Inside Innovation: Psychological Safety, Strategic Timing, and the Power of Simplicity with Jannicke Birkevold

"Technology isn't the hard part. Getting people to see the value and change behaviour—that’s the challenge." - Jannicke Birkevold

In this episode, innovation expert Jannicke Birkevold unpacks how emerging technologies like AI, quantum computing, and digital ID systems are reshaping society and business. Learn what makes innovation succeed in the real world—and why psychological safety and timing are non-negotiables for impact.

Is your organisation built to survive disruption—or drive it?

Key Takeaway Insights and Tools (with Timestamps):

• Innovation Requires Psychological Safety
  Innovation flourishes when people feel safe to fail, question, and iterate. Leadership support is essential to create this space.
  [33:26]
• Disruption Is About Timing, Not Just Tech
  The success of VIPS (Norway's mobile payment system) hinged on simplicity, customer value, and market timing—not just the app itself.
  [19:15]
• Don’t Build Everything—Partner Strategically
  The IDme project succeeded by collaborating with specialized partners for fraud detection and passport verification.
  [30:44]
• Innovators Need Organizational Champions
  Without buy-in from top leadership, most innovation efforts stagnate. Managers must advocate for long-term thinking—even in quarterly-driven cultures.
  [35:51]
• Internal Conflict Can Kill Innovation
  New solutions may threaten existing revenue streams. Reframing innovation as a protective move—before competitors disrupt—helps reduce resistance.
  [39:39]

Bio:

Jannicke Birkevold is an experienced leader and Innovation Expert with over 20 years of experience working at the intersection of technology, business, and customers. She has a passion for new tech. Jannicke has a proven track record in project management and the delivery of new products to market. She was recognised among Norway's Top 50 Women in Tech by Abelia/ODA.

Throughout her career, Jannicke has held several managerial and professional positions within DNB, including head of digital inovation and leading the internal StartUp IDmee. Before joining DNB, she worked on IT and innovation projects in the Norwegian Tax Administration and has experience from the media industy and voluntary organizations. Her extensive experience spans strategy, technology, compliance, and customer-focused initiatives.

Jannicke has broad leadership experience, having led specialists and professionals in technology and product field. She also enjoys delving deeply into subject areas in roles that involve professional responsibility and subject matter expert.
Her commercial mindset is focused on creating value for both customers and the company. Jannicke's personal qualities include a direct style, easy-going nature, a sense of humour, and lots of enthusiasm.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/j

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Chapters

• 0:16 Introduction to the Podcast
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• 13:58 (Cont.) Practical Tips for Everyday Challenges

Transcript

0:04

This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Well this week on it's an inside job we are returning to that very important topic innovation because innovation it's the lifeblood of organizations of companies facing any of today's complex challenges that could be ai machine learning to climate change and quantum computing this pace of disruption is just accelerating and the question is how do we ensure these technologies serve us rather than overwhelm us? And that's what I explore in this conversation with my guest, Janneke Birkevold. Now, Janneke has clocked over two decades of experience under her belt as an experienced leader and innovation expert. She's worked in the intersection of technology, business, and customer relations. She's led major digital initiatives at DNB, and that's Denoschke Bank. That's the first national bank of Norway, where she headed innovation projects like ID.me and contributing to the success of another technology called VIPS, which is Norway's mobile payment solution. She's also been recognized as one of Norway's top 50 women in tech. She brings both deep subject matter expertise and a proven track record of turning ideas into solutions that create real value. So in this episode, we're going to be looking at how emerging technologies are reshaping business, society, and even global power dynamics. And so in this episode, you'll discover why organizational support and psychological safety are non-negotiable for meaningful innovation. What leaders can learn from real-world case studies like Norway's VIPs mobile payment system and digital ID solutions, and also how to balance technological opportunity with human adaptability. So innovation creates real value rather than just the hype. And towards the end of our conversation, we will highlight the single most important mindset shift leaders and organizations must embrace if they want to remain relevant in a world defined by disruption, growing disruption. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Yannicka Biedekul. Janneke, welcome to the show. Thank you. Could we kick off, as I do with most of my guests, by introducing who you are and what you specialize in? Yeah, my name is Janneke. I have been working with development since I started working. So I'm working in the crossroad between technology and customers and innovation and project management kind of. So I've been working in all different areas when it comes to develop new products, new technology, new organizations and that kind of stuff. So I have quite a wide experience and I also like to work on different levels. So I really like to work when it comes to deep time into new stuff, working as subject matter experts and really learn things. But I also like to work as a manager and as a leader, I'll be part of working more strategy wise. So I'm kind of going up and down, deep dive into things and then go up in the helicopter and try to have a broader view of what's happening in the organization and also in society around us. Now, I think this is a very important conversation, especially as we slide further into 2025, considering the innovation. We are on the edge of a lot of surprising developments when it comes to, I think this is no surprise to anyone, unless they've been living under the rock with artificial intelligence, AI, with machine learning, with quantum computing, with augmented reality and virtual reality, and all the other acronyms we can throw in this conversation. Because I think it's important to understand that with all these innovative new technologies that are coming online, it takes a while for society to kind of ramp up and to catch up. And so I think what's important in this conversation is to understand that, yes, all these technologies are disruptive like any new technology throughout the centuries. But what we don't want is just to be a disruption. I think it's very important that we also think about how we can, as you've said quite well, how it can value people and organizations. Perhaps we could kick off and you could describe a little more about how you see innovation and how from your experience, and then we'll start general and kind of filter it down to more specifics. Yeah. Yeah. So, like you say, I think when we're talking about new technology, I absolutely agree with you. We have seen that for centuries. And we have also seen artificial intelligence for centuries, actually, since we start making the first machine that could think, that could do things that the only human brain could do before. And then we started developed artificial intelligence. But what we also have seen through history is that you have some technology that brings substantial leaps when it comes to how it's changed society. And I think we are in the middle of one of those these days. So, but what also, how it also affects the society is that it also changed the power balance between people, between countries, between companies. So it also changed the technology itself also changed society because there is difference. How people are able to capitalize on this new technology, and use it so I think where we are now I think it's really exciting times and a little bit frightening also because it's happening so much at the same time yeah I mean if you were to scroll through Instagram or read LinkedIn I think for a lot of people, they may be sitting more with the frightening side of the fence than the more exciting side of the fence. I'm kind of sitting on the fence because it doesn't really affect my industry right now. But I just recently saw a Google event where a former CEO of Google says, you know, within the 12 months, by the end of this year, there may not be any need for coders. By the end of two years top mathematicians and physicists perhaps not even there you know because of the i think they called it agi um artificial general intelligence that is coming on i mean what are some of your what are some of your ideas about that before we dive more into innovation, I think you heard a lot of very smart people who say they are really afraid of artificial general intelligence. So I think what it actually says is that they're going to be so smart. They're going to be able to process so much information much faster than we can with our brain. So they will be actually smarter than us. in what but in a way that we define smart today because as you know I think we only know, a little bit about how our own brain function I think I read someplace we know 10 percent of always working but 90 percent is a black box for us so so I'm not afraid that technology should. Replace overthinking and feelings and that kind of stuff but I think we are developing a really powerful tool and that we need to think about how to use it so for example um i read now that the last open eye um solution they refused to turn itself off because they have coded it so that it's going to to solve problems and it's going to work around all obstacles that it meet that it meets during that exercise and turning off itself off is absolutely an obstacle so we have actually coded it to to work around it and don't do it but i'm not that afraid some people think it's stupid not to be afraid of of artificial general intelligence but i think we the society will develop also to use it uh in a wise in a wise way but of course it's also scary because due to the geopolitic situation that we see. How is all this? And I think that's also part of why we see all this geopolitic program game now is because we are in changing times and people that are fighting for positions. So I think this is linked. It is an interesting period we are in and it seems to be a confluence. Now, innovation is generally being thought about driven by the human mind or a group of human minds working together in that overused term of brainstorming and trying to find new solutions to new challenges using maybe past technologies, past ways of doing things, but to innovate on them. As machine learning as ai becomes much more ubiquitous it's it's all around us how does it how do you see the the space within innovation moving from just a human domain, more to a human and machine domain if not just a machine domain itself in some industries. Um i think you're absolutely right i think we're going we are using uh when when you see to the But when you look upon the traditional innovation tools that you use, you do prototyping, you ask people, you do scenarios, you do all this kind of stuff. Artificial intelligence is brilliant for doing that kind of work. So I think we will need to, like everyone, I think we will need to just implement AI into the way that we are working and use it in a smart way. But so it's just another way of working. But when it comes to innovation, what I really think is most important is to understand what kind of innovation. Of value should i create or what kind of problem should i solve and what we see when it comes to technology very often is that you develop new technology and then we say okay hey we have this nice new technology what we need something to use it for for example if you look at blockchain, we have all this kind of blockchain companies when we started working on blockchain was oh we can use it for tried finance we can use it for id we can use it for, transfer of money, we can use it. So you are looking for all these different places to use this new technology. And I think when it comes to blockchain, we actually still do. And I think that's also a very important thing about innovation that you have to try a lot of different things to understand new technology and how to use them. And where they actually are bringing value. And I think that's what you talk about when it comes to digital. Be able to imagine where could new technology be used. What does it actually mean? There is what we call a digital for stillingsammer in Norwegian. I struggle to find a good translation. Yeah, I guess the closest would be the imagination of using the digital sphere or digital imagination. Yeah. And I think that's what that is. It's also to be able to understand technology and how you can combine them to create new services, new products, new things, actually, and enrich people's life. So, I mean, what does that look like? I mean, is it a bunch of, you know, human beings sitting around the table? And as we've become so used to the quality of the prompt that we ask an AI is going to be the quality of the answer we get. What we know is that artificial intelligence, it's changed the interface between people and technology. So using these large language models, for example, they are able to understand when you speak. They will also be able to understand your gestures. So when I'm talking to you like this, using my hands or looking straight to the camera, it means something. I communicate this way also, and we will see that artificial intelligence could, in a much larger way, also be able to interpret what it actually means. So I don't need to speak only by my prompt, for example, going forward. I think we will see we will interact with technology in a very new way. So that's one way of thinking, one step ahead. So it's not just prompting. What it actually is doing now is that we are sitting on a typewriter with electricity on and writing. But it's not a very natural way for us to communicate, not with each other. And it will not be in 10 years the natural way to communicate with technology either. It will just be integrated using our language, our speak, eyes, gestures, and it will kind of be seamless connection between the digital and the physical world in new ways. And in that way, we can see that what we see in new technology when it comes to AI, when it comes to VR. When it comes to R, it will all help us to kind of build a new relation with the technology for each and one of us. So, when we, for example, had the dump, the machine, and started to produce it, it was more like it produced a little part of the way we use technology and changed a lot because we were able to replace human workforce with machines. Now we are kind of also see how can technology enrich people who is working with more abstract thinking, doing, producing things in a more intellectual way. Yeah, just talking to you, you know, but talking to you, seeing your mannerisms and your body language, you seem to be much more positive to a lot of these new technologies that are coming online that we're migrating more into it. So, I guess maybe a more general question. From what I understand is that you've led a number of internal startups in the organizations you've worked with and national tech initiatives. How has your perspective on what makes innovation successful evolved over the years? I guess that's a more general question without getting too much in the weeds of specific technologies. Yeah i think you have when it comes to development you have um. You have different phases so i like to think and i like to to work on all different phases actually so when what i'm talking about now is kind of more like pre-id phase so okay what we're doing that is that we are observing what's happening in the tech era what is happening we hope people use tech what is happening where where do we see people invest money where so so kind of understand what's going on out there what what does it mean how what what will change, so so that's more like okay continuously keeping an eye on what's happening outside organization or outside your own life so. Being in touch with development. And then you start working on, see, okay, what does it mean? What kind of ideas can we develop? And that could be different kind of ideas. But most, when it comes to business, most of what we want to develop is either ideas that connect the customer more close to us so that we can build a stronger relationship or something that we can earn money on and easily capitalize on or something that can reduce our cost. So that's kind of the three main areas that we are looking into and we look for ideas. And then I think there is an important aspect, and that is timing. When should you do your idea? For example, if you look at VIPS, which we made, that was what we actually did there. So could you just clarify VIPs for our international audience? So it's a P2P payment, a person-to-person payment. It started out like that. It's very easy. It's like a mobile app. So what we did, we did actually just one very important thing, and that was that we connected each person's bank account number with their mobile number. So when you send a message, you can just send it. you can just say okay i want to transfer money to this telephone number or this person that has this telephone number so it's very easy to start to start working and the idea itself is very simple and we had been working on that for like three years before we launched it but i think when we launched it it was the timing was very right because the management then was very anxious about Apple Pay coming and being launched. And also Facebook was looking into this kind of initiatives. So it was kind of a feel of urgency. So we got attention of the management and we got the money to invest and develop. And also people, we solved a real problem for people. So, because it's very hard to do the person-to-person payment when you little degree use paper money like you do in a Norwegian society. So, I think the timing was right. I think had we done it five years before, it might not have been that successful or later. So I think timing when it comes to innovation is really, it's key. It's a key component. And I also think that people driving innovation, like myself, we are not the best person to see that because we always have a feel of urgency. So you need good management and good people that are able to both keep you motivated as an innovator, but also have a broader understanding of where you are when it comes to the timing. What were some of the skepticism or critical thoughts about it when you first launched the ideas? Because I think this is a good example. Just to speed people up, Vips in Norway is something that's ubiquitous now. Everybody uses it. There's no question. It's just part of the background of our financial society. We are pretty much cashless per se, and everything's digital. And we don't even think about it. But that's on the other end. Once everyone's adopted technology, everyone's used to it. But if we rewind back to when it was first kicked off, what were some what was some of the skepticism to the new technology that you can recall? I think in the market, it was now. It was very clear that we solved a very real problem for the customers. So it was not easy. It was a great marketing work, getting it out. But what we saw was that people were not willing to pay anything to use it. So the customer needed it for free. And then there was the problem because for the bank that developed it it cost money to transfer the money because we we could have transferred money between inside of our own bank for free kind of very cheap but we also knew that this is a game where we need everyone on board being able to to to scale it and enable to build new services that you can earn money on so what we needed to do was to use the visa rails so we have to pay a lot to actually do the transfer so you have to be you have the bank have to pay um to pay for for the transfer between for each transfer the company yeah yeah the bank had to pay to visa right yeah so so and that was an investment that needed to be done and it cost a lot of money and they didn't earn money for several years so that was a risk that you had to be willing to take to do that investment and to have this high cost even though you have no income and then the thought was and what we see now is that okay we will build new services on top of these ecosystems so that we can start earning money And also we did something with the reels underneath so that we don't have to use Visa in Norway, for example, anymore. So I think the cost was the most critical. Okay, we are willing to do the investment and we had a management that was willing to do that at the time. And now VIPS, which was part of the National Bank of Norway, has spun off into its own company and in itself is a success story. But what did you personally learn from that process, from Cradle, the birth of the idea, to where it is now, and it's spun off, as I said, as its own company, that we can apply? What were some of the insights you personally got or received that we can apply to new technologies coming on and the innovative process? I think my reflection on what from the whole Vipsa experience is that you have to keep things simple and really focus on the value that you want to create. And also you have to respect that there is a lot of different competence areas that's needed. For example, building the technical solution, of course, which is close to my heart. It's it's a job and it's uh it's not easy it's hard but but so uh for people standing outside okay but it's just to build a new technical solution uh but then you have the other things that for example is marketing and i think what the marketing people in dmv did with vips when it comes to to be able to scale the use of it was brilliant and i think also it's easy to say outside the marketing team was like okay but that's easy but it isn't it's hard work and so so i think having respect for and that everyone needs to contribute in able to have a succeed i think that's very clear from from from vips and also i think what you saw that also was a key element when it comes to to vips back in the days is that you were able to launch to to really engage every employee in dmb so 10 000 people were selling whips and start using and then you had a network effect yes so first they start using their families and to their friends and and then it's very quickly spread and this the spread was critically enabled to to to be a. Yeah, so the innovation process in itself is not just the technical solution, it's the marketing around it. It's changing mindsets, it's shifting mindsets to adopt new practice of whatever that may be, or for people to see how that technology can benefit them. Yeah, and I think the mix, it's important to have people that understand the mix. And also, it's also kind of fun because history has its way. I think I was part of WIPS in the beginning. I haven't been working with WIPS for several years. So, but I think it's fun for me who was part of this also to see how the story about WIPS is developing as time goes. It's not that people are lying, but you're telling the history from a different perspective after the project has, after WIPS has grown. No, it's 10 years since we launched it. And you remember, your memory is selected. So you remember the history so that it fits to the story you want to tell today. And so it's nothing wrong in that. It's just interesting to see and listen to people telling the story now. Another project you work on was IDME or Leading IDME. That's I-D-M-E-E. Could you explain what that technology is? And maybe, I guess that's a little more current, and maybe that can also be some lessons we can relate to in regards to innovation. Yeah, and I think that's also a good example of how different technology needs to work together to be able to create services. So what we did in IDME is that we have a problem in Norway because you need to identify yourself in order to get a digital ID. You need to present yourself with your passport in the bank or at the police, and prove this is me and Jan again here is the proof and then you get issued a digital ID or actually your token your code brick, and since Norway is a large land this is troublesome for people living, in the sense of actually physically going to the police station physically going, yes. Because we are closing down officers, so if your life lived in. Yeah, Karasok, you need to go to Alta, for example. So we want to see, can we do this whole project digital? And what we were looking at that was when you look in your passport, you see that you have this chip in your passport. And on this chip, all the information from the passport is stored. So there is a high resolution picture of you. It's all the information that's in the passport. and this information is digitally signed by the issuer of country. So you are able to use a RFID reader and upload all the information from the passport and you can use your phone for that. So what we did, we made a solution where you could take your passport and you can take your phone and you can just put your phone on the passport. We uploaded all the information, also the high resolution picture of you And then you could film yourself while we are flashing a lot of light and analyzing how was that light reflected. And we did that to be sure that you didn't hold up a picture, but it was a real, alive person not wearing a mask or anything, doing the idea. And then we matched the face that you were filming with the face on the photo. And then we could say okay this we're absolutely sure jason it's you showing your passport and and then we are able to give you a digital bank idea for example. So we we had this idea this is this something we can work and first we made that we had a very. Brilliant colleague who made this solution by using open source and so first we see okay can Can we do this? Is it able to, is it doable technically? And we found that it was, but we also found that, okay, here is some areas that we don't have the capabilities of ourselves. For example, when it comes to keeping track of all the different passports and all the digital signatures that we have to be sure that it was a real passport. And also the likeness detection, the fraud detection. So what we did then was that we have to find partners who could work together with us to deliver those capabilities. And we found then one UK firm and one from the Netherlands. And then we developed this product together. And as an internal startup. So, but I think also that was also maybe a little bit a project that was not the timing was maybe not that good. We were maybe a little bit earlier. So, but what we did was we developed the solutions and tried to sell it as a standalone solution. But after a while we found, okay, either we have to build up a larger organization internally. We were like 10 people or something like that or we have to find a partner so what we did was that we actually so idme is now a part of bank id so in the bank id app you have this little iphone that's id yourself and that's our solution line behind that and i think that was a wise it was wise to to put the technology into that app. So one of the lessons you learned from taking the idea from concept to market, specifically ID.me in this case, was that instead part of the innovation process was, as I understand you're saying, is that we didn't need to build up internally more people in a greater department focusing on this, but let's find an external department that has the competency and knowledge in which we can collaborate to bring it to market. Was that one of the lessons learned? Yeah, and also I think we didn't think everything true when it comes to the sales, to building a sales organization. For example, we were thinking because DMV has offices all over the world and we knew this is a product that we can sell internationally. But what we didn't think true was that banking people is not the best to sell technology. they are very good understanding people. Financial products. Financial products. Not when you present it. And it's obvious. I was like, what are they saying? No, I think it's obvious that we couldn't use the same people to start technology. But we were maybe a little naive. So that was one of the learnings that we had among money. So when building something new like this, what are some of the hidden barriers that can stall innovation in larger organizations or corporations? I mean, from your perspective. Different things. I think you need someone who really is passionate about this to drive the innovation. And that's that people are different but for me as a person I need to have to have I need to feel secure I need to feel safe and I need the managers that support me so that I know if I fuck up okay I will survive. People who stand by me so for me that's extremely that's extremely that's number one for me to to to be my best. Yeah, so the people within the innovation department have to have some level of psychological safety. They need to feel secure and connected and that their contributions have value in order for them to innovate. Because otherwise, I think you get afraid and then you don't dare to do anything. So because a lot of corporations that I work within, you know, they are driven by the short term, which you can understand. It's the quarterly results. But innovation is the long game. It requires a perspective or a mindset of long term development. And sometimes within corporations that are so focused on the short term, Yannicka, is that, you know, that's almost counterintuitive within an organization to have one dedicated department that's looking at the long game. That, no, we're not, this is not going to be profitable within 12 months. That maybe it's 36, 48 months or what have you. I mean, within the organizations you've worked, how has the organization in general has focused on the short term, but how have they been able to incubate an environment for long term thinking where innovators such as you feel psychologically safe to make mistakes, to stumble, to learn from mistakes? That's a long question. I think this is all about cultures and I think it's about top management investment. So I have had some really great managers over time. So Rune Bjerke, who was in DMV both with WIPS and with several of my innovation projects, was really supportive. I said, OK, I want this. How is this going? I want this. So when you have this strong buying from top management, it's easier. I had a time in the tax department with Diana Hupe, who was also a marvelous top manager, who was visiting the project in the middle of the night when we were working and working. Really caring, serving chocolate, because it was nothing else they could do, but it was serving chocolate. So I think if you want to succeed in innovation, it must be buy-in for top management. I think it's really, really hard, if not. And I think that goes a little bit in cycles, because it's not important for top management all the time. My impression, my experience is that it's often top managers that have been in their role for some time. That is easier to invest. And that makes sense because when you start in a new position, you really want to deliver on the core business first and understand it and be sure. And when you feel you have control of that, it's easier to start adding flavors like more, to take more risk. because innovation is the risk. I think you need also top managers that are secure in their, that feel secure in their own position. Okay, so what I understand is that there has to be top management may have two perspectives. One is the short-term game, the tactical, but the strategical is the long-term. So they have to also have a mindset. They want to be invested in the idea that our innovation departments We'll bring new solutions that could be profitable in the future for us. And if we don't have things in the pipeline, then we are going to get stunted and maybe caught off guard by other industries or other competitors that will disrupt us and maybe even that could be the end of us. So what I understand is one of the hidden barriers to take down is to make sure some of the people sitting in the top chairs, they are able to create an ecosystem in which innovation can flourish. And that's to give them the latitude and altitude to make mistakes, to learn, and to understand there is risk in this. So what are some other hidden barriers that you've you've discovered in organizations that can hinder um innovation and ways of overcoming it yeah of course it could also be that new products or new solutions will compete with existing ones and then people want to protect their own areas and their own revenue streams for example and don't want to transfer people to the new one. You have that also with Pips, for example, when should we move. Transactions to a brand that they are actually losing money on. Is that a wise investor? Or should they try to get people to use solutions and pay for doing that transaction, for example? So that's interesting. So you can have an internal conflict because one innovative solution actually threatens the revenue stream or threatens the livelihood of another department. So I guess in general terms, from your experience, what is needed to try to bridge that so we can try to mitigate some of this threat response? Yeah i think it's important to understand that uh you can do it yourself inside the company or they can come on external competitors and take the same positions then it's better that you develop that product yourself than expose yourself to by not changing because you have to continuously change um the value that you create for for the customers so i think creating this. Understanding of what's happening outside the organization is really important that's fascinating i think that was a very important part of the innovation work is to to bring new perspective new knowledge example of what other people are doing into the organization and build understanding of what's happening out there i think that's also a really important part of working with innovation. I think that's a great reframe because, yes, internally this new technology may be a threat, but was even a greater threat because the idea is already out of the bottle, the genie's out of the bottle. So this technology is coming regardless if we like it or not. Shall we do it internally and take the punches but be able to weather and have an innovative product? Or shall we be threatened by someone who could be more nimble, faster at bringing this product to market or innovative product to market or technology to market, and then we're all in a sinking ship. Is that what I understand? I think that's a great read for you. So that's one way of doing it. When it comes to larger organization, it's also always a discussion, should you have your own group of people working with innovation or should you do it in the core business and have people working there? And that's also something very interesting because, of course, you should work with innovation also in the core production and make things better all the time. The challenge there is that you don't have enough distance, so you don't see the disruptive activities going on because you are wrapped up in the daily run. But then if you have a subcontinuation gang working with the destructive things and you want to take that into the core business, you have the it's not invented here syndrome that people haven't been part of developing the solution so that they feel no ownership for it so it's easy that it's just if you place it out in into the organization it just die because you have no passion you have no mama to to you have no big mama to look after the baby so so and i think you need to. New projects and so on, you really need to nurture them in order to succeed for quite some time. So I think that's also a very usual discussion that large organizations have. How should we place the innovation team? Should it be in the line organization or should it be as a separate entity? I think that's an important conversation because if we circle back to VIPs, what you said, you know, marketing was very important there. Obviously, the technology, but it was bringing to some extent 10,000 employees to have some level of ownership of buy-ins where they're pushing the idea, pushing the mindset of this new technology. What I'm understanding you're saying is that it's important to spread the sense of ownership and buy-in. Yeah absolutely so i think communicate and to use the innovation people to make sure that you have people there that are willing to share and let other people shine also and really share all they've learned share insight don't keep don't keep that close to heart because in an organization it's things should be shared and then because you then you both build competence in the organization but you also build a sense of proudness of the organization we have people working in this, I come to this dinner appointment and I know this I start using Copilot at work and bring something I think you cannot overestimate the importance of. Making people feel like they're part of the development, that they understand what's happening i think that's i think that's really really important to to to succeed when it comes to to working with innovation and also because i think a lot of people are working with innovation because when you work with new stuff you don't know you do qualify guesses but you don't know so so so there is a really big chance that you are saying things that will not happen for example first time I think I tried Snapchat I think it must be eight or nine years the first month it was coming maybe eight years ago and I was this no one is going to use that who wants to miss their messengers I look where we are today so so so it was more like for because for me and then it was important to have had the archive of all the messengers I couldn't know I was going to send a hundred snap. Each day also so yeah yeah so you just don't know right it's so it's it's you don't know so you have to be able to and so you just have to own your failures also i like that well talking about owning owning things if we could segue you were named one of norway's top 50 women in tech i was wondering what did that recognition mean to you personally and how do you feel in may or has influenced your work i really really appreciated the recognition. For being named her and i think it was the first year that price was that list was made and this is a list that was made for having more women in tech and giving role models and say okay here's people woman working in tech that's that's good and have achieved achieve something so um i I really appreciate it because very often I have been the only woman in the room, both working in tech and in finance. I think it's nice. It's nice to have some external recognition. I appreciate it. I think what you said also, it's very important, especially for young people coming up, to see that it is possible to see that, yes, this person has made it. She or he or what have you has kind of broken through whatever sort of glass ceiling there was. And it is possible. So as we come close to the top of the hour, I have another question for you. For someone who wants to work within tech innovation, but doesn't know where to begin, what's one mindset or habit you'd recommend starting with? Be curious and test new stuff test, sit down with young people with your children and follow them look what are they doing online I have two sons and like you know they are 22 and 25 this year and I remember when they were kids and playing all these data games, all the time I have a discussion with my husband and he was like no they should not play these games they should be out playing and I was like okay but they can play for them they need to learn to be able to regulate this themselves, and then I sat down and I played with them and I looked at what are they actually doing and then I said to my husband have you, done that and he hadn't because he wasn't interested and then I said okay I will discuss this with you when you have when you sit down and play and do game game gaming with them for three hours then we can discuss it when you haven't even looked into it i'm not willing to discuss it so i think be curious sit down with your kids and because they are digital natives well thank you very much today janek i really appreciate your time thank you. As we cross the finish line of today's episode, a few key insights stand out from my conversation with Janneke Bidikvold. First, innovation flourishes only when organizations create psychological safety and leaders actively support long-term exploration. Without that foundation, even the best ideas struggle to survive. Second, real-world cases like VIPs and Norway's digital ID, well, they remind us that success depends on timing, simplicity, and solving real customer problems, not just on the technology itself. And finally, the most important insight, the mindset that will keep leaders and organizations relevant is adaptability over certainty. Technologies will continue to evolve, the markets will shift, and disruption will remain a constant. What makes a difference is not holding on tighter to what we know but being willing to learn, adjust and grow as circumstances change and if there's one thing to take with you from today's episode it's this the leaders who thrive are not those who predict every turn but those who embed resilience, curiosity and adaptability into the way they think, decide and act and a big shout out to you Yannick for spending your valuable time with me today, sharing some of your thoughts behind innovation because it is a necessity. It is a skill that we all need to adapt. And we need to move from the short-term to the long-term thinking because there are a lot of challenges on the horizon and we are migrating into a lot of them. Folks, if you know someone this episode might be of interest, please share it with them. It helps me spread the word. And to you, dear listener, thank you for allowing me to be part of your day and i hope you pulled something from this conversation and until we meet again at the end of the week for bite-sized fridays keep well keep strong and. Music.