Finding Solid Ground: An Evidence Based Program For Complex Trauma & Dissociation with Dr. Bethany Brand

This episode is sponsored by the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD).

The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation is an international, non-profit, professional association organized to develop and promote comprehensive, clinically effective and empirically based resources and responses to trauma and dissociation and to address its relevance to other theoretical constructs.

To learn more and become a member, visit: https://www.isst-d.org/

Visit https://cfas.isst-d.org/ to access educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals

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The people most harmed by trauma are often the ones research quietly leaves out: clients dealing with severe dissociation, chronic self-harm risk, suicidal crises, and symptoms that don’t fit neatly into a study design. That’s why this conversation with clinical psychologist and trauma researcher Dr. Bethany Brand lands so hard and so hopefully. We talk about Finding Solid Ground (FSG), a structured stabilization program created specifically for complex trauma, complex PTSD, and dissociative disorders, and why its step-by-step approach can help both survivors and the therapists supporting them. 

We unpack how the program was built over 15 years with a “dream team” of experts plus direct feedback from people with lived experience with dissociation. Bethany explains the logic behind the sequencing across modules: grounding as the true foundation, separating past from present to reduce flooding from traumatic intrusions, then moving into safety planning and emotional work only after clients have enough internal resources to tolerate it. We also explore the unique role of brief teaching videos and workbook practice, including why the videos can feel relational while still staying safely under the client’s control. 

Then we dig into the research. Bethany walks through results from a randomized controlled trial showing Finding Solid Ground adds measurable benefit beyond individual therapy alone, along with individual-level findings like reliable change and reduced deterioration. We also touch on what clinicians report learning and how the program can strengthen the therapy relationship, build self-compassion, and expand adaptive capacities in ways people don’t always expect from “stage one” trauma treatment. 

If you’re looking for evidence-based trauma stabilization tools, grounded coping skills, and a clearer map for dissociation treatment, press play. If the conversation helps, subscribe, share it with someone who needs a steadier path, and leave a review so more people can find this work.

Learn more about FSG here: https://www.findingsolidground.info/

Transcript

ISSTD Sponsorship And Training Resources

Lisa Danylchuk 0:04

Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast. Today, we welcome back to the show Dr. Bethany Brand, a leading clinical psychologist, researcher, and internationally recognized expert in trauma and dissociation. With over three decades of experience and as the principal investigator of the landmark top DD studies, Dr. Brand has helped transform how we understand and treat complex trauma. She's the co-creator of Finding Solid Ground, the first evidence-based, research-backed program specifically designed to support individuals living with complex trauma and associative disorders. Grounded in both rigorous science and deep clinical compassion, this work offers practical step-by-step tools to help people stabilize, build safety, and reconnect with themselves. In today's conversation, we'll focus on what it really means to find solid ground and how this approach is reshaping trauma treatment for both clinicians and survivors. I'm so grateful to know Bethany and to be able to work with her in this way. We're also presenting at the ISSTD conference in Portland. So if you're hearing this on Monday, you can still join us this Saturday at the plenary there in Portland, Oregon. We'd love to have you there, and I'm thrilled to share this conversation with you whenever you're listening to it. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Bethany Brand back to the show. I want to give a big shout out and extend a huge thank you to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, the ISSTD, for sponsoring this episode. If you've been listening to the podcast, you've heard me talk about ISSTD countless times and the incredible researchers, clinicians, and advocates I've met during my time as a member and volunteer there. Bethany is one of them. The ISSTD has been delving into the science and best practice of treating trauma and dissociation for over 40 years, and they have a rich catalog of educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals on their website, cfas.isst-d.org. If you're a mental health professional, I highly recommend you consider becoming a member of ISSTD. And I would love to see you during their live educational offerings and at the annual conference coming up so so soon in Portland, Oregon, starting March 26, 2026. Visit isst-d.org to learn more. And welcome to podcasts.

What Finding Solid Ground Is

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Thank you so much, Lisa. It's an honor to be here. I'm really excited.

Lisa Danylchuk 2:48

Yeah, so finding solid ground. I'm sure some folks listening have read books, listened to you talk about it, heard trainings. Can you tell us a little bit just about what finding solid ground is and how it was born?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yes. We've developed it over about 15 years of research, also with input from people with lived experience with dissociation and from world-class clinicians and researchers. We have a dream team of people. Ruth Lanius, Frank Putnam, Rich Lowenstein, Hugashilka. I mean, we just have some top, not well-recognized names who've been our consultants and helped develop it. And we have completed our the first randomized controlled trial that in the world that has been beneficial to people with severe dissociative disorders, as well as the results show, as well as people with less severe symptoms. So people with complex PTSD and the dissociative subtype of PTSD.

Lisa Danylchuk 3:56

So hold on, I have an applause button. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

It is, it is really huge.

Lisa Danylchuk 4:05

It's huge. And what I love about there's so many things I love about this. But one thing is I think for so long in this field, we find things that work well for the most simple cases. And then we go, ooh, but I don't know about if it gets more complex. And so what you're saying is through research finding this works for the most complex, you know, people diagnosed with dissociative disorders, complex trauma, and it can help other folks too, right? So it's the reverse of I think what we've seen for so long, which is, oh, this helps some people. Ooh, but not when it gets complicated.

Research Design For Complex Clients

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Exactly right. So many regular psychotherapy research studies and the trauma research studies exclude people if they're actively suicidal, if they're actively self-harming or using substances. And that's the population that really needs our help, right? Yeah, the most. And they're the most challenging for clinicians. Yes. So we took everybody as long as they had a therapist who would work with them through the program, and they both agreed to watch the videos, look at the journaling exercises, and you know, for the clients to actually do the practice skill development exercises. And you know, we took all comers. We have 200, almost 300 dyads, therapist patients from around the world who volunteered their time. Thank you, any of you who are listening. Yes. And so it I think of it as a crowd-sourced research study. Yeah. Because, you know, the US National Institute of Mental Health has never supported financially a study on complex dissociative disorders. We got no big funding like that. We got a lot of donations.

Lisa Danylchuk 5:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

And that's how we pulled this all together. And I've had some brilliant students who have mostly actually all the consultants, like Frank Putnam, have donated their time. Yeah. Donated their time. Like that kind of research study could cost easily$3 million. Yeah. No, we did not have three million dollars, but we did it anyway. Yeah. Because so many people, the participants and research team, donated time.

Lisa Danylchuk 6:25

It's such an effort of love and commitment to healing across the board, right? To understanding what helps mental health professionals in terms of toolkit and what helps people actually start to feel some traction in a sort of treatment that can feel overwhelming and difficult to even find a match for some find where to get help or start to feel a sense of, oh, something's working. So it's such a beautiful testament to the human spirit to hear of this crowdfunding. And then I dreamstorm in my mind, shout out to Jennifer Gomez, who we're presenting at the conference on dreamstorming with. I always shout out to her every episode. I tell her she says she listens. She's like walking along the Charles River. Are you are you there? Are you listening? Are you walking along with Charles? Just a shout out to you. Hi, Jen. Hi, Jen. My dream storm here is that folks who are doing this research get the most funding and the most support because again, this is the hardest stuff. Like, why would we like spend all of our resources on the things that are easiest? Why wouldn't we do it this way where we're learning from, okay, this is what works in the most complex situations and it helps other people? And there's a trickle down or trickle over, trickle up, trickle around effect. Right. So can you share with us some of the primary components of finding solid ground? Like I'm I think it's safe to call it like a stage one sort of resourcing focused program and protocol. What are some of the elements? How did you come to them? How did they arise in your work?

How The Program Was Built

SPEAKER_02 8:03

It's a little brief story. Frank Putnam put me up to it.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yes, as he does, as he does. I have so much respect for Frank Putnam. He is a hero. He has done so much to improve the world.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

He said to me at an ISS TD conference, some young person needs to find a way to do a treatment study. We have not had a rigorous treatment study to date. And I kind of scoffed. I love him, but I did kind of roll my eyes like there's no funding, Frank. Yeah. Who's going to do this? We don't have any treatment centers where we can train up a bunch of therapists. You know, I had some idea about what the psychotherapy research has to look like. But he planted the idea in my mind, and I started thinking about it, and I'd be working out down in my basement on my Nordic tract.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

This was a long time ago, and you could get a Nordic track.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

And I'd be working out and I'd get energy and excitement, and I'd be thinking, like, how can we do it? And we actually had two goals. We absolutely wanted to help even the most challenging clients with the most severe symptoms, down to you know, more minor symptoms, but still complex trauma. And we wanted to try and help the therapist because this is such a hard group to help. Yeah, it can be very challenging. You can feel like you're not making progress, your heart goes out to your clients and you see their suffering. It is so hard. And so we started talking about what would a program need to be that would be stabilizing. Yes. And so we didn't create, you know, all of these ideas fresh ourselves. Some we did. Some of the exercises that are now in our finding solid ground workbook, we created. But we started with grounding, which you know, we've almost all heard about grounding and been doing grounding, but we emphasize that as the starting point for finding solid ground, which I may slip and call it FSG. So just so people know what I'm talking about. And what we all have learned, and I mean the researchers who are all of us were clinicians still, with I think the exception of Frank Putnam, we're all still very actively treating clients. We thought we were doing enough grounding. Yeah. And I don't think any of us have been, probably. Um, and now with some of Ruth Lanius's research on the importance of working with the vestibular balance system, we are now emphasizing that. I know the yoga work you too. Yeah, you've been talking about it and doing it, and OTs have been talking about some of this, but into mainstream regular therapy, probably a lot of people haven't.

unknown 10:53

Yeah.

Grounding And The Vestibular System

SPEAKER_02 10:53

And so emphasizing we have these eight modules and finding solid ground. The program is broken into eight modules. In the eight modules across over time, it's we talk about 30 topics. So we try and break down. I took a lot of thinking and dreamsting. Like, all right, if you just had like a year or maybe two years to stabilize somebody, and people can go through finding solid ground much slower than that, and plenty of people need to. Yeah. But what would be the key ingredients? So, of course, grounding.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yes.

Intrusions As A Key Trigger

Separating Past From Present Skills

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Then some other research. We've been developing this based on some of our research and other people's research. One of our most important studies showed from working with highly dissociative participants. We asked them what were their main triggers or any of their triggers they could recall in their entire life that had led them to engage in self-harm or high-risk behaviors. And the number one trigger was being flooded by traumatic intrusions. Yeah. So horrible pictures, body memories, and they couldn't get it to stop. And so, of course, we all know they've taught us, our clients have taught us, like using drugs or alcohol to stop the feelings or other kinds of self-indurious behaviors, potentially self-indurious behaviors, stops it. Yeah. Reliably. Yeah. But it also keeps people caught up, whether they're aware of it or not, in this idea that it's okay for my body to be hurt. And it's a reenactment from childhood, right? And that's all folks had when they were little. You know, you don't have all the resources you do as you get older. So our second module after grounding was separating past from present. Really helping contain and give some sense of control over those intrusions, helping them find ways to distinguish is am I safer now or not? What are my resources now? And did I have those when I was younger? And just ways to help, those are some basic ways, and we go into a lot more detail in the program, but the basic ways of calming the nervous system and helping them not be so flooded. So they didn't have the triggers to engage in self-harm so much. Yeah. And then I worked inpatient for on a trauma disorders unit for a number of years, early, early in my career as a postdoc. And of course, when you're working inpatient, you jump right to safety problems because that's all the insurance is going to give you time for, right? And so, in my experience, you go to safety problems right away. But Dr. Hugashoka, one of our collaborators, co-developers of the program, led live groups in a forensic psychiatric state hospital in California testing out FSG, an early version. And he got lots of feedback, they got lots of feedback from clients saying, can't do that. Emotions too big, safety too big, can't talk about that. And so we learned from that kind of feedback to make to get into safety. We have two modules on safety, but if they come later after people already have the foundational skills so they can help tolerate that safely. And then toward the end of the program, we get into emotions and encourage people in baby steps. Try to sit for a little bit as long as you can, but respect yourself and your body. When you get the sense that that's enough, respect that and move away, outside or around in some other way. We do talk about parts, but not a ton, and then not till later, because when you're talking about dissociative self-states or parts, it brings up often trauma memories, maybe conflict about trauma memories, and a lot of emotion. And that's so big that we think that's the purview of individual therapists to decide with this client how much can I talk about it and when. But we do bring up ideas like all parts are created to help. Yeah. And you know, compromise, communication, collaboration. You may adapt any of these skills for different parts. We say some of that, yeah, just not in lots of detail. Yeah. So we think we have, as you said, a stabilization program that works in manageable chunks. And oh, we have these videos too. So I'm in these videos talking 10 to 13 minutes typically, and at the end of every single one, I say step by step, you'll get there.

Lisa Danylchuk 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

And we've heard that that was encouraging, which of course we meant that to be. And we wanted to get internalized. Um, and so we know of one case, for example, the person has given us permission to share the story. One woman who participated in our study, she after at some point got into a real suicidal crisis. She was determined to go and kill herself. I won't get into details. And then right as she prepared to do it, she heard me in her head from those videos saying, Step by step, you'll get there. Yeah, wow. She went away from where she was gonna hurt herself. She went home and she activated her safety plan she had made as part of FSG.

Lisa Danylchuk 16:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

She lived through it.

Sequencing Safety And Emotion Work

Lisa Danylchuk 16:39

Yeah. Wow, what a huge success story to be able to hear and share and know that that voice is getting internalized step by step. You'll get there.

unknown 16:50

Yeah.

Lisa Danylchuk 16:51

And I just, as you're talking about it, can feel you're so clearly a clinician, a rare, a rare bird of clinician and researcher, because there's such a sense of compassion and clarity with everything you describe. And a researcher's mind has to really think about things in certain ways. And it there's a risk at times of losing that sense of humanity there, but it's just so fully enveloped in everything I hear you describe, like the compassion and the perspective, best any of us can do for what our clients are going through, and really meeting that and really delivering something that, you know, we're open to studying, and we're saying, really trying to find what people who've experienced things like you are telling us is working. And then we're studying that and packaging it in the best way and getting feedback from therapists and clinicians and honing it over time and continuing to study it, and then working together on it, right?

unknown 17:54

Exactly.

Lisa Danylchuk 17:55

It's not this is the modality. Here you go. It's so relational, and I hear just so much attunement and care in there with respect for the fact that even care, even safety, all those things can be big no's, especially in the beginning or or over long periods of time, even for folks who've experienced a lot of harm.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Exactly right. You are so sensitive. Uh, you're picking up on some things that mattered so much to us. So we tried to build in self-compassion, and that is one of our outcome variables that improves over time. But we also know that that can feel incredibly threatening, like a trick, disgusting, revulsing. And so we put it in a little early and then we come back to it. Yeah. You know, put your I tell my own personal clients, um, if listeners know the song The Hokey Pokey.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yes, yes. You put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and shake it all about.

Parts Work And Keeping It Tolerable

SPEAKER_02 18:58

I use that um metaphor and kind of laugh with my own clients. Like just put a toe in. Yes. Try it. Think, could you just think about it for a couple of seconds? Maybe, like all the other people who are participating in this program. Uh you know, our clients are so compassionate toward others. So you you you recognize, you know, I'm talking as if I'm doing one of those videos. You recognize that people doing this study, you you understand they don't deserve to be hurt and feel awful about themselves. But you imagine that perhaps that also is accurate for you. And what we've heard, um, some of the stories, we've we've had extremely experienced therapists. Most most people who were participating in the study as therapists had lots of trauma training. And I know one who can't identify participants, but she reached out to me. She was a former postdoc who got great training back in the days when Shepard Pratt had a great trauma unit. And she said, My client and I, as we did the study, she said to me at one point, Why haven't you taught me this stuff?

Lisa Danylchuk 20:09

Yes. Where have you been? What have you been doing? What are all these certificates about? Come on now. And of course, the therapist had been doing the exact thing. Of course. Yeah.

Why Videos And Workbook Help

SPEAKER_02 20:21

And so we think, like, we've sat with this and talked about this. Like, why is FSG helping? Yeah. And one of our thoughts might be uh Ruth Lanius is very, very short, as sure as you can be without actually doing a study where you take apart all the components and look at it. She thinks the videos really have made a difference. And plenty of clients and therapists have said they made a difference. Some therapists have said it feels like I have a co-therapist so alone. And clients, some some who participated said things like, I remember one person, I wish my partner could watch these videos and they would understand me. And other people said, I am taking in the understanding, the compassion. And somebody said, and as I take in self-compassion, I have self-compassion from my parts. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So I think maybe because my voice, you know, I'm not their therapist. There's no conflict that they have to pay me to see them. I can't possibly hurt them. I'm just a video. Yes. And then there we have the workbook now that has all the journaling exercises and all the skill practice exercises from the randomized controlled uh study. And so I think those things help some people think, okay, there is science that shows this helps. If I just keep plugging away and don't give up on myself, like they keep saying in the videos, I'll make progress step by step. Yeah. So it seems like it may be some of a motivation. Yeah. A source of hope, but maybe not as threatening because they could turn me off the videos anytime and come back and watch as many times as they want. Yes. Right. So we've got this website app we're developing. It'll be available soon that'll offer access to those videos. It will be a subscription model because it's expensive to have a really um safe uh website that hosts these things so they can't get corrupted. Yeah. But it'll be available.

Lisa Danylchuk 22:32

Oh, that's so wonderful. And then folks can tap in and just like you said, play, pause, rewind, stop in total control of the relationship to that without any sense of, oh, Bethany's gonna get mad at me if I need to stop, right? Or oh, I want to repeat that one a million times. Is that okay? Like, yeah, it's all it's all good. You can be right where you are and get that support.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Exactly. You know, uh, I'm sure you've had this, Lisa, where clients feel like it's creepy if they need you. If they're like, that's gross. I can't be dependent on you. And I think it just offers one more resource that feels exactly as you're saying, under their control and relational, but not as scary as face-to-face relationships, perhaps.

A Suicide Crisis Interrupted By Hope

Lisa Danylchuk 23:18

Yeah, that intermediary and another resource, another part of the plan, another part of the support network. So if it's the middle of the night, or if your therapist is on vacation and they have a wonderful backup person that you don't really know so well, right? Like any of those things, it's just another place to get support and care. And that research piece, knowing it's backed by science, right? Knowing this has been taken apart and put back together and studied and looked at from different angles. And I'd imagine to the degree people know that it's resourced from experience too, right? It's not, hey, I have this idea, let's test it. It's, hey, these themes have emerged and oh, we have some ideas to layer into that, and then let's see how it works well, and then let's study it and ooh, it's working, to have that sense of confidence to be able to lean onto something, especially in work like this, right? Especially when you know it's up and down and all around and it's challenging to be able to lean just enough on, okay, step by step I'll get there. If I keep doing this, this is gonna help, right? I have a sense of confidence in that. That can be just priceless.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yes, I agree. It it feels like to go back to the therapist of the woman who had the suicidal crisis. Um, his name is Dr. Nicolas Rodriguez. He's very pre-eminent in Chile. He's given me permission to share his story, as has his client. He has shared with us that he thinks it's a game changer that there will be a before and after finding solid ground and uh trauma field. Because him just he's a real expert in EMDR. He trains, he consults, he's gonna be he's starting a FSG research study in Chile. He saw such differences, and as he's training people, he's hearing such differences that he has that level of faith in it that he says it's a game changer. One piece I didn't address, and I will be presenting this at ISS T D next week.

Lisa Danylchuk 25:28

And if you're listening to this in 2026, yeah, in 2026, Friday, what is it, March 20th?

Trial Results That Prove Effect

SPEAKER_01 25:35

The 27th. March 27th. I'm doing a training tomorrow. That's the 20th. No, ISSTD is the 27th. Yes.

Individual Change And Reduced Deterioration

SPEAKER_02 25:44

I'll show the slides that will show this. There's different ways you can do statistical analyses. The typical way is you group everybody together and you look at the group data. Yeah. When we look at the group data that way, we had people, everybody understood as they came into the study that they could be assigned to continue with your individual therapy and wait six months to get access to finding solid ground. And half of them would continue with your individual therapy and get immediate access to finding solid ground. In research terms, it had as an extremely challenging design because most treatment studies looking at what they want to see if it works, FSG, they compare it to a watered-down, very light intervention, like let's teach an uh anxiety management exercise or something. Something. Let's talk about the importance of diet or exercise. Right. Right? Like it's not going to compete with changing PTSD and dissociation. Well, we wanted something that's actually going to be really helpful to the field. Does FSG add something above and beyond individual therapy with therapists who are experienced? And this is what we found. And I get I literally get small. Yes. It's you know, it's the um top of it's the pinnacle of my career that we've managed to do this. So I do get emotional about it because I've seen this suffering for over 30 years. Okay. So in the group who had individual therapy alone, none of their outcomes improved in six months from individual therapy. Not any. Wow. And then once they got FSG, um, well, the immediate access group just at six months showed really nice improvements in every outcome variable we looked at. And then at a year, they showed continued improvement. Once the wait list that was still getting individual therapy got FSG, then they caught up to the six-month improvements. And then they continued, and at one year they showed really beautiful improvements. Wow. So we can say with confidence that FSG caused those improvements. Yes. That is the rock solid highest level of research evidence for any treatment. All right, so that's at the group level, but then we have gone ahead and added some additional analyses. Thank you, Karen Putnam, Frank Putnam's brilliant statistician wife. Yes. She has been analyzing and analyzing and making sure are these analyses correct? You know, and we trust her with every precious data. She's extremely good. We asked her to do reliable change index analyses. What that does is look at the individuals to find out well, did any individuals make reliable change beyond just, you know, when you take different questionnaires again and again, there's there's some error, there's some noise in people's answers on questionnaires. You know, maybe I won't go into detail, but we wanted to see, well, what about individuals? And so individuals in that six-month wait list uh condition, some some small percentage did make reliable change improvements. Some also smaller groups deteriorated. We all know that's part of working with complex trauma. Yeah, that there are periods of waxing and waning symptoms. One of our early studies shows if they've been if a client was re-victimized, so of course their symptoms are going to worsen. Or if there's a huge amount of family stress or intrusions from past abusers, our research study showed that it's understandable and they did get more symptomatic. So over time, looking at reliable change, looking at comparing the rates of reliable change just from those in individual therapy, once they got FSG, their reliable change doubled. The percentage of individual clients who showed reliable change in PTSD dissociation, self-compassion, adaptive capacities doubled. It is very clear to us it's FSG. And once they got into FSG, the rates of deterioration sometimes vanished to zero.

unknown 30:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Or it went to tiny little percentages. So we're still trying to make sense of that. We feel like it's like safety guardrails, maybe. We think we got the sequence right with all that input from people with lived experience and all these wise clinicians around the world as we adapted it over time in our research. We think we got the sequence right. Yeah. And if people don't give up on themselves, and if they keep step by step going through that program at whatever pace they need, they show improvement. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

It is. I mean, it is.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

I every single time I get choked up or goosebumps or both, because I didn't think it was possible. When Frank Putnam said somebody ought to study this, like, where's the money? How do we do it? And then he added the clincher. And you know, it would be amazing if we could do an online intervention.

Lisa Danylchuk 31:24

And then I just like rolled my like ha ha ha ha, slapping money over here. That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

And hilarious because how do you help folks who've been so mistreated and struggling for you know often decades? How do you help them if you don't actually see them?

Lisa Danylchuk 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

And an online manualized intervention, come on, that's hogwash. Yeah. I didn't have a lot of faith in those programs. Yeah. But now, but we worked hard and tinkered with it over time, not just tinkered, it doesn't do it justice. We improved it over time based on the feedback we got and our research results. And lo and behold, yeah, we're here.

Lisa Danylchuk 32:08

So, what are some of the symptom improvements that people report? Are they feeling, you know, they're scaling less on sort of dissociative inventories or PTFD inventories? Yeah. Are there any uh and I don't know how much qualitative data you're collecting here, too, in terms of stories or words, but are there any themes you want to share of how people report their clients or themselves feeling supported, feeling better? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Again, thank you to one of my former students who is the students who've worked on the study, Nick Pirazzio and Shay Nestor being the top two. I'm just giving them a shout out. Yes, they've gone on to doctoral programs. My university didn't have doctoral programs, so they got their masters or were in the process of getting their master's and then moved on to a doctoral program. And they have stayed linked in with the study. They are still our co-authors. You know, like they're loyal, they're faithful, they have the dream. Yes, help these clients too. Good. So and they both really love qualitative research. So Nick was first author on a paper that came out. Um, I'm trying to remember, was it 2026, 2025? I cannot keep it all straight. He, with a team, I was one of the authors, but I have a minor role, analyzed with an open text box question from the surveys for clients. What did you find helpful, if anything, in FSG? And I won't be able to remember all the themes that emerged, but they talked about the actual content of the program was helpful. They felt like they learned skills, and that was helpful. They felt it helped strengthen the relationship with their therapist. And relational healing, as you've already pointed out several times, is crucial to working with trauma survivors and helping them. They felt it helped them develop self-compassion. And there's these quotes about how they had some they for some people with parts, how they develop more compassion toward their parts. Things like that that they just felt were really helpful. Ah, another thing, I love this. As I said earlier, you know, typically people who have experienced complex trauma have huge hearts, huge amount of self-compassion for others.

Lisa Danylchuk 34:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

And so they said another theme that emerged was it felt meaningful to be doing something to help other people.

Lisa Danylchuk 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Like if they couldn't maybe do it for themselves someday, they would still like think maybe it's going to help somebody else when I help somebody else. And I hope people listening, any uh anybody out there living with dissociation, adopt that thinking. If there are days you don't feel like you can do it for you, try and do it thinking maybe if I help myself down the road, I'll be there for somebody else. Maybe my pet, maybe my child, who knows? Yeah, maybe it'll help somebody else. Or those days you can't do it just solely for yourself.

Lisa Danylchuk 35:13

Yeah, it's true. I find so much compassion for animals and for right, like so much love and compassion. It's in there, and it's just finding that really unique pathway, right? I'm thinking of like a going on a hike and you have to go through the jungle at some point. You there's no path for it, but you find the safest way that you can cut through and and create access that self-compassion or or direct it back, right? It's like you gotta create a trail and then a road, and then you know, just make that that accessible because I think it does feel really inaccessible for a whole host of reasons for a number of people.

Adaptive Capacities That Improve

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah, it can feel dangerous to have hope. Yes, yeah, it can feel like the worst level of I am unworthy of getting better. We've heard these things, right? In our offices with our clients and in the study. No, but uh don't give up on yourself, just keep going, plot you know, step by step, go through that program. And is just to be honest, we've only tested it in two different modalities now. The randomized controlled trial, our strongest methodological study was with people who were in individual therapy. We have not yet tested it with people just doing it on their own.

Lisa Danylchuk 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

But if you can't find a therapist or don't want to be in therapy, can't afford it, whatever, I hope it still helps. We desperately hope it still helps, but we just don't have research to say it was. Yeah. It's also been tested, uh, FSG was tested in a group format by some researchers at Purdue University. And their studies have been published now. At least one is all the way out, the other one I think is still in press. Um, but they without a randomized controlled trial, they showed that going in a group format through the program helped patients with these same outcomes. So PTSD improved, dissociation improved, a measure I don't think I've mentioned so far called Progress in Treatment Questionnaire, which we developed early on in our studies, and it's free and it's available out on the web through one of our websites. I'm trying to remember which website I'm not remembering right now. I should say what our one of our websites. The main one now is called finding solidground.info. Yes. It's just those words together, no dots or line or dashes. Finding solid ground.info. We have information about the studies. We might have information about how to get to the pit queue on there.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

We might have. Yes. Sorry, I should have looked it up. Maybe you can link to it.

Lisa Danylchuk 37:55

Yeah, we'll definitely link to finding solid ground. And if if I mean I would imagine we can find it and link to that. Pick you, I'll send it to you in an email. Yeah, that's perfect.

Therapist Benefits And Skill Gains

SPEAKER_02 38:05

But it's there's a version for therapists, there's a version for patients. So we've analyzed so far the patient version, and so did the Purdue researchers. And it looks at adaptive capacities, the kind of capacities you want people who have experienced complex trauma to develop over time. So it addresses things like I can work with my therapists and make progress. I can have urges to do risky, maybe even self-harming things, but I don't engage in that. Or I use safe coping instead. I found meaning in life. Like things we didn't expect from a stabilizing program would improve. I've like looking at social support and being able to deal with emotions, recognizing that if there's an item in there about not blaming themselves for trauma. Yeah. Some of these items, some of those capacities are supposed to develop later in treatment. But at least with one of our papers, we looked at every item on the pit cue and it improved. Every item. We didn't expect that in a stabilizing stage one program, but I think it's what you've been saying, what I've been saying, about as people take in all this education we teach in FSG about this is what trauma does to people. Yeah. These are the effects of trauma. This is not you being weak or a bad person or having asked for it. This is what trauma does. They internalize that. And so even some late-stage stuff or supposedly late stage improvement started improving. There's an item on there about being able, at least at times, to experience some sexual pleasure. That's a late-stage improvement. And it's it changed significantly. It's in our network study, we haven't analyzed it from the RCT yet. Anyway, so the Purdue folks showed the pit Q, the adaptive capacities improved. Did I say self-compassion? In a group format, and they they had eight groups, seven were virtual groups, only one was face to face. Wow. And so Frank Putnam is the first one who started saying, This is scalable. This is a scalable intervention. Bethany, you've got to start scaling up.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yes. Yes, sir. He's so passionate about helping these.

Lisa Danylchuk 40:32

And he must be just so overjoyed that that seed, that idea of the research to see this come to life. I mean, I'm just going to keep dreamstorming on the podcast for hope that one day, decade later, someone, some listener will come and be like, hey, I heard this idea of a better world that you talked about with Bethany Brand and what we did with that, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Oh, that would be my honor if that happens.

Lisa Danylchuk 40:58

Right. Well, I mean, it's happening right now for with what Frank Putnam offered to you. And like that's why the goosebumps, that's why the depth of emotion. And because both you and Frank and so many of us here listening to know the depth of what this means for people, for someone to be ready to end their life and hear an encouraging voice, to hear your voice saying, step by step, you'll get there. And to make a choice to live in that moment, that's huge. And that's one example. And there's so many more moments of healing, or and the step by step you'll get there, you know, when hope feels far away. It's hopeful, but it's also very present moments. It's very like look at what, okay, one step at a time, just do today. That's enough. We don't have to go to, hey, everything's gonna be okay, or we don't have to go to anything that starts to feel like a platitude or difficult to connect with from a challenged place, right? But step by step you'll get there. I mean, I could use that on a trail run too, and it's very, it's very accurate, right? Looking at the top of the mountain, like that looks really far away, but step by step you will get there, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

I love it. So we tease each other now. Um, that was Ruth Lanius's quote step by step. She's the one who told me I had to put that in every single blast of me. Nice, but she was right. Yeah, wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

And I wanted to shout out Huga Shilka is the one who came up with the the term finding solid ground is the name of the program.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yes, like we do well together, and now we tease each other and ourselves. Like, okay, we got to write up the paper. The final paper for FSG is not yet written. Okay, step by step, we'll get there by step, we'll get there.

Lisa Danylchuk 42:48

Come on, come on, don't give up. Come on, team. We got this step by step. Yeah. I mean, it is so much work. And I just think it boggles my mind to think about the all the work and all the layers and the people that have to contribute for something like this to come to fruition in the way that is happening. So just celebrate that for all of you and encourage you to continue step by step while you're taking care of yourselves, while you're resting, taking breaks. I'm curious about clinicians and any themes you've heard too. Are there are there any things that you're feeling, oh, okay, there's problems with burnout and vicarious trauma, and there's also vicarious resilience in the field with finding solid ground. What are our therapists or mental health professionals saying this does for them?

SPEAKER_02 43:32

We haven't yet analyzed their qualitative feedback, but what we have heard, because I have read through their other comment boxes, yeah. They've said things like, I feel like I have a co-therapist, or I'm learning ways to say things to my clients that will land better.

Lisa Danylchuk 43:51

Yeah.

Flexible Pacing And Weekly Limits

SPEAKER_02 43:51

And, you know, figuring out how to say challenging things about safety that won't be blaming, the way that you guys have phrased it in the workbook or the Videos. We also have published already a study. Amy Myrick, a former student, who, despite not getting paid, like all of us, when we write these papers, we don't get paid, we give up our time, right? Bless you, Amy, took on the lead on this paper where we looked at therapists. Did their knowledge of how to help that specific client improve over time in the study? And it did. We asked them at the beginning, what are those clients' triggers for self-harm? What are ways that client can use that would help them get through safely at those times? And a bunch of kind of questions like that. And then we asked them again at the end of the study. And their knowledge score for their client they participated with improved. So it backs up what the client said that it helped our relationship. Yes. You know, these were mostly, I mean, we had some therapists who had less experience, but a lot of them had a lot of training and drama. Some were doing talks and writing papers of their own. Um, but but they still got something out of it. The range of therapists we had, they personally got something out of this the program. So I mean, that's those were our two goals help therapists, train therapists, and help clients.

Lisa Danylchuk 45:18

And win, win, win. I like it supporting everyone. And it also sounds to me like another reminder that building what we want to create, you know, focusing on the feelings that are not the trauma is really important, right? Like really finding solid ground, connecting to solid ground underneath us. I don't know if there's a nature ecotherapy element that you're conscious of there too, but hey, we're all on the same planet here, you know, and there's a very real physicality in time and space that we can tune into in a therapy session that we find helpful and that that can help us navigate through so much without, you know, it's almost like I'm thinking of the term lose the forest for the trees. Like you kind of end up so impacted by the impact of the trauma in the past that we're like, oh, well, we'll ground for five minutes at the beginning and then we'll run around the forest together, and then we'll ground for five minutes at the end. It's like, well, what if we slowed? Like all these things we know, all these things we've heard a million times. What if we slow down even more? What if we resource with even more slow, steady pace and reassurance? And what if we commit to that resource over a chunk of time? And what if we get support from this beautiful research team that created us at FSG and we have some structure and some flexibility in it, and we're all doing this together and we're focused on what we want more of. We want to feel solid, we want to feel grounded, we want to feel centered, we want to feel whatever, you know, the vestibular system wants to feel a little more aware of where it is and what's going on. And so all of that just feels like it threads into what we know, but we can go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, grounding. Okay, check grounding, orienting, let's move into the processing. It's like, but you're learning that that stuff allows and creates space for some of these later stage goals to arise naturally. And again, it fits, but we can get so drawn into, well, I have to be doing, I have to be going under the hood and tinkering with this memory or with this part system. And it's like, well, if we really create the space for it, things can also self-organize and and people can improve measurably when we hold that kind of space where it has that clarity and intention and structure and research support and humanity, right? It's not so fixed, it's structured, but it's also human and responsive.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Wow, you said that beautifully.

Lisa Danylchuk 48:03

Well, I'm so glad it's recorded because I probably wouldn't be able to say it again.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

You nailed it. You you really nailed it. Um, one thing I didn't emphasize, but you just picked up on it anyway, is we gave people access to this program, but we said go at whatever pace fits for you and your client. So they the team got to decide it together. We did not allow them to move faster than one topic a week. Because to truly take in this information, to truly journal and practice the exercises, we we do believe you need at least a week. The Purdue team every single week did a new topic. I think the vast majority of people will need more than a week on a topic. Yeah. And so, yes, it's a manualized program, but there's so much flexibility, just exactly what you said. People with their clients, client and therapists together as a team can decide what pace works for this client at this point in their healing. Yeah, maybe in a few months, they're gonna have some life challenges and they're gonna need to slow down even further.

Guided Gravitational Grounding Practice

Lisa Danylchuk 49:15

Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, so it's responsive. Yeah. So as we wrap up for today, I'm wondering if you could give us a sample of any finding solid ground practice, a moment you've recorded videos, you've probably led a million people through these things, but what's something that might be good for therapists that are listening for any human who's listening that just wants to recenter ground for a moment? Would you mind guiding us?

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Not at all. So, again, shouting out to Ruth Lanius that she has really helped me understand the importance of doing this gravitational vestibular balance system grounding. Let's try that. And I it's an invitation to anybody out there. If you don't want to do it, obviously don't feel compelled. But if you could, I'm I'm sitting in a chair right now and I'm bouncing up and down if you don't happen to be looking at me. I'm just gently bouncing a little bit. I mean, up and down, and I can feel, and I'm inviting you to feel along with me, feel how the gravity of the earth gently holds you upright and hold you to the earth. We each have a secure footing on the earth because of this gravitational pull, it keeps us upright. And for some people, sometimes going side to side helps rocking. We've seen a lot of our clients sometimes rock in session or move however they move. They may at times curl up, they just think if you could. Now I'm shifting a little bit into a different kind of um, I would stay with a client with gravitational grounding like we just did for a much longer. But another thing we ask in our we suggest in our trainings is listen to your body. What is if you can, if you're at that place in your healing, what is it your body, what sensation is your body wanting or needing now? So as people learn to do that, they learn to develop a sense of trust in their bodies. And of course, in the beginning, it feels like I am not going there, but over time they can learn. Maybe I need a warm jacket or a pillow to hold or my pet to hold. I need that warmth, that fur, whatever. Listen to that and see if you can allow yourself in safe ways to take care of what your body needs.

Conference Invite And Closing Thanks

Lisa Danylchuk 51:55

Yes, so much wisdom in that. Thank you, Bethany. I get to see you next week in 3D. Yes, we can dream storm with a whole host of people. So, for folks listening, uh, if you listen to this episode the day it comes out, you can still register for the conference. We'll be in Portland, Oregon, with the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Association. It'll be Bethany and myself and my dear mama and Dr. Jennifer Gomez. Shout out to Jen for dreamstorming. We'll be doing it in the plenary, the four of us on Saturday. So love to have you there and joining us. And even if you're not, either way, whether you're there or not, let's keep the dream storm alive. Let's bring together all this amazing and beautiful work. Thank you. Thank you, Bethany, for everything, for all the moments, for every all the, I want to say all the blood, sweat, and tears, but all the love and compassion and care you've poured into this research and into your work with clients and into your work training other therapists and teaching for so many decades. I so appreciate you. I know my clients appreciate you. I can't confirm or deny any names, of course, but uh your name comes up in session, and people say, Oh, I'm just so grateful for her and for her work and more people like that, please. So made my day. Wonderful, wonderful human. So thank you, thank you for coming back on the show and for sharing Finding Solid Ground with us in all the ways. So it's the book, the workbook, the website, findingsolidground.info, and then app coming soon. Yes. Thank you so much, Lisa. Thank you, Bethany. I'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

All righty. Bye-bye.

Lisa Danylchuk 53:38

You made it to the end of the episode. Thanks for listening all the way through. Now that you've been listening for a while, I'd love to hear back from you. What's an idea or a story from this episode that sticks with you as we wrap up? Or what's one small thing you can do today to choose a step in the direction of healing or growth? Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube, on Instagram at how we can heal, or send me a message at info at howwecanheal.com. Also check out howwecanheal.com for free resources, trainings, and the full transcript of each show. If you're listening and loving the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you're listening right now. If you're watching on YouTube, click the buttons to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the show with anyone it could benefit. Before we wrap today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions, it's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own, and opinions can change. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today again, and everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the fur babes while I record. Last and never least, I'd like to send some love to my big brother Matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here. Till next time.