Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 138: Are we playing enough? The critical role of play across childhood with Kim Feeney
The secret to effective child therapy isn't just what happens in the therapist's office – it's who's in the room. Kim Feeney, an Adlerian play therapist, makes a compelling case for why parental involvement isn't optional when healing children's emotional wounds.
"Parents are the experts on their child," Kim emphasizes, explaining how Adlerian therapy recognizes that all behavior serves a purpose within family systems. Without understanding a child's family atmosphere, therapists miss crucial context for meaningful intervention. Think about it this way: parents have 365 days of influence annually, teachers have 180 school days, while therapists might have just 45 sessions – who are the real change-makers in this equation?
The conversation explores common obstacles to family involvement in therapy and practical strategies for overcoming them. From scheduling challenges to parental discomfort with play, Kim offers straightforward approaches that honor both parent and child needs. Parents often arrive feeling defeated and overwhelmed, making the therapist's ability to validate their expertise while guiding new skills particularly crucial.
Beyond family dynamics, we dive into the concerning decline of play skills across childhood. Kim provides age-specific recommendations for meaningful play: non-directive approaches for preschoolers, collaborative projects for elementary children, and – perhaps surprisingly – continued playful connection with teenagers. "Teenagers need play too," Kim insists, suggesting parents allow teens to become the experts who teach them about their interests. Sometimes being "cringe" is exactly what creates breakthrough moments!
For fellow therapists, Kim offers wisdom about the patience required in child therapy. The process often involves several sessions before addressing presenting concerns directly. Through metaphorical play – puppet shows about fighting animals or games of "monkey in the middle" – children communicate their struggles in ways words cannot capture. "We're just planting seeds," she reminds us, with results that might not blossom until years later.
Ready to transform your approach to understanding and connecting with the children in your life? Discover more about Kim's work at butterflybeginningscounseling.com.
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I am a psychologist and professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of our Master's in Mental Health Counseling program, and I love talking about therapy. I love talking about the processes of therapy. I get to do that in training graduate students, but also I get to talk to amazing people, like my guest today, about kind of the reasons for why we do certain things in the therapy room, and so I'm really excited about this conversation, though Honestly I think it may be a bit of a challenging conversation, because I think it is something that if you're a therapist who works with kids or teens or families, you have probably faced this struggle, and if you're a parent at home, you might also be, in I don't know, interested in hearing kind of this side of the conversation. So I'm excited to dig in. But my guest today, kim Feeney, is here. Can you introduce yourself and tell us something fun about you right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, like she said, my name is Kim and I'm in Davenport, iowa. I work with kids and families. I'm a social worker, a play therapist, a sand tray therapist and all the fun things. And something fun about me recently I started a bowling league with my summer bowling league with my sister and two of my cousins and we meet on Mondays and I was super excited because I had my high game last Monday of a 129, which I know for most people not a huge deal, but for me I'm excited when I get over 100. So 129 was like amazing and I was super proud.
Speaker 1:So is amazing. I am proud of you. I mean, I am not a great bowler. I still, you know, I would be fine if they put the bumpers up for me. Still, you know, and even then I probably wouldn't get a 129. So you're doing a real good thing and doing that.
Speaker 2:Yes, even the therapists have to play a little bit.
Speaker 1:So yes, I love that. Well, I have to admit, at first I thought you said you started a bullying league and I was like, wow, this is gonna be an interesting start to an episode. It could be. You know, you never know where the twists and turns are going to be. When you get two therapists together, Absolutely it's hysterical, All right, Well, look Kim. So here's a little bit of the background of this conversation. So, Kim, at the end of the show we're going to share about how you can find Kim and her website.
Speaker 1:But you are very clear, you are very explicit about your expectations of therapy and I I think, as many ways as we can be explicit about expectations in every, in kind of every relationship, in every way makes for fewer misunderstandings, fewer miscommunications.
Speaker 1:Right, You're very clear. And so in your email, your automatic response to the email, you have that same clarity and, in particular, this clarity around your approach as an Adlerian play therapist and you're going to explain a little bit about what that means. But your approach in working with kids through that lens, you say like I don't want and I will not work with kids unless their parents commit to being involved, and I love that explicit message. And so we're going to dig into that a little bit and some of the challenges. That probably poses the obstacles because, as a therapist who specializes in working with kids and families also, I understand the challenge and the balance of trying to do that. So we're going to unpack all of that but before we get started, so help us understand this idea of Adlerian play therapy. So that's a very specific type of play therapist. Tell us a little more about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Adlerian or individual psychology as as Adler coined it. Basically the belief is that we're all striving for belonging and significance and the first place that a kid does that is in their family. So I can't understand that kid and where they're fitting in or not fitting in without understanding that family in or not fitting in without understanding that family and then, consequently, the school environment, any sort of community activities they're involved in, but the core of it is that family. That's where those early memories are made, those core concepts. And the other side of that piece is that Adlerians believe that all behavior has a purpose. And by understanding the family because again those are the foundations that that kid has grown up on and the family, we call it, the family atmosphere, the family constellation, and determining again where that kid fits in or not fit in and where they might be different than their family or similar, and again understanding those patterns of behavior.
Speaker 1:So it would make sense through that lens to say I can't see this individual child and really understand how to help them unless I see the atmosphere in which they live.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I have to see those interactions, the interactions with the parents, the interactions with the siblings. I consult with teachers, I get information about the school environment. Yeah, those are all important consultations.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more in understanding kind of the whole child. I think one of the things we had talked about before we pushed record is there have been moments in my career where I'm like I really wish I could get the family in here, but getting families involved can sometimes be an obstacle. So can you talk a little bit about what those obstacles are that you have faced and perhaps maybe how you've tried to overcome or how you have overcome some of those obstacles?
Speaker 2:Scheduling is a big one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That school-based therapy has become more commonplace now, which I'm totally a proponent of. I was a therapist for a long time. But a trend that I saw as a school-based therapist was the parents signed the paperwork. They think, ok, I did this, now I wash my hands, so again scheduling, maybe a Zoom call outside of school hours, if we can do to knock those barriers down of scheduling, of time management, of just resistance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. You know I have a lot of supervisees who do their clinical placements in schools and at that time you know you're sort of like, well, look, I need you to get your hours and the kids are right there in the classroom and the parents sign off and you get, and like you it's. I'm not saying that good work can't be done in a school based setting, but you certainly don't get that same interaction. You don't get that same whole picture of what the child is kind of managing outside of that 30 minutes you get with them in the school.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and the parents are the experts on their child. I believe that, and if we're not in partnership, I don't know if true healing can really happen. Yes, you can make strides. I totally believe in school-based therapy. I totally believe in consulting with the teachers in the school environment. However, I'm not sure you're going to get that full integrated healing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, one of the things I was thinking about in reflecting on my practice with kids well, frankly, in kids and teenagers is sometimes and I think this is on both sides of the coin here sometimes kids would come in and they would tell me like, yeah, you know, I've had a pretty good week. You know I got in trouble in math or whatever, and we would talk through that and they had a friend thing. And then later I would talk to the parent and they were like what did they tell you about Saturday? And I'm like, nope, sure didn't mention it, not even a little bit. And I've had the other thing happen, right when the parent comes in and they're like, oh, wait till I tell you about all the things that happened this week, you know, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:And if the child isn't in there to be like, well, hey, by the way, you also went berserk on my brain about, you know, my math grade, and then my teacher just forgot to upload it. And then, once they uploaded it, my grade was just fine, but you never apologized and you just kept yelling at me anyway. So it's like on both sides of that coin we have selective and whether it's intentional or unintentional, selective sharing of information that without the other party, it's sort of like well, as a therapist, you just have to go with what you're getting. We don't we don't really have access to fact check everything.
Speaker 2:Exactly and you have to get again both sides of the story and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Yeah, yeah, but getting that perception and again, that's what it is. It's their individual perception and that's we act as if our perception is real. So if that kid believes that mom didn't apologize, or mom never apologizes, that's how they're going to act towards mom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that really gives so much more kind of meat for therapy to be influential with right. And I've had lots of parents in my therapy office where they've been just kind of a little bit more nervous about what their kid might say about them as parents and I try to reassure them that actually it's helpful if both sides just share their truth to what you're saying. Like I recognize that there's the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. But I think sometimes it is hard as parents to like have your kid air out kind of your dirty laundry to a therapist and you want them to think you're a good mom.
Speaker 2:And a lot of times parents come to us at their worst. They've tried everything they can think of, they're at their wit's end, they feel defeated, they feel overwhelmed. They do feel like a bad parent. So, as much as we can validate that we're here to help and again build a partnership, I have a jar in my office. It's got 365 red beads, 180 blue beads and like 45 purple beads, so the 365 represents the parents, the daily contact they get. We've got 180 school days here in Iowa, so that's the teachers, and then the 45, if I'm lucky, the hours that I get between camps and conferences and people being sick and vacations and all that. So, if I'm lucky, so I bring that out at my intake and I'm like okay, you are really the change maker in this situation. I understand that you feel defeated and overwhelmed and unsure of yourself, but you are the expert, you know your child the best.
Speaker 1:I love that bead thing you just said, just love that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've heard of people doing the 365 in the jar before and having it be, you know, a visual representation of how much influence we have every day.
Speaker 1:But I love like seeing the comparison of hey look, you know, and really, if we're talking about like touch points, even the, even the 45 touch points that we have are just an hour versus a parent who may get, you know, a couple of hours I absolutely love that and I think about I'm still kind of like stuck there, kim, actually, because I'm a little like I read some research in the past where they've said parents actually don't always get a ton of time with their kids. You know that we're not really maximizing the half hour that you have with your kid before you send them off to school. You're not maximizing the after school, before bedtime sort of moments and you know how many of those moments where you know they're at home for what four or five of their waking hours or something, and then they're at school for seven of their waking hours and I've done that sort of similar comparison where it's like your kid's teacher needs to matter to you as a parent a lot because they are co-raising your kid during that season. You're nodding ferociously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's so true and that's why, again, the collaboration with, and communication with all parts needs to be there.
Speaker 1:Okay, so can you talk about that a little bit? So I know some listeners are therapists themselves, either veteran therapists or they may be even kind of newer clinicians. But I think we have gotten away from perhaps collaborating with as many outside you know providers or other, because it's not a billable hour. I mean, I know a lot of folks see it just being like, well, I can't bill insurance for the time. You know, the half hour for me to call the teacher or whatever. How do you, how do you advocate for that? I guess?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I just justified that I need to do what's best for that client. Yeah, that parent is contracting me to do Like communicating with that teacher. I'm doing what's best for that client and keeping in mind that I know teachers are overworked and underpaid and they don't oftentimes have the time to do even a 10 minute phone call, take it where you can get them and even in email exchange if that's better for the teacher. Again, use technology, you know, prevent those obstacles.
Speaker 1:I have always thought you know the teachers that I've interacted with when I've had client consultation with other teachers, it has always really felt helpful both for me and, I think, for the teacher, that the teacher feels like, okay, I have somebody else who is kind of in this with me, with the kid, who I am concerned about, because if they're in therapy, the teacher most likely is also concerned about them. Now there are some cases where you know the kid isn't having any problems at school but he's having more. He or she is having more problems somewhere else, but for the most part what's happening at home for the child is also happening at school.
Speaker 2:And I think the teachers are just as invested emotionally.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:And it's that time crunch that we run into, just like we all do 24 hours in a day. But yeah, I think if I can give them one or two little nuggets of things they can do in the classroom just to support that child, I think it's beneficial.
Speaker 1:Well and again. As a therapist, it is always hopeful to hear from additional people in that child's life. That just gives us more again, just like more meat for therapy to be helping and processing through.
Speaker 2:You get that full 365 perspective.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I know that I'm kind of preaching to the choir with you here, but when you work with kids those multiple domain, at home, at school, in the community it's just so invaluable to get a sense of kind of what is going on, because sometimes it does. You know, I think about my own kids, right, kim, where, like and frankly, even our dog acts differently when they're around me. You know he acts differently around me than he does when, you know my husband comes in the room. So we know that kids act differently in different spaces and around different people. And knowing those things is more information for us as therapists to use in formulating how we can help them better.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Again, we get that full picture and then with that full picture we can build our treatment plan. We can conceptualize that client better. We can communicate with the parents about what might be happening, communicate with that kid about what might be happening. Again, all behavior has a purpose. So what they're doing in school, there's a purpose for that. What they're doing at home, there's a purpose for that. I get to put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and play detective and figure that out. That's my job, but that's okay. But I can't do that unless I have that full picture Incredible, it's great.
Speaker 1:So let's shift just a slight version here to say, okay, so this is just the Beth Trammell perspective. I think we are playing less, just as a whole. I think we are playing less, and now I'm not talking about playing games on your phone, I'm talking about like actual play, with play things. I think we're playing less, which suggests a couple of things for me, and I'm curious how you approach this as a play therapist.
Speaker 1:Right, I think kids you know I'm in early childhood spaces a lot and I see a whole bunch of play skill deficits. Like our kids just don't know how to play from a very young age, whereas, you know, decades ago, because we didn't have devices, they were sort of like you're forced to just play. Like you know, I was just like forced to play with like leaves outside. You're forced to just play. Like you know, I was just like forced to play with like leaves outside. You know what I mean. It's like we played with the trees and the leaves and, mom, if you're listening, I love you, but we definitely, like you know, you just had to sort of figure it out, and so I see a deficit in play skills and kids for sure, as I think about your approach to therapy.
Speaker 1:Being a play therapist who really needs the parent to be there. I just think about how that by itself is already something that I could think a lot of parents are like oh well, yeah, I think playing with my kid would be great, kim. Yeah, I'll drop him off and he can play in the sand with you and make sure you clean him up, because I don't want sand in my car. But I sure as heck am not going to play. I don't know what that even means or looks like, or I don't have time for that, or how is that helpful? What's your reaction to all of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I again I go back to you're the expert in your kid, I need you here. Yeah, I'm honest that we got to work together and if the sand isn't your thing, we'll do art or we'll do Legos or we'll do puppets, or we'll find something that works for both you and your kid and hopefully collaboratively coming together.
Speaker 1:Do you find that parents are hesitant to play? Some of them definitely are. We almost have to coach the parents as much as the kids to learn how to play in the space that you're in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we can bring in devices and we can bring in a Switch or an iPad and I've used that therapeutically. I know there's a controversy about devices in the playroom. I'm embracing it or I'll do. Video game metaphors Create me a world based on a video game level, on how your week went, just bringing in that, whether they're doing it through Legos or in the sand or art, but again bringing in that video. You know, use your avatar, create an avatar for how your week went, things like that. So finding that common ground with that kiddo and the parent and I do encourage them to have like at home play time too.
Speaker 1:I was actually going to go right there. Next, what are the common recommendations that you have for parents and playing at home with their kids?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I go back to the child led play. The parent is tracking the parents, reflecting feelings, and I teach them this in one on one parent consultations so they go into it prepared. I don't just go home and play with your kid and let them lead. No, I teach them about tracking. I teach them about reflecting feelings. I teach them about setting limits, because obviously that's a necessary part of play. I teach them returning responsibility and all these skills that they're going to need and we talk about that and we practice, we role play in, again, parent counsel, just one-on-one consultation sessions.
Speaker 1:I mean I can, yeah, I mean I can imagine that that consultation is really valuable because, though child led therapy or child led play sounds like it would be easy, it's. I mean, it is a skill to be learned.
Speaker 2:It's hard to step out of that authoritarian mode. You know, even in my playroom I coach them. You know, if a limit needs to be set, let me do that. You just sit back, relax and enjoy the time with your kid versus. You know you got to pick that up because you're done. No, we'll do that at the end. Well, it'll take care of itself, things like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're both giggling a little bit because I think we've both experienced those parents who really struggle with and for me it kind of always seemed like it wasn't that the parent didn't know that they should intervene in some sort of way, but it was more like they felt this pressure to intervene in some kind of way to show they were doing it right or show they were doing something at all or I don't know. I just kind of always to what you said it was my encouragement was like it's okay in this space, you know you can sit back. You can just not say anything. You can kind of watch how I intervene, but unless I said that almost explicitly every time.
Speaker 2:it felt like they kind of came back to feeling that pressure for expectations. Yeah, they want to prove they're a good enough parent and you know, just like in their normal adult to adult relationships, that's kind of how they measure success. So again, being in the room with another adult, if they're not taking responsibility for their child, they feel less than.
Speaker 1:Well, and not only you know I mean this goes without saying but not only another adult, but an expert who is there to help them get better. And because that's true, we are sort of evaluating them and it's tough. I mean, I have felt this pressure in the therapy room before, where it was like I am kind of judging you, but not in a way that I want you to feel like I'm judging you. I'm more like I'm. I'm here, I have to make some judgments around what's going well or not going well so I can help you. But I'm not judging you as a person. I'm just sort of judging what's happening between the two of you or how this is going, because I think even the best intentions don't always land with our kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, we act as if, and sometimes that kid's perception is totally different. And we have to observe those interactions between parent and child or family members to again get that full picture.
Speaker 1:So do you have different recommendations or kind of what's the youngest that you work with or that you think is helpful?
Speaker 1:I go to youngest three, Three, Okay, that's great. So preschoolers I kind of tend to split people or kids into, like preschool zone, elementary zone, middle school zone and sometimes our upper elementary kids and our lower middle school kids, depending on maturity level. That seems to be an area where you know that what you do with a sixth grader and that what you do with a pretty mature fourth grader may not be that different, depending on maturity level.
Speaker 1:But maybe we could go through kind of the childhood range there and maybe share, just like, a couple of thoughts you have on how parents or even therapists who may want to work with that age group, what kind of play, what kind of play recommendations you have. So if we start with, like our preschoolers, our three to five year olds, how do you recommend parents play with their three to five year olds?
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, pretty non directive letting them be creative. Bring in your doctor kit, your dollhouse, your kitchen. A lot of kids lately have been drawn to the kitchen, I've noticed. Yeah, that's fun, it's observing, but they really like the idea of making food, baby dolls, things like that. Just again, things that they can play with. And again you're there to hold the space, to be supportive, to follow their lead.
Speaker 1:It's great advice and I find that the parents at this age group maybe it's just because I'm around this age group a lot lately, but it feels like this age group is the hardest to find the balance between, you know, non-directive play and setting limits. So I'm picturing you know a friend who, or a child who may be like crashing to you know, play figurines together and the parent is like, okay, that's getting too wild. Do you know? We should probably not do that anymore. So I feel like this age group needs the most sort of molding to that. And so how do you help parents kind of find that balance between with preschoolers teaching them how to play appropriately but also allowing the story to evolve or allowing the creativity to come in that more non-directive space?
Speaker 2:I like the line. Show me another way, that's great, I love that. You know, I see that you're really angry, or there's a lot of anger in your play. Show me another way and they will figure out a way to show you another way.
Speaker 1:I love that Very simple right. Just sort of show me another way to play with those two guys besides fighting. Love that, Okay, let's move to the elementary age group. So how do you encourage parents to play during that phase of life?
Speaker 2:I bring in again a little more cognitive stuff. This is where you can bring in like your Legos, your art stuff. You can get a little more directive at this age because they're able to follow those simple directions. You know, I always start with those non-directive skills just because that's the foundation, I think, of any play-based relationship. But then, like I said, you can bring in directive stuff. You can bring in a Lego set where you're working collaboratively together or if you're working on drawing a comic strip. You know, with that early elementary age things like that, put on a puppet show together, get creative, have fun with it.
Speaker 1:Have fun with it. Sometimes, I think we forget how to have fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just sit back, relax and let it be.
Speaker 1:Let it flow and I that sounds so much simpler than sometimes. I think it goes, you know. I mean I think about some of the like art supplies and how some parents have a harder time letting it flow there yeah, I always tell parents if it's going to increase your anxiety then they don't have it.
Speaker 2:So, like I know parents, I do a lot of slime work with kids, especially in that upper elementary middle school. They make slime. Some parents don't want slime in their house and that's okay. The kids can leave it here. Yeah, put the theme on it, then they can play with it when they need to. You talk about alternatives they can have at their house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like play-doh or silly putty or something that's a little more controlled and contained I wonder if, um, you know, at this age too, it can be something that we sort of like lead up to right where it's like, yeah, you can't bring the slime home today because the last time you had slime at your house, but maybe, as you show mom or dad or grandma that you can be more responsible, then we can work our way up to that.
Speaker 2:Again, it's those baby steps, yeah, okay that's great.
Speaker 1:I think at this age, you know, I think as kids grow in their independence, I think sometimes parents forget that these kids still really want us to play with them.
Speaker 2:Again, it's that balance, that identity and that need for nurturing and support.
Speaker 1:And play is the language through which we do that.
Speaker 2:Play doesn't have to be done inside four walls.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Go outside the ball in the backyard, Jump on a trampoline. Go on a nature hike. You know a scavenger hunt, you know again, find what works for you and your family.
Speaker 1:I haven't met an elementary age kid who didn't love a good scavenger hunt. I love a good scavenger hunt, don't we all Middle school, okay. So here we go. Now we're getting into the age where we're starting to see a lot more independence in our kids and, as parents, that's what we want, right? We want for them to grow in their independence.
Speaker 1:But, sidebar, here we had a conversation with our kids because the school that they were at they've actually transitioned out of this school, but it was a K-12 school and through eighth grade they still had recess. But I don't know of any other middle schools that do recess still. And my two teenagers were like, yeah, it was so weird, we still had recess in eighth grade. And I was like, yeah, and didn't you love that? You got to go outside and sit on the picnic tables. And my daughter was like, oh, yeah, you're right, I actually really did need that break. And even her response was like we're not supposed to play in middle school. I don't like that. No, I know, okay, so go Tell me about it. What are we going to do?
Speaker 2:Again, I think, more collaborative stuff and allow your kids to be the experts. Allow them to teach you. Allow them to teach you how to make slime, allow them to teach you. Allow them to teach you how to make slime, allow them to teach you how to play. You know minecraft, things like that. Again, they get that independence and that maturity by teaching you it's still child-led, being led by your middle schooler.
Speaker 1:Anybody having an anxiety moment about that?
Speaker 2:I can only imagine, but it's okay.
Speaker 1:Again, sit back and let it flow. I mean, I could not agree more that in these moments where we can relinquish control to our kids because they don't have a lot of control in other areas of their lives, and if you have a kiddo who is struggling with you, know they're being disrespectful or grumpy or things like that like maybe you'd be shocked at how, allowing some of that like be led mentality to be a part of that relationship, you may see that their behavior turns around a little bit because they just maybe they're craving control and they don't have a lot.
Speaker 2:I hear it from a lot of middle schoolers I don't give respect because I don't get respect. And again, just allowing them to teach you. Let them tell you about the book that they're reading or the YouTube show they're watching.
Speaker 1:And that's okay. Okay, I have to admit that I sometimes forget about the power of this. I think the videos they watch are so dumb. I mean, I'm just going to lay that right on out there why are we watching another person play a video game? But when I have created the space for them to tell me what they enjoy, it does actually kind of become more enlightening, and so I just have to get past my own like bias that it's just dumb. And you know a little bit of my like listen, when we had to play Mario when I was, you know, 14, we didn't have cheat codes and we didn't have, you know, we were still like trying to blow the dust out of the cartridge that we had to jam into the machine. So look, no cheat codes for you on YouTube.
Speaker 2:That's so true. I can totally relate to that, and allowing them to be the expert gives them that freedom. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that sense of control, or that sense that they actually do know something that maybe we don't, maybe we don't know. All right, high schoolers. I mean, we're still suggesting that high schoolers need play. Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I wholeheartedly believe high schoolers need play, kim. Are teenagers too cool to play? They think they're too cool to play. I'm glad you said that. You get a teenager and again, you take him outside and you throw the ball back and forth, even if it's just five, 10 minutes. You'll see the natural they'll lighten up, their shoulders are relaxed, a smile will go on their face or shoot hoops for a little bit. Do an art project with them, a collage I love all those things.
Speaker 1:I'm curious what you think. I just had this thought, curious what you think about this. So teenagers, who you know, do those dances for tiktok to the count. Does that count as play, making a dance with your kid doing tiktok?
Speaker 2:yeah, so do, absolutely. You're lighting up, you're enjoying life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, so go there, go there.
Speaker 2:I think play is just, it's not a Webster's definition, it's the enjoyment, it's what you find fun, and that can be in many different modalities, like I said nature or movement, or music. Music can be play Again. It can be play with toys, but it can be play with digital toys. It can be anything. Open up your world. Play isn't in a box.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you said this, especially at this age range, because I think we do forget that play doesn't have to be like action figures and board games or things like that, Like play. And my son, he's almost 16. And one of the ways that he and I play are that I pretend to be the voice of our dog, and so since Duke joined our family three years ago, I have developed this voice of Duke. It's almost I would say it's 85% of how I communicate with my teenage son outside of texting. You know here or there, but I'm like you know, where'd you go? Do you go to school today? Did you wear anything at school today? I miss you. You want to play. I want you to come home with me.
Speaker 1:We play and he like talks back to duke through my voice and he I mean he keeps his voice the same but like I'll pick him up from practice and I'll say, do I have a good practice? I wait for you at home. I want you to come home and he'll say, yeah, Duke, I had a good practice, why are you? And then we just like joke about the whole thing. But it has kind of become our thing and I think sometimes, teenagers. You might have to be a little creative to try to reach them.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and it's okay to be funny and it's okay to lighten up and loosen up and again give some of that control away.
Speaker 1:It's okay if you're cringe.
Speaker 2:Exactly, there's a lot of similarities between parenting a toddler and a teenager.
Speaker 1:You're not wrong, you're really not wrong. Sometimes you have to be silly and you have to be almost a little bit over the top to kind of shock them. You know, I do workshops on how to how to work with teens, you know, for, like the Y, for example, the Boys and Girls Club, and they often have staff to be shocked. You know that moment where they're like I can't believe. Kim just said that, but I kind of dig that. She said that they don't say that out loud to you. They are still like I don't care, I don't want to do this dumb activity, but they sit there quietly and they watch and they are taking it in, you know. So it's like get more curious.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So if you have a parent or a clinician who's trying to reach a teenager, what are some of the things that you kind of use to help connecting with teenagers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you said, get silly, find ways to connect with them Again, whether it's music or sports or um media or whatever, whatever they're into.
Speaker 1:Connect on that level and once you've got that connection, once you're in, you're in with teenager, teenagers, yeah yeah, and as long as you don't do something real dumb, exactly, they generally are pretty like all all right, you're cool, I can get down with that, you know. Into it, and again, they're not going to maybe tell you that, but you can sense that you're like okay, gotcha, their body language, their whole attitude kind of lightens up.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is kind of my last thought, and then you know, I'll ask you if you have things that you, that we didn't get to. But one of the struggles well, I don't know if I say it's a struggle, but in training new clinicians, think, sometimes there are folks who struggle with understanding how much time it takes to get kids to talk about the things that they're in therapy for. So I've had clients who are eight years old and they come in and they're like, yeah, I hit my mom in the face, I shouldn't have done it, I was mad. And then I have other kids who I have to work for four or five sessions where we're just making paper airplanes or playing in the sand or playing with Legos and I'm teaching them how to be safe in my space. I'm teaching them that when they leave they have to clean up after themselves and then they get a prize from the prize box.
Speaker 1:But it takes I may not get to talk about the thing that they're there to talk about until session five. But I think sometimes it's tricky, for a number of reasons, for therapists who don't have quite as much experience in doing that, to walk away from session three and say we haven't once talked about mom and dad's divorce and I feel like I'm not doing enough and say we haven't once talked about mom and dad's divorce and I feel like I'm not doing enough. So how do you find that balance? Or how do you explain you know, either to kind of newer clinicians who maybe don't have experience working with kids or families how do you explain that process of getting kids to open up and using play as a means to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I go back to the doing is really the therapy. They never talk about mom and dad's divorce or the fight they had at school, but they may draw about it, or they may do a puppet show about two animals fighting, or they may play monkey in the middle yeah, things like that. And then again it's how we have to interpret it and make guesses, and that's okay, you know. And if I say to a kid monkey in the middle with your sibling, I wonder if that's kind of how you feel sometimes, like you're stuck in the middle between two worlds. Again, we're just floating it out there, we're not expecting a response. A lot of times we're planting seeds.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I mean I'm nodding ferociously with that also because I think it really is the message to hear that, with parenting, we're planting seeds With therapy with kids, frankly, even sometimes therapy with adults. But you know, we're just planting seeds and we may not get to see the harvest. You know, I don't always get to see the you know the fruit of some of those seeds that are planted. And sometimes, every so often, I'll get a parent that'll send me a message on Messenger or every so often I'll run into somebody and they'll say you know, you really helped me a lot back, you know, in the day or whatever. But we just have to stay grounded and knowing that that's the process and working with young kids, and actually teenagers too, is that we're just creating a safe space. You know you, earlier you said like we're just holding the space and we're allowing them to explore what's happening in their world right now through play One of my favorite lines is it's just something to think about.
Speaker 1:Just something to think about, and you want to think about it, you don't. You want to think about it right now. You want to think about it in three years, you just never know. You're on your own time. Yeah, hey, kim, is there anything that we missed? That? You're like we, we, I meant to say this, or I forgot to say this, or I want to make sure I say this.
Speaker 2:No, I think that covers a lot of working with parents, working with kids and, yeah, getting your foot in the door is the main part.
Speaker 1:I love that, all right. So how can people find you and the work that you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can check out my website butterflybeginningscounselingcom, and then all of our links are there.
Speaker 1:I love that so much. I'm so glad that you came. You said yes to being here today. I'm so grateful for you for being here today and listener. I'm grateful for you for tuning in today and until next time, stay safe and stay well, Ciao.
