Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 132: Beyond Bad Behavior: Understanding Children's Messages
What if there's no such thing as a bad kid? What if challenging behaviors are simply messages children send when they lack the emotional vocabulary to express themselves?
Licensed Professional Counselor Jillian takes us behind the scenes of a behavior modification camp founded in the 1960s that continues to transform lives today. Drawing from five summers working at this unique program and her family background of psychologists, Jillian breaks down the evidence-based techniques that help children thrive through connection rather than control.
We explore the power of token economies where children earn points for positively-framed behavioral goals—points that, crucially, can never be taken away. Learn why traditional punishments like timeouts and taking away privileges often backfire, while strategic ignoring paired with enthusiastic positive reinforcement builds intrinsic motivation. Jillian shares practical examples from both camp and home settings, including a touching story about decoding her three-year-old's resistance to school after a frightening fire drill.
The conversation reveals how shifting our language from "don't do this" to "here's what you can do" fundamentally changes our relationships with children. We discuss how teachers and parents can implement these techniques to create environments where kids feel understood, validated, and set up for success. Most importantly, we discover that sustainable behavior change happens when children feel seen, heard, and loved—even during their most challenging moments.
Ready to see behavior as communication and transform your approach to the children in your life? This episode offers practical wisdom for anyone who believes in a child's inherent goodness and wants to build connections that last a lifetime.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tremont. I'm glad you're here today. I am really excited about this conversation that we are about to have. You know the thing that I do, you know before I push record right. So before you hear this part, I think part of why every episode I start with oh my gosh, I'm so excited is because I've spent the last five to seven minutes talking to the guest about what we're going to talk about, and then I'm super jazzed about what's coming. So anyway, I am really glad that we are here together today.
Speaker 1:My focus is constantly to try to make words matter for good. That's kind of my philosophy. It's the thing I spend my days and nights trying to preach and practice in my own living room and the relationships that I have. And so we are in for a treat today, because I think I am in good company here with a fellow child-focused kind of behavior modification-focused kind of person. But I'm sure we're going to kind of dig into other things. So, jillian, can you introduce yourself to folks? Tell us one fun thing about you, and then we're going to dig right in. I mean, I just know we're ready to dig right in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my name is Jillian. I am a licensed professional counselor. I live in Madison, wisconsin. I have spent most of my life fascinated by human behavior. I think that a little bit about myself is going to bleed right into fun fact.
Speaker 2:So I come from a family of psychologists. My dad is a school psychologist, my mom has a PhD in psychology, my sister also has a PhD in psychology. And my parents met while working at this beautiful program in Southern Indiana and I grew up hearing these stories about this program they worked in and the work that they did there and they would tell like all kinds of funny stories about quote unquote camp, and so I have always had this fascination with our inner workings. And then that pushed me to get a degree in psychology and then a master's degree in clinical mental health. And then I moved to Madison with my partner and I have my own private practice.
Speaker 2:I see clients individually, I do behavioral kind of intervention with parents and children. I also do just individual counseling with adults. But I've learned that this behavior therapy and sort of these behavioral concerns follow us throughout life and they really have deeper meanings. So that's kind of like what I've been exploring the last couple of years is how do they have deeper meanings and what can we do about that? I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I really resonate with the cognitive behavioral lens and so for the first major portion of my career I often was in therapy sessions through this cognitive behavioral lens and I still sort of generally live in that zone. But I also know that, yeah, there are other parts. This like deeper meaning of things, not just what are you thinking, how is that translating to behavior and vice versa, but also like, okay, so let's, let's take a little deeper. And it doesn't mean that CBT doesn't go deeper, but, like you, it's like I've always been fascinated with how people think, feel and behave. I I didn't grow up, and so it's so fascinating to hear that you grew up amidst a lot of other folks who were also fascinated with how people think, feel and behave, so I'm sure that influenced you in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we joke about this, but it is very true. One of the biggest ways it influenced me is because I have an older sister, and that is a really great way to utilize behavior modification. Another child present because you can. You can praise the other child in order to write, write kind of like, be a catalyst, motivate, without actually giving a direct instruction. And so I would hear frequently like my sister's name is Lauren, and I would hear frequently Lauren, I love the way you made your bed this morning. Your bed looks so great. And then I'm sitting there like did I make my bed? I obviously did not. I did not make my bed. I need to go make my bed. And then, as soon as I go make my bed, Jillian, you made your bed so wonderfully. And as an adult, and then, as soon as you know, I start working a behavior modification program, I'm like those parents, those tricky parents. They knew what they were doing.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know it's so funny. I often do workshops and I tell participants in the workshop, when I talk about my own kids, that it's like, yeah, I'm saving up for the therapy that my kids are going to need because I did all these. You know, like the things that I believe work in the therapy room, and I often tell my clients this that like, obviously, everything I talk about, we want it to be rooted in evidence, but I also am like I practice the things that I know are also rooted in evidence in my own home. So, yeah, yeah. So I love that your house, your kind of upbringing, was very rooted in kind of following these same things, and so you talk about this program in Southern Indiana. So and you kind of mentioned that this was also a very influential part of your career and kind of where we're headed to talk about things today. So tell us a little about that program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, down there in southern Indiana there is a school called Hanover College and in the late 1960s I probably am going to get the history wrong here, but in the late 1960s a psychology professor from Hanover College, dr Harv Rossen. He had this grand idea for a behavior modification program. He saw the need in his community. He was working at Hanover College, so he was a local to the area and he saw a need in his community for the children there to receive help and to receive. It was a rural it's a rural, pretty rural community and so he had the space to do that. The program is called English and Park Children's Program.
Speaker 2:It is technically located in Lexington, indiana, which is sandwiched kind of right between Madison and Scottsburg, and you know, if you're familiar with the Southern Indiana layout, scottsburg has been hit in the past 20 years with just a lot of need. There was an opioid epidemic that was pretty significant, and then he also opened it up to kids from Indianapolis and so there was a lot of funding to help kids from specific counties. So he implemented this program at English Gym Park. He hired his students to work there and so he would have people from his psychology program and people from the education program at Hanover, come to work as staff for the summer. My parents were his psychology students at Hanover and just had so much respect for him. I mean, he was a man ahead of his time in terms of, like, the research that he did and the things that he wanted to accomplish, and my dad ended up working there for a number of years, but my parents met there. It's a really interesting place to meet your partner.
Speaker 1:I bet, I bet it is.
Speaker 2:And I say that because I also met my partner there and I know, right, everything just runs in the family, that's right. So he created this program and then it's been. I think this is it's beyond 50 summers now that it's been running. This is it's beyond 50 summers now that it's been running. But they Dr Rosson passed away a number of years ago but the directors of it now were some of his original staff members and they still have staff members who are psychology majors, education majors, social work majors, people who are, you know, wanting to pursue this profession and have those roots in, like childhood development, understand sort of the educational psychology behind all of this. The foundation of the program is like psychology 101. You go to training and it's like day one. We're learning about operational operant conditioning, we're learning about reinforcement schedules, we're learning about just all like positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, all these things that we utilize every single day in this program. And that is the program, that's how it works. And so there's some, you know, there's a lot of different things that also play into the program that make it effective. There's a lot of different things that also play into the program that make it effective.
Speaker 2:But kids come. It really hasn't changed all that much since Dr Rawson started it, but kids come for 10 days at a time and there's a reason it's 10 days. It kind of goes on like a reverse bell curve, but they come for 10 days at a time. There's like four groups of eight children. Kids are assigned to behavioral goals. They receive academic remediation because when you have behavioral challenges at school you're probably going to fall behind. Yeah, the age range is, I think now it's like the youngest child might be like eight the oldest child I just pulled.
Speaker 2:I was just pulling it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, eight to 12.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it used to. When Dr Rossum first started, it used to be the youngest child, was six, but then they found like oh man, that's hard.
Speaker 1:Six year olds are hard yeah.
Speaker 2:It was kind of like herding cats. Yeah, so it does work, though Like it. It does work, but they they had them on a token economy. They still do. They have them on a token economy system, so they earn points for these behavioral goals and so they kind of fit them into unique categories of behavioral goals. So, when you think about what kids typically struggle with, they get these referrals lots of different sources therapists, parents, schools most typically is where they're getting referrals from. Parents, schools most typically is where they're getting referrals from. They read the referral and you can categorize them into like five or six of their very specific behavioral goals and so, like I guess, think about like, what do you usually think of as challenging behaviors from kids?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I would think, disrespect, aggression, destruction of property, not listening destruction, destruction of property, not listening, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so what we do at camp is we change those into like how can we say that to a child in a way that is that can be positively reinforced and in a way that tells them like, here's what you can do, yeah, right. Because that is what that's really. The message that we have at camp is like we don't really say things in a way that's like don't do this, stop doing that. We take all of that language out and we say here's what you can do, yep, yep. Um. So if we say like, you're not, like if we read something, it's like they don't listen. It might be like you're going to follow directions yeah. Going to pay attention? Yep. You're going to be a good friend yep.
Speaker 2:anger management is one of them, but that's always a tricky one um so it might be like learning how to express yourself, or like learning how to like handle frustrating situations. Um, task completion is another one, like kind of like getting from A to B. And then we also had like attention seeking behavior, which was another, a tricky one, because, like, how do you explain that to a child? Like just getting attention, or like telling somebody what you need, the right way, and so those are. Like you know, we had sort of those like categories of behavior goals, and they stayed the same, and so every are. Like you know, we had sort of those like categories of behavior goals, and they stayed the same, and so every child you might add like a modifier onto that, so it might be like following directions the first time, following directions with a good attitude, yep. And so those were always the behavior goals.
Speaker 2:As soon as the kids showed up to camp, they knew what their behavior goals were. Those were the only two goals that they earned points for, and they wore these. I still have some of them, but they wore these tags every single day and they earned points from a hole puncher, and so every staff member carried a single hole punch with them all the time, and that was the system Punch a point, punch a point, punch a point. The system Punch a point, punch a point, punch a point. And at the end of every day there was these tiered activities, so four options for activities that they got to cash in their points for. It buried in like desirability, essentially, or like the top tier activity was always the swimming pool. Who doesn't want to go to the swimming pool at camp? The second tier activity was something like fishing or archery. The third level activity was something like I don't really want to do that. That kind of sucks Like four square or cornhole.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, who wants to do that for an hour? And then the bottom activity was like ring toss. Nobody wants to do ring toss, and so that would be like a indication of like that was a tough day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that was like a natural indicator of you had a really tough day, yeah, but they got to start over every day, yep, and so they got a fresh tag, a fresh start every single day, and it was really important. You know, like, again, the language is really, really important important you know, like again, the language is really, really important.
Speaker 2:They earn the points. The the staff members were really just the vehicle of the puncher, um, and they just saw it happen and reinforced it. Yeah, so you know that, like, obviously, we spent like 10 days training staff on this program, but that that's like a really like brief.
Speaker 1:Right Brief broad overview. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it happened in the woods. You know like we do this all out in the woods. You're part of a group, you're, you have group belonging. There's social reinforcement. You did like this activity. You had kids who had had been like playing video games all summer. We're all of a sudden getting sunlight and playing games and like doing stuff they've never done before. It was so great and it was a lot of kids who had never had the experience of camp Yep, and so they don't have to pay.
Speaker 2:Kids don't have to pay to go. If they can pay, they can, but you don't have to pay. So it was fulfilling a need. That was like so needed it still is. It's so that they receive a lot of funding from grants. I think on the website it kind of says like where they receive their funding from. But it's just a God. It's a beautiful, beautiful program and I'm still connected to them. I worked there for five summers. Like I said, I met my partner there. He was my like co counselor for one of our groups and it's just like man, you get thrown in there with eight kids who have some challenging behaviors and you have to trust somebody immediately.
Speaker 1:That's right, have your back. This is a great couples workshop right here, yep. So you did this program, and so how does that then translate into the work that you do kind of now outside of summer camp?
Speaker 2:So what I learned at camp was that the biggest message there is no such thing as a bad kid, right, and say it again, yeah, I know, right. Like there is no such thing as a bad kid and honestly, I really, really don't believe that there is. There's also no such thing as an intentionally bad parent, I agree.
Speaker 1:Outside I, what I say in my workshops, is outside of abuse. There's really no such thing as bad parenting, you know it's there are. There are consequences to everything we do as a parent, but all of us were raised in very different ways and it just shapes who. We are Right. And so there are, like obviously better choices based on you know, the, the personality of the child you have, but parenting is very individualized.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's hard and we learn from our models, and so like it can be generational, it can be passed down to you and like it's so hard.
Speaker 2:It's so hard when we start placing blame places. Everything gets like you get ashamed of things, there's a lot of guilt. It just doesn't do anybody any good. So if we look at it from a place of like, okay, let's just, let's just all try to learn something and we can do that. And so you know, I think it's it's really just how I approach behavior therapy now in private practice is let's treat behavior as a message. All behavior is a way that children and adults communicate. Yeah, children don't have the emotional maturity, the emotional language, to tell us what's going on. So I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:Just this morning I have a three-year-old. She was really upset this morning. She did not want to go to school, she's crying, she did not want to get dressed or do anything and we're like what's going on? And she's like I don't want to go to school and she's so upset. And I kind of sat with her for a minute and I remembered they had a fire drill yesterday unannounced and she was really scared. Her teacher told me yesterday like yeah, she was really scared from the fire drill. Plus, she had been sick on Monday and Tuesday, and so she had stayed home. So then the first day back at school, she has this fire drill. It's really scary, yeah, it's really loud. And then today she's like heck, no, I'm not going back, right. And so I told her, I just I reflected that to her. I was like are you, you're scared, you're feeling scared? And she looked at me and she was like yeah. And so I was like okay, well, you know what? You're not going to have a fire drill today. And if you do, if there is, you know, a loud noise, your teacher is there to keep you safe.
Speaker 2:And so, providing that reassurance, that validation, deciphering the message and letting your child or the child know I understand, I am picking up what you're putting down and you don't have to explain, because when we just see the behavior and we say stop doing that, you have to go to school, stop crying, all that that's teaching them is God, I can't cry and my feelings don't matter, and instead we can tell them like, whoa, I get it, I understand, you're scared, it's okay to be scared, you're allowed to be scared. Here's what we do with scared, we can find somebody to help you feel safe, and you know that all kind of goes back to like attachment theory, right. So this is what I take it a step further than camp is like. This goes into attachment. This is how you form secure attachments with children is they need to have adults that they can trust. They need to have adults that they feel safe with, that can tell them yes, like I get it and I see you, I can put words to this and I'm here to help you figure it out.
Speaker 1:I love this sort of reflect and then reassure. Right, because what you said earlier, right, they don't have the words, they just know like I don't feel good and my mode of communicating, especially when they're really little, is crying or screaming, or, and I think, unfortunately and I'll put myself in this boat too that it's like sometimes those behaviors are just annoying and inconvenient. You know what I mean. It's like, bro, we're like in a hurry, we've got to get you know. So it's.
Speaker 1:I think it really does require this intentional pause and just this reminder that, yeah, they need validation of those feelings, in the same way that if we talked about our feelings to somebody else and they were like Beth, you're being a baby, just get over it and get dressed and let's go. It's like you better back up. I'm going to just sit down and have some Oreos if you don't just leave me alone. That's our little kids version, and that's even our teenagers version. They're going to shut down and go to their room and yell that they hate us, exactly. So let's pay attention to what their message is, right.
Speaker 2:Right, Right, and that's really what I believe in is like it is our job as the adults to sit in that and try to decipher, to try and understand the message, to try and figure out what is this communicating to me? Because it is never what the it's never just the behavior.
Speaker 2:And so you know, like some, you know some bigger examples, like when I typically work with clients, it's like my child is throwing things, my child is cursing, my child is hiding, running away. Okay, let's explore what's going on here. Let's talk about what are some things that have changed recently, or you know what, what are what, what kind of feelings could be underneath this? Because it might look like angry, but angry also could actually be communicating scared, nervous, sad, like sad, all kinds of things. And there's a lot of books that I recommend to families, especially with young children, that kind of give voice to this, that are just like so beautiful and give it like they're really good about saying like two emotions can be present at the same time and like I think we often think like no only one can happen and we take it for what it is.
Speaker 2:They can exist at the same time. And so when I work with families, I do try to implement kind of a token economy for families. I set it up the same way that camp does. We try to like implement it over the course of the same schedule. So like you're still punching a point Maybe you don't want to call it a point, it could be a punch, it could be whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2:I do not usually recommend stickers. The thing about stickers is they're easily removed, and so with points and with a token economy, the important thing is that the token can never be removed for bad behavior. When they earn something they have earned that that never goes away for bad behavior. And so when a child, and so when a child engages in an undesirable behavior or when they're like what I would call out of the program, they just miss an opportunity to earn a point, Yep, they don't lose something that they've already earned. That doesn't take away what they did well. And so I think sometimes parents, you know they'll be like, well, we're going to take away that sticker.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, that sticker stays up.
Speaker 2:And so, with the hole punches, those can't be taken away.
Speaker 1:They stay in the card.
Speaker 2:They're very permanent, very permanent. So you want something kind of like tangible that you can see and kind of like feel and not replace, and then also something that, like, the child can take with them all the time so it's a constant reminder of what they're working towards. So sticker charts often get like put up on a fridge and then forgotten about. If a child is, say, like upstairs or in a different part of the house, it's easy to just forget that like you're working a program. So at camp the kid would wear the tag around their neck all the time. Sometimes I suggest, like if you want to have a tag, or like even a note card, they can wear it in their pocket. They can just have it with them all the time, but something that they can see it all the time as a reminder.
Speaker 1:It's a reminder.
Speaker 2:Right, and then reinforcing those two goals. So still having those two target behaviors that you reinforce for, and when you punch the point for what they've earned. Being specific in your language, you have just earned a point for whatever the target behavior say, it's following directions.
Speaker 2:You've just earned a point for following directions because you yeah, yeah brushed your teeth, because you made your bed exactly like I asked you to, and so, like, being very intentional, it is a hyper verbal program you're gonna be talking yeah, yeah because you have to hear all of this and so you know, like I think when kids hear this, they really take it in and there's a lot of, there's just a lot of like amazing change that you can see when they become motivated and when I talk about this like bell curve kind of thing, it you start them off a little bit easy so they can experience success, yep, and then they get a little bit trickier. You raise expectations. They have to know like, okay, this isn't going to stay the same, but then you also want to like end them in the program still experiencing success, yeah, but not reducing expectations, like you're not making it easier, you're just having them experience success.
Speaker 1:I love all of this. I think it's so. So many things you're saying I absolutely agree with. I think it's so true. And I am teaching. I just got finished teaching a course on clinical interventions to my graduate students and toward the end of the textbook they're talking about behavior interventions. And you know, the first chapter was on all things positive reinforcement, and then the second part of the book, or the second part of the chapter, was on punishment and I actually said I don't even want you to read this section of the book, not because response costs, right.
Speaker 1:So like taking things away is like a behavioral intervention that we call response cost and I discourage it so much because it just takes such a sophisticated level of attention that it's just really hard to do. Well, so to your point, we want kids to understand I'm not taking these things that you've worked hard to earn, I'm not taking them away from you. But that traditional way of seeing discipline is, it permeates generations. It is just like, well, this is how my parents raised me, is they took away my thing, or they took away my device, or they took away fill in the blank, right, recess, for that matter, right? You don't even need to go down that rabbit hole. But we can't. It just takes such a sophisticated level of intervention that even I, in 20 years of doing behavior planning, I still am like, oh man, we've got to be really aware of how to keep a child motivated. And, taking things away from them, always move toward that hyperverbal, tell them exactly what they're doing, that's going in the right direction, so they know what to do again.
Speaker 2:Right, and what you just said about motivation. The motivation has to be intrinsic. It has to be. And how do we build intrinsic motivation? We don't become in charge of it as the adult and so, like a controversial opinion here, I don't believe in timeout, I just don't. So.
Speaker 2:So parents come in. They're like well, how do you like if they're doing something they're not supposed to be doing? Like, what do you do about that? How do you correct the behavior without saying stop it? My response to that is you ignore.
Speaker 2:In psychology, we call this like trying to extinguish a behavior. This is how we extinguish behaviors. We remove the attention that they want with ignore all. And this is how we extinguish behaviors. We remove the attention that they want with ignore all. And this is like exaggerated ignore all. Like a lot of this program is like you're gonna have to put on your acting hats here and be exaggerated. And then so you pair this with like ignoring and modeling.
Speaker 2:So this is where having another child is helpful, because you, your is, let's say you're they're supposed to be following a direction. The direction is please sweep the kitchen floor, yeah, and they stop. Okay, so I'm going to turn my back to you. You're not sweeping the kitchen floor anymore. They're trying to get your attention. They're asking you a question. No, you're not responding to that because they're not sweeping the kitchen floor. You can literally just like ignore them If you're, if there's another child present, you can kind of say like wow, you're, you're following directions.
Speaker 2:You, you're still doing exactly what I've asked you to do, like thank you, thank you, I perfect. Like you're still following directions. Maybe they hear this. They get back to following the direction. As soon as they get back to following the direction, there you go. I see you wanted my attention. You're following directions. Now, what can I do for you? So like letting them know this is how you get my attention back because you're back to following directions. But the ignoreal is key to it's intrinsic. They have earned your attention back because they're back in the program. If you are telling them stop it, get back to doing it, it's not anything that they're doing. They're not like feeling that kind of motivation on their own. They haven't done anything, they haven't corrected the behavior themselves. And so when they can correct the behavior themselves, when they can kind of make that connection in their own brain on their own and then receive the reward for it. Whoa. Well, you know, it's like that's how you build this success for kids and that's how they become their own sort of like correctors.
Speaker 1:And that's where the modification happens correctors and that's where the modification happens. Yeah, so I think we're bringing this to like. Obviously, the end goal is for them to have intrinsic motivation moving forward forever in all the ways, right, and so I think sometimes we have to include these token economies. We have to include some of these. You might consider them external sort of connections around this, but really the goal is that then they see that their behavior is moving in the direction of really where they start to get the things that they want, which includes feeling a sense of belonging and connection and those, those aspects not just, I mean, obviously, whatever prize they get from the points or whatever is great and fine, but really, at the end of the day, our kids want to feel connected and important and all the same things that we want to feel Successful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and, like I said earlier, it's a dance. You kind of got to figure this out. Us as adults, we really have to set the situation up. So I also I write a mental health blog weekly and I just recently wrote about this and I was providing an example of like you know.
Speaker 2:Say, you're leading a group of kids through whatever kind of transition it is, you're a teacher and they're going to recess and you're really hoping like everybody stays with the group. But you approach this area and this child sees a really like a rock and it's not just any rock, it's a cool rock. Well, they're gone, they're off with the rock and you're like, oh my gosh, like I've just lost them. They're with the rock and kind of our job, or how I see our job as the adults, is like what can we do before we get to this really cool rock to make sure that everybody stays with the group? Maybe we avoid that area, maybe we know ahead of time like we're not going to go there.
Speaker 2:Maybe we say to the child before we get there, if we know that this child typically has trouble staying with the group, we say like, hey, you're with the group right now If you can stay with the group. We're going to have so much fun. We're going to play a game when we get to where we're going and if you're staying with the group, you get to play that game, but remember you got to stay with the group. You get to play that game, but remember you got to stay with the group. If you want to play that game and, kind of like, set them up for success, you got to set them up for success before it happens, instead of punishing them for it after it happens, which is what we usually do.
Speaker 1:It's so true. We just tend to respond to things and then later I'll talk to parents that are like, oh yeah, I knew it was, I knew it was going to be bad, because they were tired or we were in a hurry or you know, fill in the blank, it's like later the parents are like I knew that was going to be bad. You know, one of the things I say a lot is learn from their behavior today what you need to do differently tomorrow. Right, so it's like, okay, I know today that it went kind of haywire, and tomorrow I'm going to plan differently, I'm going to prepare differently. And I love your suggestion about stating expectations clearly and over and over again, like, hey, we're setting them up. You said like hyper verbal, and I think it's so true Like our kids need kind of this consistent set of recommendations over and over and over, to clarify what's expected in this moment.
Speaker 1:And if you're a teacher, if you're a parent, you're like Beth, I've said the same thing over and over and I'm like, yeah, I know, like we all just need those reminders. There's a reason that my dentist texts me a thousand times Like, hey, don't forget your appointment's tomorrow. Oh, can you confirm your appointment is tomorrow. Hey, your appointment is in six hours. Okay, remember your appointment's coming up 10 minutes. Yeah, it's like we kind of all live in this way of needing a lot of reminders, because we're a very easily distracted sort of population and our brains like my brain, is fully formed, you know, like seven, and I have a frontal lobe that's fully developed. You know what I mean. Anyway, we could go down that rabbit hole too, it seems like. But yeah, so I just love this idea of reminding the grownups that the constant reminder of expectations is our path toward getting the behavior we want from kids.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and I think when we can show kids, I am here to help you be successful, I am here to help you feel success and I'm here to notice what's going on. I'm here to, I'm here to like, see, see you through all of this, to recognize your emotions, to interpret your behaviors. Like I said, that is where we form those trusting, secure relationships. Now I mean beyond parents with teachers, with other caregivers, and that I mean that's essential. Our kids spend so much time with teachers and when those positive attachments are formed with caregivers like teachers and schools, think about how beneficial that could be for kids in school. What kind of help we could provide kids who maybe they don't have that at home, but they do have that at school. What kind of problems could we solve there?
Speaker 1:And what we know is that it only takes one positive grownup relationship to shift a child's trajectory. So those kids that you're looking at, that you're like gosh, their home life is this, or hey, they've got this particular teacher that they're just not really meshing well, or you know. Fill in the blank, whatever it is, it only takes one of us. It only takes one of us.
Speaker 2:Right. So maybe maybe it happens. You know a little bit at home, but it could also happen at school. You know teachers can. Teachers can shift language a little bit. They can kind of shift like how they correct behaviors. Maybe it's not across the classroom, maybe it's one-on-one saying like, hey, you need to do this or you need to.
Speaker 2:You really need to keep your hands to yourself Instead of like yelling it across the classroom or giving that direction in front of everybody, or it's saying like, hey, you're having a tough time this morning, Maybe this is happening. We're trying to reflect it back to the child, validating some of those experiences. They make those connections and I just think like this could make school a safer environment. This could make kids kind of show up to school feeling better. There's just problems that I feel like, oh my gosh, we could solve a lot of things If more adults in kids' life had some of this language, some of these you know tools that are small, like not everybody has to be trained in mental health to do this, Cause I get it Like it's hard. We all have our own day jobs we got to do, but it's small right, but it's small.
Speaker 1:Okay, there were so many good things, so I want you to end with any one last thing that maybe you didn't get out, and then tell people how they can find you follow. You read that blog you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the most important part of all of this is that behavior change is really about connection. At the end of the day, behavior is never about behavior. It is about the message that it's sending. And changing behavior is about building trust. It's about teaching emotional regulation, self-awareness in the child pride success. It's about teaching emotional regulation, self-awareness in the child pride success. It's about helping children believe I can do this. The people around me believe in me. They believe in me when I struggle. They believe in me when I'm sad. They love me when I'm sad. They love me when I'm mad. They love me when they're mad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when that happens, when they believe those things, behavior change becomes sustainable, becomes real. And when it's built on connection and not control, I firmly believe and I know it's true that the world can be a better, healthier place, and so people can find me.
Speaker 2:I have a couple different places, I guess. So, like I said, I write a mental health blog with content that comes out I try to do weekly. It's called thecandidcounselorwritescom. I have an Instagram that is at thecandidcounselorwrites, but the website is thecandidcounselorwrites. At the Candid Counselor Writes, but the website is the Candid Counselor Writes. My goal there is to make mental health a very common conversation. So we talk about things like this. It's like, yeah, we do this every day because this is what we talk about. And then my practice my private practice, is called New Growth Counseling and Consulting, so it's new-growth-counseling-consulting, but the website is new-growth-consulting. I'm open to just about anything. I'm open to talking with other professionals, seeing people for individual counseling. Obviously, I'm licensed to practice in Wisconsin individual counseling. Obviously I'm licensed to practice in Wisconsin, but I will.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping to be back at English Gym Park in some capacity this summer, even just to stop by and say hi. We try to like visit every once in a while. But now that I have a private practice, I have like some flexibility to be around. But they are always I'll put this out there they're always looking for staff members, college students, psychology majors, education majors, people interested in the field, social work. They provide room and board for the summer. Meals are provided. It's a great opportunity for job recommendations. I have been connected to so many people in this field because of English Gym Park. It is incredible and the pay is great. It's fun. You learn so much. So if you are a college student and you're like what am I going to do this summer?
Speaker 1:Look into it.
Speaker 2:It is seriously such a great opportunity for work and to like get real world experience in this field with kids.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. I am going to link all these things in the sort of show notes. So I'm so grateful that you came to share all this information and just like great tidbits and all these resources. So thank you for saying yes to being here today. I know, thank you for having me. Yeah, I mean, I'm always just so honored to have clinicians who come during a billable hour that isn't a billable hour, and so I'm just grateful you said yes to being here. So, listener, thank you also for being here today and I hope you got some nuggets that you can walk away with or share with a friend. And you know, if you share this episode with other folks that you think might kind of need to hear it, we'd love to have that happen too. So thanks again and until next time, stay safe and stay well, ciao.
