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How We Can Heal
A podcast to share deep conversations about How We Can Heal from life’s toughest circumstances.
How We Can Heal
When Dignity Meets Conflict: Tools for Healing Our Divided World
Ever feel like polarization makes meaningful conversation nearly impossible? Dr. Donna Hicks returns with transformative insights on navigating our divided world through dignity consciousness.
At Harvard's Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Hicks witnesses dignity violations daily yet remains steadfastly committed to her groundbreaking work. She reveals why these violations feel so viscerally painful – our brains process them identically to physical wounds – and offers practical tools for interrupting our instinctive reactions. Forget counting to ten; taking ten deep breaths actually changes your neurochemistry, creating space for thoughtful response rather than reflexive reaction.
The conversation explores what Hicks calls our "relentless ambivalence" as humans – we simultaneously crave safety through self-preservation and connection through dignity recognition. This tension leaves us constantly choosing which impulse will guide our interactions. When approaching difficult conversations, Hicks recommends genuine curiosity: "I'm really curious about how you arrived at your conclusions." This simple yet profound shift creates safety and honors the other person's inherent worth.
Most powerfully, Hicks shares her vision for a dignity-conscious society built on education and practice. From elementary schools to boardrooms to political chambers, she's witnessing growing receptivity to dignity-based approaches. Her nephew, recently appointed President of Ecuador's National Assembly, explicitly leads with dignity principles – proving these concepts can transform even the most contentious political environments.
For those struggling to connect with their own dignity, Hicks offers this bridge: recognize that unworthiness stems not from personal deficiency but from dignity violations experienced. "I'm worthy, no matter what" becomes possible when we understand "something bad happened to me" rather than "something is wrong with me."
Ready to transform your approach to conflict? Listen now to discover how dignity consciousness can heal our divided world – one conversation at a time.
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast. Today, our guest is Dr Donna Hicks. Dr Donna Hicks is a psychologist specializing in conflict resolution who has operationalized and popularized the concept of dignity. She's facilitated conflict resolution across the globe, worked closely with Archbishop Desmond Tutu for years and currently is an associate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs at Harvard University. She also offers training around the world on dignity, leadership and the role dignity plays in resolving conflict. Her two books Dignity Its Essential Role in Resolving Conflict and Leading with Dignity how to create a culture that brings out the best in people offer us language and a roadmap to help recognize and cultivate dignity within ourselves and our communities.
Lisa Danylchuk:Donna was a guest on the show in Season 4, and I wanted to bring her back to talk about how we navigate dignity violations and temptations to violate dignity. Dignity violations and temptations to violate dignity. Today she gives us tools to use amidst the moments of disconnect to help access our own dignity and infuse dignity consciousness into our lives. Please join me in welcoming Dr Donna Hicks to the show. So nice to see you again. How are you?
Donna Hicks:Oh gosh crazy busy. You know so much is happening here at Harvard. Talk about trauma. This has been just one insult after another, one massive dignity violation after the other.
Lisa Danylchuk:I always think of your work, but I'm thinking of it a lot more lately in terms of dignity violations, in terms of temptations to violate dignity.
Lisa Danylchuk:How does it feel to see so many dignity violations right in front of you and to have this body of work that you've put your heart, your mind, your soul into, your life, into? And I'm seeing dignity violations, I'm seeing temptations to violate, being eaten up like sugar morning cereal and I'm just like I'm thinking of your work and thinking of you and like how must that feel to have put so much work in and then just see things happening in front of you? It's kind of like when you understand trauma, you see it everywhere. And then when you understand and metabolize what dignity is like, then you see when it's working and when it's not. It's so much more apparent and in your face. So you've been on my mind and just thinking about how that must feel for you. So how does that feel to have put so much energy into this work and then to see so much of the opposite of what you're cultivating happening before your eyes?
Donna Hicks:Well, quite honestly, I feel like I've been validated at this massive level that we're watching. It's everywhere. It's in politics, it's, you know, in our streets, it's every. I mean, look what's happening in LA right now. But I do feel almost like, okay, yeah, I got that right, I got that right. This is what's happening to people, and these dignity injuries I mean we could call them trauma it ends up being the same thing. People are traumatized by having their dignity assaulted and so, on that level, just knowing, okay, I think I got this right.
Donna Hicks:And, lisa, I have had so many people from all over the world, people with whom I've worked everywhere, internationally and here in the US, you know, write to me or call me and say, hey, look, you know, we're seeing it right in front of our eyes, everything that you were trying to shine a light on, and right now it's everywhere. So, in that odd kind of way, I feel, okay, I got this right. Yep, I got this right.
Donna Hicks:Now the question next question is what are we going to do about it? You know, what do we do? And one of the things that I've discovered is that people gravitate toward are now, at this moment, gravitating toward my dignity work, because they're feeling it so personally and certainly professionally for many, like all my USAID friends and all the people who lost their jobs all over the world, and so people are feeling it, feeling that real sense of being violated, and know that there is an antidote, and they think of my work as an antidote to what they're seeing right now and what they want to learn it more. I mean, I'm getting so many requests to give talks and to create, you know do workshops for people, because it's just the pain has gotten to a point where it's almost intolerable to many people.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, to have those dignity violations happening in such a daily and almost mundane way, and I think a lot of people can feel the need to withdraw from even witnessing them, let alone being a part of them. And everyone finds their own way when there's a dignity violation happening. But one of the temptations you talk about is avoidance of conflict, and one of the elements of dignity is understanding. And so I think about those two where, yeah, we need to do what we need to do to take care of our energy and our lives and have boundaries and stay centered. And how do we address this, like, how do we move forward you?
Donna Hicks:know those two pieces that you put together the temptation to avoid conflict. We have that sort of hardwired in us. We hate conflict, we humans, but on the other hand, one of the elements of dignity, as you pointed out, is understanding that people really want to be understood. So I have actually spent a lot of time trying to manage that tension between those two and encourage people to reach out to someone that you know you have vastly different political views on, or just someone that you're, you know, experiencing conflict with, and what I have found is that, in order to have a conversation with, in this polarized world that we're living in, I think that a couple of elements of dignity are really at play. Certainly, the understanding was trying to seek a deeper understanding, but we also have to create safety too in order to have that conversation, because one of the reasons why we avoid conflict in that temptation is when we feel under threat. So that activates that temptation to avoid conflict. So what we have to try to work on and I say practice, practice, practice is the best way to address that threat and realize that this is just another human being, just like me. They may have different perspectives and different life experiences and therefore have come to different conclusions about the way the world works.
Donna Hicks:But at the end of the day, what I've found, when you create that sense of safety and by that I mean when you address someone and when you invite somebody to have a conversation you don't use that sharp tone of voice or, you know, that judgmental attitude you come in with a real curiosity that's the word I've been using over and over again Develop a curiosity for how this fellow human being ended up having such vastly different beliefs than you have.
Donna Hicks:And so, if we can create that mindset to begin with, try to genuinely be curious about why the person has evolved the belief system that they have, then what I and it's almost like magic, because what I say to someone hey look, we have vastly different views on politics and at the same time, I'm really curious about how you arrived at those points of view, and I'm sure there's a story that you have to tell about that, and I'm here to listen. I want to hear that story, I want to gain a deeper understanding of you and how you've arrived at your conclusions. And so just by approaching that, if you think about it, that is like an invitation to have your dignity honored.
Donna Hicks:I want to hear you, I want to experience what you've lived through. I want you to tell me you know. So it's kind of ironic that, even though I personally disdain maybe even the points of view, I can be really curious. I can say, okay, given what this person has been through and what they're telling me about how they arrived at this conclusion. Okay, I can still say, hey, look, I still disagree with it, but I can certainly understand your perspective. Now and thank them for that, say thank you for taking the time to explain all that to me. And you know it softens the edges oh yeah, lisa, big time.
Donna Hicks:And the first, the first attempt isn't always, you know, you get to the other side. But if you keep going with it and say, hey, look, why don't we do this again? Why don't we have another meeting, maybe next week sometime, and explore this more deeply, and at that point I would say, yeah, I'd like to explain to you too, so maybe you would gain a deeper understanding of my. I'd like to tell you what, where I'm coming from and how I've arrived. And usually they say, oh, of course. Of course I want to hear your point. So you know, tapping into that shared humanity is and demonstrating that you want to make this a safe conversation. You don't was. We're going to listen, to understand and speak to be understood. So, and I just apply that to these conversations, and you know, I mean quite honestly, lisa, some of them don't go so well. I mean, some of them are okay, maybe we've got somewhere, but so many of them really do, like I said, the edges get softened and yeah, it's really, it's quite, it's quite interesting.
Lisa Danylchuk:As you're talking, I'm visualizing these different words of like there's safety and there's threat, and there's dignity and empathy and connection, like all these different words that you've used dignity and empathy and connection, like all these different words that you've used and I'd imagine that the conversations that go better are the ones where some sense of safety is maintained, where there's not a big threat response in the other person, and in the trauma world we look a lot at threat and the neuroscience of it and what happens in our biology. The second, we don't feel safe, or when something does feel traumatizing, right, and even those micro moments where there's an expression on someone else's face where you don't feel seen or understood, and how that can shift a conversation. So I'm thinking about all of that and how I'd imagine the conversations that go better and the way you're describing this. I just keep thinking about what you write about connection, right, and the sense of dignity in terms of connection with yourself and your own dignity, right, valuing.
Lisa Danylchuk:This is where this is what I believe, this is how I've come to believe it, and then also the connection with the other person, because the way you even I'm like I want to write a script, a transcript here of like here's how to invite a conversation in a really honest way and just sit down and bring that sense of curiosity and an opportunity for connection. I think that it sounds so simple but it's clearly such a struggle in our world today to get to feeling safe enough to have those conversations. I have plenty of friends tell me oh, I, I'm trying to talk to people but it's really hard, or they don't want to talk or they just say no, we're not going there.
Donna Hicks:Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk:Like, okay, I'm all for boundaries, and what about connection and what about shared understanding? So yeah, those, those layers of connection. You know, real estate is location, location, location.
Donna Hicks:Connection, connection, connection, yes, and the layers of it and how we can practice that in everyday life. And I think what you just said is such a great example of that, eo Wilson, what I learned from him that there exists inside all of us human beings a desire to protect ourselves and self-preservation instincts. But on the other side of it, there's also an equally as powerful force within us, which is the desire for loving connections and connections. In my mind, the best way to connect with someone is to demonstrate that you see their dignity, that you see them as a person with inherent value and worth and there's biology behind that as well. But we also have this inborn desire to want that safety that comes from a nice connection with another person. I mean, threat and disconnect are like two sides of the same coin. You know, threat and disconnect. You disconnect when you feel that sense of threat, and so I loved that EO Wilson pointing that out. And he said what it does is it leaves us with a relentless ambivalence inside, he said, because you're always pulled one way or the other. And so, but I just love that framing. Okay, we're these wonderful creatures that love love and we love to be connected and intimate with. And I don't mean I'm not talking about love in the romantic sense. I'm talking about love in the sense that, wow, do I feel safe with this person? I feel this person sees me, I feel this person cares about what happens to me, I feel this person cares about what happens to me.
Donna Hicks:And so, you know, we humans have this inner struggle and if we don't understand that in a deep way, we won't be able to make the choice of connection over self-preservation, because that's the other thing EO Wilson said. We have to make a choice because those they're both aspects of who we are as human beings. But we have what did he say? We have the capacity to override that strong threat response that we feel and want to disconnect from people. And because, you know, we have this neocortex here, this executive functioning. It's not all about the amygdala and the desire for safety and protection, but this is the thing about what we both do.
Donna Hicks:We're using slightly different language, but I think it's really the same phenomenon that we have to make the choice for connection over self-preservation. And sometimes it's wise to make the self-preservation choice, sometimes it is wise to avoid a conflict. But if we know that that is part of something that has been with us ever since we were Homo sapiens. Roaming the savannah, we would say, okay, I can do better than this. Now I can connect with this person. Even if I don't, you know, even if I'm feeling a little threatened, I can still connect by honoring their dignity. So it's all about education, I think you know understanding trauma, understanding dignity violations, understanding and what I especially love and I know you do too is the neuroscience of it, because the neuroscience of a dignity violation is pretty alarming. Once you hear about it, the brain doesn't know the difference between a physical wound and a wound to our dignity. That's pretty alarming. So, yeah, there's a reason why we have all those avoidance patterns as well.
Lisa Danylchuk:And it makes me wonder too. I feel like there's this unpacking that your work gives such great language to, and that it focuses on the 10 elements of dignity. Let's practice this, and I always like to keep us oriented, especially in moments of confusion, to like, well, where are we going? What are we trying to build? So I think those elements really ground us, and we talked a fair amount about those in our last interview. There's an entire you wrote your entire first book about that.
Lisa Danylchuk:You have many talks about it, right, there's plenty of places people can go to digest those more. Then you go into the 10 temptations to violate and I love the language of that too and I love the inclusiveness of this is all of us, if you have a brain, if you ever feel threatened or go into defense or even the best defense is a solid offense right, if you ever go into that territory? Here's some things to reflect on, and so I'm wondering what you're seeing. We're talking about avoiding conflict, but are there other temptations to violate dignity that you feel like are louder right now in the world, that people are getting caught into without maybe even having the language for knowing what's happening?
Donna Hicks:Well, I think the very first one that I point out in that list of 10 temptations is the temptation to take the bait, to respond. You know, because we're so polarized now, it's like human to human temptation to try to seek revenge and to get even. I see that one a lot now that people are just not willing to, as I say, push the pause button and stop when you feel that desire. Like what did she just say to me? I'm going to get back at her, I'm going to get even here. She can't treat me that way.
Donna Hicks:If we don't recognize that that just leads to more violations and it's letting the bad behavior of somebody else determine how we're going to act. It's like a trigger response Okay, all right, she treats me that way, I'm going to treat her that way. That is what I'm seeing a lot, or I'm not really seeing it, so I'm seeing it on television a lot, but I'm hearing it a lot too from people who they call me up and they say I'm just so disappointed in myself. I just took the bait here when I had this political discussion with someone in my office and I just feel so bad. What should I do? So these alarming kind of reactions that we have, and sometimes we can't even, don't even think before we react. It happens so automatically that desire to lash back you know that.
Donna Hicks:I just heard a program on NPR the other day about revenge and how powerful in our brains, what a powerful brain response it is. When somebody comes at us and harms us, we want to seek revenge. We want that person to feel the same pain that we're feeling. It's such a human phenomenon, you know, it's a human reaction and again, until we learn this, until we understand those 10 temptations and know that these are hardwired and it's part of our ancestral legacy, you know, we've inherited these from our early ancestors, these threat responses.
Donna Hicks:But if we don't realize, oh my gosh, if I do respond by trying to get even, then this is going to just escalate this conflict beyond where it was in the beginning. So you know, we have to be wise, we have to be knowledgeable, we have to be able to stop ourselves and recognize what's going on internally before we lash out and say, okay, I don't want to go there, I'm upset with this person, I'm really upset that she talked to me that way, but I am not going to take the bait.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, I heard someone recently describe pausing as the intentional awkward pause, like just letting whatever just was said hang in the air for as long as possible, and I think there's real power to even that short of a pause right. I mean, sometimes taking a pause is 10 seconds to something hang in the air.
Lisa Danylchuk:Sometimes taking a pause is you know what we're going to, we're going to wrap for a moment, we'll come back to this or let's meet next week and talk again. So there's something about slowing things down, which is such a thing in trauma therapy to slowing things down and leaving space. And I think even in a moment of pause where someone is tempted to take the bait and this is something I can do, I'm sure you practice Anyone listening can just build that, that sense of dignity within yourself, like build out that land of dignity. Last time we were talking about putting it in the water. It's like build it from within and then share it out around you and it can transcend those layers between dignity for your own inherent worth, for how you interact with others and for something even greater than that.
Lisa Danylchuk:But if there's a moment where we want to take the bait, like it's real tempting, it could be really easy to step into that type of dynamic or the brain's lighting up. In that way, if we pause, things change right. Even just letting words hang in the air, the person who said them might actually start to connect what they're saying. Maybe not always, but there's an opportunity to just witness what's happening and there's an opportunity to make new choices right, or to even take that moment to access your prefrontal cortex and to stay rather than react. And that's such a thing I mean in the whole of my career there's always been, especially working with youth. When I was working in juvenile justice centers and places like that. There was such an emphasis bringing mindfulness there, bringing yoga there, such an emphasis on that pause, on like what if we can just learn to respond rather than react, so that weaves into the 10 temptations and navigating them. And there's so many layers to the different temptations but it sounds like with this one you're seeing a lot taking the bait.
Donna Hicks:Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. People are losing that space. You know, you said we have to create some space for that pause, and it's so true. The other little tool that I think we mentioned the last time I had a conversation with a neuroscientist and we were talking about this, about what happens when you get that biological impulse triggered, you know, like that fight or flight response triggered. What do you do? And I was saying, well, we should just count to 10. And she said, no, you know what Everybody thinks counting to 10 is the good thing, but I can tell you from a neuroscientist point of view that it doesn't work.
Donna Hicks:What works is when you take 10 deep breaths, because what's happening, you know, when you feel that impulse there's, she said, there's all kinds of cortisol, these hormones, running through your body and you have to stop and try to intercept that process where that stuff is triggering you to behave badly. But 10 deep breaths, it really does, and it doesn't have to be like a big deal, but you just, like you said, pause, breathe deeply, in and out, in and out, and it's remarkable how it can calm us down. And such a simple tool, we have what it takes to override these impulses. We do have what it takes, but we just have to learn them. We have to understand them Number one. We have to understand them, know that they're there and then figure out some techniques to calm down that amygdala that's on fire in our brains.
Lisa Danylchuk:And I know in the trauma world people are also looking now more so even at shock like that first moment, that milliseconds where our deep brain orients to a threat and and it might be these little impulses or things that happen before we even go into fight or flight. There's like an alert Right. So I think, tracking that, slowing things down, taking even one really slow quality breath if you can definitely five or 10, if you can maybe even more in some way maybe even one really slow quality breath, if you can definitely five or 10, if you can, maybe even more in some sense walk around the block and come back.
Lisa Danylchuk:So I'm curious for you if you could build a society where dignity is inherent and there's awareness of the 10 temptations to violate it. What would look different than what we have now? What would be there that's not there? What sort of tools or supports would people have?
Donna Hicks:Well, the first thing that comes to my mind and that's a wonderful question, I've never been asked that before but the first thing that comes to my mind is that if we're going to evolve out of this kind of biological self-preservation impulse, if we're going to evolve out of that, we need education, we need to understand ourselves, we need to know all of this that we've just been talking about, that we are hardwired for self-preservation and survival and when threat comes, we get triggered and we can behave completely differently than we would under circumstances that aren't threatening. So there's that, there's education. I think right now we're at a point where my colleagues and I I mean I have people all over the world working on this in their local communities how to bring this into a school system. So everybody develops this consciousness from a young age, and I'll tell you what. What we have learned is that young kids get this so quickly. They don't have the cognitive capacity to put words to it, but they know on the inside what it feels like to be mistreated. They have a deep, deep understanding and if you can give them the words, you know kid-friendly words. As one of my elementary school teachers says, you've got to give them kid-friendly words so they'll understand it.
Donna Hicks:But I think this is going to require education on a massive level. Everybody needs to. It's like ABCs. We have to add the D dignity when we're thinking about primary education, secondary education, university education and, on the other end of it, in the university. So, for example, I've been working for 10 years now with a professor at Fordham University his name is Michael Pearson on transforming business education. And this, the reason why this is so critical, is because business employs so many people that if the business world you know, like you know, faith communities have their congregants go to a church once a week, right For an hour maybe, but the business community people are in their workplace for at least 40 hours a week, if not more. So just imagine the power behind a culture within a workplace that is deeply understanding of these dignity issues and of these threat responses, and if you could get a leadership team. This is why my second book, leading with Dignity, is why I wrote it, because I realized the reach that the business world has.
Donna Hicks:So it's education, yes, but it's also practice, it's also walking the talk. So it's both learning. It's learning a new way of being together and learning that, okay, I might not agree with somebody who lives in another part of my world here, but I could learn how to disagree with dignity. I could learn how to disagree with that person so that I'm not making them feel bad about themselves or feel bad in general. So you know, and we have that capacity, we humans we can do that for each other. We can either make each other's day by treating each other with dignity or we can make each other miserable by violating each other's dignity, and right now the pendulum has swung all the way over to the violation, end of it. So I'm a big advocate of education.
Donna Hicks:At the same time, I think other communities, like the media, could play a huge role in this, even movies. We could have a movie industry that focuses not on all the negative stuff that you're saying now, but shows us what it looks like in film, what it looks like to treat each other well and what the world would end up being like if we had this consciousness, if we had evolved this consciousness, because it really is a question of evolving to a higher state. This guy, john Nesbitt, he's one of my favorite futurists. He said and I quote him every time I give a talk he said the greatest breakthroughs of the 21st century will not occur because of technology, but because of an expanded concept of what it means to be human. So I mean, right now, that relationship we're off the charts with technology and AI, and I mean, in fact, ai is determining what it means to be human.
Donna Hicks:We've got to catch up on the other side. We have to figure out for ourselves what humans are struggling with, what are some inherent struggles and that's like the temptations and what are the inherent skills and habits that we have to create in order to be sure that we are honoring somebody's dignity and not insulting them and violating. So everybody could play a role in this. Arts, certainly the faith communities. They already are trying. But I think this new pope might be a good thing. I think he believes in dignity for sure. So did the last one. So you know, we're making headway, we as a human species, but it's so darn slow. I personally want to see this accelerated. I want to see it happen faster.
Lisa Danylchuk:I do too. I'm right there with you. See it happen faster. I do too. I'm right there with you. And another thing I was wondering about your experience is what do you do for yourself on the days when you're just seeing dignity violations left and right and maybe you're getting like pouring in requests to speak and that's all fine and wonderful for work and business, but also sort of overwhelming and a lot to carry. And you've poured so much energy into creating something positive and deepening our understanding of what it is to be human and what it means to connect with ourselves and others and to use this language of dignity. So what do you do for yourself on days where it just feels like I'm doing so much and I can only do so much?
Donna Hicks:Yeah, no, I, I'm pretty good at knowing my limits. I know when I have to take a break and, for example, the one thing that my husband and I do together at the end of every day and we learned this during COVID when we were stuck inside all the time there's a wonderful. This is going to sound weird, but there's a beautiful cemetery here, five minutes from where we live. It was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted. He was the designer of Central Park in New York. He did this back in the 1830s, I think, designed this cemetery. But what it is? Yes, it's a cemetery, but it's an arboretum, as well.
Donna Hicks:And he planted the most exquisite trees and bushes and flowers and, like, we just got through the magma season here in the cemetery and they put labels on the trees so you could go up to it and say, oh, that's the white birch, so you can go up and you can learn. So ever since COVID this has been our go-to stress relief is to immerse ourselves in nature there at the cemetery and we could go for an hour walk. That's how big this cemetery is. It's very famous. Like Ralph Waldo Emerson was buried there. A lot of the transcendental philosophers, anybody who's anybody in the history of this area is buried there. So it's being in nature, that's yes. I think we're also being guided by souls, you know, in the cemetery.
Donna Hicks:Yeah, right, but more than that and more than that, it's just being in nature and understanding the awe and recognizing the connections that we have to nature. That calms us both down. It doesn't take but 10 minutes to start that walk that we feel that connection to something bigger than ourselves.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, I have a trail nearby my house now and I used to live by Mount Auburn Cemetery. Oh, you know what I'm talking about. I lived in. Watertown like two blocks from it.
Donna Hicks:Oh my God. Well, that's where I live is Watertown.
Lisa Danylchuk:When I was at Harvard, yeah yeah. I can't even remember the name of the street now, but just a few blocks from that cemetery. So I was just picturing walking through there, so you know Frederick Law Olmsted designed that.
Donna Hicks:I didn't know that no.
Lisa Danylchuk:I mean it's beautiful and it's stunning and many people take those peaceful walks through there. It always seems to feel like a peaceful place, Like it's just maybe the care that went into it, Like you said, presence of the souls that are there and the depth of history that's there. But finding a place that feels peaceful and you feel connected to nature or something greater too right, Like that third C in the connection, finding a sense of connection to something greater. When I walk up this hill near where I live now, I'm always recentered and amazed by oh, things are all right.
Lisa Danylchuk:Right, right now, I'm like I might've just had my mind in whatever story or experience or reality that's happening right now. But if I step out and I just my partner Alex and I always just call it up the hill, down the hill, because the trail there's three benches Are you going to the first bench, Are you going to the second bench, Are you going to third bench and the top bench, you can see the whole of the San Francisco Bay area. So if you get up there like there's some days where the sun's setting really quickly and I'm like come on, so I can see something, oh, that's stunning, that's stunning.
Lisa Danylchuk:Just being there like the first, the first little climb, and you just have a view of a golf course, which isn't the most compelling thing, but just that little perspective of looking at the trees and the sky and the dirt and like hearing the birds and seeing maybe a bunny or a deer or something going by, it recenters me in this way of oh like, this is actually okay right now, this is safe, and I know some people feel unsafe in nature, especially if it does get dark, but there's oh like everything seems to be okay, Even though I know I have a lot of information in my mind that could make me feel threatened or scared. I actually feel more connected and more safe in this moment being out on the trail. So I love that you and your husband go for that cemetery walk and just connect with the artistry that's there, the presence that's there, the nature that's there.
Donna Hicks:All of that.
Lisa Danylchuk:And it just comes back to like okay, here I am, Let me just shift my world a little bit after being in some of those dignity violations or, you know, taking in some of the energy of that.
Donna Hicks:Yeah, you know, taking in some of the energy of that, yeah, and the other this isn't another example, but what you just mentioned about how you know I get all these calls and I do, and in fact I felt like and I continue, not so much anymore, but when this stuff broke about USAID and all these other organizations that were getting all these mass firings, when I would have a conversation with someone, as much as the person was hurting and we were, I was really trying to console them as much as all that pain was right there, right present in front of me. There was a sense of connection that I felt with the person that I don't know it was, and we both felt it. That let's just I'm thinking of this one woman who called me recently and that we both had this sense that you know what we really do need to stick together.
Donna Hicks:We need we human? We have to get our friends, we have to get when we're feeling that kind of despair. And you know, she said thank you so much for having a Zoom call with me, because even she was living in Nairobi or something. And she said now I just feel that connection with you and this is what we have to do for each other, all of us. If you sit in that trauma and that despair and that sense of depression, it'll completely eat you up.
Donna Hicks:So, when reaching out is another thing that I did a lot of reaching out to my friends, my family, my people I felt really close to and just debriefed with them, just downloaded some of the sorrow that I was experiencing. But connection, connection, connection, that's it. That's the magic threesome.
Lisa Danylchuk:There's also a sense of agency in what you're describing. That feels important and I think that comes through in your work and in the 10 elements and even in the 10 temptations. You talk about victimization or being the victim being one of those temptations. But when we have a sense of our own choice and our own power and our own agency and our ability even to console one another, to feel the sadness, to not be alone in that again back to connection, like when we can have connection and agency, that changes a lot and that's something it's so interesting. I was reflecting recently on the last 10 years, like I first started doing yoga in 1998. I did my teacher training in 2003.
Lisa Danylchuk:I was thinking about what's changed in my world and one of the big things is just not feeling a larger sense or projection or worldview that feels shared, like I can't lean on this institution in my brain the way I used to. The yoga school I came up in, which was very big and respected and had a drive towards excellence in this amazing community of people, doesn't exist anymore after the pandemic. It's online actually, and there's very few teachers there now. So the community I should say transformed. It doesn't exist. In the same way, there aren't the physical studios that I used to go to, and that is something that, when I was at UCLA, I leaned on. I leaned into that community to go practice together and we disagreed right, we didn't.
Lisa Danylchuk:Not everyone was vegan, it was very popular at the time. But like, there was healthy discourse, there was movement, there was breath and even, I think, academics. At times there's so much information and there's so much conflicting information that it can just feel like there's this lack of steadiness of like, well, what can I really lean on? Like I can lean on science, but this paper says that and this school's turning out this, and so it takes time to build that foundation, and I'm with you on like, can we just move this along? I'm also wondering where do you find a sense of steadiness? I think your work is one place that I can rest on. Thank you for that. Where do you find that sense of steadiness and connection as you continue this work?
Donna Hicks:Well, I keep getting. Oh my gosh, I had the most wonderful experience yesterday that grounded me in a way that I haven't been grounded, I think, quite as powerfully before. And I have a nephew in Ecuador. My husband is half Ecuadorian and he has family in Ecuador. In Ecuador, my husband is half Ecuadorian and he has family in Ecuador.
Donna Hicks:And my nephew spent a lot of time with us when he was six years old because he was diagnosed with a horrible cancer, awful, awful cancer at six, and he and his mother and father decided they wanted to come to Boston to get treatment because it was the best place for child cancer I think it was Children's Hospital or something like that here. And so we opened our doors to them and we said, look, you can stay with us. And because they came and went for about two years, but for two years we got so close to this little boy, this precious little guy six years old, who was having chemotherapy, and so you can imagine what it was like. You know, we sort of went through agony with his parents just hoping that this was going to work. And, long story short, he was cured, he bounced back after. By the time he was like eight or nine years old. He was just right back to being a kid again. So fast forward again and he becomes politically active in Ecuador and he becomes the minister of culture in Ecuador Now. So this kid is, I think, he I never asked him this, but, and I'm going to, but I think he feels like he had a second chance at life and he is. He's the most wonderful, dignified young person that I think I've ever met. And anyway, he became active in politics and he was recently, in the last couple of weeks, appointed as the president of the National Assembly in Ecuador, which means it's the equivalent of the Speaker of the House here, mike Johnson.
Donna Hicks:But what he did was I had given him a copy of Leading with Dignity when he had his previous appointment as Minister of Culture and he read it and he just like he took to it in a way that he felt like this is what I need to do when I become more powerful in my leadership positions. And he wrote this op-ed piece on Sunday about leading with dignity and he explained how my Aunt Donna helped me understand how important it is to lead with dignity and when I went through it and he talked about this book my book and I'm thinking, oh my gosh. And then I realized the power that this young person he's now 30-something the power that this young man has now because he's using this leading with dignity as his way of leadership in the political realm. I mean, it's unheard of in Latin America, absolutely unheard of.
Donna Hicks:And so, knowing that I made that possible for him, that he is grounded in the dignity model now, and that had a reverberation effect on me, I thought, oh my gosh, this, maybe we can really see bigger, faster change. Maybe we can do this if these young people sign on to this kind of leadership, whether it's in politics or business or education. And so it grounded me in that belief again that dignity is the way forward, dignity is the antidote. But I know that's a little bit of a diversion, that story. But you can imagine how excited I was, my husband and I both, how excited we were that this kid is going to lead with dignity.
Donna Hicks:So yeah it just made me want to work harder and harder, to tell you the truth, to get this out there quicker and faster, and maybe through politics. Maybe that's the way to do it.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, you're going to run for office.
Donna Hicks:No, I'll support other. I'll support you. I'll support you. Oh, my God, finger on nose.
Lisa Danylchuk:Last person in California needs you, I know, and it makes me think of so many things as you're talking.
Lisa Danylchuk:One, the opportunity to build the relationship at a young age, in a vulnerable time, and I'd imagine that, even though this young man read your book while he's working in politics in Ecuador in his 30s, that the interactions with you and the exposure to your work through that lens, the invitation to stay with family, like the modeling and the experience of being treated with dignity, and it's a successful cancer story, right when you beat the cancer and he's bouncing back and that's amazing. It makes me wonder about. I know some people who've worked at Children's who are really amazing right, yes, treat the kids with dignity. So it just makes me think of that role and that modeling and that experience and the seeds that are planted there, in addition to then connecting it cognitively when you're in this position to actually make change. And Jacinda Ardern who was the Prime Minister of New Zealand from 2017 to 2023, now has an organization that brings leaders together in politics who want to lead with empathy.
Lisa Danylchuk:So, it just makes me think of, and she talks about how there are actually a lot of people in politics who really, really care, and this is their platform, like her platform in New Zealand was kindness Right and she won and so she did. And so having those, I was thinking for myself, oh, what if I had these role models growing up, right?
Donna Hicks:And so we do have those role models.
Lisa Danylchuk:I'd love for there to be more, but there are a lot of people who, just like your nephew, who are resonating, who are bringing this to politics in places where it hasn't been there, and that brings me hope. I usually ask people at the end of this podcast what brings you hope? But you just dropped a beautiful there it is right there.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, what brings a sense of hope for dignity. And we talk a lot in the trauma world about vicarious trauma, but there's also vicarious healing and resilience and growth, and I think all of your work is such a map for that. So if people who are listening haven't dug into it, encourage you to dig into it more and bring it into whatever wherever you are in the world right now. Because you mentioned school and business and that's like I find myself thinking okay, well, if you add in sleep and eating, that just covers all of life, right.
Donna Hicks:Oh, healthcare. Healthcare is another one. I've been in healthcare a lot, so that covers a big base talking about healing, but they don't really talk about healing dignity violations yet I don't think. We'll see, we'll see.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, hopefully we can get there and even just building the platform to stay connected while we disagree. You've given so many examples today of just language we can use, whether we're inviting someone to a conversation or just staying connected in disagreement. I feel like that is such a foundation in terms of healing, like we can stay connected to ourselves when there's different emotions or pulls, or we can stay connected to each other when we have different experiences and we can stay curious. There's so much hope in your work, and so I want to thank you for everything you've put into it over all these years, for everything you're continuing to put into it, and just encourage people to visit your website, drdonnahickscom, to follow your work, to amplify it, to share it, to get it into ourselves, to get it into the water, to build it from the inside out and the outside in in every single way we can. Thank you so much for all of it. Is there anything else you'd like to share today before we wrap?
Donna Hicks:Well, there's only I always end with this, no matter. I mean, I've done many podcasts, as you can imagine. I like people to think about whether they are connected to their own dignity. You know, because when I go around and work in organizations, the first thing that we do is to be sure that first connection because we say dignity, consciousness requires connection, connection, connection, connection to your own dignity, connection to the dignity of others and the connection to something greater than yourself we don't have that first connection really secure, that we haven't embraced and celebrated our own inherent value and worth. That's where we have to start. We have to start with recognizing and accepting and taking in. I am worthy, no matter what.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yes, and I'm wondering if there's any bridge you'd like to share with the audience, maybe for yourself, or something you've witnessed that takes people from I'm not worthy of dignity to maybe I am. Oh, yeah, I am.
Donna Hicks:Well, I think it has to do with trauma and previous dignity violations. You know, just recognizing that one of the reasons why we have so much self-doubt instead of embracing our dignity and recognizing our dignity is because we've been wounded. You know, we've been traumatized, we've been wounded by all these dignity violations because they, like we started saying they're in the air, they're everywhere and unless we put together, oh, the reason that I'm feeling bad is not because I am bad, it's because something bad happened to me and I need to heal from that, you know. So it's externalizing the problem.
Donna Hicks:Like I'm, like I'm worthy, but I had several dignity violations when I was a young kid and that was my bridge, because I had a lot of dignity violations as a young child and so recognizing that, oh no, I wasn't a bad little girl, something bad happened to me. I had people and events who were traumatized themselves, who were treating me badly. Because that whole trauma cycle continues on and on until we stop it and say, no, I'm worthy, no matter what. You know, I have had something wrong. I feel like there's something wrong with me, but it isn't me. Something wrong and bad happened to me.
Donna Hicks:So that transition that's the bridge that helped me get through. Something wrong with me, but it isn't me. Something wrong and bad happened to me. So that transition, that's the bridge that helped me get through. And now I mean once I've embraced my dignity. This was only maybe a couple decades ago, but sky's the limit for me. Sky's the limit I'm not stopping. Nobody's going to stop me from being creative and helping others and contributing to the welfare of the of humanity. Nothing's going to stop me that's it.
Lisa Danylchuk:Yeah, celebrate it so powerful and yeah, we talk about putting dignity in the water and I'm have this image, as you're talking, of the reverse, which is like we do for our drinking water filtering filter it out maybe the dignity is actually the water. Maybe the dignity is actually and once you filter out the harms or the yeah things that are harmful, all the toxic toxins yeah we get that out and it's like, oh yeah, well, that was.
Lisa Danylchuk:That was just something that impacted me was something else, but the whole of who I am, it it's deep work and I think part of the process of your work and the reason it takes time is because it does ask us to go pretty deep. Right, it's not just 10 steps and done. Right, it's ongoing, it's deep, it requires humility, it requires reflection and it's dynamic in that way. So, thank, continuing with it, and I encourage everyone listening to keep keep practicing this dignity consciousness. Yes, see it everywhere. It's a superpower to see it and it's also necessary to see beyond it. This fall, I'm offering a new class Freedom from Trauma. In it, I'll describe why it's essential for us to identify trauma and how we can approach healing in a way that we don't end up swimming. In it You'll learn simple, not always easy perspective and practices to help you move out of the trauma vortex and stand in something stronger and more powerful than the impacts of harm. I'm looking forward to sharing what I know with you in this new way. Visit howwecanhealcom forward slash freedom from trauma to register for the training. Thank you so much for listening. Now I'd really love to hear from you what resonated with you in this episode and what's on your mind and in your heart. As we bring this conversation to a close, email me at info at howwecanhealcom, or share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments on Instagram, where you'll find me at HowWeCanHeal. Don't forget to go to HowWeCanHealcom to sign up for email updates as well. You'll also find additional trainings, tons of free resources and the full transcript of each and every show. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, spotify, audible or wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe and keep sharing the shows you love the most with all your friends. Visit howwecanhealcom forward slash podcast to share your thoughts and ideas for the show. I always, always love hearing from you.
Lisa Danylchuk:Before we wrap up for today, I want to be super clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions. It's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own, and opinions can change. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today and everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and taking the fur babies out while I record. Last and never least, I'd like to give a special shout out to my big brother, matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here. Thank you.