Anxiety Isn’t A Flaw — It’s A Nervous System Signal w/ Keith Hagar EP 204

Anxiety Isn’t A Flaw — It’s A Nervous System Signal w/ Keith Hagar EP 204

What if anxiety isn’t something broken in your mind, but a signal from your nervous system asking for care?

In this episode, Keith — founder of Holistic Brotherhood — joins us to explore how men can move from burnout, numbness, and constant “red alert” into grounded strength and real connection by working with the body, not against it.

Keith shares his own turning point: selling almost everything at 24, leaving England, and walking away from drugs and alcohol. That decision didn’t remove his pain — it exposed it. Through years of coaching, therapy, breathwork, and somatic practices, he discovered how a dysregulated nervous system drives anxious thoughts, compulsive behaviour, and shame — and how regulation brings clarity, choice, and calm.

We talk about:

• Why anxiety often starts in the body, not the mind
• How unresolved childhood stress shapes adult coping
• Simple tools to shift out of “red,” including box breathing and cold exposure
• The limits of traditional fitness and why nervous system literacy matters
• The barriers men face around emotion, anger, and vulnerability
• How brotherhood and men’s circles create healing through being seen — not fixed

This is a grounded, practical conversation about learning to feel safe again in your body, letting go of the “tough it out” myth, and building strength without armour.

If you’re feeling stuck on red, try three minutes of box breathing today and notice what shifts. Share this episode with someone who needs it, subscribe for more grounded conversations, and leave a review to help others find their way back to calm and connection.

You’re not alone — reaching out is a strength. 

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I look forward to connecting with you Anita Mattu https://linktr.ee/AnitaMattu

Transcript

Addictions As Masks For Pain

Keith Hagar 1:06

Treating drug addictions, poor addiction, gambling addictions. These are just some of the addictions we go to mask some of these things of disconnect. I mean, gaming's turned into a bit now as well.

Anita Mattu 1:17

Today we're joined by Keith, the founder of Holistic Brotherhood, a mind-body coach who specializes in helping men release stress, heal emotional wounds, and rebuild their lives through movement, breath work, and nervous system healing. Welcome, Keith.

Keith Hagar 1:35

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Anita Mattu 1:37

So, with that said, that's quite a lot, really. I'm really excited for this conversation. So, with that said, what is one of the most courageous things that you have done?

Keith Hagar 1:49

Yeah, good question, good question. There's been uh there's been multiple points in my life, but I probably would do the biggest one was when I um when I left England, because it wasn't just I left England, I quit all the drugs, I quit all the drink, sold my house, and then uh sold everything I owned, actually, not the house, everything. And then basically uh left England on uh a travel which I didn't really know where I was going to be quite honest. I just didn't want to be uh in what you could say groundhog day anymore. And I'd done that when I was 24. I just decided enough was enough, and I there was there must have been more out there in the big wide world. So uh yeah, that was probably one of the huge you could say crazy or major turning points in my life. I just as I said I had a kind of a goal where I wanted to go live in Australia for a little bit, but between kind of the bits in the middle where I was going and what was happening, um yeah, I kind of just winged it. Um, and that was 12 years ago, so there's been a lot of winging for the last past 12 years. Um so yeah, I'd have to put that was one of the biggest major like moves. I was quite young then, I was only 24 when I done that.

Carrying Family Burdens Too Young

Anita Mattu 3:06

Wow, that's quite a lot to be dealing with at such a young age. But you just mentioned drugs and alcohol. Just tell me what life was like before you moved.

Keith Hagar 3:16

Yeah, good question. Uh between that, between kind of like 18 and 24, I was pretty wild. It would live pretty much drink drugs and rock and roll. Um a lot of it during that stage was kind of to block out a lot of my past childhood trauma. Um, so you could say as escapism or being able to cope, or I'd I also put it down to a lot that I didn't really care if I lived or died at that point because of all everything I grew up with. Um I think for me I didn't really know how to cope, uh moving into the adult world. Um, you could say, I mean, 18's not really an adult, but the way I felt I was kind of let off the uh let off the um chains, and I think that just let off the chains, and because it was kind of like being in England at that age, it was kind of like that age or that time, it kind of felt like it was like the rite of passage, like everyone seemed to be going to 18, just getting drink drunk, like it was just what had to be the last holidays, the drinks, the drugs, the parties. I mean, but deep down as I know now, it was just to escape basically all the pain I was in, um, and all the trauma and just block out everything. And a lot of the time I it was like false sense of like who I was. So I was trying to be someone else or to be this person, kind of everyone thought you should be, but other than it, I was just masking everything basically.

Anita Mattu 4:49

Wow, what a journey, and well done for you to take that road. I mean, it could have been very different. So I absolutely applaud you for making that move because 24, you're still young then, you're still absolutely, you know, you're still finding your feet to move, sell everything and move and not know what is next is a big, you know, trusting whatever the universe, you know, you you're going with it.

Keith Hagar 5:17

Yeah, and it's it's funny because like everyone thought like you should do this. Yeah, I was like, nah, I'm like, well, I'm pretty stubborn in my things anyway. Uh I was just like, I've had enough. Like, I also it's like I want to I want to see what's out there, like I want to see what's in the world. I don't want to be stuck in like there's got to be more than like I mean at 24 I it's pretty young to have like I actually had my house a lot younger. Um it's a lot, it was too much because I took it from my mum just because of uh financial situations where uh she got herself in. So basically we would have lost a family home anyway. So I took the house as I like we need to keep it, we need to keep it, but it it was a financial but it was my mum's burden put onto me, and I didn't know that back then. And I was like, oh yeah, I've got a house, but like I I had the house like before I was even 21. Wow, and and it wasn't like I have I get it because my mum's giving it me, it's getting it. I I took it because my mum had a a business what financially ruined her, and she put the the money against the house. So it's either I take the house or the government takes the house. So again, and at first it was all fun and games, but like after a while it was I didn't realise that it was just too much pressure. I mean, to be to uh to be I had like 21 to have a house, try and look after it. I don't even I can barely look after myself, I'm still completely off my head at the weekends, and the house was slowly turning into where everyone would come over and just carry on the party. And I just wasn't ready for it, you know. And and I should and again at the end of the day, I shouldn't have taken on my mum's burden. I should just I've had my own path, not my mum's path. And that took a long time to I mean it's a very long time to kind of understand that. It wasn't until I my early 30s where I was starting to understand these things.

Anita Mattu 7:09

Yeah, that's really courageous of you to do that, absolutely. And like you said, you know, it's the emotional going on behind the scenes, struggle, stress. I mean, I can understand how alcohol and drugs played a part as well. You needed some release, but you know, not always the best way at all, is it?

From Partying To Purpose In Fitness

Keith Hagar 7:32

No, I mean it's it's partly why it's also probably partly why I got to the point where I had to make a choice, you know. I got to a point where like it's funny because the weekends I was just completely out of it, and it'd probably take me like three or four days to feel normal in the week, but I'd still be in the gym because I worked in the gym in the fitness area, so it's like it was like in two worlds. I was in this world where people would be like healthy and this, and then the next world I was completely destroying myself. Um, and it just as it got older, it just got to a point where I was just like, I was destroying myself so much that like I couldn't, and the downs were getting so bad and the highs weren't that good, and I was just getting to a point where like my brain was fried. I sometimes on the calm downs I couldn't speak properly for a few days. I couldn't remember, I was having blackouts, I just felt crap, and then I was like, look, I'm like, I don't want to feel crap anymore, and I enjoy being in the gym, I enjoy training people, and I've I'm good at it. So I'm like, there was this it was like this internal struggle, which I now realize I've always had an internal struggle from a very, very young age. Um, but it was that was the there was a big like internal fight there, but it was really the fact I wanted to, I enjoyed helping people, and I think realistically that that enjoying helping people and believing I know I can be a really good trainer. Uh these were the main two things, and the fact that I just had enough of drugs, and I was just like, boom, done, cold turkey, that was it, and I have been clean now for I'm 38, I'm 39 soon. So it's been a long time since I've touched any of it.

Choosing Sobriety And Helping Others

Anita Mattu 9:07

That's absolutely well done to you. Absolutely, because it's a big thing to go through. So, is that what took you on your journey of becoming a mind-body coach?

Why Men Disconnect And Go Numb

Keith Hagar 9:16

I think it was a couple of different things to be honest. I think also my like healing journey of like figuring out where I come from and what I had to go through because I thought my childhood was normal, but when I actually started looking through therapy and going through all like learning all my uh holistic breath work and like releasing all my trauma and everything, I realized my um childhood was an absolute nightmare and it was not normal in any way, shape, or form. Um so like I think learning going like I've now I'm a type of person, apparently all this is also the reason why I made the choice. I wanted to lead by example, and because of my history and background and what I learned from all my like courses and studying and working with multiple different people in the holistic and healing area, I realized like uh I can actually actually help people because I've actually come from this. So when someone tells me their story, I can relate a lot of times coming from childhood abuse, coming from bullying, coming from like my dad passing having an accident coming from suicide to like stress, addiction, like all these things I've had one point. I mean, I've been it's only to like in my like my late my early 30s where things slowly started calming down, but I've been realistically in a battle with myself for 30 odd years. Um and I when I started like realizing I healing, I was like, you know, I can and I started speaking to more men on my travels. I was like, well, people actually have the same thing I do or have been in similar things, and I think that's when it slowly started like changing from the personal training and everything I've done there in nutrition, it started morphing into the new uh stuff I do with the men and the brotherhood now.

Anita Mattu 11:08

Oh, that's brilliant, and yeah, just so is that what actually inspired you to create holistic brotherhood? And I love the name holistic. I love the you know it's brilliant.

Keith Hagar 11:20

Yeah, I think that's what that's what inspired me. And I I put the W in front of the in front of it because I cla I use that as like a spin on it, and it's class as the whole. You put the W as the whole as in holistics, it's a class as the whole body, mind, body, and spirit, because we can't just look at I mean it's this but like back in the day, it's just like you just look at the body, you just train, but it's not just about that, it's the internal, like central nervous system out keeping the body calm and stressed, but then also you've got the uh nutrition to keep the body, so it's a bit of everything, it's not just one uh facet, and this is just again, this is everything what I like went through, all my education, everything I'd learnt along the way. Um, and that's why I specifically were focused on working with men because I know where they should exactly where they struggle, um, and that's exactly how I can help people. When they come to me, I'm like, I've got all the XYZ, I'm like, yeah, I've been there, I can I understand, I can relate, and I actually feel what it feels like to be in that space and how to move you from that space with everything I've gone through, and hopefully you don't have to go through the chaos I went through, and you can skip the little parts of it, and then we move forward faster.

Anita Mattu 12:33

Absolutely. So, why do you think so many men struggle with stress, burnout, and emotional disconnection?

Anxiety As A Nervous System Issue

Keith Hagar 12:41

That's a good question. I think if I step back and look at like the fundamentals of why kind of men struggle, or the ones, and even it's a lot of it to do with like disconnect and not really maybe understanding and that societal pressure of you have to be a certain way, of like you have to be this tough guy who can take everything, and you know if something happens, you don't cry, you just kind of push it one side and carry on. But basically, that's I mean, that's a false sense of security, and it doesn't uh it doesn't like if you come from that kind of understanding, which is kind of the old paradigm, and it's a little bit around now still, that you're never gonna feel like centered in yourself, and usually generally with that, like men struggle to express, um, and they because they feel they're gonna be judged. Because it when with the whole aspect of the whole macho man thing in good or bad ways, when you've uh when you can't like express something and everyone's on the same level or they don't really say it like, yeah, I feel sad, but there's a lot more under sadness, you know, and they feel like they're gonna be judged. I mean, this is why uh I never spoke out, or I never spoke about. Plus, you don't know who can hold it if it's just your friends, they're like, Oh, it's fine, tap you on the back, like uh let's come on, let's go out, we just get drunk, kind of thing. I mean, this is how I grew up anyway, but it's changed a bit now. But I think a lot of it's uh it's disconnection and and with also the societal pressure of like we need to do well, you need to have a business, you need to do this, you need to do that, need, need, need, need. You have that pressure to provide, and you don't even really know what you're supposedly supposed to do anyway. So you have this false sense of like um having to go out and like push yourself for an invisible thing you don't know what it is, it's an invisible societal pressure. So I think there's there's many different facets to say it's just one, but most of the time it links down to like uh feeling feeling judged, having that still like um they've never been taught what emotion regulation is or how to calm themselves, and it's the it's what the man should be.

Anita Mattu 14:58

And I I can't agree more with you because masculinity it's what it's perceived, how they should behave, you know, and this day and age a lot more men are showing their emotions, and there's a lot more honesty about you know, you don't have to be tough, you don't have to be this macho, you know, you can cry, you can show your emotions. It is changing, which is absolutely brilliant, because otherwise the men are getting uh emotionally uh burnt out and everything you're saying because they're holding it in, and it's about time, and if not, you know, this is when you should be sharing and showing each other you can do this, and you've got people like you that are there being through so much that can help you first hand.

Keith Hagar 15:44

Yeah, and as I said, it's um I think it's understanding like um a lot of like most of the times, if even like I take it from my journey, you don't know you're in it really, you don't really know what's going on. So, and when on top of that you're supposed to act a certain way, it's hard to it's hard to comprehend that maybe you're completely just completely stressed out, and these addictions are linked to your stress, because I mean but we all like there's quite a lot of similar patterns we men go through, and it's I mean, drink drug addictions, poor addiction, gambling addictions, these are just some of the addictions we go to mask some of these things that disconnect. I mean, gaming's turned into a bit now as well. So, I mean, these addictions are just masking things, but it's seen as just this is just what men have. It's not what men have, it's it's just the same as women having their addictions to certain things, it's just it's packaged in a different package. Um, I think it's a lot of time even if from my experience you don't really understand the addiction and why the addiction is there, you're masking something of some reason, but you're either too scared or you feel like you're not uh seen or heard. So as soon as someone can come along and kind of see that, it helps. I mean, this is even happening with kids when they're younger as well. It's like in school they don't feel understood. It's because like again, they're not seen as the that actual just the person, rather than seen as like you're just like kind of a person, you've got to do it this way in school. You sit there, you learn off the board, blah, blah, blah. You're not seen as like a person, you just see as part of the system per se, the matrix.

Anita Mattu 17:23

And it's so true, absolutely. And they have a lot more help now in schools than they would have done in our time. So that's really good to mention as well. Absolutely. So, how does the nervous system influence men's mental and emotional health?

Core Struggles: Judgment And Isolation

Simple Stress Tools: Breath And Cold

Keith Hagar 17:40

Yeah, great question. So basically, the easiest way to simple terms with emotions, uh, the nervous system is when you're feeling completely on edge 24-7, uh, you're kind of having consistent anxiety, but you kind of really don't know what it is. Um, you have the knots in the stomach, uh, tension of the jaw, just constant, like maybe the shoulders tension, uh, these and like maybe clammy hands. And then when it really hits, you can feel that like uh adrenaline hit, like you're ready to fight or run away. This is like a common, this is what they call fight and flight. Um, this is kind of like I don't know, when someone jumps out at you and they scare you, like in a movie or something, you get that adrenaline dump. Uh, this is what we call the fight or flight system, and this is basically as it says, you're either ready to fight or you're ready to run away. And basically, your body just lives, if your body's consistently living in this, I call it the I use a traffic light system, so you're on the like red light forever. Then you're gonna start when you move in this red light, you start being up here in your head. So when you're on the red light, you're in your head, so you can't calm the body, you can't calm your mind. That's when the mind runs away, that's when you have the intrusive thoughts, that's when you start hating yourself, it's when the depression, anxiety, and everything else comes along with it. So this is basically I had a poster recently saying about uh anxiety is not anxiety, it's actually a nervous system. Because if you take away, if you calm the nervous system, the anxiety will go away. If you move it from red alert down into orange and then into green, your mind will calm. When the body's calm, the mind's calm. And this is uh a lot of things, and even I've gone through it, and uh again, it's one of those things people will always get to a point where, but you fight, it's an internal fight between your body and your head. Body head, body head, body head. Um, and you're like, why am I so stressed? Why am I this? Why am I that? And then you're just creating the wheel even more. So it's usually about bringing the mind and the body together and calming them both. Because once you calm one, they both calm. But it's also adjusting these stresses as well, because obviously once you're in the it's not just the body, it's external stresses, it's past stresses, it's it's everything forward, back, left and right. And most people now, from my experience and my own self, is nobody lives so much in the present. They're always thinking in the future, always thinking behind, or always uh always stuck somewhere, but not actually stuck in the actual point of time now. And this is where all the mental struggles and the burnout, the depression, the anxiety, the loneliness, um the disconnect, this is where it all happens. You're not actually in the present. And so it's about focusing the nervous system, about coming back to center. Um, we're always gonna have a fight with a nervous system, we're never gonna be perfect because it's what it is for our body. But considering also with the societal things now, it puts us in red alert 24-7. Um, and we don't even know we're in red alert 24 7 half the time. We just have anxiety, I'm like, yeah, but anxiety is there's underneath it.

Anita Mattu 20:56

It's really interesting. Really interesting. So thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah. So what are the most common issues men come to you with?

Keith Hagar 21:06

I is they meet kins there common. There is many different assets. I have a lot of people ask me this question. I always like because it's always a multi-layer thing. But I think if I whittle it down to probably the the top couple, it's basically underneath it all is realistic the connection. They feel disconnected, not just from themselves, but actually from other people in the world. And it's fear of being judged. If I express something, someone's gonna say I'm like XYZ. I mean these are the of course underlying it, there's uh the first thing they feel anxious, they feel burnt out, but if you dig under it all, it's generally the fear of judgment and uh the um the connection, the connections themselves and connections to other people.

Anita Mattu 21:57

So what practical steps can men take today to regulate their stress?

Healthy Anger And Real Vulnerability

Keith Hagar 22:03

Yeah, great question. The simplest and quickest way to regulate stress would be uh breathing techniques, something simple like uh the box breathing, which is a simple breathe in for four, hold for four, exhale for four, and then hold for four. You can do this anywhere, anytime, anywhere between three to ten minutes, and that'll calm the nervous system real quickly. Another super quick uh way, not everybody likes this one though, but the cold showers. Um cold showers, uh, or even going into a cold lake or something, this will regulate the nervous system really quick. But again, not everybody likes the cold, so uh usually the box breathing is the quickest way um to kind of regulate the nervous system, and then then it's looking at external stresses as well. So, I mean, even if you calm yourself, your body, you can maybe open the door and boom, it's back again because of uh whatever's happening around you. Um so as I say, you're starting to look at multifaceted things then, so it's not just calming the body, we need to look at like maybe what's happening around, X, Y, Z. So, but the breathing and like the cold shower, they're the two quickest things will regulate it as fast as possible and bring you back to a center.

Anita Mattu 23:27

That's absolutely brilliant, yeah. That's really good. What's one of the biggest challenges men face when they try to step into vulnerability?

Keith Hagar 23:36

I think I actually had a conversation yesterday, and if I uh if I it's a brilliant question because it links into this, actually, it's fear of being judged and uh and being like being scared. They're scared if they speak out, they're gonna be judged for what they say. So even if they simply feel like I feel sad because of XYZ, somewhat they feel like someone's gonna judge them because they feel sad for that, or they feel angry, like I'm angry at XYZ. They feel they're gonna be judged because you're like a guy's not meant to be angry because it's toxic, you know. I'm like, no. We have emotions, and every emotion is valid. Of course, we're in a world now where everything seems to be good or bad and toxic or untoxic or whatever people want to class it as. But at the end of the day, every single thing has emotions, even animals have emotions, and you can see it. If a dog's scared, it has its tail on it. If a dog's angry, it barks. This is the same with humans. If they feel sad, they're gonna kind of go in on themselves. If they feel angry, it's gonna go out. But generally now, men feel if they put the anger out, their class is toxic or abusive or so less because they keep it in. Of course, I'm not saying that it's a guy should scream the house down and turn abusive, that's wrong. But there's healthy ways to express anger, there's healthy ways to express everything, and I think there's not been that um they haven't been taught how to express this in a healthy anger, and it stays inside, as most men do, and it gets to a point where boom, they explode like a volcano, yeah. Um, and of course, this isn't healthy. Um so, but again, this happens on both sides of the spectrum, women and male. Um, so it's not just uh point to M, but it just again, the society of things again has been told that you shouldn't be angry, you shouldn't be sad, you shouldn't be this, you shouldn't be that, and then you're left with like what should the guy be? Like, and I think when he gets to the point, it's like what should the guy be? Then it's like I'm scared to do anything. Yeah, it's again, it's difficult in that sense, and then again, growing up in an era like we grew up. I mean, if you cried, you were seen as weak. Um, I don't know what the new generation is uh like the younger generation now, but I can't see it's changed too much. I think the statistics now in school aren't much different from when I was in school to now. The bullying statistics are still up, everything's still around the same thing, so things haven't changed that much. We've just come a little bit more aware.

Anita Mattu 26:11

Excellent. I really love that. Yes, because uh absolutely then how does one behave? Because you know, they're stripped away and they don't know what to do then, yeah.

Keith Hagar 26:20

Yeah, and this is when it leads into you don't know what to do and you block it, and then when the block comes from everything working, drink, drugs, alcohol, addictions, and this is where you block. So, I mean you're blocking pain because you don't know how to deal with the pain, and and again, this can come in many different forms, and it's seen with everyone, male and female, but as I said, it's with again men we have our ways of doing things, and usually it's self-destruction.

Anita Mattu 26:47

Yes, can understand that, and so this is why brotherhood and men's circles are so important right now. So, can you just tell me a bit more about that?

Keith Hagar 26:59

Yeah, I mean, in the the men's circles, like people are like, Oh, what is that? I mean, it's not much different for a female circle, to be honest, but um but to be honest, like it's about bringing the um men together in a safe space. And I know that like having that brotherhood is like having people like who you sit there and like you speak your you speak about whatever you need to speak, and someone turns around, like, oh yeah, I understand that. I've been there, like, you know, and it's not about giving advice, but it's about reflecting and actually realizing like ah, I'm I say my pain or whatever I'm dealing with, or wherever I can depend how much they want to open up, XYZ, and then someone's like, Wow, like I've been there, I understand these feelings, and then all of a sudden the person feels seen and heard, and this is a lot what it's about. I'm like, Well, like you're seeing you could say you're being seen on a deeper level, not just your physical, like someone's reflecting back their own struggles to you, and you're like, Whoa, you've been in similar things to me, like, and then you start connecting, then you realize, like, oh, I'm not alone, I'm not, I don't have to be alone. Like, there's someone in in these in these groups, they're all struggling in XYZ, which all seems a little bit similar, and they're not judging me, they're not calling me a name, people are crying and supporting them. I'm like, and you see, and like you sit there and like, whoa, I feel I'm part of something, and it's really healing like to be in these circles, and me as a facilitator, and it's it's really rewarding in just knowing that like you're bringing these people together, and like not only are they feeling, seen, heard, but they're actually healing, and and I'm healing myself through all these people, so it's multifaceted, and and most of the time, I mean, I've been when I facilitated the men's circles when people come in, and you can see they're completely like they're completely lost, and after a few weeks or so of being in circle and they're opening up, they change to be a different person, and you're it's like then you can see it in their eyes, and they're like hugging every we have a group hug at the end, and just everyone feels connected and they leave and they feel like oh sometimes like you will you leave the circle and it's like oh everyone goes and hangs out and have food, and it becomes like I said, it becomes like you have you have friends, but it's on that deeper connection, which you don't having friends in school, it's like yeah, you grow up with them, but you don't necessarily have that deep connection where they truly understand you, and this is why the men's circle is like and having a brotherhood is so important, especially for men, especially for men.

Anita Mattu 29:40

Yeah, I really hear you there, and it is about that deep connection because on the surface level, uh, we can all be friends, we can we're all fine, and everything's fine, but having that deeper safe space as well, I think that's what is really important as well. Because like so many men feel isolated even when they're surrounded by people, and it's just being able to be whoever they are without having to have the masks on, you know, having to be a certain way, just be yourself, absolutely, yeah.

Seeing People Beneath Addiction

Keith Hagar 30:13

Yeah, and I think this is what you say, it's really important there. It's like be yourself. I think it's got to a point in the world where you can't be yourself because if you do anything what's abnormal to society, you're like, especially as a man, you're seen as like whatever it may be bad, abusive, wrong, sick, anything. What's just like I mean, it's like he's just a dude. Like, everyone makes mistakes, everyone has their issues, everyone has their past. Like, just see the person for it, understand understand that generally, even on even for women, generally, if they're like really struggling with things, they're gonna act a certain way. Maybe they haven't been taught, maybe they've gone through abuse, maybe they're struggling mentally. You don't really know what they've gone through. And in this also, sometimes even when I walk around and I see some of the uh the drug addicts on the street, I'm like seeing them, I'm like, I know probably they're mask, I know underneath it all they're masking themselves because they're so broke, they they feel so broken, and it's just they haven't been seen and heard, so they have to run away with drugs. And it's sad really because of course addictions uh uh people have addictive personalities and it can lead to further things as well. But underneath it all, there's the emotional aspect, and this is what leads us to that.

Anita Mattu 31:35

That's so interesting though, isn't it? Just you know, if people just allow us to be without feeling judged, without feeling all the insecurities of society, it life would be such a better place to live in, you know. We'd all feel a lot more comfortable. Yes. So, what is one of the most important lessons you've learnt over your life? Because let's face it, you've probably learnt quite a lot.

Trusting Intuition And Self-Compassion

Keith Hagar 32:01

Oh my great question. I have to ponder on this one. One of the important lessons. I think probably realistically, if I think of it now, what's coming into my head? The first thing is that I linked uh learning to listen to myself, my intuition. Because uh when I've been probably disassociated and not and disconnected from everything, I've made stupid mistakes. Um stakes I wouldn't have made within or judged myself or being so harsh on myself if I'd literally listened to the internal clock. And it's taken me a lot, a lot, a lot of years. And there has been times where I've made the internal listen as I make the big change, so that was an internal listen. But uh I think it's more like okay, if something comes to it and doesn't feel right, and I feel it in my body, that it's probably the right thing to listen to, rather than just like not listen to myself and then go anyway. And usually when I don't listen to myself, it ends up in not the best situation, and then I have I've made some form of mistake, whether it's big or little. So I think that for the me the biggest thing is that learning my ins learning to listen to my own intuition, my own body, and what I need to make uh to keep myself sane, basically.

Anita Mattu 33:16

And that's so true, and yeah, absolutely. Uh you know, people can take a lot from that because we've got to trust our gut instinct, we've got to trust ourselves, and we so many times don't, and then afterwards we kick ourselves because yeah, I should I knew I should have listened to myself. How many times do we do that? Absolutely, so well done. That's absolutely fantastic, yeah. Great place to be in.

Keith Hagar 33:38

I think I was just mentioning on that that like having like kicking ourselves because we made a mistake, and people we get really harsh on ourselves, and realistically, we're we are human, we make mistakes, and this is also I've seen a lot with uh men, they're like, Oh, they make they like they get stuck because they feel they should have done something else. But when you take it back to everything, you made a mistake. This is society now telling you like you've you're a bad person for doing this, whatever it may be. But at the end of the day, we're human. There's only so many we can say yes or no, we can move left or right, and it's not to be so harsh on ourselves. And again, coming from my own personal experience, I've destroyed myself for making just like even the simplest of choices, it doesn't have to be like that.

Anita Mattu 34:27

Yeah, absolutely. And it just to echo what you've just said, yeah, it doesn't, it really does not have to be like that. If there was one key takeaway you want every listener to walk away with today, what would that be?

Keith Hagar 34:40

That you're not alone. It doesn't matter what part of your life, whether you're in an amazing part of your life where you mean in like maybe not so good, that you're not alone, and that just by reaching out, you're not it's actually you think you're weak to reach out and that nobody actually cares. But actually, if you find the right person and reach out to the right person, you'll see that the whole world will change for you. It's just about how taking that in it's brave. You're gonna be in your power and in your strength if you say, like, I'm struggling with X, Y, Z, can you please help? In a way, obviously, that someone can understand, and you realize by doing that, you'll feel there's so much pressure taken off, you won't feel alone, you won't feel isolated. Um, and this is the way forward, whatever it may be. It's just taking that little step, whatever it may be, even if it feels scary.

Anita Mattu 35:31

That's brilliant. Thank you for sharing. So, where can the listeners find you online? What's your website, Keith?

You’re Not Alone: Reach Out

Keith Hagar 35:38

Uh, you can find me uh online at Holistic Brotherhood, spell with a W and on social media. Uh, same, same name, socials. I'm there. And uh, yeah, if you do need a bit of support, I also offer a men's uh support group on WhatsApp where it's a group of like-minded men um asking questions and just generally being there for each other. Um it's a small community, but um, it's there when you need it. So if there is an extra bit of support, there is that group for anyone who needs that.

Anita Mattu 36:08

So if you do need to have any help whatsoever, please do get in touch with Keith. All the links will be in the show notes. Connect with him, make sure you know help is out there. Most important thing, help is out there. So thank you for sharing your insightful wisdom and knowledge with us today. And by doing so, I know you have helped so many others make a difference. I really want to acknowledge you for that, Keith Hager.

Keith Hagar 36:33

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Anita Mattu 36:35

It's my absolute pleasure. With that said, we are all about Create the Courage to Be Fearless podcast here. What is your definition of courage?

Keith Hagar 36:43

Stepping forward and uh stepping forward and talking. That is courage, 100%.