#4 Why Do Kids "Misbehave"? With Mariko Fairly, Part A

Why are kids screaming? running away? grabbing your shirt?
WHY do kids throw tantrums??

Mariko Fairly, a certified behavioral analyst with over 20 years of experience explains the four reasons that cause our children to meltdown or throw tantrums. We also talked about what are natural consequences vs logical consequences and the FIRST-THEN tool.

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Tammy: 0:00

hi, Mariko how are you today?

Mariko: 0:02

Great how are you?

Tammy: 0:05

I'm doing great. I'm really excited to have you here because I think we have such an important topic today to talk about, which is the four whys behind kids' behaviors. But before we start to dive in this function of behavior is actually a discipline that is being taught in applied behavioral analysis. Right. So, first of all, tell us a bit about what is it applied behavioral analysis.

Mariko: 0:35

Applied behavior analysis. is a science actually. It's the science of behavior and behavior change. And so behavior analysts like me are looking at. The environment to figure out why behaviors happen. And the simplest way to describe that is we're looking at what happens before a behavior and after a behavior. And we use all of that information to make changes to what happens before and after the behavior to change the behavior itself. So, it's really, you know, so much goes into why people behave the way that they do, right? Like sometimes we think, gosh, I have no idea why did my child do that? But I promise you, there's a reason and we just have to look for it. so that's what I work with families on is trying to figure out the way.

Tammy: 1:34

so as far as I understand, there is in research going on for many years and they gathered all the information, the scenarios that happened before the behavior and what was happening after their behavior. And then they could actually distinguish the four reasons for kids and also adult to behave in a certain way. Am I right? So it's, actually. And have you danced based

Mariko: 2:03

Yes, absolutely. So the really cool thing about behavior analysis is it's happening all around us all day, every day, every single interaction that you have with the person at the grocery store or your partner or your child, it's all within behavior analysis. And so we can kind of break down like what that really looks like. But every interaction you're having, there's a, what we call an antecedent. What happens before the behavior, somebody responds in a certain way and whatever happens after the behavior, we call that the consequence. So in my world, consequences, not a bad thing. Consequence just. Something happened after a behavior, whatever the consequences that will change, what happens to the behavior? Will it increase in the future or will it decrease in the future? And we know that, you know, things that are happening in our lives, like a pandemic, for example, a child starting school for the first time, a new sibling entering their life, you know, a death in. the family. There's so many things that impact how we respond to things. So all of that's taken into account as well.

Tammy: 3:28

I get that. So let's dive in. We know kids have turned rooms So why are they acting out? Let's dive into it.

Mariko: 3:36

sure. So, yeah, like I was saying, you know, there's so many, um, kind of environmental factors that play into why people behave the way that they do. And I love what you said. It's so true. This certainly applies to our children, but it applies to ourselves, our partners, our friends, our parents. so yeah, take the information and kind of like, let it simmer a little bit because you'll be like, oh my gosh, that that's something that happened. And I can recognize that now and interaction with my partner. Um, so we talk about the four main reasons why people act the way they do. They want something, they don't want something, they need attention or connection, or it feels good. Something inside their body feels good when they do it. So want something don't want something need attention or connection, or it feels good. And certainly like, I can give you tons of examples, right? As adults, a lot of times, right? We have a job, we get up every morning, we go to work on time. We put in the effort and what's our takeaway at the end, a paycheck, right? We need that paycheck to be able to live in the way that hopefully is comfortable for us. And so that's a thing, that's a tangible thing. Money leads to us being able to buy other things. So for our kids that wanting something more. They want that toy that their brother is playing with. And they might act in a certain way to get that toy. Maybe they're grabbing, maybe they're hitting. And so our job as parents is to teach them a more appropriate way to get their need met, to get that toy that they want without sort of that quote unquote acting out behavior. So when I'm looking at a behavior and when I'm working with a family and they're coming to me and think, gosh, my kid is having such a hard time sharing or with tantrums, we figure out the why do they want something, not want something need attention or connection, or does it feel good? And then my next question is, well, what do you want them to do in school? So once you identify the reason behind the behavior, we have to figure out what we want them to do. Instead what's a more appropriate, alternative way to get their need met. And that's where the teaching comes in. That's where we're going to teach our child to communicate, their want, as opposed to simply acting out.

Tammy: 6:14

So I get that the first reason for tantrums and I think out is something tangible that they want to have, but they don't get it. So that's the no, and why they don't get it. So they feel probably hopeless and they started to scream or buy it or just throw tantrums in whatever way it is. And at this moment, what you are proposing is to actually acknowledge the disappointment and say, well, I get that. You don't get what you want, but now let's think how can you get it? So, for example, with. the older kids, you can just teach them how to ask for whatever they want. And if you have any other suggested how to address this need, please share it with

Mariko: 7:04

well, we, we can and should be teaching our kids communication. From infancy, right? Kids are naturally communicating with us. We just have to look for it. So it starts with babies who are, you know, making eye contact or making noise is to try to get your attention. Um, then joint attention develops. And that's when , you and your child have basically like a reciprocal interaction where maybe you're not talking, but you're looking at the same thing or they're able, you're pointing at something and they're able to follow your gaze. So all of that starts from infancy. And so when we start to label things, so when we're saying. You know, car, duck, bus, and then that transitions to, , play cook, , from nouns to verbs, so we're building language from a very early age, so that even when they're upset and they're crying, oh, you want mommy to pick you up all of that, that modeling that narration, what I call like sports casting that is laying the foundation for communication, the most effective way to teach our kids. What we want them to do is to do it ourselves, right. To model the behaviors that we want to see in them. And so certainly when our kids are having a hard time, sort of my. Three steps of managing a challenging behavior is the first step acknowledge the want or the feeling I understand you want your brother's toy, right? Like that's we have to be able to acknowledge that that validates their feelings, but it also puts the words in their mouth. Oh yes. That is like, they're making a connection. That is what I want. Right. I understand you want your brother's toy. Let's try that again. And you can offer a redo. And that, for me, that means you replay the situation. So if they grabbed the toy or they hit their brother to get the toy, then you're kind of walking them through the process again in real time, because that's how they're going to learn. Okay. You want your brother's toy? How can you get it? You can ask, you can point, you can hold out your hand. You can say mine. So no matter where your child is developmentally, whether they're older and maybe have a lot of language or they're pre-verbal, and they don't have a lot of vocal language yet we can still teach our kids signs and gestures to help them get their need met. And I think that is the key just because your child doesn't have language doesn't mean they can't communicate. There are other ways to communicate and we have to help them find.

Tammy: 9:58

that is so true. I remember when we came to the United state and my daughter just didn't know how to speak English. We were working a lot about emphasizing the importance of nonverbal communication, because it's a, there's actually a lot that you can do, even if you don't speak the language.

Mariko: 10:17

Yeah. Body language is the universal language, right?

Tammy: 10:22

Yeah, that's so true. So I've get what you said about the no. Can we move to the yes. Part? Which for me, I get an example. Yes. So one of my kids doesn't like to take shower. And so whenever we say, okay, it's time to shower varies, many reasons to not shower. So first of all, I get from you. I need to acknowledge the fact that he does not like to shower for whatever reason it is that he just doesn't like to do it. So let's say I did it. What would you suggest? This is the second step.

Mariko: 10:55

Okay. So when our kids don't want something, , it's important to acknowledge it, but there are, I talk depending on your child's age, right? You can sort of frame it in a different way, for young kids, I would focus on the fun and provide a choice, right? So maybe they don't want to get in the bath or the shower, but if you make the situation fun, it kind of redirects their attention away from the thing that they don't want to, the something that they might want. So I might say, do you want bubbles or no bubbles in the bath? Do you want to hop like a bunny or March? Like a dinosaur to the bath? Right. Do you want your Spiderman, bud GMO's or your Peppa pig pajamas? So When our kids don't want something, maybe they don't have that option to not do that thing. Right. So if they have to do the thing, give them a choice of how they do it, give them a choice of who. So do you want mommy or daddy to give you a bath? Um, Or what, like what do you want to wear? Or, how, how do you get there? How do you want your bath or shower even could be a choice. Right. Sometimes there could be aware option too. If you had two bathrooms, you could ask, do you want to do a bathroom upstairs or downstairs? Do you want to do your homework at the kitchen table or at your desk? There is always a choice. And so giving choices to our kids is so important because it gives them a sense of control and that's really what everybody wants. Right. We all want to feel control over our situation. And so, for older kids, I talked to my kids are five and seven. And I talked to them about half twos and get twos. So there are certain things in life that we have to do you and I, we have to go to work and pay our bills and, take care of our kids. That's also a get to, but for our kids, they have to brush their teeth and take a shower and go to school and finish their homework. And the get twos are playing electronics, , vacations, all those types of things that they want to do. So, um, kind of, depending on the age of your child, I think you can frame it in different ways. And even if your child is older, they don't want to do something. I totally get that. You can also set up a first then contingency where, okay, dude, I totally get it. You don't want to take your shower. It's just something you gotta do first, take your shower and then you get to. Fill in the blank, play video games, , sit with me and watch a show. Then it'll be dinner time and we can have fun, like whatever is motivating to them. Put it in that first, then contingency.

Tammy: 13:47

When is the time that you're talking about consequence? Cause you mentioned it earlier today, so you say it's possible. If you don't take the shower, you'll feel , it'd be stinky and maybe smelly. So that's it. That's your own consequence. So when it's the time that you are integrating this into the conversation,

Mariko: 14:07

How old is your child? Eight. Okay. I mean, yeah, So he's old enough where you could be like, okay dude, like you didn't take a shower today. How do you feel? Or there might be some natural consequences. So we talk a lot about that. So we can, we can break that down a little bit. So if you're going to implement a constant. Where you're saying, okay, you didn't do the thing I wanted you to do. So now here's the consequence. There's two kinds that are most effective. The first one is a natural consequence, which means we as caregivers, we have no influence on that. This is just something that naturally happens after a behavior. So like you're saying someone doesn't shower, they might be a little stinky. They might not feel good in their body. Or maybe someone will say something to them like, Ooh, you know, I can smell you. Maybe you need to go take a shower. Right. The same thing happens for kids., maybe you battle your child,, not wanting to wear a jacket. It's cold outside. You really need to put on your jacket. No, I don't want to. So maybe you try, they don't have to wear their jacket. Maybe you just shove it into their backpack and send them off to school. The natural consequence would be, if they're not wearing their jacket, they might be. Right. So we have no impact on that. It's a learning opportunity for them, for future instances. But in the moment we have to be okay with letting them have that experience. And that is very difficult for us as parents, right? Because we don't want our child to suffer. We want to feel in control. There's a lot of different reasons why we might try to push them to take a shower put on that jacket, but sometimes it's okay to just like, let it go and see what happens. That would be the natural consequence. The logical consequence is something that's related to the behavior and we have influence over it. So if a child doesn't finish their homework, then they might not . Get to watch a show after, because. That's what would follow in that first? Then we talked about that first, then first do your homework. Then you get to watch a show, but if you don't finish your homework, then you're not going to get, to watch a show, that type of thing. It's not a punishment in the sense that, , it's harsh or, it's mean it's just simply related to the behavior, right? You didn't do what you were supposed to do for school. So now we don't have time for this other thing. So natural consequence, we don't have any influence logical consequence. We do impose some sort of consequence, but it makes sense. And it's not overly harsh or punitive. Like I work with a lot of families when they come to me say, oh my child was screaming and tantruming and I just took away the iPad for the rest of the week because they just, they can't behave. And to me, that's a very harsh punishment. That's a harsh consequence, especially because kids don't have a good understanding of time. So taking away something for a really long period of time is not going to be effective. At some point, they're not going to be motivated anymore because they don't have that thing that is really meaningful to them. And so you actually, may see more acting out behavior when you implement consequences that lasts for a really long period of time.

Tammy: 17:37

For me, actually, the word consequence is not necessarily, , about punishment. It's I think what you've just described. So. Breathe and play, which is logically and, and natural consequence. So that's what I found for myself, more beneficial.

Mariko: 17:55

great.

Tammy: 17:57

but thanks for saying that. I like it. I'm going to embrace those two, the definitions from now on. So let's move. Cause we had one for the, no, which is tangible. My kid doesn't get the thing you want. Then we had the yes. Meaning that he doesn't want to go shower, but we say, yes, you do have to do it. And so this is the second reason. So let's go to the third one. We did. And attention. So that happens to me a lot when we're having like a Doubleday play date, because my kids have their friends, I have my own friends, but they, they come and grab my, shirts . And they are like, mommy, mommy, but I'm in the middle of sentence and well, they, I know they want the attention, so sharp would make.

Mariko: 18:43

uh, this is a, definitely a big one for parents. I mean, Are born to connect, especially with their parents.. I like to address things from a proactive stance. And so what I recommend to every parent out there, I know life is busy. I know, there's so much on your plate, but find time every single day to connect with your child, even if it's only for 10. And for, so some parents are like, oh my gosh, I don't have 10 minutes. And other parents would be like, I have a ton of time. I'm always with my child. So what I would say to that is it's quality over quantity. Okay. If life is busy, you have older children who are in school, find five or 10 minutes where you can put away your phone, turn off the TV and just sit and play with your child or read with your child. Do whatever they want. This connection time is really key because it's feeding your child, your attention and your love and your affection just because. Not because they asked you not because they're acting out, but just because that's what they need and that's what you need and doing it on a consistent basis where they know they're going to have you is going to prevent acting out behaviors. Because again, that structure and that consistency is going to provide security for your child. So 10 minutes a day, no electronics, no distractions, no siblings. Let them take the lead. I always say like, if they want you to sit and bark, like a dog for 10 minutes, then you sit and you bark like a dog for 10 minutes. If they want to build with their Legos, if they want to play Barbies, if they want to color, if they want to do a board game, that's all wonderful things. That's important work in that moment for you. And if you don't feel like you have a ton of time to do it, Fair enough, or you have siblings or you have multiple kids and you just can't, , remove the sibling from the situation. I totally get that to bring your child into, , some things that you're doing. Maybe you need to clean up the kitchen after dinner, put some bubbles in a, bowl in the sink and let them play in the water and you can talk to them while they're doing it., sit with them during bath time. And instead of being on your phone, or instead of like moving around the bathroom, tidying up, sit with them, talk to them, listen to them. That is such an important thing. And we, I think. Sort of take it for granted that we are spending time with our kids and connecting with them, but it really is the quality of connection. So, , we're not placing demands. We're not telling them what to do. We're not grilling them with a bunch of questions about how school was it's just sitting and being present and engaging with them so that when they want to say something to us, we're there and we can hear it. And when they have our undivided attention. So, , that was my tangent because I think it's such an important thing for us to be doing. So if you're having a difficult time with your kid, always wanting your attention, that's the first place I would start get those 10 minutes a day of quality. Now, when they do come to you in that situation with a play date and , maybe are interrupting you. And I see it escalate a lot of times from mommy, mommy, then they're pulling their, your clothes and then maybe they're hitting because they just really need you in that moment. What I would suggest is early on when they're just doing the mommy, mommy, pay attention. Then that's really important. You want to pay attention to a sort of a lower level behavior and less. You don't want to wait until the behavior has escalated to screaming or a tantrum or hitting because whatever we pay attention to, that's what we're going to keep seeing. So if we only pay attention to the really high intensity, challenging behaviors, like hitting and tantrums, that's what we're going to keep seeing. So when your child is saying, mommy, I might turn to them and say, hi, honey, I hear you. I need one more. Or, , 10 seconds and I'll be right with you., could turn back to your friend, talk for a second. And before your child can come over and start pulling on your clothes and hitting, you're turning back to them and saying, okay, yes. How can I help you? So again, you're being as proactive as possible paying attention. The first time they call your name, as opposed to the 20th time.

Tammy: 23:13

I actually just, you just reminded me that once I heard that you can pull your child hands and say, I'll talk to you in just a second in here. Give me your hand. That would be a reminder for me to talk to you as soon as I'm finishing my sentence. And I did it with my three years old, it worked pretty

Mariko: 23:33

I love that.

Tammy: 23:34

this

Mariko: 23:35

Yes. Yes. I, yeah. Even some kids who like, , that connection, that tactile interaction, or having them like count their fingers on their fingers, , while you're holding their hand or while you're standing with them. Absolutely. I love that.

Tammy: 23:53

Another thing that just happened yesterday that my three years old, like to play with his siblings. And so he sometimes, you know, grab their hair or stuff like that because he wants the attention. So another thing that I thought is what you mentioned too, to help him communicate the needs of come and play with me. My role as a parent is to say, do you want to play with your siblings? So ask them, invite them to join you or play hide, and seek with you other than pulling their hair.

Mariko: 24:30

absolutely. And I think, you know, in three years old, toddlers are, Ooh, I love toddlers, but you know, it's challenging because they're still trying to learn how to communicate and cope. So for toddlers, especially in that situation, I would say less language from us is better. Let's say your toddler's pulling their siblings, hair, your sip, the, your other child's probably screaming or having some sort of response. Cause it hurts. And so in that moment, it's tough. But try to keep your cool and go back to, okay. Want something don't want something needs attention feels good. It might be any of those things, honestly, but probably in the moment there's some attention right. Component. And so it sounds like you're able to identify that you immediately offer the reason. It looks like you want your sister's attention. Say, sissy play with me, you know, whatever, whatever language they're capable of. If they're not, if they have no language, they're pre-verbal, you can teach them to tap on the shoulder. You can teach them to point or gesture to themselves, like, right. Like me. But in that moment, you just say what you want them to say, or you model doing what you want them to do. You don't need to have a big conversation about why didn't you do that? Oh, you want your sister's attention? You can ask her to play. You can write like cut all that out for young kids. You just say, oh, you want your sister's attention? Say sister, that's it because they need to practice the appropriate way. And the best way to do that is immediately when the situation is.

Tammy: 26:12

you know what I also found for myself that it's helpful to talk to the bigger siblings and say, you know what? He wants your attention, but you don't have to met his need for attention. If that's the way he grabbed your attention. So tell him you want to play with me, ask it. And so the siblings are also modeling this sort of communication style rather than hitting back. For

Mariko: 26:38

And that is a natural consequence, right? Because if you weren't in the room, , he might hit or pull or hair. And if the sister were to turn around and say, Hey, I don't like that. I don't want to play with you or better yet. Coach him through the situation. That's a natural interaction. You had nothing to do with that. That's going to change his behavior in the most effective way. So I love that. I think that.

Tammy: 27:07

yeah. When you haven't any 11 years old daughter, then you can coach her how to talk , to her brother. That's the positive thing about having 8 years apart from them. Yeah. And I think we covered three out of the four, so let's go towards the last reason, which is you say feel good. And I would say also the sensory

Mariko: 27:31

really what I need. Right. So there's an automatic reinforcement that's happening in somebody's body. And so, everybody does behaviors that make themselves feel good in their body, so some people might twirl their hair or suck their thumb, or use a pacifier. Some people might, you know, tap their foot or tap their pen. Right. We're all doing things every day, all day, that make us feel good in our bodies. And so, your child might be doing something that is a little bit frustrating to you. Maybe they're always jumping on the couch and you're constantly saying, stop jumping on the couch. Don't do that. You're going to break the couch. Or, you know, some kids like to flip upside down and watch TV, like looking upside down, or maybe your child is likes to go to the top of a play structure and throw things down, or have worked with families who like the child, like spits from the top of the play structure, because they like the way that that thing looks or feels going down. So. If you have a situation like this, it's really important to understand that underlying need so that we can help them get it met in a different way. If your child has that feeling of needing to jump and you don't want them to jump on that couch, give them an alternative, can they jump on the trampoline? Can you make a hopscotch on the floor, out of tape? Can they jump on pillows? Right? Like how can they get that need met so that they aren't doing the thing that you don't want them to be?

Tammy: 29:08

I'm taking it to a different direction because I know some friends have difficulties taking their kids to birthday parties because it's so loud that the kids just can't stand it and you can see by the way, he reacts with his hands over his ears. And so this is another sensory, I guess, um,

Mariko: 29:29

it is a sensory issue That one would fall under the don't want something actually. So, it feels good is yes, it's it has, , there's intrinsic reinforcement in our bodies, right? Like we're getting something, our senses are being stimulated in some way. You know, visually auditorily,, all the five senses sound touch, taste, smell. Yeah. If our kids are having a hard time at a birthday party, it's loud, it's crowded. They, , they cover their ears. They don't want to interact with other kids. That's a, don't want something. So if it's a don't want something, I think then it's important to teach them to communicate, , it's loud and then they can ask for a break. They can ask for help. They can ask, to move away from that uncomfortable situation. And I think it's important that we give kids that opportunity,. That we're not forcing them into situations where they are uncomfortable like that.

Tammy: 30:33

So can you give us another example for sensory? You mentioned jump with, could be another example.

Mariko: 30:40

Yeah,, sometimes kids throw. I throwing as a challenge for a lot of parents. Sometimes kids throw because it feels good or they like the sound that it makes., so throwing could happen for any one of those four reasons. They want something, they don't want something, they need attention or connection and it feels good, but that could be an example. So, , maybe kids are playing with toys and they start throwing them across the floor. And , maybe a parent has a big reaction. Don't do that. You can't do that, play with it this way. But the real reason, the underlying reason that they're doing it is because they like the crashing sound. So if you can figure out why, then you can give them an opportunity to achieve that crashing sound in a way that's maybe a little bit more safe and contained., there are a lot of kids who are sensory seeking in that way. And, I often suggest like having a bin of toys. So if your child likes to hear certain sounds, have a bin of musical instruments, , let them shake them a rock, let them crash symbols together. If they need to that, the feeling of throwing something, can they throw a balls in a bucket?, can you get a basketball hoop and have a designated area where this happens so that they can't just throw all over or throw at people, but they're on a specific map or you're outside in the yard where it's safer. So again, we, as parents can put parameters around. How something is happening,, trying to meet your child's need doesn't mean that you're giving them permission to just do whatever they want. You know, you can still place parameters around where it happens and how it happens and what they're using to make it happen., because I think sometimes that's a concern for parents, right? Like, well, you know, then they're just going to do it all the time. No, you can say, oh, you need to throw right now, let's go to your throwing bin or let's go outside. And you know, you can do it on the grass where it's safe. That be.

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#4 Why Do Kids "Misbehave"? With Mariko Fairly, Part A

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