Staying Focused Under Pressure: Practical Tools from Performance Psychology with Dr Dana Sinclair

“Confidence is about how you feel. Performance is about what you do.” - Dr. Dana Sinclair

How do you perform at your best when pressure is highest? In this episode of It’s an Inside Job, performance psychologist Dr. Dana Sinclair breaks down practical, evidence-based tools for staying focused, calm, and effective when it matters most—without relying on confidence or empty positivity.

What if peak performance isn’t about feeling confident—but about knowing exactly what to do when pressure hits?

Key Takeaway Insights and Tools 

• Pressure derails performance when attention drifts from task to distraction
  Fears, self-doubt, expectations, and results-thinking pull focus away from execution. The solution isn’t elimination—but rapid redirection.
  00:10:15–00:10:58
• “Shift when you drift” is the core performance skill
  High performers anticipate mental drift and pre-plan how to bring attention back to the task—again and again.
  00:10:58–00:11:15
• Positive self-talk can hurt performance if it’s vague or unrealistic
  Platitudes and affirmations fail when they’re not grounded in facts or relevant to the task.
  00:11:47–00:12:44
• Negative self-talk can be useful—if you work with it
  Negative thoughts can signal what needs adjusting. Reframing or redirecting them is more effective than suppressing them.
  00:13:30–00:24:56
• Smart Talk = Facts + Constructive Self-Guidance
  Performance self-talk should be built on factual evidence (past successes, competence) and used actively during pressure moments.
  00:17:49–00:26:24
• Confidence is unreliable—action is what matters
  Confidence fluctuates and doesn’t predict performance. Execution depends on behaviours, not feelings.
  00:28:30–00:30:48
• Performance cues anchor attention in the moment
  One or two simple, task-relevant cues (posture, listening, mechanics) keep performers grounded and effective.
  00:33:47–00:37:11
• Breathing is the fastest way to regain control under pressure
  A single slow nasal inhale and extended exhale can calm the nervous system and reset focus in seconds.
  00:38:03–00:41:53
• Post-performance evaluation accelerates improvement
  A quick review—rating performance, noting what worked, and identifying one adjustment—builds skill and self-compassion.
  00:43:01–00:45:49
• Visualization works best in short, frequent “mental clips”
  Brief, sensory-rich mental rehearsals strengthen performance readiness without becoming burdensome.
  00:52:04–00:58:51

Bio

Dr. Dana Sinclair is a performance psychologist, clinical assistant professor at the University of British Columbia, and author of Dialed In: Do Your Best When It Matters Most. She works with elite performers across sport, medicine, business, and education—including athletes from the NFL, NBA, NHL, Olympians, surgeons, CEOs, and students—helping them perform under pressure with clarity and control. 

Call to Action

If this episode helped you rethink pressure and performance, subscribe to It’s an Inside Job so you don’t miss future conversations on resilience, focus, and leading yourself well.

Chapters

• 0:16 Introduction to the Podcast
• 1:42 Practical Tips for Everyday Challenges

Transcript

0:04

This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Hey folks, welcome back to the show. It's an Inside Job. I'm your host, Jason Lim. This week, we're going to delve into the captivating world of performance psychology with the esteemed Dr. St. Clair. And she has just recently released her book, Dialed In, Do Your Best When It Matters Most. Now, she has an impressive academic background. Dr. St. Clair holds doctorates from the University of Cambridge and the University of Ottawa, bringing a wealth of knowledge and experience to our discussion today. And as a clinical assistant professor with the Faculty of Medicine at the University of British Columbia, and as a member of the American Psychological Association, while her credentials speak volumes about her expertise and dedication to her field. Now, her practice stands out for its diversity and impact, working closely with an array of high performers across different domains, from professional athletes in the NFL, the NBA, the NHL, IndyCar, WTDA, PGA, and other Olympians. You know, her work in enhancing performance psychology is unparalleled, But also beyond the realm of sports, Dr. Sinclair also applies her expertise to assist surgeons, students, executives, parents, coaches, performance artists, and the list goes on. So in today's episode, we will explore the nuances of performance psychology, touching on crucial aspects that influence performance. We'll delve into the mental distractions that can impede success, such as fears, negative self-talk, anxieties and doubts, and the detrimental focus on results and expectations. Dr. Sinclair will share her insights on the importance of shifting focus from these derailers back to the task at hand, offering practical strategies for maintaining peak performance. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream with my brilliant conversation with Dr. Dana Sinclair. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jason. Looking forward to this. I was wondering if you could just give us a quick intro to who you are and what you're about. Absolutely. I am a performance psychologist and I work with a variety of high performers and any kind of performer, actually. So I work with CEOs, professional athletes, professional teams, parents, students, surgeons, performance artists, anybody who wants to be a little bit better or thinks they can be a little bit better in their pressure moments. Brilliant. Today, we are here because of your book, Dialed In. I'm curious, could you share sort of the inspiration behind Dialed In and what you hope readers will take away from it, just as a general beginning? Yeah. So I wrote this, it just came out in January, and it's sort of the culmination of 20 years of practice, of private practice. As I say, I've worked with a lot of professional teams and business executives and students taking exams. And what I learned over time was that there's a certain process that allows people to get calmer and more clear and more focused when they feel pressure so they can perform better. And I wanted everybody to be able to access that type of thing and apply to their own work and lives, because everybody can be, you know, a little bit more elite than they already are. Yeah. And I'm just curious. I like to ask all authors when we kick off an interview, what did you learn about yourself writing the book? Now, that is a good question. I'm not even sure what I learned about myself, except that I could actually sit there day after day and really get engrossed in a project that was daunting at first. And I ended up loving writing a book and I didn't think I would. Because I find that a lot of authors, a lot of the times they discover something about themselves, Like they know their skills inside out, what they teach, but it's through moving ink to paper, or in this case, maybe typing on a screen, that they sometimes see the intricacies of their logic, how they may have missed some sort of connective tissue. And that it's kind of expanded on how they explain or how they educate their client base or whatever the message they're trying to get across. So I always find it interesting to just to figure out what authors learned about themselves or are in the process of. Was it a difficult process at first? As you said, it was quite daunting. What is the reason it was daunting? I think when you first have to put a structure down and a proposal as to what you're going to write chapter to chapter to chapter and a description thereof. It is a little daunting because you think you've got it. Oh, yeah, I'll write a book. I know what I'm talking about. I talk about these particular subjects. And then you have to expand further. And then you think, oh, is that really going to be a chapter's worth? Or do I need to, how am I going to condense this particular topic or concept into something readable and interesting? So that did take a while at first. And yeah, it was a little, it was a little scary at first, but of course you just plug away and you have fun pulling out the concepts that you really want people to know. And I wanted this book to be different than the other books out there because I want it to be hands-on, easy reading, something anybody could pick up off the shelf and apply immediately, not a year from now or six months from now or have to do all this homework. I want them to be able to pick it up, use something, go and apply it to your life. You've worked with a lot of athletes across the spectrum. And, you know, writing a book in itself is a form of performance. And when I hear you, what you said at the beginning, you had a sort of a narrative. This is kind of daunting. How do I articulate this? How do I how do I script this? And I think that comes back down to performance in general. And that's where I'd like to shift. In your book, you talk a lot about there's four really specific skills at the end that we can explore in a second later in the conversation. But I'd like to understand a little more about sort of the narrative behind performance, because I think everyone, whatever they're performing, I mean, they don't have to be athletes, but it's that narrative, that self-critical voice, that self-doubt that kind of seeds into our head because of. The brain's negativity bias and maybe can you talk a little maybe a little around that narrative that we assign to things or that self-talk certainly well first i do you've got me thinking now and i'm thinking about the book and the one thing that did come out in the process too was. You end up speaking to your clients more loosely or differently than you do and you have to write it down. So sometimes I would go into a chapter and think, I've got this. And I'd start writing and I think, oh, wait a minute. I have to be much more articulate or clear about this process or about this concept, because it's one thing to talk about it and to be loose in a conversation. But I have to make this really tight so anybody doesn't get lost in these paragraphs. They can, you know exactly understand what I want them to do or what I want them to get out of this so that was something that you made me think about thank you very much and going on to sort of performance in general you know we're all performers and all performers whether you're an NFL quarterback or you know having to present at a meeting everybody struggles in their in their pressure moments so So I tend to deal with, like most people are doing very well in their lives, thank you very much. They don't need somebody like me 24-7 talking to them at all. You know, my philosophy is more, okay, let's make people independent and coach themselves. So, again... Even high performers struggle when their pressure moments are on. And that's what I talk to people about is their pressure moments, not the general necessarily day-to-day. It's when they really want to do well or need to do well or when the moment is meaningful. So you've talked about in your book, you've talked about the destructive effects that self-talk can have on us, especially specifically in high pressure moments, because that's when of when everything's kind of cooking and we feel just feel the pressure and the tension upon us that's when unless we have a routine to fall back on but even then a lot of us default to this negativity bias i mean yeah how does someone deal with that like in the moment i'd like to do a deeper exploration to this sure how it necessarily works in those pressure moments is we all sort of drift into what I call our hotspots, distractions, derailers, things that get in the way, things that frustrate us, bug us. So there's a whole list of things, and it could be fears, it could be negative self-talk, doubts, self-criticism, expectations, others' expectations, thinking about results, how it's going to go, the weather, you didn't eat enough, it could be anything. And that's where. People lose their performance if they stay focused on those things, because you can't be focused on the task and doing what you need to do if your mind has drifted over to any of these distractions. It could be a silly distraction too, but if we aren't pre-planned and aware of what could drag us over there, then we're not ready to ship back onto the task. And that's the whole trick of this is to know what gets in your way and have a few things pre-planned to pull your mind back onto the task at hand. Got to be able to talk your way through a performance or at least have something to grab onto if you falter, if you start to drift. Got to shift when you drift. You have to shift when you drift. I like that. I like that. In your book, you talked about i'd like to get on to the sort of the smart talk in a second uh but in your book you also mentioned that you know we are sometimes under the false impression that positive self-talk is always positive but you mentioned how it can actually be detrimental and at the same time you also mentioned in the book actually how negative self-talk or can actually be beneficial. Yeah i was wondering if you can elaborate on because i've never seen that in a book before And the way you articulated it hit home. It really resonated with me. I was wondering for our listeners, if you could sort of expand on that. Well, as you've mentioned, self-talk is obviously with us at all times. It's our internal chatter, and it can get in our way. Not many people have natural, great self-talk in the moment. They have to think about it a little bit. so self-talk it does get in the way and you, People are always advising those, just be positive, just believe in yourself. And that, I think, is not the greatest advice. Just be positive. Well, I could be positive, but it could be completely irrelevant to the task, or it could be untrue. It could be, you know, aspirational, but completely not achievable. So I like to make sure that self-talk is, it can be neutral, it could be very good. Constructive, productive self-talk. That's where I want people to go. Just, you know, mantras and platitudes, I don't think those are particularly helpful. But that means that we have to think about our self-talk first and identify, are there things, negative self-talk, that's holding us back, that's getting in our way, that's, you know, diverting us to those hot spots and those distractions? Oh, I can't do it. What's going to happen if I do results? All those things, that's not helpful. We have to maybe pre-plan what we should be thinking about. And again, that negative self-talk, well, you know, that can actually be very good information to know, say, what you're actually doing. Okay, that's not helping me. I better be aware of that. Okay, I better switch it to something else. So negative can help. I'm not saying to call yourself down. I'm saying it can give you an idea of where you are in your performance or what you need to do to improve. Yeah. So positive self-talk in this case is when it's superficial, when it's kind of abstract, when it's vacuous, when it's not really helping us. As you said, platitudes and such. And it's based on false premises or it's not factual. We're just trying to kid ourselves. Not factual. Yes. Like I'm going to be the best. I have to be the best in the world. Well, you don't. But okay. No but but i think that's it's it's i think it's so important to talk about this because you know a lot of people talk oh just say affirmations affirmation affirmations to some degree i agree that works but the depth that you're talking about i i think it is it is kind of superficial and it's just just a hot air it doesn't really do much like kind of like empty calories of the brain right yes yes i'm thinking of a a woman i was talking to who went on a school kayak trip you know with their with their kids class and they're whitewater kayaking and she was going to go down this set of rapids and it was it was pretty funny because she was she got in she was ready to go. She had the training, but she was really scared. She wasn't sure that she could do it. So she started off down the rapids. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. You know, screaming, I can do it. I can do it. And then by the end of it, she was still saying, I can do it. I can do it. But it was quiet. It was under control. So that type of positive affirmation, kept her focused on what she was doing in front of her. I can do it. I can do it as opposed to I can't do it. I can't do it. You know, leaning back, tipping over. So that type of thing, while funny, is actually kind of helpful in that situation, but you have to determine, you know, what is actually going to work for you. Again, I think that's also, you know, parsing the details. And that is that because I think that is a very succinct point, what you're saying by, as you said, as she's screaming to herself where to place her focus in all the chaos, you know, not over and such. It is, it is a very, it's very sobering to hear that from yourself, right? Then you focus on what you have to focus on. but back to self-talk i i think the narrative that we tell ourselves is so important when it comes to performance or pretty much anything in life yes so self-awareness would suggest to me that is the first step but how does someone become self-aware of their narrative like i guess let's say they're not forming in the heat of the moment but they are trapped in some sort of over overthinking or rumination from your perspective how does someone catch themselves in the moment in the here and now to become self-aware of that whatever destructive narrative they're tanking themselves on. I think the easiest way is to pick an event, a performance, something that is important to you. And it could be a meeting or an interview or an interaction. And think about, hey, on my good days when I am doing a really good job and I'm feeling good and I'm behaving well and I'm on task. What am I thinking? What am I doing? What am I saying to myself? Okay. and then conversely then go to okay when I didn't do a good job at all when it was not happening for me when I was unhappy with my performance again what was I doing what was I thinking what was I saying to myself so that's an easy way to really get into what you were actually thinking and saying to yourself before the performance and during easiest way and I I, you know, some people will balk at first and say, oh, I don't know. But if you leave them for a minute and say, you know, were you thinking good things? Were you telling yourself that you had done it before and that you're actually good at this because you're ranked? Or then they're like, oh, yeah, OK. Then they relax and they can actually articulate it and write it down. Since we're just riffing on narrative and self-talk and such, you mentioned one of the four really great skills at the back of the book, not the back of the book, the four last chapters. You talked about smart talk. I was wondering if you could explain what smart talk is and how our listeners can use it in their day to day. Yes. Smart talk is really self-talk. I break self-talk down into two components. One, you've got facts. And two, you've got smart talk. I'll talk about facts first. Because once you've got your facts and you've got your smart talk, then you're ready to talk your way through those pressure moments. I want people to be able to... Bring themselves through cognitively by talking to themselves, as opposed to not just thinking, oh, automatically, I've thought this before, it's going to happen. Nope. I want you to actually talk yourself through those ones like the kayaker, you know? And again, an NFL quarterback, he's going to talk his way through his progressions and where he's got to pass the ball as well. You don't just let it happen. You've got to be able to think in the moment, which is another concept we can talk about later because people think you shouldn't, but I think you should. Anyway, back to the facts. I want people to have a list of their accomplishments, great feedback they've received, whether it's, you know, accomplishments, trophies, marks, winning something, doing well at something, good performance reviews. I want a list of those things, because that often allows people to sit back and go, oh, I'm not so bad. Because it's amazing when you ask someone, hey, what are some fun facts about you? What have you done well at? What are you good at? And a lot of people will automatically say, I don't know, or nothing. And if you, again, probe them a little or let them sit, then we get the list, you know? So I like people having bullet points of their accomplishments because those are facts even when they're cranky and upset they can't take away from themselves those are facts they can't refute those and i love people to sit on their facts and pay attention to their facts much more than than they currently do. I push the facts list. What do you think about that? I think the facts is, you know, when I'm talking to clients, you know, sometimes I can't remember who said it, but they said the past is experience. The present is an experiment and the future is an expectation. And so what I use different vernacular, but I say, you know, you can look over your shoulder from the trailhead to where you are now. That's your past. Nobody can take that. No one can strip that from you, Dana. You know, the hurdles that you've overcome, the pitfalls you've climbed out of, the hills and the valleys that you've hiked, that is fact. Nobody can take that. That's your experience. And this is one way for me to create self-compassion, right? Whether you flopped or you succeeded, you know, both of them requires a sense of resilience. But when you said, what do I think about that? For me, it resonates like 100% because the past is experienced. No one can do that. But then we can take that past experience, as you're saying, reframe it. Take those three or four bullet points, as you said. Right now, the conversation between you and I, Dana, is an experiment. And that experiment, we can play with ideas. You as the performance psychologist talking to me, you can reframe me. So my expectation is, one, not super positive, but I'm going into a difficult situation, but it can be constructive. So for me, it completely resonates what you're saying. Right. Because I think probably both of us in our work, we don't want people, certainly when it's time to perform, jumping into that future. We want them right here, right now, in the moment. And to do a good job there, you can pull in that experience and those facts. You can set yourself up to be a little calmer, to be ready to stay focused right now instead of somewhere else. And yeah, those facts, they set you up for it. And I think what you're saying about the future, right? And I think that's the fine line between speculation and strategy. Speculation is like just guessing, you know, worst case scenarios, crossing the bridge and then thinking, what are the consequences? But buddy, you don't even know if the bridge is there. But strategy, you can still think about negative outcomes, but you can have a strategic plan. I'm assuming that's what we're talking about here, right? Yeah, exactly. You do have to think about negative outcomes if you're trying to plan things. You know, I'm thinking of a team owner and the big CEO who constantly thinks about failure, constantly thinks about, you know, what could happen, what's the next move. Now, he's always got, you know, how to make that right or how to get by that. But thinking about the negative on its own isn't helpful, but thinking about what you're going to do about it. Now we're talking. You've got to have a plan. You've got to know what to do when you hit those roadblocks, when you hit those barriers, whether they're psychological barriers or physical barriers or whatever other kind of barriers there are. And so would that be the other side? You said smart talk is sort of a coin. One side is the facts, listening to facts, the bullet points. And the other side, would that be the second side of the coin? Yes, I like that analogy. So, right. So once you've got your facts and you can calm down a little now, it's like, oh, what do I actually say to myself that is in the way? And I do think it's good to have people write down, well, I usually say this and I usually say that. I'm really good in these situations. I've done this well before. I am really good when the pressure is on when I'm talking to my boss I stay calm and and clear and focus those types of things but what inevitably comes out with those are people go to the negative and I love them to identify the negative things they say to themselves I can't do this what's going to happen I'm going to blow it did I blow it last time they're going to think I'm stupid all of those things now let's have a look say there's six of those negative statements that they say all the time because it's default they just go back to those because they're comfortable with them and now we look at them and say okay uh you know you might call yourself an idiot but do you really does that really bother you do you just really mean that you probably don't really mean that or go through those and figure out what really does get in the way what really does bother you because there's a bunch of throwaway negative comments but identify the two or three that oh when I'm saying that I really feel the tension and the concern now we've got to reframe those. So it's a lot easier to either jettison them and substitute something else in there that's actually more constructive, productive, real, or twist it. Well, I am going to play badly if I don't calm down and stay focused on X. See, that's a good way to do it too. So you can absorb the negative. Well, I don't want to lose. I don't want to mess up. Okay, well then I guess I better do something different here. better calm down pay attention to what i'm supposed to be saying in my slideshow you know stay on task anything like that it's very helpful it is reappraisal right it's giving new meaning to the situation it is re-engineering the narrative we say or so so it's serving us not serving against us but not making it up yeah yeah definitely it has to be based on the first part you said where it's factual and then what i hear is that you take statements based on those facts whatever you've achieved and so on? Yes. It can be statements based on those facts. They can be totally two separate things. You can just hit your facts and then in the moment or working your way towards the event, just remind yourself, hey, come on now, you know. Because you're going to drift back into those negative thoughts, and you need to be able to handle those negatives when they hit you in the moment so they don't keep you stuck. So it's like, oh gosh, I really don't want to blow this. I'm afraid I'm going to blow this. Well, you know what? Hush up. Because if you don't breathe a little bit and remind yourself that you've done this 18,000 times before, you are going to blow it. So come on, let's get at it. Let's go. One of the ideas I wrote beside the smart talk was third person. You know, like if you start to like Jason did this, Jason did that, and you almost dissociate a little from the event and you see yourself more of an objective perspective and you don't get so lost in a subjective storm. And I thought that was just something my brain kind of riffed on in what you wrote. And I thought, okay, maybe that's also a good idea sometimes to distance yourself by using your name instead of me and I pronouns. Yes. And that's a good thing to discuss because I've not found a consensus with my clients anyway as to what's best or what works best. Everybody has their own way. And sometimes, I mean, I'll go back. I use self-talk a lot. I will go back and forth between talking to myself, using my name, and then just saying, me, come on, I. Like, I've got to do this. Let's go. Come on, Dana, smarten up. Whatever it is that I need to be doing. I go back and forth depending on the day or how I feel. Very true. Very true. It's very situational is what I hear you're saying. Yes. Or just based on your performance style, your, your, your character, your, you know, your behaviors, your natural behaviors. And that kind of segues into, at least my segues into my head is that, you know, when we talk about self-talk and smart talk and negative talk and such a rumination, all that, that leads to a concept. And again, I thought your chapter on confidence was very interesting. I was wondering if you could talk about the misconception of confidence, because a lot of people think if you have the confidence, you can do it. But your book is a little counterintuitive in the way. And it really resonated with me again, the way you've talked about it. Confidence is overrated. Again, with all the high performers I work with, one of the big myths about performing with success is that you have to be confident. And I say, no, you don't. You might want it, but you don't need it. Confidence is one of those things that is variable. It's vague. It's intangible. I mean, if we all think about our own confidence levels, we all know intuitively that it can be with us one day and not the next. It can flip on us from hour to hour, even minute to minute or within an event. It is not a reliable strategy to perform well. And I would like to bust this myth out there about confidence because it doesn't work. It's great if you feel it. I'm not against confidence, of course. Having confidence is a great start because it helps relax you. It helps you feel, okay, I can do it, step one. But you can be really confident and still blow the performance because you're not on task. Just because you feel good doesn't mean you're going to stay focused. It's all about what to do not about how you feel and confidence is about how you feel performing well is about what you do so i don't like people to get caught up in performance or sorry in in confidence when they're trying to perform because. It is a problem even for the high performers so i get i try to get away from it, And so what would you characterize it? Is it more sort of self-efficacy then? Focusing on actions more than feelings? Absolutely. In the moment, you've got to go to actions. We don't have time necessarily, especially, you know, if it's a short performance or an event, you don't have time to examine your feelings. You've got to get right to the do. You've got to do the do in the moment. You know, coming from my background, that's something we've always tried to separate. It's not, you know, it's separating mood from action. Don't allow the mood to dictate the action. And sometimes the other way around is let the action dictate the mood. But what I'm hearing from performance psychologists such as yourself, It's about the action. It's executing on action. Is that what you're saying? Yes, absolutely. In part one of my interview with Dr. St. Clair, several key insights were discussed regarding the challenges and strategies for enhancing performance, particularly in high-pressure environments. Dr. St. Clair highlighted how various mental distractions such as fears, negative self-talk, anxieties, doubts, and preoccupations with results and expectations, well, they can significantly hinder our performance. She called these derailers. She emphasized the importance of focusing on the task at hand rather than those distractions. According to Dr. Sinclair, the solution lies in developing a plan to shift focus away from these derailers and back onto the task, especially when we drift. As she so eloquently said, you gotta shift when you drift. And so what does this mean? Well, this involves knowing what obstacles are in the way, having a plan to reorient the mind towards a task, and then executing this plan when needed. It also touched upon the topic of self-talk, distinguishing between harmful positive self-talk that is unrealistic or irrelevant to the task, and beneficial negative self-talk that can provide valuable insights into the areas of improvement. Now, Dr. Sinclair outlined a method for becoming more self-aware, analyzing one's thoughts, actions, and self-dialogue during both successful and unsuccessful performance periods. Now, this introspection can reveal the nature of one's internal narrative and its impact on our performance. Now, furthermore, Dr. Sinclair introduced the concept of smart talk, a strategy for navigating pressure-filled moments. Now, smart talk involves grounding one's self in facts such as accomplishments and the positive feedback to counterbalance default negative self-talk. Now, by focusing on factual successes, individuals can talk themselves through challenging situations more effectively. And lastly, Dr. Sinclair discussed the notion of confidence, challenging the common belief in its importance for successful performance. She argued that confidence is unreliable and fluctuating factors that does not necessarily correlate with performance quality. Instead, performance should be based on actions and adherence to task-focused strategies. Rather than fluctuating feelings of confidence. Part one of the conversation, this whole segment of the interview underscores the complexity of psychological factors in performance. And Dana presents practical advice for managing them. So let's now slip back into the stream with part two of my brilliant conversation with Dr. Dana Sinclair. So that brings us to one of your other skills that you talk about. Performance cues. Performance cues. Thank you. Could you maybe elaborate on that? Yes, absolutely. So you, again, if you had to pick, well, I was going to say one skill, one skill is breathing. We'll get to that. The second most important skill in the moment is being able really to connect with the task at hand. Just one thing that you know if you do or keep doing, you'll be able to execute well. So, say, there's lots of sports examples, but we'll say, thinking about an interview, right? So, again, I talk about the big skill of performance cues, but it's sort of like what I tend to say is, you know, forget how you feel. It's all about what you do. That's the skill. So, getting on to what you're going to do. But say if you have an interview and you're nervous and you have a panel of people in front of you and what do you do? Do you worry about how you feel and how you are worried about blowing it and not getting your funding or whatever the result is or getting the promotion or getting the job? That's feel right. And you're going to get lost in either rambling or a poor answer or an unfocused performance. Whereas if you have one or two performance cues, what do I do to stay on task? You're in business. So things like, and I'm thinking of clients of mine, when they thought about, okay, just sit back, sit tall, look at the interviewers. That was something to do that helped calm them. That's a performance cue for them. That's a performance cue for them, yes. Got it. Or the performance cue could be telling themselves to listen to what the interviewer's question really is instead of jumping ahead. So those are types of things that are actual cues that draw you into the task. What do I need to do to perform well? I was giving a talk to baseball team major league team and talking about this very thing and on the way out I was walking down the hall with one of the coaches and he was a former major league player he was you know a batting champion and he said you know what I finally figured out after all these years why I was successful because I never thought I was going to be. I was small. I, you know, didn't think I'd ever make it anywhere. And I became, you know, two-time batting champion in the major leagues because I did the do. I could do the do. So what he meant was in the moment, in the batter's box, he could slow down and he could actually remind himself to do the one thing that he needed to do to get his bat out front and hit straight through the ball. So he had a performance of what to do in the moment. So here's the conundrums sometimes I see. I think your words there really, really hit home. You know, as you said, if it's an interview, focus on the interviewee, focus on the questions. Or what you need to say. It could be anything, but something to ask related. And so if someone says i get that logically i i completely get that and i've trained for it but i i know myself that when i'm in the heat of the moment dana emotions the emotions just riling me up and i i just can't focus i just get this sort of blind vision you know absolutely just to challenge you there how how does someone process the emotions how do they deal with the emotions if it they come percolating up and i can feel it my ears are getting warm i'm stressed yeah Yeah, exactly. Good point, because that's exactly what happens in our pressure moments. Again, now we're moving on to the other skills, that first skill, that practice. Is essential, I feel, is to slow down. Get calm or calm-ish and try to stay there. Breathe, settle, however you're going to do that. But even in the moment, taking one slow breath in through your nose, exhaling through your nose if you can, or through a straw, just take it down a notch. Very helpful then you can grab onto one of those cues of yours and talk your way through it like in the middle of an interview Dana settle down come on you can do this just what am I supposed to be saying again that's how you do it in fact I remember being in a situation like that I was doing my second PhD I needed funding it was at Cambridge it was very expensive I was in for an interview. I went in thinking, okay, there'll be two or three people there. Great. Okay, I can do this. And because it was very important that I get this funding. I was under pressure for sure. I walked in, there was a big boardroom. It was downtown London. And there was a dozen people around this table. I thought, I mean, oh my gosh, I thought I was going to tip over, fall off my chair. So I really struggled. I had to use that first few minutes to really pull myself together. Now, I would do a better job now, one, because of experience and because I actually use my own skills. But then I had to settle. I had to breathe. I had to talk my way through this. I had to tell myself, don't worry about how this comes off or if it's not very pretty, just get to, you know, your words, get to what you have to say, sell your project, you know, that type of thing. It was awful. And so obviously breathing is connected to our autonomic nervous system, the sympathetic, parasympathetic. What is your, I mean, there's a lot of different types of breath work out there. What is your default? What is the one you go to? And if you wish to share, could you maybe walk our listeners through it? Absolutely. I love my performers to have a five-second quick fix called, I call it, breathe it out. It's easy to do all these other breathing exercises before and whatnot. Great. But I need people to be able to calm down in the moment, like a linebacker trying to get off the line in the NFL or a quarterback, you know, dropping back in the pocket. He needs to pull it down quickly or in the huddle or any of us when we're in an interaction and you can feel conflict coming. So five seconds. I want people to think about just slowing it down. So shoulders down, sit up tall, breathe in through your nose, out through your nose if you can. But if not through like through a straw through your mouth because that automatically slows you down that's why it's you know out through your mouth through that straw slow it down exhale fully so slow nose exhale longer than normal and try to loosen those shoulders boom done, and so this is just one cycle of breath or is it as many as you can fit in or need to do But often, one practiced cycle, breath, can get you thinking clearly. I guess it definitely brings you into the here and now when you're focusing on your breath, you're at the presence, right? Yes. And you're doing something to help yourself and you're stopping the clutter from going crazy in your head. You're pulling your mind back from all those hot spots and distractions. You're shifting over onto something helpful, which is the breath. And then you can move on to any other skill that you find useful. And remember this is all planned out in terms of going into your event or your performance, so it's not like oh i've got to read you've actually taken a little bit of time to think about what to do when you feel it grabbing you and that breath is the first thing that really helps and you can do this kind of breathing without anybody noticing it's not like you have to go lie down or do big, you know, press, right? Just take it down a notch. Yeah. Hold on. Hold on interviewers. Hold on panel. Yeah. Okay. So we've talked about pre-performance. We've talked about performance. Now I'd like to shift the conversation if you don't mind to post-performance. I was wondering how important is self-evaluation in post-performance? Now, the reason I ask for this, I work with a number of corporations, a number of teams, and they get a project done, but there's really no time for celebration. They just hop on to the next one, and then the next one, and the next one. They talk a good talk saying, yeah, we should do a post-performance so we can improve our game. And sometimes they do it, but it's not a consistent practice. It's not a habitual part of their culture. I would like to get it straight from the professional's mouth. How important is self-evaluation or team evaluation in post-performance? I think it can be a game changer. I think checking in on yourself after performance, is critical if you want to be better. Why would you leave that to chance? You know, whether you're a person who always thinks you aced it and walked away and don't do anything, right? Or every time you perform, you know, you just have to get through it and you just want to leave it right and don't don't deal with it um mistake you got to check in with yourself, and my version of it is is simple and quick which is my version of how to perform under pressure anyway because who has time in the moment to go through all sorts of rigmarole we want to keep it simple and ready to grab in the moment but i think one i i get my clients uh to rate themselves Rate your performance out of 10. One from lousy to brilliant. Give yourself a number. And don't be too hard on yourself because most people will, you know, mark down. And I can always tell because, you know, they're kind of happy with the performance. Let's say, well, I was a six. Come on. You don't have to be at eight, nine, or ten. But let's be honest with yourself. Like, you're honest with yourself when you're lousy. So when you're good, be honest with yourself to give yourself a little bit of credit. Anyway, rate yourself. Then a quick, what did I do? Well, what, what went well? What was I good at today? Boom, boom, boom. And then conversely, what didn't go so well? What did I, well, I kind of blew that. Write it down. Then it's pretty clear. Okay, here's what I did well. Hey, here's what didn't go so well. I was a seven. I really want to be an eight next time. Okay, this is what I need to adjust. And not some long journal entry. It's got to be something short and meaningful. Whether it's task-related or how you're going to prepare. I have a client right now, a top-ranked athlete, who is trying to get a lot better at that and realized after the last competition, oh, my preparation wasn't so good. I really need to take a little bit more time and breathe a little bit more and run through my game plan and just go over my cues just a little bit, see them in my head, then I think I'm ready. Very useful. Very, very. Because, you know, what I hear is someone who, you know, these professionals that you work with, they have this ability. For more of our common folk, you know, when we fail, when we flop, when we don't succeed, we can be very harsh with self-critical thoughts. Like, I mean, what suggestions would you have for someone to show a little more self-compassion? And how does that show up nuts and bolts? You know, when someone makes a mistake, they flop and they feel foolish or they feel whatever, silly or stupid. What advice would you give them to learn from their mistakes, to learn from their follow-ups? Good question. First of all, even though I do work with a lot of very high performers, they feel the same way as everybody else. Everybody thinks, that's another myth, everybody thinks that they're high performers, it just comes by them naturally. They never worry about this stuff. They never think about this stuff. not at all they struggle with confidence they struggle with you know do i deserve this they they have all sorts of confidence crushers that get in the way too so they they're no different they just probably get a little bit more structured training in this zone how to do it fast. So everybody does feel it. You know, it does really start with, let's do an actual honest evaluation of that performance. People default to, oh, it's terrible, oh, it's bad. Well, why? Self-protection. Right? I need to have something, like if I, here's really how it works. If I want to perform well, I know if I do this and this, I'll probably be okay. I've done this before. This is my job, or I think I can do this. But when it gets to the pressure moment, people back off because I know if I just do these things, I'll be fine. But what if it doesn't work out? What if I actually do try and it doesn't work out oh my goodness then i have failed then it's on me i can't have that so people subconsciously throw some barriers in front of them excuses essentially as to, something they can grab onto if it doesn't go well. Do you see what i'm yeah yeah escape hatch yeah yeah absolutely and i like people to be really aware of that because we all do it until we start to check on ourselves. Ah, okay. Am I actually, am I wiggling away from this? Am I tinkering with this? What is really happening here? And it's, you know, people like to think too, oh, well, I know I really need help to figure it out because I don't know what's going wrong. I like to challenge people and say, well, you know what, If you sit with yourself for five minutes and really think about it, what gets in my way? Why didn't I do well that last time? What am I holding back? You know, in the privacy of your own brain or, right, or if you're reading my book and it's asking you these questions, right? We can usually figure it out for ourselves, those one or two things that really bug us that we're trying to avoid and we hold back from. Yeah, those derailers you spoke about earlier, right? Yes, yes. And it does take courage to try to be good and to try to be better. And being honest with yourself is the first step to being better. What are those derailers? What are those hotspots? And, you know, courage is just that. As we've heard, you know, a lot of times. It is facing our fears it's not showing up without any fears you might have fears or anxieties and such but that courage that's the learning curve i guess that's that's understanding breaking down as you've articulated what i've how i flopped how i failed whatever or how i'm going to yeah yeah welcome to we all fail we all fail where it's right and see people get caught up and oh it's got to be perfect i've got to be perfect and that's another thing that i i i challenge people on because that is such a script for self-defeat. It's not happening, people. Nobody is going to be perfect. You will not be perfect. So let's get off of that and go for something attainable, excellence, being really good, good enough. Then we can get rid of this huge derailer, which is perfection. When people drift to, I have to be perfect. I can't make a mistake. Holy smokes. They are no longer on task. They're no longer relaxed. They're no longer thinking in the moment about what to do. They are in trouble. No good. And that is, yes, as I say, one of the big faults that we have. I guess, fall into when we're trying to perform because it's that pressure. It's when you really want it. That's why we're getting the pressure. When we're relaxing, there's no, we don't care. We're fine. We're all good. Yeah, we're all good. So it's, it's just having some of those strategies ready to go pre-planned or when it hits you, I got to pull it together right now. I think that's very interesting because for me that kind of segues when we're talking about sort of post-performance and we're breaking down and what we can learn from it. That also brings me down to one of your fourth skills, the role of daydreaming or visualization. And you spoke, I'd like you to speak a little more about visualization because it's not just about visualizing something, but it can take on the whole senses. But you've also, I don't need to go through all five categories. Of course, people can read the book, but you have chill, skill, highlight, fight back, and step it up as five different skills. First of all, could you maybe operationally define for us, Dana, what you mean by the role of daydreaming or visualization? Absolutely. So it's visualization, imagery. I call it daydreaming because it connotes sort of smaller chunks. But really, visualization, I'm talking about mental rehearsal. Just practicing in your head, whether it's a new skill, whether it's calming down and being composed, seeing in your mind what you would like to happen, how you would like to behave, or how you have behaved in the past. That's essentially all I'm talking about. So we all daydream. I just like people to focus their daydream a little bit more to enhance their performance. And so visualization, because you had a very good example of a lemon, sort of cutting into a lemon and tasting the lemon and feeling the lemon. Or it was a very, it was very sensory based. And this is what I understood what you meant by visualization is like it's completely sort of visual. I mean, it's completely immersive how we can we can take something such as a lemon and involve all five senses in a sense. You can. And I usually use an example like that with somebody who will say to me, well, I can't visualize. I don't see anything. I'll start with, oh, okay. Because a lot of people will say that because they're fast-paced, they're busy, they don't relax well, so they don't daydream very well. But what I usually start with is, oh, okay, well, can you please, can you talk to me about your bedroom? Do you know what color are the walls uh where's your bed uh and they'll tell me and then i'll say okay can you stand in front of your door and can you put your hand on the knob and open the door and walk into that bedroom yeah oh well you just did visualization you felt something you you could have heard something, you saw it. So, you know, you can add any of your senses in there. Now, I don't necessarily care if somebody uses all their senses. I do want them to see it, because if they can see it from the first person view, like, you know, see that bedroom out in front of you, not like it's on video view, but see it in front of you, your hand out, etc. That helps you feel. That gives you a little more kinesthetic sense if you see it from behind your own eyes. But again, I just want people to get a picture or get a feel for what they want to behave like or to be like. So using visualization or imagery in post-performance can help us pre-performance for the next event or what have you. Absolutely. Visualization itself, does that create a sense of certainty within the brain that they've stepped into it, they know what to do? And so, again, those actions will lead to the mood of confidence or have I misconstrued it? No, it can lead to the mood of confidence. And if that's what people get from it, that's great. I want it to lead to the do, what you're going to do, not the feel so much. Use it for feel, for sure. Hey, a highlight. I last did that and I felt great, wonderful. I think it's great for building skills. I've been involved in research projects, the university here, University of Toronto and teaching surgical residents visualization and helping them mentally practice, prepare for a new operation, a new procedure. And what we found, those who had done some training in visualization, I didn't call it daydreaming, but imagery, they did a better job in terms of performance, and they were less stressed. So we're now thinking that visualization can be a really great tool. Mental practice can be a great tool for residents becoming skilled quicker and it's great for safety in terms of. Operations and procedures right if you're better at it going into it the training is easier better outcomes so the visualization obvious i'm not obviously but the visualization is is complementary to the actual physically of doing but if i may just practice without performing practice without i like that that's that's a really good way of saying it so this practice without performing for someone to become a little more adept how often would someone have to visualize something sort of to become adept or find that sense of certainty about moving into a certain performance whatever that may show however it shows up how i usually talk about it to my clients, is okay you do not have to sit down here for an hour a day and do this. You're not going to be able to do it anyway it's going to be very onerous i love short clips, short little video clips so a video clip could be five seconds it could be 10 seconds it could be two minutes i'm talking that short just to put yourself in the situation you're thinking about and see yourself run through the behaviors so go for 30 seconds uh you know what i back it off, do it for 10 seconds three times a day while you're walking to the fridge while you're getting in the car where you're just sitting there waiting do it three times a day and, be concise with it that will make a difference you can take two days off a week but especially if you're going into event if you're preparing for an event say you're preparing for a presentation, and you want to see yourself being calm and composed, interacting with the audience, being clear and loud with your voice, you can do that in 10 seconds. You can close your eyes or not. If you find it's difficult to get an image, take a moment and do a breathing exercise first. Calm down, get the tension down. That will enhance the picture that comes in your head. You'll be able to be more clear in your head. So I say do that. I've got certainly a lot of Olympic athletes that do that regularly. But you know again you don't have to do it for half an hour a day just infuse it into your day in and out something calm and easy that's what to me works because people will do that, it's that's not daunting that's actually fun to do see your successes see your highlights start with that then it's easy to think okay how am I going to fix this how am I going to answer that question. So when you're working with these athletes, is it something you try to get them, whether it's the breathing, whether it's the smart talk, whether it's the daydreaming or these bites, these visual bites, is it something you try to get them to habitually practice so it just becomes part of their routine? It becomes part of their default for preparing for performance? That I like that you asked that because I actually don't get them to do it habitually all the time I love it when people find something I like to expose them to all these things and sort of the process of how to do it now you pick your own what works for you what do you like because a lot of it for anybody is going to be automatic I want people to zone in on their tough moments the tough spots Things that, you know, ooh, I've got to be ready for when that question is asked or, you know, when my slides go, you know, I can't find the right slide, whatever it is. So I want people to be ready, but I don't expect them or even want them to think they have to do this, you know, for a chunk of time every day. But I do like them to think about infusing bits and pieces into their training, into their practice, into their preparation, for sure. But it doesn't overtake anything. It's just... Having something in their back pocket to coach themselves to when they need it and again you have to have a plan to be able to do that and it should fit on a post-it note i don't want anything long i want something short and concise something to think about before the event maybe a daydream that helps you that makes you feel calm and comfortable go over your performance cues so you've got those in your head and have two performance cues, say, picked out for if it really does go sideways and you are starting to, you know, you walk into those 12 interviewers, what am I going to do? How am I going to behave? What am I going to say to myself? Have those ready to go? Off you go. No, I really like that idea because, I mean, as you said, as a PhD going into London, you know, looking for funds, you know, and you have 12 suits there. And and but having that i didn't expect it you see i didn't expect it i wasn't ready no no but i guess that is to for the unknown for the uncertain you know it's to default to dials in your your book or your recommendations dana having a small post-it note because that's easy you could just stick it there in front of the table as you're about to give a presentation or you're about to give a talk or whatever it is or have a hard discussion with someone, but because i really like that because what it does because emotionally we might get sucked into the vortex of that the intensity of the moment but when i look at that post-it note it becomes a physical reminder checking with yourself dial in sorry dial in jason you know become self-aware show self-compassion focus on the action that's what i hear, Yes. And you know, your question earlier about self-compassion, this is all about like this process and what we're talking about is all about nourishing your mental health, your mental wellness. If you can identify what gets in the way and have a, a better route out or how to, a way to manage it, you're going to do a better job. You're going to feel more satisfied. It is one of the best ways to stay on top of your mental health. Cause if you feel good about what you're doing or better, that's a great way to feel nourished and deal with your wellness as opposed to just, oh, here we go again. I hope it works. That's no good. Shot in the dark, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, with that, with that post-it note plan, it really helps because even if you don't have the opportunity to have it in front of you, if you've taken the time to write it down, okay, you see it. It's a lot easier to remember. And then in that moment you think, oh, what's on that page. It's on that little note. You can go right to the highlights. Brilliant. I like that. I have a couple last questions for you. I'm very respectful of your time, Dana. I was just wondering, the book has launched in January 2024, and you've written it, and I guess it takes a year or 15 months to put something like this project together and such. Is there anything you wish you could include now, now that you've had some time to reflect on the book and the whole sojourn of getting it out there and seeing it in the bookshelves and such and thinking, oh, damn, I wish I had included that. No, but what I really want to do and what this process allowed me to start thinking about is how do I now put this together so that young people in schools, adolescents, kids can get this information early. I want young kids to have this. I want them to know how to manage their pressure moments early. Because again, we can all look back and think when you're 10, 12, 15, we all had pressure moments. And wouldn't it be nice to know how to handle that teacher, that coach, that student, that exam, that tryout? Wouldn't it be nice to at least have a way to deal with emotions, anger, upset, sadness? It would be nice to have something to actually do to help us along the way again you know i think that's not everything but it's a help no no but i think that's a very interesting insight you know considering the kids that were in the lockdown for two years in those special social though that time when they need to socialize to build confidence confidence what have you well no i get it it's you're right confident feeling good about themselves yeah and almost it's almost like taking what you've written in that book that is towards working professionals and athletes and such, but you can almost see it becoming, you know, written in a different way, but with the same con with the same material in it as a manual for school kids, you know, to find, you know, to find that sense of equanimity, to find that sense of resilience, to buffer themselves. You know, to show up thinking, you know, okay, so what? Who cares? You know, to move through things, to have a little more of a thicker skin. That's just my personal insight when you mention that. I love it. No, it's very true because I really want, it sounds like you feel the same. I want people to be able to coach themselves, count on themselves, rely on themselves, not always sort of push the bad feelings or the concerns outward. No, we've all got some inner resilience, some more than others, but we can all deal with the anxieties a little bit better. That's what I'd love to see. I think that's a brilliant place to end this conversation. It's been a fascinating conversation. My last question to you is, is there anything else you would like to live with our listeners today, Dana? Yes. Learn to shift when you drift. Learn how to do it quickly. It doesn't take long. You can do it. Give it a go. Pick one skill out of the four and try it. You'll be happy well dr dana sinclair thank you very much dana thank you very much for being on the show um i will make sure the dialed in and all the links to this brilliant book and i highly recommend i i don't dog your pdf files but i definitely did highlight them so i'd highly I love that. Thank you. I appreciate it, Jason. That's very good of you. You're welcome. Well, folks, that was the fantastic Dr. Dana Sinclair, the author of Dialed In, Do Your Best When It Matters Most. We learned today that peak performance isn't about eliminating pressure. It's about shifting your focus. Remember Dr. Sinclair's advice, smart talk isn't just fluffy positivity. It's talk that's rooted in facts and past accomplishments. So the next time you kind of find self-doubt creeping in, anchor yourself with your own success stories and performance cues. Like a simple focused breathing technique. I think one of the biggest takeaways is the power of post-performance evaluation. So don't just move on. Take a moment to assess your strengths, know your weaknesses, and use that self-awareness to build your strategy for the future. As Dr. Sinclair showed us, growth is a continuous loop built on self-compassion and intentional actions. If you're interested in learning more about Dr. Sinclair's work, I will leave all her links in the show notes. And if this episode helped you reframe a challenge or a quiet self-critical voice please share it with a friend who needs to hear it so thank you for tuning in to it's an inside job and until next time keep doing that inner work and remember the greatest leverage you have is within you so until next time keep well keep strong and we'll speak soon.