Proven Leadership Strategies for Change Management, Growth & Resilience.

“Comfort isn’t always good, and hard times aren’t always bad. Growth often emerges from discomfort.” – Marcus Hamaker

In this long-form conversation, I sat down with Marcus Hamaker, a seasoned strategist, entrepreneur, and CEO of Boost USA. Marcus draws from his 30+ years of business leadership experience to share actionable insights on navigating change, fostering resilience, and driving growth in small to medium-sized businesses. The discussion explores emotional intelligence, the psychology of change, and practical tools for improving leadership and communication.

Key Takeaways:

1. The Psychology of Change Management:
   • Embrace Mindset Shifts: Change starts with perspective. Leaders should involve stakeholders early, invite input, and clearly communicate decisions.
   • Autonomy and Agency: Providing team members with a sense of control and involvement eases resistance to change.
   • Make Light of Heavy Things: Cultivating optimism during difficult times helps teams manage stress and stay focused.
2. Building Emotional Intelligence (EQ):
   • Self-Awareness: Leaders must understand how their emotions affect others and adapt their approach accordingly.
   • Empathy in Leadership: Balancing emotional empathy (connecting emotionally) with cognitive empathy (staying objective) enables leaders to navigate challenges effectively.
   • Practical Tools: Use assessments like DISC or StrengthsFinder to understand personal and team dynamics, fostering better communication and collaboration.
3. Resilience and Adaptability:
   • Learn from Failure: Break down mistakes into actionable lessons and implement systems to prevent repetition.
   • Systematic Improvements: Sustainable business growth depends on robust systems and processes, even in fast-paced environments.
   • Gratitude and Perspective: Reflecting on challenges with gratitude allows leaders to grow and maintain a forward-looking attitude.
4. Leadership in Turbulent Times:
   • Effective Communication: Articulate vision and mission clearly, create alignment, and encourage dialogue to address concerns.
   • Transparency and Trust: Build trust over time through credibility and openness, especially before major changes occur.
   • Objective Perspective: Leaders must step back from immediate problems to see the bigger picture, enabling better decision-making.

Bio:
Marcus has a proven track record in change management and developing business strategy. As a seasoned entrepreneur and consultant, he brings invaluable insights to every endeavor. Marcus loves business and believes that only second to a strong family, business owners and leaders have a tremendous opportunity to shape the world around them for good.

Contact:
Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61562559590465 
Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/thepursuitofvalue/ 
Linked

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Chapters

• 0:08 Introduction to Resilience
• 0:43 Change Management and Business Strategy
• 2:35 Meeting Marcus Haymaker
• 3:20 Understanding Change in Business
• 5:40 The Psychology of Change
• 9:51 Community Resilience During Storms
• 12:46 Personal Growth Through Adversity
• 18:42 Embracing Uncomfortable Challenges
• 21:02 The Role of Resilience in Leadership
• 23:40 [Ad] Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
• 24:28 (Cont.) The Role of Resilience in Leadership
• 29:34 Summary of Key Insights
• 31:22 Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
• 35:34 Developing Emotional Intelligence Skills
• 43:29 Learning from Failure
• 52:09 Final Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:08] Back to It's an Inside Job podcast. I'm your host, Jason Lim. Now, this podcast is dedicated to helping you to help yourself and others to become more mentally and emotionally resilient so you can be better at bouncing back from life's inevitable setbacks. Now, on It's an Inside Job, we decode the science and stories of resilience into practical advice, skills, and strategies that you can use to impact your life and those around you. Now, with that said, let's slip into the stream.

[0:36] Music.

[0:43] Well, welcome back to the show to another long-form discussion that I launch every Monday. Well, in today's episode, we'll be diving into change management, resilience, and business strategy with Marcus Haymaker. Now, he has over 30 years of business leadership experience. He is also a seasoned strategist, entrepreneur who excels in cultivating strong relationships, structuring organizations for growth, and delivering real value. Marcus brings a wealth of knowledge from his work with businesses both large and small.

[1:15] He is someone who has successfully led through change and developed transformative business strategies. Marcus believes that business owners and leaders, second only to strong families, have a unique opportunity to positively shape the world around them. So in this episode, you're going to gain three takeaways and others, of course. But the top one, well, that's understanding the psychology of change. You're going to learn how to guide your team through change by fostering autonomy and encouraging input while making clear, decisive choices. Secondly, building resilience in business and life. You're going to hear Marcus's personal professional experiences in managing adversity and discover how resilience and growth mindset can help you also navigate tough situations. And the third benefit, well, that's proactive leadership. You're going to explore the unique challenges small businesses, teams, medium businesses face during times of change and how you can lead proactively to remain competitive and adaptable. For me, this was a fascinating and engaging conversation, and I'm sure you will also find it the same. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Marcus.

[2:22] Music.

[2:35] Welcome everyone back to It's an Inside Job. Marcus, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. Could you, if I'd like to kick off, maybe you could just introduce yourself and briefly what you do. Yeah, my name is Marcus Hamaker. I'm the CEO of Boost USA. We are a project management and professional services consulting firm. We're based in Greenville, South Carolina. Our global headquarters is in Munich, Germany. many. And then I also have a podcast, the Pursuit of Value podcast that we just started, and it's for small businesses, targeted business owners. And we talk about mindset, culture, operations, and really digging into what makes a small business either thrive or die.

[3:20] And that's what I'd like to explore for you today. So pre-interview or pre-episode, we talked about change management, how important that is and how that is just becoming part of the ecosystem, how change is just constantly inundating us and that there's no kind of going back to where we were, per se. It's just a constant adaptation and an evolution, per se.

[3:45] Perhaps we could speak there. I mean, if we could speak to sort of the small or medium business owner, per se, what is change? I mean, how do you see change from your perspective working with this for, I think it's three decades? Yeah.

[4:02] To me, change management is really all about, it's just, it's a perspective, right? How are you viewing you and the environment that you're in? And then, you know, how does that affect you?

[4:14] So when I look at change from a business perspective, we just recently in Boost USA, we just moved into a brand new office. And our old office was pretty bad. It was old, old furniture, but we knew we were moving, so we didn't put a lot of money into it. We saw this coming. We started doing this process about a year ago. Well, we get to this brand new office and it's amazing. I mean, new furniture, new equipment, everything's beautiful. Well, through observation, you start hearing things, you start seeing things and people aren't, you would think that people would be super excited, but it's changed, right? It's not what it was. Though it's good from my perspective, it's not what it was. And so from a business leader perspective, you really have to understand that just because something is good to you and it might be good overall to the organization does not mean that people will perceive it as such. And we can get into the psychology of that and we can dig down into that. But I believe that inherently humans don't like change because it sets them out of their comfort zone and you know I've got kids I got three adult kids I got a nine-year-old and watching my kids grow up and seeing how they adapt to change my wife and then it just just a circle of influence that I'm in everybody.

[5:41] Adapts to it differently and very few people i think really lean into it and embrace it, and you know we were talking about covid earlier covid was such a dynamic shift in this world i mean it really was um i think for good on some levels i think for bad on other levels um i think what it taught us is that we can survive right we can overcome so many different levels but you know Back to your question, change is really just about mindset. That's my perspective.

[6:11] Yeah, when a leader wants to instill change, there is a sense of agency. It's something that they trigger. It's something that they want to move through. And I think a lot of what you said really resonates because human beings in general don't like change. But I think if it's changed based on a sense of we have agency or it's something that I want to move into, then I think change is much more attractive. But I think it's just like what you said. I'm sure everybody in the office wanted new facilities, new equipment and such, but maybe they didn't have as much agency as the leadership of that moving in. Again, that's just my perspective working with people that sometimes I see if you can give and instill a sense of agency or autonomy at least. I mean, what is your experience about that? Let's dive maybe into the psychology because I think – sorry, let me backtrack a little. So I think change is very important to understand, but I think change has to start with obviously the individual. It is at the psychological level. And if managers or leaders want to try to instill a more positive or constructive mindset towards that, I think it's trying to understand themselves first. So from your perspective of 30 years working with the psychology of change management, what do you think is where should we start this conversation?

[7:38] Well, I think you touched on it. I think autonomy and agency is huge. And so whenever there's a major change coming, you need to invite stakeholders in. You have to bring everything to the table and invite input. The issue that you run into when you're leading a company is that input's great, opinions are great, but at some point, a decision has to be made and there's no way on God's green earth you're going to please everybody, right? And so at some point, you invite it in, you take the information in, and then you got to make a decision. And it's at that point of you making the decision as a leader, that's when the change rolls out and ripples through the organization, even though many people gave input. And then what comes from that is, well, there's people that gave input that didn't get what they want, right? And so you've got to manage through that. But it changes. It is, is a funny thing. Um, I love it personally. I really enjoy change throughout my life. I've had a lot of change and I've learned to really embrace it. I don't like to be stagnant. I'm kind of a, I don't want to say a type a personality. Maybe I am, but I I'm driven. I like to, I like to get things done and I like new things. So from my perspective, it might be good for me on different avenues of change, but I really got to keep my fingers on the pulse of those around me and really gauge how they're adapting to it.

[9:06] And again, comfort is keen to humans, and I think we really like comfort. But I've always said that comfort isn't always good, and hard times isn't always bad. I think hard times produces good things in our lives, even though it's uncomfortable. So it's almost like there's this dichotomy between the two.

[9:26] Yeah, I think that's, well, a very salient point because hard times, you know, that U-rest, that positive stress.

[9:34] Whether it is, you know, us trying to learn something, whether it's us wanting to have better stamina, better endurance, better strength, better flexibility, it is through that positive stress, through putting ourselves through those

[9:47] hard times, per se, that we do grow more resilient, more robust. Bust you know just to keep sort of a time stamp on this conversation you guys in the carolinas just went through a major major storm and obviously with that comes up a lot of change uh both positive and negative you know when depending on how you see it i mean how have you seen people react around you when it comes to trying to adapt hopefully it's only in a temporary situations you know the trees get cleared electricity comes back on and such so what have you seen in in yourself marcus and those around you yeah that's a that's a great question um number one overall i want to just say that in situations like we just went through in the carolinas and and just my little neighborhood that i live in people all came together i mean there was you know there was no power but everybody had cellular service right so um our neighborhood has a Facebook page and people are looking out for each other and everybody's pitching in and saying, Hey, hang in there. What about this? What about that? So the community aspect of it was wonderful.

[11:00] Now, personally, I'll be completely honest with you.

[11:05] When you have power and you have all the indulgences of, you know, life and then it's all taken away, you know, we had water, which was great because we have gas, hot water heaters. So we had hot water. It had, you know, lost all the food in the refrigerator.

[11:20] We had food in, you know, the cabinets. And so we were fine. But talk about a major inconvenience. And then you go day one and then day two. and we're not big TV watchers, but still, you know, I'd like to, you know, have some sort of entertainment. Right. And then, you know, by day three, you kind of start finding yourself getting a little depressed and it's just super interesting. Like how these conveniences can really shape you. And then when they're just yanked away from you, like how does that manage? And I was talking to other people, friends, and that's what the, the, the main theme was, is people started getting frustrated. You know, it turned into this frustration. And then, you know, the day of power came on, I think it was Monday afternoon. I was upstairs. My wife was downstairs and the lights went on and I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm yelling and she's yelling downstairs and she runs out, starts talking to the neighbors. And so like, there was a celebration of light and it was just so, it was so interesting. And then I'm thinking, it's like, man, I'm so fragile. Like I was so irritated and frustrated because I didn't have all my, my routines. I couldn't do what I normally do. Um, couldn't go to the office when I wanted to, couldn't work out when I wanted to. And it was just so interesting. It was, it was very humbling, honestly.

[12:41] I think that's a very, very salient point you said, because it's unexpected. It shows up on your doorstep. And as you said, you know, all the amenities we become used to get taken off the grid, literally in this sense when it comes to electricity and such yeah but so i mean what did you learn about yourself i mean and how do you think with such a recent event how can that apply to sort of self-leadership when it comes to in the corporate or the organizational sphere when we are unexpected change does hit us from from just that perspective of the storm that hit the carolinas and what you guys learned about yourself as a community, as a family. Yeah, you know, I walked away from it just... Re-emphasizing to myself that, you know what, things are okay. Like I have, I have not a complaint in the world. I'm a blessed man. I'm thankful. When I look at what happened in an hour north in Asheville, I mean, they got decimated. I mean, people lost homes. I mean, a town got wiped out.

[13:45] There's all sorts of rescue missions going on up there with the National Guard and some churches and stuff like that. But, you know, a couple of different things. Number one, you kind of realize that, okay, I'm kind of a punk, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't, I might talk a good game sometimes, but it really happens to you. I get agitated and that tension rises up. So you got to realize that you got to lean into the fact that, that, um, you're more fragile than what you realize.

[14:15] And then, um, when everything's all said and done, I think it's important to look back and this is what we've been doing this week is, um, you know, how, how could I have managed that better? How could I have, you know, walked through this trial? Um, and again, it was a small trial looking back. It was not that big of a deal. It was a much bigger deal for a lot of other people and really just adjusting your perspective, your perspective on you and life. Um, you know, I am not the center of this universe. I mean, I think that that's every, every human needs to realize that each and every day that, um, there's so much out there to be thankful for. And there's, There's so much blessing, especially in the U.S. And you just, you got to process it. You got to really be introspective and think through it and keep it front of mind. I don't want to forget about this. And what's ironic is that I've been on this personal mission lately of, I want to lean into the uncomfortable things. I want to embrace hard things, just personally. I've been a guy that's worked out my whole life. I love working out. I enjoy the tension, the stress of a good workout, but.

[15:29] I don't translate that well to other things. And that was really intriguing to me. Like, why can't I look forward to uncomfortable things and other avenues of life? But when it comes to working out, I look forward to that. You know, I like getting the heart rate up. I like sweating. I like that feeling.

[15:46] So why can't I translate that into other hard things in life? And so I've really been trying to figure that out and lean into hard things. And so then this thing happened. And, and of course I don't, I didn't think I managed it very well, but you know, it's, it's, it's definitely a process. But I guess the workout is something that, you know, that's change you want. It's change that's expected. It's change that you're willing to walk through and a storm to this degree, whether it's once a decade or once a century, whatever you want to call it. I mean, that it's such a huge unexpected change. So I can understand that. But I think you talked about the agitation. I think anyone would feel the frustration, the irritation, the agitation. And I guess the question is, you can't stop those emotions, but the question is, what do you want to do with those emotions?

[16:36] And I think the second thing that you brought up, which is quite astute, is where you start being introspective, asking, what can I learn from this? How can I grow? How can I handle this better next time? because that experience obviously becomes you can draw from that archive to create a better marcus for the next time hopefully another not another storm of that scale hits you guys but irregardless theoretically how can i be a better person from that and i i want to come and also obviously gratitude you're speaking to right being thankful for the things around us right and uh i i had someone else on the guest um and she talked about sort of this energy choice.

[17:18] Where a lot of us say would, should, I would, I have to, I must, right? And then she talked about the next levels, like, I should do that. And that's kind of, she said, that's kind of laden with guilt or laden with bad conscience if you don't. Then she says, you know what the next choice is, Jason? It's I could. That's when you take the shame or the guilt away and you talk about possibilities and opportunities. And then the next one, what you just said is like, how can I i learn from this or what do i want to do next time that's the next one i want to do something it's driven by passion but the other one you were talking about after going through the storm was the level of gratitude and she said i become very conscious to use i get to because i get to, walk down the street i get to go back into my home or whatever it is because she says it's showing gratitude but it's also places you in the here and now you appreciate the things you have you're not always hunting for all the things you don't have so i just wanted to kind of link that i thought that was very interesting what you said my question is to your last point you said you like getting your heart rate up you like getting a good sweat on and challenging your body but then i said how can i translate this into other um not hardships but other hard factors in your life so you can grow.

[18:42] Have you heard back from yourself? Have you heard some sort of answer to that question?

[18:50] Yes. And no. Um, so I, I'll go to the passion side of it. Right. So I'm, I'm passionate about working out. I don't, I don't know where this came from. I, you know, I played sports as a kid, always. I just enjoyed it. And for me, my personality style, it's, it's an outlet, right? So if, if, if I'm having a bad day, I can go ride the bike for an hour and feel great when I'm done. Um, so there's a, there's a passion there, but when I approach, um, hard business times, um, contracts get taken away or contracts are slow to come in, or we have HR issues or the economy election year in the U S um, you know, that's a discomfort that I'm not choosing, right. I'm not passionate about that. I'm not choosing, like you talk about agency. I'm not choosing that as something that's happening to me. So for me, it's, again, it's about perspective. How can I handle that situation with the same fervor and passion that I do to work out, right? Do I have the answer? I don't. But what I'm trying and what I'm leaning into is that when they start coming at me to start that mental process differently, and it's the, you know what, I will get through this. I get to learn through this situation.

[20:13] I get to become more knowledgeable about this aspect of business. And so it's really approaching it, like you mentioned, with some gratitude. But also, don't make it to where it's happening to me. Walk with it, right? So really walk alongside it and say, okay, I'm walking down this path right now that's not very comfortable. Well, it might be dark and, you know, the streets uneven, whatever. But you know what? At least I get to walk down it. Right. So it's that perspective change. That's what I'm trying to do.

[20:47] And so when small business or entrepreneurs or small leaders from small companies or medium companies, they're saying, you know, it's so turbulent, it's so tumultuous out there right

[21:00] now, and we don't know how to handle it. I mean, what is the role of resilience or what is resilience as you see it being a consultant, being an advisor to multiple clients at different levels? From your perspective what is some of the advice you would share with them about perspective i guess as part of the landscape yeah when i think about resilience to me that's essentially saying, i'm gonna be okay walking through this and i'm gonna be okay at the other end so this this is not a dire situation so you just don't give up right so if somebody who's resilient what does that mean they don't give up they're able to look at today and and understand i'm okay they're able to look at tomorrow and say you know what i'm going to be okay tomorrow too so i can walk through this so when when we're working with companies it's it's we have to approach it as number one we need to be light we need to be optimistic we need to be light we need to, you know, make light of heavy things. And that always helps because that sets a tone and a culture of, you know what, everything's going to be okay.

[22:15] I remember back with COVID when that hit that I was president of a company and we were traveling all over the United States and travel stopped. I mean, it just took a screeching halt. So our whole way of being was completely changed. And I was asking myself, you know, what do I do here? Like what, there's no precedent for this. Like I want to be safe, but I don't want to swing to the other side of the pendulum and lock everything down because that's going to just put fear and panic into people. So we took a very middle of the road approach. We allowed people to work from home that wanted to work from home. We set the office up in a way that was safe. We allowed people to come in if, you know, we tested people in certain occasions. And so we made light of a very dark situation at that time. And looking back, that worked well for us. And I think as we work with companies, that's the best approach is that, yes, things might be challenging and hard and even maybe traumatic. But you know what? We don't need to add to that emotion. We need to keep it level and we need to keep it even. and we need to have a steady hand. And as a consultant, that's our job often is to be the steady hand, to be the voice of reason and to help people pull up and out of the situation so they can see it from 10,000 feet and then assess and then make better decisions.

[23:40] I think that's what you said, that optimism. It's not just...

[23:46] Positive affirmations and such but just what you're saying is making light of heavy things that might be from my perspective maybe that's focusing on the things we can control what are actually the facts of the situation right it's not to just constantly focus just on the final outcome because that is going to stress anyone out because i don't think any of us have we can map all the variables and all the unknown variables i can that can deviate our course even slightly or profoundly off course right and i think it is and what i what it sounds like you're saying is also just a focus on the actions what is the the effort we can invest now because that gives people a sense of control and a sense of certainty and a sense of autonomy as we talked at the top of this conversation at least that's what i understand i hear from you marcus and i think also what you're talking about is having a steady hand and holding the course and that objective perspective is so important because maybe the situation itself is so large that we can't change it but what we can do as you said is maybe too subjective or problem oriented but pull out to see the objective perspective and i think that's why it's so important to have professionals such as you where you know you sit outside of the organization and it's always easier for us to see more objective perspective and it's to help those people uh to help them to pull them out of the pit per se so they can get more of that perspective.

[25:14] I mean, is this close to what I'm interpreting to some extent what you're saying? Please tell me if it's a loss of translation somewhere. No, it is. Because when I think of consultants in general, and I've done this so many times where I go into a company. So let me back up.

[25:34] A business will come to me and say, hey, I want to grow. Or, hey, I want to do this. Okay, I come in, I assess, and then I put a plan together to accomplish their objective. And 99.9% of the time, what is happening inside the company and what I see are two very different things. And so what the owner operator, what his perspective is and what his little is going on in his environment is very different than what I see. And it's really interesting. And I'll give you an example.

[26:09] One gentleman said, hey, I want to grow my company and I want to do this, this, and this. And I go, great, we can put a plan together for that. But in order to do that, there has to be some fundamental changes that happen. And it has to start with you, the owner. And yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it. And so we build the plan. We put everything in place, spend a lot of time. And ultimately, what it came down to is that he was a micromanager. And there was no way he was not going to micromanage. And so looking at that situation, I.

[26:43] I saw it. I assumed that he knew it. And I assumed that he was willing to change it. But what ended up happening is that when it came time to execute, the discomfort of him not micromanaging outweighed the opportunity to grow his business. He wanted to stay in control mentally. He needed to be in control. And so he was not willing to put in place anything to help grow his company. And so, and you know, just from a business perspective, if you've got to control everything, you can only scale so far, right? I mean, that's just impossible. You can't go beyond you. Right. So that was the case. And, and, and so in the end, which this was a beautiful thing, he's like, you know what, maybe I don't want to grow. And I'm like, sweet. Amen, brother. At least now, you know, right now, you know, that, that your little world that you live in, you want to fill in control and and you want to pull all the the strings that's your sweet spot so live with it understand it and get this get this thing out of your brain that you want to grow big because it's not going to happen right yeah and so through the conversations with you he became more cognizant of actually what his values were and what makes him feel comfortable his you know comfort zone if we can use that overused. Right.

[28:04] Yeah. But up to that point, he was getting very frustrated because everything he tried to do to grow failed. So, so think about this. He was hitting his head against the wall, against the wall. I can't grow. I can't grow. Why can't I grow? Pull in a consultant. Oh, okay. Well, let's do this. We'll do A, B, C, and D. We'll restructure, do all this, get it all in place, give him the vision for growth. And then, then he realizes, oh, okay. okay, I don't want to grow because then I lose control. So that's why I wasn't growing previously. So it was freedom. I mean, ultimately it gave him some freedom, freedom of mind. But yeah, super interesting. And we see that a lot.

[28:42] Music.

[28:47] In part one, Marcus shared his thoughts on managing change, building resilience, and personal growth. He talked about how understanding the psychology of change, well, how it can help leaders guide people through it more smoothly.

[28:59] He explained while people often resist change, it's easier when leaders encourage input, foster autonomy, and make clear decisions. He also touched on the specific challenges small businesses face, using his company's recent office move as an example. For example, he pointed out that small businesses need to stay proactive when dealing with change to remain competitive and resilient. On a personal level, Marcus reflected on his experience during a major storm in the Carolinas, which disrupted daily life and made him realize how much we really rely on everyday conveniences. He talked about the importance of staying positive during tough times and how physical exercise helps him manage stress and perspective. For Marcus, facing challenges head on is a way to learn and grow both in his personal life and work. And as Marcus said, any adversity, any challenge we meet as a team or as individuals, well, it's about perspective. But it's about trying to control the narrative of that perspective. And as he said, make light of heavy things. And to be able to do this requires introspection. It's about asking questions after the fact to try to harvest the lessons learned to show gratitude in things we have and the things that we've learned. And when we face similar adversities or challenges in the future, when we face it with more tenacity, fortitude and resilience.

[30:20] So now let's slip back into the stream with part two with my conversation with you.

[30:24] Music.

[30:36] And he or she is not the owner per se, but they have to pull the line of management as they move into some sort of change or evolution in the company. So how important is it for a leader to develop his or her psychosocial emotional intelligence when it comes to helping lead people through change? Yeah, personal opinion, I think it's everything. I think a person's EQ, and this is proven, and I don't know the statistics, but it's proven that a higher level of EQ, those people go farther in their career. They just attain more. And when you think about it, it makes sense. So as a department head, as a division leader, your emotional intelligence will set the tone of the culture in the company, right? It just will. I say this all the time and I've seen it time and time again, but the leader, his or her personality will set the identity and the tone of that company. And oftentimes what you see in businesses is that the company culture will reflect that of the leader. It happens quite often. And if that leader doesn't understand that, then there's going to be some fundamental issues in the culture of the company.

[31:52] So EQ really is everything. You have to understand you. So I, as the leader of my company that I run, I need to understand how I think, how I feel, how I interpret, how I process. And then I also need to be adept enough to see others and read the room and know how I will affect them. And then also be aware of my emotions, how they affect me. And that's no easy task. That's not just something that people pick up on. I believe that there's people that have naturally high EQ, but I also believe that it's something that you can learn. And I've seen that time and time again. And so that's super important.

[32:34] And again, that's the want to change, the want to move, say, from more of a transactional type of interactions with people to more of this sort of EQ type. So if if a leader someone has just uh become a leader you know they've got promoted based on their experience and their competence but now all of a sudden they find themselves leading a number of people and they're thinking okay uh i've been a kind of a nuts and bolts guy or gal for a long time but now i need to kind of open it up and for me these kind of skills emotional emotional Emotional intelligence skills when it comes to communication, collaboration, I don't think they're soft skills. I always think they are hard skills, the hardest skills sometimes to learn. In your experience, Marcus, what are the fundamentals if these individuals really want to, but they know they are quite transactional in the way they behave and communicate? What are some of the fundamentals they should focus on?

[33:34] Well, I'm a big advocate of DISC personality assessments. Are you familiar with them? Yeah. It's, I think that that's a very basic, but also a very good personality assessment where you assess yourself and you assess your team. You know, knowledge is power, right? So if an individual that comes into a leadership role, and we have some here, and we do DISC personality assessment, and we also do strength finders.

[34:04] And equipping them with knowledge about themselves, right? So I think that that's fundamental. Now, there's a ceiling to that because if an individual is not willing to be teachable or willing to learn, I mean, that's going to be pretty apparent quickly. And they're probably not going to be a leader's material or management material, but it is something that happens. And so equipping them to understand how they're wired and how they process information, and then how to identify others. And that's, to me, the best place to start because that builds a solid foundation for leadership. And leadership is really influence. Like, am I able to influence those around me?

[34:44] Am I able to point to the horizon and say, hey, this is where we're going. This is how we're going to get there. Let's go. And we're going to go together. We're going to use your skill set and your skill set and your skill set, all different, all good. Let's work well together. And I think that's very fundamental when you step into a leadership management role is just having a basic understanding of you and others.

[35:07] I think that's very important because I think, you know, empathy gets bantered around a lot. I think empathy is very important. From my perspective, I think there's a difference between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. And I think what I've seen when I've worked with professionals, highly skilled, intelligent men and women, but hit the wall or get burned out is because they have never made the distinction between the two. Where they're constantly they they almost care too much because they're trying to always relate to the emotions of others and emotions are very infectious you know you know you walk into a room and you see two people who are kind of morose and quiet you're not going to start laughing right you're going to use that that empathy but for me from again this is anecdotal from my experience i think cognitive empathy is something that should be part of the skill set when we talk about emotional intelligence because what i mean by cognitive empathy for those who don't know i mean you're still present but you're wary not to feel what they're feeling you want to hear their their perspectives their insights their what they're struggling with and to listen and to validate them but not get lost in that subjective storm because i always think as a leader as a coach or a sparring partner or whatever or a consultant such as yourself mark because i think it's so important to contain that objective perspective so you can help them pull out of that subjective storm. What's your take on that?

[36:34] Yeah, I agree. I mean, as you were talking, I was thinking about a story that, so a long time ago, I was an executive director of a boarding school. And one of the things that we taught was DISC personality assessments. And we were moving to school and doing a bunch of stuff. And so I had, you know, it's all, you know, high school. And so I had a bunch of boys around me. And, you know, I'm a, what, you know, on the DISC scale, I'm a D. I'm very driven. Let's get things done, right? Right. And so I pulled the boys around me and I just laid it out. I said, we're going to do this, this, this, and this, and we're going to get this done, this done, this done. And I saw all these kids that were all excited, like, yeah, yeah. Just kind of go, their faces just kind of went down. And there was one boy who's a very high eye, which is very outgoing, loves to be the center of attention. Just, you know, just loves everybody. I finished my little speech and he looked at me just dead serious. And he said, you just destroyed my whole day.

[37:34] And so, you know, in that moment, it just made me think like, okay, I'm this and I needed to get stuff done. But I was talking to somebody that I should have approached this very differently. I should have made this a fun experience for him to get influence, to influence him in the right way and not crush his spirit, which I did because I was laying out tasks and timeline and pressure. And he was just wanting to have fun. So i i think that when you approach others you have to be aware that how you think and what you want to accomplish isn't going to always translate into them receiving it in a way that's going to be the same as you right and so you do have to approach it like you said very very interesting yeah i'm just wondering because i think that this profile is is it's it's very detailed and it's It's based on hundreds and thousands of personalities.

[38:28] But let's say a manager, he or she hasn't had time to take them through a disc and the change is coming at the end of the month and I need to communicate. And he or she is just being promoted to this new department or they started a new company or what have you. So she doesn't or he doesn't really know all the personalities around them. All that they know is that these people are competent. They love the company, what have you. Thank you. I understand if you have the disc, then you can have a much more bespoke approach when you create a communication. But is there, from your experience, is there a sort of a recommendation or suggestion or advice you'd give to our listeners today for someone who can take a more sort of general approach when it comes to communicating and leading through some level of change?

[39:16] Yeah. In a situation like that, you would have to just get buy-in, right? You have to cast a vision. What's coming? Why are we doing it? So cast a vision. You definitely have to explain the mission to make the change. And then get buy-in from all the stakeholders, all the people involved. And at that point, when you're getting buy-in, get input, have conversations. In a situation like that, communication, really good communication. Communication and i'll just say a lot of words you know because they may not always be you know, real pragmatic but you know really good communication can go a long way to gain that influence to accomplish the goal so what is again just to challenge you what does good communication look like if we just had to sort of get a little nuts and bolts is it to have You know, a number of sort of talks where people are constantly asking, or not constantly, where people are allowed to ask questions or field ideas and such. Is it obviously, again, you said to articulate the vision and mission as detailed as possible and such, but are there other aspects that create a good communication platform?

[40:32] Yeah, I think it's what you said, but it's also just understanding that pragmatically in the moment as you're explaining the vision or the mission, then waiting for the response. Do you understand? What questions do you have? Does this make sense?

[40:52] It's very important to get feedback on what you're saying so everybody can be on the same page. And that's really just alignment.

[41:00] Are you aligning with the stakeholders on the task at hand, on the mission, on the vision of whatever change is happening? And it's, you know, that could be breakout sessions. That could be, you know, we have a huddle in the morning, we have a meeting at two, and then, you know, we have individual one-on-ones, whatever. Whatever but it's really just establishing that alignment of what's going on why are we doing it you know what are the deadlines and really having an open conversation about that so to me that's good effective communication yeah i mean that's very nuts and bolts that's really good to hear because i think for a lot of people managers and such it's it's it's not just that i think that is significant as you're you know as you're migrating into some sort of change but i think what's also And so just as important is the, and you spoke to this earlier, but it's the ability to have built trust and transparency way before then to use, as you said, the EQ, the psychosocial emotional intelligence, and to have built up a track record where people can trust and that they see what you're doing is transparent, that there's not some sort of nefarious purpose behind this. Right. And it's all that lead up to that because any manager can employ everything we're saying, but unless there is a track record of reputation and credibility.

[42:27] I think it all is for naught when it comes to that. That's from my personal experience. I agree with that 100%. Transparency, being genuine, to me that's a non-negotiable. It really is.

[42:43] When it comes to how when it comes to small businesses and medium businesses dealing with risks and failures i know we a lot of people talk about this ad nauseum but from your experience how can we learn from failure how can we learn from mistakes and mess ups as as a team as individuals.

[43:06] Well, this might sound a little goofy, but I think primarily you have to learn, right? I mean, you have to actually, you know, mistakes happen all the time, but there has to be a moment where you stop and he's like, okay, this happened, it went bad, why? And really, really think it through. And then the next phase of that, and I see this a lot in small businesses, they don't Don't put a system or process in place to change what just happened. So when I think about small businesses, and the statistics are pretty daunting, that 30% fail within two years, 50% in five years, 70% in 10 years, there's a reason so many small businesses fail. But in the US, there's 3 to 5 million every year. There's over 400 small businesses worldwide. So it's big numbers, right? But the failure rates are way too high. And a lot of it has to do with there's not an infrastructure of process in place for the day-to-day.

[44:11] Operations of a business and so when i think of a mistake and let's you know let's use an example with a small business i'll use a construction construction example because that's the that's what i grew up in um let's say you you make a mistake um you're pouring some sidewalk for for example, a concrete sidewalk, and you left out a pipe, a drainage pipe underneath. And so you got to go back, rip out a section of the sidewalk to put the drainage pipe in so water can flow underneath the sidewalk. Pretty basic, right? But guess what? That was a big mistake. You got to rip out concrete. That's not easy to do. Well, what system was in place for the people on the job to make sure that that pipe was there in the first place, right? So create a a system, a process, a checkoff sheet where that won't happen. So every job that you go to the poor sidewalk, it's just like a pre-flight checklist, right? You've got to check, check, check, make sure everything's right and correct. Because what happens is people assume through hubris that I've been doing this for 20 years. I've got it covered. Well, guess what, buddy? You're a human.

[45:19] And you might have 20 years experience, but it doesn't mean you're above mistakes. And so So systems and processes are put in place for excellence. They really are. And a lot of small companies don't understand that because they don't want to slow down, take the time to set up a system or a process. And you can only grow to the level of your systems and processes. And as a consultant, I see that every single day. And that's not only from a small business, a company that's making less than a million dollars. It's to a company that's making $4 billion. We see that.

[45:55] As we talked about, it's just scale, right? It's just a similar problem, but just on a bigger playing field. Because I think that's such a salient point you made, Mark, is because working in the corporations I do work in, they're fast moving. They've got projects coming in all the time, but they'll finish a project and the next one's already on their desk, per se. Yep. they have not in not ever but very seldom do they invest the time to to take that case and make it a you know a case that they can learn from sort of pick it apart as you said the learning because it's it's so fast and and usually the excuse you hear is just look we just don't have time for this we've got something and a lot of times that is a hundred percent true but the question is how do you make the time to to to decompress and to take it apart to understand and as you said that improves systems that improves processes that improves checklists and such so how do you encourage you know if you hear that as as the sort of standard excuse regardless the size of business.

[47:04] How do you make that salient to them how do you how what do you help them to do if they've got so much coming down the pipeline to make that space. Is there any tips you can give for our listeners out there? It's really hard. I mean, this to me goes into, you have to define value. So, you know, for any business owner, any business leader, what's truly most valuable to you? One of the things that we do here is we have what's called lessons learned, right? So every project, everything that we work on, we really try to make that a case study internally. Like, what are the lessons learned from this? I mean, because, you know, we're experts at project management. We're experts at setting up systems and processes, process development. So we have to be really good at that. And so once we do that, then we also want to be able to train the people that we're providing it to so they can make it sustainable.

[48:00] And so we never approach it as a band-aid, right? That's a bad word. We want to develop a system for somebody that they can then step into that system and then execute it day in, day out. But to your point... If the leader isn't willing to stop and slow down, I don't know that there's much you can do. I can tell people until they're blown in the face, man, give me 30 minutes. We can help you. Just give me 30 minutes. Well, I don't have time. I don't know where to start. Okay, I get it. So if I could speak frankly to that person, I wouldn't pull them aside and say, listen, I understand. but what's most valuable to you right now is that you've got this problem that is reoccurring every single month. You know, it's a problem. You want to address the problem, but you're refusing to look at it because you don't have time. So what is valuable to you? Is it the fact that you're busy and that you're doing all this stuff because you're not being productive? Because if you're being productive, you'd fix the problem.

[49:03] And, and so it's really about helping them see that what they're working on or ignoring is a value statement, right? We all talk about core values and being value-driven and executing value and revenue and all that. But oftentimes in small business, I ask like, what is the most important thing for you today? And here would be an example.

[49:28] We have a lot of turnover with employees. Let's say that's an issue. Okay. Do you have an onboarding process for your employees? Well, yes, no. Well, walk me through what happens when an employee is hired. Well, they fill out an application, then they sit with so-and-so, then they sit with so-and-so. And I'm like, that's not an onboarding process. That's just somebody sitting with somebody, right? And so the most important thing for that company that struggles with keeping employees would be to slow down and develop a really good, robust best onboarding process for the employee from the time that they fill out the application to day 90. Like, what does that roadmap look like for that employee in that onboard process? Because that is the first impression that employee is getting of that company. It's painting them a picture of their future in that company. But oftentimes, the people won't slow down to create that process because they don't have time. Well, you're going to turn through employees all the time then because you're just putting them through a system that is going to fail.

[50:34] So does that make sense? Yeah, that makes complete sense because what I hear is that we implement a system or a process because it adds value. It has to justify an existence. And that would look at the flip side of the coin, Marcus, where a company says, you know what, we already have so many systems and processes. Yeah, but a lot of them may be redundant or maybe you have to look at them. And that may be part of the case studies, looking at existing systems and processes and say, I think because everything has to justify some level of existence. Why do we have it here? What's the value? And just to flip it on the other side, and I think it's exactly what you're saying. The reason you're coming in saying, what's your onboarding system?

[51:17] Because that system is valued. It adds a value. It has a justification why it's there. But if the old system doesn't work well then trash it get rid of it or at least adapt and evolve it that's what i hear yeah that's a great point and a lot of times we do hear that oh we've got a system we do this we do that but why do you do it that way well it's what we've always done yeah so there's no real answer to why it's in place and why it's used halfway and not well and and yeah exactly it's like we have a christmas party well we that's the way that's okay that's it's just tradition and you have a christmas party because you're celebrating something right but the onboarding system is not a traditional way of doing things if it's not working i can completely concur yeah yeah marcus we're coming close to the top of the hour and i really appreciate the time we've spent today is there anything that you'd like to share or anything that we haven't addressed that you think would add value to this conversation for our listeners.

[52:18] I would say, you know, to challenge your listeners to, to, Number one, challenge themselves to be teachable, really be introspective on looking at mistakes as opportunities for knowledge and wisdom. For any of the young entrepreneurs out there, find somebody that has gray hair, that's been there, done that, and that has some experience. I think that that's super important. One of the things that I've always done is I've always tried to find people that have gone before me and learn as much as I can from them. I think that's super important. And then, you know, lastly, just really understanding what is valuable to you as a business owner and to a leader.

[53:02] I think really spending some time and breaking that down and coming up with a definition for you as that person. Like, what is valuable to you? Like, is it comfort? Is it progress? Is it process?

[53:16] Is it just, you know, fun? What is it? Because oftentimes what you see is the there's a tension there between what you want to accomplish and what you truly are doing there there's a tension in there and that usually that tension is when you look in the mirror to you well so well yeah so if someone wanted to reach out to they could go to boost usas at dot com yeah it's bu-st.com boost um yeah dash st.com dot com and you also mentioned your pov podcast um correct yeah and if people want to hear more from your experience and draw from your learnings and your knowledge what is the pov stand for again in it's a pursuit of value so it's the pursuit of value podcast and it's the povpodcast.com yeah and how often do you launch that is that we just started and we did season one we've got 11 11 podcasts up we're going to start recording season two in november and season one was often was a lot about what we talked about it was the owner mindset as a business owner mindset so So talking about defining value, the pursuit of value every day, the difference between a lifestyle business and a growth business that's really dependent on the owner's perspective.

[54:42] So it's been fun. It's been a good time. Well, it sounds like a great source for people to pick up more information if they're curious about anything that we've talked about today. I'll be sure to leave all those links in the podcast show notes. Well, Marcus, thank you very much for your time today. I found it a very stimulating and exhilarating conversation because it confirms a lot of the things that I see to hear someone on the other side of the pond saying, yeah, I've seen the last things over the last 30 years, too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate your time and it was fun. So thank you.

[55:15] Music.

[55:21] Fascinating conversation with Marcus. You know, he provided valuable insights into the importance of emotional intelligence and effective leadership, particularly in times of business growth and change management. He emphasized the critical role of self-awareness for leaders using emotional intelligence to manage their own emotions and to understand how those emotions impact others. He also highlighted the value of personality assessments such as DISC and other strength and helping leaders to understand both themselves and their teams better. This, in turn, well, this allows leaders to adapt their communication styles to suit different personalities. On the subject of change management, Marcus talked about the necessity of clear communication and transparency. He emphasized that leaders must articulate their vision and mission clearly, ensuring that everyone, the stakeholders, the team, whatever, are aligned and have bought into the process. He highlighted the importance of building trust through credibility, learning from mistakes, and while continuously improving systems and processes. Ultimately, Marcus's insights reinforce the idea that strong leadership is rooted in emotional intelligence and effective communication. And they're both essential for migrating into change and to driving business growth. Marcus, a personal thank you from me to you for spending some time with me today and sharing your thoughts and sharing your advice and your suggestions and your deep knowledge and experience over 30 years. Thank you.

[56:48] And folks, remember that Marcus himself has a podcast, POV Podcast, Pursuit of Value Podcast. You'll find that link in the show notes as well as his contact information. Well, folks, that brings us to a tail end of another episode. I really Really appreciate you showing up and allowing me to be part of your week. If you found this episode to be of interest and you think you know someone who would benefit from it, please share it. It goes a long way to help me spread the word of this podcast. And it's only a few days till we connect, reconnect again on Friday for Bite Size Fridays. Well, folks, till then, keep well, keep strong.

[57:27] Music.