Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 141: Are You Okay Enough Now? with Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler
What if the most powerful therapy happens not in "safe spaces," but in "brave spaces"? This game-changing conversation with Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler, a licensed professional counselor from Colorado, challenges our fundamental understanding of the therapeutic relationship.
Barbara introduces us to the profound concept of brave space through Micky ScottBey Jones's poem, which begins: "Together we will create brave space, because there is no such thing as a safe space." This perspective shift transforms how therapists approach their work—moving from attempting to create perfect safety to fostering courage and resilience alongside their clients.
Using the powerful metaphor of a lighthouse, Barbara explains how therapists can maintain their steady presence while clients navigate the rocky waters of their emotional experiences. Rather than rushing to rescue clients from their struggles, therapists can provide a constant beacon that helps clients find their own way back to regulation. This approach honors clients' innate capacity for healing while preventing therapist burnout.
The distinction between heroism and courage emerges as a central theme. "Heroism is when I go slay your dragon," Barbara explains, "while courage and being brave is watching you slay your own dragon." This perspective empowers clients to develop true self-agency rather than dependency on the therapist. Similarly, the simple addition of the word "enough" when asking "Are you okay enough now?" acknowledges that healing happens incrementally and gives clients permission to be works in progress.
For therapists and anyone in helping roles, this conversation offers a sustainable approach to supporting others without sacrificing your own well-being. Learn why authentic presence matters more than perfect technique, and how creating brave spaces allows both therapists and clients to show up more fully in the healing journey.
For more about Barbara's incredible work, check out her website: Meet Barbara - Creative & Caring Counseling
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel, and I'm a psychologist and a person who loves to do my best to make words matter for good. In my daily life, in my clinical practice and the things that I do to try to help other people increase connection between one another and, in particular, between adults and kids, but also between adults and adults and, frankly, even kids and kids. Most of my clinical practice was in doing a lot of work with kids and families, and I am so, so glad that my guest came back and is with me today, and this topic today actually is something that I'm still working on, but have definitely had better moments with this topic, both personally and professionally, and so I am just so, so thrilled. Barbara, you said yes to coming back today. Can you introduce yourself and tell us something fun that's going on for you right now?
Speaker 2:Beth, thank you for inviting me back. I really enjoyed our first conversation and hello everybody. My name is Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler. I am a licensed professional counselor based out of Littleton Colorado, and some of my professional credentials include being an EMDR approved trainer, approved consultant and, of course, certified IFS levels one and two and somatic IFS certified. I'm very happy to report that I'm getting an IFS level three done in this year, 2025. I know I'm so excited. I am also an international speaker. This year I spoke in Costa Rica, next year I'll be speaking in Portugal, and part of what I do is I see clients, individual adult clients individually.
Speaker 2:My lens is, first and foremost, adaptive information processing. We adapt to survive, polyvagal theory, how we can regulate and co-regulate, and then the modalities I use include enderotherapy, sand play or sand scenes, internal family systems, psychogenic and a lot of experiential. On a personal side, I'm a grandmother to three now we had a new one. Oh my gosh, I know it sucks, it's a fun, it's a cure. And then I'm married to my boyfriend. I think we're at 43 years now.
Speaker 2:So I have a very full and balanced life between personal and professional, and I find that to be really important because I love to give and I need to receive. So yeah, that's a little bit about me on both sides of me. I love that's the wrong descriptor. I get energized when I see integration happen, when I see resilience be realized. I get excited about life and living and vitality when I see people remember who they really are and they go instead of adapt to survive, which thumbs up yeah, we do. We get to readapt to thrive. And when I can be any part of that transition, I'm good. I'm so good.
Speaker 1:Just as you're talking like and this happened the last time too when there are a few guests that come on, that I am just like fangirling, you know. I'm like I'm having like chills. As you're describing this process, I couldn't agree more in that it's such the gift that we therapists get to be a part of that journey. I mean, it's just it's a really hard thing to describe to people like how honored I feel to be a part of that.
Speaker 2:I feel to be a part of that. Yeah, I get a lot of people say to me because when they hear that I work with complex trauma, I work with developmental trauma, pre-verbal trauma, I work with trauma, they're like, oh my gosh, that must be so hard. And I'm like but that's one perspective. And my perspective is I get to A be the person that goes into the shadow. I get to be the person that hears the unspeakable. I get to A be the person that goes into the shadow. I get to be the person that hears the unspeakable. I get to be that person. And then B, I get to be that person that sees them remember and reclaim their voice, their choice, their life again. So that's my perspective.
Speaker 2:It is an honor and a privilege to be that person. It's amazing. So, yeah, I love what I get to do and I love mentoring people. Part of what I do, in addition to the individual people, is I mentor clinicians. I do lots of, lots and lots of trainings and consultations and agency work, where I go into an agency and maybe share some bits and pieces to help them feel energized about the field, because it can be exhausting. It can be if you're not in the right vibration if you're not in the right lane.
Speaker 1:And I mean I just love your perspective that it always lives in them. Right, this truth always lives in them and the way you describe it is you're just helping them remember it and helping them kind of find it again or realize it again. It's not that it's something that has been taken away from them, it's always there. It's just uncovering it.
Speaker 2:Truly, we adapt to survive. So if one of the things like oh, when I hear that door slam, that way to survive, I have to be small and quiet and not speak up and I have to disallow my feelings, great, you survived. Awesome. And then in therapy, when they're still having those same patterns of behavior, we can readapt. Oh, you heard a door slam. You don't have to instinctually get small and quiet. You can do it differently. Now you can readapt for today, and then today, maybe it's a different way of thriving and living. So we adapt to survive, we readapt and thrive, and that's what we get to do interesting because this segue into the topic today feels like one that you know.
Speaker 1:You sort of were like hey, you know, here are a couple of ideas that we might talk about, and we kind of tossed things back and forth.
Speaker 1:I'm actually really happy that we landed on this topic of bravery, because I think I feel that from you, when I'm in this space with you right, I feel like this is something not that you are just talking about as a theoretical idea or a philosophical idea. It's sort of like again, like lives and breathes kind of you, and so you're precisely the right person to talk about this. But I also think we're kind of in a day, so you're precisely the right person to talk about this. But I also think we're kind of in a day and age right now, where I think bravery is something that not everyone has perhaps the greatest lens toward or idea about, or they think, well, I've had all these experiences and I'm not sure I can be brave, or hey, being brave is what other people are. It's just not necessarily ever been me, and so I'm just so thrilled that we're going to get a chance to talk about this today. So how did you sort of start in kind of this work or this lens, or realizing this was something that was important.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate that question because there is a start point. I was at my IFS level one training in early 2020 and they read a poem and the poem is by Mickey Scott Bay Jones and it's called An Invitation to Brave Space. And it rocked my world because the first three lines I'm going to read, the first three lines, or four lines, from Mickey Scott Bay Jones's poem. Together we will create brave space, because there is no such thing as a safe space. We exist in the real world. We all carry scars and all have caused wounds. In this space, we will turn down the volume of the outside world. We will amplify the voices that fight to be heard elsewhere. We call for each other to more truth and love. We have the right to start somewhere and continue to grow. So those are just the first few lines. It goes on and on and on, but the first few lines.
Speaker 2:Safe space, because I was taught, barbara, be a safe person, be a safe person, be a safe person and then, in reality, person. Be a safe person, be a safe person and then, in reality, I am a safe person. I hope that my nervous system communicates you're safe with me, no matter what. I take that responsibility to heart. But safe space. I never know and you don't either, beth know when we're going to cross into. Oops, I'm in a triggered zone. Oops, I'm reliving. Oops, I'm lost, I'm dissociated. We never know when that's going to happen and that doesn't feel safe. But I can be brave with you, I can be a lighthouse with you. I can maintain my regulation for you that even if you're not feeling safe, I'll be there to help you come back to that feeling of safe again. I mean.
Speaker 2:I take a moment Like what do you think about those words from Nikki Scuffing Jones? Right, it's a great poem.
Speaker 1:I just slammed my pen down, but I mean it really is like a mic drop moment and it's only the beginning, you know. I mean I found myself again just really connecting with so many of those ideas around, and training were taught to be a safe space you know, but it's a really strange phenomenon to think how do I do that right?
Speaker 1:Like? I think I do that by trying to get people to trust me and I try to be open about my philosophy. In therapy I try to be genuine and likable, to get people to feel safe, but I love this sort of nod to safety is something we also do together.
Speaker 2:And we never know when it's going to be breached. Yeah, like I will maintain my safety towards you, but I never know when your sense of safety will be breached. That's right. I just don't know, especially when we're doing trauma work. Right, in that moment, in that moment where safety is breached not on my end, at least consciously not on my end but when safety is breached because we're doing trauma work, we're going to be brave together, right?
Speaker 2:I often have this visual of a lighthouse and a boat and really rocky, rocky waters, rocky rocky waters, and I am the lighthouse and my client is out there in that rocky, rocky water. Now, it doesn't help if I should go over there and try to rescue them because I could get lost in the rocky water, but if I stay here as the lighthouse, constantly sending out a signal of here I am, here's safety, throwing out that connection of association and trusting their nervous system that they'll find their way, and maybe I meet, maybe I do five or six or seven different things to create that connection of association, but they'll find their way. So I am a safe person. That is my vibration, and I never know. When it doesn't feel safe, then I'm brave with them. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yes, so I think what we're talking about here, and maybe today, is that therapy is about bravery from the client and from the therapist.
Speaker 2:right, that's sort of what you're suggesting Definitely, and when the client, when the therapist can stay in that visual of the lighthouse. Because when I work with therapists and I'm listening and maybe in a consultation environment, I'm like, oh, what was your reason to go do that thing? Yeah, to go, do that. If you will rescue to do that, let me calm you down, let me make it better what was going on for you. And when we get to the root of it, it's like I was afraid. I was so afraid for me, for them, I was afraid. I'm like, well, let's talk about your fear, because when you can be with your own fear, then you'll be able to be spacious for their growth. And sometimes growth is messy and ugly and hard. And I'm not saying we abandon, we're consistently there, we just don't rescue.
Speaker 1:It is such a hard thing to train. Now tell me more about that one.
Speaker 1:Well, so you you know doing consultation with either kind of newer clinicians or, I think, even veteran clinicians sometimes all over the place and I mean, I remember moments where I was like man, I am not sure how I'm going to get my way out of this with a client, you know, and that narrative around therapy people come to therapy because they need help. I think about some of the trainees that I have had in the past. I think about myself as a trainee where that metaphor I love this metaphor of the lighthouse and people being kind of in the boat in rocky waters, you know, and it's like I think sometimes people feel like, well, if I'm just staying here as a lighthouse, how am I helping them?
Speaker 1:I mean like that, that idea of like helping train people, get them to understand that the, the security, the steadiness of the lighthouse doesn't mean I'm letting them continue to suffer. But what you said is am I can't go out to the sea with you because I can't get lost in the sea too.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and here's my beacon of light. And so maybe, like in the, in the real world, maybe that beacon of light, taking the analogy, is my prosodic voice, here with you. Or maybe the beacon of light is would you like water? Or maybe the beacon of light is are you okay enough now? He's like I'm connecting with you and not rescuing you, not rushing toward, because eventually, don't we all want our clients to be their own resiliency? Don't we all want our clients to figure out and have their own self agency? Right, self agency equates self-determination. When I can be my, my, the captain of my own ship, then I know where I'm going and I know how to ride these rough waters, because our job is to eventually successfully discharge our clients. But if I keep rescuing them, what is that telling their nervous system? So that idea, though. But I'm there with you. And then, sometimes, I say nothing, but just my regular breath yeah, right, and that's me managing my nervous system. Goodness, beth, I've been scared to tears sometimes, but I manage my nervous system.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I breathe, I push my feet down. Maybe I'll do a little personal aromatherapy. I manage my nervous system because it might be freaking out and I'm like, yeah, we're not there yet, I don't have to rush. They're figuring, freaking out and I'm like, yeah, we're not there yet, I don't have to rush, they're figuring it out. I have, we're okay, hang in there, barbara, we're okay. So I have to do my own self-talk as I let my clients have that sense of undoing aloneness, like inside they might be freaking out and they know they're not alone and they're figuring it out.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's so much good in what? You're saying I mean, I'm trying to figure out which of the good I want to like focus on first, but like just it feels good, right I mean, or does it feel like too much pressure?
Speaker 1:no question, what does it feel like? Well, okay, yeah, so I have a story about that, tell me. And I also am like, listen, if the amazing barbara still has moments where her nervous system right. I mean, I think there's so much value in hearing from other therapists who are like, yeah, sometimes in my mind I am like holy mackerel, you know, my body is going off and I need the regulation strategies that I'm training everyone to have to.
Speaker 2:Welcome to being human. Yeah, but I think one of our responsibilities, and dare I say an ethical responsibility, is for the therapist to know their system.
Speaker 2:So very, very, very, very well, oh they're blind spots, to know their biases, to know their stories, to know their system. So, very, very, very, very well, know their blind spots, to know their biases, to know their stories, to know their triggers. I think it's an ethical responsibility, and I mean ethical because I need to stay out of the way of the client's work. That's the way I operate Really. They have everything they need. I just need to give it a little water so it can grow. And that's where I'm like yeah, I got to know myself so well in the deeper I know myself. Oh, this is, this is a pretty cool. I was like the more clear I am with myself, the more clear I can be with and around you, and the more space I have in myself, the more space I can have within around you.
Speaker 1:So it's really important to me and I mean it's just. I mean I just can't say enough like how true what you're saying is that the like understanding every sort of part of me and how I operate and how I become anxious, and what I'm triggered by and what my biases are and how my thought processes interject and shift my facial expressions or whatever it's like. The best therapists are deeply, deeply aware and deeply committed to continually learning, to continue to be aware, because just because I was aware of who I was and what my triggers were 10 years ago doesn't mean that that's true to who I am today. And so I think this deep commitment to continuing to learn, not just about the field which, oh, by the way, ms Barbara, you also very much are very committed to like learning new things in the field but also you know things about you to become a better you as a mechanism for those things within the field, Beautiful, a mechanism of those things, beautiful, agreed.
Speaker 2:So this really is one of those qualities in grad school.
Speaker 2:Are you a lifelong learner? Yes, I am, and my learning goes not only to my intellect, not only to my prefrontal, but also down from my brainstem, down, like to who I am and my triggers and things like that space where I hold that silence and I stay so present that it's palpable, where, when I'm listening, I'm so deeply, deeply listening that the client, maybe for the first time ever, sheds tears of joy because they actually feel heard. We there's so much to communication that is beyond words and when we can bring that in the room, we're creating brave space. And, like when I'm showing up in brave space, it invites my clients to additionally be brave. So if somebody has like an experience of learned helplessness or in the Karpman drama triangle, you know, like the victim, I the victimology, and I show up in brave space and I see their resiliency Guess what they get to see their resiliency through my eyes. They get to feel their own sense of agency through this dynamic, because I could tolerate the upheaval if you will, and that's awesome, right.
Speaker 1:So awesome. And I want to come back to what you said earlier, because I think sometimes we think brave means I'm going to like grab my pitchfork and I'm going to like drive in there, I'm going to be. You know like brave sometimes is misunderstood. What you got, a book, you're ready, go brave versus heroism to be the hero to be the hero. Go, tell me more oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So this is a book. The power of the soul living the 12 virtues by robert sordello. Okay, this is the book, and one of of these is the virtue of courage. I know that I practice courage to be brave, but I'm nobody's hero. Yeah hero is coming in and in slaying that person's dragon Courage, and brave is watching you slay your own dragon.
Speaker 1:Oh wait, say it again Courage and brave. Are you watching you slay your own dragon? Oh wait, say it again courage and brave. Are you watching you slay your own dragon?
Speaker 2:so when I, when I tap into my courage and I am brave, I watch you slay your dragon I'm there cheering you on, I'm there reminding you of things you might have forgotten. Heroism, though, is when I go slay your dragon. Now, what is therapy? So good, so good.
Speaker 1:So good, so good. Yes, and I have been kind of working with a spiritual director in my own kind of personal life and I sometimes find myself in consultation at different schools or different classrooms or in different kind of situations where I'm kind of called into chaotic spaces where I'm kind of like going from one space to the next space, to the next space and to the next space, and I was really struggling with burnout and I've come to realize, with the work of a spiritual director, has reminded me that EMTs hardly rush anywhere.
Speaker 1:And I share this story that we had a situation that I was in not too long ago and we were waiting for an ambulance to come and and it was, you know, it wasn't like a fatal situation, it was just kind of an emergent situation and the emergency came, or the ambulance came, and they kind of got out of their truck and they walked around to the back and they opened the door and they got their clipboard and they kind of came around and it was like at this pace, barbara and meanwhile my pace is like, okay, come on, let's go, we got to go, let's get.
Speaker 1:And I realized the power of that. And I think, in this idea of brave space, it's like sometimes, when we feel a certain thing, whether it's oh, I see this person and they're in the rocky boat out there by themselves and I feel powerless, or, back to your point, like understanding the root of what situations, if they're not rushing, I don't have to rush, either in these kind of emotional situations where my client feels very overwhelmed or the people that I'm around feel really overwhelmed. It's like brave space says I can show up in a regulated state, like you, like you started, okay. So what y'all can't see is that, as I was saying this next word, barbara starts, like connecting her core to say you know. So, okay, tell me what you're. Tell me what you're saying now no, that that is the thing.
Speaker 2:Somebody needs to be regulated here, because when we are dysregulated, what type of decisions will we make? Yeah, right, when we are regulated or when we are co regulating, now we're going to be in the wholeness of the experience and not the reaction. Now, sometimes I need to be, you know, reactionary, but if it's not life or death, so when you show up in this calm, connected, compassionate clarity, fairly really clear headed, clear body, clear minded, well, now we're holding on the space. So, what a great story about the EMTs. And then let's go back to the burnout, because when we operate from here here, meaning when I operate from flow state, when I operate from deep connection to resiliency, whatever, whatever you want to call it, I'm going to be fully present with you and I'm not going to take on your story. I'm going to witness your story, not take it on. We don't do burnout because I'm my own self-energy.
Speaker 2:So great analogy about the EMTs, great visual, how they go, slow, purposeful, maybe they're walking in, trusting. You know, yes, it's going to take attention, but it's not an emergency of life or death. Yeah, part of bravery is going back to my levels, you know AIP, pv, adaptive information processing polyvagal theory. These two are the basis of the work. If I'm not in my own ventral vagal state, then how am I really showing up?
Speaker 1:Not the way is the best you can.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I may add to the problem, not take away from the problem. And so, yeah, showing up brave. This poem by Mickey Scott Bay Jones just changed my paradigm, because I always thought safe, safe, safe, safe, safe. And I'm not negating safe, yeah. But what I am saying is can we be brave, can I show up so brave that it encourages my client to remember they too have their own bravery? Yeah, yeah. So it's a pretty amazing thing. Can I read the last four lines from the poem? Yes, so this is just the beginning of the poem, and now it's the end of the poem.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so let's see, we amplify the voices that fight to be heard elsewhere. Now, think about being in your therapy room. Think about put on that lens of I'm in my therapy room and my client's coming in for support of some type. We amplify the voices that fight to be heard elsewhere. We call for each other to more truth and love. We have the right to start somewhere and to continue to grow. We have the responsibility to examine what we think. We know we will not be perfect. This space will not be perfect, it will not always be what we wish it to be, but it will be our brave space together and we will work on it side by side.
Speaker 1:I just can't say enough, like just how powerful that is. You know, I just can't say enough, how powerful that is.
Speaker 2:We will work on it side by side.
Speaker 1:We will work on it side by side.
Speaker 2:We will work on it side by side. I see you and I see all of you. I see what maybe you can't see just yet. I see your resiliency, your courage, your adaptability. I see you and let's do this together Because again, in trauma world there is such an aloneness, there's such an isolation.
Speaker 2:And when I see you and, by the way, accept you as you are and see the potential where you want to go, it is just remarkable. So brave space begins with the clinician doing their work so that they can stay not rescuing doing their work so that they can stay not rescuing, but be that lighthouse. And then where's my head hurt? Let me slow down a minute because I'm so excited to be with you and it does take work. I go to three consultation groups a month. I've been in the field since 2008. Part of my self-care is doing my own work personally, as well as in consultation groups with my mentors and my teachers. It's an ever-growing process. Like you said earlier, it's not stagnant at all.
Speaker 1:I want to go back to something else you said earlier. That's probably just like who you are, naturally, but it just struck me so much that I wrote it down and I want to repeat it here toward the end Are you okay enough now? You didn't say. Are you okay now? What didn't you say Are you okay now?
Speaker 2:that word enough gives us permission to not be a hundred percent. Yes, that word enough gives us permission like I'm more okay than not okay, and that's that's enough. That's enough. I think it was dick schwartz that that said. Ifs richard schwartz think he said we only need enough self-energy in the room to go forward and enough is enough. I am not looking for perfection and I think adding that word enough invites the client to relax that it's not 100% Does that resonate. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean. That's why I'm coming back to it, because I think the message that I would hear if I were a client is Barbara knows that I'm not okay, but she also knows that I can be strong and resilient, even at just this just a little bit enough state. You know, like that word, you're so right. If there's anything that a clinician walks away from this episode with, I really feel like that question by itself is so powerful. Are you okay enough now?
Speaker 2:And the word now, because that's all we have Lately. When I introduced myself, I'm like I'm a here and now therapist. You know how some people say I'm a psychodynamic, I'm a here and now therapist because, all we have is now, and I want to go back to what you said. I never thought about how it would impact my client, so thank you for sharing that that within the client psyche they might see just what you said.
Speaker 2:Barbara sees that I'm struggling and I'm okay enough and both can be true and both are true so many times and we can be with that profound truth. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't put that together.
Speaker 1:Barbara. I mean, there's just so much good that you have to share with the world. I'm just so grateful that you're like that. You're so brave, truly, barbara, that you're brave at putting things out there like this, and the training in the worldwide speaking that you're getting to do, because I try to train the therapists that are my supervisees that therapy and you said this too, that it's like therapy is so much about who you are more than like the words you say, though I am a word person and I basically just said, like if you add the word enough and the word now, it matters so much more. But anyway, words matter.
Speaker 2:Words matter. Be mindful of your words. I don't want to minimize that Exactly, but keep going, go ahead.
Speaker 1:But at the core of kind of who you are, that part just matters so much too, and so I just, you know, when I get to spend time with you, I get to share space with you, I just feel your energy toward kind of one moment at a time really changing, changing people's lives, and I just I'm just so grateful for the work you're doing. I just don't know how else to say it.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel privileged to do the work I do, right, I and I try and take the privileges that I have and I and I acknowledge and I bring it forward so that many, many, like if I get to this opportunity to do this thing, I want to be a dandy. The other day I was working with a client outside. It was beautiful and we picked dandelion things and we both blew the dandelions with a wish yeah, and my wish was I just want to take my privilege, what I know, who I am, et cetera, et cetera, and spread it and, if it helps, my privilege, what I know who I am, et cetera, et cetera, and spread it and if it helps, fantastic.
Speaker 2:So I just want to blow dandelions and spread the good stuff. And something comes to mind when you were just talking. It reminded me of a quote from Rogers or Jung, from Carl Jung I might be misquoting a little bit like know all the theories, know all the techniques, know all the stuff, but then really, when you are with another human person, when you touch a human soul, just be a human soul. So I'm not negating the depth and breadth of knowledge. I value it In the moment. Be genuine. Have the courage to be real. I'm very transparent With my clients. I will cry. Have the courage to be real.
Speaker 2:I'm very transparent with my clients. I will cry with my clients. I will say I feel so sad and so many of my clients reflect back and say no one's ever told me it's okay to be sad about that. So brave means to feel and be real. Keeping it about the client, that's right. Those things, that's right. But to show your humanness and that comes with my comfortability with my story. I'm very comfortable in my story and it doesn't trigger me. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it goes back to what you said earlier, that the healing in us, like understanding and deeply knowing ourselves, has to be the start of it.
Speaker 2:Has to be the start of it. Whenever I'm teaching an EMDR class or a polyvagal class, or even an intro to IFS class, whenever I'm teaching and there's steps to it, I always say there's a pre-step one, there's always a pre-step. Yeah, yeah know, clinicians want to know what to do. What to do what? Yes, and the pre-step is where are you? Yep where are you in that window of tolerance? Where are you in your own regulatory system? Where are you? Are you in your capacity to hold sacred space for other?
Speaker 2:where are you. And then there is that, and to me, an ethical responsibility to take care of your stuff, because you have a responsibility to hold that space and be in that space. So does that resonate? Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I mean yes.
Speaker 2:Always that pre-phase. Always.
Speaker 1:Always the step before the step, because you're a human who is implementing these things.
Speaker 2:Yes, well said. And to implement these things you know, clear it up so you can implement it. Clearly, good deal.
Speaker 1:Clearly, and you know kindly and ethically, and you know genuinely, like all the, all the things, all the things compassionately, authentically.
Speaker 2:My clients are so skilled at sensing dishonesty for lack of a better word. They're a survival mechanism they have. They're a super detector about something inauthentic. When I'm inauthentic, for whatever reason, I feel like Barbara is something wrong and if I'm not truthful with them. I'm losing that clientic, for whatever reason. Yeah, barbara is something wrong, and if I'm not truthful with them, I'm losing that client. Yep, that's right. So be real, have the courage to be real. Yeah, and then the goodness.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh, there are so many things, and now you're going to have, you know, all these new clients, cause everybody just wants to, everybody just wants to, everybody just wants to learn and grow with you. And I know you can only practice in Colorado but anyway you would love to have people know how to find, how to find you. So how do people find you?
Speaker 2:the easiest way is barbracouncilscom and my website. My business is Creative and Caring Counseling, but that's such a mouthful, so I also bought barbacouncilscom and from there you're going to find my LinkedIn. My Facebook page is pretty active, my LinkedIn is active, all my information is there and I only practice in Colorado, but I do offer intensives. So if somebody wanted to come to Colorado, visit with me for two or three days and then go head up to the mountains just an hour away, it could be a fun thing. It would definitely be a fun thing. Or if there's an agency or company that wants me to come to them and do a training I love traveling lately, it's so much fun. So I'm happy to come to you for a training not therapy, but for training and happy to do that. But barbracouncilscom is the easiest way in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Barbara, I just, oh, I just can't say it enough how much I just love you and the work you're doing and love getting to spend time with you. So just thank you for saying yes, for being here, for being brave in the many, many ways that you show up, not just here but for your clients too. So thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Let's heal the world. One breath at a time, you know. One brave breath at a time. Let's just begin healing the world. That's what I think we're doing right now. Truly thank you for having me back. So much fun. You're doing so much important work. So thank you, Beth, I really appreciate you.
Speaker 1:I love that and we're going to do brave breaths together. Yes, I love it.
Speaker 2:Listener. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 1:You are also a part of our sort of gratitude list today, so thank you for listening and until next time stay safe and stay well, listener, ciao.
