a store right Like oh no, they saw me.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh my goodness, what are we going to do?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Versus. You know, I remember one of my first positions after I graduated was at Princeton University in student health services, but particularly a program called SHARE to address sexual assault and partner abuse and harassment based on sexual orientation. And I just remember like the more campus events I went to, the better, because then people see you just being human and are like, oh, I think that's someone I could talk to. And so you know, it's not like running and hiding that we only exist in these four walls, but to be approachable and accessible.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, it's much more the humane and the human side right, and there's like a clinical, scientific side, and I've heard you talk about this like, well, yeah, we want to be informed by science 100% and we don't want to be stifled by it, like we're full humans, just like earlier, integrating all these parts, bringing your voice, bringing song, bringing dance bringing spirituality and not feeling like we have to talk.
Dr. Thema Bryant:I was telling students in my classes past semester you are the secret sauce right. We're going to teach you these models, these interventions. There are some sentences or scripts you might remember, but all of that has to wash through the authenticity of yourself. We know the big predictor in terms of what's helpful is the relationship, and people don't build relationship just based on your techniques. They are building relationship based on your personhood. So like be present.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah yeah, it's not just AI telling you to say more about that.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh, oh, my goodness. I heard recently I know this is a whole other topic, but I heard recently someone say that they were studying some mental health AI and there were big problems with some of them. But one of the funny problems was that it brought it back to the mother way too much, it's like. Tell me more about your mother. What did your mother say to you?
Dr. Thema Bryant:So, yeah, right, some things have not changed. You know, blaming and shaming women.
Lisa Danylchuk:Right, yeah, so let's talk a bit about liberation psychology and maybe we can talk about, you know, feminism in there too. I guess you just brought that up and there's a lot going on with being a woman in the world, being a parent in the world. But liberation psychology, as you described it in the lecture I attended, you were talking about it as a roadmap, right, Like, where are we going? Okay, so we look back and we give a nod, we acknowledge the harm of colonialism, past and present. We look at that, we see it for what it is. That's a very important and helpful step. And then and there was a word you used it was like a bird flying forward and looking back.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Sankofa. Sankofa, yes, that's beautiful. So you know, sankofa is a West African symbol, a bird flying forward and looking back. And the idea is, as we progress, we don't forget those who are still coming up behind us, so that we can create the way for them, so we can meet people where they are. And so, with decolonial work, as you mentioned, we're deconstructing, and some people have critiqued that like well, that still centers colonialism, right? So you know, the partner to that is liberation, which is what are we building?
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant:We don't want to only center what is wrong, but to get a vision, for you know, what would it look like for me as an individual to be free, what would it look like for the members of my family to be free? What would it look like for members of my community to be free? And what would it look like for people who don't mirror my reflection to be free? What would it look like for members of my community to be free? And what would it look like for people who don't mirror my reflection to be free? Because sometimes what we have gotten into is people want freedom for themselves, but no one else, which is just privilege, right? It's not real. You know, liberation is interwoven, it is collective. It cannot be on the backs of other people's bondage.
Dr. Thema Bryant:And so for us to think through what that looks like, what that feels like, and to help facilitate that process, which shows up in many, many different ways. We can think about post-traumatic growth, we can think about positive psychology, that we are not only focused on symptom cessation or distress reduction, but what will it look like for people to live fully, freely, abundantly, and then to go about actively doing that work, to co-create it?
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, so we look back, we acknowledge the harm that's been done, that is still having an impact. We also acknowledge the journey, like you said, folks who are maybe just picking up on oh, I have experienced trauma. What is this? I'm starting to unpack it. And then we continue to look forward and carry forward. When you think about liberation psychology, what vision comes to mind for you of where the field could go, the field of mental health, in however many handful of years? What would you like it to look like?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah, I would love us to embody the thing that we're supposedly facilitating right, you know, to not be these like stressed out mental health professionals angry, aggressive, divisive, irritable, shut down. I would like us to actually be well. You know, and many of us, whether we can think about clinics. We've worked in research labs, we've worked in faculties, we've served on, have encountered a lot of people who, as a result of self-erasure, self-neglect, are actually not doing well. And you know, I think, for our students and early career people you know, I named that for them because I can remember how it's startling, because I think when I went into the field you just have an I had an assumption that people who chose to do this work would have done some work right, that you weren't just like reading those articles for other people, but to have like some self-awareness and insight.
Dr. Thema Bryant:So you know, because I have degrees both in psychology and in religion and spirituality, I'm always struck by going to conferences that are either faith-based or psychology-based and it feeling so tight and heavy. Yes, yeah, what could we possibly really be doing in the world when we are so undone ourselves? Yeah, ourselves. So that's a part of what my hope is, and also for us to release this notion that it's just all about the individual, and we think that that's like honoring our field. If you talk about anything besides the individual, people will say, oh, you're like sociology or your social work or your political science, and it's to be unaware, especially in this year we're in to not be aware that the outside affects the inside. It's just unbelievable. So I would love us as a field to experience and encourage healing and wellness for ourselves, and I have visited a number of programs where students are told the importance of self-care but then are given a structure that does not allow for it, are penalized if they dare try to set a boundary.
Dr. Thema Bryant:I mean our system is very broken, our internship and training system, just the fact that it is routine that people who have faced the most devastation are the most likely to get people who are untrained. It's already like this is a broken system that the people who are the highest functioning and therefore maybe have more access to resources get the most experienced of us work to do. You know, the American Psychological Association passed guidelines for the ethical treatment of graduate students. I think that that was controversial, that, like, some people were fighting against that. It's like what is happening. So we have both our internal wellness into our systems to remake and recreate and to train people to be attentive to the bi-directional relationship between us and the world in which we live, and that includes, you know, training around policy and advocacy.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:You know, yeah, there's so many layers to that that you're speaking to and weaving together. There's the exploitation of students, right, and we were just talking about colonialism and the expectation there and the harm done there. And the fact that people are pushing back towards the ethical treatment of students speaks volumes, right, why would we not? And I've actually known people who've been in programs that felt traumatic and toxic.
Lisa Danylchuk:I've taught yoga for a number of years and people often ask me about when people get triggered in a yoga room and assume it's going to look a certain way Like someone's going to be really jittery. One of the most visibly dysregulated people who's ever shown up in a public yoga class of mine in a studio I have always I worked with, I stood really grounded, right next to them. I softly checked in in a supportive way, you know, just let them have their process, tried to manage the rest of the room because people were distracted, you know, trying to keep the focus. They came up after the class and said thank you so much. I yeah, so you know, and I've taught in jails, in prison programs, all over the world.
Lisa Danylchuk:And yes, that's not seeing that in the, but it's really interesting that and I think, important that you're pointing out we need to model this.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yes, Integrate this. And the thing is in the story you told yes, it's N of one. But if you told that to any group of graduate students, they wouldn't be shocked. No, they wouldn't be like oh, what were they distressed about?
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, they're working hard, they're going to school, they're not getting paid, they're paying a lot of money all kinds of, and you're folding in so many layers, which I think this is really important and and I was always more attracted to like integrative programs, because even when you're doing like a psychology experiment on rats, you're looking at how the environment impacts them. So like if we're not looking at how the environment impacts everyone else, I think we've got a problem.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Absolutely, Absolutely. I say you know we can ask these super personal questions about people's sexuality, about their drug use, all of these things, and then if you say to ask about a stereotype or harassment or stigma and they'll say, oh no, that's political, I don't want to be political. Are you kidding? Like that's political. Your silence is political.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant:So folding in awareness of economics, of context, all the different layers, because it shows up in all of our systems. Marginalization shows up and now, especially, heart goes out to our researchers who are being given this list of words that the federal government doesn't want to fund and to see like, for those who weren't in an uproar, that race was on the list. To see trauma on the list right Victims is on the list of things they don't want to fund. So this has caused people who solely identified as scientists to say, oh, I actually have a political agenda. The agenda is to be able to do this work for the betterment of society, to be able to enhance people's lives. So you know, even if I have been silent before, this silence is not going to protect the field.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, so what would you say to someone who's struggling to find their voice in that?
Dr. Thema Bryant:resist marginalization, resist dehumanization, and there are multiple ways to do that, because oppression is interdisciplinary. It attacks us on all different levels, so the resistance is on all different levels, and so then you find you know what is the pathway that aligns with you, that matches maybe your sphere of influence, that matches your personality. There are, you know, different ways that we can do that. So some people will go out marching with signs and you'll see, as I was saying, sometimes now, more than marches, you'll see scientists you know out there holding their signs, or the APA releasing statements to say this action that's being taken goes against the science that we know. So it can be these kind of public statements. It can also be, of course, with our voting to, not only on a federal level, on a local level and organizationally, to put people in positions of power who acknowledge context and who embody a valuing of humanity. Right, you know, across identities. So we can also think about. One of the things I appreciate are people in the field who are actually running for office. We have information that not everyone can access or wouldn't even know to look for.
Dr. Thema Bryant:In Los Angeles, where I live, they have something called neighborhood councils, and the neighborhood council is the mediator between the community and city council. And so, a couple of years after I moved out here, I decided to run for the neighborhood council, and the seat that they had open was on education. And so, you know, I did my research, because you have to make a speech before the election, so I went on a website. The website is called Great Schools and it rates all the schools on a scale one to 10, based on these different criteria. And so the neighborhood that I was living in there was no school in our neighborhood that had over a four.
Dr. Thema Bryant:If you go a couple blocks down the road to like our neighboring community, they have eights and higher. And so, you know, I say that to start my statement about how we need to, you know, support our schools, address our schools. But I didn't even get to the solution because the committee this is, the people who are already on neighborhood council interrupted me because they wanted to know where did I get those numbers from? How are you, our neighborhood leaders, and you don't know where the data is right. So of course they can't advocate for us because you don't even know that we're in like. This is a crisis.
Lisa Danylchuk:Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:So I say that to say as mental health professionals, whether psychologists or other mental health professionals, we get trained in a skill set that can benefit our communities, whether you want to be the front person or whether you're going to provide research to city council that will help inform their decision making. So they are all different ways for us to engage.
Lisa Danylchuk:There's something integrative in that modeling that you're describing too, of branching out across disciplines, of building relationships. No one of us is able to do it alone, obviously, and so building relationships, but also stretching out, especially if someone finds themselves in the comfort of the small four walls right, like just putting a toe out first and then your whole arm and leg, and yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant:I'll say along those lines you know, one of the things I, you know, provide training for our students then is one, to think about getting published, and then two, in your publication to have policy implications. Yes, right, because some people are like, oh you know, I don't want to go to city council, that's fine. To go to city council, that's fine. But to recognize, even if my article is a case study right of a client, like, what are the implications for that for clients who may have a similar experience? So I feel like that's a way, in terms of people in their comfort zone, that we can still be true to our science, or however people want to think about that, but to consider the ripple effects of what you have found is helpful.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, I remember even 20 plus years ago, looking at graduate programs and having a hard time finding ones that felt like it was going to connect out more into the community or into creating some kind of change, and finding ones that were like social innovation and change, and then looking and being like this is all math, like yeah, I could do some of that, but I want to do right.
Lisa Danylchuk:I don't just want to build graphs Like I want to relationships, and so it's encouraging to think about just writing policy implications or even the way we design studies right. I mean, we're doing research where we looked at programs that were super successful and pulled out qualitative data like what's working well here.
Lisa Danylchuk:Then funders, anyone who's looking at how do I maximize my input in this community? Look for these mentorship relationships and look for this unique fit and look for these themes that we're seeing that are helping people be successful. So we can do this in research, we can stretch out and build relationships, maybe even run for office ourselves. And then I feel like there's this time that we're in where we're hopefully building this humanitarian, healing momentum, spreading love and education and dignity and all these things. And so what do we do in the meantime when we feel like maybe larger forces of power don't have our back or, you know, it can feel like the difference between biking with the wind behind you and biking with the wind in front of you. Yes, I'm wondering if you ever feel that way or what. Yeah, oh, all the time. I mean it. Just it seems like you are joyfully riding your bike every day.
Lisa Danylchuk:It's on a celebrate that, and yeah when it just feels hard to be standing up for something that might feel obvious, like ethical treatment of graduate students especially if the persons who are holding a lot of power are pushing a different agenda.
Dr. Thema Bryant:You can feel alone or powerless, and so finding like-minded people is such a gift. So, whether that is in your workplace and again this can be globally, federally or even locally you know, I think about times. I've worked places that were not a healthy workplace and just having like someone in the room I could catch eyes with it makes all the difference. Like we're going to talk afterwards, but I need to know like someone else is seeing, like what is happening here, so that you know social support, community support, makes a big difference. And then you know, remembering history, you know that this is not the first time that the ideas and the values we have have not been reflected in leadership, and so you know part of it.
Dr. Thema Bryant:You know I love historians to learn from history, right, when people may not be exactly the same, but when people face a parallel circumstance, how did they navigate? How did they take care of themselves, how did they work toward change collectively and strategically? So learning from history. And then I'll say, from a spiritual perspective, and even if someone is atheist or agnostic, I believe the mental health field is rooted in a faith that things can be better than they are right now. Yeah, that's why we you know, why we do the research, why we do the practice, why we're teaching is it's a hope, right, and some have talked about it as a radical hope, and it's radical when it's in the face of, like, everything that's saying that's not possible.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Right. So to nourish and feed our spirits, so that we can remember why we're here and what we're doing. And then I think one of the skills that therapists teach that can be very helpful for us is learning how to count the small wins, because sometimes it's like finish line or bust right, that things can happen that are actually good, but our eyes are so focused on but this and this and this, and it's not that I want to ignore that, but if that's the only thing that is praiseworthy, it's not sustainable. So we want to be able to see the small wins along the way that help to encourage us.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, yeah, so we can build momentum from the small wins, so we can also just appreciate our day-to-day life, right? Yes, knowing that we're doing something that feels meaningful, and not waiting for some ultimate perfection or some you know point of peaceful manifestation for everyone, you know it's. Yes, we're all interconnected, yes, there's a lot going on and, yes, you can enjoy eating that donut or you can appreciate making a beautiful quinoa salad or you can right For you to say, hey, I did that talk today and people were really engaged and there's a lot of love in that room.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah, and that's the thing you know. The scholars in post-traumatic growth talk about how growth and despair can coexist. Yes, Right, Because there's a lot going on. So you can say you know, as it relates to that, my heart breaks for that. You know, I'm celebrating my kid who made it on honor roll or whatever those layers there are to culture right. We're talking about culture within the mental health field.
Lisa Danylchuk:We're talking about culture within the US and the larger world. What are some ways that you've seen culture be really healing for people?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah. So a big part of culture is the arts, and I mentioned I love the arts. So it can be healing to sing, healing to hear and write poetry, healing to dance, and I love embodied healing, somatic healing, moving our bodies. So both art production and art appreciation, right, that, even if you're not the artist seeing artwork or hearing it, you know is therapeutic right. It can be very healing. It is self-expression, community expression, being seen, being heard, being known, being valued. I remember I was at a poetry coffee house in Boston. I used to live in Boston for my internship in postdoc and I shared whatever piece I shared that week. Someone came up to me afterwards and said your poems feel like church. I said that's good, that's what it's meant to be, right. You got three minutes to shift an environment, right. What is it you want to convey in that three minutes? And so, yeah, so art as a cultural reflection.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Cultural values can also be medicinal when they are intentional as it relates to humanity. One of the cultural values can be the collective right that we're interwoven, that we're interrelated, that our lives affect other people's lives, and so this sense of you know that I matter, I just by being a member of this community there are, you know, people who care about me, who care about my well being. You know, some of us think about that as chosen family or some it's like our cultural identity family. To again have that sense of support can be very helpful. To again have that sense of support can be very helpful. And you know, so we can think about cultural values, cultural arts and then community gathering, being present with each other, because sometimes when we're suffering we isolate, and so if we can remember the gift that can happen in each other's presence. You know, scientifically we can talk about that as co-regulation right, the ways that some people can just soothe our nervous system by us being present, even if we don't say anything.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are the colleagues I refer to the most, the ones that, when I see them, I'm just like, ah, thank you for existing we don't have to talk about anything.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Oh, feels good.
Lisa Danylchuk:And I have this vision, as you're talking of, almost like a summer camp kind of environment, like, even for adults. So many of us I'm very particular with where and how I get my news, but I feel like, as adults, the entertainment is TV or news or going online for those things and like what if it were dancing with your neighbors? What if it were even just like playing music or you know, like live music every night? You know like, if you do this as special occasions, I'm gonna go to a concert or this or that, but what if the everyday habit were singing?
Dr. Thema Bryant:What if the everyday?
Lisa Danylchuk:habit were dancing, and so all of us. I have to remind myself because I can get all up in my head like, oh, stop, just play some music.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Right, yes, so true. I remember I was blessed to go to a psychology conference in Puerto Rico and in the evenings just there's no special occasions, they just had like outdoor music, and so you know, you're just like listen to the music and dance I was going for broke just dancing, dancing, and yeah, it's healing, it's beautiful it is and I've seen that even at psychology conferences.
Lisa Danylchuk:Even ISSD has had bands and dancing. At the end it's like okay this is a step in the right direction. For sure, that's it.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Great, great, well people. We had flash mobs at the APA convention when I was president. My daughter did the choreography and people are like are we dancing at APA? Yes, yes we are.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, let's keep that going too. So you mentioned and you talk a lot about community care and self-care, not falling into this false dichotomy, like we have to pick one or the other. We are interwoven. We are also individual humans, like let's have a bubble bath and get paid maternity leave and like have a walk with a friend and all the layers, right, like we don't have to just pick one.
Lisa Danylchuk:And I know your book. You wrote Homecoming First and Matters of the Heart Second and there's it seems that there's that like relational progression, right, coming home to yourself, and I saw a clip of you I think it was from a while back where you were like let me just give some dating advice for those people in the crowd. Show up as yourself from day one, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Like just let them know if you don't make it then you don't.
Lisa Danylchuk:That's not. Don't, don't pretend like you do that's it.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Right, yeah, save a lot of time and then you can find who aligns, who matches with that.
Lisa Danylchuk:So true, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant:We're often pretending and I say that in a non-shaming way, because we're taught that we see, we observe that you get treated differently if you say the things people want to hear or if you dress the way people say you're supposed. You know, if you follow these rules, you may be rewarded but not fulfilled.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes. So, choosing that fulfillment, choosing that honesty, and it's not like any of us, is this one single entity being that static? Like we can evolve and change for sure.
Lisa Danylchuk:Like we can evolve and change for sure, but the intention to honor ourselves, yeah, first to come home to ourselves, right first, or have that as an anchor, and then to be in relationship. And I'm just aware, as we're talking, like there's so the layers of this. It's like I'm part ukrainian and they make these beautiful eggs, the easter eggs that layer out right the little. There's one inside, another one inside, another one inside, another one inside. And if we go down to, okay, the individual human and then in relationship and in family and in community and in country and in world, there's just these layers of things interacting when we talk about healing, when we talk about hope for positive change. So I'm curious, since your last book, matters of the Heart, came out, what are some conversations that are happening at that level around healing?
Dr. Thema Bryant:you know, attachment or healing in relationship, yeah, One of the chapters that really resonates with people is releasing people who don't love you, and I think you know many people struggle with that. You know they're just hoping that they can win people over, that they can convince them or that, if they love them hard enough and long enough, that you know somehow that somehow things will turn around. And so the importance of mutual reciprocal relationships and whether it's romantic or family or friendship, that when people are not choosing you to release them by honoring the truth, they have already made a decision. So you holding on is holding on to nothing, right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:They're not there, and so that has been an important part of healing. And then another area that has resonated with a lot of people is around harshness. Some of us grew up in difficult circumstances so, you know, can be in warrior mode, can be kind of hyper-independent, are hyper-vigilant, and so to heal, to allow space in our hearts, in our bodies, in our lives, for gentleness and that gentleness is not weakness, so that requires some unlearning definitely, yeah, yeah, and the gentleness inward with ourselves and the gentleness with others, even when there is an important boundary to set, even when it's okay.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm not feeling like this person gets me, is on my side, loves me, and I need to make some space. There are are ways to do that avoidantly. There are ways to do that confrontationally. There are ways to do that gently, not to say it's going to be smooth or perfect, but might be a little bit less edgy or softer, have less cleanup. Wow. So you mentioned earlier being a woman in the world or being a parent in the world. I'm also thinking about this letting go when there are kids involved or kids who are feeling the need to let their parents go. What would you say to someone who's facing some of those decisions where there's such a strong desire for attachment? It's one thing to say don't read the comments, right. It's one thing to say there's always going to be someone out there critiquing your work or someone who's in a bad mood, who wants to drop a bomb in the comments, and easier to let that go. But if it's someone in your family or someone where there's so much investment, yeah, yeah, so important.
Dr. Thema Bryant:And so you know, I think it's important therapeutically to start from the vantage point of, like, all of the options being on the table Right. So it may be we're going to leave things as they are and I'm just trying to figure out how to cope more so I don't get so distressed by it or I stop being disappointed when people continue to be the same way they are. So that may be like the acceptance and the coping strategies. The other end of the spectrum are people who say, for my mental health, or sometimes even for my physical or financial safety, I cannot be in relationship with this person anymore and so I'm removing them from my life. But then there's a whole area in the middle of that, which is you know, what would it mean for me to be in relationship with boundaries right, with a relationship with requirements, in relationship with standards? And I especially explore that with people who are suffering with the way things are but perhaps religiously or culturally or just by personality, have removed from the table the possibility of ending the connection right. Religiously, they may feel like I have to honor my parents, and it is a value of mine. So then, helping people to think through some curiosities. So, for example, let's say, your family member or relative doesn't treat you kindly or with respect, do you really have to spend every weekend at their house? Right, you know? Because even though, like, that's how we've always done it, everyone goes over all day Saturday, all day Sunday, you know. So ritual or tradition is not a rule. So, you know, let's consider one, the amount of time and the amount of access that we're giving people, and then the times that I am there. You know what would help it to feel better for me If there is a member of the family I feel safe with, to ensure that I'm seated next to them.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Some of us, you know you can volunteer to be with the kids. Some families have like the kids table or the kids room and say, yep, let me go over with the kids, it's less drama. Or you know I'm going to come late and leave early, and you know, I know people are going to talk about me, but that's okay, I just need to reduce my time. And then also, you can be explicit with your, with your request of saying you know I'm coming, but if someone does this or someone says this, I'm going to take my kids and leave. So then everybody knows that, and if they willingly still do that, well then you know, see you all next year, or maybe not. Right so to give ourselves cause. Sometimes we feel stuck and think there are no options and there could be some options.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, lots in the middle. Yeah, it's the cognitive distortion of all or nothing. Right, I've got to be totally enmeshed in this thing. That doesn't feel good, or I've got to leave, and there's boundaries in the middle and sometimes that's harder, which is why we go to the extremes, right, right, yeah, there are so many layers to your work and so many different themes. I've seen you touch on that.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'm like, oh, there's so much I want to talk about, and we're coming closer to time. You know Dr Jennifer Gomez, she introduced you at the ISSTD. I always shout her out. She talks about dreamstorming, going to the dream and then just living there for a little while and then we can pull some insights into the present. So I'm curious in your dream storm into a world where liberation psychology has been so downloaded and implemented, can you imagine a world where resistance is no longer necessary? And what does that world look like?
Dr. Thema Bryant:I think there are different forms of resistance, yeah, and I can imagine a world where it is less necessary. Okay, but the reason I would still say to have some aspect of it is just in our knowing of human beings, and so those that greed can creep in, those control things can creep in. And the thing that I'm mindful of is people who have exit religion because they say like it's controlling, and then they have these spiritual groups and the same hierarchy stuff shows up. Yeah, you know they're like who did you train with in yoga?
Dr. Thema Bryant:right exactly, oh, uh. So I would say I do imagine a world where we can have more ease in our bodies, more ease with each other, more ease in our spirits, where it is not perpetual warfare, and I welcome that. I dream it, but then also working to create it right, to make it so, and we can do that. All of us can play a role in co-creating a world where we don't just have to be in survival or combat mode.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, and when you say the resistance is still necessary, part of what I hear in that is intentionality is intentionality. Part of what I hear in that is power of knowing that whatever is going on outside, you can bring something.
Lisa Danylchuk:And even you know, as we're thinking about this, how do we grow into something that feels better for everyone, where there is more ease, where it's safe to be embodied, where we're not always in fight, flight, freeze or all these other reactions. It's like okay, well, we can have a sense of power and agency and we can create and acknowledge the times where we're connected, the times where there's joy. You mentioned earlier, too, having a few people decolonizing training in psychology. Can you give a shout out to a few names or theories you would love to see in textbooks and training programs?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yes, I am super excited. This timing is perfect. I was just co-editor of the new special issue released by the American Psychologist. It was one of my presidential initiatives and just came to press and it's Decolonial and Liberation Psychologies. I encourage people to read that special issue. And then there are books actually published by APA one on liberation psychology, one on decolonial psychology. I also co-edited a book with Lillian Comos Diaz on womanist and Mujerista psychologies, so the psychologies of Black women and Latinas. I encourage people to look at the work of Helen Neville around justice and joy, especially as we think about our trauma work. Judith Herman, talking about the. You know the ways in which victims define justice like. What does justice look like for people? And then the reclamation of joy.
Lisa Danylchuk:Mm-hmm, on that note, the reclamation of joy. What brings you joy today, dancing?
Dr. Thema Bryant:brings me joy today. In fact, this weekend I'll be traveling to visit my father, who's 82. And last year my mom transitioned and so I'm excited to still have my dad in the land of the living. And I'll say I still have joy as well about my mom's spirit, that her presence is definitely with me and I feel that and see that. And I have joy about those who are coming into the field, who are, you know, our students, our early career folks who are visionary and passionate. And because I do believe in the gift of being intergenerational, I have joy as I think about my mentors in the field, the ways in which they poured into me and continue to pour into me such a blessing.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, definitely. So where can someone go if they want to learn more and stay connected with you?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yeah, so my website is drthemacom D-R-T-H-E-M-A. If folks are on Instagram, I'm there as Dr D-R period Thema. The books I want to name in addition to the hardback and the digital, there's also audio books, and I was so excited that they let me read the books myself, and so the books are available. And then, of course, the Homecoming podcast, which is on YouTube, spotify, soundcloud, itunes.
Lisa Danylchuk:Nice, I love it. Thank you so much, dr Tama.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Can I ask you one more thing?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk:When Dr Gomez introduced you at ISSTD, she said okay, the floor is all yours, queen, and I was like oh, so nice. You said that she's like no, there's a story behind it. Do you mind sharing the story?
Dr. Thema Bryant:Absolutely so. My first name is Tama and it means queen, and my parents gave me that name. We're African-American and I feel it is such a gift that wherever I go, whether people want to or not, when they say my name, they are honoring me and I receive that as a treasure that my parents intentionally gave me.
Lisa Danylchuk:What a beautiful gift. Yeah so, Queen. Thank you, Dr Tema. So appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom with us.
Dr. Thema Bryant:Thank you for a beautiful conversation, wonderful questions and your great heart.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh, thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Oh, where you'll find me at how we Can Heal. Don't forget to go to howwecanhealcom to sign up for email updates as well. You'll also find additional trainings, tons of free resources and the full transcript of each and every show. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, spotify, audible or wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the shows you love the most with all your friends. Visit howwecanhealcom forward slash podcast to share your thoughts and ideas for the show. I always, always, love hearing from you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Before we wrap up for today, I want to be super clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions. It's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own and opinions can change. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today and everyone who helped support this podcast, directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and taking the fur babies out while I record. Last and never least, I'd like to give a special shout out to my big brother, matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here.