Playground Talks

#39 Are American Children Immune To Extremism? with Dr. Emily Bashah PART B

• Tammy Afriat and Dr.Emily Bashah • Episode 39

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As the Hostages Crisis is happening in Israel, Psychologist Dr.Emily Bashah and I had this important conversation where we discussed :

  • How can a parent implement the idea of restorative justice versus retributive justice as they handle sibling fights? 
  • Is the American citizens (children) immune to extremism? 
  • How to speak with your kids about tragedies happening in the world? 

Dr.Bashah is the author of the book "Additive Ideologies" and a licensed psychologist with a private practice in Scottsdale, Arizona. She is an expert witness in criminal, immigration, and civil courts, she has worked on high-profile cases covering issues of domestic terrorism capital offenses, and first-degree murder.

Dr. Bashah was awarded the Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues Policy Fellowship and served within the American Psychological Association’s Public Interest Government Relations Office in Washington, D.C. A frequent expert guest in media, Dr. Bashah clinically specializes in mental illness, personal and collective trauma, addiction and grief and loss, as well as family and relationship dynamics. 

Relevant links:
The Optimistic American Podcast
#38 How to prevent extremism from childhood? with Dr.Emily Bashah PART A
#35 Consequences: The Magic of Natural and Logical Consequences In Parenting





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Tammy Afriat, CPC:

In your book, you have something that I really resonate with. You talk about restorative justice. versus punitive justice in the context of countries. But I to ask you, when it comes to sibling fights, how do you implement that idea to help, parent be a better

Dr.Bashah:

parent?

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Yeah, this

Dr.Bashah:

is a great topic. yeah, I did a lot of

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

research and work

Dr.Bashah:

on this, throughout my education, and it's, really relevant even today with our, like, global politics and what's happening in the Middle East. retributive justice is the notion of, revenge. equated

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that. It's an

Dr.Bashah:

eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You hurt me, I'm going to hurt you more. So you learn from it and you learn your lesson. we really don't see that there's a lot of benefit

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

long term

Dr.Bashah:

because

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

aren't

Dr.Bashah:

learning

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

what.

Dr.Bashah:

what, they did wrong. prevent. being punished. and so it's not really developing their emotional intelligence or those pro social norms that I was describing earlier.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

restorative

Dr.Bashah:

justice really,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

versus

Dr.Bashah:

retributive justice. You have to rise above the emotion. And so, We will not find the ideal other than in our minds and in our thoughts, but really, we,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

we

Dr.Bashah:

should search for the ideal. So platonic idealism points out that the ideal that exists in our mind is more true than the shadows we see here on earth. So justice. Has many roles to play and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

one of

Dr.Bashah:

the roles, as I said, retributive is that punishment to the individual as well as removing

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

threat from

Dr.Bashah:

society., the other role could be more restorative

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

in nature,

Dr.Bashah:

which is to restore the dignity, the civility, the courage of a community or an individual and to fulfill that promise. Each life has. To another, and this should

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

especially

Dr.Bashah:

considered as it relates to minors where restoration could offer a means to shape, inform, teach, model, and correct the offensive behavior.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

So

Dr.Bashah:

I have

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

example. I

Dr.Bashah:

was recently approached by parents. And they,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

they

Dr.Bashah:

have a child in school who was being, bullied. It was

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

relational bully.

Dr.Bashah:

It wasn't a physical bully, but it was very, manipulative, emotional bullying. and this other. minor was trying

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

really control

Dr.Bashah:

and through threatening, and,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

scare tactics to, um, get this other child to do everything that they're saying, and they're wanting,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

So

Dr.Bashah:

without disclosing too much information, I know that seems quite vague, but it's, it's a form of relational bullying. So the

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

came

Dr.Bashah:

in very concerned. What should we do? We want to pull our child

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

out

Dr.Bashah:

of school and just move them to another school, remove

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

threat

Dr.Bashah:

completely. and that way my child is safe. and that's what we want to

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And I said,

Dr.Bashah:

well, I don't operate on that model.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

You

Dr.Bashah:

know, what are you teaching your child? You're teaching your child that that you don't believe that they have

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

skills and the

Dr.Bashah:

ability and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

strength to

Dr.Bashah:

really handle it on their own. And what we can do in terms of psychological intervention is really arm your child with the skills to set boundaries and limits and, to really confront that other child head on. and they, they could still actually preserve a relationship

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

through that, but they're also learning how

Dr.Bashah:

to engage. In that difficult

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

with

Dr.Bashah:

their behaviors, with their words, with their actions, rather than being saved and rescued by

, Tammy Afriat, CPC:

parental

Dr.Bashah:

figures,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

it sends the message that the child is capable and that you trust them to be able to do that. And how powerful is that even for the other child, rather than just,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

like,

Dr.Bashah:

being removed and the, you know, then the conflict is.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

like resolved.

Dr.Bashah:

but what is that other child learned that

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

they can

Dr.Bashah:

get

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

with it

Dr.Bashah:

Really? I mean, where's the justice in that? And so, you know, by arming the other child who's like, essentially being bullied in the situation to be able to defend,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

oneself. uh, also

Dr.Bashah:

shape and inform and educate the other child because it's saying like, okay, you can't get away with this. I'm not going to let you. And here's why. And here's the consequences, but Hey, I also care about you and I worry about you

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

I don't

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

where

Dr.Bashah:

you're going. And, you know, we used to be friends and now I'm seeing this turn and change in you and I'm, concerned about you, that there's this other, like

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the

Dr.Bashah:

shared humanity that we were talking about earlier. And so

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

what

Dr.Bashah:

a powerful learning experience and opportunity for both the children involved to be transformed and.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

to be transformed And

Dr.Bashah:

the beauty is It's an experiment. It's all experimental. We have no idea how

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

this is

Dr.Bashah:

going to go. We hope it goes well, but it might not. it could, it could get

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

before

Dr.Bashah:

it gets better. And sometimes, you know, in the state of world politics, that's what happens.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

so, you know, what

Dr.Bashah:

better stage than a playground to really learn these skills at and,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you

Dr.Bashah:

know, to, to, also support our children. It was interesting over the weekend, my husband and I, we were having a conversation about, power struggles with our, she's, she's, two, but she's going to be turning three.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And

Dr.Bashah:

so his

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

was,

Dr.Bashah:

well,

, Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you

Dr.Bashah:

know, I want to step in as the authority. I want her to respect me

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the

Dr.Bashah:

authority. I want her to know that

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

my love is

Dr.Bashah:

conditional.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And I'm like, well, what

Dr.Bashah:

are you teaching her that?

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

That

Dr.Bashah:

your love is conditional

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

based

Dr.Bashah:

on her following your orders

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

directions. What is that

Dr.Bashah:

actually

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

teaching

Dr.Bashah:

her? And you're, you're also engaging in this power struggle with her.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And

Dr.Bashah:

because you're saying, I'm going to win. Like,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

going to be

Dr.Bashah:

my way or no way. And

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you want to fight me on

Dr.Bashah:

it, I'll just prolong the suffering.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

What

Dr.Bashah:

is she learning through that process? What are you teaching her?

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And

Dr.Bashah:

so I had a similar situation later in the day where she was engaging in a power struggle with me. We were going to her friend's house to

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

for

Dr.Bashah:

a play date. And immediately when we got there,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

started

Dr.Bashah:

screaming. Screaming and throwing a tantrum, I wanna go home. no. No,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

no, no. And I was

Dr.Bashah:

embarrassed and my friend is there with a baby. Her baby starts crying.'cause my my daughter's scream screaming and throwing a tantrum. Like, ah, okay. So you know, I

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

said, well, let me just. Take a

Dr.Bashah:

couple steps backward. Let me not engage in that power struggle with her. So I took her back

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the car.

Dr.Bashah:

I put her back in the car seat. I buckled her in. I started to give her

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

of her

Dr.Bashah:

favorite things in the car and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

to talk to her.

Dr.Bashah:

I left the door open. So she started to come down and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

she felt secure and

Dr.Bashah:

safe in her car seat. and my friend ended up coming outside with her baby.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

we

Dr.Bashah:

had a little

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

group

Dr.Bashah:

meeting and play date outside. And, , you know, it took about maybe 20 minutes, maybe 15, 20 minutes. We're talking outside. My daughter starts calming down. Now

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

kind

Dr.Bashah:

of curious about the other baby. Now she's curious about the conversations and what's happening outside. Then she's getting hungry. So she starts asking for ice cream.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

So

Dr.Bashah:

eventually she's Willingly She now wanted to go inside into the house. We stayed another two hours. We had

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

wonderful play

Dr.Bashah:

date.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

was playing

Dr.Bashah:

with the dogs, playing catch

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

with the ball. And

Dr.Bashah:

she had so much fun.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And

Dr.Bashah:

at the end of the day, I taught her, you see, you know, you were,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

were

Dr.Bashah:

afraid and uncomfortable in the beginning, but you know,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

just had

Dr.Bashah:

to take our time and go back And

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Feel

Dr.Bashah:

comfortable. And then we were able to have a wonderful time and see if

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

hadn't stayed, you would, you

Dr.Bashah:

would, have missed

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

all of that fun. And, and wasn't

Dr.Bashah:

that

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

much fun with the

Dr.Bashah:

dogs and the baby? And, you know, so she, she's learning, but I think there's so many

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

lessons in there.

Dr.Bashah:

Like so much of the

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

time

Dr.Bashah:

we want to engage in these power struggles. And not just with our children, with other adults we're having

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

with that we

Dr.Bashah:

ideologically disagree on.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

we

Dr.Bashah:

want to win the

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

because we

Dr.Bashah:

want to show that we're in control, we want to feel we're in control. but it's a

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

lose

Dr.Bashah:

situation. Sometimes we have to, acquiesce. It

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

necessarily mean

Dr.Bashah:

surrendering, but I like

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

think of it as, you know,

Dr.Bashah:

I come around the other side, and I'm approaching the problem with them rather than against them in a power struggle.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Yeah, it's, it's trying to get to the truth together rather than proving that I have the truth. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I know So, it's a different approach, and I also find it so much more effective when we kind of, research together. And so we get to maybe some new conclusion, maybe not, which is also okay, but at least we have the option to have a real dialogue and not a monologue, like two people having just a mock one. So I totally what they're saying. And I wanted to go back with the thing about sibling fights and parent actually embracing. their restorative justice versus, you know, punishing the child. So what I'm hearing he's saying, rather than having the, parents be the judge, quote unquote, he needs to more coach his children, kind of navigate the situation, understand what the other person or the other sibling really wanted and what led him to behave the way he did, and so they can be more. I like to call it effective in their communication because, you know, with siblings, you'll have them forever. So you have a great interest to learn to live with them. So, that's what I was sensing when you talked about those two kind of justice and I love the idea of it. So thank you so much for sharing that.

Dr.Bashah:

Yeah. Coaching is a great way to preface it. Absolutely. Like your role as a parent is not to, go in and be the judge and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

definitive

Dr.Bashah:

authority and, and, to punish like,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

okay, you time

Dr.Bashah:

out, you give this person that it's like really equipping them. with resolving the conflict together on their own and helping

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

see, okay, well,

Dr.Bashah:

what are the consequences if

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

we change places and

Dr.Bashah:

I was them,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

how would

Dr.Bashah:

I feel about the situation? So there's

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

appreciation of theory of mind. And,

Dr.Bashah:

you know, what is a fair outcome? What does even fairness mean? How do you assess fairness? and sometimes you have to give something to win something. What is a win win look like for both parties rather than a win lose situation for either one? and helping them develop the skills to negotiate that together is Very powerful. Very, very powerful. Yeah. I commend you on

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that work. It is,

Dr.Bashah:

it is, It can be exhausting. It takes so much pause and presence and patience.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Yeah, I you know, as a parent coach, I'm familiar with the drama triangle. And I love to use it just as an effective way, to handle kiddos, let them to advocate for themselves, stand up themselves. And actually home is a lab. It's like they're experimenting all those kinds of scenarios in the house. So let them do that. And so they can learn those skills and can it out of the house when they be bullied outside., as you said, you are more powerful when you can advocate for yourself and solve the, the situation, which circle back to being an agency, right? Because when you choose, even if you had bad experiences, when you choose the good over the evil, then you have the power, like you get that you have the power to change whatever you want, you know, to envision for yourself. Does that make sense?

Dr.Bashah:

Absolutely.. Yes.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And, in this way you are, you're

Dr.Bashah:

raising leaders,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

You know, you're raising

Dr.Bashah:

children to be free thinkers,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

to have

Dr.Bashah:

a moral

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

compass,

Dr.Bashah:

to

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

them with

Dr.Bashah:

ego strength.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

teaching them that

Dr.Bashah:

they're not so fragile, that they, they're strong.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

You

Dr.Bashah:

believe

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

their, in their capability to handle whatever coming. In their way, I totally understand that and , I want to ask you We see extremism far away, it's in the Middle East, do you think that the American citizen, specifically also are immune to extremism?

Dr.Bashah:

Yeah, I mean, youth and Children are vulnerable and impressionable population

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

because of where

Dr.Bashah:

they're at developmentally. And

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

absolutely, they

Dr.Bashah:

are susceptible also to becoming extremist. And it's

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

just as

Dr.Bashah:

adults, you know, when you have a simple

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

solution

Dr.Bashah:

or a simplified

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

for a complex problem, it becomes easier to

Dr.Bashah:

wrap your head

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

it

Dr.Bashah:

and then the solution becomes oversimplified. Like just blame them. You know,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

this

Dr.Bashah:

is the good guy. This

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the bad

Dr.Bashah:

guy. This

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the enemy,

Dr.Bashah:

and, it's hard to really deconstruct that. and the tendency is it starts to reduce our fear and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

because

Dr.Bashah:

we want to. Experience a sense

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

control in a

Dr.Bashah:

world that we feel is unpredictable, especially when we have, you know, there, there is like this anticipatory

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

We

Dr.Bashah:

don't know what's going to

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

tomorrow.

Dr.Bashah:

Who's going to try to attack us again tomorrow?

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Who's

Dr.Bashah:

attacking Western democracy tomorrow? You know, what, what are we here for? Like, how long do we have

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

preserve this?, if we really

Dr.Bashah:

allowed ourselves to be confronted with that dilemma

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

that cognitive dissonance I was

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

about

Dr.Bashah:

earlier, you have to do deeper work, and there's deeper questions that are there. And so I think it's fruitful to have those conversations with.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

adolescents, and that

Dr.Bashah:

are age appropriate, developmentally appropriate to help educate them and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

them

Dr.Bashah:

with really understanding and doing that deeper level questioning and grappling with it.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

So gravitating toward addicting ideologies. Comes more to the adolescent, not as early as the toddler, but there is work that we mentioned that can be done to avoid, our kiddos that might be trapped into those kind of extremism. behaviors, right? Yes.

Dr.Bashah:

Yeah. I think, you know, there's the radicalization and extremism groups that, you know, really prey upon the awkwardness and insecurities of adolescence. But,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you know, we saw

Dr.Bashah:

these experiments,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

with

Dr.Bashah:

children where, a teacher was trying to really understand and replicate what happened in Nazi Germany. And she separated her class between the blue eyes. And the brown eyes.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And she

Dr.Bashah:

said, okay, if you have these colored eyes, you are better and smarter and more superior than the group with the other colored eyes. and and you see like within a day. Yeah, they were

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

aggressive to the

Dr.Bashah:

other groups. They started to gravitate towards

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

with the same eye

Dr.Bashah:

color as them. And this is

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you

Dr.Bashah:

know, an artificial experiment. You couldn't do that today, obviously, but this teacher, like it, was amazing. She documented it, she filmed it and, and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

was

Dr.Bashah:

able to. Radicalize these

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

children

Dr.Bashah:

based on the color of their eyes. And so if

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

think

Dr.Bashah:

about that, you know, the,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the inherent

Dr.Bashah:

of separateness that things that separate us into groups and things that re gravitate towards in in a way that justifies

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

dehumanizes

Dr.Bashah:

dehumanizes the other group

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

makes us

Dr.Bashah:

us. hateful, makes us angry, makes us

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

to

Dr.Bashah:

defend ourselves against these other out groups. This

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

dangerous.

Dr.Bashah:

And toddlers are just as susceptible to this. Again, it's a very simple, it's not complex. and I think we're all not immune to it. And it's.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

It's all

Dr.Bashah:

possible. There's so much propaganda

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

distorted content on social media.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

It's hard

Dr.Bashah:

to know, like, what

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

trustworthy

Dr.Bashah:

news, what is fake news. There's so many conspiracy theories

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that

Dr.Bashah:

are out there. you know, so it's a time of paranoia and distrust. And so I think, you know, we also have

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

be careful

Dr.Bashah:

as adults, what we expose ourselves to, and looking at multiple media sources and searching for credible news and information that isn't so fact distorting or conspiracy driven. the other thing, you know, I want to mention for kiddos, especially, and also for adults, that there's this amygdala hijack. what what

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

means

Dr.Bashah:

means is that people who want to influence us,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

if they

Dr.Bashah:

give us information

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

makes

Dr.Bashah:

us feel terrorized or, create an existential crisis, we stop

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

our frontal lobe because

Dr.Bashah:

now our limbic

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

is activated. It's a primitive

Dr.Bashah:

part of our brain. We go into this fight, flight, freeze response system, and we can't necessarily think rationally. About

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

happening or

Dr.Bashah:

think about, consequences, and we act more impulsively because we don't

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that

Dr.Bashah:

behavioral disinhibition or ability to see rationally or logically or way scientific evidence. And so, that is a tactic, that media uses that radicalizers use. so I think it's important just

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

being aware of when that's

Dr.Bashah:

employed when we feel that way. That we should probably really step away, do some self care activities, really ground and root ourselves and come back and really think very critically about the issue rather than just responding,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

out

Dr.Bashah:

of habit or reactivity or impulsively because that's what we're really. Giving up our power and control over the situation so we can also teach our kiddos that adults have tantrums too. I seen it.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

it. I don't,

Dr.Bashah:

politicians have temper tantrums. Adults have

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

tantrums.

Dr.Bashah:

Leaders have temper tantrums.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Oh, I liked what you said about the amygdala hijack, because it circles back again to being a parent and teach your child how to consume content. It's, I also call it the content diet. So I love how you said. you know what? When you see something and it kind of makes you really fear, and you know, you can actually it in your brain when it activates you and then your brain is just in a circle. I feel it like, like you have to run away, run away. You know, that's what I, when I see such things, I'm like, it's impossible. It's impossible. That makes me, that's like the sign for me to say no. That's not something I want to engage anymore. want to stop that and then I need to take some time to, regulate myself, maybe? And I can continue and maybe research that topic and be more educated about it, but with a lot of conscious and awareness of how do I get the... Data, you know, the facts and asking Even before I'm, Google searching. I'm asking myself, what are the things that I want to get the answer for? So I'm not going to be into this rabbit hole. of people fitting me with stuff that they want to fit me with the propaganda. So, I like your note about be aware of the content. Even as an adult that you're consuming and learn to control that for yourself and also teach your child, coach your child to do the same. So thank you for this tip. tip. It's great. I love it. Yeah. And speaking of social media, with everything that's going on with Hamas in Israel, there are many of Horrible videos, horrible pictures. I think for an adult it's so hard to process. I would love to hear your advice around how do you talk about those things with your children. Also, how early do you start talking about those things and how do you present the topic at all?

Dr.Bashah:

Yeah, yeah, I was

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

to my family in

Dr.Bashah:

Israel. and also my cousins and, It's challenging. I think children do. Pick up on what's happening, even if they don't understand it, they might overhear

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

some

Dr.Bashah:

conversations as parents are

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the

Dr.Bashah:

news, maybe hearing,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the

Dr.Bashah:

anger or

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Even, oh no! Mm

Dr.Bashah:

unsure what's happening Like. Like, why why

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

my mom

Dr.Bashah:

crying? Why, why is my dad getting angrier? And he seems to be more irritable and temperamental these days.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

they

Dr.Bashah:

may not be able to draw the conclusions themselves. And so I think

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the

Dr.Bashah:

biggest thing is, protecting children, but you don't have

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

entirely shelter

Dr.Bashah:

them. I think, there's no right or wrong answer. And I just want to say, you know, every child is different

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and,

Dr.Bashah:

Different ages

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

children, very

Dr.Bashah:

developmentally, there's just so much variability that's out there.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and so

Dr.Bashah:

for parents, you really should. Trust your intuition on this one.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

not force anything onto your Children. but really maybe create a space a safe place for them to ask you questions

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

about what's going on

Dr.Bashah:

and just say, there are some things going on in the world today. Is there anything that you've heard or maybe was mentioned at school or maybe you heard Shades of Noir You know, mommy and I talking about what have you heard? Is there any concerns that you have? And so, just asking them so that they, it's more like their own. inquiry that

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

really

Dr.Bashah:

leading the information.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

So

Dr.Bashah:

you're not just giving them lots

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

information

Dr.Bashah:

that they then can't process. The most important thing is that your children feel safe,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that school

Dr.Bashah:

is safe,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

home

Dr.Bashah:

is safe. And really creating that, that

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

of

Dr.Bashah:

safety and security for them, emotionally and physically,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

knowing that their parents are going to be constant,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and they

Dr.Bashah:

can rely on that constancy, from caregivers. It could

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

any,

Dr.Bashah:

any of their caregivers. And so I think that

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

is

Dr.Bashah:

so important,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

to keep them

Dr.Bashah:

mentally and emotionally healthy, you know, so.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Some

Dr.Bashah:

of my cousins who've, you know, I've asked

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

about this approach

Dr.Bashah:

and because they're not, so removed from the situation and we have family in Israel, so they, may show certain things. Like one of my cousins decided

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

going

Dr.Bashah:

to show the Biden speech about Israel. So Biden, you

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

will

Dr.Bashah:

mention words like war and. Identifying Hamas as a terrorist organization that we will fight

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

protect

Dr.Bashah:

Israel. We will defend Israel against their enemies.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

so

Dr.Bashah:

not condoning anything about these attacks with reference to attacks. So there's things that are in his speech, but it's also. Supportive. It's also, comforting to hear like, okay, America is an ally to Israel. They're not going to, allow them, to be harmed. They're going to support them as an ally, and that will help to give them. confidence and hope and optimism. and so, you know, it might be something like that, that you watch with them and then be there to see their reaction. Let them

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you questions.

Dr.Bashah:

you know, again, developmentally appropriate. My cousin decided to do this with her son,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

12 years

Dr.Bashah:

old and, has already

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

You

Dr.Bashah:

know, has understanding of, things that are happening so I think that's important. We, you know, we certainly don't want

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

raise

Dr.Bashah:

the children in,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

an

Dr.Bashah:

over sheltered bubble so that they can learn from these experiences, but the most important that they feel

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

feel

Dr.Bashah:

safe, they know

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

family is

Dr.Bashah:

safe,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

basically to say, you are safe, you're safe, in school, although something, is happening in the world. and. Not to bombard them with facts only if they're asking And last thing is , to summer it up with some kind of an optimistic statement.

Dr.Bashah:

Yeah, Yeah, you know, I was, seeking community

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

my

Dr.Bashah:

own grief and, uh, we, there were gatherings and, candlelighting for Shabbat and, it was very powerful for me to feel that strength.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

in community, but

Dr.Bashah:

also be able

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

grieve collectively

Dr.Bashah:

with community,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and

Dr.Bashah:

I think that's a wonderful

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

for

Dr.Bashah:

Children, to attend and to participate in

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

be a part

Dr.Bashah:

of, And I think, you know. There's a holocaust survivor who said we will never show them defeat or fear because we are not afraid, we are strong,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

and we

Dr.Bashah:

will always, overcome.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And it's just so

Dr.Bashah:

powerful to hear, survivors.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Speak from

Dr.Bashah:

that place of strength. And I think we must honor them. And there's, beautiful, powerful Jewish saying had the opportunity to hear many survivors speak over the weekend. People

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

were

Dr.Bashah:

in Israel

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

who had

Dr.Bashah:

witnessed, the, the attacks or, had witnessed stories retold of the attacks from survivors perspectives and. one common theme that really came out was, there were so many heroes. And

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

they

Dr.Bashah:

asked the heroes, like,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

did you

Dr.Bashah:

go into those pillaging fires and saving people and risking your life to go

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

save

Dr.Bashah:

another? and they said, well, if not me, then who? And I think that's just such a powerful, statement and it's embedded in the identity

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

of the

Dr.Bashah:

Jewish people. Like,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

if I'm

Dr.Bashah:

not going to save

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

who's going

Dr.Bashah:

to save me, you know, if not me, then

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

who's going

Dr.Bashah:

to be there for us. And, there is the sense of, family and solidarity and unity and, and collectiveness and that we come together, despite, you

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

well, because

Dr.Bashah:

of our collective trauma. that we are united as a result of it and stronger as a result of it. And I, think. You know, even if you're not Jewish, like these, like learning from that, coming together

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

rather

Dr.Bashah:

than grieving alone, seeking and building and fostering a

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

of

Dr.Bashah:

identity and cohesion and community, that helps you to be stronger in a pro social way, that,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that is so

Dr.Bashah:

incredibly important.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

it's again, choosing the good and choosing to move on in a positive way and not choosing to take that resentment or hateness into more violence. Mm-hmm..So I think that's the real heroes are. yeah. Do you have anything else you would like to share with us or, tips you want to give the parents as they raise their children and cope with. with Nowadays, challenges with these horrific, Tragedies that's going on. Yeah,

Dr.Bashah:

I think, you know, really maintaining the hope and Tammy, just as you and I are doing and even our own grief and suffering,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

we're finding

Dr.Bashah:

meaning and doing these podcasts. We're finding meaning and educating.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

the

Dr.Bashah:

public. We're finding meaning in being active, not passive. And, I really encourage others to do the same and finding what resonates with them and what they feel is going

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

be

Dr.Bashah:

meaningful and purposeful for them so that they don't feel so helpless.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

think

Dr.Bashah:

a common thing that I'm hearing across people is. Um, just not knowing what to do, feeling so helpless. And so I think going more into that active mobilizing role is going to help people,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

process,

Dr.Bashah:

through their grief and grow stronger.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

as

Dr.Bashah:

a result of what has happened, I do want to say we do have a podcast. It's the Optimistic American, and if you go there, we do

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

a

Dr.Bashah:

lot of different tips and strategies that we've pulled out of the book Addictive Ideologies and made separate podcasts on them, so there are a lot of tools that we like to equip people with, using psychological, principles,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

And

Dr.Bashah:

there's

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

that

Dr.Bashah:

we created as well for , parents, raising children.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you know

Dr.Bashah:

of somebody or loved one that's fallen, trapped to these addictive ideologies,

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

you can

Dr.Bashah:

do to help them. So there's a lot of, things and resources there that we like to give away.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

benefit people's

Dr.Bashah:

lives, and

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

we're happy

Dr.Bashah:

to help. So please reach out if

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

anything further

Dr.Bashah:

that we can do.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

This This is great. And I appreciate a lot the book that you wrote it's so powerful and really gives, I think, it's point that each person has the choice and you help people make let's say, the. positive over their life. So thank you so much for taking the time being with me today, sharing your own family experiences and from your psychological background, and so I was really honored to have you with me, thank you so much. Oh, the pleasure

Dr.Bashah:

and honor is all mine, Tammy. Thank you Thank you so

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

much. Last thing for our listeners, all the links to your podcast and website. it will be on the show notes. so go ahead and look into that.

Dr.Bashah:

Great. Thank you. Yeah. Our book can be bought on Amazon. It's online. Paul and I also dictate it. And, uh, you'll also hear my mother's voice on there as well. If you want to hear the audio book.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Oh, that's amazing. I didn't know that I've read the book. I didn't, I didn't look for the audio. So I'm going to think if I want to do a read here right now. Thank you so much, Tammy.

Dr.Bashah:

You're amazing.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

appreciate

Dr.Bashah:

you and all the work You're doing.

Tammy Afriat, CPC:

Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thank you.

People on this episode

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Tammy Afriat- Certified Parenting Coach CPC, CYPFC

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