Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Finding Your Own Path: What Schools Want Students to Know
THROWBACK episode! As I re-listened to this episode from my other podcast, I knew I needed to share it again here! As we approach the new school year, there are some really great reminders in this episode. Enjoy!
What do teachers and school administrators really want students to know? In this revealing conversation, Dr. Beth Trammell sits down with Katie Preston, a veteran school counselor with more than 14 years of experience and a background in social work. Together, they unpack three critical messages that can transform a student's educational experience.
"Asking for help is a strength, not a weakness" stands as the cornerstone of their discussion. Preston highlights how students often avoid questions fearing they'll appear unintelligent, when in reality, teachers eagerly welcome questions as signs of engagement and intellectual curiosity. This insight proves particularly valuable for parents who might inadvertently discourage question-asking at home while attempting to foster independence in their teens.
The conversation shifts to a profound reminder that "your education is about you, not about your friends." While social connections remain vital to school life, Preston emphasizes how students frequently make educational decisions based primarily on peer influence rather than personal fit. From course selections to extracurricular activities, following your unique path requires courage but ultimately leads to greater fulfillment and success.
Perhaps most powerfully, Preston challenges the notion that college represents the only valid post-secondary path. "College is not for everyone, but being educated is," she explains, validating multiple routes to meaningful careers and fulfilling lives. The essential element isn't a specific degree but rather continued growth, development, and learning appropriate to one's chosen field.
The episode concludes with a preview of a future discussion about parenting multiple children and honoring their different approaches to education and life planning. How can parents shift their expectations and communication styles to support each child's unique journey?
Join this insightful conversation that offers practical wisdom for students, parents, and educators alike. Subscribe to hear more conversations that help make your words matter in supporting young people's growth and development.
www.bethtrammell.com
okay, everyone. So we're back again and, um, this is dr beth trammell and I am a licensed psychologist and I am really excited about today because I have such an amazing guest on here with me today, my great, great friend and school counselor, katie Preston Girl, thanks for being here. I'm so happy you're here. You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. One of my favorite books is actually the Gift of Failure by Jessica Leahy, and in her book she talks a lot about the home school connection and the importance of allowing kids to fail. But really so much of it was written about the home school connection, parent, teacher connection, that sort of thing, and so I knew I needed to have some folks connected to the school to come and chat with us about what our kids need to know. So before we get to that, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and the work you do? And just one fun thing about yourself?
Speaker 2:Okay, that sounds great.
Speaker 2:Well, as Dr Trammell said, my name is Katie Preston and I am a professional school counselor at Yorktown Middle School and Yorktown High School.
Speaker 2:I am over the eighth and ninth graders is currently who I serve, but I've been at Yorktown for 14 years and before I took this new position as eighth and ninth grade counselor I was strictly middle school sixth through eighth grade and even before I became a school counselor because I'm a little older than most for just having 14 years in I was a social worker and I worked with hospice care and I also worked at a women's shelter for about 10 years before I became a school counselor. So one fun fact about myself is that I do have a little dog named Zeus, and it's kind of a fun fact that he, when people ask me my dog's name, it's a big, huge name, right for this tiny little dog. Well, my son named him. So I have two boys myself and one is 21 and one's 23. And so my youngest, who has a big sense of humor, thought he said that little dog needs a big name. So we named him Zeus, and he's about seven years old.
Speaker 2:He's a Yorkie Bichon mix and he's a perfect lap dog. Oh my gosh, I love that and I I don't think I ever heard that story, probably not. I used to actually be really scared of dogs until my husband, which you know. He was the canine officer for about 10 years and we had this big German shepherd. Believe it or not, this German shepherd won me over and I became a big dog lover and then we got our little uh, zeus dog because Nathan said we needed a lap dog.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:That's so fun. That's such a fun story. Yeah, and I've known you for so long and I didn't know that story. This is true, we've known each other like 16 or 17 years, that's true, it's so fun.
Speaker 1:You know we met and as I was getting my master's in counseling and you were getting your master's in school counseling, and it's what I mean. There's a lot of things I love about you, but I think the connection that you have to social work in the school building really gives you that background of mental health, you know, and just kind of like paying attention not just to the academic stuff but really the social, emotional stuff too.
Speaker 2:Right, well, it's such social work is such a systemic approach. Yeah, that really that's the first. You know way that when I got into doing social work and learning that approach, then when I went into school counseling it's like I still had the same thought process of it's systemic. You know, it's the whole child, it's a whole family, it's the whole everything. So I really do appreciate that about social work. You know, teaching me that at first and then going into school counseling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, you know, I think, as we think about kind of the title of what we're going to talk about today, you know kids these days really do need to know, even almost like an insider's look about what the teachers and school administrators expect of them or hope for them. So what are some of the things that you know based on your experience and based on your you know, working with teachers all the time and hearing from them. What are these? What do kids these days need to know?
Speaker 2:Well, there's lots of things, but you said top three, so we need to get kind of, you know, shorter than you know an hour Top million that I could share. I actually did reach out to some of my favorite educators just because I felt like I didn't want to just pigeon and math teachers to get their view, and so I took all of what they had and just kind of made three themes that I felt like were most important right now for students to know.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So starting with the first one, I feel like is, to me, the biggest thing. Asking for help is a strength, it's not a weakness. And I think so many kids think, oh my goodness, if I ask for help, it's going to show that I'm weak, or it's going to show that I'm not smart. The teacher's going to think I'm dumb. Where, in reality, is all of us teachers, educators? We all feel like we want you to ask for help. You know, in fact, probably there's going to be 10 other people in the room that have the same question, or you know, don't know exactly what you don't know. So if you ask, then we're actually teaching everyone again and being able to answer that question. I know so many of our teachers too, like they are there, they want to help you, they want to be there before school for you, they want to be there after school, they want to answer an email. They just want to help you. So ask for that.
Speaker 1:You know it's so interesting it has. It has just occurred to me right now that right in elementary school, our kids ask lots of questions at home. Like I'm thinking as a parent, yeah, that my kids ask lots of questions when they're little elementary age, but as they get older I am pushing them to be more independent at home, right, so I'm pushing them basically to stop asking so many questions. I could see that.
Speaker 2:I mean it does happen, though I do. I know what you're saying. You're like try to figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yes, as you're saying this, it's just striking me that, like I probably still need to preach like intentionally preach at home, you still need to ask questions of your teachers, or you still need to ask questions of me if you don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even while I'm teaching independence absolutely, and I actually think this is my personal opinion. I can't say there's scientific proof behind it, but we go through these like when we're, you know, k, kindergarten, through probably sixth and seventh grade. We will ask questions. Then we go through this time of sixth through probably sixth grade, so 12 years old to, I would say, 35 and 40 years old, even maybe, like we don't want to ask the questions because we could look stupid. I don't want to look stupid. That's humility, that's embarrassing, that fear of thing that we go through. And then when you get a little bit older even I know we're not talking to older adults necessarily right now, but you start going. There's so much power and freedom and going, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know, what I don't know. Let me ask a question and I think that there is so much power and I want kids to know that at ages of you know, 13, 14, 15, it's powerful to say ages of you know 13, 14, 15, it's powerful to say no, I don't know. Let me ask a question, let me ask this person that, because we can't have all the answers, people are experts in their fields.
Speaker 1:For a reason, let them be that. Yeah, I think that's so brilliant and really like I had never really thought about it. And now, as as a middle school counselor right, and you're talking to other middle school teachers and high school teachers it makes sense that the emphasis is ask a question. Yes, you know, because our elementary teachers are probably like, yeah, that may not have been the first thing on their mind to tell, to tell folks right now. Right, but middle school and high school it is. It is reminding kids it's okay to ask questions and it is a sign of strength right.
Speaker 1:Not weakness, and and I you know I'm I'm pulling in the parenting stuff from my perspective too that it's like, yeah, because I'm not, I'm not modeling that and I am not emphasizing that at home for that age group because, like I said, I have it in my head that I want them to be independent and they shouldn't ask questions. Right, maybe that's not what, maybe that's not all I should be doing be good to Stephen say, hey, I love your question.
Speaker 2:Let's see how we can answer it. That way, then you start empowering them to think about how to answer it or who they could ask would be best to ask. I don't know, but yeah, some of that stuff they kids do have to think on their own and sometimes they're quick to ask without trying to figure it out on their own. But more than anything, we want them to ask.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's great. Okay, ask a question. It's a sign of strength. It's not a sign of weakness.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Number two. Your education is about you, it's not about your friends. While having a social life, it is a huge part of your school and life and I am certainly one to say I remember so much about my social life in middle school and high school and that's a big deal. We're learning so much from social interactions and we want that. But your education is something that no one can take from you and it's going to have more of an impact on your future than your friends will. It really will, and what you do with it. You know, taking the classes that fit you and doing your work and following your path and figuring out what your strengths are is bigger than going with what your friends are doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I'm just sitting here nodding over and over. I'm like a little bobblehead, as you're saying all those things, you know. I'm just like yes, yes, yes, and that's so hard for middle school and high schoolers, right?
Speaker 2:Oh hard. I hear all the time with like right now we're going through class selection time. You know where kids have to put in for high school, what they want to take. You know those extra electives and you know they're talking to their friends and what are you going to do? And you know sometimes even like those higher level classes, that they're you know they can take certain kids can take and it's like, oh, but my friend's not taking that. I don't know that. I want to do it. It's like you know what. And even vice versa, sometimes kids that really don't need to be taking their their fit for just taking you know that math class and not the AP math class or whatever. But that's a good fit for them because maybe math's not their strength, maybe English is and they need to be in. You know that higher level English, who knows? But like trying to fit themselves in that because their friend is instead of going. You know what? That's not my strength.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is this over here. Or you know, I love drama and I'm going to do drama, because I'm going to do drama club, because I love it and I'm not gonna worry that my friends are make fun of me, because I actually do love that. You know, those are things that they need to think about.
Speaker 1:You know it's so interesting. I feel like it also comes back again to doing what's best for you is also a sign of strength.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like it feels like it's kind of coming back to that too, where if you have the courage to do the uncomfortable you know being in a class with all your friends may be more comfortable than taking a class that you may be in a class with people you don't know as well, but it's the right fit for you. Being able to do that, having the courage to do that, is absolutely a sign of strength.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and it's hard. It's not easy to step out of where you don't know people when we know that, but at the same point in time, like for you to say, hey, I know this about myself and I'm going to explore that and do that is, like you said, a shine of strength in, in knowing you and following your path, versus just being concerned about what your friends are doing yeah, and I can imagine conversations between parents and teens where the parent is just saying to their teenager like be like picking classes because you want to be with your friends.
Speaker 1:That's stupid and that might not be actually helpful in getting your kid to be convinced to change their mind. Right? Actually not a stupid idea. No, it's actually a very logical idea because we've taught our kids to be social beings. We've taught our kids to want to be around their friends Right, so for them to want to choose that want to be around their friends Right, so for them to want to choose that may not be stupid, but I think a parent may be able to say you know what? Let's look at the decisions you're making and what decisions are best for you. Even though I know what you want to do is hang out with your friends at school, what is the best decision for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, let's look at what you are interested in and the classes that line up with that. And let's look at what you are interested in and the classes that line up with that and you know what, at the end of the day, there's a likelihood that they could take a class you know that would be common with their friends, you know, or something but they're going to have lunch time, they're going to have hallway time. I mean, there is time with friends and social interaction. So I think more reasoning it with kids than just, like you said, saying that's dumb. Yeah, because it's not. It actually does make a lot of sense. Yeah, I think it.
Speaker 1:I think I'm always trying to help parents see that opening the door and continuing the conversation is always better than just trying to put the hammer down and say that's dumb or we're not doing that. We're doing it my way as the parent in charge. It's just not going to be met with the kind of reaction we want. Correct yeah, I love that. Okay, so your education is about you, not about your friends and what your friends think is best for you. Right, it's about your path.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that what your friends think is best for you. Right, it's about your path. Yes, I love that, your path, your path. Okay, the last one college is not for everyone, but being educated is so if you want future successes. The key is to be educated in what that is.
Speaker 2:So we understand not everyone is going to go to college or not. Everybody wants to go to college and that is absolutely okay. What is not okay is choosing to not be educated. So what we're saying is let's show up, let's learn, in whatever capacity that is. You know, even most jobs after high school. If you're saying, I'm not going to go to college, have some sort of teaching aspect, you know, let's go to high school and learn, get that diploma After high school. Whatever you choose to do, go and learn and be educated and do your best. You know, I mean that that's all we're asking. Be successful, whatever you're choosing. We know college is not for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and it's so interesting how all of them kind of tie together. It seems. You know, it's like again, it's what is your path Exactly? You know, and I find, and I think you probably would too, but you know, let me know what you think. But there becomes a struggle for both parents and teens when they don't know the end of the path, Right, so they're like I don't know what I want to do, I don't know what I want to study, I don't know where I want to go to college. And it's not really that you have to know what's at the end of your path to keep walking down your path, Correct, Right? Yeah, that it's like. I feel like sometimes parents get so caught up in making sure their teenager knows what's the end of their path instead of just continuing to encourage growth along the path.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, and seeing where that leads. I mean, I've always felt like, you know, being 16 and 17, it's so young to know what do I want to do with my future. Yeah, and I'm a great example of you can change your career path in your 30s. Yeah, you can go back and you go back to school and I had little kids. I had a five and seven year old. I went back and got my master's. I mean, you can change it.
Speaker 2:You know, what's most important is being able to continue on the path, not to get stuck and stopped, but continue being educated, continue having successes, whatever that may be. If you're not going, if you're going to graduate high school and you're going to right away, take a job great, you know great, you're earning money and maybe after five years you may say I'm going to go back to college. Or I'm going to go to college, or maybe you won't. Maybe you're making enough money for yourself that you're happy and you love your job. That's what we want, you know. Be successful, be happy. You know, not one size fits all. We know this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love the idea. I mean, I talk about paths a lot and you know, just like, as long as you're moving and making steps towards growth, and so I even try to talk with parents about okay, so what is their next growth edge? You know, maybe they don't know how to do laundry. Yes, that's fine If you're. If you have a kid or a teen who isn't quite sure what the end path or the end goal looks like, I try to just focus on what are the continued growth areas for them. That's going to make you feel like they're still growing. So maybe they don't have a bank account Start with a bank account. Maybe they don't know how to cook macaroni. Like, teach those skills towards growth, because that is moving down the path.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, that is going to go somewhere to serve them. Those skills, those life skills are going to serve them in the future. Yeah, no matter what, and I think that's super important.
Speaker 1:And that's the. That's sort of the take home message you're saying, right? Is that like it's about being educated, not necessarily just you're going to go to college?
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, it's about whatever it is you're choosing to do be educated in that, whatever it is, and be open to learning. And keep learning, always keep learning. I'm still learning Me too.
Speaker 1:I love it. I always describe myself as a lifelong learner.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean that's that will serve you best in the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Okay, so if you have you know, is there, is there one thing that you know is kind of your take home message, or one thing that maybe we didn't touch on yet?
Speaker 2:as we kind of wrap up, I mean I think we said it over and over again in that, you know, everybody needs to have their own individual path and be following that path, whatever that may be, and keep moving on that path.
Speaker 2:I mean, some days you might be skipping, some days you might be running on the path and you know what. Some days you might be absolutely crawling. And when I say that I mean like you know exactly where you're going on that path. Some days you're just like running to it. Other days you you know that you're going to keep going, but you're just not sure where the end is. So you're just going slowly because you got to figure this out, you know, and so that's okay. But let's keep going on your own way and figure out your own path.
Speaker 1:You know something that just came up. I know I just said we're almost done, but I think about this from two perspectives One, as a parent of multiple kids, and that what the older kid did isn't necessarily doesn't even have to be what all the other kids behind them do. And so when you said it's your individual path, you know it's okay if it looks different than another path. I think about those parents who may inadvertently like they don't even realize that they're trying to put their second and third and fourth kid in the same path that their older, the oldest, absolutely yes. And then and we probably don't have time for all this, but we probably should do this another time is that sibling stuff right that?
Speaker 2:that like we can have a whole segment on that.
Speaker 2:Because let me tell you, my two boys being same parents two years apart, I can tell you right now they both learn things so differently, they both approach life so differently.
Speaker 2:And when we're talking about your own path, they both, they both approach their own paths so differently. Like one knew by the time that he was six years old what he wanted to do, follow. The other one was like I don't really know, and yeah, oh, the sun's shining, oh, there's a bird, you know, and so it was just like, but he kept moving, I mean, he kept going to school and doing, but yeah, and even just as a parent approaching that, we my husband and I had two big, big, big time discussions I can think of when it was like, if you continue to parent and approach the path of this second one like the first one, you're going to crush the spirit. That spirit is going to be crushed, you're going to crush who he is. You're going to crush that path. Yep, for both of us, we both had to learn how to be different and know that his way of his path is a different way of approaching and going along it than our older one. So absolutely I mean so different.
Speaker 1:I know you know what we are. It already has come to me that we're going to talk about our dreams for our kids, our multiple kids, and how we, as parents, have to shift our perspective. Yes, because I think it's critical and I know for sure I'm guilty of it and my kids are still sort of little, but I can see how powerful that kind of discussion could be between parents right, and saying you can't keep pushing this way, because that's what we do as parents, right, we want to encourage them, we see their potential, we see the things they could do and we just want to kind of push in this direction.
Speaker 2:And our kids are saying I don't want that path, right, I don't need, I don't want that path. And, furthermore, you continuing to light a fire like that, that kind of way doesn't work for me. You know I need this. I know and you know like I have one child who needs. You know that he needs that in your face, like you could do this. Yeah, the other one is more like so what do you think? How are you, what are you feeling about that?
Speaker 2:You know, it's just so different and that approach even needs to be that way.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we're going to do another one.
Speaker 1:That'll'll be a different episode and I am so excited about it because it it is so necessary. So, for anyone who um is new and would like to follow on Facebook uh, my Facebook for Make Words Matter is MWM with kids. Make Words Matter. Mwm with kids. Make words matter. Mwm with kids, and my website is wwwmakewordsmatterforgoodcom. And, katie, I am thrilled to have had you share all of this with with us. I know there's so many little nuggets that people are going to be able to walk away with and what just valuable insight for us to know about teachers and administrators and what are you know what we need our kids to know these days. So, thank you for being here, thank you for being with us, and I'm excited for the next one.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I am too. I'm so excited. Thanks for having me and letting me share what we feel like kids need to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's excellent. Okay, until next time, we'll see ya.
