Sales. Just the word can have some Foodpreneurs running to find the closest table to hide under. But what if the way you thought about selling your product was based on preconceived ideas, and by reframing how you think and feel about the sales process would instead fill you with confidence and make you feel more empowered and at ease in your next buyer meeting or when calling or emailing a buyer for the first time
That’s exactly what I go through with Mia Van Tubbergh, the Sales Partner from Elm Professional, a professional services firm that partners with food, retail and FMCG clients. The hard truth is that you need to ‘sell’ to have a successful business. The other truth though is that there is a way to sell by ‘adding value’ that will completely change the way you think, and what you do when it comes to your sales process.
I chat with Mia about how ‘adding value’ must be a part of your sales strategy and what that looks like, including:
💸 What WIFIM is and why it’s important when pitching to buyers.
💸 Why having a great-tasting, great-looking product is the minimum and what else you need to ‘sell’.
💸 Why talking margin and sell-through are essential in adding value.
💸 What you need to know so you’re confident when meeting with buyers to ease the sales conversation.
💸 Learning the trick of art of listening more and talking less.
LINKS & RESOURCES
If you haven’t listened to episode 65 (49 mins), “Building a Million Dollar Brand in an Overcrowded Space” listen here.
This episode is brought to you by Foodpreneurs Festival, bringing packaged food & drink brand owners, retail buyers, media & industry experts together under one roof.
Foodpreneurs Festival on May 17 in Sydney, includes a packed schedule of events, including:
Whether you’re new to the food and drink industry, or a seasoned Foodpreneur, get ready for an epic celebration of all things food and drink at the 2024 Festival!
But that’s not all! In an opportunity that’s 64 times bigger than last year, Foodpreneurs Festival is hosting a thrilling event for packaged food & drink brand owners to take their shot* at coming face-to-face with retail buyers and getting their products listed on retail shelves.
Tickets are now on sale via Eventbrite until sold out.
* Terms & conditions apply. See website for the details.
Sales. Just the word can have some Foodpreneurs running to find the closest table to hide under. But what if the way you thought about selling your product was based on preconceived ideas, and by reframing how you think and feel about the sales process would instead fill you with confidence and make you feel more empowered and at ease in your next buyer meeting or when calling or emailing a buyer for the first time
That’s exactly what I go through with Mia Van Tubbergh, the Sales Partner from Elm Professional, a professional services firm that partners with food, retail and FMCG clients. The hard truth is that you need to ‘sell’ to have a successful business. The other truth though is that there is a way to sell by ‘adding value’ that will completely change the way you think, and what you do when it comes to your sales process.
I chat with Mia about how ‘adding value’ must be a part of your sales strategy and what that looks like, including:
💸 What WIFIM is and why it’s important when pitching to buyers.
💸 Why having a great-tasting, great-looking product is the minimum and what else you need to ‘sell’.
💸 Why talking margin and sell-through are essential in adding value.
💸 What you need to know so you’re confident when meeting with buyers to ease the sales conversation.
💸 Learning the trick of art of listening more and talking less.
LINKS & RESOURCES
If you haven’t listened to episode 65 (49 mins), “Building a Million Dollar Brand in an Overcrowded Space” listen here.
This episode is brought to you by Foodpreneurs Festival, bringing packaged food & drink brand owners, retail buyers, media & industry experts together under one roof.
Foodpreneurs Festival on May 17 in Sydney, includes a packed schedule of events, including:
Whether you’re new to the food and drink industry, or a seasoned Foodpreneur, get ready for an epic celebration of all things food and drink at the 2024 Festival!
But that’s not all! In an opportunity that’s 64 times bigger than last year, Foodpreneurs Festival is hosting a thrilling event for packaged food & drink brand owners to take their shot* at coming face-to-face with retail buyers and getting their products listed on retail shelves.
Tickets are now on sale via Eventbrite until sold out.
* Terms & conditions apply. See website for the details.
This is the Foodpreneur with Chelsea Ford podcast. Welcome foodpreneur to episode number 66. Today I'm speaking with Mia Van Tubbergh, the Sales Partner from Elm Professional, a professional services firm that partners with food, retail and FMCG clients. Sales is the number one challenge I know most foodpreneurs have. You don't wanna sound salesy, but eventually most foodpreneurs realize they're in the sales game if you wanna scale. So you need to figure out how to do it. I asked Mia a kindred spirit to help me help you feel more at ease with selling. So you can learn the tips and tricks such as the art of listening more and talking less, or batching your sales prospecting just as you would your production. These are some of the simple keys to successful salesmanship. According to Mia, a well trained salesperson will be more engaged and motivated.
You'll hear her passion and likability as we chat and laugh our way through this episode. This episode is brought to you by Foodpreneurs Festival, the epic celebration of all things sales and promotion. For those new or seasoned packaged food and drink brand owners and industry experts. Food's Festival is an event taking place in Sydney on 19 may. Don't miss this one time only opportunity to do all your sales meetings in one day under the One Roof Food's Festival will save you time and money because at the Festival HQ, we know no one has the resources to be traversing the country. Scrolling through Facebook pages or hoping trade shows will be their one-stop shop for sales domination because they won't be. So we've created a festival that provides you with the perfect opportunity to work on your business by doing a year's worth of sales and promotion with all the right industry people in the one place.
Hi, I'm Chelsea Ford, former industry sales director, award-winning food and drink business expert, head coach of the acclaimed coaching program for Women Foodpreneurs Formula. And your host for this, the Foodpreneur podcast. If you're a packaged food and drink brand owner, tune in with me each week and walk away knowing how to land more accounts, how to get your product into more consumer's hands, and how to price correctly for wholesale, with or without distributors. In each episode, I'm going to tap into my three decades of experience leading sales, marketing, and money teams for big and small food and drink brands to give you coaching tips that will help you take your business to new heights without the overwhelm, I know what works and I know what doesn't. So I'm going to share with you industry tools and insider knowledge that are next to impossible for small businesses to access.
And I'll dive into my little black book to bring you interviews with hard-to-reach industry specialists, experienced foodpreneurs, and wholesale buyers who will help you solve those pesky industry specific problems like distribution that I know you've been losing. Way too much sleepover. So roll up your sleeves, foodpreneurs because you are about to enter a no fluff zone. I'm bringing my A game so you can reach yours no matter where you are, whether it's in your kitchen, coordinating your deliveries, or on your way to a buyer meeting. Listen up because we're about to set the path for you to secure your next best stockers, increase your sales and live life on your terms. This is the Foodpreneur with Chelsea Ford podcast. Mia Van Tubbergh. I am so excited to have you on the show today. I feel like such a kindred spirit with you. Tell the audience who you are, the company you are from, and who you serve.
Thank you Chelsea. I'm excited to be here. I mean, you are just amazing in what you do, so I'm absolutely honored. So yes, my name is Mia Van Tubbergh from Elm Professional. Been in sales for over 25 years which is no mean feat, but my family would probably argue. I've been in sales since I was about six years old. So if you ever do see me anywhere and you wanna find out about that story, make sure to to ask me. But what I do is I work with people to rephrase the sales conversation because the sales conversation doesn't make many of us feel very uncomfortable. We identify as the sleazy secondhand salesperson or you know, the telco guy that phones you in the middle of dinnertime, right? And what I'm wanting to do is I wanna make sure that people embrace this conversation, they feel comfortable with it, and they view themselves as adding value instead of sellec. Currently our sweet spot, our zone of genius, which I like to call it, is working with B entrepreneurs, making sure that when they do have these valuable conversations, they're having the right conversation. They're not giving away the farm, they're not making mistakes and they're putting themselves in a real great position to win. And then when they're in store, making sure to support that so that they get the sales through the door. Cause just because you're on shelf does not mean you are gonna become a go off shelf, so to speak.
People do, especially product-based people in our world, foodpreneurs, they feel fearful about sales and they do not want to. Like I often get told, oh, Chelsea, I don't wanna sound salesy. So for you and I, Mia you know, we've grown up and we're as salespeople forever. Me maybe a bit longer than you've given <laugh>, given my gray hairs, maybe
A couple of days, right?
<Laugh>. But nonetheless, I don't find sales so scary and I, I know that many people don't share that. Share that view. What do you say about with foodpreneurs and selling and how they can go about it?
Well, up and well actually not up and slow. Recently, there's two professions in the world where you cannot get a degree where there's no advanced learning. The first one, which is arguably the longest profession in the world, has recently become legalized <laugh>. But is still frowned upon. And the second one is sales, right? So there's nowhere that you can go to learn how to sell. So all you are left with is the preconceived notion of what you've been exposed to. So if you had a bad experience with somebody at a, let's go back to the telco, who made you feel very uncomfortable, you've now associated sales with that environment. So if you've bought a vehicle and you didn't like the car salesman, or if you didn't like the real estate agent, these are what you then associate with selling. It's all the negative that you bring with selling.
So I say to people when I start working with them, let's just pick up the word sales. Let's have a good look at it, then let's just put it in a ball throat in the bin. Let's never talk sales again. But if I was to say to you, tell me how you add value. Explain to me how you going to improve what it is you do, how comfortable are you now? And then they'll just go, they will sit and they'll talk to me for hours if I let them. And then I sit back and I'll take a deep breath and I smile and I say, well, what you've done now is you've actually had a sales conversation. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it's a little bit messy, it's a little bit dirty, we need to tidy it up. But guess what? You've just had a sales conversation. Cause at the end of the day, guess what? We're all in sales. That's what we are off. We're conditioned to be in sales. If you think about you know, when you were a baby, if you wanted something, you would just scream and everyone came running. I mean, that's selling, right? You were selling that you had a need, <laugh> I'm saying
Running, right?
Or, or what about your, you know, your five year old when they wanted you to run a big bubble bar and they come running in there, give you this huge big coke and they're jumping up and down. That's selling. Mm-Hmm. Right? Or the teenager, this is my favorite cuz I've got a 14 year old, right? And all of a sudden I see just a couple of weekends ago, he gets out into the garden into the shed and he's got the lawn mo and the whipper snipper didn't have to ask him. I knew what was coming. He wanted money. Mm. Right? What at the end of the day, that's just selling. So we are conditioned to sell. We were born to sell, but we don't realize we we're doing it every day. Mm. Because we've got this preconceived notion. And the worst thing just on that point is we shouldn't let our biases get involved. Just because we didn't like the fact that somebody phoned us in the middle of dinnertime does not mean you cannot pick up the phone in the middle of the day, in the middle of a work day when someone's actually doing their job and pick up a phone and have a conversation. Just be careful not to confuse your biases with the sales process.
That is so interesting because I'm working with the client at the moment and we're talking marketing and sales of course is part of marketing and marketing needs to lead sales not the other way around, which I think so many brand owners get confused by. But I think this little story that I've got is worth it. They were, we were talking about edms, you know, sending out newsletters that old chestnut, and of course it came up from the production people. I wouldn't wanna annoy anybody. And that is something that you and I would hear often from our clients around selling. I don't wanna be an irritant, I don't wanna be annoying. But the truth is, is it not? That if you have something of value that you are giving to somebody, then it's not salesy. It's not irritating, then people then have a choice whether or not they're looking for that information. So I love when you talk about value add, and I wonder if we could just unpack that a little bit because for a lot of brand owners, particularly those who are so f product focused, which so most are adding value beyond just making a delicious product, is a little bit baffling. So can you say more about what you mean about just add value?
Yeah. So I'm going to apologize and advise while I insult everybody. So please my humblest apologies and don't take it the wrong way, cuz I promise I will dig myself out of the hole. I'm about to dig myself into <laugh>.
Go for it.
So we believe that the value we bring is that we have the tastiest product, the healthiest product the best looking product. Guess what? <Laugh>, that's kind of the minimum expectation, right? When you're pro promoting a product or, or you are talking to a buyer, you're not going into the buyer to say, do you know what? I have picker products. I don't know, let's go with popcorn for example. I have the best tasting popcorn you are ever gonna taste and it looks amazing. And the buyer's sitting there going, yeah, well you're not gonna come in here and offer me really crap popcorn. Now are you? Of course you've got the best. What else have you got? Right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So the very first thing you know you need to understand is there is a basic standard. So just to give you like a really easy example, and you and I spoke about this.
When you go look for a bookkeeper or an accountant and they say, I'm really good at balancing your books. You're like, well I isn't that what I'm paying you to do is to balance my books? That's the minimum expectation I have of you. Yes. What else do you have to offer? So going back to your product, the minimum expectation is you've got a great tasting product that sits well on shelf. That's the minimum expectation. You don't need to have that conversation with the buyer. The next part of the conversation is now the ad the value added. Why, why am I going to, or the whole So what theory, so what? So what? Your product tastes great, so what, Hmm? Well, yes, it does taste great, but the experience that our product is bringing into families allows them to do the following. We are not just selling a popcorn, we're actually selling an experience.
How amazing is it for you if you were to sit down with your family watching a movie? Because let's be honest, going to the cinema is so expensive now. And to be able to bring them a popcorn that's actually popped in a box, now the family is sitting together with the real cinema experience and you're not having to fight your teenager to stop watching the YouTube short of 30 seconds and sit and engage in a movie that's like 90 minutes because they're enjoying the popcorn and the experiences there. That's what we're selling, right? And it's the value add. The so what, so what? Your product tastes great, tell me why I wanna buy it. So what, your product looks good, why do I wanna put it on a consumer shelf? And that's where you actually have to delve in.
I also thi love the acronym with them. W i f i,
It's my favorite, my my favorite radio station
<Laugh>, what's in it for me and me being the buyer. So I think it would be really helpful for you and I now though just to, for those who might be really new to selling into wholesale, particularly into retail buyers, if we just define that there is, there are some exceptions to this sell and experience. The so what, because I think if, if you are selling to a very small specialty retailer, they're probably more, and I'm using, this is a generalization, but it's based on heaps of experience that if they're super small, they're gonna be more interested in the taste than somebody who is mid to large. Correct? But I also wouldn't emphasize the taste ad nauseum. Right? So what's your take on that Mia?
So yes, W Wif, f m our favorite radio station. What's in it for me? <Laugh>? So when you're talking to a buyer or you're talking to
You crack me up,
<Laugh> store owner or even if you're talking to a consumer, you need to answer that question. What's in it for them? Because as much as we like to think we are loving, caring people and we care about everybody else in the world, at the end of the day that's gonna benefit me, what's it gonna make me look like? Right? I'll I'll give you an example, right? So many years ago I needed to buy, you know, headsets and what have you. And I did some research, I found this microphone and I bought the microphone and it turned out to be just shock, but it only cost me maybe a hundred dollars and I threw it in the cupboard and I didn't tell anybody because people were saying to me at the time, get this other brain, get this other brain. And I'm like, no, dunno.
Reset this brain. It's great, right? I didn't tell anybody about it because it was my ego. My ego got in the way and I made the wrong decision. So at the end of the day, what we are trying to do is we are trying to understand that we're preserving people's egos. We can also chance that we don't have an ego and that's okay, but people wanna look good. So when you start talking to store owners, you need to make sure that they look good at the end of the day. So what does looking good look like for them? You're providing them, of course the great tasting, good looking product. Yep. That's the, the basic standard. It's going to make enough GP for them. They need to make their margin, right? So make sure you bucket in the fact that they're going to make margin because they're going to potentially pull another product off the shelf to put your product on and they're not gonna sacrifice margin.
It needs to have a good sell-through. So you better make sure, to your point about marketing Chelsea, you better make sure that you are doing whatever you can to promote that product. Make sure it's getting into people's feeds, make sure people are aware of the products, et cetera, et cetera, so that it has a sales room. Because at the end of the day, while a buyer is thinking of the broader picture and they do wanna make sure that the consumer is going to get what they want out of their product, they've gotta look good. So if you protect their ego and you come to them with a really great product that's gonna make their money and that's gonna sell through, guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna go, yep, I'm done. Give it to me. Let's do this.
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
So
I think we, sorry Mia. I was just gonna say, I think if we use a brand that's absolutely universal, and most of my audience will turn their nose up at it, but I'm gonna use it anyway. Coca-Cola, the reason why Coca-Cola is in virtually every single supermarket, every stadia served at, you know, umpteen functions, whatever, every aspect, every sub sales channel across the f and b market, it's cuz people want it. So it's makes the the buyer look good because they want it. I'm not gonna enter the argument of Pepsi versus Coca-Cola. No, I'm just illustrating my point. So whilst we don't necessarily wanna be Coca-Colas in the challenger brand world, who are my audience and who I love and hold dearly, it is a very easy brand to consider emulating on that way because they've built such a strong brand, strong brand tone of voice, and they have distribution and people demand it. So why would a buyer not bring it in a
Hundred, a hundred percent. And it goes through again to, to how it's going to benefit that buyer and how it's going to be benefit the store. So you're right, WIF, f m what's in it for me? <Laugh>? Tick it, tick, tick the box. If you can tick the box, then you're good to go. So I think what we've learned so far is make sure that you're not just meeting the minimum standard, which is great product, great taste make sure that you're having a valuable conversation. And I don't want you to hide away from the fact you're having a sales conversation. You're absolutely having a sales conversation here. But if you're uncomfortable with the word sales, throw it out the window and realize that you're having a conversation that's going to add value and make sure that didn't even sound right, but make sure you are adding value in the conversation because at the very least you will engage your buyer if you are ticking those two boxes right there and there.
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I guess that's why trade shows are so often good because people feel like their guards down because you know why you're there. It's the circumstances when you're dropping into a retailer or trying to get the pitch time slot that foodpreneurs often feel very uncomfortable cause it's that constant. And often you're being ghosted. Have you got, have you got a comment that you can share about being ghosted and what you do and what you advise your client?
Well, I mean, clients, I love rejection <laugh>. I mean, I just go through to my teenage years, my early twenties, I was rejected that often. <Laugh>,
<Laugh>,
I'd like to think that I was never rejected. But rejection is a part of life, right? We get rejected in our dating world. We get rejected in an argument with our loved one. I mean, like, I've got a teenager, I've said that before, right? The rejection to you from a teenager, it's just freaking amazing. <Laugh> catches you underwear, right? Rejection is a real part of life. But for some reason we get so emotionally attacked. Well, not for some reason we know we do. We're so emotionally attached to our product. It's like somebody saying, you've got an ugly baby. Yeah. You can't actually deal with that rejection. So what we need to understand is that you personally are not being rejected and your product is not being rejected. A couple of things have happened here. The first thing is you walked in and you sold the absolute minimum of your product.
It tastes good and looked good. That's it. That, that's not enough. The second thing that could have happened is you didn't get, give the buyer the information they needed to know. In other words, you could have spoken about adding value, but this, there was something missing from the conversation. So the great thing about rejection is you get to say to the buyer, you know, I appreciate that. You're not gonna arrange me absolutely accept that. Could you tell me what was missing? What did I not give you in order for you to arrange that product? Because in the next conversation you have, you're absolutely gonna include that. The third one, this is arguably the one many brands short. And this is the one you can tomorrow without uncomfortable at all. Do your research into go into store. You didn't go look at what the looked like, you didn't speak to the store manager and ask them what the three rates is and what the minimum requirement was for that store.
So for example canned for example, in Woolworths, the minimum expectation could be to go sell 60 units a week, right? And you come in with a higher value product and you might only hit six units if you're lucky that you haven't done your homework. So by not doing your homework, you could even be speaking to the wrong buyer. And then the other option is that the buyer's just not ready to arrange it. There hasn't been enough noise about the product. It could be a brand new product or and this is a big one, the product's been done to death. You were too late to market. So for example, hate Cause it's one of my favorite products is kombucha. My son makes me go to the farmer's market cause he loves a commercial that's at the farmer's market. Don't go to ABA at the moment because they're gonna knock you down. In fact, they're gonna ghost you straight away because the market is completely saturated. So those are some of the reasons you're going to be rejected. Some of them are outta your control. But if you look at it deeply, you'll realize that louder was an attack on you. And actually none of what was outta your control. We stuck up the conversation somewhere along the line or we didn't do our research. So be prepared.
How do people do their research
Going into stores? So for example, if you're gonna go see a, you got a arranging conversation, for example, with Kohls, you are going to go into Kohl's stores. Now you're not just gonna go into the Kohl store that's down the road from you, which you know, like the back of your hand, right? Yes. <Laugh>, you're going to understand my product is going to, you know, is attracting a premium price. For example, I need to go visit Kohls stores where I can do some research and understand what is the demographic of that area, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> is that the clientele that I'm looking for and I need to go see what's currently on shelf in that area. I then need to go to other stores that may not be the right area. Right? So for example, I live up in the central coast. So you wouldn't have what's ranged in the coals here in Gosford as Kohls in, I don't know, the Eastern suburb somewhere. It's
Kings Cross.
Yeah. Kings Cross, right? It's two very different demographics. So you need to make sure that you are taking the time to go and visit different stores and understand what different stores are doing. Because when you walk in and you have that conversation, you are now well aware of where you wanna be placed. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you are well aware of what space you wanna be on. You have walked those aisles. Do you know exactly who your competitor is? You know exactly what their passport is. You know exactly what they go on promotion for. You know enough. And you've done your research and you've done your homework and you've taken the time to speak to the store manager mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and ask them some questions. They'll answer you if you just politely ask them a couple of questions and let them know why you're there.
Yeah. You know, the, the ability to ask good questions is, I've discovered over the years, cause I'm a massive question asker. Maybe that's why I'm now podcast host, but is eludes a lot of people. And what I see the problem with so many foodpreneurs is with their question asking ability is that they don't articulate a question that's clear enough to elicit a response. That's helpful. And you see it on social media all the time out, you know, just across the board outside of our industry where people are saying things like, say in those community groups and, and they are actually asking a question, but you have no idea how to respond to them. They're not clear. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So a really simple, a example of that is I'm in this group that where there's about 170,000 women. So it's like massively very successful group.
And somebody said the other day, are there any events in Sydney? I'm based in Melbourne and I'm looking for events in, she might have said business events in Sydney. So I went back to her. First of all I'll be completely transparent about my judgment, I thought at the time, well, of course, I mean Sydney is a major, a major city, a global city at that. And second of all, I just said to her to be really supportive. Is there a particular vertical that you are looking to do business in? You know, is it food, is it fashion? Is it automotive? Whatever, because it narrows it down. And so whilst being asking a super narrow question is often maybe not helpful depending on the situation. But to start with a broader question of I am looking for events in Sydney, in the food and drink industry, probably elicit a better answer than I'm just looking for business events in Sydney, for example.
So I would've thought if you're going into a Kohl's store and you're looking to ask about your category to a store manager and you don't have a relationship with that store manager, it would be you know, things along the lines of, you know, what's the average sales units a week? You know, <inaudible> velocity. If, if that was a bit too hardcore too soon, it might just be, do you typically range this category next to this category for this reason? You know, just have some sort of information with embedded in your question, which is your point, Mia, I think around just come to the table having insight around OB from your observations. Mm-Hmm. And also in a point
We'll just ask the question. You, you're allowed to not know the No, not know the question you're asking. Yeah. So you can go up to a store manager and say, look, you know, I was wondering if you could help me. I'm doing X, Y, Z and I just wanted to find out a little bit about, you know, where that product would fit a little bit more information. That could be the first conversation you've ever had because the next store you go into, you would have learned something around the category you should be in and you would've learned something maybe about a rate of sale. So the next store you go into, you could say, you know, Hey, I wonder if you could help me. I'm looking at creating a product to put into Kohl's. It'll fall in the snack foods, for example. And I'm hoping to hit the rate of sale of X, y, and Z.
Could you tell me a little bit about how your store operates? So ask questions to get more information. But what I also find when it comes to question asking is people don't shut up. So I'll ask you a question and before you can even answer me, I'm just b blabbing on, right? We need to just learn that a, you know, there's punctuation for a reason. The minute I've asked a question and I put a question mark at the end of it, just shut up. Give the person an opportunity to now answer the question you've asked and ask one question. Because what I find is, and I actually say to people now, and I don't care what they think of me you know, they'll, they'll ask you a question and then there'll be like a machine attack and they'll ask you like 17 questions, <laugh>. And I finally, when they finished, I go, well, that was a lot of questions and I'm gonna be honest with you. I can only remember the first one. So out of all those questions, which one would you like me to answer? And they go, oh what was the first one asked? I'm like, great <laugh>, we're both in trouble now. So ask one question at a time. Let that one be answered. Then the next question from that. So know what that very first question's gonna be. Mm-Hmm.
<Affirmative>, it takes confidence and patience. I think often it's I that I think that multiple question asking and maybe over talking when people are responding, I've observed over the years is often from a place of somebody feeling uncomfortable in their own skin and not able to just take ground, you know, hold their space, hold their self with it. So when we come back from a break, Mia, quick break. I wanna talk about that comment you made around don't take it personally or something along those lines, because I see that a lot that people, particularly product people, they take any feedback and being ghosted can be feedback in itself. <Laugh> Yeah. <Laugh>. As a personal affront. So you good with that?
Yeah. Perfect.
Foodpreneurs Festival a year's worth of value in one day. Whether you are new to the food and drink industry or a seasoned foodpreneur, get ready for an epic celebration of all things food and drink at Foodpreneurs Festival 2023, the full Day Everyone is Welcome Festival on May 19 in Sydney includes a packed schedule of events including notetaking worthy talks, expert panel discussions, networking and collaboration opportunities, business building workshops with industry experts, exciting exhibits of the latest and greatest food and drink products, including yours, plus loads more to help foodpreneurs get their products on retail shelves, land in more consumer baskets and put more money in their pockets. We invite you to get glued to a seat and soak up all that. Our pain savings speakers and industry experts have to share or put yourself and your product in the spotlight at one of our promotion zones.
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Mia, we're back. Thanks so much for the first half. You are an awesome guest. Now, one of the things that you said prior to going on a break was about talking to, you know, doing your research. And we were talking about when a brand is rejected and not taking things personally. And I was just recalling in my mind's eye about you know, when you are rejected by or you have an unrequited love and you really, you learn as you get older that okay, there's great feedback that you can maybe take from it. But to be honest, if you take on rejection every single time in your life as there's something wrong with you fundamentally, and you have to turn yourself inside out to be a different person you know, you'll probably never partner up with somebody and it can be really debilitating. <Laugh> <laugh>. So I kind of think along the same lines, give or take as a brand owner that there's, you've gotta have a degree of discernment and a filtration process of some things are gonna be relevant that you do really need to change. And there's other things you just gotta let it like water off a duck's back. So I'm curious about if you could talk about rejection and depersonalizing it.
Yeah, you have to disassociate sometimes because the, the reality is, is that a lot of the time the rejection is not okay. We're not talking about dates you, right? Cause that's a very personal, you are rejected. We're talking about a product or a service that's being rejected, not you as a human being. The challenge we have though, with the physiology breakup of our brain and the way the body works is that our brain does not associate a physical threat and a social threat threats any differently. What do I mean by that? When I'm walking down the road and I'm about across the road and I almost get hit by a car, my body kind of like, oh my God, I'm gonna die and I jump back, right? And then I've got all this adrenaline running through me because I've had a near death experience. The brain has not evolved enough to understand that if I reject you or I reject your bright product, it's not evolved enough to go, well actually I'm not in any harm.
I'm not gonna die. There's nothing wrong with me, but my body is still gonna react in exactly the same way that it just reacted when I almost got hit by a car. Which is why we then start to build up rejection so much in our mind. And it becomes almost like a physical thing. Some of us will, will feel rejected and will actually feel physically ill mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because of that rejection. And, and we'll take it on personally, I, I remember during Covid so I do a lot of sales training too. And when Covid hits, I lost about $60,000 worth of sales overnight because of the sales training I couldn't do in-person training. So I thought, well, I'm just gonna hop on the phone and I'm just gonna start cold calling people and see if any of them wanna take this opportunity to reset their sales team.
And I picked up the phone and I phoned this, this, this guy introduce myself, and he just took me to town. He just attacked me. And I'm like, whoa, <laugh>. And I said to him like, I'm so sorry to have interrupted you. Look, I hope your day gets better. And I'll just say goodbye. And, and you know, I understand. And I hung up the phone and I thought, wow, that was really full on what happened there. And I sent to him an email and I just said, Hey look, I do apologize if I did interrupt your day to such an extent. I really did not mean to upset you. And I feel bad about that and I really do hope you have a much better day. My press 30 seconds, my phone rang and it was him. And he phoned me back and he said, oh my God, so terrible.
Mm.
Because you phoned me just as I got rid of my last sales person, my instruction was to fire the entire team. And your phone call came through as the last person walked out the door. And I have felt terrible since that happened, right? You don't know what's happening in other people's grades. You don't know what's happening in their day. You don't know if, you know, the kids woke up at five o'clock in the morning to tell you that they had a project due that day and they'd forgotten to ask you to get some card from Office Works. So there's a lot that's happening when rejections involved and we just have to have, and and it's difficult, right? Because it is like, as I said earlier, somebody's saying, your kid's ugly. We just have to take a deep breath and have the maturity to realize this is not a physical attack on us.
People don't know us well enough to attack us as individuals. Mm-Hmm. It is the situation. It is, you know, it might be the product that's just not ready to go and shop. And we need to take a deep breath and go, yes it is, or no, it's not. And if you do get that rejection and you feel like the buyer has completely missed the mark, then go find an independent person. You know, go speak to someone like you Chelsea, and go, Hey, I had a conversation with the buyer. They said X, Y and Z. Could you just tell me what you think about this product and let me know? And also, are you gonna be able to sit there and say, I understand what the buyer was saying. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, these are some of the challenges you have and they're correct. And if you can fix those when you go back to the buyer, he's gonna be more inclined to have that conversation with you. Mm.
I think the one of the ways that I would advocate for some people to reduce the, the, the, the impact is have those independent people that you are talking about either do the selling for you or somehow just create buffer. Perhaps even with automation wear appropriate. In our systems, at least, I find if you, one of the aspects that I teach with selling is that it really is a numbers game. Assuming, like you said at the very beginning that you have a great tasting product and obviously things that we haven't talked about, but you of course teach and consult and coach on, which are around the four Ps, you know, having your product pl place price, promotion all sorted out. So let's assume, and I I'm not minimizing those, but that's not what this conversation is about. But assuming that you've got that right, then it is largely a numbers game. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, sit down at the computer or at your phone and have all your sales collateral ready to go. You know, your brochures, your catalog, your price lists, okay. Your contacts list, the telephone numbers, the email lists, et cetera. And then just batch it like you would batching production. You're gonna call 10 people today. And, and with that, from a pure mass perspective, if your conversion rate is 20%, which would be awesome.
Exactly,
Exactly, exactly. Would be a very good salesperson. So if you are listening to this and you're thinking, God, I'm not even converting one in 10, believe you me, you're doing all right if you are.
Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. You know, I say to people, out of every hundred phone calls you make, you are probably gonna have 10 conversations. Of those 10 conversations, possibly seven are gonna want information of those seven, three might actually call you in for a meeting. Yeah. And of those three, one is gonna wanna buy from you. There was a hundred phone calls that you made. So you just have to play the game. It's a, you're right, it's a ab you're absolutely right. It's a numbers game. Play the game, pick up the phone, take a deep breath, be comfortable with being uncomfortable. We've heard that all the time. Mm-Hmm. Prospecting sucks. There's nothing, there is absolutely nothing I can say today, tomorrow, or in the future. It's going to change the, the fact that prospecting sex today is may the fourth. So may the fourth be with you.
<Laugh> big. I have no J mind tricks that are going to go, you know, you know, bless you father, whatever you cannot sell, there is nothing. Just be comfortable with the fact that you're gonna be uncomfortable. Put your head down up, make the calls because each call you will get better. Yeah. Until you get to that point that that one in 100 becomes 10 in 100 becomes 20 in 100. Because to your point, Chelsea, you become discerning. You're going, how come all these people are rejecting me? And then you go look at it and you go, well, because none of them were my clients to start off with. Why the hell was I fighting them in the first place? Mm-Hmm. So then you go back to your list and you tidy it all up, right? Mm-Hmm. So just, you know, get better at what you're doing, but you've gotta stop.
Just give it a go. And if you can't do it, if you really can't do it, get help, as you said, disassociate Mm. It's not so difficult asking for help. And I think a lot of our preneurs, because they're cash strapped and I understand, believe me, I understand when you cash strap, making some decisions become a problem. Yeah. But something like investing in talking to someone like yourself, Chelsea, just if it's one hour, buying one hour of your time and saying, just break it down for me. What am I missing here? What, what, what's the mark that's not being hit in my conversation? You are never gonna look back in spending that money. But for whatever reason we think we can do it ourselves. We don't think we need help. And every time we stumble, specifically when we're in manufacturing, it's costing us a lot of money.
In fact, I was talking to a customer of mine today and we were going through, we finally fixed his sales pipeline. So from two months, well actually from two weeks ago till today, we've actually quadrupled his sales. And he said to me, you have to understand Mia, I made decisions cuz we were desperate. I was losing $40,000 a month because I didn't ask for help. Mm. Now $40,000 versus when he's paying for me a month, I'm undercharging him by almost $40,000, quite frankly. So even if you just ask someone for help, you pay them for an hour or two hours or five hours, it is absolutely a good investment of whatever cash you have.
Ah, couldn't agree more. And, you know, I would definitely send them your way, mayor. And I think that what is pertinent about what you're saying is frankly that most brand owners don't go in, in fact they go in blindly to building a brand and because they build a product and they definitely don't think about sales and probably not marketing either. So we, with, with that in mind, Mia, and as we begin to wrap up, are there aspects that you really, and you know, we obviously we don't have a infinite amount of time here, although you're gonna be on the main stage at F Pointer's Festival. So people who are coming to the festival on the 19th of May, we'll get to hear you and all your wisdom firsthand in real life. And also <laugh>, your Elm professional will be in the main stage area with a exhibitor table, so to speak. So I'm so super excited about that. But are there things that you know, that foodpreneurs need to know before we sign off today that you see that on mass don't happen outside of what we've already talked about that you want to leave them with today?
Absolutely. So you can have the sales conversation you can be put yourself in front of buyers, you can have your products in every single store. But if you don't have some of the fundamentals right, you're actually going to either bankrupt yourself mm-hmm. <Affirmative> or you're going to ruin your reputation and you're never gonna get a second p a piece of the pie. So what do I mean? You don't have your fundamentals, right? One of the things you haven't considered is your pricing. You think your pricing is right. You're quite comfortable with your pricing because you're at home or you've got a small little kitchen you've got batches you're doing and you feel that you've got your pricing right. But the minute you get into someone like a, a major calls always, whoever it might be, there's trading terms mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, there's distribution that needs to happen. And all of that eats away at your margin. And when you're eating away at margin, it's okay to sacrifice maybe, you know, a couple of thousand units. But when you're playing a a, a volume game, sacrificing margin on volume bankruptcy faster than anything else, right?
Yeah.
So that's the first thing. Consider your pricing. The second thing, and Chelsea, I'll send you a a copy of this document if you wanna drop it in for your audience to, to have a look at is understand what discounting means for your business. So we are very inclined to discount because we think I discount my product, I'm going to move a lot of product. The reality is you don't, if you discount by 5%, you probably need to sell about 15% more in order to not sacrifice the margin. So discounting becomes a really tricky little seesaw that you're on. And when you don't understand the process, you will quickly discount product and you'll quickly become unstuck. Then the other side of all of this is your manufacturing side of things. That kind of planning and demand for forecast. Because if you are going into these stores and the sales are starting to pull through and you can't keep up with that, you're in a world of right.
And then superseding all of that is to actually before you go through this, if you believe you're retail ready and odds are you're probably not a hundred percent there, but if you've built this brand up and you think you ready to go to retail, you know, they should reach out to someone like you, Chelsea, and say, Hey, I wanna buy an hour of your time because I wanna talk you through what I've done. I wanna talk you through where I am. And you know, we sit down with people at that point too where they'll say to us, this is where I am. And we're like, you know, the one beautiful lady talking about barcodes, she got Canadian barcodes and we're like, that's probably not going to help. But if you don't know and you're doing it on your own and you're not getting help and you're not getting support and you're not gonna get advice, you are gonna come unstuck.
And then you have to rewind it. So before you even need to rewind, just do a sense check with somebody who knows the industry well like yourself, Chelsea and then move to the next step. And by the way, if you're sitting here listening to this going, oh my God, I've made all those mistakes already. You're in good company. Believe me when I'm telling you, you're in good <laugh>. There are some well known brands. I mean Chelsea, you've worked with some of them. I've worked with some of them who have gone to market making exactly these same mistakes and have had to backpedal and fix it up. So you're in good company.
Absolutely. And it's good to make the mistakes on the first million dollars rather than the second million, right? Yeah. <Laugh>.
But it's even better to make the mistakes on the first hundred thousand cause somebody else I like refer to it as, you know, the gray hair group. That's what I like to refer to as we have gray hair, you me, but we have gray hair. I gray hair have. So why don't you, my gray hair to avoid you getting those gray.
Absolutely. And I think as Ozzy's, you know, the BS meter is so high and there's this resistance to being sold to, particularly from advisors to the industry. And you know, if anybody's listening right now going, oh yeah, yeah, here we go. You know, I'm, I have zero interest today. I really wanna support Mia and the amazing work that they do at Elm Professional. Zero interest in in selling myself per se. But it's true. Like I go to professionals who have the experience so I can save resources, time and money. Oh. Yet with so many founders, it's like, no, no, I'll do it myself. I'll
Do it. Great.
And it's, it's a big mistake. I see it all the time. I can almost predict their trajectory and I see the people on social media who've chosen that path and that they're really stayed stagnant to be really frank. I do, I do. I see it often. I'll
Say to people, you've got your zone of genius. I think I referred to it at the beginning. This is your zone of genius. This is my zone of genius is sales. When I get her conversation and people wanna talk about that manufacturing side of things or or demand forecasting or business management or business consulting, I can do it. Probably not as well as someone like you. Let's be absolutely honest. Definitely not as quick as someone like you. So why on earth would I spend my time muddling over something like that when I know there is somebody who can do it better? I am not creative enough to create a product. Right. You do not wanna see what I cook. So there is no way my product is ever up in Cole and Woolworths unless there's like a zombie apocalypse
<Laugh> and
Everyone's relying me to eat them. Right? I know that that's not my zone of genius, but I understand and I appreciate that. That's my customer zones of genius. That's where they absolutely thrive. And where they don't thrive, where they really struggle, that's when they come to us. That's when they come to someone like you so that they can stem the bleeding quickly, but leverage the knowledge and experience that we bring to the party in order to avoid making those common mistakes. So stick within your zone of genius and allow the rest of the world to do what they do really, really well. Because that's where the success comes from.
Yes. And also not expect change overnight because it takes all brands time.
Oh yeah. Coca-Cola wasn't like the dominating factor. It's today <laugh>
<Laugh>.
If you look at the evolution of Coca-Cola, I mean my goodness, they couldn't even get their bottles right for the first, I don't know, 40 or 50 years. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, gi give it time. And, and the last thing I wanna leave people with is just on that point is when you going into market, ask yourself who you selling to? We all hear when we talk to marketing people, oh define your avatar. Define this person, define that person, do all of that. I'm not in marketing, don't ask me for marketing advice. You're gonna get yourself into trouble if I give you that advice. But I want you to consider the following. There are 26 million people in Australia. If I was to say to all the new brands that we've worked with and Chelsea that you've worked with, in fact, I'll ask you the question. Think about one of your brands. Could they service 26 million people?
Mm None of them.
None. And if we said, okay, well let's just opt for 10%, could they service 2.6 million?
Very, the the minority.
Very small. Right? So we'll double down further and say 10% could they get to 260,000?
Yeah. We're opening up the field now maybe. Yes. But it's still, we're still talking very small numbers.
Right? So then if we go 10%, we say 26,000, have we hit our sweet spot
In a year? 26,000 units? Absolutely
Right. How difficulty when you're looking at that number 26,000 start your planning there. Yeah. Because it's easier to scale up at that point. And I think what our guys do is they focus on the 26 million mm-hmm <affirmative> and then when they're focusing on the, or even the 2.6 million things just unwind really, really quickly for you. Cuz you can't wrap your mind around it. So just be very clear who wants to buy your product and spend your time and energy getting it into their kitchens because from there it'll evolve and you will get more consumers.
Yes, absolutely. And on that note too, mayor, I think from a marketing perspective and avatar, you know, one person to the next, there's so much variation, but there are themes. So I think there's two sides to the coin with regards to target marketing in that what I hear people say is, oh, you know, it's hipster mums from Bondi or Byron. And okay that's good. But one common I often hear myself saying around that is why do you think that? And is there enough of hipster mums from Bondi and Byron Bay who are going to put more money in your pocket by selling, by buying enough of your product? There's that aspect. And on the flip side of the coin, there isn't necessarily the knowledge enough beyond like the themes of people. Cuz the hipster mom from Bondi probably has some similarities with her purchasing as the fitness guy from Collingwood, Melbourne. Hmm,
Hundred percent. It blows my mind when I was doing a rebranding just sit quickly to wrap up. I was doing a rebranding for a a a high quality fish and pasta company and that it's their 20 years. So they wanted to do rebranding and the business owner who's absolutely beautiful and the most passionate, sharing, caring person, you know, if all business owners were like her, the world would just be the best place to live in. She was going through her appetite, she was doing exactly that. She was taking herself <laugh> and she was putting herself in various ways. Yeah. And I finally, the marketing company phoned me and said, we can't work with this. I dunno, what, what is this? This is not, I don't understand. So then I had to come in and do exactly what you just said. Now, okay, so you're looking for the mum <laugh>, but what are the characteristics of that mum?
Okay, they've got disposable income. Who else has got disposable income? Well, singles have disposable income. What about does not they wanna feed their family healthy? Well, who else is feeding healthy? Oh, the guy with the single, with the disposable income who goes to the gym, right? Yeah. And all of a sudden we got into the nitty gritty and it was still the one person, it was that person that she originally came up with, but it was the various worlds in which this person or incarnations of what this person would look like. Yes. and you can't get it when you are so emotionally attached to your product. And that's challenge. You've got, you are so emotionally attached, you just cannot get outta yourself to see the broader picture. And that's the safe part of about
It is and can be too literal sometimes you just gotta live in a place of metaphors and or uncertainty, which can, which can be uncomfortable for some Meia Van Berg, we are gonna see you on the main stage at Foodpreneurs Festival on the 19th of May in Sydney. You are so knowledgeable, helpful, generous. And I think it's been a joy to get to know you actually very recent relationship. Yours. Yeah. Very recent <laugh>. Thank you today for sharing your expertise on sales. Where can people find out more about you and Elm Professional?
Taking our website, www.elmprofessional.com. Otherwise pop into LinkedIn. You'll find me in LinkedIn. Otherwise I'll be at the free Premier shows. I'm, I'm pretty easy to find. I love having you and I love chatting with people. Every conversation I have with people I wanna make sure I add value to, to their lives. So yeah, pick me up on there.
Okay, that's your scale strategy for today. Thanks for listening. I hope you found today's insights valuable and you're ready to implement what you learned so that you land more accounts, get your product into more consumer's hands, and put more money in your pocket for every food and drink product you sell. I'd like to ask you now to help me help more women in food and drink live life on their terms by giving me an honest rating. Five stars would be lovely, but that's up to you. Write a review and subscribe to the Foodpreneur Podcast on your platform of choice. The more you provide feedback and share the word about Foodpreneur, the more I know what you find helpful, the momentum builds and it becomes easier for me to help even more foodpreneurs scale. So thank you for taking a moment to do that. I truly appreciate it and I look forward to chatting with you again next week for another episode of Foodpreneur with Chelsea Ford.